Maybe they'll live like people of Transnistria.... ? ?? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz
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Maybe they'll live like people of Transnistria.... ? ?? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz
[quote=gadjo_dilo]Maybe they'll live like people of Transnistria.... ? ?? :confused:[/quote:320at5gk]Quote:
Originally Posted by "Rudy Tamasz":320at5gk
I don't know if the 2014 season is going to be good enough, but in the long term Russians will vacation there for sure. Abkhazia, another site of a controversial conflict involving Russia and a neighbor country, relies a lot on Russian tourism. This surprises me as I am not sure if I'd want to have a vacation in a possible war zone, but the wikipedia claims they get 300,000 visitors a year. Abkhazia have very beautiful location, and so does Crimea. Unlike Abkhazia, which is formally not a Russian territory, if Crimea becomes a Russian province, it will receive quite a bit of financial investment, from the government and private investors (Russians of course). The Crimean administration already said that they will not seize any property regardless of who owns it, except for military installation.
[quote=gadjo_dilo]Maybe they'll live like people of Transnistria.... ? ?? :confused:[/quote:3bi2k09p]Quote:
Originally Posted by "Rudy Tamasz":3bi2k09p
Which is pretty miserable. Is it worth fighting for, then?
Russia's financial stand is getting worse in both public and private sector. I'm not sure it is realistic to expect Russia come and flood Crimea with money. Russia already has quite a number of depressed regions to support.Quote:
Originally Posted by zako85
Then, we'll have yet to see whether Russian tourists will risk their safety traveling to an unrecognized region by air, as Russia has no land border with Crimea. If they really want to have vacation close to home, they might prefer that very Abkhazia or Sochi. Tourism market is a tough one and Crimeans should not take their niche on it for granted.
Airshifter, once again, please answer me what is the basis for your fear mongering claim of the upcoming ethnic cleansing in Crimea as you have not backed that claim in any of your posts. Yes, the people at the end of the shotgun barrel, as you say, are the Ukrainian military personnel, and the shotgun is there not because Russians want to cleanse the Crimea of Ukrainians but because Ukrainian military may oppose Russians. So there is a HUGE difference between this and a prelude for "ethnic cleansing". Ethnic cleansing is when a group of people goes out and kills or displaces ALL _locals_ that belong to a different group. Is this something I have to spell out for you? Do you also know that there are thousands of ethnic Ukrainians who are living in Crimea without shotguns pointing at them and also that among the ranks of Ukrainian military personnel there are many ethnic Russians, so Russian guns are pointing at them as well? The Ukrainians have also received offers to defect to the Russian military, which isn't consistent with your claims as normally in such cases you don't make the other side offers to become part of your army.Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by zako85
So if the same happens to the same group of people at the end of a shotgun barrel, this somehow avoids the issue? I'm sorry, but your argument contains double standards of gross proportion if it leads you to think that legal means subjects people to issues or human rights, while illegal means do not.
As evidenced by the puny investment in the 2014 Sochi Olympics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz
What's wrong with air travel within the air space of the Russian federation? And besides, just yesterday I read that some Russians already proposed to build a bridge over the Kerch strait. My understanding is that there is also a rail car ferry, so you could just take train. Admittedly, I have no idea what's the tourism situation in Crimea right now, but being Putin's and Russian nationalists cause celebre, they will find money for the bridge and other infrastructure.Quote:
Then, we'll have yet to see whether Russian tourists will risk their safety traveling to an unrecognized region by air, as Russia has no land border with Crimea. If they really want to have vacation close to home, they might prefer that very Abkhazia or Sochi. Tourism market is a tough one and Crimeans should not take their niche on it for granted.
Because, as already previously discussed, this has been Russian land for two centuries, populated by Russians, and home to Russian Black Sea military base? Why fair now? When you divorce with someone, then it's a good time to start splitting up the property. Ukraine just said to Russia, we don't want to have anything with you, so what did you expect Russians to do? Wait until Ukraine becomes NATO members and wait for decades until Crimea is transferred to Russia by "legal means", which of course then could never happen?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
What you've just mentioned is a part of the problem, not a solution. You spend $44 billion on the Olympics, you no longer have it. You can't have a cake and eat it at the same time. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by zako85
I completely agree with you zako, well put.Quote:
Originally Posted by zako85
I for one have always thought that Hitler was long unfairly criticised for his moves to reintegrate the Sudetenland and Western Poland, areas with hundreds of years of German history, culture and heritage, back into Germany. Also I don't think there was any better time to ensure that the ethnic Germans living in Soviet territory would have their rights protected and be freed from Russian persecution than July 1941 when the USSR was weakest.
Armed invasion and annexation is indeed the only proper way to sort out injustices like this. International diplomacy and 'legal means' are indeed tools for the weak and to be looked down upon.
Likewise I'm sure you'll join me in fully supporting China re-absorbing Tibet by force with the long history of Chinese links to the country. Hopefully you'll also heartily endorse their subtle efforts to deal with those Tibetans who somehow fail to see the inherent wisdom in this occupation.
I'm not sure things will work out well for Russia in the future though. Not only will the general cost of doing business rise with increased interest rates, reduced access to foreign markets and capital and restricted travel for certain Russians, this move in Crimea will only reinforce the perception amongst its neighbours that rapid membership of NATO and closer ties with the EU are the only way to go. Russians only understand hard power, in this case I feel that soft power would have been more useful and would be less counterproductive.
Firstly I'd suggest you look further into accepted definitions of ethnic cleansing, and at the same time adjust your attitude of superior intelligence. Per the UN basic definition, ethnic cleansing is ""rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group." It does not imply or require killing or removing all such people, it includes assimilating them into another cultural group.Quote:
Originally Posted by zako85
In this case the military action is doing just this... essentially giving the Ukrainian military the option to become Russian military or go - assimilation or displacement. The referendum being forced is doing the same to the civilian population... become us under threat and intimidation already displayed. It seems quite similar to the elections allowed by Saddam, intended to allow only those casting a certain vote to do so without intimidation.
While it seems you are carrying an attitude that nobody else can possibly understand these things, you are in fact overlooking gross and obvious violations of human rights, international laws, and the freedoms of choice that should be given to the people in Crimea. And these things are actually already happening, and they are not based on the predictions of a crystal ball. The huge difference between the two is that one is reality, the other is speculation.
I have above given a clear example of the ethnic cleansing already taking place, and by what means. Your argument seems to be that such actions are warranted and that the legal process is what people should fear. I would suggest that the legal process is what Putin fears, and what the people deserve.