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WRC mainclass from 2027

Yeah but M-Sport did make money out of Focus WRC, Fiesta WRC/WRC17/R5/R3/R2/Rally2/Rally3, Puma Rally1 (one car, the rest rented). They field JWRC for how many years already? Get multiple projects from Dakar, Bentley, that electric Van. Also competing in WRC probably gave them somehow profit, as who would doing that if nothing would be payed back.

Lancia just started with Rally6, Rally4 and Rally2 project. Put their money not only in WRC2, but also ERC, Italian championship and various other ones and their brand. I think itcs crucial for them to go slowly rather than going big time and fail and also could sign a death certificate doing it badly.

I would be careful too, even if new promoter is signed. Nobody guarantee it will work, not even Eric, no matter what he is promising. Maybe those "9-10" interests" are waiting what 2027 will be and then they will decide if it's worth it, or not.

Of course this waiting for anybody else to burn can go forever, but it's FIA who fucked up big time with delaying, and those yes, no, yes, no decisions recently and all just lost trust in them.
 
Yup I guess Lancia still isn't ready to fight on the top level, they need to get the customer racing going first.

Skoda doesn't want to pay for the factory program, but I can imagine that Toksport will bite the bullet, pay for the program and rent the cars. But imo it isn't very likely.
 
Kenneth said:
Yup I guess Lancia still isn't ready to fight on the top level, they need to get the customer racing going first.
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Unlikely. If they don't get the kit for 27, they'll only have 28 left, and they need a WRC27 for 29 onwards which they're apparently reluctant to do. If Stellantis and Skoda give up the Rally2 market in all the championships, which they should do, it's nice room for some new constructors who will have to compete in the constructors. Can see both downsizing operations over the next few years.
Kenneth said:
Skoda doesn't want to pay for the factory program, but I can imagine that Toksport will bite the bullet, pay for the program and rent the cars. But imo it isn't very likely.
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Not gonna happen, they didn't construct anything and their cars will lack the power of the WRC27s. Pointless exercise.
 
Lancia is owned by Stellantis who own Citroen and thus have massive recent WRC history. If Stellantis wanted to, they could come back and enter WRC for the full season.

'Lancia' said when they announced the Ypsilon Rally2 that their aim was to return to the top level of rallying. Now crying that they can only do a part-season and leave us with just Toyota and M-Sport is pretty poor.
 
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Fast-Eddie said:
Lancia is owned by Stellantis who own Citroen and thus have massive recent WRC history. If Stellantis wanted to, they could come back and enter WRC for the full season.
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This is the final year of the World Rally Championship for Manufacturers after which Lancia will be locked in as the most successful. Next year a new era begins with the World Rally Championship for Constructors. Everybody is aware that it's not a manufacturer's series anymore, WRC has no road relevance etc, there's no real reason for why they would want to.

Fast-Eddie said:
'Lancia' said when they announced the Ypsilon Rally2 that their aim was to return to the top level of rallying. Now crying that they can only do a part-season and leave us with just Toyota and M-Sport is pretty poor.
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But they will return to the top level because the higher class has been mothballed. They are correct in that regard.
 
I would assume that the Toyota domination also plays a part. Why should any manu embarrass themselves against them? One would need supreme commitment, years of high and stable investment. And for what? With this kind of investment they rather show up in F1 / WEC / DAKAR
 
Why would WRC copy every other sport? It doesn't have identity crisis, just bunch of crazy, without common sense people calling shots. WRC or rallying on basic terms have this unique way that no other sport have, and it should be presented as a it is:

-racing on public roads, roads we use every day and roads which are usually intended for proper 4x4 vehicles.
-rather than racing head to head, racing for best possible time (fastest)
-racing on every possible surface (soft/rough gravel, snow and ice, tarmac and whatever is left of it or patches of it, concrete, mud...)
-racing in every possible weather (snowy, sunny, rain, fog)
-racing in every possible time during the day (morning, afternoon, evening or night)
-racing in extreme conditions (-20 or less, +40 or more, heavy fog, heavy rain, heavy snow, icy, dirt on road, rocks...)
-during crews hit the troubles, fans are allowed to help them to get back on their "feet"
-almost every sector of stage can be spectated by fans
-crazy jumps, drifting, dramatic crashes, incidents, flatouts, incredible sound
-you can race the world champion or stars of this sport
-crews trying to fix their cars during free time in case of troubles on the side of the road and if you are lucky, can catch that
-you can drive behind the crews or meet them practically very closely

Did I miss something? You can add it up if you think of something else.

I believe that this sport have this unique things that it doesn't need any BoP or anything that other sport have to promote it better.
 
I absolutely agree with you, but from a (not sports car or jeep) manu perspective:

-racing on public roads, roads we use every day and roads which are usually intended for proper 4x4 vehicles. (I don't want to be associated with street and dirt racing)

-rather than racing head to head, racing for best possible time (fastest) (I would rather see overtaking my rival manu on track and make a nice photo with both in view)

-racing on every possible surface (soft/rough gravel, snow and ice, tarmac and whatever is left of it or patches of it, concrete, mud...) (How can I sell more cars with dirt and ice footage? My customers drive on the road)

-racing in every possible weather (snowy, sunny, rain, fog) (Fine by me, as long as you make sure to produce nice footage of my cars & sponsors dear promoter)

-racing in every possible time during the day (morning, afternoon, evening or night) (Fine by me, as long as you make sure to produce nice footage of my cars & sponsors dear promoter)

-racing in extreme conditions (-20 or less, +40 or more, heavy fog, heavy rain, heavy snow, icy, dirt on road, rocks...) (Does not matter to me one bit, my customers drive in europe on the road)

-during crews hit the troubles, fans are allowed to help them to get back on their "feet" (Everyone can see my crashed cars and make footage of it without oversight? And upload it to the internet?! I want to control the narrative, not some fans)

-almost every sector of stage can be spectated by fans (Fine by me, but make sure it creates the maximum amount of exposure for me and my sponsors)

-crazy jumps, drifting, dramatic crashes, incidents, flatouts, incredible sound (I don't want to be associated with that as an european family car manu)

-you can race the world champion or stars of this sport (Fine by me, but the cars have the focus still, not the drivers, yes?)

-crews trying to fix their cars during free time in case of troubles on the side of the road and if you are lucky, can catch that (And everyone can film that? You cannot be serious)

-you can drive behind the crews or meet them practically very closely (Cool, how can I sell cars to them?)

---

We might be at a time where rally is fundamentally imcompatible with manufacturers, with the exception of some crazy ones like Toyota. Maybe it needs to get changed into a team based sport (the idea of "tuners" is not half bad in theory). For for this to work you need a budget cap & potential a BoP
 
Ferranis said:
We might be at a time where rally is fundamentally imcompatible with manufacturers, with the exception of some crazy ones like Toyota. Maybe it needs to get changed into a team based sport (the idea of "tuners" is not half bad in theory).
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Might? Maybe?

Toyota is the only truly global marque. You'll find them on all continents, in the jungle, city, desert, mountains... nobody else comes close.
 
Ferranis said:
-rather than racing head to head, racing for best possible time (fastest) (I would rather see overtaking my rival manu on track and make a nice photo with both in view)
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Apart from TCR championships, a Peugeot hypercar overtaking a Toyota hypercar in a WEC race won't matter for selling some 208 at dealerships, it's a brand image matter. Also having your car going fast on roads, covered in dirt or snow is a brand image matter, even more if that car resembles an actual car that Peugeot sells (okay, it's Rally4 category, so we can't expect that much).
Yes, customers drive on asphalt European roads, but they also don't drive Le Mans spaceships.

Ferranis said:
We might be at a time where rally is fundamentally imcompatible with manufacturers, with the exception of some crazy ones like Toyota. Maybe it needs to get changed into a team based sport (the idea of "tuners" is not half bad in theory). For for this to work you need a budget cap & potential a BoP
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What would the tuners (so private teams that build a funny protoype kinda from the ground up, we're not even talking about privateers like TGS running a Fabia) answer to the questions you've answered on behalf of manufacturers? They have no reason to do any of that, if not "to race" and hope to sell a couple of prototypes.
And we expect them to soon field a 2 car team for ALL rounds of the championship, maybe with a larger calendar which will possibly include USA, China, India, Antarctica and Mars. Sounds great for private European teams.
On the positive side, the less teams there are that build prototypes and commit to a championship, the sooner this concept might get binned.
 
Ferranis said:
I absolutely agree with you, but from a (not sports car or jeep) manu perspective:
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I honestly believe Car-brand participation in nowaday's Motorsport is more about stuff like some kind of Tax relief (FIA - EU political deals about Carbon Neutral goals, Hybrid, EVs, etc) and money laundering (via their Motorsport Division and Operation Partners) than actual road car sells and "Marketing" (P.R. and RoI), like it was when they used to say "Race on Monday, Sell on Sunday". Does anyone here knows more about this?

Maybe not liike thaaaaat, but something along the lines. I still see no "marketing" reasons for why manufacturers entered Formula E or WEC, for example. (And WRC too, lest be honest). FE has like, 60k views on Youtube highlights? WEC is higly praised (which is cool, dont get me wrong) but they also can have less views than some F2 and F3 races on Youtube (and I KNOW Youtube is not the best metric, but try to follow my thoughts). So if it was for MARKETING, you would be better of painting a car in F2 than building a whole program (developing ,testing, fees, rebuild, paying salaries, crew, traveling, social media....)

Or even worst... Dodge got an OMSE build electric SUV, added their logo on the car, got Lia Block to film some donuts and BOOOM, milions and milions of views. EVEN CHEAPER. I think its not about "marketing" and what people will 'think about the brands' anymore. Its more on the money side, somehow. I may be wrong, but I doubt theres no stuff like that going on behind close doors.

And if so... what could WRC offer? Hybrids didnt worked. High speed cars in the middle of the forest are a NO NO (politically speaking). People in dangerous places watching flying cars (NOOOPE). Am I completely off on this one view??
 
Ivlian said:
I honestly believe Car-brand participation in nowaday's Motorsport is more about stuff like some kind of Tax relief (FIA - EU political deals about Carbon Neutral goals, Hybrid, EVs, etc) and money laundering (via their Motorsport Division and Operation Partners) than actual road car sells and "Marketing" (P.R. and RoI), like it was when they used to say "Race on Monday, Sell on Sunday". Does anyone here knows more about this?
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There's material for about 10 PhD theses in the answers to your question soup there. Few thoughts...

'Win on Sunday, sell on Monday' was itself always a marketing gimmick selling motorsport. But there's still two ways of looking at it, branding or product.
Cars are mainly short term leased consumer products for working age people, not the considered investments that once needed meticulous maintenance and a loan from a bank. Even dealers would rather broker finance than take a cash payment, cash discounts don't exist anymore. For these drivers, if the car breaks they tap the app and get another car. They pay their money, repairs not their problem. When the lease is up, they get a new car on a new deal. The marque they drive is about driver image, image shaped by things such as motorsport, who the drivers are, the colours, the results. That's branding and brand alignment, and many, not all, drivers will pretend they own their car and live to the values of that brand.
Only for mainly older retired people it's an investment and about reliability and costs, who seemingly only choose Chinese now, these are the only people concerned with product quality and how reliable the suspension coil springs are, but they're not taking any motorsport success into consideration because a) the Chinese brands don't do motorsport, and b) neither do 99% of the parts found in a consumer car. You can't watch any car win on Sunday and think 'that is the car for me tomorrow!' There's absolutely no motorsport other than eco rally which could make that situation possible with modern cars. And nobody can even see eco rally.

On Formula E, I'm not convinced the costs of participation are all that high for manufacturers, and it's more like sponsorship of private teams, which then becomes tax topical. And the series itself is well financed and established by a guy who knows the score very well. I wouldn't be surprised if a treasury department isn't writing the cheques directly. Extreme H is the same guy and literally nobody has an incentive to pay into that. More study needed for me I think.
 
deephouse said:
Why would WRC copy every other sport? It doesn't have identity crisis, just bunch of crazy, without common sense people calling shots. WRC or rallying on basic terms have this unique way that no other sport have, and it should be presented as a it is:

-racing on public roads, roads we use every day and roads which are usually intended for proper 4x4 vehicles.
-rather than racing head to head, racing for best possible time (fastest)
-racing on every possible surface (soft/rough gravel, snow and ice, tarmac and whatever is left of it or patches of it, concrete, mud...)
-racing in every possible weather (snowy, sunny, rain, fog)
-racing in every possible time during the day (morning, afternoon, evening or night)
-racing in extreme conditions (-20 or less, +40 or more, heavy fog, heavy rain, heavy snow, icy, dirt on road, rocks...)
-during crews hit the troubles, fans are allowed to help them to get back on their "feet"
-almost every sector of stage can be spectated by fans
-crazy jumps, drifting, dramatic crashes, incidents, flatouts, incredible sound
-you can race the world champion or stars of this sport
-crews trying to fix their cars during free time in case of troubles on the side of the road and if you are lucky, can catch that
-you can drive behind the crews or meet them practically very closely

Did I miss something? You can add it up if you think of something else.

I believe that this sport have this unique things that it doesn't need any BoP or anything that other sport have to promote it better.
Click to expand...
-crazy jumps, drifting, dramatic crashes, incidents, flatouts, incredible sound, and this part is gone next year
 
focus206 said:
Apart from TCR championships, a Peugeot hypercar overtaking a Toyota hypercar in a WEC race won't matter for selling some 208 at dealerships, it's a brand image matter. Also having your car going fast on roads, covered in dirt or snow is a brand image matter, even more if that car resembles an actual car that Peugeot sells (okay, it's Rally4 category, so we can't expect that much).
Yes, customers drive on asphalt European roads, but they also don't drive Le Mans spaceships.


What would the tuners (so private teams that build a funny protoype kinda from the ground up, we're not even talking about privateers like TGS running a Fabia) answer to the questions you've answered on behalf of manufacturers? They have no reason to do any of that, if not "to race" and hope to sell a couple of prototypes.
And we expect them to soon field a 2 car team for ALL rounds of the championship, maybe with a larger calendar which will possibly include USA, China, India, Antarctica and Mars. Sounds great for private European teams.
On the positive side, the less teams there are that build prototypes and commit to a championship, the sooner this concept might get binned.
Click to expand...
For the tuners the same incentive as would apply as, for example, Haas in F1. They are / were essencially a tuner. Due to the Budget Cap F1 is just a business for them, they get money through F1 and the sponsors, which offsets their investment into the sport. Or with other words money in, money out. They do not need to answer those questions first and formost
 
27Stan said:
(snip)

On Formula E, I'm not convinced the costs of participation are all that high for manufacturers, and it's more like sponsorship of private teams, which then becomes tax topical. And the series itself is well financed and established by a guy who knows the score very well. I wouldn't be surprised if a treasury department isn't writing the cheques directly. Extreme H is the same guy and literally nobody has an incentive to pay into that. More study needed for me I think.
Click to expand...
Formula E is absolutely great for brand image. "Hey look, we even drive in the full electric series, look how we care about the environment! - Ahh those diesel generators over there? They are for something completely different, not related to Formula E at all!" ^^
 
Ferranis said:
I would assume that the Toyota domination also plays a part. Why should any manu embarrass themselves against them? One would need supreme commitment, years of high and stable investment. And for what? With this kind of investment they rather show up in F1 / WEC / DAKAR
Click to expand...

For sure Toyota participation in WRC has been both a blessing and a curse.

They've invested hugely and given us great cars and seats for great drivers, but they have become so strong that no-one can really compete with them.

This has become an even bigger problem as time has passed, especially when a car giant like Hyundai cant or wont go all-in to fight them.

Heading into the future this issue looks worse than ever, with only Toyota building a WRC27. And the opposition will be an ancient Ford Fiesta (+ Kit) and a couple of new teams with cars based on other Rally2 mechanicals and who knows what bodywork/ aero.
 
Ferranis said:
For the tuners the same incentive as would apply as, for example, Haas in F1. They are / were essencially a tuner. Due to the Budget Cap F1 is just a business for them, they get money through F1 and the sponsors, which offsets their investment into the sport. Or with other words money in, money out. They do not need to answer those questions first and formost
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In other words, they'd be there "to race". But rallying isn't F1, nor circuit racing. Tuners won't easily appear out of nowhere and commit to a long, expensive calendar around the world (even more in the future) for all rounds with a 2 car team, like it apparently will be requested.
 
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