Rally Discussion and Bar Talk Thread

[Mirek]

Manus are creating the 'demand' for SUVs by pandering to the human instinct that bigger is better.

(If you take two cars to a tribe that's never seen a car, they will choose the biggest of the two.)

It's a crazy situation - manufacturers should be doing everything to educate people that lighter and smaller cars are better for economy and for the planet.

It's not that simple. The main thing which goes against the small light cars is the regulations. They are the reason why people prefer to buy large cars and also why manufacturers prefer to sell large cars (manus heavily advertising large cars is a consequence not a reason). It's a paradox but it's true.

The past decades brough two main development areas - safety and emissions. Year after year the regulations have been stricter. Every single car first got mandatory ABS, later ESP, than another stuff and than another. Same goes about the development in emissions. All of that costs money. A lot of money and what is important the mandatory stuff costs basically the same money to develop and to produce regardless the size of the vehicle. So the situation got to a point where these fixed expenses got so high that it was no more profitable to sell any car under certain relatively high price tag. Here goes the reasson why the manus like large cars like SUVs because they can sell them for price which gives them good profit even when they need to cover the expenses of the latest regulations. And it's also the reason why small cars got so expensive.

It's a paradox but less strict regulations about safety and emissions could actually help if they were accompanied with another measures like weight limits. The CO2 emissions are a function of consumption and the real consumption is mainly about weight and drag. Also cheaper smaller cars would likely lead to overall younger car park in most of the countries. Novadays we have great new cars but huge percentage of people still drives 20-30 years old cars and they don't give a shit about some emission limits.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

That sounds like a compelling argument.

But then how come many manufacturers still can and do sell small cars ?

These are just the best-sellers...

Toyota Yaris
Honda Jazz
Renault Clio
Vauxhall Corsa
Peugeot 208
Volkswagen Polo
Hyundai i10
SEAT Ibiza
Dacia Sandero
Kia Picanto
Škoda Fabia
Audi A1
Fiat New 500
Mini Hatch
Renault Zoe
Suzuki Swift
Volkswagen Up
Mazda 2

There's clearly still a substantial market for these cars, so it seems to me that those no longer making them, and just selling and promoting SUVs, are doing so purely for the extra profit to be made.

[Jarek Z]

Yesterday I had a yearly technical verification of my Focus at a local Ford dealer. While I was waiting for my car I had a look at their car showroom. I didn't find any small car. The smallest one was Puma and the cheapest one was 23 300 €. It's ridiculous. I had a talk with one of the employees and he told me that not only Ford gets rid of the small cars. He said that soon Skoda will stop selling Fabia and VW will stop selling Golf (although I'm not sure if I can believe him).

[Eli]

Yesterday I had a yearly technical verification of my Focus at a local Ford dealer. While I was waiting for my car I had a look at their car showroom. I didn't find any small car. The smallest one was Puma and the cheapest one was 23 300 €. It's ridiculous. I had a talk with one of the employees and he told me that not only Ford gets rid of the small cars. He said that soon Skoda will stop selling Fabia and VW will stop selling Golf (although I'm not sure if I can believe him).

Well the VW Polo will probably live until 2030: https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volksw...pdates-planned

And since the Fabia is on the same platform (& the newer car of the two) it would be safe to assume that it would also live until then. Mind you the Polo got it’s facelift back in April 2021 & the new Fabia was introduced the following month in May 2021, so I think talking about their deaths is premature. Based on that I think the Golf would also live until 2030. Truth is, no one really knows what’s gonna go with the electrification process and how long it will actually take to phase out these cars. Yes, I’m aware by 2035 Europe will stop selling ICE cars but if history has taught us anything time and again is that things can always change, and nothing stays permanent. So even if we think this and that will happen in the future, we’re no fortune tellers and we have no way of actually knowing what will happen in the car industry.

[Mirek]

Well the VW Polo will probably live until 2030: https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volksw...pdates-planned

And since the Fabia is on the same platform (& the newer car of the two) it would be safe to assume that it would also live until then. Mind you the Polo got it’s facelift back in April 2021 & the new Fabia was introduced the following month in May 2021, so I think talking about their deaths is premature. Based on that I think the Golf would also live until 2030. Truth is, no one really knows what’s gonna go with the electrification process and how long it will actually take to phase out these cars. Yes, I’m aware by 2035 Europe will stop selling ICE cars but if history has taught us anything time and again is that things can always change, and nothing stays permanent. So even if we think this and that will happen in the future, we’re no fortune tellers and we have no way of actually knowing what will happen in the car industry.

Škoda was selected to be responsible for the ICE cars within VAG in near future (the new Passat was already developed by Škoda as a variant of new Superb) so they will keep producing ICE cars for some time.

Anyway it's no secret that Fabia never was very profitable for Škoda. They always made most of the profit from Octavia and later I believe that Kodiaq must have been a gold mine for them.

@Jarek: Yes, Ford stopped sellling Fiesta in Europe.

I often travel to Bulgaria and it's good to see how EU looks far from Brussels. From what I could see there are virtually no small new cars there. The only new cars I meet there are few big expensive SUVs like Porsche or Mercedes or even some Teslas but all the common people drive old used cars brought from the West.

[Jarek Z]

@Jarek: Yes, Ford stopped sellling Fiesta in Europe.

Yes, I know that. And they will soon stop selling Focus either. But that means that the only cars available in the showroom were either big or super expensive - Ford Focus Station Wagon in RS version, Mustang, Puma, Kuga, Bronco (price: over 100 000 €) and a couple of Transits. There were no cars for "normal people".

[focus206]

Anyway it's no secret that Fabia never was very profitable for Škoda. They always made most of the profit from Octavia and later I believe that Kodiaq must have been a gold mine for them.

Really? I thought it was one of the best sellers, here in my zone of Italy Fabia Mk3 is a pretty common car, Octavia is quite rare. It's full of hatchbacks on the smaller size here, but I guess elsewhere is different.

[Franky]

I've gone through the new car options in Estonia and for me it was a nightmare. Was looking for something that's around 4.5m, at least 400l of boot space, decent fuel economy for city and an hatchback or station wagon/estate. As long as I can sit low, I prefer to be close to the ground.

Most cars with 400+ liter boot are at least 4,6m long. The biggest exception would be the Dacia Jogger but with that I wouldn't even know how to classify it. Size of the cars is one thing but when you go for hybrid, then the price tag makes you think what you get. Toyotas are relatively cheap but I don't like them. Top trim PHEVs are 45k+, the Focus mild hybrid is around 33k. Not convinced about PHEVs really, would rather go for a two car, ICE and electric, route then. And as I've understood mild hybrids are a hit and miss. Heard the new Subaru's are awful when it comes to using hybrid. In the end ended up choosing between Dacia Jogger, felt absurd to even consider a Dacia, and Honda Civic hybrid. I didn't test drive the Dacia but when top trim is 25k, you can't expect anything surprising. I test drove the Civic twice, first time about 100km and second time an hour in the city, seeing if I find a reason not to get it.

Civic has an unusual power train. The sales guys kept telling it has a two liter engine but it's effectively a generator as most of the time it's the electric motors driving you and the engine engages directly with single gear somewhere over 70 kmh. Haven't researched too much into the exact dark magic that goes on there. I liked how it drove, from taking it easy, to mixed driving to pushing it as much as I dared - think it could had gone faster than I dared. On the two times I drove it, the fuel economy was 5.1, 4.7 and 4.0. First one was over 60kms and pushing hard and casual driving. Second was three heavy accelerations to 150 or so and then city stop and go style. Last one was non rush hour city traffic. Anyway, now trying to haggle down the price as the top trim is about 41k.

Currently got a soon 11 year old Impreza hatch. If most of the driving wouldn't be in the city, then would continue with it as it has even gotten me through 4-5 hours of snow storm in full load without any issues. But modern times, need to go for something that likes to drink less.

Sorry for derailing your small car discussion with my head ache of choosing a new small family car

[Steve Boyd]

The trend of cars getting bigger & bigger has been continuing for decades.

The current Polo is considerably larger than the original Golf.

I have a current (just discontinued) model Fiesta. It is the same size as the Mk4 Cortina I bought 45 years ago. There was the Escort & the Fiesta that were smaller than the Cortina in those days.

That's why there's no room on the roads in towns. The cars have all got bigger but the roads are all still the same size . . .

No idea what I'm likely to buy next as the Fiesta is about as big as I can get through the garage door - 50 mm clearance each side. Might be time to forget modern cars & start looking at classics.

Maybe it's time for cars to be taxed on their width!

[Mirek]

Really? I thought it was one of the best sellers, here in my zone of Italy Fabia Mk3 is a pretty common car, Octavia is quite rare. It's full of hatchbacks on the smaller size here, but I guess elsewhere is different.

I meant that the profit from a single sold car was much lower with Fabia than with Octavia or Kodiaq.