The future of Super Aguri [Archive]

Nikki Katz

29th January 2008, 20:01

I can't say that I'm entirely surprised by this despite Honda's assurances before, I think that Max for once is being quite perceptive.
I really hope that I'm wrong but surely under the current rules the whole concept of the team will become illegal in a couple of years anyway, which is hardly going to help them find sponsors for this year. In addition, now that Nakajima's on the grid, there's less need for Sato. Which is a shame really as I'm not convinced that Nakajima's as good yet, he's still something of an unknown and was fairly unpredictable in GP2.
I think that Max is right with the budget caps, and perhaps if they're strong enough then this will reverse out in a few years and we'll have 11 or even 12 teams. But it sounds like it's a little late for Super Aguri, and I would have thought that long term Toro Rosso might struggle too.

woody2goody

29th January 2008, 22:02

Won't Honda be able to bail them out?

Stuartf12007

29th January 2008, 22:11

definetly ripe for a take over.

wmcot

30th January 2008, 07:36

definetly ripe for a take over.

Team "Force Pakistan" anyone???

leopard

30th January 2008, 09:52

Team "Force Pakistan" anyone???

Maybe someday Fly Emirates or Mubadala - Abu Dhabi would run their own team. ;)

jens

30th January 2008, 13:51

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64908

Wow. May we see even two Indian teams on the grid? :s hock:

Nikki Katz

30th January 2008, 19:06

But I heard that Honda were putting Aguri under pressure to field a good lineup, i.e. the same one as last year, and that they didn't consider Karthikeyan a good enough driver. Investment from this company might be counter-productive if it means reduced Honda support.

CNR

30th January 2008, 21:51

http://racing.indiatimes.com/Spice_Energy_wants_Narain_in_F1_team/articleshow/2744339.cms

i like this bit

if the deal works out Spice would end up shelling out $66 million plus (one full dollar as token amount).

cy bais

30th January 2008, 22:48

If it becomes reality, then they'd need the services of the Spice Girls (lame I know but I couldn't resist).

:)

wmcot

31st January 2008, 01:14

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64908

Wow. May we see even two Indian teams on the grid? :s hock:

You could change the name to team "Super-a-Curry!" ;)

Valve Bounce

31st January 2008, 03:03

You could change the name to team "Super-a-Curry!" ;) ...............or Team Teri Maki. There is a very strong rumour that the team's patron will be none other than India's greatest Spin Bowler Harbhajan Singh. The BCCI and NAASA have offered to inject huge funds as co-sponsors if Max will agree to giving a Super Licence to an Ape specially trained for their space program. Lewis Hamilton is extremely supportive of this as he feels he has already been racing against monkeys at the back of the field last year.

So far, attempts to contact the BCCI for confirmation has been met with much stonewalling. NAASA have referred all enquiries to the CIA.

woody2goody

31st January 2008, 17:13

You could change the name to team "Super-a-Curry!" ;)

He he he...

AJP

1st February 2008, 06:56

I hope Super Aguri can find the funds to continue...
They raced well last season on a tight budget...
I really like the Super Aguri team.

ArrowsFA1

12th February 2008, 12:17

Super Aguri have postponed the official launch of their 2008 car while they continue to work on finalising sponsors and drivers for the new season.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65095

jso1985

12th February 2008, 20:24

Good to see they're are still decided to race despite the problems, but it's gonna be a really hard year for them, Force India and Toro Rosso have improved(at least on testing) while Super Aguri doesn't even have a car...

Malbec

12th February 2008, 22:53

SAF1 will be having the new Honda RA 108 at some point during the season.

Problem is that while Honda is willing to build them cars and do some development for them they aren't willing to give them the cash to race, thats for sponsors to do.

Sponsors don't want to be with a team that has only two seasons worth of racing left in it.

Nakajima's entry won't affect Sato at all. Nakajima is a Toyota driver, Sato is Honda through and through. Honda won't change anything just because Nakajima is in.

ArrowsFA1

18th February 2008, 16:08

Oh dear, this is not looking good :dozey:

The Super Aguri Formula One team have announced they will miss this week's test at Barcelona due to circumstances beyond their control.
The Japanese squad had originally planned to unveil their new car at the Spanish circuit tomorrow, but those plans were delayed and replaced with a press interview with team principal Aguri Suzuki and technical director Mark Preston during a normal testing day with their hybrid car.
However, the team said on Monday that they will be absent from the Barcelona test, but will return to action next week with two cars.
"Super Aguri F1 Team will not be participating at the test in Barcelona this week due to circumstances beyond our control," said the team in a statement.
"We are planning to attend the test at the Circuit de Catalunya next week with two cars. We would like to apologise to our colleagues in the media who had made arrangements to attend our Q&A tomorrow."
The team have faced an uncertain few weeks due to financial difficulties curtailing their pre-season programme.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65196

Garry Walker

18th February 2008, 22:47

Oh dear, this is not looking good :dozey:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65196

Seems the only option is dumping Davidson :cool:

ArrowsFA1

21st February 2008, 12:49

Aguri Suzuki has flown to Japan for talks with senior Honda executives as he bids to secure the future of his Formula One team, autosport.com has learned.
Super Aguri have faced a difficult winter, with financial problems forcing them to curtail their testing programme. The team were forced to pull out of this week's Barcelona test at the last minute because of their current situation.
The team's continued absence from testing has prompted speculation that they may not make it to the season-opener in Australia, and it is understood that the talks taking place in Tokyo over the next 24 hours are now key to deciding their future.
Sources have revealed that between three and four investment deals are on the table for Suzuki to consider - ranging from a takeover of equity to more straightforward team sponsorship.
Aguri is believed to be weighing up the options but needs to finalise how much support he can rely on from Honda, who have helped fund the team since they entered F1 in 2006.
Honda chiefs are believed to be keen for Super Aguri to become a self-funding enterprise, especially as in the next few years the team will have to begin becoming an outright constructor.
The team are currently awaiting news from Japan about what Suzuki's plans for the future are, with personnel on standby to head to Barcelona to resume testing next week.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65243

Nikki Katz

22nd February 2008, 19:43

Hmmm, I don't think that this is looking very good. At least there are some sort of negotiations going on, but I can only imagine that because of the length of time this is taking (let's face it, if this falls through then they're not going to turn up at Australia) that Suzuki's been offered a tiny amount to buy out his team.

Did Pedro Diniz once offer $1 to buy out Prost, or did I imagine that?

Schnell

22nd February 2008, 22:02

http://racing.indiatimes.com/Spice_Energy_wants_Narain_in_F1_team/articleshow/2744339.cms

i like this bit

What's there to like?
An Indian writer, writing in the Indian Times about an Indian Driver, who refers to unidentified "Experts" being "Perplexed!" If they are "Experts" they shouldn't be 'perplexed'! Nick Fry's statement refers to "Consistant Engineering Feedback" with due respect to NK, is he working with F1 engineers on a regular basis as AD is behind the scenes? If so that's fine, but it isn't with Honda so he can't be as 'consistant' with knowledge of the current equipment and engineering work! I'm neither an 'Expert' nor 'perplexed' ;-)

tsarcasm

25th February 2008, 19:59

it's not looking good, Aguri is out of money and can't race. No Prodrive either...

Valve Bounce

25th February 2008, 23:19

it's not looking good, Aguri is out of money and can't race. No Prodrive either...

[LINK PLEASE!!

woody2goody

25th February 2008, 23:23

Link or no link it's still a shame even if they can race. They won't be competitive with that crappy car from Honda and it's awful for them. And the drivers deserve better than to be trundling around at the back. Super Aguri could do nothing about recieving a car that was bad then and even worse in comparison now.

Valve Bounce

26th February 2008, 02:18

tsarcasm

26th February 2008, 06:20

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/2/7389.html

http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3213_3193644,00.html

they are not dead, yet but the writings on the wall unless CASH is delivered....

too bad, really I liked the 'little team that could'

jso1985

27th February 2008, 03:55

I won't be sad if they have to withdraw, I don't like "B" teams pretending to be serious teams, they can go and Toro Rosso also and give room for true teams

jens

27th February 2008, 13:40

I won't be sad if they have to withdraw, I don't like "B" teams pretending to be serious teams, they can go and Toro Rosso also and give room for true teams

But there is one problem. There aren't any "true" teams about to join F1... And 18 cars is too few IMO.

AJP

27th February 2008, 21:38

I won't be sad if they have to withdraw, I don't like "B" teams pretending to be serious teams, they can go and Toro Rosso also and give room for true teams

how about being sad for all those employed at super aguri possibly losing their jobs ...

this sucks ...

Valve Bounce

28th February 2008, 02:18

I won't be sad if they have to withdraw, I don't like "B" teams pretending to be serious teams, they can go and Toro Rosso also and give room for true teams

I think we have discussed this particular point many times here. If it were not for the so called "B" teams, one of the factory teams would be coming dead last. The likelihood of any team, coming last consistantly, remaining in F1 would be remote as the company cannot withstanding such negative publicity. Without the "B" teams, we would only have 8 teams if we count Spyker/Team India or whatever it will be called, and I really see little chance of anyone forking out the huge amounts of money to start an F1 team from scratch only to come last for the first two or three years. Where would sponsors for an unsuccessful team come from?

jso1985

1st March 2008, 05:20

you're right I know but I just don't like the idea that we have 2 teams that are not racing to win the championship even if they could

philipbain

1st March 2008, 18:59

Lets face it, the Super Aguri Team was only thrown together to enable Honda to appease Japanese Takuma Sato fans who were threatening to boycott Honda's products after he was dropped from the works Honda team in favour of Rubens Barrichello (one of the more puzzling decisions of recent times, not replacing Sato but the choice of a well past his sell-by date Barrichello). Now Honda are looking to bail on thier commitments to bail out thier works team that have proven over the past season (and may continue to do this season if testing form is anything to go on) that they just arent up to the job, Honda in Japan having ruined the technical setup by getting rid of Geoff Willis and installing a Japanese Motorbike mechanic in his place.

Garry Walker

2nd March 2008, 14:30

wmcot

3rd March 2008, 07:12

Where would sponsors for an unsuccessful team come from?

Possibly:

1. Enron
2. Any reality or court TV show
3. Al Gore
4. Donald Trump's "Apprentice"
5. Marca
6. The Bild
7. The National Enquirer

You can find a lot of losers out there who might be talked out of their money...

PSfan

4th March 2008, 22:25

This old news yet?:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Super Aguri gets new investors

According to the German publication Auto Motor und Sport, a trio of investors have been brought together to bring the Formula One team back from the brink of financial ruin.

The magazine says an unnamed British company alongwith a Middle Eastern sponsor and some German investors have purchased a stake in the Honda-backed team. Under terms of the deal,

http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/Formula_One/news_story/?ID=231200&hubname=auto_racing-formula_one
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Article also states that Sato and Davidson will be back... didn't wanna copy and paste the whole thing :p :

ioan

4th March 2008, 23:23

Finally some good news for them, and for us! ;)

Valve Bounce

5th March 2008, 03:05

Finally some good news for them, and for us! ;)

Let's hope so.

wmcot

5th March 2008, 07:38

The way this is dragging on is making Super Aguri the soap opera of F1 - Hey! Let's call them Soaper Aguri! :)

AJP

5th March 2008, 08:09

I wish all the very best for Super Aguri...
If I had some serious coin floating around...I'd be there to help them out with bells on..

CNR

5th March 2008, 08:33

http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/news_story/?ID=231200&hubname=auto_racing

?

I wonder if this new 'investor' is Dave Richards? ...

Bagwan

5th March 2008, 17:09

http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/news_story/?ID=231200&hubname=auto_racing

?

I wonder if this new 'investor' is Dave Richards? ...

You could be right .
Ties to the middle east may have come through the ties with Mercedes , and a German investor may have also been in line with the 2nd Merc team .

He was let go by Honda , who had been forced by the Sato situation , to field the second team , and this would fit that aspect as well , as , if there was someone they would like to drop it on , it would seem Dave is the likeliest candidate .

Valve Bounce

5th March 2008, 22:55

You could be right .
Ties to the middle east may have come through the ties with Mercedes , and a German investor may have also been in line with the 2nd Merc team .

He was let go by Honda , who had been forced by the Sato situation , to field the second team , and this would fit that aspect as well , as , if there was someone they would like to drop it on , it would seem Dave is the likeliest candidate .

The ties with Mercedes baffle me as this is a Honda B team, and Honda was still calling the shots last I heard. I reckon they should get someone like Sony or Panasonic to buy the team.

CNR

6th March 2008, 07:36

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20066.html

Magma and Super Aguri

http://cdn5.tribalfusion.com/media/37536.gif (http://a.tribalfusion.com/h.click/a1mxQ03AjGpF3ZbXcM0XGv40VBnnTfQ5FY2WU7GWAvTPTnRQVZ bsStZbv1dBsW6Qw2VB1XU3LT6im2PUeQ6nK2tQMXWvZamWeo5P BT4VraUc3jWVMjRmUwWWUWTFZb13F2DmNRjAZa/http://a.tribalfusion.com)
There are indications that the London-based Magma Group, headed by former Ford and Maserati executive Martin Leach, may be the bidder to save the Super Aguri F1 team.
Leach started out wanting to be a racing driver, racing karts as a teenager and moved on to Formula Ford 2000 before ending his career because of problems with rheumatoid arthritis. Leach turned to an engineering career at the Ford Motor Company, becoming head of product development at Mazda and then the chief executive of Ford Europe. In that role he was closely involved with providing the Jordan F1 team with official Ford-branded engines in 2003 and 2004, supporting Ford's push at the time with Jaguar Racing.
Leach then departed Ford and was hired by Fiat boss Giuseppe Morchio to be head of both Ferrari/Maserati. Ferrari chairman Luca Montezemolo opposed the move and won a power struggle with Morchio, which resulted in Jean Todt being put in charge of the whole Ferrari company and Leach heading Maserati until it was moved under Alfa Romeo control in 2005. Leach then set up the Magma Group, an automotive consultancy group. This led to him being appointed to the board of Russia's GAZ International, an automotive company based in Nizhny Novgorod. Controlled by aluminium tycoon Oleg Deripaska, a close ally of Russian President Vladimir Putin, GAZ acquired LDV, formerly known as Leyland DAF Vans, and bought the Chrysler Sebring/Dodge Stratus production line from Chrysler's Sterling Heights assembly plant and announced that it will produce a car called the GAZ Siber and vans under the Maxus brand.
Magma then acquired Menard Engineering Limited, the rebranded TWR Group, which included the automotive design facility in Woking and the former Arrows F1 headquarters at Leafield, where Super Aguri is based.

leopard

6th March 2008, 08:36

Originally Posted by View Post
Magma and Super Aguri

There are indications that the London-based Magma Group, headed by former Ford and Maserati executive Martin Leach, may be the bidder to save the Super Aguri F1 team.
Leach started out wanting to be a racing driver, racing karts as a teenager and moved on to Formula Ford 2000 before ending his career because of problems with rheumatoid arthritis. Leach turned to an engineering career at the Ford Motor Company, becoming head of product development at Mazda and then the chief executive of Ford Europe. In that role he was closely involved with providing the Jordan F1 team with official Ford-branded engines in 2003 and 2004, supporting Ford's push at the time with Jaguar Racing.
Leach then departed Ford and was hired by Fiat boss Giuseppe Morchio to be head of both Ferrari/Maserati. Ferrari chairman Luca Montezemolo opposed the move and won a power struggle with Morchio, which resulted in Jean Todt being put in charge of the whole Ferrari company and Leach heading Maserati until it was moved under Alfa Romeo control in 2005. Leach then set up the Magma Group, an automotive consultancy group. This led to him being appointed to the board of Russia's GAZ International, an automotive company based in Nizhny Novgorod. Controlled by aluminium tycoon Oleg Deripaska, a close ally of Russian President Vladimir Putin, GAZ acquired LDV, formerly known as Leyland DAF Vans, and bought the Chrysler Sebring/Dodge Stratus production line from Chrysler's Sterling Heights assembly plant and announced that it will produce a car called the GAZ Siber and vans under the Maxus brand.
Magma then acquired Menard Engineering Limited, the rebranded TWR Group, which included the automotive design facility in Woking and the former Arrows F1 headquarters at Leafield, where Super Aguri is based.[/URL]

His career in automotive world were very impressive. This could be an initial well for Super Aguri Future, unless if he insists to drive a race car himself. :D

SGWilko

6th March 2008, 14:32

The ties with Mercedes baffle me as this is a Honda B team, and Honda was still calling the shots last I heard. I reckon they should get someone like Sony or Panasonic to buy the team.

The rumour goes that My Earth Dream came about because of Honda's inability to secure Sanyo as title sponsor.

Panasonic are Toyota through and through. Sony, I really don't think F1 is their bag TBH.

But, the link with Richards makes sense. He's done good stuff for Honda in the past, and is in the market for entering F1. But, with the customer chassis still a thorny issue, I expect him to stay at arms length.

ArrowsFA1

10th March 2008, 11:13

Finally it looks like the future of the team has been secured:

The Super Aguri team have announced they have reached a deal with the Magma Group regarding the acquisition of the Formula One squad.
Super Aguri also said Magma had also reached an agreement with Honda for technical cooperation and an engine supply to the team.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65597

Valve Bounce

10th March 2008, 11:53

It is great to know that the team will keep their two drivers. Ant is wanted by Team Honda to supply feedback when testing the car later this year which will be same as Team Honda's car. This way, Honda will have two GP racing test drivers as well as their own.

Nikki Katz

10th March 2008, 19:15

I think it's great that they're still about, hope that it lasts. Also great that Davidson's still about. Personally I still feel that Honda are lining him up for an '09 seat at their A-team.

JSH

10th March 2008, 21:33

Is "Magma Group" another venture capital firm like Cerberus(who own Chrysler)?

If yes, it will be VERY interesting to see how this works out.

CNR

11th March 2008, 21:31

Japan's Super Aguri F1 team agrees to takeover by Magma Group
http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5grRTxUY2H2kMlL_ASK_ymJXqxyTA

TOKYO — Japan's Super Aguri Formula One racing team has agreed to a takeover by a U.K.-based auto industry consultant and solutions company, the team announced Monday.
London-based Magma Group has also reached an agreement with Honda Motor Co. for the Japanese automaker to continue providing engines and technical support to the team, Super Aguri said in a statement.

DazzlaF1

11th March 2008, 21:38

I think it's great that they're still about, hope that it lasts. Also great that Davidson's still about. Personally I still feel that Honda are lining him up for an '09 seat at their A-team.

Aye, great to see they've got themselves sorted out, hopefully they've got themselves enough funds now to do some serious testing

Valve Bounce

12th March 2008, 02:47

THis was something that I had refrained from commenting about because I just hoped that ant wouldn't be shoved aside to make way for Narain.

I have always suspected that Honda wanted ant to remain as a test driver in their team, but realised/felt that ant was looking for a race seat, so they gave him the opportunity to race for Super Aguri last year. Frank had wanted ant to be a test driver for Williams also, but that's another story

Super Aguri, as we all know, was cobbled together to enable Taku to continue racing in F1 to appease his many Japanese fans; there would have been a helluva backlash against Honda if they hadn't, with demonstrations and the ensuing loss of sales.

I also suspect that if Supr Aguri manage to have the same cars as Team Honda, then any feedback would be forwarded to the Honda drivers during testing, practice or even races. The one thing that disappointed me last year was when the Aguri drivers were doing better than Team Honda, Honda denied Aguri the faster rear wing that Aguri had tested (at Barcelona, I think).

Now back to the drivers: If anyone is going to get a vacant seat at Honda next year, I feel it will be Taku unless ant out-performs him by a huge margin this year - again to appease his legion of Japanese fans.

wmcot

12th March 2008, 06:18

So with the buyout will there be a name change? I haven't read anything either way on that.

ArrowsFA1

16th April 2008, 13:00

Super Aguri face a race against time to make next weekend's Spanish Grand Prix after the investment group buying the team chose to reconsider their options at the very last minute.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66667

ioan

16th April 2008, 13:22

I wonder why Bernie isn't buying into this small team?
It wouldn't cost him an arm, and let's face it, he has a lot more money than needed for this.
he's been milking F1 for decades, it's time to give something back.

Valve Bounce

16th April 2008, 15:20

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66667

I wish I hadn't logged onto the F1 forum and seen this :(

I was having a lot more fun in the Olympic Torch thread at Chit Chat. :)

Ranger

16th April 2008, 15:27

16th April 2008, 15:37

I can tell you good people that Kevin Kalkhoven and Paul Stoddart are interested in purchasing Super Happy Friends, with Kalkhovens financing it and Stoddart managing them. ;) ;)

ArrowsFA1

16th April 2008, 16:45

Aguri Suzuki is considering the future of his team after confirming that the investment group intent on buying the outfit withdrew its offer on Wednesday.

Magma, working on behalf of Middle Eastern backers Dubai International Capital, informed Suzuki today that its investors 'no longer wish to fund the intended acquisition', once again throwing into doubt Super Aguri's continued participation in Formula One.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66672

truefan72

16th April 2008, 18:19

I can tell you good people that Kevin Kalkhoven and Paul Stoddart are interested in purchasing Super Happy Friends, with Kalkhovens financing it and Stoddart managing them. ;) ;)

Just sad news for everyone's second favorite team

I hope they work it out.

Hmm I'm not sure pault stoddartis the guy I would like to see back in F1.
But at least he knows the ropes.

Man if I had the money to finance it I would.

If I were them, I would do some sort of public financing thing where people were allowed to buy shares in the team with as little as $100-$1000 contributions.

That would really make them a public team, and increase attention at the same time

Nikki Katz

16th April 2008, 19:31

I hope that they pull through :(

maximilian

16th April 2008, 21:26

Wouldn't now be a great time for Hyundai or a Chinese auto maker who is trying to enter the international markets (perhaps one that is already in collaboration with Honda in some way) to dish out the cash and buy this team, and turn it into their very own factory effort? Hyundai has been rumored to want to enter F1 anyways. And for a Chinese maker, it would be a perfect public relations coup to make a splash in the overseas market and gather some name recognition.

It sure would blow chunks if the field has to be reduced to 20 in a year we expected to see 24. ;(

16th April 2008, 22:19

Just sad news for everyone's second favorite team

I hope they work it out.

Hmm I'm not sure pault stoddartis the guy I would like to see back in F1.
But at least he knows the ropes.

Man if I had the money to finance it I would.

If I were them, I would do some sort of public financing thing where people were allowed to buy shares in the team with as little as $100-$1000 contributions.

That would really make them a public team, and increase attention at the same time

My guess is that if this happened, They would use a modified version of 2006s or a brand new V8 made at the American plant with a Chassis made by Lola or something like that.

I'd love to see Stoddy back in F1, he was a great character.

I don't think a chinese company would buy in, seeing Toyota throw so much money in and getting hardly any rewards.

wmcot

16th April 2008, 22:23

Wouldn't now be a great time for Hyundai or a Chinese auto maker who is trying to enter the international markets

I doubt the FIA would allow a Chinese manufacturer due to the use of leaded paint on the car! ;)

ioan

16th April 2008, 22:24

I don't think a chinese company would buy in, seeing Toyota throw so much money in and getting hardly any rewards.

World wide exposure for 3 days every 2nd week, I wouldn't call that nothing!

PSfan

16th April 2008, 23:09

I can tell you good people that Kevin Kalkhoven and Paul Stoddart are interested in purchasing Super Happy Friends, with Kalkhovens financing it and Stoddart managing them. ;) ;)

My day just keeps getting worse and worse, first my window on my truck breaks, and I have to figure out how to jerry-rig it to stay closed, and now this little bit of news... Gives me even more reason to support Max at this time...

Stoddy wass a moron when he had Minardi, then was a contributing factor in the death of champcar (He probably insisted on having his 2 seaters run at champcar races which displaced a Program ford had in place, which of course led to Fords leaving...)

I credit KK for pulling the plug on champcar after feeling the heat of the bad press after releasing a bad U.S. tv package... But then again, perhaps thats the reaction he was hoping for when he came up with it in the first place... AN excuse to take TGs offer...

But it could be interesting to have a team in F1 that I hate more then the Macs, and Ferrari combined... Also makes sense from KK's perspective as he could resurrect the Cosworth engines... Also be interesting if Mosley does get replaced, how long it would take for Stoddart to piss off the new guy :p :

So if this happens, Who would bet against Will Power replacing Taku in this team, and Taku finding his way back into the Honda team?

CNR

17th April 2008, 00:39

So if this happens, Who would bet against Will Power replacing Taku in this team, and Taku finding his way back into the Honda team?
Not so sure

there is on driver that i would bet on and that is

ryan briscoe

but would like to see will there as well in Team Australia

BDunnell

17th April 2008, 00:51

Valve Bounce

17th April 2008, 02:42

One has to wonder why a big investment capital firm in the Middle East doesn't consider F1 to be a viable proposition, and what this means for other prospective sources of funding for the future. Leaving aside the prospects of global recession and the fact that Super Aguri aren't exactly front-running, could it be that a cold, hard look at the figures reveals that F1 isn't the best investment?

I've checked the entire page here, and nobody so far has twigged onto the fact that this resulted from the banning of customer cars coming into effect soon. This, in turn, has resulted in the value of Super Aguri and Torro Rosso to plummet dramatically, and the financiers from Dubai probably did due diligence and found this little hitch. Don't worry, Midlands/Stryker/Indian whatever will follow suit when they discover they will be bringing up the rear miles behind the rest of the field in each race.
I cannot, in all honesty, foresee any large company buying into F1 then having to design and build their own cars, and NO!! Lola isn't the answer after their last fiasco in F1. And no! it won't be FORD!!.
The tragedy is that this downward spiral will not end with these three teams; who will be tail end Charley next? Williams, Red Bull, Honda, Renault or Toyota? because that team will be the one to pull out.
This is a sad day for F1.

ShiftingGears

17th April 2008, 03:24

Stoddy wass a moron when he had Minardi, then was a contributing factor in the death of champcar (He probably insisted on having his 2 seaters run at champcar races which displaced a Program ford had in place, which of course led to Fords leaving...)
?

He wasnt a contributing factor at all. Champ Car management ran it into the ground due to incompetency, Stoddart or not.

markabilly

17th April 2008, 05:44

My .

I don't think a chinese company would buy in, seeing Toyota throw so much money in and getting hardly any rewards.

World wide exposure for 3 days every 2nd week, I wouldn't call that nothing!
Yep, world wide exposure, but there is good exposure and then there is :eek: :crazy: "exposure" :arrows: :grenade: , :bigcry:

NO, I am not talking about that.....

Talking about like Ford was amazed at the press that it received "for free" around the world when it jumped in.....and after a few years, well, being in the back of the pack (aka loser), ford decided this was an awful expensive ad that highlighted their engineering failures rather than successes....not much different than Toyota and Honda right now.......so who would want to toss the kind of money and take a chance it will look like Toyota or Ford by buying a team that does NOT never manufactured its own chassis when buying customer cars may be over ...........

Of course, there is mercedes ferrari, fiat, bmw......

ioan

17th April 2008, 09:59

Talking about like Ford was amazed at the press that it received "for free" around the world when it jumped in.....and after a few years, well, being in the back of the pack (aka loser), ford decided this was an awful expensive ad that highlighted their engineering failures rather than successes....not much different than Toyota and Honda right now.......so who would want to toss the kind of money and take a chance it will look like Toyota or Ford by buying a team that does NOT never manufactured its own chassis when buying customer cars may be over ...........

Ford wasn't that bad in their last F1 stint, they achieved a few podiums while fighting the mighty Ferraris, Williams and McLarens.

Valve Bounce

17th April 2008, 10:43

Ever see those cartoons of a guy with a billboard front and back, announcing"The End is Nigh".
What a bloody nightmare.

BDunnell

17th April 2008, 11:07

I've checked the entire page here, and nobody so far has twigged onto the fact that this resulted from the banning of customer cars coming into effect soon. This, in turn, has resulted in the value of Super Aguri and Torro Rosso to plummet dramatically, and the financiers from Dubai probably did due diligence and found this little hitch. Don't worry, Midlands/Stryker/Indian whatever will follow suit when they discover they will be bringing up the rear miles behind the rest of the field in each race.
I cannot, in all honesty, foresee any large company buying into F1 then having to design and build their own cars, and NO!! Lola isn't the answer after their last fiasco in F1. And no! it won't be FORD!!.
The tragedy is that this downward spiral will not end with these three teams; who will be tail end Charley next? Williams, Red Bull, Honda, Renault or Toyota? because that team will be the one to pull out.
This is a sad day for F1.

Very good points. No self-respecting manufacturer will want to put up with finishing last more often than not. Then, F1 may need those customer cars.

BDunnell

17th April 2008, 11:08

Ford wasn't that bad in their last F1 stint, they achieved a few podiums while fighting the mighty Ferraris, Williams and McLarens.

But Ford will have wanted to be on a genuine par with those teams, and they never were.

gloomyDAY

18th April 2008, 06:56

Just three more days.... (http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/162143-0/%27three_days%27_to_save_super_aguri.html)

I really want to see Super Aguri kick ass.
They've always played the role of the underdog.

Now if it were only possible for them to move up the grid.

Valve Bounce

18th April 2008, 07:40

PSfan

18th April 2008, 09:34

Not so sure

there is on driver that i would bet on and that is

ryan briscoe

but would like to see will there as well in Team Australia

Power is already racing for KK, Briscoe has probably been doing the ovals for to long to make a good transition back to real road racing, in real cars...

He wasnt a contributing factor at all. Champ Car management ran it into the ground due to incompetency, Stoddart or not.

Stoddart keeps Minardi USA and his two seaters out of Champcar, they would still have ford paying to put their name on the cars, and ford would be showcasing their new "mustang" racing series during champcar races this year, your not gonna convince me otherwise.

Ford wasn't that bad in their last F1 stint, they achieved a few podiums while fighting the mighty Ferraris, Williams and McLarens.

I'm inclined to believe that Ford (Jaguar) left F1 not because of their results on track, but more because Jaguar was a money loser, and was facing severe cutbacks/lay-offs, would have looked bad sending workers home, and still spend the money for F1... However I do believe that Ford was prepared to continue running in F1 if Redbull hadn't stepped up...

Just three more days.... (http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/162143-0/%27three_days%27_to_save_super_aguri.html)

I really want to see Super Aguri kick ass.
They've always played the role of the underdog.

Now if it were only possible for them to move up the grid.

Guess if no-one steps up within 3 days, then we might be in for a really gloomyDAY... sorry couldn't resist...

Doesn't look like Honda is gonna be saving them:

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080417202055.shtml

Honda on Thursday ruled out rescuing the financially embattled Super Aguri team.

"We intend to continue the present structure of our support for Super Aguri," the Honda spokesman told the French news agency AFP.

He also denied reports that said Super Aguri had requested a financial rescue package in light of the failed Magma deal.

ioan

18th April 2008, 10:26

BDunnell

18th April 2008, 12:50

I'm inclined to believe that Ford (Jaguar) left F1 not because of their results on track, but more because Jaguar was a money loser, and was facing severe cutbacks/lay-offs, would have looked bad sending workers home, and still spend the money for F1...

Very fair point. However, very few car manufacturers are prepared to be beaten over and over again in motorsport without ever winning or even having a chance of winning. Ferrari's amazing commitment to F1 through some very rough times indeed is a rare and honourable exception. Plenty have withdrawn from various forms of motorsport because of a lack of success. Often, of course, this lack of success is because they can't or won't spend as much as their rivals, so it is tied in with the factors you mention.

Tazio

18th April 2008, 14:30

If it were only possible for them to move onto the grid! :( Which begs a question! It apears likely they will run in Spain, as transports are already in route! I picked up this little snippet:

Since then Takuma Sato and Anthony Davidson have been running on limited mileage, and were told to protect the cars over GP weekends to save spares, which are in short supply.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66704

I know these two have more offs than any other team per race. Usually out by their lonesome! Is there a minimum of new tyres you need to start a race, or only a maximum that can be used during the course of. I'd hate to see a race gutted by SA bringing out a safety car because their 'stones give up!

ioan

18th April 2008, 20:45

Which begs a question! It apears likely they will run in Spain, as transports are already in route! I picked up this little snippet:

Since then Takuma Sato and Anthony Davidson have been running on limited mileage, and were told to protect the cars over GP weekends to save spares, which are in short supply.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66704

I know these two have more offs than any other team per race. Usually out by their lonesome! Is there a minimum of new tyres you need to start a race, or only a maximum that can be used during the course of. I'd hate to see a race gutted by SA bringing out a safety car because their 'stones give up!

I don't think they pay for the tires.

Tazio

18th April 2008, 21:20

'to protect the cars over GP weekends to save spares, which are in short supply."

I thought they meant spare tyres! :p : Thanks I'

aryan

19th April 2008, 10:19

Poor Anthony, the one time he gets a chance to drive in F1 is with a team who tells him to run slow as they don't have spare parts...

gloomyDAY

22nd April 2008, 17:30

Cars are on the way to Spain.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66763

xtlm

25th April 2008, 02:25

you know....i started watching F1 last year (outside of a few the previous year...and a few like 10 years ago when i was a kid)

the second (or third) race I saw was the Canada GP....one of the most exciting races I ever watched in any form of motorsport....and I fell for super aguri (outside of the previous week when they also scored points)

they became the reason I was glued to F1 (i remember once after sato crashed within the first few laps and saying "why bother watching now?! I know who is going to win basically")
its ashame they couldn't repeat that performance more times

I will be mad disappointed when they go, I thought them out performing honda and others was awesome

Valve Bounce

25th April 2008, 03:04

It's looking grim :(
This could be Black Friday for the team. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66808

I'll know when I come home from the "G" this evening.

leopard

25th April 2008, 04:50

The decision should be this morning, as the talk of the deal was taken in place last night.

truefan72

25th April 2008, 04:52

sad and troubeling.

Is there really no business/consortium out there that is willing to buy into Super Aguri. I think with the modest backing they had last year ( until Honda pulled the rug off their feet after being embarrased in Canada) they are capable of being competitive in the middle ranks.

I still suggest they make a public offering and/or ask for donations, I'll be good for about $100 if they did that :)

truefan72

25th April 2008, 04:53

The decision should be this morning, as the talk of the deal was taken in place last night.

I suppose the Stoddart Group?

hopefully a positive outcome

leopard

25th April 2008, 05:04

All said the talk is still on going, until this time approaching the race day there aren't yet any clue about the positive result, except positive news about Briatore to get married anytime soon.

RaikkonenRules

27th April 2008, 20:54

Oh dear I think Davidson had to Start and Park. He came in on lap 8 or so for no apparent reason.

Valve Bounce

28th April 2008, 00:04

Oh dear I think Davidson had to Start and Park. He came in on lap 8 or so for no apparent reason.

Piquet's off brought gravel onto the track - one punctured ant's water cooler - and that was it. :(

gloomyDAY

29th April 2008, 17:07

Hope? (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67022)

hondacom

29th April 2008, 23:40

Valve Bounce

30th April 2008, 00:41

Why should Honda keep sinking millions into something that will never help their image. Their profits are already down and things are not getting any better. Sales are on the way down month after month.

You obviously missed all the discussions surrounding the founding of team Super Aguri. Takuma Sato is the face of F1 for Japan and if he doesn't get a race drive, there will be serious loss of face, image, sales and profits, not to mention demonstrations when the race goes to Japan.

DazzlaF1

30th April 2008, 00:52

Well, if Aguri Suzuki fails in this "crisis meeting" today, they could be finished, leaving 150 people out of a job and 2 decent drivers without race seats

Valve Bounce

30th April 2008, 00:58

Well, if Aguri Suzuki fails in this "crisis meeting" today, they could be finished, leaving 150 people out of a job and 2 decent drivers without race seats

You might cheer me up a little more if you told me Wall Street crashed again. :(

Valve Bounce

4th May 2008, 01:14

I just read this link, and although Weigl is optimistic, his backers do not appear to be locked in yet, and the cars are still in England although the parts have left for Turkey.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67117

Fry:Fry was quoted by the Reuters news agency as saying that he did not think Weigl had the necessary financial backing to make a success of a takeover of Super Aguri.

He said: [b][i]"It would appear unlikely that a company the size of Weigl is able to support a competitive Formula One team, unless of course there are other partners of which we have not been made aware."

I suppose the new few days will reveal all. :(

veeten

4th May 2008, 01:59

feels more and more to me like Arrows under Walkinshaw...

Mystery backers and name-dropping disguised as a means to find partners and secure funding just to get to the next race, let alone finishing the season.

and Red Bull looking to reduce their exposure in F1 by either selling off or eliminating Torro Rosso doesn't make matters any better.

CNR

4th May 2008, 13:39

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=34698

It is understood that rather than being sent on to Istanbul for the next round of the championship, the Super Aguri cars have been sent to the Honda F1 team's factory

Hawkmoon

4th May 2008, 13:48

You obviously missed all the discussions surrounding the founding of team Super Aguri. Takuma Sato is the face of F1 for Japan and if he doesn't get a race drive, there will be serious loss of face, image, sales and profits, not to mention demonstrations when the race goes to Japan.

If Sato was really that important to Honda they would stick him in the car alongside Button. They haven't, preferring a long-in-the-tooth Brazilian who's done very little with what he's been given. OK he hasn't been given much but still, he's not exactly set the world on fire now has he.

I think Sato's stature is overblown at times. Sure the Japanese love him but they'll get over his lack of a drive soom enough. There's Nakajima in the Williams-Toyota for them to hang their hats on.

If Honda were winning then I'm sure Super Aguri wouldn't be in this mess. The fact that Honda can't get their own cars sorted out, let alone help Super Aguri with theirs is, I believe, why Honda will let Super Aguri disappear.

At best an outside party comes in a puts money into the team. One way or another Honda will sever it's links with Super Aguri sooner rather than later.

Giuseppe F1

4th May 2008, 14:32

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67142

Super Aguri denied access to Istanbul

By Jonathan Noble Sunday, May 4th 2008, 12:21 GMT

Super Aguri's trucks and motorhome have been refused access to the paddock at Istanbul ahead of next week's Turkish Grand Prix, autosport.com has learned, as the saga surrounding their future took a fresh twist on Sunday.

With the team hoping that a meeting with the Honda board this week will see a rescue package put forward by German automotive company the Weigl Group accepted, the outfit have been left baffled by events developing in Turkey.

Although the team's cars are currently in Britain pending the outcome of the talks with Honda, they had dispatched their spares trucks and motorhome to Turkey to prepare for the next race.

However, sources have revealed to autosport.com that neither the motorhome nor the trucks were allowed into the paddock where teams have begun setting up ahead of the next round of the world championship.

When asked for an explanation from officials about why they were not allowed access to the paddock, sources claim the reason was that Honda Racing CEO Nick Fry had informed Formula One management that Super Aguri would not be racing in Turkey.

The development comes just 24 hours after Fry made it clear that he did not believe the rescue package from Weigl was good enough to secure Super Aguri's future.

He said "It would appear unlikely that a company the size of Weigl is able to support a competitive Formula One team, unless of course there are other partners of which we have not been made aware."

Weigl himself hit back at those claims, revealing to autosport.com on Saturday that he did indeed have investment partners and a long-term plan for the team, and that he was confident of a positive outcome from the Honda board meeting.

Fry has made no secret of the fact that he does not want Super Aguri to continue being a drain on the resources of the Honda Racing F1 team. Speaking to autosport.com at the Spanish Grand Prix, Fry said he believed Honda had already supported Super Aguri far beyond what was originally intended.

"Our position is that Honda have given Super Aguri every available bit of support over and above what was anticipated," said Fry in Barcelona. "We tried to help as much as possible and Honda never intended to fund two F1 teams. We've gone way beyond what was ever originally anticipated. Now Aguri has got to find some money."

With no access to the paddock, Super Aguri's trucks and motorhome are parked outside the track waiting for further news from the team management. Team personnel have already begun travelling to the race.

Nikki Katz

4th May 2008, 14:39

Buzz Lightyear

4th May 2008, 17:07

Well, unless they come up with the money before, erm, is the meeting Wednesday, I guess that's that then. It's a real shame, although it didn't look much like Super Aguri would score any points this year, races are generally better with more cars. It's a shame for their two drivers too, I think it's unlikely either will return to F1.

surely they dont need to pay to get in? i believe a bond is paid at the start of each season, and if anything, the concorde agreement pay super augri per race thereafter.

if super aguri do not turn up for istanbul they lose their 20m USD bond.. no?

ChrisS

4th May 2008, 17:35

under what role is Nick Fry responsible to inform FOM if Super Aguri will race or not? He is the CEO of another team.

If he said that Ferrari wouldn't race would they denied them access too?

Azumanga Davo

4th May 2008, 18:13

under what role is Nick Fry responsible to inform FOM if Super Aguri will race or not? He is the CEO of another team.

If he said that Ferrari wouldn't race would they denied them access too?

Will you think about it? Nick Fry is the owner of a team owed money. He's got his rights (although I think he should look at the stated offers they have) to do whatever he pleases with essentially his property.

Personally, I don't think it's right, but then again, that's business.

No need to bring Ferrari to a non-Ferrari table, ta.

truefan72

4th May 2008, 18:41

Will you think about it? Nick Fry is the owner of a team owed money. He's got his rights (although I think he should look at the stated offers they have) to do whatever he pleases with essentially his property.

Personally, I don't think it's right, but then again, that's business.

No need to bring Ferrari to a non-Ferrari table, ta.

you are quite wrong in this matter as is Nick Fry

If Renault were not paid by Red Bull for their engines, that will still not give Flavio the right to deny or decree any edicts towards RBR and their ability to go about their business. That is an interpersonal matter between the 2 teams and has nothing to do with the fOM/FIA. If Super aguri shows up and is ready to set up camp then that is that. I am completely baffled by this turn of events.

A better example would be RBR and torro rosso.If they got into a similar siotuation where they cut off torro rosso and STR managed somehow to make it, then RBR can't tell them or FOM/FIA that they won;t be racing.

Being owed money is no license to influence a teams operation.

Speaking of personal,it seems like Nick fRy has taken it about himself to try and destroy the Super Aguri team becuase they were doing better than Honda last year (until he swiped the rug off under their feet) and has gone about in a blatanly vindictive manner to try and end their F1 aspirations. They probably disueded the Dubai group from going ahed with the deal and are now trying to bad mouth the team towards the Weigl group while at the same time taking a shot at the groups finances themselves. Rightfully, the W.Group hit back at his ill informed claims.

Shame on Nick fry and honda for being so shortsighted and petty. I will no longer support Honda's efforts while he's in charge. I have neer seen such distasteful behavior in response to a team that did a better job than the factory team with the limited resources provided.

Can you imagine Toyota behaving this way if Williams were beating them. Ferrari seem to get it right in this aspect, the more teams with their engines, etc, the better it is overall for ferrari. Sauber were a valid team under their wings.

gloomyDAY

4th May 2008, 19:34

Nick Fry is a dick.

Hondo

4th May 2008, 19:46

Nick Fry is a dick.

Simple, but elegant. Very nicely done.

Bagwan

4th May 2008, 20:07

It seems to be Fry doing all the talking .
Will he be the sacrificial lamb , to take all the punishment from the Japanese public if hero Taku doesn't take to the grid ?

It must be a low-ball offer , not enough to save face for the Honda boys .
Maybe it would leave them enough money as to be too competitive .

truefan72

5th May 2008, 02:08

CNR

5th May 2008, 02:26

I think that now Williams f1 has Kazuki Nakajima (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2008/827.html) honda may not need Takuma Sato (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2008/20.html) to keep the Japanese happy.

Aguri future 'in Honda's hands' - Weigl
http://www.homeofsport.com/f1/news/item.aspx?id=21905

Amid speculation that Weigl's proposed offer is only for a partial shareholding and initial funds only to cover the 2008 season, it has emerged that the company is also only willing to pay back the team's nearly $100m in debt to Honda over a three year period.
Magma Group, the prospective Aguri saviour whose Dubai backing recently fell through, was apparently willing to pay back the debt to Honda in one hit.
Weigl CEO Franz Josef Weigl, however, insists that his Bavaria-based company has the ability to prop up Super Aguri into the long term.
"The Weigl group's offer is backed by strong business finance partners who along with the Weigl group would like to invest long term and not just short term," he said.
"With our partners, the offer is not only about rescuing the team, but about constructing a future for Super Aguri and Takuma Sato."

truefan72

5th May 2008, 02:47

If Honda were winning then I'm sure Super Aguri wouldn't be in this mess. The fact that Honda can't get their own cars sorted out, let alone help Super Aguri with theirs is, I believe, why Honda will let Super Aguri disappear.

The truth is that from the start of 2007 with high spirits and a can-do attitude, Super Aguri were outperforming Honda in their F1 infancy. Within less than 8 months they went from idea to reality to outperforming Honda.

Honda initially went into this deal to establish a B-team more so than to provide Sato a ride. Their conglomerate attitude and over management made them slow to develop, apply change, listen to suggestions, or completely understand the machinations of modern F1 properly. They made some strides the year before but then went completely backwards as they stagnated with the false notion that they were the 3rd best team out there.

Then along comes Super Aguri, 1/10th the staff, minuscule budget and old adapted arrows cars. They then proceeded to outperform Honda with the similar or if not, the same 2007 components on their cars.

This all came to a boiling point in Canada when Sato passed Alonso in a Mclaren and both drivers showed real pace. Both beating the super Aguri's. At that point they had 4 WCC points to Honda's 0 and were regularly outpacing the Honda's.

By the time they got to Indianapolis, Honda were already cutting back on their commitments. Still, Davidson beat Jenson by more than 9.8 seconds.
This was the tipping point.

As soon as they got to France where both teams were scheduled to get new components, it was understood that Honda refused to supply them to Super Aguri, especially a new wing component and then in the following races were to receive extensive revisions to the car (which never happened)

As suspected, Honda scored their first point of the season, while super aguri with no development and basically being undercut, languished. After that, SA were continuously maligned by Honda and really were competing with a diminishing budget, hardly any parts and a fading future.

By the time 2008 rolled around Honda had effectively diminished the team. They were not going to be embarrassed again and have undertaken a campaign of distasteful behavior, especially by Nick fry that has brought them to the situation in Istanbul. Shame on them.

Valve Bounce

5th May 2008, 04:05

I cannot see Super Aguri racing again. Obviously there has been some disagreement whether Super Aguri was an asset or a curse for Team Honda last year when they were flogging the Team Honda cars. I think ant's position well into the points in Canada before he hit that groundhog must have really upset Fry because his efforts were, up to then, hopeless, helpless and hapless. Last year, Super Aguri were not permitted to use the wing they tested at Barcelona in an effort to hobble them to make Team Honda and therefore Fry look less bad. (if that was possible).

It is true that Naka is doing fairly well at Williams, but Taku has been the Team Honda man for ages, sponsored by Honda for many years. It remains to be seen how his Japanese fans will react to his sudden loss of his F1 seat through Nick Fry.

Hawkmoon

5th May 2008, 04:09

I think Honda have seen the folly in trying to support a second team when the works sucks as badly as theirs does. Nick Fry is just carrying out a directive from HQ in Japan. I'm sure Super Aguri aren't very popular down Brackley way but I doubt Fry would be acting without Honda's permission where Super Aguri are concerned.

I do have to question what right Honda have to bar Super Aguri from competing, though if Honda are a creditor then perhaps they can call in the debt?

Marshall

5th May 2008, 04:35

I have a horrible feeling we may not see SAF1 in a GP again.

maxu05

5th May 2008, 06:00

I wouldn't pee on a Honda. I think this stinks.

CNR

5th May 2008, 06:03

looking at the points maybe they will drop Rubens Barrichello (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2008/8.html) and put Sato back in.

17 Rubens Barrichello (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2008/8.html) Brazilian Honda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2008/2927.html) 0

CNR

5th May 2008, 06:10

I hope the buyout dose happen and that they can do some thing with the car so that it will beat the honda works team.

12 Jenson Button (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2008/6.html) British Honda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2008/2927.html) 3 Points.

or a race where all front runners crash out of the race to give the first race win.

like button's win.

ShiftingGears

5th May 2008, 09:52

Valve Bounce

5th May 2008, 10:44

This is going nowhere, is it??

In the final analysis, I think we have seen the last of Super Aguri. :(

AndyRAC

5th May 2008, 13:38

dc10

5th May 2008, 13:50

Phew, I've gone right off Honda.
I think the treatment of SA is scandalous. Do hope they get investment sorted out soon. Would be a crying shame to lose yet another team. ;(

Ranger

5th May 2008, 14:05

Such a shame, another team bites the dust.
However, what is the point of Nick Fry? Time after time he proves just how out of his depth he is. He was useless at Ford, useless at Honda, just what does he do?

Well, he does have to front up to the often incompetent decisions that Honda in Japan have made (Richards, Willis sacking, a technical director being hired as a designer - and the RA107 that followed).

So to blame him entirely for taking this decision is pretty silly, as for the most part he is a puppet.

Valve Bounce

5th May 2008, 15:01

We can always look on the brighter side - Honda just found themselves two great test drivers. I'm sure bunsen will be pleased.

ozrevhead

5th May 2008, 15:10

I feel for the workers at SA with their jobs gone like that because Honda cracked the s___ts because SA was beating them.

Ants probally lost his seat and Rubins will be made to retire to keep Sato in F1 to appease honda

It makes me so angry - SHAME HONDA SHAME :down: :angryfire

veeten

5th May 2008, 16:10

It's just sad, reading Sato being reduced to a "beggin' Benny", just to keep any hope for SA alive. :(

Meanwhile, Nick Fry is trying hard to shovel more dirt onto SA's grave, moreso in hopes of keeping his own job at Honda F1. :hmph:

truefan72

5th May 2008, 18:38

Garry Walker

5th May 2008, 18:48

Honda has helped SA far enough already, SA owes them around 100 million dollars I hear. Honda has the right to put an end to this farce and stop supporting SA. If that means the end of SA, then so be it. This is not charity and Honda has helped SA more than anyone reasonable would expect, Honda has much better use for the money than wasting it on SA.

If SA are so incompetent and can`t get any sponsors who would pay up, tough luck.

Garry Walker

5th May 2008, 18:50

SA is a joke at the moment and quite frankly I hope that I have seen the last of them if this is really the best they can do. How long do they expect Honda to bail them out?

Tazio

5th May 2008, 19:01

5th May 2008, 23:30

Apparantly the cars have actually been confiscated from SA by Honda...

Tazio

6th May 2008, 00:08

Apparantly the cars have actually been confiscated from SA by Honda...
Could you provide a LINK PLEASE! :p :
My research isn't giving me the same reading-over- ;)

BDunnell

6th May 2008, 00:41

The truth is surely that Honda should never have established the team in the first place, and still cannot escape criticism for that. It was set up for the wrong reason, and I have little sympathy for Honda in this situation. The workforce could be forgiven for feeling rather aggrieved.

CNR

6th May 2008, 01:32

Could you provide a LINK PLEASE! :p :
My research isn't giving me the same reading-over- ;)

my post on
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124265&page=6

Tazio

6th May 2008, 01:52

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=34698You conveiniently left out the next, and final sentace of that pitpass article. ;)
Thanks for the rumor though!

Originally Posted by
It is understood
that rather than being sent on to Istanbul for the next round of the championship,
the Super Aguri cars have been sent to the Honda F1 team's factory.
Though this has not been officially confirmed by either team.

Just pointing it out in the interest of fair diclosure! :p :
Peace Bro :up:

N. Jones

6th May 2008, 01:57

Tazio

6th May 2008, 02:19

Sorry for being a doubting Thomas I did find an article that apears to confirm what the other one suggested!
It's good enough for me! I think it sucks by Honda. If they do get to race
they will have lost time affecting repairs on the Ant's rig!

"Super Aguri's cars, effectively last year's Honda, were returned to Honda F1's Brackley factory after the last race in Barcelona on April 28.
The cars were still there on Friday although the trucks carrying spares and other equipment travelled direct from Barcelona to Istanbul"

http://thestar.com.my/sports/story.asp?file=/2008/5/6/sports/21158323&sec=sports

Peace Bro :p :

truefan72

6th May 2008, 05:29

In STR's case I think they have a much better opportunity to move up in the standings than SA; therefore someone is going to buy them.

lets not forget that before the Honda maliciousness began in france 2007. Super aguri were steadily running from P8-P14, which made them well beyond STR, spyker,Honda last year and challenging Toyoya, and Red Bull for those last points paying position.

I think if they continued on that pace, they would still be well in p8-p12 this year with the occasional higher finish.

Super Aguri last year proved that with 2 decent drivers, lots of passion and dedication and a limited budget, one can be competitive in F1. Not all the glory is in winning races, for these teams but to challenge for points, TV time and run a healthy outfit in the most prestigious racing series.

Who knows' 5,6 years dwon the line, we could have been talking about Super Aguri winnig races...oh well.

Honda's and our loss. Short term gain for long term pain. IMO

btw I wionder how Schnell is dealing with this trgic tunr of events.

Valve Bounce

6th May 2008, 06:46

lets not forget that before the Honda maliciousness began in france 2007. Super aguri were steadily running from P8-P14, which made them well beyond STR, spyker,Honda last year and challenging Toyoya, and Red Bull for those last points paying position.

I think if they continued on that pace, they would still be well in p8-p12 this year with the occasional higher finish.

Super Aguri last year proved that with 2 decent drivers, lots of passion and dedication and a limited budget, one can be competitive in F1. Not all the glory is in winning races, for these teams but to challenge for points, TV time and run a healthy outfit in the most prestigious racing series.

Who knows' 5,6 years dwon the line, we could have been talking about Super Aguri winnig races...oh well.

Honda's and our loss. Short term gain for long term pain. IMO

btw I wionder how Schnell is dealing with this trgic tunr of events.

This is heartbreaking for all the fans of this giant killing team. It is heartbreaking for Taku's fans as well as ant's fans. Since last year, I have learnt to respect Taku's driving ability, which for me was a huge come down. It seems that once he didn't have to race as bunsen's team mate, his whole approach to racing changed : gone was the desperation banzai charges, and a more mature Taku developed. As for ant, what can I say? Nothing I can say or feel would compare with the hurt and disappointment of his dad.

Garry Walker

6th May 2008, 08:22

Who knows' 5,6 years dwon the line, we could have been talking about Super Aguri winnig races...oh well.

Honda's and our loss. Short term gain for long term pain. IMO
If SA cannot find any funding of their own, give me one reason why Honda should keep pouring money in them, especially in the current economic downturn? So far they have financed SA with ridicolous amounts of money and gotten nothing for it. Except being owed over 100 million dollars.
If SA can`t survive on their own and find any funding, why would you assume they would have gone on to much bigger things? Or did you expect Honda to just keep giving them money forever? Is Honda really a charity?

Honda will benefit from cutting off giving SA money both long-term and short-term, SA is just being a drain on precious resources.

btw I wionder how Schnell is dealing with this trgic tunr of events.

Tragic? His son has made a few millions of dollars and done exactly as well as his limited talent allowed him to. Nothing tragic.

CNR

6th May 2008, 08:54

why is honda trying to kill off Super Aguri are they running scared of what weigl could do for Super Aguri

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/162956-0/weigl_super_aguri_must_survive.html

The first is the number of contacts that the Weigl Group already has, business-wise, with existing F1 teams through the manufacturers. As a company, we believe in enterprise and long-term investment and implementation of proper planning. Our prime mission and goal - with the help of Honda (http://www.crash.net/gpa/team_team~teamsroot_id~7872.htm) - is to bring Super Aguri (http://www.crash.net/gpa/team_team~teamsroot_id~8184.htm) to a superior technological level. Our company masters the technical know-how to bring this about.

"I also strongly believe that, to remain sound, F1 needs private teams and not only manufacturer works teams. I am convinced that our group has the right technology package needed to help Super Aguri compete with the other private teams and to give the right tools to Honda to see it happen - and even bring Super Aguri to a much higher competitive level.

PSfan

6th May 2008, 09:23

Game over: Super Aguri :(

As found on autosport:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Super Aguri withdraw from Formula One

By Jonathan Noble Tuesday, May 6th 2008, 07:16 GMT

Super Aguri have withdrawn from the Formula One world championship with immediate effect, the team announced on Wednesday.

Team principal Aguri Suzuki is understood to have met with the Honda board in Japan on Tuesday, but the outcome of that meeting was that the team will no longer be racing.

"In order to realise my dream to become an owner of a Formula One team, I applied for a grid position in the FIA Formula One World Championship in November 2005," said Suzuki in a statement issued by the team. "Since then, I have participated in the championship for two years and four months as the Super Aguri F1 Team, but regretfully I must inform you that the team will be ceasing its racing activities as of today."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67170
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Truly a sad day for F1

Lemmy-Boy

6th May 2008, 09:23

Turn off the lights, the party is over! Sayonara Super Suzuki F1!

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20318.html

ShiftingGears

6th May 2008, 09:46

I hope come Super Aguri staff will find their way into working for Honda seeing as during last year they actually knew how to work their limited resources.

truefan72

6th May 2008, 10:08

A sad day for F1, completely avoidable

truefan72

6th May 2008, 10:13

Its over
http://eurosport.yahoo.com/06052008/58/super-aguri-drops-f1.html

shame on honda and especially Nick Fry

I hope he is happy with himself being responsible for 300 peopel losing their jobs due to petty embarrasment.

Honda which has buckets of money stashed away for all sorts of other racing endeavors couldn't find a way to support another team in F1. How about just forgiving them their debot and mving forward. The amount of money owed to them was like them paying themselves.

Any time we lose an F1 team its a loss to the general public.

Ranger

6th May 2008, 10:38

Its over
http://eurosport.yahoo.com/06052008/58/super-aguri-drops-f1.html

shame on honda and especially Nick Fry

I hope he is happy with himself being responsible for 300 peopel losing their jobs due to petty embarrasment.

Honda which has buckets of money stashed away for all sorts of other racing endeavors couldn't find a way to support another team in F1. How about just forgiving them their debot and mving forward. The amount of money owed to them was like them paying themselves.

I'm sorry but your comment lacks basic common sense.

How on Earth can you 'forgive and forget' a debt of $100 million? :rolleyes:

Sympathies go to the Super Aguri workers, although being in an F1 team is surely enough on their CV to guarantee successful employment elsewhere, if not in F1.

Tom206wrc

6th May 2008, 11:28

Sad news the loss of SA... :(

millencolin

6th May 2008, 12:20

I'm heartbroken, well and truly heartbroken. When I attended the Japanese Grand Prix last year, I fell in love with Super Aguri.

F1 is worse off without the likes of Super Aguri. Thanks a lot Honda, I hope you're happy. Instead of using this team to your marketing advantage, you trampled them like a canetoad being hit with a 3wood.

dc10

6th May 2008, 12:43

Very sad news. ;(
My thoughts go out to the team's personnel who are now out of jobs. :mad:

Bagwan

6th May 2008, 13:08

Two years and four months completed for only a hundred million bucks .
Top teams spend that in just the four months .

The Weigel group was planning on paying that back over a couple of years .
If not Weigel , has Honda given up on the hundred million ?

Are they that afraid of being beaten ?

Aguri said good things about Honda , and had nothing good to say about Fry .
We'll see what the Japanese public has to say about this in the coming days .
Remember , this whole effort was a reaction to the negative criticism about Taku not having a seat .

He is seatless again . This may not be over .

There is also the matter of the twenty million dollar bond for appearance , which shall be lost if they don't . Whose cash is that ?

ArrowsFA1

6th May 2008, 13:35

While this is very sad news, it seemed almost inevitable as soon as problems with team sponsor SS United came to light. From then on the team were always struggling to survive. The row over 'customer cars' just made things worse. While Honda had been there at the start, because of Sato, they were never going to support the team indefinitely and it was down to Super Aguri to find funding themselves to continue and clearly they couldn't do that.

All of this just shows that the cost of competing in F1 has reached absurd levels, and the sport is 'owned' by major motor manufacturers and/or investment groups.

It will be interesting to see if Dietrich Mateschitz will find a buyer for Toro Rosso before 2010, because he's basically cast his 'junior' team adrift as Honda have done.

BDunnell

6th May 2008, 14:06

All of this just shows that the cost of competing in F1 has reached absurd levels, and the sport is 'owned' by major motor manufacturers and/or investment groups.

This will surely come back to haunt the sport when that manufacturer support diminishes, as I believe it is bound to at some point, and when a couple of those investment firms decide they can't be bothered with F1 any more and choose to take their capital somewhere else, as they almost certainly will.

CNR

6th May 2008, 14:17

why did honda kill off Super Aguri where they running scared of what weigl could do for Super Aguri

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/162956-0/weigl_super_aguri_must_survive.html

? It means British driver Anthony Davidson is now without an F1 drive for the rest of hte 2008 season.

ShiftingGears

6th May 2008, 14:18

? It means British driver Anthony Davidson is now without an F1 drive for the rest of hte 2008 season.

Really?

Dave B

6th May 2008, 14:29

The debacle over allowing customer cars has played a major part in this. By outlawing such cars, the rulemakers have made Super Aguri almost uninvestable. A real shame.

Valve Bounce

6th May 2008, 14:47

Super Aguri caused Team Honda and Nick fry to lose face last year, by being beaten with their second hand car from the previous year. I don't think Team Honda ever felt comfortable about being beaten by this small team racing outdated cars on a budget.

I wonder why it took so long for Honda to pull the plug?

Valve Bounce

6th May 2008, 15:01

I note the original thread about Super Aguri was moved. I guess that says it all :(

CNR

6th May 2008, 15:04

http://www.oddspreview.com/read/super-aguri-out-of-f1-championship-060508

It means British driver Anthony Davidson is now without an F1 drive for the rest of the 2008 season.

i find it odd that it dose not say Takuma Sato (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2008/20.html) is without an F1 drive for the rest of the 2008 season.

how will Rubens go at the next race is his seat safe.

Valve Bounce

6th May 2008, 15:05

I am putting a Malacca hex on Team Honda and Nick Fry - this team will never do well, NEVER.

ozrevhead

6th May 2008, 15:19

I am putting a Malacca hex on Team Honda and Nick Fry - this team will never do well, NEVER.

Cant you wait till Rubins retires first before you do that :p

As for why would honda keep going with SA because they lost huge amounts of money - why did they bother in the first place if they were not willing to do it right in the first place!

Bagwan

6th May 2008, 16:31

Who is to blame here ?
The steel company investors left them in a lurch last year .
Then the potential investors , Magma , left them in a lurch , due to a turn-about in rules .
Then , the new potential investors were turned down .

$100,000,000.00 is recoverable , over 2 or 3 years , and yet Honda pulled the plug .
Is it that the missing money is not enough to offset the shame of a potential loss to a team they created for the hero , Taku ?
Did they not make a team that was worthy of such effort ?

Therein lies the real loss of face for Honda . They might point to Fry as the bad guy , but it was when the SA team began to show well , that the half-assed intentions of the effort were shown as obvious lip service to the Japanese fan .
When they were not given the front wing , and protested that they were not being treated fairly , the writing was on the wall .

Fry and Honda must hope for Button and Barrichello to do well this weekend , as they will need good results to deflect some of the storm of criticism they will endure in the coming days .

DazzlaF1

6th May 2008, 17:00

Bagwan

6th May 2008, 17:36

veeten

6th May 2008, 17:40

I note the original thread about Super Aguri was moved. I guess that says it all :(

may as well call it "The Death of Super Aguri", now... :(

Garry Walker

6th May 2008, 18:00

So , tell us , Honda , what was wrong with the Weigel deal ?
It was there on the table , and Suzuki certainly saw it as possible .

They have no obligation to tell anyone, but Honda must have had a good reason for rejecting it, right?

veeten

6th May 2008, 18:14

Aguri-san , according to Honda , fell on his sword because he was unable , even with the mighty support of the mothership , to find sponsorship .

So , tell us , Honda , what was wrong with the Weigel deal ?
It was there on the table , and Suzuki certainly saw it as possible .

seems more that the Weigl deal would've been to a point that Honda would still have to stump up cash to cover them, as the question of additional sponsors was still unanswered.

The main gist of this sad little melodrama is that there are (for the forseeable future) no new manufacturers coming into F1, so long as the remains of the Concorde Agreement are still being used. What we are seeing is a preview to what STR and Force India will be in for by '10, when they will have to produce a viable chassis of their own design and construction. Add in the increased cost of an engine/drivetrain deal, either new or renegotiated, and watch what happens.

Arrividerci, Torro Rosso...

Namaste, Force India...

It will require a lot more money to achieve those goals, more than what either ownership are willing to part company with, and those sponsors aren't willing just to be a 'rolling billboard' on F1 weekends, no matter how many are watching.

weeflyonthewall

6th May 2008, 18:28

The main gist of this sad little melodrama is that there are (for the forseeable future) no new manufacturers coming into F1, so long as the remains of the Concorde Agreement are still being used. What we are seeing is a preview to what STR and Force India will be in for by '10, when they will have to produce a viable chassis of their own design and construction. Add in the increased cost of an engine/drivetrain deal, either new or renegotiated, and watch what happens.

Arrividerci, Torro Rosso...

Namaste, Force India...

It will require a lot more money to achieve those goals, more than what either ownership are willing to part company with, and those sponsors aren't willing just to be a 'rolling billboard' on F1 weekends, no matter how many are watching.

The same rule change melodrama that prompted Prodrive's departure? That projected 2010 grid is looking pretty pathetic.

Bagwan

6th May 2008, 19:05

They have no obligation to tell anyone, but Honda must have had a good reason for rejecting it, right?

No obligation , Garry , but $100million is a lot of cake .
The deal involved paying it back over time .

Just how bad a deal would it have to be to ignore that ?

Why keep it a secret , when they could show all that it was a crappy deal ?

Bagwan

6th May 2008, 19:15

seems more that the Weigl deal would've been to a point that Honda would still have to stump up cash to cover them, as the question of additional sponsors was still unanswered.

The main gist of this sad little melodrama is that there are (for the forseeable future) no new manufacturers coming into F1, so long as the remains of the Concorde Agreement are still being used. What we are seeing is a preview to what STR and Force India will be in for by '10, when they will have to produce a viable chassis of their own design and construction. Add in the increased cost of an engine/drivetrain deal, either new or renegotiated, and watch what happens.

Arrividerci, Torro Rosso...

Namaste, Force India...

It will require a lot more money to achieve those goals, more than what either ownership are willing to part company with, and those sponsors aren't willing just to be a 'rolling billboard' on F1 weekends, no matter how many are watching.

I understood the additional sponsors were merely un-named , not non-existant . Did Fry not say something about not believing the backing was there ?
I'm not sure why the Weigel bid weren't putting all the cards on the table , but , they said it was solid .

Curious is how Aguri pointed to Fry , saying it was none of his business .
Given that Honda is sending sad sorrys to Suzuki , we may indeed see Nick fry .

Garry Walker

6th May 2008, 19:19

No obligation , Garry , but $100million is a lot of cake .
The deal involved paying it back over time .

Just how bad a deal would it have to be to ignore that ?

Why keep it a secret , when they could show all that it was a crappy deal ?

How do you know it involved paying it back? We have no real source for that.

Osella

6th May 2008, 19:28

...when they will have to produce a viable chassis of their own design and construction.

Shouldn't be a problem for Force India, as they already do, and were willing to take Toro Rosso and Super Aguri to court in order to get their money in their guise as Spyker..

"I don't understand how suddenly Nick Fry needs to be commenting on everything," said Suzuki. "Honda were our backers and he's not the CEO of Honda. I have no interest in Nick Fry whatsoever and have no idea what he was talking about."

:up: :up: Well said Aguri! Fry should at least have been dignified and kept quiet about the situation until at was all resolved/over..

VkmSpouge

6th May 2008, 19:30

A real shame to lose Super Aguri :(

Bagwan

6th May 2008, 20:09

How do you know it involved paying it back? We have no real source for that.

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12433_3524483,00.html

Surprisingly , I actually found a place I read it .
I believe I saw it elsewhere as well .

Perhaps it's only speculation , but I seem to recall that part of the fall of the Magma offer was over the payback schedule of the $100million as well .
I could be wrong about that , but it rings a bell .

Roamy

6th May 2008, 21:18

Well get ready to see more. Timex Boy (Mosely - he takes a whipping and keeps on ticking) is destroying F1 letting the cost soar out of sight fining teams 100 mil like he is some dicktator. You have winglets all over the cars and they look like **** just trying to eek out a half of tenth. They can't pass, you need a multimillion dollar windtunnel to even get in the top 10. If the economy keeps falling worldwide I would suspect many sponsors will start looking at their investment. Actually the best packaged series just went under. The panoz/cosworth package was one of the most beautiful and affordable ways to go racing. I guess many won't play if you can't buy your way to the top.

Hawkmoon

7th May 2008, 01:15

I think the demise of Super Aguri, in part at least, shows that customer cars were not right for Formula 1. Yes it would have increased the size of the grid but for how long? Super Aguri were obviously not viable without substantial support from Honda. Are Toro Rosso any different? If they don't get rebadged Red Bulls will they still be viable or will they fall to the back and eventually off the grid?

The symbiotic relationship between Super Aguri and Honda obviously became parasitic from Honda's persepective. Red Bull putting STR up for sale would suggest that they feel the same way.

I'm sad to see Super Aguri go. I grew up with F1 when there was pre-qualifying for the bottom teams just to get into qualifying and then only the fastest 26 would actually start the race. I loved that period and would love to see something like it again, though I know we never will. Super Aguri were obviously not a viable entity in their own right and I don't think you can blame Honda for not wanting to further drain their resources when they are struggling to improve themselves.

CNR

7th May 2008, 01:18

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=34728
Minardi sympathises with Suzuki

"Currently F1 does not see the various struggles that there are at the back of the field. And given that the machines have now reached a good level of reliability, there is little interest in the survival of a small team."

Valve Bounce

7th May 2008, 01:20

I think the demise of Super Aguri, in part at least, shows that customer cars were not right for Formula 1

.

I find it very difficult to fathom this concept. My view, for what it's worth is entirely opposite.

With the banning of customer cars, basically Torro Rosso and Super Aguri would not be able to race anything remotely competitive next year. Under the circumstances, sponsors would be very difficult to find - who would fund a team racing old Arrows cars from years gone by, for goodness sake??

Hawkmoon

7th May 2008, 01:39

I find it very difficult to fathom this concept. My view, for what it's worth is entirely opposite.

With the banning of customer cars, basically Torro Rosso and Super Aguri would not be able to race anything remotely competitive next year. Under the circumstances, sponsors would be very difficult to find - who would fund a team racing old Arrows cars from years gone by, for goodness sake??

That's the point Valve. Customer teams aren't strong enough to be viable in their own right. They need massive support from a manufacturer just to be remotely competitive. Take that support away and they fall apart.

What happens if Renault decide that they've had enough of F1? They leave and Red Bull have to find new engines. No big deal. Now suppose that Red Bull are running the entire Renault car and rely on Renault for much, if not all, of their engineering and development. Renault pull out and Red Bull fall apart because they have no foundation of their own.

The only way that customer teams would work is if they bought a car from a manufacturer and that was it. No support other than spare parts when needed. That way the customer can source a car from elsewhere if their current supplier pulls the plug, as is the case with current engine supply deals. The team would have to be commercially viable in it's own right. That's not the case with Super Aguri.

Super Aguri were too reliant on Honda. I dare say that STR aren't that much further removed from Red Bull. They have no sponsorship other than Red Bull. Without Red Bull they are screwed.

Formula 1's foundations would be nothing more than a house of cards if it were reliant on customer teams filling up the grid. It may have worked in the past but it won't work today.

Valve Bounce

7th May 2008, 01:50

That's the point Valve. Customer teams aren't strong enough to be viable in their own right. They need massive support from a manufacturer just to be remotely competitive. Take that support away and they fall apart.

What happens if Renault decide that they've had enough of F1? They leave and Red Bull have to find new engines. No big deal. Now suppose that Red Bull are running the entire Renault car and rely on Renault for much, if not all, of their engineering and development. Renault pull out and Red Bull fall apart because they have no foundation of their own.

The only way that customer teams would work is if they bought a car from a manufacturer and that was it. No support other than spare parts when needed. That way the customer can source a car from elsewhere if their current supplier pulls the plug, as is the case with current engine supply deals. The team would have to be commercially viable in it's own right. That's not the case with Super Aguri.

Super Aguri were too reliant on Honda. I dare say that STR aren't that much further removed from Red Bull. They have no sponsorship other than Red Bull. Without Red Bull they are screwed.

Formula 1's foundations would be nothing more than a house of cards if it were reliant on customer teams filling up the grid. It may have worked in the past but it won't work today.

I don't want to go off topic on this discussion as this was about Super Aguri. You are correct that Super Aguri were dependent on Honda. To what degree and for what reasons is the crux of the matter. We all know why Super Aguri was formed in the first place, but once Taku's Japanese fans were satisfied that he was still in F1, albeit racing an antique Arrows, Honda saved face. This situation alterred dramatically when Super Aguri inherited a not bad second hand Honda and started to thrash Team Honda - Severe Loss of Face there for Nick Fry and the Honda bosses; Super Aguri had to be stopped. And stop them Honda did. It was never about funding. Just ask yourself why Honda denied Super Aguri the use of the wings they tested at Barcelona!! Super Aguri's drivers would have thrashed bunsen on the track. No!! Super Aguri had to be erased!!

As for customer cars, that should be a subject of another thread, and I would be glad to discuss this topic there. But in the meanwhile, there were around 8 teams willing to enter F1 if they were permitted to use customer cars. They all vanished when customer cars were no longer permitted.

Hawkmoon

7th May 2008, 01:59

I don't want to go off topic on this discussion as this was about Super Aguri. You are correct that Super Aguri were dependent on Honda. To what degree and for what reasons is the crux of the matter. We all know why Super Aguri was formed in the first place, but once Taku's Japanese fans were satisfied that he was still in F1, albeit racing an antique Arrows, Honda saved face. This situation alterred dramatically when Super Aguri inherited a not bad second hand Honda and started to thrash Team Honda - Severe Loss of Face there for Nick Fry and the Honda bosses; Super Aguri had to be stopped. And stop them Honda did. It was never about funding. Just ask yourself why Honda denied Super Aguri the use of the wings they tested at Barcelona!! Super Aguri's drivers would have thrashed bunsen on the track. No!! Super Aguri had to be erased!!

As for customer cars, that should be a subject of another thread, and I would be glad to discuss this topic there. But in the meanwhile, there were around 8 teams willing to enter F1 if they were permitted to use customer cars. They all vanished when customer cars were no longer permitted.

I think the part I have highlighted proves my point that Super Aguri were not a viable entity. They had no way of developing their car beyond what Honda gave them. It doesn't really matter why Honda didn't give them the wing. What matters is that Super Aguri where reliant on Honda to such an extent that they couldn't make their car go faster without Honda. They either weren't allowed to or simply couldn't develop that car by themselves. That's no way to go racing in a series like F1.

Valve Bounce

7th May 2008, 02:11

I think the part I have highlighted proves my point that Super Aguri were not a viable entity. They had no way of developing their car beyond what Honda gave them. It doesn't really matter why Honda didn't give them the wing. What matters is that Super Aguri where reliant on Honda to such an extent that they couldn't make their car go faster without Honda. They either weren't allowed to or simply couldn't develop that car by themselves. That's no way to go racing in a series like F1.

You are still avoiding the point I made that, with the wing Super Aguri tested on their cars, Super Aguri may have beaten the Team Honda cars again.

Just ask yourself WHY Honda and I would guess Nick Fry here denied Super Aguri the use of that wing? It was tested on the Super Aguri, not on the Honda.

I agree with you on one point: that Honda were no longer willing to fund Super Aguri, Honda's "B" team. The reason is not financial - it's because their "B" team was thrashing them.

CNR

7th May 2008, 02:12

honda 4 races 3 points they did not need Super Aguri to make them look silly
after all the hype of ross brown.

Hawkmoon

7th May 2008, 03:01

You are still avoiding the point I made that, with the wing Super Aguri tested on their cars, Super Aguri may have beaten the Team Honda cars again.

Just ask yourself WHY Honda and I would guess Nick Fry here denied Super Aguri the use of that wing? It was tested on the Super Aguri, not on the Honda.

I agree with you on one point: that Honda were no longer willing to fund Super Aguri, Honda's "B" team. The reason is not financial - it's because their "B" team was thrashing them.

No Valve I'm not avoiding the point. I don't think the reasons why Super Aguri didn't use the wing are at all relevant to the state of the team. It's highly likely that Honda didn't want Super Aguri using the wing to avoid the emabarressment of being beaten. The fact that Honda could prevent Super Aguri from using that wing means that Super Aguri were never a viable team. They were only there to serve Honda's purposes.

Even if Super Aguri could get the funding, which they couldn't, to continue running they were still at the mercy of Honda. That's not a state in which an F1 team can be for more than a very short time. Honda didn't want them around anymore so they aren't here. I still don't blame Honda for not wanting to support something that they felt had become detrimental to their success.

Valve Bounce

7th May 2008, 03:11

I still don't blame Honda for not wanting to support something that they felt had become detrimental to their success.

............or highlight there failure.

Hawkmoon

7th May 2008, 03:18

............or highlight there failure.

Quite possibly.

I think Honda have a bit form in that regard. I could be wrong but I believe that they pulled the plug on on the Jordan engine supply deal because, at least in part, Jordan were beating the BARs which were the nominal "works" Honda team.

Valve Bounce

7th May 2008, 03:35

Quite possibly.

I think Honda have a bit form in that regard. I could be wrong but I believe that they pulled the plug on on the Jordan engine supply deal because, at least in part, Jordan were beating the BARs which were the nominal "works" Honda team.

I've been thinking about all this. Honda hired Rubens, a guy who at one stage believed he would be the stone in SchM's shoe and that he could beat SchM for the championship. He replaced the guy they fired, Taku, because Taku could only score one single point all season, and was driving like a Kamikaze. The Japanese go apeshyte, so Honda goes along to Super Aguri, and tells him to form a team at Honda's expense, just so long as they could keep Taku's fans off their back. They bought the old Arrows stuff at bargain prices. Taku drones along at the back of the field with another Japanese driver - all is calm and bliss at Honda.

Then at some stage, some bright spark at Honda decides to let Super Aguri have their old cars - now Honda will have 4 cars to beat the likes of Red Bull, Torro Rosso and Stryker. The whole thing backfired when Super Aguri paints the cars to look pretty, while Honda's cars look like vomit, and these upstarts from Arrows's garage starts to thrash golden bunsen and WDC hopeful Rubens. Nick Fry is not amused. Ant was well on the way to 5th spot at Canada when he hit that groundhog - that would have been the worst disaster for Team Honda.

The rest is history, ignominious and saddening. Fry made the decision to pull out the thorn in his side - will he be made to take the rap at the Japanese GP? Time will tell.

maxu05

7th May 2008, 03:40

Have to agree with you Valve, sounds like Honda was embarrassed at being flogged by team #2.

Valve Bounce

7th May 2008, 04:06

Have to agree with you Valve, sounds like Honda was embarrassed at being flogged by team #2.

I don't think many of the forumers here fully realise the meaning of "Loss of Face".
I remember when I was in Korea, this was explained to me as someone who, when he loses face, would feel so low that it is an indescribable mental pain.
There was a train which arrived from near Kwanju exactly on time each day. One day, the train was 5 minutes late. The Station Master lost face - he killed himself.
So when Honda loses face, it is extremely serious.

Lalo

7th May 2008, 04:21

"Despite various rescue plans being put forward over the past few months, the Super Aguri F1 team has finally accepted the inevitable and revealed that it is to withdraw from the 2008 Formula One world championship.

Barred from the paddock at Istanbul Park ahead of this weekend's Turkish Grand Prix, the Leafield-based team had hoped that a bid by the Weigl Group would be accepted by Honda in order to remain on the grid, but the situation clearly proved untenable, and team owner Aguri Suzuki was forced to announce that, after two-and-a-bit seasons, his dream was over.

Formed with help from Honda in an effort to keep Japanese favourite Takuma Sato on the grid after he was dropped by BAR-Honda at the end of 2005, Super Aguri F1 made its debut with uprated Arrows chassis, before moving on to its own car, based heavily on those being run by the Honda works team. The hapless Yuji Ide was replaced by the experienced Franck Montagny in a bid to raise the team's development, before the Frenchman was, in turn, dropped for Sakon Yamamoto, as team boss Suzuki attempted to press on with his 'all-Japanese' dream.

Showing improved form with the 2007 pairing of Sato and Anthony Davidson behind the wheel, the team scored its first championship points after only 22 races, at the Spanish Grand Prix, and added more in Canada, to finish ninth overall in the constructors' championship.

However, the knock-on effect of a default in payments by a major sponsor - as well as the u-turn on the use of 'customer cars' - created uncertainty ahead of the 2008 campaign and, despite being linked to several apparently well-heeled suitors, and having the Weigl Group launch a last-ditch rescue bid in the run-up to Turkey, the team officially confirmed that it would cease all activities as of today [6 May 2008].

“In order to realise my dream to become an owner of a Formula One team, I applied for a grid position in the FIA Formula One World Championship in November 2005," Suzuki recounted, "Since then, I have participated in the championship for two years and four months as the Super Aguri F1 team, but regretfully I must inform you that the team will be ceasing its racing activities as of today.

"I would like to express my deepest thanks to Honda, Bridgestone, the sponsors, all the people who have given us advise during various situations over the past couple of years, [and] all the team staff, who have kept their motivations high and always done their best".".

Source: Crash.net

:(

Placid

7th May 2008, 04:35

What will be the fate of the Leafield base?

Will the next F1 team become # 11 on a certain future?

teamsuperimu

7th May 2008, 07:20

Well Super Aguri may now be gone but I do have this memory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNGuw7khT98

gloomyDAY

7th May 2008, 07:38

Well Super Aguri may now be gone but I do have this memory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNGuw7khT98One of the best bits of racing in recent history. Oh well, all gone and time to let go of Super Aguri.

Valve Bounce

7th May 2008, 07:43

Well Super Aguri may now be gone but I do have this memory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNGuw7khT98

Many, many thanks. :up:

Daniel

7th May 2008, 08:36

Well Super Aguri may now be gone but I do have this memory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNGuw7khT98
Everything sounds better in Japanese :D

ShiftingGears

7th May 2008, 08:42

Everything sounds better in Japanese :D

OFURONIHAEDIMASUKAGODZIRRAA!!!!AHHH!

Valve Bounce

7th May 2008, 10:45

You know, you guys are doing your best to cheer me up, and it is working. :(

Marshall

7th May 2008, 10:51

That is one of the few moments watching F1 where I've gotten off the couch to cheer someone on.

millencolin

7th May 2008, 11:18

Well Super Aguri may now be gone but I do have this memory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNGuw7khT98

That was... beautiful... just beautiful. Thank you

BDunnell

7th May 2008, 11:20

Fantastic stuff.

Azumanga Davo

7th May 2008, 12:00

Boffo, a good one.

Dave B

7th May 2008, 12:16

When you hear the American commentators in that YouTube clip you realise that James and Martin aren't so bad after all!

millencolin

7th May 2008, 12:18

When you hear the American commentators in that YouTube clip you realise that James and Martin aren't so bad after all!

I was thinking the exact opposite. they were talking about the whole move during the video, how Sato was lineing him up etc...

The C*ck and Martin was talking about Lewis Bloody Hamilton!
God I wish Australia had their own commentators

aryan

7th May 2008, 12:51

Well Super Aguri may now be gone but I do have this memory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNGuw7khT98

RIP Super Aguri :( :(

It's a sad day when we lose a team, specially one who clearly had abundant of spirit and character.

They should be proud of what they achieved in F1. Humbling the F1 Works team in the first half of 2007 was no small feat.

Bagwan

7th May 2008, 13:13

http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=83472&newlang=&topic=8&catid=0

So , how come Nick liked Magma over Weigel ?

Valve Bounce

7th May 2008, 14:30

http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=83472&newlang=&topic=8&catid=0

So , how come Nick liked Magma over Weigel ?

Probably because he knew Magma was never going to come through with a deal if he used his influence there also.

Tazio

7th May 2008, 15:49

When you hear the American commentators in that YouTube clip you realise that James and Martin aren't so bad after all!Those American commentators were Steve Matchet, and David Hobbs! Both Brits :dozey: Hobbs is absolutely hillarious. I think he adds a lot of color to Speeds coverage!

jens

7th May 2008, 20:32

Garry Walker

7th May 2008, 20:48

Bagwan

7th May 2008, 21:46

Honda was supposed to help SA for 2 seasons only. They did that. They even went out of their way to help SA this year, but enough is enough.

But , Garry , Fry , acting as Honda Racing division CEO , actively tried to and were ultimately successful in scuttling the deal that would have saved the team , according to Weigl .
He had the gates locked .

Honda , it would seem , could off-load a problem , and perhaps even recoup some of that "lost" cash .

Let us not forget Taku , as he was the reason for the team in the first place . He would still have a seat , and there would be no need for embarassment over that issue .

Bagwan

7th May 2008, 21:55

While Honda seems to be the major reason for the departure of Super Aguri, then on the other hand Honda's behaviour has been a result of pragmatic thinking and we have to understand them from this aspect. While the main team has been in trouble, then trying to finance one more team is simply an obstruction in trying to reach the top with A-team. In order to succeed, Honda needs to concentrate all their resources on one project. Probably Red Bull is finally starting to undestand too that owning two teams is rather a cost than a benefit and they need to sell their second team to have better chances to trouble top teams with their main team.

Would it not be even more pragmatic to sell it ?

It is already on the block , but being touted as a good operation for a start up entry for next year .
I thought they were already doing better than a start up entry this year so far , let alone last , with the plug pulled on development .

Would it not be more pragmatic sold as a going concern ?

Several suitors have apparently already expressed interest .
Seems weird to me , to have several parties interested in next year , when customer cars are a no-no .

Unless , of course , they know something we don't .
That wouldn't surprise me .

Garry Walker

7th May 2008, 22:41

But , Garry , Fry , acting as Honda Racing division CEO , actively tried to and were ultimately successful in scuttling the deal that would have saved the team , according to Weigl .
He had the gates locked .

Honda , it would seem , could off-load a problem , and perhaps even recoup some of that "lost" cash .

Let us not forget Taku , as he was the reason for the team in the first place . He would still have a seat , and there would be no need for embarassment over that issue .

I am sure Honda did what they did for a reason. Weigl is presenting their version of the story, but that is not neccesarily the truth.
I have heard that one of the reason Honda were so reluctant to sell it to Weigl was that fact that Weigl wanted to bring in a pay-driver and in their opinion it showed lack of committment, or rather, lack of avalilable funds. I also think Honda found it hard to believe that Weigl would, or rather, could, actually pay back the debts.

Let`s not take everything Weigl says at face value. Honda did what they did for a reason, they are not stupid.

Stuartf12007

7th May 2008, 22:49

lets all get together and buy Super Aguri, with Pedro Diniz and Yamamoto as our drivers ;)

BDunnell

7th May 2008, 22:51

While Honda seems to be the major reason for the departure of Super Aguri, then on the other hand Honda's behaviour has been a result of pragmatic thinking and we have to understand them from this aspect. While the main team has been in trouble, then trying to finance one more team is simply an obstruction in trying to reach the top with A-team. In order to succeed, Honda needs to concentrate all their resources on one project. Probably Red Bull is finally starting to undestand too that owning two teams is rather a cost than a benefit and they need to sell their second team to have better chances to trouble top teams with their main team.

While I do think there are some larger underlying issues about the future viability of F1 surrounding this, I couldn't agree more. Also, it shouldn't be forgotten that Super Aguri was set up for an entirely spurious reason. I wonder whether Sato fans in Japan will be as up in arms about the decision to scrap SA as they were about the decision to drop Sato from the main works team?

Valve Bounce

8th May 2008, 00:54

While I do think there are some larger underlying issues about the future viability of F1 surrounding this, I couldn't agree more. Also, it shouldn't be forgotten that Super Aguri was set up for an entirely spurious reason. I wonder whether Sato fans in Japan will be as up in arms about the decision to scrap SA as they were about the decision to drop Sato from the main works team?

News of the team's demise was received in Japan today by protestors carrying Super Aguri flags gathering outside Honda's headquarters in Aoyama, demonstrating against the manufacturer's refusal to continue to support the outfit, and their hero Sato.

DazzlaF1

8th May 2008, 01:19

With Super Aguri's demise, what would the other teams think, i for once would think that they'd share the opinion of Honda (being glad to see the back of them) and we all know Bernie and Mosley's opinions of the small privateer teams.

What has happened to F1, it used to be the championship where we loved to see the underdog do well, now its a corporate machine where the "underdogs" are being phased out.

And think what could happen if Maeschitz fails to sell Toro Rosso, potentially only 18 cars on the grid, not good at all

Valve Bounce

8th May 2008, 02:14

And think what could happen if Maeschitz fails to sell Toro Rosso, potentially only 18 cars on the grid, not good at all

The worst part of this is that nobody would buy Torro Rosso as they would have to start building a car from scratch, which would require zillions, not to mention a couple of years of testing before entering races.

And Super Aguri is in receivership, which means it could/has to be sold for whatever the Administrators can get. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67197
Probably one pound would be enough to buy this team.

In a statement, joint administrator Philip Long said: "This provides a unique opportunity to get into high-level motorsport without having to build an operation from scratch. In terms of capability, a new team could easily be up and running for the 2009 season. He forgot to mention they would have to build a new car from scratch.

But who would want to spend zillions to build a new car from scratch? I know there are interested parties - maybe Weigl will be able to get it for a lot less now, but it will come without any support from Honda. Once the Number Crunchers do their sums, I don't think we will see Super Aguri resurrected, and I predict Torro Rosso will go before the first race next year.

millencolin

8th May 2008, 02:20

News of the team's demise was received in Japan today by protestors carrying Super Aguri flags gathering outside Honda's headquarters in Aoyama, demonstrating against the manufacturer's refusal to continue to support the outfit, and their hero Sato.

oh thats freakin awesome!

Bagwan

8th May 2008, 15:45

I am sure Honda did what they did for a reason. Weigl is presenting their version of the story, but that is not neccesarily the truth.
I have heard that one of the reason Honda were so reluctant to sell it to Weigl was that fact that Weigl wanted to bring in a pay-driver and in their opinion it showed lack of committment, or rather, lack of avalilable funds. I also think Honda found it hard to believe that Weigl would, or rather, could, actually pay back the debts.

Let`s not take everything Weigl says at face value. Honda did what they did for a reason, they are not stupid.

Saying Honda isn't stupid doesn't explain why they don't beleive in the Weigl bid .
Obviously they preferred the Magma bid , as the Weigl people have been speaking with them for a while it seems .

I would just like to know why they scuttled the sale .

Garry Walker

8th May 2008, 19:43

I would just like to know why they scuttled the sale .

Because Honda had a good reason for it. I suspect the previous post in this thread I made highlighed possible reasons for it.

I find it funny how people are getting so emotional over this SA issue and lack rational thinking. The only reason SA existed was Honda. SA was supposed to manage on their own by now, but didn`t. Nick Fry is not to blame for that. No one at Honda is.
You want to blame someone, blame Aguri Suzuki and his incompetence.

I for one am glad this joke is over.

Bagwan

8th May 2008, 20:00

Because Honda had a good reason for it. I suspect the previous post in this thread I made highlighed possible reasons for it.

I find it funny how people are getting so emotional over this SA issue and lack rational thinking. The only reason SA existed was Honda. SA was supposed to manage on their own by now, but didn`t. Nick Fry is not to blame for that. No one at Honda is.
You want to blame someone, blame Aguri Suzuki and his incompetence.

I for one am glad this joke is over.

Maybe a joke , but a good joke , Garry . One that harrassed the works team with few dollars to play with .
Suzuki was left hanging for good enough funding to keep Honda happy last year , and he found another group willing to foot the bill now .

No one at Honda is responsible for building a team , solely to save face when they shafted the favourite son .

Oh , by the way , calling opinions that differ from your own "irrational" is pretty weak .
I gave you my "rational" explanation . If that doesn't suit you , that's fine with me .

I accept your view on this , but I , like the Japanese public , don't like what Honda has done here .
And , no one at Honda will admit to telling Fry to bar SA from entering the paddock in Istanbul .

It's turned into a bad joke . Honda , that is .

Valve Bounce

9th May 2008, 00:47

Saying Honda isn't stupid doesn't explain why they don't beleive in the Weigl bid .
Obviously they preferred the Magma bid , as the Weigl people have been speaking with them for a while it seems .

I would just like to know why they scuttled the sale .

But Baggy! you know we don't have the inside information from fictitious imaginary journalists like you know who has!!

stevie_gerrard

9th May 2008, 02:47

feel realy sorry for ant and takuma, it shows just how cruel this business can be. If super Aguri cannot survive, how are possible future manufacturers like Prodrive meant to?

Valve Bounce

9th May 2008, 02:51

feel realy sorry for ant and takuma, it shows just how cruel this business can be. If super Aguri cannot survive, how are possible future manufacturers like Prodrive meant to?

I think Prodrive saw which way the Piranhas were swimming and pulled out just in time. The no customer car situation made the entry into F1 non viable. I can see Torro Ross disappear before next year's race at Albert Park.

woody2goody

9th May 2008, 04:13

Because Honda had a good reason for it. I suspect the previous post in this thread I made highlighed possible reasons for it.

I find it funny how people are getting so emotional over this SA issue and lack rational thinking. The only reason SA existed was Honda. SA was supposed to manage on their own by now, but didn`t. Nick Fry is not to blame for that. No one at Honda is.
You want to blame someone, blame Aguri Suzuki and his incompetence.

I for one am glad this joke is over.

Yeah, he's really incompetent, getting a team to a Grand Prix in less than 100 days, with 4 year old chassis, and an inept driver (Ide) and still getting within 5 seconds of Ferrari and Renault.

You should be ashamed of that ignorant comment as Super Aguri were a great, proper team that made the most of what they had, fought and scrapped for all they were worth and made it through over 30 races with little or no help from everyone else. The sponsors bailed out on them, and now Honda. It's disgraceful how they have been treated.

Anyway, what 'joke' team can score 4 points in the World Championship on merit? If I had the money, I'd have bought Super Aguri, but unfortunately I haven't quite got the means to do so.

Didn't Ken Bates buy Chelsea for a pound a few years back?

Valve Bounce

9th May 2008, 06:06

Yeah, he's really incompetent, getting a team to a Grand Prix in less than 100 days, with 4 year old chassis, and an inept driver (Ide) and still getting within 5 seconds of Ferrari and Renault.

You should be ashamed of that ignorant comment as Super Aguri were a great, proper team that made the most of what they had, fought and scrapped for all they were worth and made it through over 30 races with little or no help from everyone else. The sponsors bailed out on them, and now Honda. It's disgraceful how they have been treated.

Anyway, what 'joke' team can score 4 points in the World Championship on merit? If I had the money, I'd have bought Super Aguri, but unfortunately I haven't quite got the means to do so.

Didn't Ken Bates buy Chelsea for a pound a few years back?

I can't believe you're argueing with a congenital idiot!

CNR

9th May 2008, 07:23

Bernie puts positive spin on Aguri collapse

Ecclestone, 77, had been touted as a potential saviour of the Leafield based outfit, and its administrators this week expressed confidence that the outfit might be sold as a going concern.
But, presumably given the team's reportedly $100m debt to Honda, the Briton said he baulked at the price tag.
"I didn't want to put in 100 million, which is what was needed," Ecclestone said.

i hope honda never see the money back

veeten

9th May 2008, 15:52

The thing is, what has affected SA, as will STR and already did Prodrive, is the fact that any team looking to be in F1, as of 2010, will have to supply a chassis of their own design and manufacture. They didn't have the funding to do so, and the sponsors that were onboard didn't make good on payments leaving them in a cash-strapped position.

We've seen Torro Rosso lose the only example of their new chassis in a testing crash and since have rescheduled the racing appearance of it twice, first Turkey and now Monaco. Add to this that Red Bull is looking for a buyer for TR and the question of its existance is quite unsure, as the new owner will have to pour more money into a new chassis two years later.

Good luck with that... :s

Presently, the newer independents had basically used the chassis, manufacture, and IP of the concerns that they had bought (Minardi, Jordan, Arrows), and added updates to them to qualify for use in F1 under new management. It was when they were using chassis from other teams that the hue and cry came about.

By virtually eliminating 3rd person manufacturers from F1 (Lola, Dallara, Judd, Asiatech, etc.), in an attempt to have the sport all to themselves, the major manufacturers were thinking that it would be attractive to others to join. But after much number crunching, we have seen many of them say the same thing.

" thanks, but no thanks. "

veeten

9th May 2008, 17:29

and now for your viewing & reading pleasure, a very interesting explanation of how SA got started and its demise...

http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/cooper-paying-the-piper/

PSfan

10th May 2008, 00:38

and now for your viewing & reading pleasure, a very interesting explanation of how SA got started and its demise...

http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/cooper-paying-the-piper/

That was a very good read, thanks.

It really confuses me though, in 2007 in order to circumvent the Concorde the team would have had to have very limited ties to Honda F1, so it would seem very odd that after going threw the trouble to have Honda R&D as the owners of the IP of the 2006 chassis, they would risk still being found illegal by having Honda F1 manufacture parts for them? And while I don't believe theories that Honda F1 refused them the magical front wing in order to keep them behind the A-team (Keep in mind, that chassis should have been fully developed by Honda F1 the previous year, and I doubt Super Aguri would have had the resources to come-up with anything better. only explanation I can come up with is maybe SA was testing a wing designed and manufactured for the 07 Honda, and had they used it themselves during a race, would then be breaking the rules set in the concorde agreement.)

And what really boggles my mind is, Concorde or no concorde this year, if Super Aguri's cars where being designed and built by Honda F1 this year, then why would they waste Honda F1 resources by making it a hack and slash job when it would be more beneficial to all if they just used the new car, and maybe handicapped it another way to keep it from beating the A-team.

Valve Bounce

10th May 2008, 01:42

And while I don't believe theories that Honda F1 refused them the magical front wing in order to keep them behind the A-team (Keep in mind, that chassis should have been fully developed by Honda F1 the previous year, and I doubt Super Aguri would have had the resources to come-up with anything better. only explanation I can come up with is maybe SA was testing a wing designed and manufactured for the 07 Honda, and had they used it themselves during a race, would then be breaking the rules set in the concorde agreement.)

.

My information from an most reliable and impeccable source says otherwise. Super Aguri were testing the wing on their car, not the 2007 Honda, and found it made their car much quicker.

Valve Bounce

10th May 2008, 01:58

CNR

10th May 2008, 02:17

http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/story/?id=237245&lid=headline&lpos=secStory_auto_racing

"We have a Japanese driver (Sato), never yet found a penny of sponsorship for him in Japan, and that's much cheaper than actually creating a team."

Fry said on Friday that he did not go out of his way to prevent future investment in Super Aguri.
"The reality is that when you looking at entering grand prix racing, you have to look at the medium and long-term, as well as the short-term," Fry tells autosport.com. "The reality is for Aguri, we were looking for a serious long-term partner and that takes very substantial resources. The one that we hoped would come to fruition was the Magma/DIC deal, but unfortunately that didn't."

did honda do this.

CNR

10th May 2008, 02:48

http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/cooper-paying-the-piper//P2/

The Leafield factory was available, a group of former Arrows designers had been working on an F1 project while hoping that a customer would come along,
who knows what would have been

? williams f1 where after an engine deal after bmw were not going to supply the engines for 2006.

PSfan

10th May 2008, 03:40

My information from an most reliable and impeccable source says otherwise. Super Aguri were testing the wing on their car, not the 2007 Honda, and found it made their car much quicker.

Well, that begs the question: Who's wing was it?

A: If it was Super Aguri's, then they or Honda R&D would have had to design and build it, in which case, I can't see how Honda Racing would be in any position to dictate its use

or

B: Honda Racing designed and built it, in which case the concorde would not have allowed Super Aguri to use the wing.

I'm inclined to believe it was B, and that in return for testing items for Honda Racing, Super Aguri would be getting engines and gearboxes at a discount.

This is a very interesting article. I would go one step further and ask whether Auper Aguri was the Honda B Team with another name.

Well that would be contradictory to the theory that Honda lost face when Super Aguri out-performed Honda Racing. Whether it was Honda a team doing well or honda b team doing well, its still a honda team doing well. Add to that, the Aguri livery represented Honda alot better then that earth car, if I was Honda, I would have prefered the red and whites doing better :p :

Also, when I think of the Montreal GP, I remember Sato beating Alonso, not Aguri beating Honda...

PSfan

10th May 2008, 03:48

http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/story/?id=237245&lid=headline&lpos=secStory_auto_racing

Fry said on Friday that he did not go out of his way to prevent future investment in Super Aguri.
"The reality is that when you looking at entering grand prix racing, you have to look at the medium and long-term, as well as the short-term," Fry tells autosport.com. "The reality is for Aguri, we were looking for a serious long-term partner and that takes very substantial resources. The one that we hoped would come to fruition was the Magma/DIC deal, but unfortunately that didn't."

did honda do this.

Um, my money is still on Fry. And I still don't understand his logic with the "long term partner" in Magma. I would certainly think when Magma gave up, even if the Weigle offer was considered "short term" I think it would be better then killing the deal, and the team with it...

Almost like having a serious leg injury, Do nothing, patient dies of infection, Doctor A can save the patient's life by amputating the leg, while Doctor B has excellent skills and can save the leg and the patient. When Doctor B is prevented from performing the operation, is it better to let the patient die, then to go with the amputation?

Valve Bounce

10th May 2008, 05:17

Well that would be contradictory to the theory that Honda lost face when Super Aguri out-performed Honda Racing. Whether it was Honda a team doing well or honda b team doing well, its still a honda team doing well. .

I have suspected all along that Super Aguri was funded by Team Honda as their B team. However, this would have been contrary to FIA regulations, so they had to find Aguri to provide a car for Sato.

I have suspected that Honda picked up the tab all along, but when the guy they fired, now driving their second hand car started to beat their WDC hopeful golden bunsen,
that's when they lost face. In thunderbolt's link, on page 2, there is a picture with a caption which may give this suspicion some credence.

PSfan

10th May 2008, 09:51

I still don't buy it.

By allowing Super Aguri the use of the 06 (a car that had won a race the previous year.) it would have been very easy to predict that the older car could out-perform the new design early in the season until Honda racing could work out the bugs, heck even Ferrari has in the past choosen to run an intern car for the early races in a season to get the bugs out of the new one. And considering, eventually the plan must have been for Super Aguri to become a full fledged "costumer" of Honda Racing, Had the FIA not flippeed on the costomer cars issue, they would have some day been running the exact same equipment, and in all likelyhood, would have seen the Aguri's get the better of the Honda's often during the course of the a whole season (and not just during the start while the A-team gets up to speed with a new chassis)

Valve Bounce

10th May 2008, 11:07

Garry Walker

11th May 2008, 18:59

Yeah, he's really incompetent, getting a team to a Grand Prix in less than 100 days, with 4 year old chassis, and an inept driver (Ide) and still getting within 5 seconds of Ferrari and Renault.
Which was all due to the financial help Honda gave them.

You should be ashamed of that ignorant comment as Super Aguri were a great, Wow, guess what, I am not ashamed in the slightest.

proper team that made the most of what they had, fought and scrapped for all they were worth and made it through over 30 races with little or no help from everyone else. Actually, here is where your "intellectual" analysis goes wrong. SA was completely funded by Honda and completely dependent on them. Honda was the sole reason SA made it to F1 and stayed here for so long.

The sponsors bailed out on them, and now Honda. It's disgraceful how they have been treated.
I will try to explain things to you - Let`s say you lend some guy 5000 pounds for him to start something. All with the promise you are paid back and that once he gets his business running in 2 months, he will stop asking you for money. Then another 5000 pounds a month later. Now, after 2 months he should be happy on his own, but then he comes to you and asks for money again. But you have your own family and business to take care. Will you keep funding him? Probably not. Would you say not funding him is "disgraceful?"
Now multiply those 10000 pounds by about 5000 times.

Anyway, what 'joke' team can score 4 points in the World Championship on merit?
They scored those points due to luck, not on merit or pace.

If I had the money, I'd have bought Super Aguri, but unfortunately I haven't quite got the means to do so.
Judging by your posts on this forum, that would have been quite the sight.

xtlm

14th May 2008, 00:47

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eNGuw7khT98
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RwaicYzTlOE&feature=related

So long, you will be missed

:(

aryan

14th May 2008, 08:53

Stray dogs in Istanbul are a historic problem... Its history goes hand in hand with the history of the republic. During the '60 and the '80s when Turkey had 3 military coups, stray dogs in Istanbul were cited as one of the reasons for the coup, the military regimes of the time promising to eliminate the problem, alas with no results...

Every once in a while, there is a campaign to get rid of them, but usually such plans get axed before they bear fruit...

It was only a matter of time for the Istanbul hounds to get international fame!