Damon sticks it to DC

[Knock-on]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6253343.stm

After DC's ill judges and some would say sour grapes comments about Lewis, DH has come out and swiped him a beaut.

Well done Damon. Lewis has got to impress and like you, I'm convinced he will but DC did need taking down a peg or two :laugh:

[janneppi]

Hill:

"People will give him the leeway and the benefit of the doubt for that first six months," Hill commented.

"But then, at the end of the season, if he hasn't outpaced Fernando at one point or another, people will be saying 'Where is it? Where's that spark?'"

"So it is fair to say there is a little pressure, but I don't think Lewis Hamilton is the sort of person who under-estimates that. I think he understands that and respects that.

Coulthard: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6061610.stm

"I would advise him not to rush in, because if it doesn't quite work out then his could be a very short career."

"In terms of driving talent I think he's ready, but it's not just about whether you can drive the car or not," added Coulthard.

"It's about how you handle the rollercoaster that is the life of a Formula One driver.
To me they are pretty much in agreement with Lewis, DC being bit more cautious.

[Knock-on]

All through that interview, DC was putting him down as a little kid with no idea of what was going to happen. He's also made comments along the line of Lewis needing to start in a 2nd tier team rather than a top flight one as he's not capable of driving a top car.

That smacks of DC being a bit miffed that some rookie is getting a chance with a team that he never managed to excel in.

As DH says, DC never really delivered on his promise.

[ArrowsFA1]

It's in DC's interests to question young rookies because, as an experienced driver nearing the end of his career, they'll replace him in time and he'd prefer it to be later rather than sooner.

Damon doesn't need to worry about such things anymore. The only people he has to answer to are his kids who apparently keep finding old clips of him racing on youtube :p

[agwiii]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6253343.stm


I followed the link, and the correct title for the article is "Hamilton needs fast start - Hill."

People that post links should not make up their own titles. This is a distortion of the author's work and should not be permitted by the mods. While it's not plagiarism, it is an ethical violation.

[janneppi]

But this isn't really a topic about Hill's opinion about lewis, but about the differences in his opinion with DC. And as such the title is valid.

[agwiii]

But this isn't really a topic about Hill's opinion about lewis, but about the differences in his opinion with DC. And as such the title is valid.

I could not disagree more. Altering the original author's title is a form of vandalism and should not be permitted.

[Ranger]

I could not disagree more. Altering the original author's title is a form of vandalism and should not be permitted.

Well maybe it should be put simpler so as that people on this forum can fully understand the comments and the discussion it is meant to provoke, and not to incite a tangent about legal dilemmas :rolleyes: :

http://www.planet-f1.com/News/Story_Page/0,15909,3210_3213_1830029,00.html

[millencolin]

why are british drivers always lashing out at other british drivers.... can't they all just get along, theyre being beaten by finns spaniads brazillians and the germans... maybe they should concerntrate on winning more and whining less (much like the ashes team :p :)

[agwiii]

Well maybe it should be put simpler so as that people on this forum can fully understand the comments and the discussion it is meant to provoke, and not to incite a tangent about legal dilemmas.

It's not about "legal dilemmas." It's about the alteration of copyrighted work. If changing the title is acceptable, why not post the article and change it to suit your perspective? It only takes the deletion of a little word, such as "not" to change the entire thrust of an article. Making up a polemic title is in many ways worse.

[agwiii]

why are british drivers always lashing out at other british drivers.... can't they all just get along, theyre being beaten by finns spaniads brazillians and the germans... maybe they should concerntrate on winning more and whining less (much like the ashes team :p :)

An excellent question!

[agwiii]

It's not about "legal dilemmas." It's about the alteration of copyrighted work. If changing the title is acceptable, why not post the article and change it to suit your perspective? It only takes the deletion of a little word, such as "not" to change the entire thrust of an article. Making up a polemic title is in many ways worse.

N.B. I want to thank Kn*** (You know who you are, and so do I dude) for slamming me because he did not agree with my position on his alteration of the original author's work. I hope this behavior helps bring a swift end to the reputation system.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Good god Agwii, calm down. He never altered the author's work, he merely gave his own slant on it when naming the thread.

[agwiii]

Good god Agwii, calm down. He never altered the author's work, he merely gave his own slant on it when naming the thread.

Beans, I'm quite calm. The point is that he DID alter the author's work by changing the title. One should correctly quote the original, including the title, and then wail away however they feel -- but don't tamper with the original.

[PSfan]

Can I disagree with both Hill and Coulthard? with the musical chairs that have just taken place, I don't think they'll be a better time for a top team to take a gamble on a hot promising rookie. And I'll disagree with Hill, in that I don't think anyone expects Hamilton to outperform the reigning champion in his first season.

[Valve Bounce]

It's in DC's interests to question young rookies because, as an experienced driver nearing the end of his career, they'll replace him in time and he'd prefer it to be later rather than sooner.

Damon doesn't need to worry about such things anymore. The only people he has to answer to are his kids who apparently keep finding old clips of him racing on youtube :p


As one of our former great cricketers said: It's better that they ask "why did he quit so soon", rather than if they said "why didn't he quit earlier".

DC should follow the path of Shane Warne, Alfie Langer, and Glenn McGrath rather than wait until his "use by date" becomes eminently obvious.

[agwiii]

If your (SIC) calm, then why are you still acting like a twit?!?

Can you explain why you find it necessary to be insulting and to violate the rules of this forum?

[pino]

aqwii, members in here are free to call/name their threads the way the wants, as long offensive words are not used. So if you don't like a title, do ignore that thread. Also please loose that "professor" attitude you have in here, I am tired of it. Finally, if you have personal issues with Knock-On, take it to PM...

Thanks :)

[agwiii]

aqwii, members in here are free to call/name their threads the way the wants, as long offensive words are not used. So if you don't like a title, do ignore that thread. Also please loose that "professor" attitude you have in here, I am tired of it. Finally, if you have personal issues with Knock-On, take it to PM...

Thanks :)

Of course they are pino, but they are not free to commit plagiarism or vandalism. To intentionally distort the work of another person is an act of vandalism.

The author's title was "Hamilton needs a fast start." This is very different from "Damon sticks it to DC."

The author of the piece in question wrote the title to go along with his story and it was inappropriate for Knockie to toss it away and write something that distorted the original meaning of the article. That is not the same as someone posting a thread of their own work -- the difference is quite fundamental as I am certain you will appreciate.

[PSfan]

Back to the subject... Hills comment about Hamilton making a bigger impact then David did in his youth... Hamilton will have a little bit of on edge considering he'll have more time to mentally prepare for his first season of F1 in comparison to DC's being thrown in to replace Senna. Though I'm wondering if Hamilton will be able to finish 3rd in the standing by his 2nd year...

[agwiii]

But no plagiarism or vandalism has taken place in this thread (ok maybe by your definition of vandalism happened when pino went and edited my last post, oh how I feel so violated... :p )

Click on the link and you'll see the original authers work is still 100% intact, nothing has changed. The title of this thread being "Damon sticks it to DC" was to discuss Hill's comments towards Coulthard, the link was to be used only as reference.

Anyway, once again, back to the subject... Hills comment about Hamilton making a bigger impact then David did in his youth... Hamilton will have a little bit of on edge considering he'll have more time to mentally prepare for his first season of F1 in comparison to DC's being thrown in to replace Senna. Though I'm wondering if Hamilton will be able to finish 3rd in the standing by his 2nd year...

Okay, Psfan, where's the nudity and sex in your post?

[Valve Bounce]

Of course they are pino, but they are not free to commit plagiarism or vandalism. To intentionally distort the work of another person is an act of vandalism.

The author's title was "Hamilton needs a fast start." This is very different from "Damon sticks it to DC."

The author of the piece in question wrote the title to go along with his story and it was inappropriate for Knockie to toss it away and write something that distorted the original meaning of the article. That is not the same as someone posting a thread of their own work -- the difference is quite fundamental as I am certain you will appreciate.


I must say that I agree with pino, and I also reckon that Knockie is free to put a title to his thread as he sees fit. I am sure Voltaire would have agreed with me.

[ArrowsFA1]

The author's title was "Hamilton needs a fast start." This is very different from "Damon sticks it to DC."
It may be different but both are headline interpretations of quotes made by Damon Hill. That's all. Move on.

[DonnieDarco]

DC had it coming anyway, he's so full of himself :D

[agwiii]

It may be different but both are headline interpretations of quotes made by Damon Hill. That's all. Move on.

You miss the point. One is written by the author that wrote the article, and the other is an alteration of that author's work.

Mark Twain once remarked that to act morally is noble, but to talk about acting morally is also noble and a lot less trouble. Funny, yes, but misleading. When we begin to understand what acting morally, or ethically, really means, we learn very quickly that the real trouble in life comes from ignoring the insights and requirements of ethics. The six tests of ethical action.

There are simple tests we can use to evaluate the ethical appropriateness of our actions. These little thought experiments can help us gain mental clarity and get our moral bearings, especially when some measure of financial gain, power, or status is at stake, and we might be tempted to rationalize an action that we know to be wrong. Oscar Wilde famously admitted, “I can resist everything but temptation.” These tests can help us to resist even that.

The publicity test. Ask, “Would I want to see this action described on the front page of the local paper?” or “How would I feel about having done this if everyone, including the people I love, were to find out?”

The transparency test. Ask, “Could I give a clear explanation for the action, including an honest and transparent account of my motives, that would satisfy a fair and dispassionate moral judge?”

The moral mentor test. Carry around the image of a wise and good person you admire: a parent or friend, a professional mentor, or a great moral example from history, such as Jesus or Gandhi. Ask: “What would my moral mentor do in this situation?”

The admired observer test. A variant on the two previous tests, this one recommends that we ask, “Would I want my moral mentor to see me doing this?” or “What would make my moral mentor proud of me in this situation?”

The man/woman in the mirror test. Avoiding all questions of weight, hair color, the exigencies of a bad hair day, bloodshot eyes, bags, and wrinkles, ask, “Will I be able to look at myself in the mirror and respect the person I see there?”

The Golden Rule test. Ask, “Would I like to be on the receiving end of this action and its potential consequences? Am I treating others the way I’d want to be treated?”

[raphael123]

lol knock on, come on!! get real! your the only one who seems to be making such a fuss. the guy wrote the title because thats what he wanted to discuss.

'Plagiarism is the practice of claiming, or implying, original authorship'.

Be a good boy, and listen to the moderators lol!

[agwiii]

lol knock on, come on!! get real! your the only one who seems to be making such a fuss. the guy wrote the title because thats what he wanted to discuss. 'Plagiarism is the practice of claiming, or implying, original authorship'. Be a good boy, and listen to the moderators lol!

Nobody suggested that Knockon's act was plagiarism.

[PSfan]

You miss the point. One is written by the author that wrote the article, and the other is an alteration of that author's work.

Mark Twain once remarked that to act morally is noble, but to talk about acting morally is also noble and a lot less trouble. Funny, yes, but misleading. When we begin to understand what acting morally, or ethically, really means, we learn very quickly that the real trouble in life comes from ignoring the insights and requirements of ethics. The six tests of ethical action.

There are simple tests we can use to evaluate the ethical appropriateness of our actions. These little thought experiments can help us gain mental clarity and get our moral bearings, especially when some measure of financial gain, power, or status is at stake, and we might be tempted to rationalize an action that we know to be wrong. Oscar Wilde famously admitted, “I can resist everything but temptation.” These tests can help us to resist even that.

The publicity test. Ask, “Would I want to see this action described on the front page of the local paper?” or “How would I feel about having done this if everyone, including the people I love, were to find out?”

The transparency test. Ask, “Could I give a clear explanation for the action, including an honest and transparent account of my motives, that would satisfy a fair and dispassionate moral judge?”

The moral mentor test. Carry around the image of a wise and good person you admire: a parent or friend, a professional mentor, or a great moral example from history, such as Jesus or Gandhi. Ask: “What would my moral mentor do in this situation?”

The admired observer test. A variant on the two previous tests, this one recommends that we ask, “Would I want my moral mentor to see me doing this?” or “What would make my moral mentor proud of me in this situation?”

The man/woman in the mirror test. Avoiding all questions of weight, hair color, the exigencies of a bad hair day, bloodshot eyes, bags, and wrinkles, ask, “Will I be able to look at myself in the mirror and respect the person I see there?”

The Golden Rule test. Ask, “Would I like to be on the receiving end of this action and its potential consequences? Am I treating others the way I’d want to be treated?”

You make the suggestion that I'm beating a dead horse, and then you make this long winded post?

"Damon sticks it to DC" is the Title of This thread
"Hamilton needs a fast start." is the title of the article being referenced
They are 2 seperate entities.

Also goto google news and do a search for Damon Hill, you'll find at least half a dozen articles the focus on just the "hamilton" aspect of the interview, and they all have different titles!!! which ones the original?

Lewis is the future - Damon Hill
Hill: Hamilton may face critics soon
Hamilton honeymoon won't last, warns Hill
Hamilton needs fast start - Hill
Hamilton must establish himself says Hill
Hamilton needs flying start - Hill
Hill: Coulthard shouldn't pass judgement
Hill criticises Coulthard over Hamilton
Hill warns Hamilton
Lew can do it
Rookie Lewis Hamilton may have only a few months to prove himself ...

[ArrowsFA1]

The point of this thread is to have a discussion about Damon Hill's comments regarding Lewis Hamilton.


"People will give him the leeway and the benefit of the doubt for that first six months. But then, at the end of the season, if he hasn't outpaced Fernando at one point or another, people will be saying 'Where is it? Where's that spark?'"


"You have to accept those that have gone on to become great drivers - like Michael Schumacher, Alain Prost, Ayrton Senna - they arrived and went 'bang'. They were on the scene, on the pace, outpacing their team-mate - and they were there right from the word go."

"So it is fair to say there is a little pressure, but I don't think Lewis Hamilton is the sort of person who under-estimates that. I think he understands that and respects that. He's got a window of opportunity to learn, but it's going to be a short one."
"Lewis is the future. He's going to be in F1 for a good few years, and let's hope that Lewis has more success and makes more of his opportunities. You have to say it's now possible to reflect on DC's career in that respect. I think it's not well founded, that assessment. "I think Lewis has a proven track record of being a winner in GP2, and he's been well coached and guided by a very professional team in McLaren and Ron Dennis."

[janneppi]

I wonder how much of Hills attitude towards DC is due to DC having a longer career in both F1 and in "top" teams?
Hill was dumped by Williams after only four years where as DC could have "his season" year after year until he became 74 years old and moved to Red Bull. :)

[tifosi77]

All through that interview, DC was putting him down as a little kid with no idea of what was going to happen. He's also made comments along the line of Lewis needing to start in a 2nd tier team rather than a top flight one as he's not capable of driving a top car.

That smacks of DC being a bit miffed that some rookie is getting a chance with a team that he never managed to excel in.

As DH says, DC never really delivered on his promise.

Agree, DC is one of those drivers who on his day could beat anyone. The problem was 'on his day' happened maybe two times a season. He's grumpy and jealous, that's all.

Regarding the whole hubbub about the 'title change'..... I don't see it. The thread starter didn't endeavor to quote any of the linked article in his initial post, the article was intact.

Sound like someone woke up on the wrong side of the rock. ;)

[Ian McC]

I wonder if we are reading too much into this, this was just an observation by Damon, nothing more, it maybe a bit extreme to suggest that it's anything more than that.

[agwiii]

The point of this thread is to have a discussion about Damon Hill's comments regarding Lewis Hamilton.

It certainly COULD have been, had it been started properly and ethically. A pity.

[agwiii]

Agree, DC is one of those drivers who on his day could beat anyone. The problem was 'on his day' happened maybe two times a season. He's grumpy and jealous, that's all.

I'd say that when he was having a good day, he was capable of winning. That times seems to have passed by. DC no longer makes statements that "This is my year," instead he is becomming a whiner. A pity.

[Narr]

I wonder how much of Hills attitude towards DC is due to DC having a longer career in both F1 and in "top" teams?
Hill was dumped by Williams after only four years where as DC could have "his season" year after year until he became 74 years old and moved to Red Bull. :)

Except DC didn't move by choice to Red Bull, he was dumped by McLaren and has spent the next 2 years bitching about Juan.

DC is the nearly man, firstly being lauded by others and then talking up his prospects every year. Damon on the other hand does have a WDC and nothing to be bitter about.

[fandango]

Perhaps DC was trying to be kind to Hamilton. He is, by all accounts, a very nice bloke. Maybe somewhere deep down he thinks it would have been better for him back in 94 if he'd done some time in a "lower tier" team. Then he mightn't have made so many mistakes.

At the same time, I think the Brits are so hyped over this they're reading too much into things, just like when Button joined Williams.

I don't think Hill is being critical of DC, particularly. His point about great drivers making an immediate mark greatly overlooks ol' Nige amongst others, though, so that'll give the press a chance to go and have Mansell give his tuppence worth ;)

[Valve Bounce]

It certainly COULD have been, had it been started properly and ethically. A pity.


There appears to be some sorting out needed here. First of all, Knockie is a good friend and a forum member who is valued for his contributions to this forum. We enjoy his discussions and his posts.

He is perfectly entitled to title his thread as he sees fit. He has not claimed to be the author of any of the contents of the article regarding Damon's comments, nor has he defamed any property, written or otherwise.

Therefore, the choice of accusations of plagiarism and vandalism are ill conceived and ill placed.

So I would strongly urge this particular critic of Knockie to firstly consult his dictionaries before launching on his next escapade on his soap box for his muddled digressions.

We have already been down the road of unsung heroes, so let's lay off the soap box. OK??

Insinuations of Knockie being unethical are not appreciated.

[PSfan]

The point of this thread is to have a discussion about Damon Hill's comments regarding Lewis Hamilton.

I hate to disagree, but clearly the point of this thread was to have a discussion about Damon Hill's comments towards Coulthard, and proof of that lies with the title of this thread, and the first few posts up until aqwii decided to go into ethical clensing mode:


Hill, however, believes Hamilton is capable of making a bigger impact than Coulthard did when he was a young driver in F1..

And besides, the Hill vs Coulthard aspect of the story is so much more interesting because of the fact that they where team mates at the time DC entered the sport. And while Coulthard's first season wasn't spectacular, he was was thrown in to replace Senna, and then after his first podium, was then replaced by Mansell for the rest of the season, so its not hard to imagine Hamilton doing better then that. But then again, looking at the new Mclaren, its also looks like ALonso may have a hard time getting podiums :p

We already have/had a thread to discuss how we think Hamilton will do

But yah, this story is also interesting in the fact that both drivers are speaking from experience, Coulthard being the young driver pushed into the sport a little to soon, and Damon Hill, the driver that was beaten regularly by a rookie team-mate :cheese:

Also a little off topic... how many races in one season do you have to be in to consider it your rookie year? Coulthard appeared in 8 races his first year, which was 1/2 the season...

[agwiii]

Therefore, the choice of accusations of plagiarism and vandalism are ill conceived and ill placed.

Insinuations of Knockie being unethical are not appreciated.

There was no suggestion of plagiarism. The act was vandalism, and that is an unethical act - friend or not.

[agwiii]

I hate to disagree, but clearly the point of this thread was to have a discussion about Damon Hill's comments towards Coulthard, and proof of that lies with the title of this thread, and the first few posts up until aqwii decided to go into ethical clensing mode:

And besides, the Hill vs Coulthard aspect of the story is so much more interesting because of the fact that they where team mates at the time DC entered the sport. And while Coulthard's first season wasn't spectacular, he was was thrown in to replace Senna, and then after his first podium, was then replaced by Mansell for the rest of the season, so its not hard to imagine Hamilton doing better then that. But then again, looking at the new Mclaren, its also looks like ALonso may have a hard time getting podiums :p

We already have/had a thread to discuss how we think Hamilton will do

But yah, this story is also interesting in the fact that both drivers are speaking from experience, Coulthard being the young driver pushed into the sport a little to soon, and Damon Hill, the driver that was beaten regularly by a rookie team-mate :cheese:

Also a little off topic... how many races in one season do you have to be in to consider it your rookie year? Coulthard appeared in 8 races his first year, which was 1/2 the season...

LOL.

Thanks for taking up the tiller and steering back to Coulthard vs. Hill.

[Valve Bounce]

There was no suggestion of plagiarism. The act was vandalism, and that is an unethical act - friend or not.


This was neither vandalism, nor plagiarism as you suggested in your earlier post. Perhaps you would be well advised to look up in the dictionary the meaning of the words plagiarism, vandalism and unethical.

While I really don't care what you think, it is different when you use your lack of understanding of the English language to launch soap box attacks on people who contribute positively to discussions here, a habit which some might find grating.

Do you prefer to make a nuisance of yourself here in silly accusations rather than involve yourself in friendly discussions?

[agwiii]

This was neither vandalism, nor plagiarism as you suggested in your earlier post. Perhaps you would be well advised to look up in the dictionary the meaning of the words plagiarism, vandalism and unethical. While I really don't care what you think, it is different when you use your lack of understanding of the English language to launch soap box attacks on people who contribute positively to discussions here, a habit which some might find grating. Do you prefer to make a nuisance of yourself here in silly accusations rather than involve yourself in friendly discussions?

Lame. How very lame. It you are telling the truth when you wrote that you "really dont care what you think," then ignore it. Your actions contradict your words. Vandalism is vandalism, and this involved the vandalism of intellectual property, like it or not. While it is highly unlikely that Knockie will pay any legal penalties, that does not mitigate his action and NOTHING written in this thread had been exculpatory. Friendly - all the knock would have had to do was make his mea culpas and that would have been the end. Instead, we have many apologists for knockie, that can lead to only one conclusion. Shakespeare was right -- methinks the lady doth protest too much. Thanks always!

[Valve Bounce]

Lame. How very lame. It you are telling the truth when you wrote that you "really dont care what you think," then ignore it. Your actions contradict your words. Vandalism is vandalism, and this involved the vandalism of intellectual property, like it or not. While it is highly unlikely that Knockie will pay any legal penalties, that does not mitigate his action and NOTHING written in this thread had been exculpatory. Friendly - all the knock would have had to do was make his mea culpas and that would have been the end. Instead, we have many apologists for knockie, that can lead to only one conclusion. Shakespeare was right -- methinks the lady doth protest too much. Thanks always!

I really don't care what you think! it is your silly attacks on others here which I find annoying.

While I fully understand you will continue to make deranged attacks here on anyone you please, this is the last response you are getting from me. Adios!

[agwiii]

I really don't care what you think!

It seems that your actions prove otherwise. You're not doing a very good job of ignoring.

:D

[Ranger]

A sense that this thread will be closed overwhelms me. :rolleyes:

[agwiii]

A sense that this thread will be closed overwhelms me. :rolleyes:

Agreed! Can you count? 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, KaBlamo!

[pino]

The point of this thread is to have a discussion about Damon Hill's comments regarding Lewis Hamilton.

Thank You !

[ArrowsFA1]

Perhaps DC was trying to be kind to Hamilton. He is, by all accounts, a very nice bloke. Maybe somewhere deep down he thinks it would have been better for him back in 94 if he'd done some time in a "lower tier" team. Then he mightn't have made so many mistakes.

At the same time, I think the Brits are so hyped over this they're reading too much into things, just like when Button joined Williams.

I don't think Hill is being critical of DC, particularly. His point about great drivers making an immediate mark greatly overlooks ol' Nige amongst others, though, so that'll give the press a chance to go and have Mansell give his tuppence worth ;)
Good points :up:

When the BRDC chairman talks about the future of Britons in F1 (Hamilton) and the past (DC) at the Autosport show then his comments are bound to create interest.

Given Noige's return to the media spotlight in the last year or so I await his views with interest :p Then again, he'll probably say the British future in F1 goes by the names of Leo and Greg :D

[Ranger]

When the BRDC chairman talks about the future of Britons in F1 (Hamilton) and the past (DC) at the Autosport show then his comments are bound to create interest.

I think the things Damon says are weighted more by the fact that he's a World Champion than the BRDC president.

[ArrowsFA1]

I agree Mallen, but his current key role in the future of the British GP all adds to the mix for the purposes of the story :)

Damon probably quite likes the "title" of last Brit to win the WDC :D

[Mark]

It's both, I should think. Plus, the opinions of retired drivers, much like retired politicians always carry more weight.

As for DC, he had plenty chances, he spent a long time at McLaren when they sucked, so you can't say he didn't spend his time in the midfield. He had his chance when McLaren came good, but it was Hakkinen who took the opportunity.

DC was/is a very good driver, and sometimes very good drivers do win world championships, but he's never been excellent.

[janneppi]

Except DC didn't move by choice to Red Bull, he was dumped by McLaren and has spent the next 2 years bitching about Juan.

DC is the nearly man, firstly being lauded by others and then talking up his prospects every year. Damon on the other hand does have a WDC and nothing to be bitter about.
So when DC suggests that Lewis should perhaps grow a bit to handle the stress better, he's a bitter old man, when Hill says DC is a has-been who has, and never will achieve anything, he's completely objective and isn't at all affected by his relatively short career ? ;)

[Storm]

I could not disagree more. Altering the original author's title is a form of vandalism and should not be permitted.

err sorry but Knock-on never said/insinuated that the title of his THREAD is the same as the title of the article ?

1 click on the link and all confusion is cleared isn't it :s

[agwiii]

Damon's statements about Hamilton are interesting. He points out that Hamilton will have a very small window to prove himself, and notes that some of the great drivers of the past made an immediate impression. Hill makes a passing reference to Coulthard, stating that he believes Hamilton "is capable of making a bigger impact than Coulthard did when he was a young driver in F1." A bigger impact. That's sticking it to Coulthard, Damon! Harsh words, indeed.

:s mokin:

[Knock-on]

I apologise to the Mods for taking this back but I've not been around for a few days and didn't realise I had committed such a terrible sin as starting a Post. :s hock:

Anyway, back to the subject.

[Valve Bounce]

I apologise to the Mods for taking this back but I've not been around for a few days and didn't realise I had committed such a terrible sin as starting a Post. :s hock:

Anyway, back to the subject.

Well, I, for one, am glad that Damon is still sticking it to DC. Poor DC can't get over the fact that Ron prefers an untried novice driver over an old bugger who still expects to win the championship. :p : Some things just never change.

[agwiii]

Well, I, for one, am glad that Damon is still sticking it to DC. Poor DC can't get over the fact that Ron prefers an untried novice driver over an old bugger who still expects to win the championship. :p : Some things just never change.

Citation please.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[Storm]

The more things change, the more they stay the same.


Maybe you can apply this sentence to your activities in this thread (now cleaned up) :)

[Narr]

So when DC suggests that Lewis should perhaps grow a bit to handle the stress better, he's a bitter old man, when Hill says DC is a has-been who has, and never will achieve anything, he's completely objective and isn't at all affected by his relatively short career ? ;)

Hill didn't say DC was a has-been but I'll agree he's way past his prime is still irrational about loosing his seat.

2 of the best teams in the last 20 years and not enough to show for it.

DC will be in DTM next ;)

[agwiii]

Maybe you can apply this sentence to your activities in this thread (now cleaned up) :)

Perhaps you can show us.

[ArrowsFA1]

DC has revisited his comments, as reported by the News of the World, regarding Lewis Hamilton:

Right, I am going to be very clear with my words here because I don't want anything taken out of context. I got credited with saying that McLaren had made a bad decision and the guy is too young, etc. But I never said that.

Lewis is clearly a talent. I know him, he is a friend and I have known him since he was a little boy. I have helped him at various points during his career when he came asking for help, so why would I want to say anything negative about someone I believe is a clear talent and deserves to be in F1?

What I made was an absolute factual observation in that you cannot know as much today as he will know when he is 24, because he will have two more years experience then. That is a fact. So in trying to make an obvious statement it got misunderstood, the quotes got picked out and it turned into this sensational thing."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/56493

[Knock-on]

OK DC. Why say it in the first place?

We may as well say that DC will know more in 2 years than what he does now i.e. How to exit stage left :D

[janneppi]

Why shouldn't drivers comment on their colleagues?

[Knock-on]

Why shouldn't drivers comment on their colleagues?

It just came over a bit catty from DC like someone that was tipped to be one of the best and never made it. Then sour grapes now Lewis has come along.

Thats why I liked how DH brought him back down to earth. People respect him a lot more and it made DC think a bit.

[janneppi]

You mean when Hill commented about DC after comments that were falsely attributed to DC, yeah, what a man, what champ, what a decent bloke. ;)

What I made was an absolute factual observation in that you cannot know as much today as he will know when he is 24, because he will have two more years experience then.
I mean, the man obviously hates Lewis and says anything to put him down...

[agwiii]

I mean, the man obviously hates Lewis and says anything to put him down.

And Lewis is the first black F1 driver. Coincidence?

[trumperZ06]

And Lewis is the first black F1 driver. Coincidence?


:dozey: OOPS... not sure any racial issues were implied in DC's comments !!!

;) Sour Grapes... yes... Green with envy... maybe...

but not a hint of racial issues!!!

:s mokin: Trumper

[agwiii]

:dozey: OOPS... not sure any racial issues were implied in DC's comments !!!

;) Sour Grapes... yes... Green with envy... maybe...

but not a hint of racial issues!!!

:s mokin: Trumper

I don't believe in coincidences.

[scaliwag]

It just came over a bit catty from DC like someone that was tipped to be one of the best and never made it. Then sour grapes now Lewis has come along.

Thats why I liked how DH brought him back down to earth. People respect him a lot more and it made DC think a bit.

Knock.
Good post as usual, excellent thread as usual.
Unfortunately it would seem one forum member wishes to turn your posting into a racial issue, how very sad, if this sort of thing is to continue, with regard to L. Hamilton, I will have no choice but to leave this forum.
The colour of any member, of any team, is irrelevant.
Best Regards scaliwag.

[ArrowsFA1]

And Lewis is the first black F1 driver. Coincidence?
Why you feel the need to introduce this at all is beyond me :rolleyes: To do so is an insult to DC, and to anyone who has actually read his comments.

It's reasonable to assume that your post is nothing more than flamebait.

[agwiii]

Why you feel the need to introduce this at all is beyond me. To do so is an insult to DC, and to anyone who has actually read his comments.

It's reasonable to assume that your post is nothing more than flamebait.

On the contrary, it is the 2,000 pound gorilla in the room, and to ignore it is naive and an insult to anyone who thinks about the issues. We are supposed to respond, agree, disagree with the content of the post, and not attack the poster. Attacking the poster is flaming and/or trolling.

[agwiii]

Knock. Good post as usual, excellent thread as usual. Unfortunately it would seem one forum member wishes to turn your posting into a racial issue, how very sad, if this sort of thing is to continue, with regard to L. Hamilton, I will have no choice but to leave this forum. The colour of any member, of any team, is irrelevant. Best Regards scaliwag.

:kiss: :kiss: The race card is the 2,000 pound gorilla in the room, and to ignore it is naive, and an insult to anyone who thinks about the issues. I did not suggest that it was the reason for Coulthard's comments.

We are supposed to respond, agree, disagree with the content of the post, and not attack the poster. Attacking the poster is flaming and/or trolling.

[agwiii]

OOPS ... not sure any racial issues were implied in DC's comments !!! Sour Grapes... yes... Green with envy... maybe ... but not a hint of racial issues!!!

Thumper, I cannot imagine anyone making an explicit reference to race (which no longer has any scientific legitimacy, but that is another topic.), but the "race card" sits there as the 2,000 pound gorilla in the room.

[futuretiger9]

I agree that in the last couple of years, DC has started to come across as a bit of a "grumpy old man". Part of his problem is that he was never first in the UK public's affections. First it was Damon/Mansell who overshadowed him, and then along came Jenson, and now Lewis Hamilton. In trying to combat this, he tries to act as an elder statesman figure, commenting on the burning F1 issues of the day. This sometimes backfires.

As people have remarked, his comments about Lewis do strike one as sour grapes. DC is concerned that Lewis will make an immediate impact at a top team, whereas he (DC) failed to make the most of two such opportunities (Williams and McLaren). Coulthard failed to pass muster with the exacting standards of Sir Frank and Patrick Head. Was it Hockenheim 1995 when he failed to charge to catch Schumi late in the race, and Frank and Patrick concluded that he was not a "racer", in the Jones/Rosberg/Mansell mould? That incident has been like a millstone around DC's neck ever since, having occurred very early on in his F1 career.

Coulthard possibly recognises, having presumably witnessed Lewis in GP2, that he is made of sterner stuff in terms of outright speed and mental fortitude. Fine, his words may be genuine friendly advice to a fellow Brit, but they don't come across like that.

Damon Hill, on the other hand, always manages to project himself with some dignity and humour. He was always realistic about his own strengths and weaknesses, and was honest and open about his motives for retiring. He is better than DC at acting the "elder statesmen", and is growing into a similar role to that currently played by Sir Stirling and Sir Jackie.

[ArrowsFA1]

...the issues...
The issue is the comments made by DC and DH. Thanks to futuretiger9 we are back on topic :up: Keep it that way.

[agwiii]

The issue is the comments made by DC and DH. Thanks to futuretiger9 we are back on topic :up: Keep it that way.

Yes, the issue is the comments, and that includes human motivation. That IS THE THREAD. We never left the thread. Some folks object to reality, but that does not change it.

[Gannex]

agwiii. There is little evidence that DC dislikes Lewis Hamilton, and no evidence at all that he is a racist, so your suggestion to the contrary is way out of order, possibly libellous, and certainly disgusting. What the moderators are trying to get across to you is that you should drop it.

Now Knock-On, I cannot see anything DC has said as anything other than friendly and honest comment about the difficulties of entering F1. I see no sour grapes, no arrogance, nothing. But there is no way I can persuade you that my way of seeing it is right. It just saddens me that someone as fair-minded as you, could misinterpret DC so grossly.

[agwiii]

agwiii. There is little evidence that DC dislikes Lewis Hamilton, and no evidence at all that he is a racist, so your suggestion to the contrary is way out of order, possibly libellous, and certainly disgusting. What the moderators are trying to get across to you is that you should drop it.

Now Knock-On, I cannot see anything DC has said as anything other than friendly and honest comment about the difficulties of entering F1. I see no sour grapes, no arrogance, nothing. But there is no way I can persuade you that my way of seeing it is right. It just saddens me that someone as fair-minded as you, could misinterpret DC so grossly.

Gannex - I have not suggested that DC is a racist, although there seems to be more than one person trying to create such a spin. However, to paraphrase you, I am shocked that Arrows or you could misinterpret me so grossly.

[Valve Bounce]

Knock.
Good post as usual, excellent thread as usual.
Unfortunately it would seem one forum member wishes to turn your posting into a racial issue, how very sad, if this sort of thing is to continue, with regard to L. Hamilton, I will have no choice but to leave this forum.
The colour of any member, of any team, is irrelevant.
Best Regards scaliwag.

This is ridigilis. I see no reason or excuse why anyone's inappropriate comments should even make you consider leaving. So far as I know, only one poster has decided to make comments to rile Knockie et al. Just do what I do and add him to your ignore list, and voila!! his posts no longer appear on your screen.

[Valve Bounce]

Maybe we could label DC as one of the Forgotten Heroes of F1 :D

[BeansBeansBeans]

On the contrary, it is the 2,000 pound gorilla in the room, and to ignore it is naive and an insult to anyone who thinks about the issues. We are supposed to respond, agree, disagree with the content of the post, and not attack the poster. Attacking the poster is flaming and/or trolling.

Ok, in response to your post, I don't believe that there is any connection between Coulthard's assessment of Lewis Hamilton (which for the most part, is glowing), and Hamilton's racial origin.

[agwiii]

Ok, in response to your post, I don't believe that there is any connection between Coulthard's assessment of Lewis Hamilton (which for the most part, is glowing), and Hamilton's racial origin.

I hope you are right. Of course, my post does not suggest that DC is a racist, or that he is motivated by the fact Hamilton is black. That does not mean the obvious fact that Hamilton is a black man, and the first black man in F1 will not be a factor in many issues surrounding Hamilton. Racism is very much alive on planet Earth. Examples are endless. Will Hamilton be immune from its ugly head? Only in a perfect world, but this is far from perfect.

[BeansBeansBeans]

I hope you are right. Of course, my post does not suggest that DC is a racist, or that he is motivated by the fact Hamilton is black. That does not mean the obvious fact that Hamilton is a black man, and the first black man in F1 will not be a factor in many issues surrounding Hamilton. Racism is very much alive on planet Earth. Examples are endless. Will Hamilton be immune from its ugly head? Only in a perfect world, but this is far from perfect.

I completely agree that Hamilton's skin colour will raise certain issues, some of them postive, some negative, but I don't think it has any connection with the issue under discussion here.

I would also point out that Hamilton is of mixed-race (Caucasian / Afro-Carribean).

[Valve Bounce]

May I ask here, whether Hamilton is any darker than Fangio? Some people like to stir shyte out of any issue just to prove their professorship credidentials.

[Valve Bounce]

I think this expains everything: http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=30400

[BeansBeansBeans]

May I ask here, whether Hamilton is any darker than Fangio?

I've no idea, but he is definitely the first driver of Afro-Carribean origin to drive in F1.

Whether Fangio had darker skin or not makes little difference.

[Gannex]

For what it's worth, I think Lewis Hamilton's skin colour will have no effect, none, on his F1 career. This is not the 1950's American South. The world has come a long way since then. Has Tiger Woods's career been affected negatively by his race? Of course not! Nor will Lewis Hamilton's.

[Ian McC]

I think this expains everything: http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=30400

I would of thought that neither of them really care about what the media think, F1 does not get big coverage in the national press, the only way they will break out of the back pages is if they happen to sleep with the wrong person.

[Ian McC]

For what it's worth, I think Lewis Hamilton's skin colour will have no effect, none, on his F1 career. This is not the 1950's American South. The world has come a long way since then. Has Tiger Woods's career been affected negatively by his race? Of course not! Nor will Lewis Hamilton's.

Indeed, I am sure that most members here probably have not given his colour a first thought, let alone a second one.

I think that DC's comments have been taken out of context, in fact had Damon not reacted to them I expect no one would of taken much notice.

[agwiii]

For what it's worth, I think Lewis Hamilton's skin colour will have no effect, none, on his F1 career.

Racism now takes many forms, but the South deals with it much better than any other place. Was Ali's career affected by racism? How about the racism displayed by Michael Richards, or the anti-semitism of Mel Gibson? I work with some of the leaders of the black community in Miami and they have a different perspective. Just as I do not know if Hamilton will eclipse Alonso, I have no idea what factors, including our false concept of race, will affect his career.

Finally, the very concept of race is now considered to be on the non-scientific fringe.
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=186207#post186207

[agwiii]

And Lewis is the first black F1 driver. Coincidence?


One of the anonymous forum cowards posted negative on this message, with the comment, "mmmm, racist implications." It is a pity that such a person is on this forum, for they are either stupid or chose to intentionally misunderstand what has been written. I doubt that anyone could be so stupid as to take that position, leaving only intentional misunderstanding. What this suggests is that the anonymous coward is among the most prejudiced of all.

Note to Mods: What could be more insulting than to receive such an anonymous and nasty comment? Of course, since you're a Mod, the comments are not anonymous to you, are they? This is what your REP system allows -- anonymous insults from prejudiced people. Pathetic!

[trumperZ06]

Racism now takes many forms, but the South deals with it much better than any other place. Was Ali's career affected by racism? How about the racism displayed by Michael Richards, or the anti-semitism of Mel Gibson? I work with some of the leaders of the black community in Miami and they have a different perspective. Just as I do not know if Hamilton will eclipse Alonso, I have no idea what factors, including our false concept of race, will affect his career.

Finally, the very concept of race is now considered to be on the non-scientific fringe.
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=186207#post186207

:p : Agwiii... Why don't you just stop pushing the Racism issue ???

Everyone agrees DC did NOT imply any race issue with his comments about Hamilton !!!

:rolleyes: You... for some unknown reason... played the racism card to gain attention.

ENOUGH already... give it a rest !!!

[agwiii]

:p : Agwiii... Why don't you just stop pushing the Racism issue ???

Everyone agrees DC did NOT imply any race issue with his comments about Hamilton !!!

:rolleyes: You... for some unknown reason... played the racism card to gain attention.

ENOUGH already... give it a rest !!!

It seems this was touching an open nerve for some people. I wonder why?

[DonnieDarco]

I think this expains everything: http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=30400

Ron's trying to keep Lewis away from chocolate??? Thats really out of order!!! :D Drink, women - both reasonable, crisps pushing it, but I draw the line at being kept away from chocolate :D

[GridGirl]

Ron's trying to keep Lewis away from chocolate??? Thats really out of order!!! :D Drink, women - both reasonable, crisps pushing it, but I draw the line at being kept away from chocolate :D

If Ron is going to get dirty by banning chocolate, can we not all get together and ban his naf sense in wearing those horrible leather jackets? They should have remained with David Hastlehoff and Knightrider. Its just wrong.

[jso1985]

It seems this was touching an open nerve for some people. I wonder why?

wonder why you were the only one who brought up the race issue, I guess you are the only in the forum who can't see anynone as just a human being but has to classify him/her in races.

anyway...

[Valve Bounce]

wonder why you were the only one who brought up the race issue, I guess you are the only in the forum who can't see anynone as just a human being but has to classify him/her in races.

anyway...

Some Professors like to etach, others just stand on a soap box and preach.

[Mark]

This thread is closed. We do not tollerate racism on this forum in any shape or form.