Racial abuse of Hamilton in Spain

[fandango]

I think this whole thing has been blown out of context. In Australia, we would call the people taunting Lewis a bunch of yobbo's. Don't judge all Spanish fans by a few idiots that were most likely intoxicated.....

Actually, it's funny you should mention that, because it's quite rare to see people drunk in public in Spain, and I doubt that they were drunk. It's just not really socially acceptable, whereas gleefully insulting Hamilton is. Different values, folks.

Now think about alll those British and Irish holidaymakers and what Spanish people must think of their behaviour all along the Mediterranean coast.

[OTA]

Of course I have to take it personal as in every single news piece that comes about I see the name of Spain highlighted and I'm Spanish, therefore I have the right to feel spoted. I have been in the Monza grandstands listening to people call Alain Prost "*******o, porco franchese(excuse the espelling), and never for a second it came to my mind racism. I have heard in the streets of London "****xxx pakistanis" the same I listen to spanish people call "sudacas" to the people of South America. I have heard my Italians friends yelling in my face things we could all imagine when Milan beated my team( Barcelona) in the final of the champions league and I have surely done the same in the opposite circumstances. Are we racist? Of course not.

I understand racism as the discrimination of someone because of his race, and in Barna if there was something it was hooliganism. I agree that a certain etiquete is to be required from people when they are in a social enviroment, such as a motorsports track, but to analize the insults of one competitor's fans to other competitor as a sign of a racist country is simply out of order.

Last year, I read numerous articles in which Alonso was critizised and in some of them there were remarks saying that may be in Spain is alright to be a blackmailer. Well in Spain it's not alright to blackmail, nor do i know a country in which it is, but I havent't seen any BBC pieces about it.

This is pure oportunism from the part of the mass media, and once again a great example of the lack of depth in todays journalism, which btw it represents our own lack of depth.

Racism is going on at the moment in Kenia, Uganda, Somalia, Saudi Arabia, The United Emirates, but of course we want to have a GP in Dubai. BS and only BS, but of course Spain need to be taught a lesson in civil liberties. I just see a media campaign creating a convinient problem.

Cheers
David

[Roamy]

oMG now the FIA is involved. Can't you euros do anything without the government?? All they are going to do is fuel the fire!! Just throw classless people out of the track and move on!! Which is actually what they should have done in Spain. So while you are at it get rid of guys spiked hair and body piercing and rip klien's ear off as a final move!!

[janneppi]

If the people that shouted at LH comitted a crime they should be tried for it, but the FIA has no authority, neither legal nor moral to coach my country in social behavior. We are more than capable of doing it ourselves.

FIA has every right to protect it's drivers and other personnel from racist slurs wheter Spanish legaislation or moral code regonizes it as a offence or not.
Every single country has racists, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be dealt with in Spain.

[OTA]

The FIA is non-govermental organization and it has none, I repeat no authority in Spanish soil, indeed it has only power over the organizations that agreed to be under their wing. The FIA must ask from permission from the spanish goverment to do an event in Spain, not the other way around. Of course the FIA can take their camp somewhere else, but that's the allways case, racism or not.

Of course every single country has its racist, Spain included, but it had them 3 weeks ago and 3 years ago and 300 hundred years ago. Indeed if the level of racism in Spain is as low as it is today is thanks to the millions of Spanish citizents that decided that racism was not a desirable quality to have as a country.
In my first post about the subject I highlighted the reporting of Spanish press about the incident. It was reported as a negative incident, therefore proving that social forces in Spain are very far away from being racist.

Cheers
David

[Bagwan]

These poor rich people are being picked on , just because they have the the media exposure these racist pigs(apologies to swine and swine herders) need .
How long must they continue to have thier world upset by these unthinking dogs(apologies to dogs and dog herders) , when all they want is to show off how perfect thier world really is ?

Don't these racist clowns(apologies to Krusty and Bozo) know that if you raked the skin off all of us with a coarse cut wood rasp , we all , including the pigs , dogs , and even the clowns would bleed the same colour ?

Bernie and the glitterati are being used , and the hurtfulness must be stopped .
Nobody should be able to manipulate the press like this . It's a disgrace !


And , as for the actual racism , those guys were dressed up like Al Jolson , who was actually a white guy , so they were really calling Hamilton a white guy , dressed up as a black guy ?
And , what about the issue of hue ?
I'm not white . I'm sorta pink , and I am deeply offended by someone calling me white , unless , of course , they are referring to my looking ill . While this has resulted in a lot of law suits with doctors , I must hold fast to my ideals , as they are clearly better than everyone else's .

Amen .

[OTA]

Moreover, if the FIA decided to take the GP out of Spain, and taking for granted that they have a contract to run a GP for a certain amount of time, the FIA could and should be sued for liabilities. I really doubt that racism appears in any of the FIA rulebooks.
The only reason the FIA came about racism is because the Barna incident, and if we were to take the 10, 12 or 1200 people involved in the incident to the High Magistrates court I bet my last euro that there would be found not guility of racist behavior. Where are the lawyers in this forum????

Cheers
David

[Tazio]

Moreover, if the FIA decided to take the GP out of Spain, and taking for granted that they have a contract to run a GP for a certain amount of time, the FIA could and should be sued for liabilities. I really doubt that racism appears in any of the FIA rulebooks.
The only reason the FIA came about racism is because the Barna incident, and if we were to take the 10, 12 or 1200 people involved in the incident to the High Magistrates court I bet my last euro that there would be found not guility of racist behavior. Where are the lawyers in this forum????

Cheers
David
Don't take it as a personal affront!

http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/8106/Anthems/spain.htm

[BDunnell]

Well, they might have "whitened" up, as Spanish people are often a little darker than people to the north of Europe :)

So some things, for you, are racist no matter what the context. At least that's what you seem to be saying.

Not at all. A comedy sketch taking the piss out of racism and racists involving one or more of the performers blacking up would not, in my view, be racist. That is to do with context. I do not believe that the people that are the subject of this thread were being in any sense ironic or satirical.

And as explained earlier, blacking up has a specific connotation, and in this sense it is racist.

[fandango]

Hey BDunnell, have you never heard of Carnaval? Don't you think it's at all possible that you are little uninformed.

I can see why it's shocking for someone in the UK to see those guys blacked-up, but I have tried to explain the context. In fact, it's because I could see both sides to this that I thought I'd give the other perspective. What those guys did is not excusable or defendable, and the circuit authorities ushered them out as is correct, but it wasn't racially motivated. And as far as I know, the original problem was in fact that the team couldn't work due to the noise of the insults, not the content.

It amazes me that people steadfastly hold onto the idea that it was a racist attack, and this "race against racism" is just an insult tp people's intelligence.

[BDunnell]

Hey BDunnell, have you never heard of Carnaval? Don't you think it's at all possible that you are little uninformed.

I can see why it's shocking for someone in the UK to see those guys blacked-up, but I have tried to explain the context. In fact, it's because I could see both sides to this that I thought I'd give the other perspective. What those guys did is not excusable or defendable, and the circuit authorities ushered them out as is correct, but it wasn't racially motivated. And as far as I know, the original problem was in fact that the team couldn't work due to the noise of the insults, not the content.

It amazes me that people steadfastly hold onto the idea that it was a racist attack, and this "race against racism" is just an insult tp people's intelligence.

And it amazes me that people, whatever the 'local' context, can see it as anything other than racist. If that sort of thing is acceptable at Carnaval, I'd be just as uncomfortable with it. Not everything that's 'traditional' should remain acceptable for ever and ever.

[Lemmy-Boy]

This controversy is a typical case of hype and sensationalism from the British media, who will bend over backwards to defend their version of Tiger Woods.

I could care less if fans paint themselves black, yellow or green. People in the stands have a right to criticize any driver whether you like it or not. Did the fans break any laws? Did they psychologically hurt the Lewis to the point where he flew home in tears via his private jet?

Lewis Hamilton is a celebrity and a very rich one. And every celebrity knows that fame and fortune ultimately has a cost. He's a grown boy and will take it like a real man.

Paris Hilton gets more RACIAL abuse from the media and fans, whether she deserves it or not. Do you see the media or any celebrity whore trying to defend her?

In the end, all these bleeding-heart Liberals, Neo-Socialists, left-wing nut huggers, hippies and Communists should suck it up and move on. People will always criticize with a certain amount of tackiness. There are worse injustices in the world going on.

If you want to fight for social equality, your better off talking about "little Johnny" in Ethiopia being forced to fight a war under a sadistic African Warlord. And if you really care about social injustice (that doesn't involve an overpaid driver), join a protest, the United Way or the World Wildlife fund.

[BDunnell]

I could care less if fans paint themselves black, yellow or green. People in the stands have a right to criticize any driver whether you like it or not. Did the fans break any laws? Did they psychologically hurt the Lewis to the point where he flew home in tears via his private jet?

So racism is only unacceptable when the intended recipient suffers psychological hurt, is it?



Lewis Hamilton is a celebrity and a very rich one. And every celebrity knows that fame and fortune ultimately has a cost. He's a grown boy and will take it like a real man.

So racism is only unacceptable when directed at poor people who aren't celebrities, is it?



In the end, all these bleeding-heart Liberals, Neo-Socialists, left-wing nut huggers, hippies and Communists should suck it up and move on. People will always criticize with a certain amount of tackiness. There are worse injustices in the world going on.

If you want to fight for social equality, your better off talking about "little Johnny" in Ethiopia being forced to fight a war under a sadistic African Warlord. And if you really care about social injustice (that doesn't involve an overpaid driver), join a protest, the United Way or the World Wildlife fund.

It is, despite what you might think, possible to be concerned about more than one cause at once. I despise racism and I despise the use of child soldiers. I don't think anyone is saying that this is the worst thing in the world, and must point out that to criticise it is not to say that it is. Quite how that conclusion can be reached, I have no idea.

[fandango]

And it amazes me that people, whatever the 'local' context, can see it as anything other than racist. If that sort of thing is acceptable at Carnaval, I'd be just as uncomfortable with it. Not everything that's 'traditional' should remain acceptable for ever and ever.

Well, put it this way: I see what you mean, but it seems to weaken your argument to say the same thing. These things are not 'local' or 'traditional', as you put it, but simply different (or should I say 'different'?). The world does not revolve around the values of the Anglo-Saxon world, and I think it's been well demonstrated that his whole thing has been blown out of all proportion by the British media, but if you prefer to believe what you read in the papers rather than a 'local' account by a regular (and non-flammable :) ) poster on here, that's fine.

[Lemmy-Boy]

So racism is only unacceptable when the intended recipient suffers psychological hurt, is it?

My statement about being "Psycholgically hurt and crying home VIA HIS PRIVATE JET" was a big exaggeration.

Hamilton is going to make mega-bucks racing for McLaren this year. Will the actions of a few fans hurt his bank account or cause a mere dent with his new Mercedes road car? He's a rich young man and deserves the opportunity given to him. Lewis is laughing all the way to the bank.

This is Forumula One we're talking about, a sport run by very wealthy men, who run very successful businesses. And like the old saying goes, the only color that counts in business is the color of Money.

These cries of racism deserve to be debated in the halls of academia.


So racism is only unacceptable when directed at poor people who aren't celebrities, is it?

It's called a "Two Edge Sword" carried by the media. They pick and choose stories that gains readership, ratings, and more advertising revenues! Racism is not a moral code they're defending, it's their net income and stock portfolios they really care about.


The media is basically PIMIPING Lewis Hamilton and his color to make more money. Do I blame them? Not a single bit. This is business were talking about.


I despise racism and I despise the use of child soldiers...

I'm a visible minority who despises racism as well. However, in the world of business ( a la F1), racism will not stop me from forwarding my financial interests or the progress of my business. Racism is just a mere obstacle that can be overlooked. What really counts in the end is the bottom line - Money.

[Malbec]

Moreover, if the FIA decided to take the GP out of Spain, and taking for granted that they have a contract to run a GP for a certain amount of time, the FIA could and should be sued for liabilities. I really doubt that racism appears in any of the FIA rulebooks.
The only reason the FIA came about racism is because the Barna incident, and if we were to take the 10, 12 or 1200 people involved in the incident to the High Magistrates court I bet my last euro that there would be found not guility of racist behavior. Where are the lawyers in this forum????

Cheers
David

I'm afraid you're wrong.

The races over which the FIA presides must adhere to strict FIA guidelines and be in accordance with the FIA constitution. Otherwise the FIA is perfectly within its rights to halt races if the race organisers cannot meet those standards.

Obviously most of those guidelines are going to be about racing safety with respect to drivers, crew and spectators but the FIA constitution does contain several tracts relating to the prevention of racism.

The FIA also insists that races are free of political content. The Turks found out last year that their little joke whereby the President of Turkish occupied Cyprus awarded the prizes in 2006 that they were lucky not to have their race cancelled. Instead the race organisers were deliberately bankrupted by a huge fine and Bernie bought the race.

[markabilly]

The FIA also insists that races are free of political content. The Turks found out last year that their little joke whereby the President of Turkish occupied Cyprus awarded the prizes in 2006 that they were lucky not to have their race cancelled. Instead the race organisers were deliberately bankrupted by a huge fine and Bernie bought the race.
Suuuhush up, you be giving Bernie ideas about taking over Spain and other races

OTOH, if blacking out is enuogh to get a country banned, I will be getting my makeup on....first I am headed to Turkey, to China, to....however many it would take to bankrupt Bernie boy :D

[Roamy]

wow what a whack thread this is. Racism is here to stay. teach you kids and make them a example of what you believe. Now most of you on here need to go get a Dafur family and move them into your house and show your true beliefs. Get over the little rich kid and go to the aid of those who need you.

[dj4monie]

Okay a few things -

I am black first of all. I believe Europeans as a whole have it correct. The word "Black" is not an issue, but when you use it to say "Hey that Black Dude Over there prevented Alonso from winning the Championship" That is singling out Hamilton because of his skin color.

Obviously there is not another "Hamilton" you could have just said that guy Hamilton sucks nobody would have a problem with it, but you add "black" for shock value hoping to insult that person.

Ah that is RACISM....

Auto Racing by and large is a Anglo/Caucasian sport because it requires MONEY. Being that many Africans and Black Americans have a tough time even feeding and clothing their children, you can understand the rarity of having anybody of color in sports traditionally

As the American and UK middle class have grown it was only a matter of time before Black people got involved in sports beyond the traditional stick and ball sports you normally associate Black people with.

James "Bubba" Stewart and Lewis Hamilton are pioneers of their respective sports and excel at it.

In the 21st Century we have to move as a culture this is Western Culture we are talking about here, away from institutional racism, but those that don't agree you'll have to pull kicking and screaming along because they just don't see it the way we do.

Americans won't tell you there's a system of institutional racism in America, I have to have some Canadian guy tell me in Germany!

Of course I already KNEW that, any true progressive thinker knows that as well.

Will there be Klan members in the stands at Daytona this weekend? You bet your ass!

Is that okay?

Having an opinion is one thing, using force to promote your agenda is completely something else and your ass should be stomped on for it.

The FIA did the PC thing and denounced it. But I feel deep down that the FIA could do without racism and acted accordingly.

This only made the news on this site and in minor racing circles, its not a cover story on Yahoo or MSN for example and I haven't checked ESPN.

Now if Tony Stewart said "That n++++ doesn't know what's his talking about..." It would be ALL over North American and International Media.

This was just a blip on the radar and actually just like here in the States, if you can't control your fans, we'll (The FIA) take events away from you is the right thing to do.

[dj4monie]

wow what a whack thread this is. Racism is here to stay. teach you kids and make them a example of what you believe. Now most of you on here need to go get a Dafur family and move them into your house and show your true beliefs. Get over the little rich kid and go to the aid of those who need you.

Why is here to stay?????

When those with no money and no power have had enough and take back control of the Democratic Party and say Racism is OVER, then it will BE OVER.

That's not to say people won't stupid, stick and stones, but take it beyond that and you should be sitting in a nice federal jail cell.

There is a bit of racism in all of us, however when you marginalize one race to keep down another, that's not right and that's a problem...

[dj4monie]

This controversy is a typical case of hype and sensationalism from the British media, who will bend over backwards to defend their version of Tiger Woods.

I could care less if fans paint themselves black, yellow or green. People in the stands have a right to criticize any driver whether you like it or not. Did the fans break any laws? Did they psychologically hurt the Lewis to the point where he flew home in tears via his private jet?

Lewis Hamilton is a celebrity and a very rich one. And every celebrity knows that fame and fortune ultimately has a cost. He's a grown boy and will take it like a real man.

Paris Hilton gets more RACIAL abuse from the media and fans, whether she deserves it or not. Do you see the media or any celebrity whore trying to defend her?

In the end, all these bleeding-heart Liberals, Neo-Socialists, left-wing nut huggers, hippies and Communists should suck it up and move on. People will always criticize with a certain amount of tackiness. There are worse injustices in the world going on.

If you want to fight for social equality, your better off talking about "little Johnny" in Ethiopia being forced to fight a war under a sadistic African Warlord. And if you really care about social injustice (that doesn't involve an overpaid driver), join a protest, the United Way or the World Wildlife fund.

How about you join the NAACP....

**** what happens elsewhere in the world we have our own problems with deal with.

Its called White Supremacy!

Which carries over into our everyday life. I accept that racism is alive and well, but that doesn't make it right nor I should ignore it. It could KILL me someday, NO.

[Lemmy-Boy]

Did you forget? F1 is also business (run by neo conservative and capitalist billionaires), where the only color that counts is the color of MONEY.

Too bad eh? You might as well turn off the TV, stop watching F1 and go camping with your nut-hugging buddies.

[janneppi]

Keep this about the subject in hand, don't wander into international politics or other futile matters, thanks.

And for those posting the first time in the F1 section here, read the first sticky topic and live by it.

[OTA]

I was wrong indeed. I went back and check FIA statutes and there is a mention in which discrimination won't be allowed due to religion, race, gender.
It doesn't change my opinion much, but credit where credit is due.
Cheers
David

[OTA]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article3341989.ece


cheers
david

[Tazio]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article3341989.ece



cheers
david

http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/8106/Anthems/spain.htm

[BDunnell]

Did you forget? F1 is also business (run by neo conservative and capitalist billionaires), where the only color that counts is the color of MONEY.

Too bad eh? You might as well turn off the TV, stop watching F1 and go camping with your nut-hugging buddies.

Those of us who despise the behaviour witnessed the other week will not, sadly, be stopped from watching F1 because we're in some way too left-wing for it, I'm afraid. Racism is not an integral part of F1, and neither does it automatically have to go with the business side of the sport — or any form of big business for that matter.

[Malbec]

Did you forget? F1 is also business (run by neo conservative and capitalist billionaires), where the only color that counts is the color of MONEY.

You're absolutely right.

Multinationals who are buying into F1 for publicity and profit are not going to be wanting their brands linked to racism. Some of these guys (especially banks and IT) stayed out of F1 during the tobacco days because they didn't want to be associated with that kind of thing, they're going to be even more put off by being connected to racism.

Money does talk. If F1 is publicly perceived to be tolerant of racism it can kiss a boatload of sponsors goodbye.

[BDunnell]

You're absolutely right.

Multinationals who are buying into F1 for publicity and profit are not going to be wanting their brands linked to racism. Some of these guys (especially banks and IT) stayed out of F1 during the tobacco days because they didn't want to be associated with that kind of thing, they're going to be even more put off by being connected to racism.

Money does talk. If F1 is publicly perceived to be tolerant of racism it can kiss a boatload of sponsors goodbye.

In fact, with this in mind, I can't help wondering whether the FIA has done more damage than good with its anti-racism drive, because I don't believe that what happened in Spain was the start of a mass outbreak of racism within F1 audiences. By all means condemn racism and deal with the specific incident, but don't turn it into an 'issue' when it isn't, being instead a very unpleasant individual event.

[fandango]

Although I may be coming at it from a different perspective, I agree with you on that, BDunnell.

[wmcot]

In fact, with this in mind, I can't help wondering whether the FIA has done more damage than good with its anti-racism drive, because I don't believe that what happened in Spain was the start of a mass outbreak of racism within F1 audiences. By all means condemn racism and deal with the specific incident, but don't turn it into an 'issue' when it isn't, being instead a very unpleasant individual event.

I'm afraid that with all the publicity given to these idiots, we'll be seeing more bunches of the same idiots at most (if not all) races this year.

I totally agree that racism is wrong and not to be tolerated. The only thing more wrong is the news media making money off it!

[BDunnell]

I'm afraid that with all the publicity given to these idiots, we'll be seeing more bunches of the same idiots at most (if not all) races this year.

I don't know why, but I simply can't imagine that this will be the case.



I totally agree that racism is wrong and not to be tolerated. The only thing more wrong is the news media making money off it!

You can hardly blame the media for covering it, though, purely because the incident was so unexpected.

[Tazio]

I think this article is an excellent read. It adds perspective, and context to the events in Barcelona, as well as the adversarial relationship between FA, and LH fans

http://www.forumula1.net/2008/f1/f1-news/analysis-the-day-f1-went-tabloid/
Here is a small excerpt:

"There are thousands of fans who are simply devoted to their man Alonso; he quite literally put F1 on the map in Spain. The resentment towards Hamilton is an inevitable upshot of this alliance. It is a sporting fact of life. Just as Arsenal would not expect to be welcomed with open arms at White Hart Lane, so, Hamilton should not expect to be given an easy ride in Spain.

The row over team favouritism in 2007 no doubt adds fuel to the anti-Hamilton fire in Spain, but even if there had been no such controversy, the hatred towards Hamilton would continue to exist by simple virtue of the way he upstaged Alonso on several occasions. How many of us have jeered and sledged other drivers that threaten those we support, in the comfort of our own living room?

The press on both sides of the Mediterranean also played their part in fuelling the rivalry. As Uruñuela explains:

“The British media have also created and nourished the controversy [over team favouritism], in such a way that even the Spanish fans were happy when Hamilton and McLaren lost the championship.”

Quite. Uruñuela touches on an important point here. It is not so much, in my view, that Spanish fans blame Mclaren and Hamilton for Alonso’s failure to win the championship. But rather that Hamilton’s failure was, in the context of Alonso’s disappointment, the next best thing, something to celebrate and get ‘happy’ about. It is a natural sporting reaction. Again, how many of us have celebrated the retirement of a rival driver?"

[wmcot]

I don't know why, but I simply can't imagine that this will be the case.

There are a lot of Alonso fans, Hamilton haters, and just plain idiot followers out there!



You can hardly blame the media for covering it, though, purely because the incident was so unexpected.

"Covering" it would be one thing, but "milking" it for increased sales is quite another.

[Tomi]

I totally agree that racism is wrong and not to be tolerated. The only thing more wrong is the news media making money off it!

I strongly disagree, to stay quiet and imagine that nothing did happen would be a cheap way out.

[ioan]

I strongly disagree, to stay quiet and imagine that nothing did happen would be a cheap way out.

Racial insults directed to more or less important people happen every day in the world.

Just because now it happened to Lewis Hamilton that they called him black "whatever" it isn't worse.
In fact what happened at those tests were Spanish fans insulting him because of what went on last year within the McLaren team. It had nothing to do with Lewis' skin color. He was not insulted based of racial differences but because of a divergence of opinions on sporting matters.

There was no racial abuse, it was just plain and simple frustration vented by Spanish fans.
However, as pointed out by other forum members, the news papers did take it to another level and made it a front page story, when it clearly wasn't.

[Tomi]

Racial insults directed to more or less important people happen every day in the world.

I know that, that's why its good that the press take it up atleast now when it happens to a more known guy, who knows maybe some of the narrowminded racists who can read start to think about what their views are actually based on.

[markabilly]

I know that, that's why its good that the press take it up atleast now when it happens to a more known guy, who knows maybe some of the narrowminded racists who can read start to think about what their views are actually based on.


"who knows maybe some of the narrowminded racists who can read start to think about what their views are actually based on."

Racists already know that, and it will not make any diffference, at least with those few who can actually read


as i suspicioned before, i do not think these were racists but people who were using race to inflame and insult someone they did not like, and in the process, stir up a bunch of noise. And they succeeded.

And I remain steadfast in my belief, that if such "make-up" were treated as a sign of affection and admiration by fans, that black is not a sign of inferiority, rather than making an immediate reactive outraged assumption that it is the insults of racists, then everyone would be better off, and such behavior would no longer have its intended effect (which said "intended effect" has been very successful as demonstrated here and in the media)

But oh well, whatever.....

[gloomyDAY]

I got laid by a Spanish girl and I'm darker than Hamilton!

The fans who teased Lewis are morons, but the bigger losers in this debacle are the British media. Just leave this as an isolated incident. Lewis hasn't mentioned anything else about the incident and the whole "anti-racism campaign" is silly. What are the Spanish fans going to think when they're all labeled as racists?

Spaniards are good people with a great sense of morality and values. Stop slapping this issue around as if you are the victim.

[BDunnell]

Racial insults directed to more or less important people happen every day in the world.

Just because now it happened to Lewis Hamilton that they called him black "whatever" it isn't worse.
In fact what happened at those tests were Spanish fans insulting him because of what went on last year within the McLaren team. It had nothing to do with Lewis' skin color. He was not insulted based of racial differences but because of a divergence of opinions on sporting matters.

There was no racial abuse, it was just plain and simple frustration vented by Spanish fans.
However, as pointed out by other forum members, the news papers did take it to another level and made it a front page story, when it clearly wasn't.

I think what you say came into it to a large extent, but surely the abuse was also racial, because of the specific nature of the abuse. After all, there are lots of reasons behind many racist incidents other than just skin colour — poverty, lack of education, etc.

[BDunnell]

I got laid by a Spanish girl and I'm darker than Hamilton!

The fans who teased Lewis are morons, but the bigger losers in this debacle are the British media. Just leave this as an isolated incident. Lewis hasn't mentioned anything else about the incident and the whole "anti-racism campaign" is silly. What are the Spanish fans going to think when they're all labeled as racists?

Spaniards are good people with a great sense of morality and values. Stop slapping this issue around as if you are the victim.

To be honest, the British media has hardly made anything of this. It hasn't been plastered all over the papers and news bulletins. As I said before, the over-reaction has been on the part of the FIA. Bernie Ecclestone's comments on BBC Radio this morning were along these lines, and very sensible.

[Osella]

To be honest, the British media has hardly made anything of this. It hasn't been plastered all over the papers and news bulletins. As I said before, the over-reaction has been on the part of the FIA. Bernie Ecclestone's comments on BBC Radio this morning were along these lines, and very sensible.

Well, apart from being plastered all over the front page of The Sun, which happens to be the biggest selling newspaper in the country! Also given huge coverage on the BBC radio and TV news bulletins..

However, totally agree about the comments of Bernie, which seem to also tally with a lot of forum member's opinions :up:

[Valve Bounce]

Good grief!! is this thread still running? :rolleyes:

[airshifter]

Good grief!! is this thread still running? :rolleyes:

Yes it is.

I would also like to ask that you remove the smiley from your post. It is offensive to those of us that have Martian bloodlines. :laugh:




I don't think any less of Spain or any Spanish people because of what happened, nor do I think any less of Alonso fans regardless of nationaltiy. But I do think what happend had racial motivations in some instances, and I'm glad the FIA doesn't intend to tolerate it.

Let the fools spend their money and get kicked out of races. At some point they will probably get more than that kicked if they get stupid in front of the wrong crowd.

[ioan]

I think what you say came into it to a large extent, but surely the abuse was also racial, because of the specific nature of the abuse. After all, there are lots of reasons behind many racist incidents other than just skin colour — poverty, lack of education, etc.

As you say. Only that in this case the abuse was due to other things than color of skin. That's why I do not consider it a racial abuse, but more like a sporting hooliganism with very very light racial connotation (mainly because of the word black being used by those people).

[leopard]

Did they use word black? It might only refer to the black of McLaren car. :D

[Valve Bounce]

Did they use word black? It might only refer to the black of McLaren car. :D

I suppose you missed the pics showing these idiots had blacked their faces in making their jibes. However, it is my understanding that the term black was used in their taunts.

[maxu05]

I am shocked, that for the first time ever, I agree with Bernie. I think the media is making a mountain out of a mole hill. I think this was an isolated incident, a small minority of people being stupid, that's all it is IMO. We should all put this thing to bed and move on.

[I am evil Homer]

As you say. Only that in this case the abuse was due to other things than color of skin. That's why I do not consider it a racial abuse, but more like a sporting hooliganism with very very light racial connotation (mainly because of the word black being used by those people).

"light racial connotation"....oh well that's okay then, so long as it was only "light". Get a grip. They painted their faces black and wrote "Hamilton's Family" on their shirts. It took effort and a concious decision to do it.

It wasn't "McLaren suck...we hate Hamilton" or "Alonso is better than you" - that would have been sporting hooliganism based on their support of Alonso. They specifically used his skin colour.

[maxu05]

What is it with skin colour ? What colour is Lewis ? Brown, mahogany, ebony, black, pink ? I see Chinese girls every day that buy make up and cosmetics to try to make their skin white. I often say to them that your skin colour does not matter. I meet many people here, and some them will point at me, in a rather rude way, as they have never seen a foreigner before. If I get upset every time this happens, I could not do my job. I think it is bad, what happened in Spain, and the authorities should not let this kind of thing happen again, but, the media has blown it up to be a bigger issue than it is. Most people these days do not tolerate this kind of thing, and I would hope that this will blow away like Bernies Hair piece.

[leopard]

I suppose you missed the pics showing these idiots had blacked their faces in making their jibes. However, it is my understanding that the term black was used in their taunts.

Soccer fans have the more straight insult to their opponent. They wrote blasphemies everywhere.

As long as they do that insult somewhere not in front of Hamilton by unrecognized people, Hamilton will not take it too much. This is not a right manner to support our driver though.

[ioan]

"light racial connotation"....oh well that's okay then, so long as it was only "light". Get a grip. They painted their faces black and wrote "Hamilton's Family" on their shirts. It took effort and a concious decision to do it.

It wasn't "McLaren suck...we hate Hamilton" or "Alonso is better than you" - that would have been sporting hooliganism based on their support of Alonso. They specifically used his skin colour.

:rolleyes: Go ahead and make an elephant out of a mosquito if it makes you happy. That's exactly what the newspapers did in an attempt to sell more.

And what if "They painted their faces black and wrote "Hamilton's Family" on their shirts." ??? Is that racial abuse?
Painting your faces whatever color you want is not considered racial abuse, unless someone wants to see it like that.

What happened at that testing session was nowhere near what I've seen before and what IS called racial abuse.

[BDunnell]

And what if "They painted their faces black and wrote "Hamilton's Family" on their shirts." ??? Is that racial abuse?
Painting your faces whatever color you want is not considered racial abuse, unless someone wants to see it like that.

Yes, and yes it is by a lot of people.



What happened at that testing session was nowhere near what I've seen before and what IS called racial abuse.

What was that, then?

I consider throwing bananas at black footballers to be racist, and I consider this to be racist.

[OTA]

So what should we consider Eddie Murphy in his "Eddie Murphy Live".

So what happens when white people make a caricature of a black person. Are they racist?

Cheers
David

[BDunnell]

So what should we consider Eddie Murphy in his "Eddie Murphy Live".

So what happens when white people make a caricature of a black person. Are they racist?

Cheers
David

As is obvious to most, context is important. This goes for caricatures as well. Should a white impressionist black up in order to depict Barack Obama, for instance?

[OTA]

If he want's to caricaturizise Obama, he has to black up.

Cheers
David

[Valve Bounce]

I think we are covering old ground here.

[Garry Walker]

I consider throwing bananas at black footballers to be racist, and I consider this to be racist.
What about throwing bananas at white footballers? Is that racist too?
What about if a black guy paints his face white, is that racist?


This case is a no-story, blown up by the media and by the politically correct police. You guys have no idea of what racism is, if you place so much importance on this case. None whatsoever.

[gloomyDAY]

Die thread, die!

Shut this thread down you loveable Finn.

[jens]

I haven't posted in this thread yet and with a good reason. In my opinion in this case people are seriously overreacting considering the amount of people, who were showing their hate against Hamilton in such way and also considering their methods, which thankfully were nothing more than psychological. Surely racism can't be tolerated, but I'm afraid that with such huge amount of attention (even by the members of governments if I remember correctly) they (racists) might even get extra motivation for further actions...

[BDunnell]

What about throwing bananas at white footballers? Is that racist too?

No, because that is not a highly specific insult, unlike the example I cited.



This case is a no-story, blown up by the media and by the politically correct police. You guys have no idea of what racism is, if you place so much importance on this case. None whatsoever.

Earlier on, I asked you to provide an example of what you consider to be racism. Are you going to offer one?

[BDunnell]

I haven't posted in this thread yet and with a good reason. In my opinion in this case people are seriously overreacting considering the amount of people, who were showing their hate against Hamilton in such way and also considering their methods, which thankfully were nothing more than psychological. Surely racism can't be tolerated, but I'm afraid that with such huge amount of attention (even by the members of governments if I remember correctly) they (racists) might even get extra motivation for further actions...

I do think there has been an over-reaction in some quarters, but don't believe that showing racism in the media has any negative effect in terms of encouraging others to become racist or demonstrate racism. I can't remember any examples of this happening. It's like the argument that watching violent films encourages violence — rather spurious.

[Garry Walker]

Earlier on, I asked you to provide an example of what you consider to be racism. Are you going to offer one?

Where? I have posted once in this thread.


But would you answer my question - if a black guy painted his face white, would it be considered racism?

[BDunnell]

Where? I have posted once in this thread.

Somewhere or other. I'm not imagining it.

EDIT — Actually, I was getting you muddled up with ioan, which is almost ironic. Apologies.



But would you answer my question - if a black guy painted his face white, would it be considered racism?

Blacking up is a specific insult, though, as I said earlier, there is perhaps one specific circumstance in which it is not automatically racist — if used satirically. Whiting-up isn't.

Anyway, I am perfectly happy with my personal definition of racism.

[Garry Walker]

Somewhere or other. I'm not imagining it.

EDIT — Actually, I was getting you muddled up with ioan, which is almost ironic. Apologies.



Blacking up is a specific insult, though, as I said earlier, there is perhaps one specific circumstance in which it is not automatically racist — if used satirically. Whiting-up isn't.

Anyway, I am perfectly happy with my personal definition of racism.

I cant see how blacking up or whiting up are different at all. Both are about equally as racist as the other. I for one don`t see anything remotely offensive about them at all. Anyway, maybe it is because I have seen "racism" closely and been faced with it in a violent situation, I don`t get myself worked up over something as irrelevant as this. It really is nothing at all.

Races should be treated equally. At the moment it seems like anything against a black person is racism at once, whereas things against a white person are waived off as irrelevant and non-racist, even if similar case would at once be considered racist against a black person.
I don`t think that is fair at all and people need to understand that there is just as much racism from other races towards whites as there is from whites towards other races.

[ShiftingGears]

I cant see how blacking up or whiting up are different at all. Both are about equally as racist as the other. I for one don`t see anything remotely offensive about them at all. Anyway, maybe it is because I have seen "racism" closely and been faced with it in a violent situation, I don`t get myself worked up over something as irrelevant as this. It really is nothing at all.


Yes. Some people are acting as if they were in KKK suits and holding nooses. That's closer to racism - when people are using symbols of racial hate towards someone else. NOT when people are exaggerating physical appearances because of unrelated issues.

What happened is exactly the same as if fans of, say, Kubica were trying to nastily exaggerate Heidfelds Bjorn Borg look. Ouch. :rolleyes:

[ArrowsFA1]

At the moment it seems like anything against a black person is racism at once, whereas things against a white person are waived off as irrelevant and non-racist, even if similar case would at once be considered racist against a black person.
I don`t think that is fair at all and people need to understand that there is just as much racism from other races towards whites as there is from whites towards other races.
But that is no argument for ignoring racism in whatever form it appears.

In this context the fans could have shown their displeasure towards Hamilton/McLaren without using race as their "weapon" of choice.

[Valve Bounce]

Die thread, die!

Shut this thread down you lovable Finn.

Can we have a poll on this lease pino. "Yes" for shut down, and "No" for continue this discussion which has descended into silliness.

[ioan]

Aren't you people afraid of wearing black shoes or other black clothes?
After all it might be interpreted as racism by some highly sensible and politically correct people!
And don't you dare to buy black shoe shine again, you might get arrested because they might think you are preparing to put forth some racial abuse.

Bah! I'm losing any seriousness I had about this subject.

Shut this stupid thread at once.

[janneppi]

If you are unable to post anything relevant to the subject, which is the "Spain incident", don't post into the thread, it's that simple.

I'll give it a day or two more.

[Tazio]

If you are unable to post anything relevant to the subject, which is the "Spain incident", don't post into the thread, it's that simple.

I'll give it a day or two more.
No! Please close it now. The subject has been over-analyzed!

[Big Ben]

It wasn't "McLaren suck...we hate Hamilton" or "Alonso is better than you" - that would have been sporting hooliganism

hooliganism at its worst. :laugh:

[Bagwan]

Here's a thought that backs the idea that some of our Spanish friends on the board have been saying :

I have read no reports of these black-faced fools being abused by the rest of the crowd .
You would think that if it were seen to be as utterly wrong as is portrayed in the world media , that these fools would have been thumped long before they got to their seats and hurled vocal abuse .


What happens now , if Takuma runs Kimi off the road ?
Will we see Finns in sumo suits in the crowd ?
If Heidfeld takes out Barrichello , will Brazilians were lederhosen ?
If Coulthard flys over Wurz , will Germans don kilts ?

I think they should .
That's how best to deal with all this . Laugh at it .

[wmcot]

What happens now , if Takuma runs Kimi off the road ?
Will we see Finns in sumo suits in the crowd ?
If Heidfeld takes out Barrichello , will Brazilians were lederhosen ?
If Coulthard flys over Wurz , will Germans don kilts ?


Good one! :)

[SGWilko]

I am glad this thread is still open.

For those of you still sceptical about the motives of the few stupid people that started all this hoo haa off, go and watch this cracking film - Crash.

If you watch it, have a real long think about it, then try to honestly answer this question.....

If those stupid few in the crowd in Spain were not being subconsciously racist, why did they feel the need to paint their faces black? Would not writing the reference to Hamilton's Family on their shirts not have sufficed????

You don't have to mean to be a racist to come across as one.......

[ShiftingGears]

Would not writing the reference to Hamilton's Family on their shirts not have sufficed????

You don't have to mean to be a racist to come across as one.......

No. Because it isn't parodising Hamiltons physical features! What would be the point of that?

It's like if someone wore "Alonso's family" T-shirts and didnt have massive eyebrows. It's not a big deal.

[SGWilko]

No. Because it isn't parodising Hamiltons physical features! What would be the point of that?

It's like if someone wore "Alonso's family" T-shirts and didnt have massive eyebrows. It's not a big deal.

You can shave your eyebrows if you have an issue with them, but unless you are as nutty as M Jackson, changing your skin colour is not an option, and shouldn't really be a consideration.....

[ioan]

I am glad this thread is still open.

For those of you still sceptical about the motives of the few stupid people that started all this hoo haa off, go and watch this cracking film - Crash.

If you watch it, have a real long think about it, then try to honestly answer this question.....

If those stupid few in the crowd in Spain were not being subconsciously racist, why did they feel the need to paint their faces black? Would not writing the reference to Hamilton's Family on their shirts not have sufficed????

You don't have to mean to be a racist to come across as one.......

Given that subconscious =/= conscious it can't be used to define someone. And I will not give you any example as I might offend some people around here.

[BDunnell]

No. Because it isn't parodising Hamiltons physical features! What would be the point of that?

It's like if someone wore "Alonso's family" T-shirts and didnt have massive eyebrows. It's not a big deal.

There is simply no comparison between being derogatory about someone's eyebrows and being derogatory about someone's race.

[BDunnell]

You don't have to mean to be a racist to come across as one.......

:up:

I believe far too many people have got it into their heads that we are all so limited by 'political correctness', whatever that over-used phrase means (I have never felt affected or limited by that concept, by the way) that they now feel that almost anything is acceptable in the name of being 'politically incorrect'. This leads to some very skewed views of what is racist and what isn't, what is homophobic and what isn't, and so on. We are seeing some of that here.

[fandango]

Recently Samuel Eto'o (Barça football star, who happens to be black) was being interviewed by journalists after a training session. As he was speaking Ronaldinho passed by behind him on his way home. Eto'o finished his sentence and casually called "Adiós, negro!" to Ronaldinho. They both laughed. Is this racist?

What's clearly racist in one country is not automatically racist in another. Context is important, and Spain doesn't have the same guilty conscience as some countries (at least not yet, anyway).

One thing that has annoyed me about this incident was how the British press tried to turn it into a study of racism in Spain as a whole. Even Franco got a mention! This lazy journalism does more damage that those idiots at the circuit. Imagine how the British would feel if every article about racism in Britain harked back to the empire's slave trade.

[ioan]

What's clearly racist in one country is not automatically racist in another. Context is important, and Spain doesn't have the same guilty conscience as some countries (at least not yet, anyway).

One thing that has annoyed me about this incident was how the British press tried to turn it into a study of racism in Spain as a whole. Even Franco got a mention! This lazy journalism does more damage that those idiots at the circuit. Imagine how the British would feel if every article about racism in Britain harked back to the empire's slave trade.

I think you hit the nail on its head! :up:

[PSfan]

I get the impression sometimes that the only real reason to focus on Anthony Hamilton is because he is the only Badly dressed black man on pit lane.

it looks more like the attention the Sr. Hamilton is getting is as much based on race, and maybe a little nationality then any f1 revelance...



I posted that way back in July... There was a good chance that after all the media attention that "Hamilton's real family" received that this kinda "prank" to get attention would happen...

I lay blame squarly at the feet of the British Press and at F.O.M. for this stupidity...

[ArrowsFA1]

Fernando Alonso has commented (http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?seriesId=6&id=3255381) on the situation:

"This is not a racist country. This was an isolated thing -- and the less it is talked about, the better."

"There were people enjoying Carnival and look what happened. They call me a dog and no one comes out in my defense."

"I don't think we need an anti-racist campaign like FIA want to organize for the Grand Prix at Barcelona."

[ShiftingGears]

There is simply no comparison between being derogatory about someone's eyebrows and being derogatory about someone's race.

There is. It's just a physical feature that they're parodising.

[ShiftingGears]

You can shave your eyebrows if you have an issue with them, but unless you are as nutty as M Jackson, changing your skin colour is not an option, and shouldn't really be a consideration.....

I don't see how thats relevant.

[SGWilko]

I don't see how thats relevant.

I don't ever recall people with bushy eyebrows being treated as slaves way back when, but I think you'll find blacks were.

Slavery, no matter what anyone tells you, is not a good thing, and clearly, the social stigma of a RACE that was treated so poorly by the white man is a hard one to be free of.

And so the vicious circle goes on, and on, and on.............

[Daniel]

There is. It's just a physical feature that they're parodising.

I quite agree. I don't see why making fun of someone's eyebrows is funny but their skin isn't. People from Southern Europe have more facial hair than people from Northern Europe. OMFG anyone making fun of Alonso's eyebrow is racist!!!! ALERT ALERT ALERT!!!!!!

I haven't analysed the pictures over and over again as people have done here but I didn't actually see anything overtly racist about them.

In Australia you can buy tartan hats with bright orange hair coming out of the sides. Is this racist towards Scottish people? If this was Coulthard we were talking about and the Spaniards (Making thean assumption here) were wearing these sort of hats would there be such an outcry?

Britain opressed, killed, took children away from parents and much worse to non-white people for hundreds of years and now it gets worked up when a few people black up...... don't make me laugh.....

Racism is an interesting issue and I'm all for stamping it out when people are trying to make someone feel bad because they're different. But at the end of the day if you line an American Indian, a Japanese person, an Indian, an Aboriginal Australian, an African and a European person up you'd realise that although we're very much the same there are a lot of superficial things that are different. Lets not deny that people are different and come down upon anyone who shows that even in a non-negative way.

A few years ago in Australia there was a show called "The Late Show" and a few times one of the people blacked up to parody Archbishop Desmond Tutu. Having a non-blacked up white person parodying Tutu would have been as unconvincing as having a thin guy play Henry VIII in his latter days.

So in summary the issue has been blown way out of proportion and if it had been done in another way against someone who wasn't black I doubt it would have made the "news". This sad excuse for journalism diverts the attention from REAL racism. Until I've heard recordings the alleged racist taunts could have just been made up or embelished by people who were there to give a racist angle to some blacked up drunk guys with wigs on.

[Daniel]

I don't ever recall people with bushy eyebrows being treated as slaves way back when, but I think you'll find blacks were.

Slavery, no matter what anyone tells you, is not a good thing, and clearly, the social stigma of a RACE that was treated so poorly by the white man is a hard one to be free of.

Ah ok so I get it now. Just because Britain ****ed up and got involved with slavery, opression and killing black people now it's not OK to black up but if they hadn't it would have been OK?

At the end of the day if you want to make fun of my South African heritage by doing silly accents I have no problem with that to be honest beyond the fact that it's annoying. But make any suggestion at all that being of South African blood makes me inferior and boy you better watch out......

[janneppi]

So in summary the issue has been blown way out of proportion and if it had been done in another way against someone who wasn't black I doubt it would have made the "news".
Isn't that just the point, it was done using his skin color as a means to have a laugh at him. Had it been done different, it wouldn't be in the news because it wouldn't have been an issue in the first place.
the way it was done however is a issue, albeit milked for all it's worth and more.

[ShiftingGears]

I don't ever recall people with bushy eyebrows being treated as slaves way back when, but I think you'll find blacks were.

Slavery, no matter what anyone tells you, is not a good thing, and clearly, the social stigma of a RACE that was treated so poorly by the white man is a hard one to be free of.

And so the vicious circle goes on, and on, and on.............

They are making fun of Hamilton by parodising his physical features, not making fun of the fact that black people used to be slaves.

You made that link between "blacking up" and connotations of slavery in your head and it is not supported by any evidence at all.

[Daniel]

Isn't that just the point, it was done using his skin color as a means to have a laugh at him. Had it been done different, it wouldn't be in the news because it wouldn't have been an issue in the first place.
the way it was done however is a issue, albeit milked for all it's worth and more.
What I mean though is that if someone had whited up then it wouldn't really have been an issue.

It's all about negativity.

I have a Northern Irish mate who I play FPS games online with and he regularly calls me an "Australian b******" and I call him a Paddy and say things in mock Irish accents like "Stroke me clover!" and "t'be shure t'be shure". Of course that's racial. But is it being negative? No! Does it offend either of us? No! Is it racist? Apparently so :crazy: Of course if he asked me not to say those things I would be happy to do so but he's good humoured and proud of his heritage and doesn't consider that I'm being negative about it so is happy for the racial abuse to continue :)

Perhaps I'm making assumptions here but I don't anticipate fandango reply to me angrily about how I'm being racist towards Irish people or something. I think he's shown that he can grasp the concept of humour which involves someone's racial background without being negative about their racial background.

P.S Janneppi ;) Don't Finns make fun of Swedes? Is that racist? :)

[janneppi]

I have a Northern Irish mate who I play FPS games online with and he regularly calls me an "Australian b******" and I call him a Paddy and say things in mock Irish accents like "Stroke me clover!" and "t'be shure t'be shure". Of course that's racial. But is it being negative? No! Does it offend either of us? No! Is it racist? Apparently so :crazy: Of course if he asked me not to say those things I would be happy to do so.
I bet you wouldn't those same things to complete stranger. It's about context as has been said before. I don't expect the people who blacked up or shouted at Hamilton to be his mates who were there to have fun with him.



P.S Janneppi ;) Don't Finns make fun of Swedes? Is that racist? :)
I don't think nationalities to be homogenous enough to be called a race, so no, I wouldn't call my hypothetical comments about Swedes as racist. Prejudiced, stupid or ignorant perhaps, but not racist. Besides' I'm part Swedish myself. ;)

[OTA]

Wow, Alonso comented the issue and still the knifes are not out!!! Surprizing if you ask me.
I think his answer was straight and honest, pretty much in line with his style.

Cheers
David

[Daniel]

I bet you wouldn't those same things to complete stranger. It's about context as has been said before. I don't expect the people who blacked up or shouted at Hamilton to be his mates who were there to have fun with him.

Of course. But in this day and age we have a thing call celebrity and for some reason everyone thinks they know everyone famous which is why people read stupid magazines to see who's humping who or who's having relationship difficulties or who has had boob work or something. In this day and age people for some reason think that because they know someone off the TV that they know someone.


I don't think nationalities to be homogenous enough to be called a race, so no, I wouldn't call my hypothetical comments about Swedes as racist. Prejudiced, stupid or ignorant perhaps, but not racist. Besides' I'm part Swedish myself. ;)

What makes racism worse than discriminating against someone on the basis of their nationality? At the end of the day we're all the same aside from our slight racial differences in appearance so why not celebrate these differences with a bit of a joke (within limits of course) and make people who are truly racist either realise that they're wrong or just make them look as stupid as they really are. At the end of the day we're all different. Why not promote these differences and highlight the fact that even though I have brown hair and brown eyes and you have blonde hair and blue eyes we're pretty much the same. Some people celebrate race and nationality with festivals and some do it with humour. I see all of this as OK unless you start being negative about it. The thing is when you make an issue of this people see it as something wrong or forbidden and some people go for that sort of thing sadly.

[OTA]

There is not much difference between racism and xenofobia, thus while making fun at Swedes canot be considered racism it can be considered xenofobia. But of course, I would cosidered neither of them.

I beleive that a sense of humour is a vital part of our life. People with good sense of humor are generaly sensible enough to understand what's a good laugh and what's an insult.

Cheers
David

[redson]

They are making fun of Hamilton by parodising his physical features, not making fun of the fact that black people used to be slaves.

You made that link between "blacking up" and connotations of slavery in your head and it is not supported by any evidence at all.

They were making fun that even Hamilton's family support Alonso. The message on the T shirt chest said Hamilton family and on the back said Alonso # 1. They painted themselves black because Hamilton's family is black , aren't they?. It was a stupid joke that has blown out of proportion, I'm so tired of it...

[janneppi]

The thing is when you make an issue of this people see it as something wrong or forbidden and some people go for that sort of thing sadly.
If this incident can make some people actually think how they view the world and see something wrong in their own behavior then this has been worth it IMO, regardless of how many papers have been sold exploiting the issue.

You can't stop the negative effects of this, but you sure as hell can hope it has some positives too.

[Daniel]

If this incident can make some people actually think how they view the world and see something wrong in their own behavior then this has been worth it IMO, regardless of how many papers have been sold exploiting the issue.

You can't stop the negative effects of this, but you sure as hell can hope it has some positives too.

Hopefully :) I just don't see the worth in seeing things which may or may not be there or choosing the interpret these things how we want to. At the end of the day you can either choose to think people are racist based on what you see in the media or listen to the person and either agree or disagree that they meant to offend or not :)

[ioan]

I don't ever recall people with bushy eyebrows being treated as slaves way back when, but I think you'll find blacks were.

Slavery, no matter what anyone tells you, is not a good thing, and clearly, the social stigma of a RACE that was treated so poorly by the white man is a hard one to be free of.

And so the vicious circle goes on, and on, and on.............

There were also white slaves, and so on, not only black ones, so give me a break with this kind of arguments.

[OTA]

Indeed there were white slaves, may be not too many in the last 500 years, but slavery existed in every civilization. In fact, it's very true that spain paid an important role in slavery trade, but it's also true that the people of the Iberian peninsula were traded as slaves in different times of history.

Cheers
David

[Daniel]

There were also white slaves, and so on, not only black ones, so give me a break with this kind of arguments.
Quite what slavery even has to this I don't know :mark:

[BDunnell]

There is. It's just a physical feature that they're parodising.

I simply cannot see how taking the piss out of someone's eyebrows and being disparaging towards someone's race, which is rather more fundamental, can be likened to one another, I'm afraid.

[BDunnell]

If this incident can make some people actually think how they view the world and see something wrong in their own behavior then this has been worth it IMO, regardless of how many papers have been sold exploiting the issue.

You can't stop the negative effects of this, but you sure as hell can hope it has some positives too.

:up:

[BDunnell]

There is not much difference between racism and xenofobia, thus while making fun at Swedes canot be considered racism it can be considered xenofobia. But of course, I would cosidered neither of them.

I beleive that a sense of humour is a vital part of our life. People with good sense of humor are generaly sensible enough to understand what's a good laugh and what's an insult.


Indeed they are, and I don't consider the behaviour of those 'fans' to have been funny. There are amusing jokes to be had about race and ethnicity issues, of course, but this wasn't one of them.

[Daniel]

I simply cannot see how taking the piss out of someone's eyebrows and being disparaging towards someone's race, which is rather more fundamental, can be likened to one another, I'm afraid.
What if Hamilton gets his skin colour from his racial background and Fernando gets his monobrow from his racial background also?

[BDunnell]

What if Hamilton gets his skin colour from his racial background and Fernando gets his monobrow from his racial background also?

Because skin colour is generally regarded as the worse of the two things about which to make disparaging comments.

[Daniel]

Because skin colour is generally regarded as the worse of the two things about which to make disparaging comments.
Why is skin a more sensitive issue than the size of someone's nose, whether they have a Mongolian eye fold, a detached ear lobe and so on.

When you regard one racial thing as more serious than another I think it just promotes division in society upon those grounds. People will never integrate when you keep on whispering in hushed tones or in not so hushed tones "Don't mention anything about Fred over there his skin's black so don't say anything about it because that's racism y'know but that guy over there has a big nose so feel to make light of the fact that he's Jewish and that guy has a monobrow so feel free to make fun of him because he's Southern European so it doesn't count as racism"

I think it was best said in Full Metal Jacket with this.

I am hard, but I am fair! There is no racial bigotry here! I do not look down on niggers, kikes, whops or greasers! Here you are ALL equally worthless!

[BDunnell]

Why is skin a more sensitive issue than the size of someone's nose, whether they have a Mongolian eye fold, a detached ear lobe and so on.

When you regard one racial thing as more serious than another I think it just promotes division in society upon those grounds. People will never integrate when you keep on whispering in hushed tones or in not so hushed tones "Don't mention anything about Fred over there his skin's black so don't say anything about it because that's racism y'know but that guy over there has a big nose so feel to make light of the fact that he's Jewish and that guy has a monobrow so feel free to make fun of him because he's Southern European so it doesn't count as racism"

Fair point. I still think some insults are worse than others, though, no matter whether they are racial insults or not.

I would also still be intrigued to discover what some people here think racism actually is, what constitutes a racist insult, and when it becomes unacceptable.

[fandango]

I think people (especially English people) are rightfully very proud of Lewis Hamilton. Racism would be when/if someone who would otherwise support him doesn't do so because of his skin colour, and whatever actions they take to express this.

[Daniel]

Fair point. I still think some insults are worse than others, though, no matter whether they are racial insults or not.

Well some idiot on Youtube called me a "stubborn british piece of ****" today. I think that would be racism. If I was British :cheese:

I don't know. I think they're all as bad. As soon as you single someone out for negative treatment on the basis of race I think you've overstepped the line. I had a chat to an Indian friend from Australia and mentioned this thread and asked if she would be offended if someone blacked up and pretended to be Indian as long as they weren't negative towards Indians and they said "No". We used to have a guy who used to black up in Australia and pretended to be a guy called Mahatma Coat and he was quite funny and Indians loved him too. Sadly he got canned because of racial sensitivities.

To a certain extent do we not all discriminate on the basis of race or nationality and race? :) We are all conditioned to act in a certain way towards people of a certain race, nationality, sex, skin colour and so on by the experiences we have when interacting with people, what we see in the media and what other people tell us.

[Daniel]

I think people (especially English people) are rightfully very proud of Lewis Hamilton. Racism would be when/if someone who would otherwise support him doesn't do so because of his skin colour, and whatever actions they take to express this.

Perhaps. But is it not also someone's right not to support someone because they don't want to based on whatever discriminating factors they feel right? But you're right I think it's purely down to what actions they take to express this as to whether it's racial abuse or not.

Just playing the devils advocate on that point I should make it clear!

[BDunnell]

I think people (especially English people) are rightfully very proud of Lewis Hamilton. Racism would be when/if someone who would otherwise support him doesn't do so because of his skin colour, and whatever actions they take to express this.

Is it not possible to be racist towards Lewis Hamilton outside those criteria? I don't feel that whether or not one would otherwise support him has very much to do with it.

[BDunnell]

As soon as you single someone out for negative treatment on the basis of race I think you've overstepped the line.

I agree. I think that the actions of those people in Barcelona were an example of negative treatment on the basis of race, because those particular insults would have been meaningless if addressed to anyone who wasn't black.


I had a chat to an Indian friend from Australia and mentioned this thread and asked if she would be offended if someone blacked up and pretended to be Indian as long as they weren't negative towards Indians and they said "No".

Yes, and there are plenty of black people who say they don't mind being called niggers, but you wouldn't find me using the word because I think we can do better than that.



To a certain extent do we not all discriminate on the basis of race or nationality and race? :) We are all conditioned to act in a certain way towards people of a certain race, nationality, sex, skin colour and so on by the experiences we have when interacting with people, what we see in the media and what other people tell us.

Yes, we do, to some extent. However, we don't all act in the same way on the basis of those prejudices.

[fandango]

Perhaps. But is it not also someone's right not to support someone because they don't want to based on whatever discriminating factors they feel right? But you're right I think it's purely down to what actions they take to express this as to whether it's racial abuse or not.

Just playing the devils advocate on that point I should make it clear!

I think you misunderstood me, because I don't think it's purely down to the person's actions. It's what moves them to do it that counts. So no, I don't think it's okay to judge based on whatever discriminating factors you want. Some of those factors are prejudiced.

And I agree that we all have our own prejudices. I have to admit that while I admire Hamilton as a driver, his "Englishness" in interviews gets up my nose a bit. This is my problem, my limitation, not his, and I certainly wouldn't let it get in the way if I were ever lucky enough to meet him. And for me, the Alonso fans who took advantage of Lewis' good nature to make finger signs behind his head are worse than the others, because they lack basic respect for another person, but it's their loss in the end and I'm sure Hamilton wouldn't care.

[BDunnell]

IAnd for me, the Alonso fans who took advantage of Lewis' good nature to make finger signs behind his head are worse than the others, because they lack basic respect for another person, but it's their loss in the end and I'm sure Hamilton wouldn't care.

I agree that that too was unduly rude, but I think that the idiots in the crowd were worse, because I believe that the nature of their insult was worse than giving him the finger.

[fandango]

Is it not possible to be racist towards Lewis Hamilton outside those criteria? I don't feel that whether or not one would otherwise support him has very much to do with it.

Yes, I suppose it is possible. Perhaps, on a broader perspective, respect is a better verb to use here than support. I only used that as a hypothetical example, so if you single someone out negatively because of their race that would be also racist.

[fandango]

I agree that that too was unduly rude, but I think that the idiots in the crowd were worse, because I believe that the nature of their insult was worse than giving him the finger.


If I didn't live here then I imagine I would have had exactly the same opinion as you.

But what I meant about the finger signs was that people were asking to pose with Hamilton for a photo, and then making signs behind his head to their mates for the photo. I think it's wrong (although not exactly a war crime) to take advantage of someone's goodwill like that.

[BDunnell]

Yes, I suppose it is possible. Perhaps, on a broader perspective, respect is a better verb to use here than support. I only used that as a hypothetical example, so if you single someone out negatively because of their race that would be also racist.

Ah, I see.

[BDunnell]

Well some idiot on Youtube called me a "stubborn british piece of ****" today. I think that would be racism. If I was British :cheese:

I think you must have been at fault there. You should have included in your remarks some form of phrase or description stereotypical to your nationality. I was thinking as much just now while walking up the 'apples and pears' and doffing my bowler hat to passers-by.

[Daniel]

I think you must have been at fault there. You should have included in your remarks some form of phrase or description stereotypical to your nationality. I was thinking as much just now while walking up the 'apples and pears' and doffing my bowler hat to passers-by.

You can see what country someone is from on youtube btw :)

[Daniel]

Yes, and there are plenty of black people who say they don't mind being called niggers, but you wouldn't find me using the word because I think we can do better than that.

Yes, we do, to some extent. However, we don't all act in the same way on the basis of those prejudices.

Of course. But to call your friend a nigger is to a certain extent a term of endearment? I myself cringe when someone calls me dear or love. I don't see what gives people the right to be like that with someone they don't even know :mark: But that's a different kettle of fish :)

Couldn't agree more with the last bit.

[Tazio]

McLaren apologized Thursday for comments he made earlier this week about the visa problems

http://www.krem.com/sharedcontent/northwest/sports/mariners/stories/NW_022208SMB_mclaren_apologizes_JG.19557825.html

[SGWilko]

McLaren apologized Thursday for comments he made earlier this week about the visa problems

http://www.krem.com/sharedcontent/northwest/sports/mariners/stories/NW_022208SMB_mclaren_apologizes_JG.19557825.html

I think Ron is still upset that some young parents keep leaving pushchairs on his doorstep for repair..............

[ASCAR24/7/365.5]

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/160134-0/alonso:_lewis_prompted_abuse_with_remarks.html

Ive now lost all respect for the spantard. hes now saying the reason lewis got rasist comments at barcelona is because he came out and said he thought the way alonso handled himself was not fitting of a champion. and alonso is basically saying that hamilton deserved the rasism

[ShiftingGears]

They weren't racist, I thought that was the conclusion from the topic about it. I don't see anything unjust about Alonso's comments at all.

[ASCAR24/7/365.5]

no thats not what i meant, if you read what alonso sis saying, hes basicaly saying its hamiltons fault that he is having people being rasist against him, because hamilton commented on alonsos un sportsman like behaviour.

[wmcot]

The article is using a bit of journalistic license in suggesting that FA thought the actions were justified. I'm not a big FA fan, but in his defense, he only talks about the whistles and jeers from the crowd, not the "racism". The article tries to link the two together as if he had said it, but that fact is not in any of his quotes.

Another slow news day, apparently...

[Ranger]

no thats not what i meant, if you read what alonso sis saying, hes basicaly saying its hamiltons fault that he is having people being rasist against him, because hamilton commented on alonsos un sportsman like behaviour.

If Hamilton was in a Super Aguri, anonymously struggling to get points every race, would he have copped the same abuse? Of course not.

It is because of his feud with Alonso and his provocative comments that he received the brunt of a few people hurling abuse at him. That is what Alonso is saying.

I think this old chestnut should get merged with the other thread.

[Ranger]

The article is using a bit of journalistic license in suggesting that FA thought the actions were justified. I'm not a big FA fan, but in his defense, he only talks about the whistles and jeers from the crowd, not the "racism". The article tries to link the two together as if he had said it, but that fact is not in any of his quotes.

Another slow news day, apparently...

Now this I agree with. :up:

[SGWilko]

Another slow news day, apparently...

Well, you know what they say...... "slow news is good news" ;)

[leopard]

Not sure, I do quick packing in the morning. :)

[OTA]

Really pathetic. The way it hs been twisted FA words is really pathetic.
Cheers
David

[Daniel]

Not sure, I do quick packing in the morning. :)

Can someone translate? :mark:

[leopard]

Can someone translate? :mark:
You might not have activity in the morning, so you don't need to pack your travel kit, document etc.

[Daniel]

What does that have to do with this thread?

[pino]

Time to close this, and time to concentrate us on racing only, thanks to everyone :)