Indycool, break it down for me please

[CHAMPMOM]

I have been reviewing these boards looking for info on the "merger" talks, if there is ANY truth to it or any hopes or FACTS that it may actually happen. While I don't always agree with you, I do respect your opinions and I'd like your take on what is actually happening or not happening.

Others, please don't jump ugly. :)

Thanks! CHAMPMOM

[nanders]

they're coming out of the woodwork today ... I haven't seen so many "old" posters in a long time :)

[CHAMPMOM]

they're coming out of the woodwork today ... I haven't seen so many "old" posters in a long time :)

Hey, I'm not "old", just experienced!

I just want a straight answer, and Indycool seems to say it like it is, and I like that.

[cartpix]

Good to see you ChampMom. Unlike Niles, I'd NEVER call you old. :-)

Jeff

[Chaparral66]

CHAMPMOM, check IndyStar.com for info, they like Robin Miller at SPEEDTV.com are more clued in than most. Indycool might also be able to tell you what being said on Indy radio...

[Chaparral66]

Good to see you ChampMom. Unlike Niles, I'd NEVER call you old. :-)

Jeff

Dude, you are a wolf in sheep's clothing... ;)

[cartpix]

Dude, you are a wolf in sheep's clothing... ;)

Woof woof...er...I mean Baaa Baaa

Jeff

[indycool]

CHAMP MOM, thank you for your respect, even though we do disagree at times. I also respect your posts and the stands you sometimes take, even if I do disagree.

Best I can tell, Robin Miller has the story right. I'm just guessing, but what may have started it all was when the IRL announced its TEAM subsidy of $1.2m per car per season, because several CC car owners are known to have looked into it. Quite possibly, some said to The Amigos, "Hey, I'll keep running with you but I need $1.25 million per car to do so."

Somehow, the two sides got together for discussions in November and December. While this was going on, CC waited forever to announce a schedule, and talks may have broken down at some point. Miller didn't catch wind of it and report it until late January so it was pretty much undercover. There are a lot of ways that Robin could have gotten the word from either the CC or IRL camps or suppliers or promoters, so I wouldn't really hazard a guess how. Robin is constantly around racing people and has been all his life, from team janitors to the top. Once it was out of the bag a couple weeks ago, it became known that the CC car owners didn't know talks were going on.

Miller stayed with the story and came out with details last night and TG, Eidswick and Robert Clarke are going to Japan Saturday and see what they can do about the Motegi and Long Beach dates to effect the "melding" of the series. It appears that is the only factor of consequence undecided to make it happen, at least from what seems to be known or reported.

The CC position of silence of "melding" talks to its car owners, who happily toddled on down to Sebring to spend their money testing, didn't really sit very well. That's what I get out of the quotes I have read in stories from Paul Newman, Jimmy Vasser, Eric Bachelart (who complains he just bought $1m of another DP-01 and other equipment) and Carl Haas, who expressed in different ways that the details they've been told about the "melding" is something that should happen. Forsythe, Gentilozzi and Petit haven't said anything on the record and KK has bad-mouthed those who reported the talks he was trying to keep secret in order to try to hold on to his car owners in case the deal DOESN'T go through.

That's the best I know or have read, have connected dots, or best-guessed at this point, CHAMP MOM. Guess we now wait and see what happens in Japan. With the date change, the meeting is supposedly Monday. But when the checkered finally falls on this exercise, I'd expect a whole lot of motion.

[weeflyonthewall]

CHAMPMOM, check IndyStar.com for info, they like Robin Miller at SPEEDTV.com are more clued in than most. Indycool might also be able to tell you what being said on Indy radio...

The gurney has very squeaky wheels these days. The big question is who is on it? NEWSFLASH - - - F1 speculators want Bernie to bid on Long Beach and Surfers.

[indycool]

CHAMP MOM, this is probably of interest to you.....the National Post has a story on it that's pretty fresh that looks like it came from the Edmonton Journal.

http://www.nationalpost.com/sports/story.html?id=296003

[maddog76]

CHAMP MOM, thank you for your respect, even though we do disagree at times. I also respect your posts and the stands you sometimes take, even if I do disagree.

Best I can tell, Robin Miller has the story right. I'm just guessing, but what may have started it all was when the IRL announced its TEAM subsidy of $1.2m per car per season, because several CC car owners are known to have looked into it. Quite possibly, some said to The Amigos, "Hey, I'll keep running with you but I need $1.25 million per car to do so."

Somehow, the two sides got together for discussions in November and December. While this was going on, CC waited forever to announce a schedule, and talks may have broken down at some point. Miller didn't catch wind of it and report it until late January so it was pretty much undercover. There are a lot of ways that Robin could have gotten the word from either the CC or IRL camps or suppliers or promoters, so I wouldn't really hazard a guess how. Robin is constantly around racing people and has been all his life, from team janitors to the top. Once it was out of the bag a couple weeks ago, it became known that the CC car owners didn't know talks were going on.

Miller stayed with the story and came out with details last night and TG, Eidswick and Robert Clarke are going to Japan Saturday and see what they can do about the Motegi and Long Beach dates to effect the "melding" of the series. It appears that is the only factor of consequence undecided to make it happen, at least from what seems to be known or reported.

The CC position of silence of "melding" talks to its car owners, who happily toddled on down to Sebring to spend their money testing, didn't really sit very well. That's what I get out of the quotes I have read in stories from Paul Newman, Jimmy Vasser, Eric Bachelart (who complains he just bought $1m of another DP-01 and other equipment) and Carl Haas, who expressed in different ways that the details they've been told about the "melding" is something that should happen. Forsythe, Gentilozzi and Petit haven't said anything on the record and KK has bad-mouthed those who reported the talks he was trying to keep secret in order to try to hold on to his car owners in case the deal DOESN'T go through.

That's the best I know or have read, have connected dots, or best-guessed at this point, CHAMP MOM. Guess we now wait and see what happens in Japan. With the date change, the meeting is supposedly Monday. But when the checkered finally falls on this exercise, I'd expect a whole lot of motion.

I have a question Indycool. Is the IRL still gonna pay you to spread rumors about CC after the merger?

[CCWS77]

Nice attempted analysis except that Miller quoted TG as saying no CC teams had wanted to switch even with his help. If that is true it is hard to believe that pressure from teams is causing this. Why would TG announce that offer is ended and then go on with talks with CC owners? The owner of conquest just said KK assured him 2008 would go on. But KK also just said he had no talks with TG. But Walker indicated he did talk with TG and voila he is the only team not at Sebring. Who the hell can figure out what is going on? I think different people may be stabbing each other in the back all over the place here and TG is handing out the knives because it always occurs after they talk to him.

[Cart750hp]

Nice attempted analysis except that Miller quoted TG as saying no CC teams had wanted to switch even with his help. If that is true it is hard to believe that pressure from teams is causing this. Why would TG announce that offer is ended and then go on with talks with CC owners? The owner of conquest just said KK assured him 2008 would go on. But KK also just said he had no talks with TG. But Walker indicated he did talk with TG and voila he is the only team not at Sebring. Who the hell can figure out what is going on? I think different people may be stabbing each other in the back all over the place here and TG is handing out the knives because it always occurs after they talk to him.

CCWS77, obviously, there is a talk that is going on or went on. CC will say what they need to keep it low on their end and will have to say what they needed to say just to keep it confidential. Remember, CC owners have Cosworth, Long Beach, Toronto and Edmonton on their asset. That it doesn't matter how this talk will end, CC owners will still get their good share. TG on the other hand will have to do the "work" since he's expected to take over the ownership and control of both series. Those quotes lately from the CC teams, this is no doubt that there is a huge thing coming to both series. Teams willing to jump over, drivers saying "we need to be one series", and owners texting to each other is a very good sign. The only question later is...did they get it right this time?

I guess that would be anyone's guess.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

The gurney has very squeaky wheels these days. The big question is who is on it? NEWSFLASH - - - F1 speculators want Bernie to bid on Long Beach and Surfers.

I think it would be fantastic to see Ferraris and McLarens in Long Beach instead of the crapwagons, but unfortunately, it is owned by Kalkhoven and Forsythe and they want to apport it into the IRL. I hope Bernie at least gives it a try.

[indycool]

When Bernie can get $25-30 million from Arab oil sheiks to bring F1 to the Middle East, Long Beach would be extremely hard-pressed to match that. IMS couldn't and make business sense of it.

[sanguin]

Actually what is going on is that the IRL spokes person keeps telling the press that they are working on getting CC events ,when actually they aren't getting anything. They keep reporting that TG will be in charge and they will use dallaras and none of that is true.

There is no offer and no agreement.TG may be going to Japan, but it doesn't mean the IRL will be at LB. It looks like desperation on TG's part.

Interesting article about Toronto-

"Champ Car co-owner Kevin Kalkhoven was more blunt, calling any talk of Toronto not happening "pointless and completely unfounded."


"But Kalkhoven insisted that talk of juggling race dates is premature, saying some significant hurdles remain and no specifics have been agreed on. He also said the leaks through the media have hampered discussions.

"We have been talking for the past four years and there have been offers, but nothing specific yet," he said. "The truth is that there are still some insurmountable obstacles."

TG wants to keep telling everyone that he is going forward in a manner that has him in charge. That is a lie. KK keeps telling everyone nothing is in the works and the IRL gets nothing. Even if TG moved Motegi ,there is still lots to negotiate, the cars, engines, feeder series, other events,everything. This is far from being done and there is no reason to believe TG will be in charge. KK and GF have not given the IRL anything.

I just hope TG isn't using this to try to prop up his 500 and the IRL by promising things that haven't occurred. Last time he did that, it backfired, Red Bull and Mechachrome thought the IRL would have LB and Toronto when they joined the IRL, it didn't happen and they left. Then there are all the tracks the IRL took over from CC/Champ Car, that have been lost.

The truth is Champ Car will continue with its announced schedule just as planned for 2008.

The IRL is not part of those plans at this time or the near future.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080209.AUTO09/TPStory/Sports

[indycool]

Actually, the IRL spokesperson has told the press no details at all.

Actually, KK is talking out of both sides of his mouth and is going to isolate himself into a corner because CC's car owners aren't all that happy with not being aware that "melding" talks were going on and if it's what Miller said it is, the car owners thought it was a good thing.....quoth Paul Newman, Carl Haas, Derrick Walker, Jimmy Vasser and Eric Bachelart (after the talks were going on and he was induced into buying $1m in a new DP-01 and equipment).

IMO, KK better understand that he is a venture capitalist who has carpetbagged on to something that's cost him a lot of money and all his huffing and puffing now doesn't make him a true member of the racing community.

Compare this one:

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080208/SPORTS0107/802080490/1247/SPORTS

[sanguin]

Actually, the IRL spokesperson has told the press no details at all.

Actually, KK is talking out of both sides of his mouth and is going to isolate himself into a corner because CC's car owners aren't all that happy with not being aware that "melding" talks were going on and if it's what Miller said it is, the car owners thought it was a good thing.....quoth Paul Newman, Carl Haas, Derrick Walker, Jimmy Vasser and Eric Bachelart (after the talks were going on and he was induced into buying $1m in a new DP-01 and equipment).

Robin called the teams and told them his story which is bogus.Robin is the one who blew it, now KK has to keep telling everyone that CC is going ahead as planned and there are no agreements. TG can go to Japan all he wants ,that doesn't mean anything and it doesn't mean he will get or be at LB. It's only a starting point for negotiations. There is nothing about who is in charge,or cars or events. Therefore this grandstanding is a lie.I believe they are trying to denigrate CC and prop up their own series.

TG does not hold the cards.

[indycool]

After this, sanguin, you can get the last word on this thread however you wish.

There are three other owners of CC besides KK. Haven't heard a word about what they have to say yet. It is very possible that TG has. It is very possible that KK's blustering about the press being bad guys and all is just because he's lost a lot of money and he's not going to get it back.

I don't think TG and Dick Eidswick are going together with Robert Clarke to Japan today just for show.

As far as Miller's story goes, I DO believe the gist of it. You believe whatever KK quotes you want to believe.

[Andrewmcm]

Actually, the IRL spokesperson has told the press no details at all.

Actually, KK is talking out of both sides of his mouth and is going to isolate himself into a corner because CC's car owners aren't all that happy with not being aware that "melding" talks were going on and if it's what Miller said it is, the car owners thought it was a good thing.....quoth Paul Newman, Carl Haas, Derrick Walker, Jimmy Vasser and Eric Bachelart (after the talks were going on and he was induced into buying $1m in a new DP-01 and equipment).

IMO, KK better understand that he is a venture capitalist who has carpetbagged on to something that's cost him a lot of money and all his huffing and puffing now doesn't make him a true member of the racing community.

Compare this one:

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080208/SPORTS0107/802080490/1247/SPORTS


So let's say this unification doesn't happen. How many CCWS teams will be able to trust what KK says from now on, seeing as he's given out conflicting quotes in quick succession as to whether or not talks with the IRL were going on?

Seriously, if I were a CCWS team owner I'd be thinking about taking George's offer and leaving KK et al. to ruin their house on their own.

[sanguin]

After this, sanguin, you can get the last word on this thread however you wish.

There are three other owners of CC besides KK. Haven't heard a word about what they have to say yet. It is very possible that TG has. It is very possible that KK's blustering about the press being bad guys and all is just because he's lost a lot of money and he's not going to get it back.

I don't think TG and Dick Eidswick are going together with Robert Clarke to Japan today just for show.

As far as Miller's story goes, I DO believe the gist of it. You believe whatever KK quotes you want to believe.

I believe TG and honda are going to Japan to move Motegi to get the talks started. Unless they are offering a big pile of cash, which they could do,I don't see that anything will be done for 2008. There is no agreement about cars or events. I also believe that getting GF to agree to much of this will be the sticking point. The owners will make sure they get the best possible deal out of this monetarily or business wise.TG will be doing most of the compromising as he needs this to save his race and league. I don't see anything happening until 2009. IMO.

BTW, if TG does take over OW, however its done, I will no longer be a fan and will watch OW die under TG's watch.

[indycool]

As I said, I'm done playing with you in this sandbox.

[sanguin]

Here's another article-

"One Champ Car source went so far as to suggest the IRL is trying to “sabotage” Champ Car’s 2008 season and that there is no way negotiations can be completed by the Long Beach race in April."

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080209/FREE/556326215/1024

There is no way GF and KK are going to let any agreement write off Cosworth or the DP01.IMO You can forget about those ugly old dallaras.

Also the is a rumor -"A very, very credible poster at TF with ties to many many teams over the years has said today that NHL has been doing wind tunnel testing with the DP01 in super speedway trim over the winter."

[heelntoe]

Here's another article-

"One Champ Car source went so far as to suggest the IRL is trying to “sabotage” Champ Car’s 2008 season and that there is no way negotiations can be completed by the Long Beach race in April."

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080209/FREE/556326215/1024

There is no way GF and KK are going to let any agreement write off Cosworth or the DP01.IMO You can forget about those ugly old dallaras.

Also the is a rumor -"A very, very credible poster at TF with ties to many many teams over the years has said today that NHL has been doing wind tunnel testing with the DP01 in super speedway trim over the winter."

Well, I guess once this deal is done and done the way it should be, you won't be watching US OW anymore, and please, please don't let the door hit ya', and please, please don't take the blind enthusiasm somewhere you might regret.

[SarahFan]

Actually, KK is talking out of both sides of his mouth and is going to isolate himself into a corner because CC's car owners aren't all that happy with not being aware that "melding" talks were going on and if it's what Miller said it is, the car owners thought it was a good thing.....]

can you give a single plausible good reason that KK etc would go to the teams with TG offer of 1.2 mil, chassis and engines without having something concrete on paper ready to sign that protected there investment in LB, To Cosworth etc.....?


it would make absolutly no sense whatsoever for Kk to do so....

[dataman1]

So let's say this unification doesn't happen. How many CCWS teams will be able to trust what KK says from now on, seeing as he's given out conflicting quotes in quick succession as to whether or not talks with the IRL were going on?

Seriously, if I were a CCWS team owner I'd be thinking about taking George's offer and leaving KK et al. to ruin their house on their own.


IMO this is exactly what will make this happen this year. Again, IMO, IF one 2 car team were to jump on the offer, CCWS would be history. Why? KK & GF are tired of spending money without seeing a light at the end of the tunnel and that is why they have talked with TG. KK states in the INDYSTAR piece that if he and GF come out OK then this is a go. So if one 2 car team jumps, KK & GF would have to spend more cash to prop up the series to get a decent car count. I really don't think they will do that. So, CCWS is toast. Yeh, they might try to race with 15-16 cars but the fans won't buy tickets. The teams won't have their heart in it to win. There will be no pride left in anyone who works with CCWS.

IMO, IF and this IF is one of the biggest, TG and group come back from Japan with a deal to move that race to the fall and match it up with dates for one or 2 of the overseas races from CCWS, then I bet we unify. The next step to protect themselves will be for KK & GF to put CCWS into bankruptcy to save themselves from the race tracks and contracts not honored in 2008. Let the courts deal with the law suits.

Just one person's opinion. Sorry, No links.

[tbyars]

Also the is a rumor -"A very, very credible poster at TF with ties to many many teams over the years has said today that NHL has been doing wind tunnel testing with the DP01 in super speedway trim over the winter."

In that case, CCWS should severly fine or suspend NHL. The CCWS rule book clearly states that wind tunnel testing on the DP-01 is forbidden.

Of course, if CCWS were to go away.....

And the poster who made that statement is nothing but a CCWS fan. I see NOTHING in anything he has ever posted that he has connections.

[CHAMPMOM]

Indycool, Thank you for the information, links and your thoughts of what is taking place between IRL/Champcar.

From all that I have read, along with what you've written it's just a "wait and see" what happens.

I personally don't buy the line that "just because Robin Miller broke the story the deal is off" that others have stated. I can understand that they would want to keep it quiet, but it shouldn't be a deal killer. I personally think that things like that are said to buy more time. Over the years, Robin has been fairly acurate.

Well, let hope that they can get it together, set the all of the egos outside the door and negotiate an agreement that will satisfy the Owners, Drivers and fans.

I haven't been a big fan of unification in the past, however, I believe it is now necessary if we want Open Wheel racing to survive.

Thanks again for you time and thoughts! :)

[EagleEye]

Robin called the teams and told them his story which is bogus.Robin is the one who blew it, now KK has to keep telling everyone that CC is going ahead as planned and there are no agreements. TG can go to Japan all he wants ,that doesn't mean anything and it doesn't mean he will get or be at LB. It's only a starting point for negotiations. There is nothing about who is in charge,or cars or events. Therefore this grandstanding is a lie.I believe they are trying to denigrate CC and prop up their own series.

TG does not hold the cards.


You've been asked multiple times who you have talked to in the last week/year/years, and have yet to indicate you have talked with ANYONE involved in either series. In fact, ever post copies a thread or someone else report or portion there of to try and give you any credibility. To be frank, you have none. (And Starter, that is not a degrading remark, just a fact based on the poster past.)

I have talked to multiple owners, drivers, promoters, sponsors and people at ABC over my lifetime and especially in the last few weeks. ABC, who PAYS the IRL for the rights to televise races, has been pushing for one series since the beginning. They believe that could make more money with a unified than they current do getting PAID by CC.

I correctly reported the lawsuits last year, the Phoenix and Las Vegas races going away, TC's announcement (though I had said it would be in December), Wilson going to NHL (back in June). The only thing that changed was NHL going with CC in '08. They won't be back in 2009....Prior to that I indicated that Gelles anf Antonio Ferrari were not going to be in the series, and that Conquest would not be a two car team in ’07. A quick check of your posts would indicate you opinions fell short a good 75% of the time. And yet you keep the reposts going…..

I suppose you could tell me which owner, has just decided to go to the IRL if the merger does not take place? Not a stretch, based on who was and wasn’t in Sebring. But the point is did you talk to anyone directly? Have you EVER talked to anyone directly?

Instead of shooting the messenger, which is your only value here, maybe give a bit more credit to those who are trying t present what is going on.

And despite what is being reported on AR1, it is not over for a long shot. It might be a bit convoluted, but maybe you should call someone and try to back your comments up with some facts, instead of just trotting out threads and reports from other sites. Try be a source, instead of a being such a pain.

I’ve written tons of negative things about Tony George, especially in the very beginning. Now, Tony is the one doing the most to get this thing together. You can call it desperation, you can all it control. I applaud the actions and the kind of “outside the box” thinking that is taking place, to bring this thing together. The IRL, had increased TV ratings last year, good crowds at most events, had the #1 watched and attended open wheel race in the US, gets paid by a network for TV rights, has more top open wheel teams, drivers, sponsors and exposure and promotion than Champcar. Sorry, sport, TG holds ALL the cards at the momment, just as CART held all the cards back in the late 90's.

The product on the track, for BOTH series is quite strong, and IF there were one series, the potential is tremendous. People on both sides, want one series (Save for Eric at the moment) and the fact that you continue bash Honda’s commitment is absurd.

Again, unless you contact someone DIRECTLY, don’t even bother to respond.

[tbyars]

Again, unless you contact someone DIRECTLY, don’t even bother to respond.

Don't worry, EE, he won't. That is the kind of post he just ignores.

[indycool]

You're welcome, CHAMPMOM....best I know or dots I can connect....there's probably plenty of backroom stuff that none of us know about.

But I certainly agree with the rest of your post....one series for all.

[OWFan19]

http://www.champcarfanatics.com/photopost/data/500/moving.jpg

[indycool]

I was just asked in a PM where I got the idea that Eidswick went to Japan with TG and Clarke. Now I can't find it, so I PM'd a friend who would know. The friend said Eidswick did NOT go to Japan with 'em. My bad. Sorry.

[SoCalPVguy]

(First, BTW, EE, great rebuke to sanguin)

My theory is that our moderator, Mr. Starter, is also Sanguin, and he posts all that unbelievable crapola just to keep the mesage boards "juiced up" if you will, and stirs the pot to keep readership and replies up.

Well maybe not *LOL*, but how else can I rationalize the sangine one's posting history to date.

Having read all sources available, my opinion is that is not dead yet and we will know more on Monday or so, but that CCWS is so far gone financially, and with the threat of only one team defecting as I wrote previously, it has to go through now or there won't be a 2008 season in full.

BTW, My $5 bet challenge is still up !!!

[garyshell]

I don't think we will know a thing before Tuesday when "...King George" and Clarke return from Japan.

Gary

[Cart750hp]

I don't think we will know a thing before Tuesday when "...King George" and Clarke return from Japan.

Gary


Looking forward to it, Gary.

[Colt21]

And despite what is being reported on AR1, it is not over for a long shot. It might be a bit convoluted, but maybe you should call someone and try to back your comments up with some facts, instead of just trotting out threads and reports from other sites. Try be a source, instead of a being such a pain.



Yep, AR1 has flagged this from false to "Strong" again. We've been told to get two different sets of cars ready....

[Albert D. Kallal]

So let's say this unification doesn't happen. How many CCWS teams will be able to trust what KK says from now on, seeing as he's given out conflicting quotes in quick succession as to whether or not talks with the IRL were going on?


KK NEVER EVER denied at ANY point in time that talks with the IRL were not occurring. NEVER EVER did he do this. In fact KK stated talks have been ongoing for 4 or more years now.

There’s not a person on the planet earth I know of that would deny that talks were NEVER occurring between the IRL and CCWS. K.K. has repeatedly, consistently, and stated MANY times over the years that talks are always occurring and that there always open to ideas for merging.

And of course repeatedly over the years when press releases reach fever pitch of rumors, KK often had to make public statement that nothing concrete has occurred yet.

I cannot remember in the last 4-5 years that KK EVER took ANY different position than what has transpired in the last little while.

Virtually every fan, team, and just about every person on the planet earth knows that some kind of talks have been ongoing over the last several years between champ car and the IRL. How can you possibly stand here and tell me that someone’s denying that this is occurring, but virtually every person on the planet knows talks have been occurring? And furthermore KK's NEVER denied talks were on going.

You’re going to have to find find me a very high quality and very well referenced quote that shows KK is denying that talks were not occurring in the last 4-5 years. I’ve never seen that quote anywhere.

Why would you call it mistrust of something that everybody on planet earth knows that talks have been occurring in the last four to five years? And, somting that KK's NEVER denied?

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

[indycool]

Albert, read the link on post #16.

[Albert D. Kallal]

Albert, read the link on post #16.

I did, and no where does that post and article state that KK is denying talks have been ongoing? Where does it say, or support that?

The point being made here, and my response was to someone claiming that KK is somehow denying that talks have been ongoing. That link/post in #16 changes nothing of what I said, and furthermore does not shore up, state, authenticate, substantiate, corroborate, validate, bear out, prove or show any reasonable intelligent argument that KK is denying talks have been occurring.

KK has ALWAYS stated and always repeated that he is open to talking working with the IRL, and has said that talks have been ongoing for more than four years in one form or a another (and in some cases with zero progress and zero results).

KK has always said he is open to some type of dialog occurng in a ongoing basis with the IRL, and has never denied that.

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

[indycool]

I can no longer find it, because it's been edited out of two stories that I saw it in, but initially, right after Miller's column came out, KK was quoted as saying, "We haven't seen any offer. We've seen nothing in writing."

That, to me, is a denial.

[call_me_andrew]

http://www.champcarfanatics.com/photopost/data/500/moving.jpg

That's gotta be a fake. I'm almost certain that Champ Car's offices look more like this.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/31/36922943_12a9814a28.jpg

[vintage]

If this happens, let's hope they get rid of at least half of the "filler" no-attendance ovals on the IRL side, and include at least half of the great races on the Champ Car side - Long Beach, Cleveland, Toronto, and Road America to name a few.

Funny that if it happens, we'll end up with exactly what we had before the IRL came up with it's "solution" - you remember - American drivers on ovals - we'll have a bunch of foreign drivers with leased engines driving on ovals and road courses - Thanks for the years of misery, Tony!

[nanders]

I can no longer find it, because it's been edited out of two stories that I saw it in, but initially, right after Miller's column came out, KK was quoted as saying, "We haven't seen any offer. We've seen nothing in writing."

That, to me, is a denial.

That article disappeared. But that's what he said.

I tried to follow a link from autoracing1 and that article is gone. Speed's web site has changed it's architecture since that article.

[nanders]

If this happens, let's hope they get rid of at least half of the "filler" no-attendance ovals on the IRL side, and include at least half of the great races on the Champ Car side - Long Beach, Cleveland, Toronto, and Road America to name a few.

Funny that if it happens, we'll end up with exactly what we had before the IRL came up with it's "solution" - you remember - American drivers on ovals - we'll have a bunch of foreign drivers with leased engines driving on ovals and road courses - Thanks for the years of misery, Tony!

It does make me wonder about leaving Toronto off the list. They did lose a sponsor and were asking for government help ... so it's probably easy to cross it off.

[garyshell]

I can no longer find it, because it's been edited out of two stories that I saw it in, but initially, right after Miller's column came out, KK was quoted as saying, "We haven't seen any offer. We've seen nothing in writing."

That, to me, is a denial.


Take it at face value, nothing in writing. It's lawyer speak. A pure technical answer. A very CAREFULLY crafted technical answer.

Gary

[indycool]

I agree totally, Gary, and I read it initially like you did, very carefully, and that "carefully crafted" statement was TRYING to be a denial without doing so. It was trying to create a false impression.

[indycool]

nanders, albert, I found it. The first two sentences of it were the only ones in the original stories. What starts with "Gerald and I...." has been tacked on to the end and was stated at a different time.

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/champcar/news/159523-1/merger_talks_stall.html

[Chaparral66]

nanders, albert, I found it. The first two sentences of it were the only ones in the original stories. What starts with "Gerald and I...." has been tacked on to the end and was stated at a different time.

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/champcar/news/159523-1/merger_talks_stall.html

Seems like everyone is keeping their hand close to the vest until the "i's" are dotted and "t's" are crossed.

[CHAMPMOM]

How long do you think we will have to wait until we hear something?

Do you think it will be leaked or a formal announcement will be made?

[Latka Gravitz]

No, doesn't look fake at all. But the trees would indicate that this particular photo was taken in Spring or Summer. What day is it?

[indycool]

I would guess there are some i's to dot and some t's to cross.....the only words coming out of Japan seem to be "optimistic."

RM has apparently stuck with it as closely as anyone......

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/champ-car-heading-for-bankruptcy/

[Mark]

No, doesn't look fake at all.

You're joking right? It's about as fake as you can get.
The lighting is all wrong, the lorry is in the wrong place and parked on the grass and they wouldn't be taking stuff out the front door, they'd have a loading bay or similar.

Really I could put that picture together myself and I suck at that stuff :p

[nanders]

You're joking right? It's about as fake as you can get.
The lighting is all wrong, the lorry is in the wrong place and parked on the grass and they wouldn't be taking stuff out the front door, they'd have a loading bay or similar.

Really I could put that picture together myself and I suck at that stuff :p

Well, it maybe fake but by tomorrow it will probably be real. ;)

[Mark]

teehee :D :p

[Latka Gravitz]

Teehee, indeed!

[tbyars]

You're joking right? It's about as fake as you can get.
The lighting is all wrong, the lorry is in the wrong place and parked on the grass and they wouldn't be taking stuff out the front door, they'd have a loading bay or similar.

Really I could put that picture together myself and I suck at that stuff :p

Absolutely, Mark. In addition to the lighting (always the first give-away), all it takes is about a 4x enlargement to easily see the pixel distortion where the van was cropped in.

[Chaparral66]

Optimistic is the best we're going to get I guess, until something concrete comes out of Indianapolis...

[indycool]

I get the impression it'll be a few days before we really know anything, although Robin went on radio here in Indy today with some wild flings. TG heads for England Wednesday-Sunday for a wedding. I'd think people would remain talkin' in that circumstance to try to work things out, but I wouldn't think anything could be finalized this week.

[Chaparral66]

I get the impression it'll be a few days before we really know anything, although Robin went on radio here in Indy today with some wild flings. TG heads for England Wednesday-Sunday for a wedding. I'd think people would remain talkin' in that circumstance to try to work things out, but I wouldn't think anything could be finalized this week.

This kind of agreement -- no matter how quickly everyone wants to get it done -- is a complicated process. There are way too many selfish issues to reconcile - such as venues each series race on - for it to be done in a week's time. I hope they continue talking and work out everything to the mutual satisfaction of both series, but to try to jam it through for this season is, IMHO, unrealistic.

[indycool]

Chap, that depends on money. RM has a piece saying CC may go into bankruptcy. If that's the case, nobody in CC is racin'. That AP story on another page quoting Walker as saying '07 prize money wasn't paid to several teams.......RM's story about a $300,000 suit by the company that fixed all the fuel cells a year ago.......the Chinese promoter's suit is still alive.....I'm sure we don't really know when The Amigos' well runs dry on CC.

[Chaparral66]

I understand that, IC, all I meant was that if a "fair and equitable agreement" (whatever that is) could be worked out, that would, and should, take time. If CC does declare bankruptcy, that could cut through a lot of red tape toward having a season where all teams race together; but wouldn't the Amigos, meaning KK and GF, both billionaires several times over, be personally responsonsible for any unpaid bills that were contracted in good faith (again, whatever that means)?

[indycool]

I'm no lawyer, Chap, but those guys are well-insulated from their personal fortunes by layers and layers of LLCs. Each of the first three Amigos formed an LLC to form a bigger LLC in OWRS, which formed an LLC in CC.

[Chaparral66]

I'm no lawyer, Chap, but those guys are well-insulated from their personal fortunes by layers and layers of LLCs. Each of the first three Amigos formed an LLC to form a bigger LLC in OWRS, which formed an LLC in CC.

IC, can you define what LLC exactly means, so I can better understand your point about them?

[tbyars]

IC, can you define what LLC exactly means, so I can better understand your point about them?

"A limited liability company, commonly called an "LLC," is a business structure that combines the pass-through taxation of a partnership or sole proprietorship with the limited liability of a corporation.

Like owners of partnerships or sole proprietorships, LLC owners report business profits or losses on their personal income tax returns; the LLC itself is not a separate taxable entity. Like owners of a corporation, however, all LLC owners are protected from personal liability for business debts and claims -- a feature known as "limited liability." This means that if the business owes money or faces a lawsuit for some other reason, only the assets of the business itself are at risk. Creditors usually can't reach the personal assets of the LLC owners, such as a house or car. (Both LLC owners and corporate shareholders can lose this protection by acting illegally, unethically, or irresponsibly.)

For these reasons, many people say the LLC combines the best features of the partnership and corporate business structures."

http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/objectID/ED01121A-B4BF-498A-8BC0DBD121A0C869/111/182/245/FAQ/

One other thing that is important to this, Chap, is that in LLCs, the members can be people, corporations or even other LLCs. In other words, you can actually embed LLC's inside of other LLCs, as I understand it.

[Alexamateo]

Limited Liability Company (http://www.limitedliabilitycompanycenter.com/index.html)

LLC's in general offer the limited liability of a corporation with the tax advantages of a partnership or sole proprietorship.


Edit: tbyars beat me to the punch by two minutes!

[Chaparral66]

"A limited liability company, commonly called an "LLC," is a business structure that combines the pass-through taxation of a partnership or sole proprietorship with the limited liability of a corporation.

Like owners of partnerships or sole proprietorships, LLC owners report business profits or losses on their personal income tax returns; the LLC itself is not a separate taxable entity. Like owners of a corporation, however, all LLC owners are protected from personal liability for business debts and claims -- a feature known as "limited liability." This means that if the business owes money or faces a lawsuit for some other reason, only the assets of the business itself are at risk. Creditors usually can't reach the personal assets of the LLC owners, such as a house or car. (Both LLC owners and corporate shareholders can lose this protection by acting illegally, unethically, or irresponsibly.)

For these reasons, many people say the LLC combines the best features of the partnership and corporate business structures."

http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/objectID/ED01121A-B4BF-498A-8BC0DBD121A0C869/111/182/245/FAQ/

One other thing that is important to this, Chap, is that in LLCs, the members can be people, corporations or even other LLCs. In other words, you can actually embed LLC's inside of other LLCs, as I understand it.

Which is obviously what the Amigos did, according you, and Indycool. So now, the bottom line is, no matter how incompetent The Amigos have been, no matter how many jobs are lost and companies go under as a result of Champ Car not following through on committments for this season, they will essentially get off without so much as a slap on the wrist. This is said with complete respects to all the money they put into the series since 2004; but with this merger being railroaded through by Tony George without regard to the long term repercussions of the ensuing chaos, and TG not being liable for any Champ Car contracts, what is the sport going to be like once the dust settles? This is scary stuff. What will the fans' reaction be? Do they (we) want a sport that came together basically by force? A mere shattered dream of its former self? The sport may come together soon, but it will still be on life support for sometime.

[Chaparral66]

By the way, thanks to TB and Alex for the excellent explanation.

[Cart750hp]

As more interviews and quotes coming out of the amigos, drivers and team owners, is it just me or what...but it looks like a huge financial misunderstanding is how this merger to IRL got started. Trying to get the picture her but this doesn't look like it just started early this year but more of like last year. The smoke was coming out of the CC office early last year and no one bothered to put out the fire.

[indycool]

Yep, Chap, they explained it better than I could've. I still don't think a melding of these two series is a disaster. A disaster would be for CC just to go belly-up, period. If some kind of melding of the two takes place, the SPORT wins.

Fan reactions? Hardcore CC fans, including the CW group, would probably be POed for decades. For some, it isn't even the racing that matters, but the fight. But the hardcores on either side are the ones on the chatrooms and they're loud, and some of them are even nasty and hate-filled, and some of them WON'T adjust, but the NUMBER of them is very low compared to the big picture.

[nanders]

Yep, Chap, they explained it better than I could've. I still don't think a melding of these two series is a disaster. A disaster would be for CC just to go belly-up, period. If some kind of melding of the two takes place, the SPORT wins.

Fan reactions? Hardcore CC fans, including the CW group, would probably be POed for decades. For some, it isn't even the racing that matters, but the fight. But the hardcores on either side are the ones on the chatrooms and they're loud, and some of them are even nasty and hate-filled, and some of them WON'T adjust, but the NUMBER of them is very low compared to the big picture.

At the risk of having a "Pollyanna" tag hung on me ;) , I reckon, by the end of 2010 there will have been a resurgence of interest in AOWR.

[garyshell]

At the risk of having a "Pollyanna" tag hung on me ;) , I reckon, by the end of 2010 there will have been a resurgence of interest in AOWR.


Nanders,

I don't think there is anything "pollyannish" in that hope.


American Heritage Dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4.html)
Pollyanna
n. A person regarded as being foolishly or blindly optimistic.


Gary

[CHAMPMOM]

For the most part, I think that most of us just want a viable, competitive, open wheel racing series that will sell out every venue, leaving the fans wanting more.

[indycool]

What Gary and CHAMPMOM said.....

[SarahFan]

For the most part, I think that most of us just want a viable, competitive, open wheel racing series that will sell out every venue, leaving the fans wanting more.


I could really care less about TV ratings and butts in seats....although i understand the part they play in getting what I want...

a 26 car grid of PAID QUALITY REAL RACECAR DRIVERS! competing for wins in a diverse championship

[garyshell]

For the most part, I think that most of us just want a viable, competitive, open wheel racing series that will sell out every venue, leaving the fans wanting more.

Can I get an "amen", brothers and sisters?

AMEN!

Gary

[indycool]

Amen.....Gary, we gotta stop agreeing like this....it's gettin' downright scary! :) :)

[garyshell]

Amen.....Gary, we gotta stop agreeing like this....it's gettin' downright scary! :) :)


Yeah, well...

I am still waiting for dates and times for the gokart shoot out discussed a week or so ago. I'm only two hours from Indy. So I am game! Unless the weather is like the past few days. Ice-o-rama.

Gary

[indycool]

Sounds good to me, but I think Whiteland'd be a little tricky today with an inch of snow on it!

[garyshell]

Sounds good to me, but I think Whiteland'd be a little tricky today with an inch of snow on it!


OH! I thought we were talking about an INDOOR facility. Opps. My bad!

Gary

[SarahFan]

Both of you can come on out to MMSP for the bikes and we can jump in the KARTS out there....

[indycool]

Whiteland, the oldest kart track in the nation, has been expanded to a half-mile road course. It's pretty nice. It has one huge NASCAR bank in it (that you really take in the middle, not the high side) and two vicious little hairpins. Just south of Indy, about half an hour from the Speedway, just past Bob Glidden's old drag racing shop.

[Chaparral66]

Yep, Chap, they explained it better than I could've. I still don't think a melding of these two series is a disaster. A disaster would be for CC just to go belly-up, period. If some kind of melding of the two takes place, the SPORT wins.

Fan reactions? Hardcore CC fans, including the CW group, would probably be POed for decades. For some, it isn't even the racing that matters, but the fight. But the hardcores on either side are the ones on the chatrooms and they're loud, and some of them are even nasty and hate-filled, and some of them WON'T adjust, but the NUMBER of them is very low compared to the big picture.

IC, I realize in conflicts such as this sometimes they don't end in the way some of us might idealize that they should. Hopefully at the end of the day, we will indeed have one viable open wheel series that will take it to NASCAR. But there will be some wounds that will need time to heal. And if TG is in charge, he's on probation until we see how the "Vision" finally fleshes out. That said, I'm willing to wait and see.

[Chaparral66]

Whiteland, the oldest kart track in the nation, has been expanded to a half-mile road course. It's pretty nice. It has one huge NASCAR bank in it (that you really take in the middle, not the high side) and two vicious little hairpins. Just south of Indy, about half an hour from the Speedway, just past Bob Glidden's old drag racing shop.

Next time I come to Indy I just might drop the gaunlet on you at that track, IC. :)

[garyshell]

IC, I realize in conflicts such as this sometimes they don't end in the way some of us might idealize that they should. Hopefully at the end of the day, we will indeed have one viable open wheel series that will take it to NASCAR. But there will be some wounds that will need time to heal. And if TG is in charge, he's on probation until we see how the "Vision" finally fleshes out. That said, I'm willing to wait and see.


You know, I don't even care about the "take it to NASCAR" part. I will be perfectly happy with a viable open wheel series.

Gary

[indycool]

Y'know, I don't either. Look at the big picture. NASCAR is not the ONLY thing with which open-wheel racing competes for the sports entertainment dollar, attention and space on the sports pages. There is no mythical trophy for "beating" NASCAR, in whatever category you do it or in what way you care about doing it.

The big picture is building your own product. Why did Long Beach move off the Masters final round date finally? So it had a chance for better TV ratings, more people, more attention. Why did the IRL want to end its season in early September? To stay out of the glut of football, MLB playoffs and World Series and, yes, the Chase and have a fighting chance for better ratings.

More people can pay attention, either on site or on TV, when other choices are not in play. You can build from that. You can't build by just finding someone to fight.

P.S. -- Seems we have a lot of folks on the board that want to race at Whiteland. It has a great history. Tony Stewart and John Andretti got their starts there and in recent years from time to time, Sarah Fisher and Lyn St. James have kept shifter karts down there to stay in shape. Kenny Irwin Sr., still races a shifter kart in their club there. In fact, Felipe Giaffone drove the wheels off an Italian kart that I owned a piece of down there once!

[Chaparral66]

So if we come, will you race?

[indycool]

I'll try, at my age........

[Chaparral66]

I'll try, at my age........

What does that mean? You can't be older than me...

[indycool]

If the 66 is it, I'm not.....but not by much! :)

[garyshell]

56 here and I'll give it a go regardless. When do we show up? Must we supply our own helmets? <grin>

Gary

[indycool]

They have helmets there.....let's arrange it the first we know that the series are going to meet together in Indy!

[SarahFan]

41......but I'll be 42 and in Indy next year...

but I'm in!...if you guys will let me join you?

[garyshell]

They have helmets there.....let's arrange it the first we know that the series are going to meet together in Indy!


41......but I'll be 42 and in Indy next year...

but I'm in!...if you guys will let me join you?

Hell yes! The intent is to get as many of the folks as we can from this forum to show up and strap on a helmet! Indycool, lets see how the merger and the weather breaks and then make plans!

Gary

Hell yes! The intent is to get as many of the folks as we can from this forum to show up and strap on a helmet! Indycool, lets see how the merger and the weather breaks and then make plans!

Gary

Just promise me that none of you is related to the family who own the track and will not form a rival group!

[garyshell]

Just promise me that none of you is related to the family who own the track and will not form a rival group!

Ok, but then YOU have to promise not to show up with some aero tricked out kart that generates a magillon pounds of downforce. :s mokin:

Gary

Ok, but then YOU have to promise not to show up with some aero tricked out kart that generates a magillon pounds of downforce. :s mokin:

Gary

I promise I won't aero-trick it.

I cannot promise that it might have accidentally fallen into a wind-tunnel and the underfloor warped into what looks suspiciously like a ground-effect shape, but I swear it had nothing to do with me.

[NOVI]

Hypothetically...would turbines or rotories be "spec" acceptible?

[indycool]

Technical rulings later.....we'll leave that up to the rental guys....42, Ken? Then you gotta give us old pharts a handicap! :) Yes, Gary, let's watch it and plan it in advance for sometime late during race week at Indy, '09.

[garyshell]

Technical rulings later.....we'll leave that up to the rental guys....42, Ken? Then you gotta give us old pharts a handicap! :) Yes, Gary, let's watch it and plan it in advance for sometime late during race week at Indy, '09.


09??? We need to get this combined go kart merger together now. <big ol' grin>

We don't need no stinking handicap. Age and treachery will always overcome youth and exuberance!

Gary

[indycool]

Hoh-kay....you borrowed that quote from Johnny Rutherford when he got older! :) I'll talk to the track guys in Whiteland when they open up in a month or so and we'll just try to take over the place for like Thursday night before the race.

We don't need no stinking handicap. Age and treachery will always overcome youth and exuberance!

Gary

Ah, yes, but what about the combination of Youth, Treachery, Mega-Budgets and Aerodynamic Excellence?

[garyshell]

Ah, yes, but what about the combination of Youth, Treachery, Mega-Budgets and Aerodynamic Excellence?

Against those formidable odds, I'll be the one curled up in a fetal position whimpering... mommy!

Gary

[Chaparral66]

Just promise me that none of you is related to the family who own the track and will not form a rival group!

Now, THAT was funny :laugh: . IC, 66 refers to the number used by Jim Hall on his Chaparral series of Can Am cars from the 60's. I'm not that old yet; not quite 50 (yikes), but gettin' there. I have helmet, will travel. Count me in on this deal. Gotta come up with a time.

[indycool]

We will and good call on the helmet number......seems like I'm effectively the senior citizen here, so I better call JR and find out what I SHOULD know in dealin' with you young 'uns! :)

P.S. -- That was a beautiful car Hall had!

[Chaparral66]

We will and good call on the helmet number......seems like I'm effectively the senior citizen here, so I better call JR and find out what I SHOULD know in dealin' with you young 'uns! :)

P.S. -- That was a beautiful car Hall had!

That Chaparral with that high wing stole my automotive heart and made me a race fan forever... :up:

[Brad Erman]

I'm down for the carting adventure. It's been almost 20 years since I've taken the green flag but I may still need to spot IC a few tenths as I am not yet 50....

[garyshell]

That Chaparral with that high wing stole my automotive heart and made me a race fan forever... :up:


Me too! I started going to MidOhio in the summer of 1967. I got to see the original CanAm series when it ran there. I'll never forget Jim's amazing cars. The infamous sucker car just blew me away with Jim's engineering.

Our much missed friend here, Speedbump, took a bunch of pictures and got me a Jim Hall signed photo when they did a tribute to Jim at the Monterey Historics at Laguna a few years back. I was unable to attend but Speedbump knew what a fan I was of Jim and his cars and helped me be there at least virtually. Damn I miss Speedbump, I'd love to here HIS thoughts on all of this. Sigh.
:bigcry:

Gary

[indycool]

Getting off topic and on some extraordinary memories is peaceful, especially when nothing's happening.

That old Can Am Series had beautiful race cars and top-flight drivers. There were the years that Bruce McLaren and Denis Hulme dominated in those pretty gold McLarens...Dan Gurney....Sir Jack Brabham......Jackie Stewart.

Got to see 'em at The Glen, Mosport and Michigan back then. 'Scuse the digression.

[SarahFan]

IC....will my then 13 year old boys be able to race the Karts next year?


is it a height or age requirement?

[indycool]

Believe the age limit is 16, but I'll check. They race in the club out there as little as 4 and 5.

[garyshell]

And MidO, Road Atlanta and Donneybrook (that'll date me :p ) as well. Maybe the best road racing series ever.


Well since Starter is digressing with us, I'll add one more comment to the mix.

"Maybe"? Starter you are the master of understatement! In my not so humble opinion, there has never been a better road racing series. Yes, yes, I know the manufacturers ruined it with the $$$$$$$$$ input. But while it lasted it was UN-FREAKIN-BELIEVABLE. I distinctly remember sitting in the esses at the end of the back straight at MidOhio. When the entire field came into that corner in formation at full song on the first lap, the ground literally shook. The amount of horsepower was just incredible.

About 15 years ago I got to got to the Glen for a Can-Am reunion. Although it rained on race day morning and there was a limited field of cars that dared to go on track, the day before was clear and practice just rocked my world.

If any of you folks who never got to see these cars in action ever get the opportunity to do so at a vintage event, DO NOT MISS IT! You'll instantly understand why us old pharts get all misty eyed at the mere mention of CanAM. V8 engines with pistons the size of five pound coffee cans in sleek sexy bodied cars will make you weak in the knees. If not, lunch is on my nickle.

Gary

[Chaparral66]

And MidO, Road Atlanta and Donneybrook (that'll date me :p ) as well. Maybe the best road racing series ever.

Amen, Starter.