Hyundai WRT

[wyler]

Promoter can only handle WRC, the yet-to-be-constructors need to know when these new cars will become good for the regional and national championships too like was intended and that's pivotal to a build-or-not decision. And the tuners need to know when they can stick their own sourced engines in them - like was intended. But the FIA won't want to piss off the Rally2 manufs that may turn up in WRC next year by announcing those timelines.

'WRC2027' is going to be a gradual process, the only people panicking are on this forum worrying what Monte 27 will look like.

and that's it! you are basically speaking about money and return of investment of the new cars, if it worth it or not. the very same toyota is still quietly marketing pro rally2, because they need to sell (especially spare parts) until the end of homologation -2030-. They will sell WRC27 as late as possible to keep the recent rally2 valuable.

promoter indeed handles the wrc, but wrc is what defines the sport, everything else goes by.

 

[Fast-Eddie]

that's not about deciding to invest on 2027, though

It shows how they arent short of money though but very late, as for 2022, in deciding whether to use it on WRC. They've clearly learned nothing from the past unless it's all just a delaying tactic for quitting altogether.

 

[wyler]

It shows how they arent short of money though but very late, as for 2022, in deciding whether to use it on WRC. They've clearly learned nothing from the past unless it's all just a delaying tactic for quitting altogether.

never been about money. it's (always) all about getting something back from competing (aka investing money for a reason).

 

[flat_right]

this looks like a good point, but is not: it has a big big flaw. Money!
Hiunday and M-Sport doesn't commit to top level (and skoda, and lancia too btw) because of a simple reason: money!

Hyundai hasn't had any money issue. The issue comes from the top of the management who are not sure what to do. If they decide there has always been money to hire top of the top from the drivers and also technical side. BUT the issue is they are always half or a full step behind Toyota. Every hiring needs an onboarding period etc so it all takes time. M-Sport has a money issue and one of the reasons r5 or rally2 that brought money in has not been selling because they are behind of the development.

They need a return of the investment they would do to bring a new car to the top level. it's easy to see that the only working business model is selling car to the customers, even for toyota. so car is not the point, they'll do a new car if it's worth it, and it's not at the moment. u can see it also with the lack of real "tuners" for 27, we still didn't see any of them on the road, and the couple rumored working on it have big institutional backing. The reason is not the current cars, nor the lack of competition per se. it's the whole sport that doesn't generate enough income for the manufacturers. that's the point for the promoter, and that's why basically everyone is waiting.

You have mixed up the things. Of course you need some kind of return of investment but this is very had to do. F1 got their shit together just recently and it's the pinnacle of sport. Before that I think half of the teams were always losing money. WRC has no chance to compete with F1 in terms of ROI at the moment. And to think that a promoter comes in and thinks out something magical is wishful thinking. First, they need to make the product better and then they can sell. And one big part of the product are the cars and competition. If we have Serderidis three days live on TV and best Rally2 cars harassing Rally1, where is the competition?

Little bit on the cars: i don't think i20 or fiestas are that much behind. both have good results in erc and regional rallies. i20 won 2 erc in the last years, won in spain and portugal with sordo, is in top10 in france and italy. of course there's a reason why it's not so widely used, that being a customer department way lower than skoda (it also applies to lancia, for the moment, there aren't 20/25 lancia rally2 in the same entry -let's see if they will develop a big department with time- and also toyota doesn't reach the same numbers, even if it has a very good structure, of course).

Fiestas and i20s are behind and this is a fact. You can cherry pick a result here and there but if you look WRC2 or ERC, you can see who are dominating. Most of the Rally2s are bought and if you can choose between cars, you know you are not taking these cars. If they were good, drivers would choose them and go through the hassle of finding parts etc.

 

[wyler]

Hyundai hasn't had any money issue. The issue comes from the top of the management who are not sure what to do. If they decide there has always been money to hire top of the top from the drivers and also technical side. BUT the issue is they are always half or a full step behind Toyota. Every hiring needs an onboarding period etc so it all takes time. M-Sport has a money issue and one of the reasons r5 or rally2 that brought money in has not been selling because they are behind of the development.

i said it myself. it's not about money per se, it's about having a reason to spend that money, and most of time, from investment point of view only, winning is less important than what we romanticise. luckily there's also the sport side. (just to clarify, i use the same f1 example as you did. most of team has no chance to win, but being there is worth anyway.)

You have mixed up the things. Of course you need some kind of return of investment but this is very had to do. F1 got their shit together just recently and it's the pinnacle of sport. Before that I think half of the teams were always losing money. WRC has no chance to compete with F1 in terms of ROI at the moment. And to think that a promoter comes in and thinks out something magical is wishful thinking. First, they need to make the product better and then they can sell. And one big part of the product are the cars and competition. If we have Serderidis three days live on TV and best Rally2 cars harassing Rally1, where is the competition?

they're not losing money, they're investing it to have something back, most of the time, not monetary. of course it's a complex theme, appealing it on "magic" term is just lowering the discussion. what i mean is that promoter sets an horizon to work towards, and that is what company wants to know to decide if it worth their money. of course, companies are different as well, some want a deeper reassurance than others. it's nice, 'cause your example about car, is totally about promoter instead: tv airtime is precisely a promoter decision.

Fiestas and i20s are behind and this is a fact. You can cherry pick a result here and there but if you look WRC2 or ERC, you can see who are dominating. Most of the Rally2s are bought and if you can choose between cars, you know you are not taking these cars. If they were good, drivers would choose them and go through the hassle of finding parts etc.

a fact is more that, wrc2 apart -yet with a podium in monte- these cars are constantly in top5/10. is not cherry picking, it's statistics, just open ewrc final result of any week and you can find top 5/10 of many regional events with those cars in it (and that, without taking drivers into account)

erc: last year had a fiesta as runner up, the 2 previous years won by i20.

ps: in terms of numbers, r5/rally2 sales:
fabia 600, fiesta 400+, c3 150, i20 120, yaris 50+, y 40+ (ordered)

 

[flat_right]

they're not losing money, they're investing it to have something back, most of the time, not monetary. of course it's a complex theme, appealing it on "magic" term is just lowering the discussion. what i mean is that promoter sets an horizon to work towards, and that is what company wants to know to decide if it worth their money. of course, companies are different as well, some want a deeper reassurance than others. it's nice, 'cause your example about car, is totally about promoter instead: tv airtime is precisely a promoter decision.

So this is the classic "chicken-and-egg" debate we have here. You are saying that protomer thinks out how to promote the series, how to generate revenue and then teams will decide if it is worthy enough to participate. What I say is that the series itself needs to appeal first and foremost fans, who want to watch it, manufacturers, journalists, host countries etc. If the FIA's technical rules result in an uncompetitive, boring, expensive championship, the promoter is essentially being asked to sell a flawed product. And I think this is the case why noone wants to buy promoter rights. You cannot promote your way out of a bad sport.

tv airtime is precisely a promoter decision.

The promoter can schedule 50 hours of live TV airtime on Rally.tv, but if the product is boring, fans won't subscribe, and TV networks won't buy the broadcasting rights. Do you remember time in F1, when all the teams wanted to have "air time" so the f1 qualifying was like all the drivers went out one by one and then all of them got the exact media coverage? Well guess what... no one wanted to see backmarkers. Everyone wants to watch competition. This is the reason we do and watch sport. As the classic quote goes: If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score?

a fact is more that, wrc2 apart -yet with a podium in monte- these cars are constantly in top5/10. is not cherry picking, it's statistics, just open ewrc final result of any week and you can find top 5/10 of many regional events with those cars in it (and that, without taking drivers into account)

erc: last year had a fiesta as runner up, the 2 previous years won by i20.

ps: in terms of numbers, r5/rally2 sales:
fabia 600, fiesta 400+, c3 150, i20 120, yaris 50+, y 40+ (ordered)

You are 100% cherry picking here mate. You can't take the whole history and say this is CURRENTLY a great car. You are as good as your last rally and Hyundai and M-Sport are not doing good. Lets look at the top categories (WRC2 and EWRC) where all the top drivers compete.

Last win in WRC2 for Hyundai was in 2022 New Zealand. Last win for M-Sport was in 2021 Monza. In ERC it was in 2024 for Hyundai and in 2025 for Ford. Before that Ford won last time in 2020. This is pure statistics.

 

[Fast-Eddie]

A lot is down to the driver with Rally2 Cars and there's also an element of certain cars being in fashion, especially when a new one comes along.

The i20N and Fiesta Mk8 arent bad cars as the likes of Paddon and Armstrong have shown. But they were only in them as they were linked to Hyundai and M-Sport. Both cars have been developed later in life and others passed them meantime. They're probably ok now but cant grab the sales back after so long being underdeveloped.

Also top WRC2 drivers have had links to Skoda, Citroen, Toyota, Lancia hence those choices.

 

[Ferranis]

Driver can make up some difference but it's fact that the Toyotas / Skodas / Lancias(?) are just better.

And why should I spend the (large amount) of money for a WRC1 season / event next year and hamstring myself with a worse car - only when I have to and already have a Ford / Hyundai or they pay me to drive one.

Which all results in declining sales for Ford / Hyundai

 

[deephouse]

Didn't drivers complain that i20 Rally2 is hard to drive/have flaws. Fiesta is kinda the oldest now, so it's understandable they stop develop it.

 

[wyler]

Didn't drivers complain that i20 Rally2 is hard to drive/have flaws. Fiesta is kinda the oldest now, so it's understandable they stop develop it.

Reply to this for the general purpose.

i didn't say anything different. i just said -as common knowledge around service parks- that there's no huge difference between the rally2 cars. small difference? indeed! of course some are slightly better than others, of course, the newest are better developed/engineered, of course, some are easier to drive than others. i just said: pretty much all rally2 at the top level can fight for the win. (original discussion was about i20 rally2 on wrc next year.)

even polo r5 is still a good car in the right hands! and that's because they're all near the end of the evolution curve. then yes, gentleman drivers tell Skoda as the easiest to push, while toyota and lancia have smaller window as c3 had, and so on. still none of the rally2 are paying 1s/km to the top per se.

 

[wyler]

So this is the classic "chicken-and-egg" debate we have here. You are saying that protomer thinks out how to promote the series, how to generate revenue and then teams will decide if it is worthy enough to participate. What I say is that the series itself needs to appeal first and foremost fans, who want to watch it, manufacturers, journalists, host countries etc. If the FIA's technical rules result in an uncompetitive, boring, expensive championship, the promoter is essentially being asked to sell a flawed product. And I think this is the case why noone wants to buy promoter rights. You cannot promote your way out of a bad sport.

that's not chicken-egg. it's just cause and effect.
what do u mean exactly "the series itself needs to appeal ..."? who's "the series"? it's the promoter that set up the series...they decide almost everything! yes, it is fia that extend the regulations, but who has the bigger say on it? it's the promoter! who decides to go to small or bigger cars? who decides the way to attract more manufacturers? it's the promoter. they also decides where to race, service park location, remote service or not, length and format of the itinerary, and so on.

if u don't believe me, just check around:
"The championship format, television coverage and promotional activities will be developed in partnership with the new promoter."
https://rallyjournal.com/wrc-set-for-major-transformation-as-fia-deadline-approaches/

"The new promoter will carry significant responsibility in trying to grow the WRC’s visibility and popularity in the coming years." [about promoter speaking to drivers] " Neuville has long proposed even radical changes to the WRC. For example, he has suggested that rallies could vary more in format – Safari Rally Kenya could be run as a multi-day marathon event, while the ultra-fast Rally Finland could be completed over a couple of days. Neuville believes the new promoter will listen carefully to drivers’ views. “The plan they have is basically something I spoke about already seven or eight years ago..."
and so on. this show how much they're involved.they don't get the fia package to work with. they set up the package with fia.

The promoter can schedule 50 hours of live TV airtime on Rally.tv, but if the product is boring, fans won't subscribe, and TV networks won't buy the broadcasting rights.

exactly. but still, it is the promoter that decides to show serderidis more than a wrc2 battle, where to put the cameras, when to do interviews, what stages goes on live tv...and even what to do with the footage, what format to sell to broadcaster, who will do the editing production of that content.

Do you remember time in F1, when all the teams wanted to have "air time" so the f1 qualifying was like all the drivers went out one by one and then all of them got the exact media coverage? Well guess what... no one wanted to see backmarkers. Everyone wants to watch competition. This is the reason we do and watch sport. As the classic quote goes: If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score?

tha's again is a fan perspective. that is legit, don't get me wrong. but it is not the main concern in the buttons room. audi, cadillac, haas and many others have no possibility to win, yet, they're there year and years even without podiums. there's worth for them besides the score, evidently.

You are 100% cherry picking here mate. You can't take the whole history and say this is CURRENTLY a great car. You are as good as your last rally and Hyundai and M-Sport are not doing good. Lets look at the top categories (WRC2 and EWRC) where all the top drivers compete. Last win in WRC2 for Hyundai was in 2022 New Zealand. Last win for M-Sport was in 2021 Monza. In ERC it was in 2024 for Hyundai and in 2025 for Ford. Before that Ford won last time in 2020. This is pure statistics.

mate, i literally said "take the ewrc result page on every of the last weeks, and you'll find even that car in the top 5/10 in regional rally."
in erc they literally won 2 of the last 3 championships, being 2nd in the last, with 2 o/a win for ford. that's not enough recent times? 25, as u report, is literally the last season. i used the same statistics as you. pelamorgues (not really an elite driver), was 3rd this year at monte wrc2). again, as u can read in a more elaborate post above, i didnt say they're great. i said CURRENTLY they're good enough to compete, cause there's no huge difference between the rally2 cars. statistics say so.

 

[flat_right]

that's not chicken-egg. it's just cause and effect.
what do u mean exactly "the series itself needs to appeal ..."? who's "the series"?

What I meant "the series itself needs to appeal" is that to the promoter to sell the product to the TV stations, fans, younger generation etc, it has to be exciting to watch and there needs to be competition. Basically all today's sport is built on different narratives and rivalries, which they then try to sell. But if you don't have teams competing with each other, Toyota gets 1-3 basically every time, then it gets boring very fast.

who's "the series"? it's the promoter that set up the series...they decide almost everything! yes, it is fia that extend the regulations, but who has the bigger say on it? it's the promoter! who decides to go to small or bigger cars? who decides the way to attract more manufacturers? it's the promoter. they also decides where to race, service park location, remote service or not, length and format of the itinerary, and so on.

You are over romanticizing the promoter's role here. They play a part in the rulemaking, but they do not have a "bigger say." The rules are decided by the WRC Commission, which comprises voting members from all current manufacturers, the WRC Promoter, and a representative of the crews. And before that, there is WRC Technical Working Group, who thinks out all the technical details. Promoter doesn't know shit about restrictor sizes or safety cell designs. Additionally, there are the FIA and other WRC stakeholders who play apart in this process. They all work together, but to say that the promoter calls the shots is a massive exaggeration. Or you think that the promoter wanted to go for WRC2 cars for 2027? So this is the best thing we will sell? I doubt.

Where does promoter have a say? How to PROMOTE the sport. It includes media coverage, tv rights, what events are in the calendar, event standards, digital and social media etc. But this has nothing to do how the competition looks like, what are the technical regulations etc and this is what I have been trying to tell you all the time. If this part is bad, there is nothing to promote.

if u don't believe me, just check around:
"The championship format, television coverage and promotional activities will be developed in partnership with the new promoter."
https://rallyjournal.com/wrc-set-for-major-transformation-as-fia-deadline-approaches/

"The new promoter will carry significant responsibility in trying to grow the WRC’s visibility and popularity in the coming years." [about promoter speaking to drivers] " Neuville has long proposed even radical changes to the WRC. For example, he has suggested that rallies could vary more in format – Safari Rally Kenya could be run as a multi-day marathon event, while the ultra-fast Rally Finland could be completed over a couple of days. Neuville believes the new promoter will listen carefully to drivers’ views. “The plan they have is basically something I spoke about already seven or eight years ago..."
and so on. this show how much they're involved.they don't get the fia package to work with. they set up the package with fia.

Yes, exactly. Based on that, nothing about the cars is decided by the promoter. This is what I was talking about all the time. We could drive backwards but if there is no competition, nobody won't watch it.

mate, i literally said "take the ewrc result page on every of the last weeks, and you'll find even that car in the top 5/10 in regional rally."
in erc they literally won 2 of the last 3 championships, being 2nd in the last, with 2 o/a win for ford. that's not enough recent times? 25, as u report, is literally the last season. i used the same statistics as you. pelamorgues (not really an elite driver), was 3rd this year at monte wrc2). again, as u can read in a more elaborate post above, i didnt say they're great. i said CURRENTLY they're good enough to compete, cause there's no huge difference between the rally2 cars. statistics say so.

Just give up, this is a battle you can't win. No one cares about the regional level. We need to see where the best drivers are and this is WRC2 and ERC. We can end this with one answer - if you could choose a car to compete in any series and you need to win, what would you choose?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Hyundai and M-Sport cars can't win. If you'd put a experienced driver behind the wheel, anything is possible against younger and less experienced drivers but if you are going head to head with the same caliber drivers, Hyundai and Ford would end up losing.

 

[wyler]

What I meant "the series itself needs to appeal" is that to the promoter to sell the product to the TV stations, fans, younger generation etc, it has to be exciting to watch and there needs to be competition. Basically all today's sport is built on different narratives and rivalries, which they then try to sell. But if you don't have teams competing with each other, Toyota gets 1-3 basically every time, then it gets boring very fast.
You are over romanticizing the promoter's role here. They play a part in the rulemaking, but they do not have a "bigger say." The rules are decided by the WRC Commission, which comprises voting members from all current manufacturers, the WRC Promoter, and a representative of the crews. And before that, there is WRC Technical Working Group, who thinks out all the technical details. Promoter doesn't know shit about restrictor sizes or safety cell designs. Additionally, there are the FIA and other WRC stakeholders who play apart in this process. They all work together, but to say that the promoter calls the shots is a massive exaggeration. Or you think that the promoter wanted to go for WRC2 cars for 2027? So this is the best thing we will sell? I doubt.

i'm on the other side, sorry! i think you underestimate the role of the promoter. of course there's the board, of course there's the technical part. but there's one that doing economic research and speaks to the manus about what they want from the series to be there. and that's not the fia. They use the promoter for it ( and for taking the blame if not working, like now, with the change). it's not the fia that work on marketing...

Where does promoter have a say? How to PROMOTE the sport. It includes media coverage, tv rights, what events are in the calendar, event standards, digital and social media etc. But this has nothing to do how the competition looks like, what are the technical regulations etc and this is what I have been trying to tell you all the time. If this part is bad, there is nothing to promote.

yes. but do you really think format and regulation have nothing to do with promotion? promotion is not only about tv and social media. that's the fan perspective! on the other side, it's all about making the series generate interest, for fan - sure - but most important for brands. attract sponsorship, generate value for the brands. and that is about having service parks and sss in town, near people, having vip hospitality and so on. and if you think a bit deeper about media/social content, you'll realize that has everything to do with format of the race and location ( u really think they don't have a say in going to saudi's money or to usa? c'mon). same goes for cars. of course rally2 is sustained by the promoter, (here, indeed, i agree, they need more entrants).

Yes, exactly. Based on that, nothing about the cars is decided by the promoter. This is what I was talking about all the time. We could drive backwards but if there is no competition, nobody won't watch it.

please, don't make me work for u... i cited a couple examples. u can easily find more, think about who pushed for the green agenda and toward hybrid in 2021...

Just give up, this is a battle you can't win. No one cares about the regional level. We need to see where the best drivers are and this is WRC2 and ERC. We can end this with one answer - if you could choose a car to compete in any series and you need to win, what would you choose?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Hyundai and M-Sport cars can't win. If you'd put a experienced driver behind the wheel, anything is possible against younger and less experienced drivers but if you are going head to head with the same caliber drivers, Hyundai and Ford would end up losing.

i give up, if 2 victory and a second place in the last 3 years (erc) and wrc2 podiums this season are not enough, i don't have any more to offer.
btw, regional level is the where they sell cars...
anyway, the original point stays: rally2 are almost all on the same level ( you said they can win) so hiunday can compete with it in wrc '27.

 

[deephouse]

If they (Hyundai) would be so sure of that car (their Rally2), then they would already compete officialy in WRC2. They had this with RedGrey and 2C Competition but never really fight for the top. Also if they are so sure in that car, why would then they said that probably will not run factory team in Rally2 car either.

 

[wyler]

If they (Hyundai) would be so sure of that car (their Rally2), then they would already compete officialy in WRC2. They had this with RedGrey and 2C Competition but never really fight for the top.

why should they? there's nothing in wrc2 that has an appeal for the manufacturers... no-one else has an official team in wrc2, so...why them? wrc2 is for customers. not even skoda has an official team there. only lancia to use easy marketing ("we are back in wrc, winning"). Hiunday invested a bit with Adamo when they launched the customer program, then let it go by its own revenue without much more investment.

I
Also if they are so sure in that car, why would then they said that probably will not run factory team in Rally2 car either.

same as above and same as last months of discussion on wrc27: is the participation in wrc27 worth the investment? probably the board is uncertain -to say the least-

(today news of rally2kit can be a hint)

 

[Fast-Eddie]

New Hyundai i20N coming ...

https://www.facebook.com/share/14jPks7FjZx/

 

[Eli]

Neuville has no clue what he's doing in 2027 – DirtFish

WRC – Hyundai's WRC future is unclear, and so is Thierry Neuville's

dirtfish.com

Neuville clueless.

 

[WRCStan]

But definitely we'll 100% see ALL the top drivers FOR SURE if Rally2 was top class.

Been at Goodwood this past couple of days, huge presence from TGR as expected. JML and OS doing Rally1 passenger rides, and multiple rally-raids being driven there too besides all the roundy-racey things they do. Solbergs on the F1 stage talking to the crowds doing the powerlifting for WRC. Not sure if/who else will turn up over the weekend.

Hyundai Motorsport: ... ... .. . Nothing. There was a production Hyundai stand but with all new cars, not a mention of WRC. Not even a Rally1 on static display like years gone by. They're 100% done with rally as a factory entry.

I hope to see Neuville driving next year, in a Hyundai or anything, but I'm not surprised in the slightest at anything in that article.