Rally Discussion and Bar Talk Thread

[Francis44]

Interesting remarks of Carlos Tavares abotu Stellantis getting back in the WRC to Autosport PT.

Interesting discussion as he speaks freely and more openly to Autosport PT, them being a portuguese editor:

"Q.It's a topic that has been on the agenda for fans of the WRC, which is in such trouble, that's why the question was 'out of the blue': “Looking at the rallies, what the WRC needed to do for Stellantis to seriously invest in the Queen category of the World Rally Championship?

This is Carlos Tavares, CEO of Stellantis: “There are several aspects that are difficult, the first is that obviously the new regulation, with hybrids and all that, only had one consequence, which was to increase costs.”

“I don’t know if the image of rallies has become greener because of hybrids, the only thing we know for sure is that it has become much more expensive.”

“Much more expensive and no one knows that they are hybrids, we know, but no one else knows, therefore, the green value of that was marginal because the CO2 emissions are not from the cars, but from all the logistics that go around it.”

Lancia Ypsilon Rally4 HF
“Just like in Formula 1 or any other motorsport, it’s not the cars that make the CO2, they do very little, what does is all the logistics around it.”

“And so I think regulation has taken this to a dead end. So now it's going to sink, like every motorsport where there's inflation, then it explodes, it sinks, then another one starts, it sinks, it's always like that. And the cycles are three to five years.”

“So, they will have to think again, reduce costs as was done with the WEC, which initially also exploded, it was at 200, 300 million, went back to 50, is now at 100, 150 million again, and until it puts a budget cap on the WEC, that will blow up again.

Despite having a fantastic cast at the moment…”

“And that's the problem, it brought little credibility, green (ed., hybrids in the WRC), and a lot of cost, so we're going to have to rethink everything. And until this is rethought, Stellantis will not go there (WRC), at all.”

“As you know, Lancia will now return in Rally4 and benefit from all the work that has been done by Peugeot and Opel, because the chassis are more or less the same, and we have more than 70% market share across the board. the amateur rally sport, with Opel and Peugeot, we have more than 70% of starts in rallies and now, we are going to reinforce with Lancia, and let's start there, the cars are very competitive, also in WRC2 the Citroën is also very competitive ”.

“We're going to go out there and see how things go, but we have no vocation, in fact it's an ethical issue, we can't spend a lot of money, hundreds of millions of euros on motorsport, when we're asking our factory workers to go to work. euro cent hunting.

They are chasing the penny, and you cannot, ethically, spend hundreds of millions of euros on motorsport because they don't understand the problem of marketing and the return on marketing.

Which is real, but has its limits…

And, therefore, if we don't take care to control the costs of motor sport, it will explode, that's what always happens. It goes all the way up, inflation out of control, it explodes, it goes back up, it explodes. And that’s what’s difficult to manage…”

In between the lines you can read that they give f*** all about the cars being hybrids, they just want them to be cheaper.

[Eli]

Interesting remarks of Carlos Tavares abotu Stellantis getting back in the WRC to Autosport PT.

Interesting discussion as he speaks freely and more openly to Autosport PT, them being a portuguese editor:

"Q.It's a topic that has been on the agenda for fans of the WRC, which is in such trouble, that's why the question was 'out of the blue': “Looking at the rallies, what the WRC needed to do for Stellantis to seriously invest in the Queen category of the World Rally Championship?

This is Carlos Tavares, CEO of Stellantis: “There are several aspects that are difficult, the first is that obviously the new regulation, with hybrids and all that, only had one consequence, which was to increase costs.”

“I don’t know if the image of rallies has become greener because of hybrids, the only thing we know for sure is that it has become much more expensive.”

“Much more expensive and no one knows that they are hybrids, we know, but no one else knows, therefore, the green value of that was marginal because the CO2 emissions are not from the cars, but from all the logistics that go around it.”

Lancia Ypsilon Rally4 HF
“Just like in Formula 1 or any other motorsport, it’s not the cars that make the CO2, they do very little, what does is all the logistics around it.”

“And so I think regulation has taken this to a dead end. So now it's going to sink, like every motorsport where there's inflation, then it explodes, it sinks, then another one starts, it sinks, it's always like that. And the cycles are three to five years.”

“So, they will have to think again, reduce costs as was done with the WEC, which initially also exploded, it was at 200, 300 million, went back to 50, is now at 100, 150 million again, and until it puts a budget cap on the WEC, that will blow up again.

Despite having a fantastic cast at the moment…”

“And that's the problem, it brought little credibility, green (ed., hybrids in the WRC), and a lot of cost, so we're going to have to rethink everything. And until this is rethought, Stellantis will not go there (WRC), at all.”

“As you know, Lancia will now return in Rally4 and benefit from all the work that has been done by Peugeot and Opel, because the chassis are more or less the same, and we have more than 70% market share across the board. the amateur rally sport, with Opel and Peugeot, we have more than 70% of starts in rallies and now, we are going to reinforce with Lancia, and let's start there, the cars are very competitive, also in WRC2 the Citroën is also very competitive ”.

“We're going to go out there and see how things go, but we have no vocation, in fact it's an ethical issue, we can't spend a lot of money, hundreds of millions of euros on motorsport, when we're asking our factory workers to go to work. euro cent hunting.

They are chasing the penny, and you cannot, ethically, spend hundreds of millions of euros on motorsport because they don't understand the problem of marketing and the return on marketing.

Which is real, but has its limits…

And, therefore, if we don't take care to control the costs of motor sport, it will explode, that's what always happens. It goes all the way up, inflation out of control, it explodes, it goes back up, it explodes. And that’s what’s difficult to manage…”

In between the lines you can read that they give f*** all about the cars being hybrids, they just want them to be cheaper.

And they’re also pointing fingers towards the work of the promoter (more like demoter) of the sport…

[240RS]

The new points system doesn't seem to have changed the value placed on an outright win in the minds of most drivers. Strategies appear to form based on Saturday placings more than anything.

Only Thierry Neuville, at the Monte, has bagged a "maximum" (30pts). Next highest is the Rally Poland winner Kalle Rovanpera (27). Both were under some pressure all through, which partially explains their high tallies.

The lowest winning scores were recorded by Esapekka Lappi (19) in Sweden and Rovanpera in Kenya (20). Clearly, if drivers find themselves having to sacrifice some points for a guaranteed win, they will.

Only Thierry Neuville in Croatia and Seb Ogier in Sardinia have led on Saturday night and failed to top the time sheets at the end of the event.

Kalle's haul of 11pts in Sweden along with Ott Tanak's similar score are the highest points earned by a competitor failing to register points on Saturday.

[mknight]

The new points system doesn't seem to have changed the value placed on an outright win in the minds of most drivers. Strategies appear to form based on Saturday placings more than anything.

I get the exactly opposite idea impression tbh. And you writ ethe yourself in the middle of your post.


Drivers are totally aware of the new system and adapt to it (see Tanak in Sardinia and his comments on the "fight" vs Ogier).

The only ones that did not adapt are:

- Commentators and Rally TV crew, specially funny when they are commenting some pointless 5-7 place changes on Sunday. The worst part is that they are extremely inconsistent in this, half the time they talk about the overall like its really important and half the time they talk about the saturday + sunday points.
- Some part time drivers (mostly Ogier) cause at least individual points dont matter to them.

[WRCStan]

In between the lines you can read that they give f*** all about the cars being hybrids, they just want them to be cheaper.

Yet still 'green', before anybody yells the obvious. That needs to be rethought.

Found a link for this: https://www.autosport.pt/ralis/wrc/c...-a-stellantis/

[mknight]

I'd read it differently.

He also complaints that even though the cars are hybrid there is basically no way to tell most of the time (specially not on stages).The way the rules were set up the hybrid part is really only visible in service park.

I remember how excited we were before the first race how we will see the boost and see different strategies on applying it and driving styles etc.

Then we got this automatic blinking stuff from the telemetry that gets boring after 2 mins and whos effect you can't follow.

[Steve Boyd]

Strategies appear to form based on Saturday placings more than anything.

It's useless trying to have a strategy for anything other than Saturday points under the current system.

You can ask a team #2 or #3 to drop back & let the team #1 lead on Saturday night for individual championship placings and that will work if the gaps are right. Toyota could have done that in Poland if Evans had been 2nd with a manageable gap to 3rd on Saturday.

Sunday only has 4 stages (usually) and the last one is the power stage with additional points. How do you apply a Sunday strategy? You can ask a driver to throw away his power stage points to let a team leader win Leg3 but when is there ever a workable gap to the next car on Sunday times after only 3 stages before the power stage?

Overall positions at the end of a rally are irrelevant for WRC points so there's no point in applying team orders for any crew to finish 1st at the end of the event.

[doubled1978]

I'd read it differently.

He also complaints that even though the cars are hybrid there is basically no way to tell most of the time (specially not on stages).The way the rules were set up the hybrid part is really only visible in service park.

I remember how excited we were before the first race how we will see the boost and see different strategies on applying it and driving styles etc.

Then we got this automatic blinking stuff from the telemetry that gets boring after 2 mins and whos effect you can't follow.

The Hybrid WRC cars are completely pointless, honestly they could do away with the whole hybrid system, put a sticker on the car that says hybrid, and nobody outside the service park would ever know it wasn’t.
The Sesks car showed that the hybrid doesn’t add anything to the show, and even with less overall power and the same weight, it was competitive.
The pointlessness of Hybrid has just been highlighted by BMW. I’m lucky enough to have an M5 Competition, and the dealer just contacted me about the new M5 model which is a hybrid, it has approx. 100bhp more than mine, but is 570kg heavier, and slower!!!!
That isn’t an answer to a question anyone is asking except bureaucrats…hopefully someone sees sense on this net zero madness soon.

[240RS]

It's useless trying to have a strategy for anything other than Saturday points under the current system.

Overall positions at the end of a rally are irrelevant for WRC points so there's no point in applying team orders for any crew to finish 1st at the end of the event.

I probably failed in communicating my thoughts clearly and exhaustively in the initial post.

By now, I would have imagined one or two drivers would have adopted a measured strategy on Friday/Saturday, preserving softs, for example, then going on a full Sunday attack! Targeting, for instance, 10-12 pts on Saturday before going for a full complement on Sunday.

Or a driver with a road disadvantage on the first proper day settling for a limited risk Friday, hoping to pick places from those retiring or dropping down the order through problems, with an eye on a big Saturday push when a better road position allows.

Obviously this may go against their natural instincts, but with the current points system not favouring outright winners it may be only a matter of time before we see someone in the title hunt without a single win.

[Eli]

The Hybrid WRC cars are completely pointless, honestly they could do away with the whole hybrid system, put a sticker on the car that says hybrid, and nobody outside the service park would ever know it wasn’t.
The Sesks car showed that the hybrid doesn’t add anything to the show, and even with less overall power and the same weight, it was competitive.
The pointlessness of Hybrid has just been highlighted by BMW. I’m lucky enough to have an M5 Competition, and the dealer just contacted me about the new M5 model which is a hybrid, it has approx. 100bhp more than mine, but is 570kg heavier, and slower!!!!
That isn’t an answer to a question anyone is asking except bureaucrats…hopefully someone sees sense on this net zero madness soon.

First of all, you’re veryyy lucky for having an M5 Competition, you definitely dodged a bullet without having a plug-in hybrid system in your M5; Second, at least for the time being, the M2,M3,M4 & M8 are still pure ICE. Third, you would think that with all the hype of the WRC going (Plug-In) hybrid we would get more information, but I guess like everything else in the WRC it’s top secret and no can no anything about it.