Why are you blaming this on KK?????

[jimispeed]

If a merger didn't happen, then why are all of you putting KK/Champcar to blame?? You don't know what is really going on behind the scenes do you???

There are way to many people on this "CHAMPCAR FORUM" who are willing to let the IRL have it all!!!

The IRL isn't any better off than Champcar IMO.....

This forum has became a place for all of you to celebrate the bomb.....

And, all of this right after Sebring, which was a pretty damn good testing session!!

Who cares right???

[Cart750hp]

You sounded like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWSjUe0FyxQ

[jimispeed]

You sounded like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWSjUe0FyxQ


You are exactly who I thought you were. Hopefully the moderator has enough balls to ban you!!

I'm conducting myself in a very responsible manner.....

This post doesn't deserve ridicule!!

[gofastandwynn]

Getting past all previous politics, KK isn't on that plane to Japan right now, TG is and it is quite clear who is doing the bulk of the work and it is not KK.

Jimi, you are right we don't know what is going on behind the scenes, but at the same time we didn't during the previous merger talks and yet everyone rushed to blame TG when they fell through...

I do think the IRL is in a better position that champcar. Not overwhelming great, but better.

One of the reasons I think this is happening right now is the economy. The economy is the the toilet and sponsorship dollars are running thin everywhere. Daytona is down 11 cars from last year with teams closing and Villeneuve, Kvapil, J. Andretti, Franchitti, Schrader are all full time drivers w/o major sponsorship. In the NHRA they only have 17 TF this weekend with a number of sponsors pulling out over the offseason (Torco was the big one) and a number of teams closing and cars showing up at Pomona sponsor less (Grubnic, Will, Head, Ashley , Johnson) with a number of teams closing (Snake's FC team). In F1 most talks says Super Aguri won't answer the bell without a major investor coming on board. There just isn't a lot of money out there right now.

I think that with the economy in the shape it is in both sides realize now is the time because of the lack of money out there...

[Ranger]

You are exactly who I thought you were. Hopefully the moderator has enough balls to ban you!!

I'm conducting myself in a very responsible manner.....

This post doesn't deserve ridicule!!

But the obvious answer is self explanatory.

Most of the people here just want a merger to put ChampCar out of its misery. Like you would want to do if say, your pet dog became incapacitated by illness almost to the point of death (like ChampCar now... the mere highlights package is the big giveaway as to its current state).

Like it or not, whilst the IRL has improved over the past 10 years, the once mighty CART declined, split, and is now an embarrassment of its former self. With KK at the helm its obvious this is who is going to get blamed if the series just embarrasses itself for another year.

Fans of American Open Wheel Racing just want to see one series, as its obvious the two series thing just hasn't worked out. And the CCWS owners have finally seen this and are now in the process of swallowing their pride.

Any questions?

[Gluaistean]

You sounded like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWSjUe0FyxQ

This is exactly the type of garbage that has kept this forum so quiet this winter. Why not answer the post with an intelligent response instead of this juvenile ridiculous garbage that you and a few others can appreciate.
The question posed by Jimispeed is legitimate. Have you a legitimate and constructive reply?

[Cart750hp]

You are exactly who I thought you were. Hopefully the moderator has enough balls to ban you!!

I'm conducting myself in a very responsible manner.....

This post doesn't deserve ridicule!!

Oh come on, jimispeed. Lighten up. It's been too crazy all day about this hostile take over thing yet you are saying why blame KK?

I don't blame KK for what he's doing now. I think he's doing the right thing of handing over the series to the people who have the foundation and willing to step up. Look, for the past 4 years, we've seen how hard to mismanage CC to be a better series. It looks like CC management tried their best to improve it but it just comes back and bites them. So a huge thumbs up to KK for doing this. TG on the other hand is working hard, to get it together because if he couldnt get it done this year, this could be his last chance.

[garyshell]

You sounded like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWSjUe0FyxQ

Was that REALLY necessary? You really can be a piece of work. As I said yesterday it's fence mendin' time. It is not time for BS like this.

Gary

[jimispeed]

Oh come on, jimispeed. Lighten up. It's been too crazy all day about this hostile take over thing yet you are saying why blame KK?

I don't blame KK for what he's doing now. I think he's doing the right thing of handing over the series to the people who have the foundation and willing to step up. Look, for the past 4 years, we've seen how hard to mismanage CC to be a better series. It looks like CC management tried their best to improve it but it just comes back and bites them. So a huge thumbs up to KK for doing this. TG on the other hand is working hard, to get it together because if he couldnt get it done this year, this could be his last chance.



None of us truly know what's going on behind the scenes.... That is my point.

I'm not sure how I'll feel until everything goes down.

I know where I came from, and believe in motor racing though!!

And, as for your opening comment.......

[Albert D. Kallal]

I think that with the economy in the shape it is in both sides realize now is the time because of the lack of money out there...

Your post has some REALLY interesting points and food for thought that I had not considered. The economy is in rough shape right now, and as you mention even NASCAR is feeling the effects of their high costs, and harder to get sponsorship dollars.

However, pursuing your theme we would see that teams are more exposed to corporate cut backs on the IRL side right now. Teams like AGR and others cannot survive without Honda bucks (Or they're very lucrative corporate sponsors they have).

If rumors are true that Honda wants out, then from a corporate sponsor point of view, the IRL is in really deep trouble right now. I suspect that the IRL at a deep level knows Honda’s intentions far better than my simple speculation here.

CCWS is setup to run and survive with less corporate sponsorships then is the IRL. At least that's the way it's been for the last couple years anyway, and we often get that champ car is just a rich club car series.

Furthermore, champ car does have Cosworth as its engine supplier, and that’s going to remain in place for the foreseeable future. In a sense, champ car has already gone through some of the pain and changes that are the result of less corporate sponsorship. Champ car also has a really good ladder system in place, and you need that system to survive if the want to create drivers of tomorrow (Star Mazda--> Alantances-->Champ car). In a sense, champ car is in a better position corporate wise to work this hard Economy then is the IRL.

The loss of Honda to the IRL will be huge blow, and will make additional corporate sponsorship dollars even harder to find (the IRL has too many events that don’t draw crowds, but with Honda giving out free tickets at some events, stuff like that makes a big differrence).

In fact, Honda’s pulling out could cause a ripple effect for other sponsors to leave the IRL. The thought of losing Honda must be keeping some people awake at night, and it is certainly not us champ car people worrying about this problem.

In a tight USA economy, champ car is in a far better position to whether a bad economic downturn, and furthermore we only have about half of all races in the USA, and many races outside of the USA are wildly successful...

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

[beachbum]

If a merger didn't happen, then why are all of you putting KK/Champcar to blame?? You don't know what is really going on behind the scenes do you???
Blaming KK makes no more (or less) sense that blaming it all on TG. No one really knows exactly what is going on behind the scenes, but unlike previous rumors, some teams and officials are talking on the record. Neither side is denying that there are serious talks. That is new.

IMHO, the biggest problem with CART and now CCWS is having team owners run the series. Without a single czar at the top who rules for the series, you end up with a bunch of squabbling ego driven owners who all want to run the series their way. Instead of working together, they are all pulling in different directions with different agendas. CCWS sure leaves one with the impression that no one is really in charge.

There are way to many people on this "CHAMPCAR FORUM" who are willing to let the IRL have it all!!!

The IRL isn't any better off than Champcar IMO.....That is your opinion. Neither series is strong, but it isn't a matter of "letting" IRL get it all. CCWS isn't showing it can survive economically on its own. The series owners appear to be trying to find a way out of the mess, and keep trying for some melding (or whatever you want to call it) with the IRL. Rather than pushing CCWS toward growth for the future, the series owners keep talking about resolutions that would end CCWS.

This forum has became a place for all of you to celebrate the bomb.....

And, all of this right after Sebring, which was a pretty damn good testing session!!

Who cares right???Celebrate the bomb? If CCWS goes away it isn't the end of the world for most race fans. A few fanatics will walk away in disgust, but more general race fans will watch something else. It isn't a destructive explosion, it is evolution.

Well, at lot of fans care, but some have different ideas about the future.

[sanguin]

CC is not going away. There is nothing to indicate that TG will have control of any merged series. There is no offer, or agreement.

Robin, did a great disservice to Champ Car and OW by printing a story that wasn't true. The talks are not even far enough to discuss cars or engines. There is no decision on events.

CC will go with 2008 as planned, the IRL will not be at LB at this time. The only way for it to happen is if the IRL teams show up with DP01's.

[SarahFan]

Getting past all previous politics, KK isn't on that plane to Japan right now, TG is and it is quite clear who is doing the bulk of the work and it is not KK.
..


then again it's been stated repeatedly that Honda wags the dog...


it's unbelievable to this race fan that Motegi of all things might be the stumbling block....

that speaks volumes in and of itself

[clydekart]

KK is the one who saved CC and convinced a judge to award it to him rather the TG even though KK's offer was much smaller. I am not sure if KK is a real lover of racing or he is a good business man who saw an opportunity. If he loves racing , he should continue with his vision of CC and not sell-out for a CW and a million dollars per team.

[tbyars]

KK is the one who saved CC and convinced a judge to award it to him rather the TG even though KK's offer was much smaller. I am not sure if KK is a real lover of racing or he is a good business man who saw an opportunity. If he loves racing , he should continue with his vision of CC and not sell-out for a CW and a million dollars per team.

You sure do a good job of spending KK's money.

[tbyars]

CC is not going away.

Yes, Sanguin, it is. You are just in denial.


There is nothing to indicate that TG will have control of any merged series.

It was reported two weeks ago that the offer would bring the CCWS teams under George's IRL. Wrong again.


There is no offer, or agreement. No offer? George, Clark and Edswick just took a flight out to Japan for a round of golf?

I've never seen anyone in denial like you are.

And, I suspect, when they get back, there will be an agreement.


Robin, did a great disservice to Champ Car and OW by printing a story that wasn't true.

Here...Let me fix that for you:

"Robin, did a great disservice to Champ Car and me by printing a story that I don't want to be true."


The talks are not even far enough to discuss cars or engines.

Yes there is. Whether you like it or not, Dallaras and Hondas.


There is no decision on events.

But there will be when they get back from Japan.


CC will go with 2008 as planned, the IRL will not be at LB at this time. The only way for it to happen is if the IRL teams show up with DP01's.

That looks like a new sig line for someone about Tuesday or Wednesday.

[OWFan19]

CC is not going away. There is nothing to indicate that TG will have control of any merged series. There is no offer, or agreement.

Robin, did a great disservice to Champ Car and OW by printing a story that wasn't true. The talks are not even far enough to discuss cars or engines. There is no decision on events.

CC will go with 2008 as planned, the IRL will not be at LB at this time. The only way for it to happen is if the IRL teams show up with DP01's.

CC might not be "going" away, they are already gone!

This is a done deal, just waiting for all of the i's to be dotted.

You guys at Champ Car screwed one of the few race writers that cared about your sport. Just another reason why this series has gone nowhere.

[tbyars]

This is a done deal, just waiting for all of the i's to be dotted.

I was absolutely convinced of that last night when that aircraft with George, Clark and Edswick went wheels up.

[OWFan19]

I was absolutely convinced of that last night when that aircraft with George, Clark and Edswick went wheels up.

Yep.

This is something that could litterally change OW, and requires a face to face meeting with Honda. Its more than just moving the date of one race. TG is going to tie up any loose ends on Honda's side, inform them of everything going on. That would be a very long phone call. Get some of the other IRL players to go and insure that this is a good deal for Honda.

[FerrrariF1]

then again it's been stated repeatedly that Honda wags the dog...


it's unbelievable to this race fan that Motegi of all things might be the stumbling block....

that speaks volumes in and of itself

You hit the nail on the head...Honda holds all the cards as Honda will pull out after their contract ends and has stated as much unless there is one series. Holnda wants compeition and George can't find any takers. he is in serious risk of losing Honda and all the money they pay to the series, keeping Andretti-Green afloat. Honda also stated that they will make it known in the late summer if they return after the 2009 season (which all hinges on compeition which Cosworth can supply). George is running scared and knows that unless he comes up with a killer blow (through Miller's propoganda) or works out a deal with KK and GF he will be tens of millions more to keep the series going.

[Jacques]

If a merger didn't happen, then why are all of you putting KK/Champcar to blame?? You don't know what is really going on behind the scenes do you???

There are way to many people on this "CHAMPCAR FORUM" who are willing to let the IRL have it all!!!

The IRL isn't any better off than Champcar IMO.....

This forum has became a place for all of you to celebrate the bomb.....

And, all of this right after Sebring, which was a pretty damn good testing session!!

Who cares right???

Because the hate Unifiers have does not allow them to see things clearly.

[tbyars]

Because the hate Unifiers have does not allow them to see things clearly.

I think that post, in a nutshell, tell us all we need to know about your agenda.

[Jacques]

I think that post, in a nutshell, tell us all we need to know about your agenda.

Once again, unless one agrees with the "one series" view, one is accused of harboring hate or having an agenda.

Read the thread on Autoextremist. You got what you wanted. Now what ?

If the IRL is going to end up with only 9 ovals and 9 previous CART tracks, why couldn't the IRL then fold and join CC and have Indy as a separate track ? No, that option is not viable b/c you demand/want that TG be in control because "we won." Who, then, has an agenda ?

[indycool]

Jacques, I don't think you understand the finances that are driving your series of choice. Self-promotes, track rentals, lowered sanction fees by sharing a weekend with another series.

When it's time to pee on the fire and call in the dogs, i.e., one series, the financially-challenged races and self-promotes and track rentals are no more. Sayonara. Gone. No more screwing around with Ansans and San Joses and Savannahs. It'll be sanction fee, shakes hands and drop the green, the basics again.

[SarahFan]

It'll be sanction fee, shakes hands and drop the green, the basics again.

it will certainly be interesting to see how your critical eye views the new melded series..

[Albert D. Kallal]

Holnda wants compeition and George can't find any takers. he is in serious risk of losing Honda and all the money they pay to the series, keeping Andretti-Green afloat. Honda also stated that they will make it known in the late summer if they return after the 2009 season (which all hinges on compeition which Cosworth can supply). George is running scared and knows that unless he comes up with a killer blow (through Miller's propoganda) or works out a deal with KK and GF he will be tens of millions more to keep the series going.

This makes a heck of a lot os sense as to why we see TG jumping.

When I think about this, since when does TG jump like a frog in a hot tin pan? I can’t EVER REMEMBER TG jumping for anyone, or anything! Even pressure from people like Roger Penske, Chip Ganassi, Rahal, -- nothing , but nothing makes TG jump!! (well, excepting jumping when trying to convince a judge that the assets of champ car should be purchased by the IRL).

No one, but NO one has EVER really called the shots to TG.

Now, we hear of a man all of a sudden jumping 10 ft high, and climbing into a plane to fly halfway across the world to appease Honda? The more I give this thought, the more I see this as a ultimatum coming from Honda to make this happen. It has to be Honda that making TG jump here. Honda gives the IRL power right now (pun intended!!!).

At the end of the day, TG and the IRL can run without Honda. They really can, but there is larger issue here.

Here is the larger (beef) picture:

With Honda gone, what can TG offer to champ car? If Honda goes, then the upper hand shifts back to champ car as the IRL looses their big sugar daddy called Honda.

Honda makes the IRL attractive right now, and Honda has lots of $$$ to give out some very attractive engine leases on Honda’s dime.

No matter how you slice this, there is a power struggle occurring here. TG is playing the Honda card now WHILE HE STILL HAS THE Honda CARD TO HOLD! If TG looses Honda…then he can’t play that card down the road…can he? He can’t offer Honda money next year if Honda is gone…can he?

From a business point of view this is simply the question having a bird in your hand that’s about to fly away, but WHILE that bird is in your hand it can yield you power and dividends that you better use. Once Honda is gone, the Opportunities and dividends that Honda can offer (and give TG control of open wheel racing) are also gone.

TG done business for very long time and realizes that you must realize opportunities in hand that are temporary in time value. Honda is very much so this temporary time limited opportunity that he must utilize.

I kind of wish Robin Miller had pointed this out to me, but then again as I mentioned RM doesn’t seem to understand the business aspect of the racing world very much...

It quite clear now as to why TG is Scrambling here.....

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

[FerrrariF1]

Jacques, I don't think you understand the finances that are driving your series of choice. Self-promotes, track rentals, lowered sanction fees by sharing a weekend with another series.

When it's time to pee on the fire and call in the dogs, i.e., one series, the financially-challenged races and self-promotes and track rentals are no more. Sayonara. Gone. No more screwing around with Ansans and San Joses and Savannahs. It'll be sanction fee, shakes hands and drop the green, the basics again.

Why is the IRL is any better shape? Unless Honda owned Andretti/Green 4 car operation and IRL owned Tony George Vision Racing 3 car team how many cars would the IRL have running? ISC has been dropping IRL money losing events like it's going out of style. So what does the IRL bring the table in reality? One race (Indy) and 10 real cars..... if those Andretti Green alone gets 4.8 mil per year in freebies from George, George pays himself 3.6 mil for his team. Add up the numbers and why is the IRL is better shape? They are both in sad shape and would not have been if George did not peel off on his own. So under a merger with George in control the downward spiral will continue.

The only way it works is both series brings their best 9-10 races, equal ownership between George/KK and GF. DP01 and Turbo Cossies run with the Honda/Dallaras until 2009 when Dallara can make their version of the DP01 car. Honda can bring out their turbo again and we have two chassis with two engines. Write the rules so both combos can run together in 2008. Immed. Hire an independant CEO to run the series, one that has had no part of either series for at least 6-8 years. He hires his own staff.

The engine formula must be turbo and a sleek looking car which the DP01 is.

[jimispeed]

Why is the IRL is any better shape? Unless Honda owned Andretti/Green 4 car operation and IRL owned Tony George Vision Racing 3 car team how many cars would the IRL have running? ISC has been dropping IRL money losing events like it's going out of style. So what does the IRL bring the table in reality? One race (Indy) and 10 real cars..... if those Andretti Green alone gets 4.8 mil per year in freebies from George, George pays himself 3.6 mil for his team. Add up the numbers and why is the IRL is better shape? They are both in sad shape and would not have been if George did not peel off on his own. So under a merger with George in control the downward spiral will continue.

The only way it works is both series brings their best 9-10 races, equal ownership between George/KK and GF. DP01 and Turbo Cossies run with the Honda/Dallaras until 2009 when Dallara can make their version of the DP01 car. Honda can bring out their turbo again and we have two chassis with two engines. Write the rules so both combos can run together in 2008. Immed. Hire an independant CEO to run the series, one that has had no part of either series for at least 6-8 years. He hires his own staff.

The engine formula must be turbo and a sleek looking car which the DP01 is.


That is a nice idea!!

[ChaimWitz]

That is a nice idea!!

It is also a delusional fantasy given the reality of the circumstance. However, it does prove that misery loves company.

[jimispeed]

It is also a delusional fantasy given the reality of the circumstance. However, it does prove that misery loves company.

What do you love?!!

[Albert D. Kallal]

Honda can bring out their turbo again and we have two chassis with two engines.


Wow, now’s there’s a whack issue point!! The fact of the matter is Honda could actually accept and endorse the dp01, and simply slot back in their CART turbo v8 into the dp01. Kind interesting that Honda really don’t have to develop a new engine here, they already have one as you point out!!!

In fact, Honda could buy out, or pay out the engine leases to Cosworth. KK would not care about cosworth if the $$$ from Honda compensated him well.

Honda gets the merger, gets to keep their Honda name on engines, and KK gets a boatload of Money.

However, once again notice how this centers around the fact that Honda has lots of money, and ALSO as you point out a nice turbo engine just sitting around doing nothing.

This just once again feeds back to how important Honda is here in terms of what TG can have and get out of this deal.

As I said, once Honda is gone, then TG don’t have much to offer, but only money out of his own pockets, and that been strained of late. Witness TG dropping of the F1 race due to high sanction fees for example.

So, once again, Honda holds some serious keys, but when they are gone, what does the IRL have left to offer champ car??



The engine formula must be turbo and a sleek looking car which the DP01 is.

Yes, send this man a beer!!!

I could live with the loss of Cosworth, but I much owe my watching of F1 to Cosworth, and it marvelous history in f1. I already miss Cosworth in F1, and I *could* live without Cosworth in champ car if they simply plugged in the Honda turbos into the dp01.

The way I see this is that the IRL needs honda a lot more then champ car needs the IRL....

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

[elan 02]

Have to say IMO desperate men make desperate moves TG is looking at a small grid this year ,he lost SH,DF, Danic and Marco can't carry it. Tonys good
Helio is their star. They need CC. TG mite have paid rm some good bucks to spin this one. A few want to throw Sanguin under the bus ,but he is just holding his ground and I can respect that.

[heelntoe]

Have to say IMO desperate men make desperate moves TG is looking at a small grid this year ,he lost SH,DF, Danic and Marco can't carry it. Tonys good
Helio is their star. They need CC. TG mite have paid rm some good bucks to spin this one. A few want to throw Sanguin under the bus ,but he is just holding his ground and I can respect that.

What a pile of bunk that post is! CCWS would have shut down if this deal hadn't been pursued. It's already all over the place that Derrick Walker applied for IMS team support in January and had made the decision to move back in November...and now, we're hearing that NHL was also gone and another team was also out (not sure who that team is yet). Sanguin is holding his ground because that's his agenda, not one based on fact, business or practicality. This sport is in serious trouble and the Amigos simply couldn't endure the financial requirement of trying to turn around US OW racing.