McLaren chiefs summoned as spy saga goes on by Italian prosecutors

[CNR]

http://racing.auto123.com/en/racing/news/index,view.spy?artid=94372




Leading figures of the British formula one team McLaren have been summoned for questioning by Italian prosecutors, as the criminal espionage investigation involving Ferrari continues.

Even though F1's governing body has drawn a line under the affair from a sporting point of view, the Italian newspaper La Gazzetta dello Sport reports that magistrate Guiseppe Tibis wants to speak with Ron Dennis, Martin Whitmarsh and two other senior members of the Woking based team, on February 18.

[gloomyDAY]

Not this crap again....

[Tazio]

http://racing.auto123.com/en/racing/news/index,view.spy?artid=94372
Good!! keep their narrow ass' sweating a criminal, and/or civil judgement!

[wmcot]

It will be interesting to see what the legal authorities turn up that the FIA overlooked. I am still curious as to why (other than possible loss of money) the FIA just dropped the whole matter including the inspection of the 2008 McLaren?

[AJP]

Will this crap ever end????

[Dzeidzei]

Will this crap ever end????

What crap? How the hell do you think that the laws dont apply to companies involved in sports?

FIA is not a court, its a governing body. There is no question McL was quilty of industrial espionage and they will be punished in a civil court.

FIA decided not to exclude McL from racing, mainly because of politics (read: money lost, bad publicity, keeping the wdc alive etc.). A civil court will have no such agenda, it will only judge whether laws have been broken and pass a judgment accordingly.

And unlike FIA, if McL is found quilty, someone(s) will be named as the responsible one. And this always means personal responsibility. The consequencies can be both institutional (towards McL) and/or personal (watch out, Ron).

[SGWilko]

The consequencies can be both institutional (towards McL) and/or personal (watch out, Ron).

I wouldn't hold your breath, incompetent morons run our (England) rail network, and let halfwits conduct rail maintenance. Even the people that cause death because they can't be arsed to do their jobs properly get away with a smacked wrist.

I imagine the Italian legal system will find exactly what the FIA found. They might discover which drawer at home Mrs Dennis keeps her smalls in, but I can't see anything particularly new or scandalous being found.

[Dzeidzei]

I wouldn't hold your breath, incompetent morons run our (England) rail network, and let halfwits conduct rail maintenance. Even the people that cause death because they can't be arsed to do their jobs properly get away with a smacked wrist.

I imagine the Italian legal system will find exactly what the FIA found. They might discover which drawer at home Mrs Dennis keeps her smalls in, but I can't see anything particularly new or scandalous being found.

I have plenty of experience of your rail network. Life´s a bitch, our country has crappy neighbours.

And I do believe Italian court will find the exact same stuff the FIA did. But there is a difference: FIA was never meant to pass legal judgment on what had happened. Its only concern was to a) preserve some sort of credibility of F1 in the public eye and b) keep the wdc and the series alive.

And regardless of how the fans feel about their judgment, the FIA succeeded in their efforts. At least enough for the sport to still interest enough people and tv viewers so that the business can go on.

FIA could never nor did it ever try to pass any legal judgment.

I dont wish that they put RD away (altho I do think he should apologise to the fans, to other teams and to the sport in general). I dont hold my breath in that sense. I wish everyone would move on, but the thruth is the legal issues in Italy are there and they might have consequences beyound what the FIA decided.

[MAX_THRUST]

DAFT AS A BADGER IN SKI GOGGLES.......

Ferrari really know how to make fans that sit on the fence choose a side, I hope they loose everything this year and are caught stealing info from Super Aguri. Like Ferrari never bent the rules EVER!!!!!!

the Italian courts decisions are normally based on money, especially if it is one of there own they are trying to protect or help.

What do they want Rons head on a stake...

[I am evil Homer]

This is as stupid as trying to jail Frank Williams for the Senna crash. They may well find more stuf but enough to jail Dennis or Whitmarsh...no chance.

[speeddurango]

Well as much as I can't agree with comparing this to jailing Frank Williams for Senna crash in any sense, since one is innocent in a way and the other is completely at fault and should rightly be punished as long as the law is there. I still feel kind of bad for the guys at McLaren, it's sort of a reminder though, don't you ever try to make mistakes, they keep getting onto you all the time and you can't even get a away with it.

[samuratt]

McLaren hasn't been legally punished yet for industrial espionage, so expect more sh¡t out of this procedures. And furthermore you can expect some surprises out of this, like Ron knowing everything from the begining and that sort of things...

If the law find them guilty they will have to pay, and as far as I know Ferrari will welcome some millions of euros to support their f1 project.

If you cheat you have to pay!

"Ron 'Norman Stanley Fletcher' Dennis, you have pleaded guilty to the charges brought by this court, and it is now my duty to pass sentence. You are an habitual criminal, who accepts arrest as an occupational hazard, and presumably accepts imprisonment in the same casual manner. We therefore feel constrained to commit you to the maximum term allowed for these offences — you will go to prison for five years."

You have been watching 'Porridge - The Woking Years'

Starring -

Ronnie Barker as Ron Dennis, Richard Beckinsale as Martin Whitmarsh, Fulton Mackay as Max Mosley & Brian Wilde as Bernie Ecclestone.

This is as stupid as trying to jail Frank Williams for the Senna crash. They may well find more stuf but enough to jail Dennis or Whitmarsh...no chance.

It's not necessarily about 'jailing' anyone.

There are other penalties available to the court. Fiscal penalties, for example.

It's a good job the Italians deal in Euro's now and not Lire, because my guess is it could be very hard to find a pen with enough ink in it to write that number of noughts on the cheque.

Not forgetting 'Community Service'.......It would be funny to see the look on Stepney & Dennis's face if the Judge told them they were to litter-pick Maranello town centre.

[SGWilko]

"Ron 'Norman Stanley Fletcher' Dennis, you have pleaded guilty to the charges brought by this court, and it is now my duty to pass sentence. You are an habitual criminal, who accepts arrest as an occupational hazard, and presumably accepts imprisonment in the same casual manner. We therefore feel constrained to commit you to the maximum term allowed for these offences — you will go to prison for five years."

You have been watching 'Porridge - The Woking Years'

Starring -

Ronnie Barker as Ron Dennis, Richard Beckinsale as Martin Whitmarsh, Fulton Mackay as Max Mosley & Brian Wilde as Bernie Ecclestone.

Naff off Godber!!!

[wmcot]

DAFT AS A BADGER IN SKI GOGGLES.......

Ferrari really know how to make fans that sit on the fence choose a side, I hope they loose everything this year and are caught stealing info from Super Aguri. Like Ferrari never bent the rules EVER!!!!!!

the Italian courts decisions are normally based on money, especially if it is one of there own they are trying to protect or help.

What do they want Rons head on a stake...

Here comes the Ferrari bashing!!! McLaren are caught with illegally obtained property from another company and it's Ferrari's fault that they must answer to the laws just like you or me - GREAT LOGIC!!!

[AJP]

And I do believe Italian court will find the exact same stuff the FIA did.

this is why I said what I said in my original post.

[AJP]

If you cheat you have to pay!

Ferrari have quite the backlog then.....

Ferrari have quite the backlog then.....

Really?

If so, perhaps you could enlighten us as to when Ferrari were found to be in the illegal possession of another teams blue-prints?

'Sporting' infringements are one thing.....Industrial Espionage something else altogether.

If you don't believe me, may I suggest that you do two things.

First, commit a foul on a Football pitch and see if that lands you in Court.

Then handle stolen goods and see if that lands you in Court.

[Malbec]

This is as stupid as trying to jail Frank Williams for the Senna crash. They may well find more stuf but enough to jail Dennis or Whitmarsh...no chance.

This isn't comparable to jailing SFW.

Building an F1 car in good faith that a driver died in is not a criminal offence. People still die in car accidents, the manufacturers are not in breach of criminal law unless they know of defects that could cause such an accident and don't do anything about it.

If one company takes IP from another company it becomes a criminal matter. Its called 'theft'. It doesn't matter if a Ferrari employee offered to give the material, McLaren had the choice of declining it but they didn't (although I'll leave the question as to how far it went within the company open).

I'll give you a couple of real world examples. A Coca-Cola employee a few years ago found a recipe for a new product and called Pepsi to see if they wanted it. Pepsi played along while calling in the FBI and letting Coca-Cola know about the rogue employee. Result? Pepsi acted as they should have done, Coca-Cola got rid of the employee and the FBI put a case together that put the employee behind bars.

Here's another. A guy called Lopez worked as a senior exec for GM and cut costs across the board giving GM a tidy profit. VW poached him and he took across some of his fave colleagues with him. Nothing wrong with that, happens all the time. Problem is he also took a load of GM documents with him. GM sued for IP theft. VW settled with a multi-million dollar settlement (may have reached the billion dollar mark, can't remember). The Feds only stopped trying to prosecute Lopez after he was crippled in a car accident in Spain and couldn't be extradited. If he had gone to the States and faced trial he would have been facing a prison term.

Why should F1 teams be uniquely above the law?

The only interesting thing about this is that there might be a trail that leads back to Ferrari. Stepney has always maintained there was an exchange of information, he's been wrong about a few things and right about others. If he's right about the information flow being two way Ferrari may be in trouble. The Italian magistrates have been throwing their weight around in Italy recently, cutting down Ferrari isn't going to cause them sleepless nights.

The other thing is whether the Italians do something that would save face like they did with Toyota, ie 'find' that the employees involved were acting without the knowledge of the company in dealing with the stolen information. That was hard to believe in the Toyota case but thats how the courts found then, it could easily happen again.

The Italian magistrates have been throwing their weight around in Italy recently, cutting down Ferrari isn't going to cause them sleepless nights.

No, but it might cause them to 'sleep with the fishes'.

Seriously, the Italian magistrates have been vociferous in their attempts to combat that most Italian of problems known as corruption, but this has been driven by a public consensus that it needs to be done and that the people and organisations involved have been getting away with it too long.

Ferrari don't really fall into that category.

[Malbec]

No, but it might cause them to 'sleep with the fishes'.

Seriously, the Italian magistrates have been vociferous in their attempts to combat that most Italian of problems known as corruption, but this has been driven by a public consensus that it needs to be done and that the people and organisations involved have been getting away with it too long.

Ferrari don't really fall into that category.

If Ferrari are seen to be playing the system to gain an advantage, basically taking the mickey out of the partiality of the magistrates they may take offence and take action.

I'm not saying they will, just that it is not a foregone conclusion that this will be an open and shut McLaren slamming case.

[mstillhere]

don't you ever try to make mistakes, they keep getting onto you all the time and you can't even get a away with it.

Once is a mistake twice is.............NOT!!!

[mstillhere]

No, but it might cause them to 'sleep with the fishes'.

Seriously, the Italian magistrates have been vociferous in their attempts to combat that most Italian of problems known as corruption, but this has been driven by a public consensus that it needs to be done and that the people and organisations involved have been getting away with it too long.

Ferrari don't really fall into that category.

Is the Italian judicial system being scrutinized by the "experts" of this forum? 'Cause if I recall correctly, the criminal seating on the bench is not the Italian judicial system, which is imperfect like MANY others (and please don't ask me to give you any examples), but McLaren. Why is it that when the damaged party is British (the Hamilton case) the International community condemned, with no exception, the act of racism against him as demanded, and fairly so, by the English fans, the Secretary of the English sports' office and the entire community offended by those insults. Of course, when the culprit is British what I hear is: well.....well....he's not REALLY bad, well...it's not stealing REALLY, well....it's not like nobody else does it, well.....they did not know, well....nobody got hurt...and so on. And yes I am saying SOME of you are VERY biased against other countries. And you can barely refrain from saying what's really in your mind, because it's..well...maybe racist or hum...politically incorrect to say and that would get in trouble. After all, McLaren got off the hook easy with the FIA. Especially after they got caught cheating the SECOND time. The LAW is a different story. And if you don't want to do the time don't do the crime. Because stealing is a crime, otherwise, why don't you try to explain to me why McLaren did not do the whole spying thing in front of the whole world? I mean, if there is nothing wrong with it, why being so secretive? Why apolozise? Why accepting the punishement and suffering the consequences? Why agreeing in freezing the car's development in the middle of the testing season? Why? Pleeeease, explain that to me.
PS I am so sick and tired of your denial

Is the Italian judicial system being scrutinized by the "experts" of this forum? 'Cause if I recall correctly, the criminal seating on the bench is not the Italian judicial system, which is imperfect like MANY others (and please don't ask me to give you any examples), but McLaren. Why is it that when the damaged party is British (the Hamilton case) the International community condemned, with no exception, the act of racism against him as demanded, and fairly so, by the English fans, the Secretary of the English sports' office and the entire community offended by those insults. Of course, when the culprit is British what I hear is: well.....well....he's not REALLY bad, well...it's not stealing REALLY, well....it's not like nobody else does it, well.....they did not know, well....nobody got hurt...and so on. And yes I am saying SOME of you are VERY biased against other countries. And you can barely refrain from saying what's really in your mind, because it's..well...maybe racist or hum...politically incorrect to say and that would get in trouble. After all, McLaren got off the hook easy with the FIA. Especially after they got caught cheating the SECOND time. The LAW is a different story. And if you don't want to do the time don't do the crime. Because stealing is a crime, otherwise, why don't you try to explain to me why McLaren did not do the whole spying thing in front of the whole world? I mean, if there is nothing wrong with it, why being so secretive? Why apolozise? Why accepting the punishement and suffering the consequences? Why agreeing in freezing the car's development in the middle of the testing season? Why? Pleeeease, explain that to me.
PS I am so sick and tired of your denial

I'm not sure why you should be sick & tired of my 'denial'...I agree with you 100%. I've always condemned Mclaren and would like to see justice done.

[Osella]

As far as I am aware from the transcripts and evidence given, Stepney was referring to an exchange between himself and Coughlan, rather than the teams. If you believe him...ahem...he didn;t think Coughlan would use the information within McLaren, but he was trying to get them to both steal info to take to Honda... To the best of my knowledge, no hard copied or electronic information was ever given to Stepney by Coughlan, and Stepney was also suspended very quickly and searches carried out by the police of his office and home in Italy very promptly, so I think if there was anything to be found it would have been then rather than now.

[Osella]

First, commit a foul on a Football pitch and see if that lands you in Court.

Then handle stolen goods and see if that lands you in Court.

Actually, both can... For example Duncan Ferguson, Premiership footballer was sentenced to jail in England because he headbutted an opponent on the pitch, and the opponent pressed charges of assault. As there were police at the game, and TV cameras all round the pitch, there was pretty compelling evidence. So this further backs up your previous point of sports teams or individuals not being above the law just because a criminal act takes place within a sporting arena..

[mstillhere]

I'm not sure why you should be sick & tired of my 'denial'...I agree with you 100%. I've always condemned Mclaren and would like to see justice done.

Actually, Tamburello, you are correct. What happened is I was reading your message and then I felt I had to write something and totally forgot that I was reading your message. You are one of the very few that have an objective and fair view of the situation. I am sorry. It was my mistake.

[Malbec]

Is the Italian judicial system being scrutinized by the "experts" of this forum? 'Cause if I recall correctly, the criminal seating on the bench is not the Italian judicial system, which is imperfect like MANY others (and please don't ask me to give you any examples), but McLaren. Why is it that when the damaged party is British (the Hamilton case) the International community condemned, with no exception, the act of racism against him as demanded, and fairly so, by the English fans, the Secretary of the English sports' office and the entire community offended by those insults. Of course, when the culprit is British what I hear is: well.....well....he's not REALLY bad, well...it's not stealing REALLY, well....it's not like nobody else does it, well.....they did not know, well....nobody got hurt...and so on. And yes I am saying SOME of you are VERY biased against other countries. And you can barely refrain from saying what's really in your mind, because it's..well...maybe racist or hum...politically incorrect to say and that would get in trouble. After all, McLaren got off the hook easy with the FIA. Especially after they got caught cheating the SECOND time. The LAW is a different story. And if you don't want to do the time don't do the crime. Because stealing is a crime, otherwise, why don't you try to explain to me why McLaren did not do the whole spying thing in front of the whole world? I mean, if there is nothing wrong with it, why being so secretive? Why apolozise? Why accepting the punishement and suffering the consequences? Why agreeing in freezing the car's development in the middle of the testing season? Why? Pleeeease, explain that to me.
PS I am so sick and tired of your denial

Actually if you read both my posts and those of Tamburello that you quote you'll find that we're talking about how the Italian magistrates have recently become keener to dispense real justice and fight corruption properly within Italy.

Thats a compliment not an insult.

(edit - having read your second post you clearly do understand its a compliment, sorry)