Robin Miller slams CCWS AGAIN.....

[ChicagocrewIRL]

http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/42769/


This is getting ridiculous. I think the a lot of times the well being of any entity be it ChampCar, AOWR, or even the U.S. Economy is 80% psychological. You slam something enough or tell people over and over that something is wrong, pretty soon it is.

U.S. recession and ChampCar's demise, two things people keep saying are going to happen so more likey than not, they will happen.

This is Robin Miller's most brutal commentary to date.

[Chaparral66]

http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/42769/


This is getting ridiculous. I think the a lot of times the well being of any entity be it ChampCar, AOWR, or even the U.S. Economy is 80% psychological. You slam something enough or tell people over and over that something is wrong, pretty soon it is.

U.S. recession and ChampCar's demise, two things people keep saying are going to happen so more likey than not, they will happen.

This is Robin Miller's most brutal commentary to date.

Are you kidding? What is brutal about it? Brutal and inaccurate are two very different things. Was there anything factually inaccurate about what he said?

[Champcar4life]

Miller Highlite is full of ***** and then some read this and you tell me what this sounds like.



George scraps offer to help merge series

Tony George: am Indy
The window of opportunity has closed for Champ Car World Series teams to receive Tony George's financial assistance to join the Indy Racing League for 2008, George said Sunday.

George, the IRL's chief executive officer, said that in meetings last fall with Champ Car's leadership, he offered to help its teams pay for IRL cars on the condition they participated in his series for at least two seasons. When none came forward in a timely manner, George chose to scrap his plan.

"Teams started coming to me in December and January, and there's not much I can do at that point," George said. "I needed to know earlier so we could get the cars ordered."

Champ Car co-owner Kevin Kalkhoven said George never formally made an offer to either him or partner Jerry Forsythe.

"I never, ever saw an offer from Tony George," Kalkhoven said. "We never received anything in writing." (See related rumor that we reported as 'false' last week for the same reason)

Champ Car's machines are different from the IRL's and not able to be integrated. George said the two-year stipulation was made because the IRL will introduce new cars for the 2010 season.

"For me to make the investment, it makes sense to do it for two years, not one," George said.

George said his offer came "back when there was time to do it for '08."

The IRL season begins March 29 at Homestead-Miami Speedway. Champ Car's season is scheduled to open April 20 in Long Beach, Calif.

There have been two open-wheel series since George founded the IRL in 1996. Both are based in Indianapolis.

George said he told Kalkhoven and Forsythe in separate meetings that he would help teams acquire a new car and a used one as a backup for each full-season driver supported by a proper budget. He would not have bought the cars outright.

"I wasn't going to wholesale make that offer," George said. "I would make sure they had equipment; it would not necessarily be free."

Forsythe could not be reached for comment. Kalkhoven insisted he hasn't spoken with George "in nine months."

George said he made it clear the IRL would be the sanctioning body in a unified series. He offered to include several of the events that Kalkhoven and Forsythe own, such as the Long Beach (Calif.) Grand Prix, in future IRL schedules.

"I tried to get all those guys to consider not having ownership in the series; rather, they should make their other racing-related businesses a more profitable part of a unified series," George said. "I told them, 'Let us own and operate the series, and we'll make sure everyone is able to transition into equipment for the remainder useful life of the equipment.'

[SoCalPVguy]

Your thread headline is very emotional and misleading. Many on this mesage board would say RM is "telling it like it is "

[weeflyonthewall]

Poor Robin, his forced retirement must be closer than we think. He seems more desperate than those living in Indy.

[Rogelio]

Are you kidding? What is brutal about it? Brutal and inaccurate are two very different things. Was there anything factually inaccurate about what he said?

I agree 100%. How can you call Robin Miller's reporting of the truth brutal? I am a die-hard CART/Champ Car fan who wants our series to survive and prosper. Unfortuantely, year after year the light at the end of the tunnel seems to be fading. Criticizing the Amigos is fair game because many of Champ Car's problems are direct results of their incompetence.

The Amigos might be spending a lot of money on Champ Car. But, that does not necessarily equate that they are trying to improve the product. I hate TG for what he started in 1996. Yet, I am starting to hate the Amigos for failing to deliver a professional racing series that seemed to have potential. The Amigos, like it or dislike it, are not taking our series serious. They are treating Champ Car like a hobby. So what if they are spending a lot of money because they are doing a poor job running this series.

What are the Amigos expecting to win? Perhaps, the IRL is weak and they expect it to capitulate. The IRL may be weak, but their series is certainly stronger than ours. This game of attrition needs to stop. I am against a unified series because I know that Champ Car venues will be lost. Then again, are the Amigos trying to improve the series? Certainly, the rebuilding of Champ Car has been an uphill battle. But, when the Amigos fail to make good decisions, then the uphill battle becomes a mountainous battle.

With each passing day, my interest in Champ Car fades. I am sure that Long Beach will re-energize me, as well as the racing season. After 5 years, I seriously question the Amigos motives.

[BradCA1]

Haas, Walker, Vasser...all CC stalwarts that have publicly said a deal with TG needs to happen. Robin is just reporting what these guys are saying.

How can anyone disagree with RM? What exactly does CC have going for it? Tell me how this series is better off now than it was a few years ago when KK and GF 'came to the rescue.' I can't think of one good reason. There are ZERO sponsors out there for this series, NONE.

CC teams need to take the free cars and engines and go to the IRL, PERIOD. It's for the good of the sport. True, TG hasn't shown that he is capable of running a race series, but have KK and GF?? The last few years show they are even more inept than TG.

[nanders]

Are you kidding? What is brutal about it? Brutal and inaccurate are two very different things. Was there anything factually inaccurate about what he said?

Almost everything is pure speculation and yes there is inaccurate statements.

"Why in the name of Joe Heitzler wouldn't they accept George's gracious offer to give them cars and engines for 2008, plus put five of their key races on the IRL schedule and pay them a sanction fee?"

When was the last time you ever heard a race series pay a promoter a sanction fee? Isn't it the other way around? Yes it is. Robin is rambling just to hear is own brains rattle.

[FerrrariF1]

I see Miller being sued shortly for libel and slander along with Speed Channel.Funny how Miller stated months ago that he wouldn't be covering Champcar any longer yet he continues with his filth. There is no doubt in my mind that he is getting paid under the table for his slanderous remarks.What he fails to report are four main points that were reported in the IndyStar newspaper.#1-George pulled that offer from the table after he did not receive any commitments from any of the teams.#2-The offer was not for new chassis but for one new and one used chassis only after a team would committ to two full seasons and have the equipment on hand to support RL equipment. There was no mention of engines.#3-Walker stated weeks ago that he spoke to George but at the end of the day when he put pen to paper on joining the IRL it was not enough to make the change#4-No offer was put in writing. And KK said that he hasn't spoken personally with George in 9 months and knew of no offer.So again Miller has fabricated most of his story making it look very one sided.This is when Champcar needs to put out a press release refutting most of not all of Miller's statement's. Even George does not agree with most of what Miller wrote.

[Chaparral66]

Almost everything is pure speculation and yes there is inaccurate statements.

"Why in the name of Joe Heitzler wouldn't they accept George's gracious offer to give them cars and engines for 2008, plus put five of their key races on the IRL schedule and pay them a sanction fee?"

When was the last time you ever heard a race series pay a promoter a sanction fee? Isn't it the other way around? Yes it is. Robin is rambling just to hear is own brains rattle.

Is that the best sample you have? Yikes, that's not much. Miller gives the viewpoint of people on both sides: George says he made this offer this past fall, Kalhoven says he never got anything in writing, and hasn't spoken to TG in months. It stands to reason that if George was going to make an offer, it would have to be one that would get the Amigos' attention, whatever it was. But the one thing that is consistent here with past negotiations, is that TG wants total control, which automatically makes me suspicious. Miller said that TG isn't the bad guy anymore, due to the utter incompetence of the Amigos who have squandered CCWS much worse than TG could ever have dreamed. But, as much as TG has done a better job of running the IRL in recent years in comparison to Champ Car, I still don't trust TG with the keys. That, to me, is the only place where Miller's judgement may be lacking.

[Rogelio]

I see Miller being sued shortly for libel and slander along with Speed Channel.Funny how Miller stated months ago that he wouldn't be covering Champcar any longer yet he continues with his filth. There is no doubt in my mind that he is getting paid under the table for his slanderous remarks.What he fails to report are four main points that were reported in the IndyStar newspaper.#1-George pulled that offer from the table after he did not receive any commitments from any of the teams.#2-The offer was not for new chassis but for one new and one used chassis only after a team would committ to two full seasons and have the equipment on hand to support RL equipment. There was no mention of engines.#3-Walker stated weeks ago that he spoke to George but at the end of the day when he put pen to paper on joining the IRL it was not enough to make the change#4-No offer was put in writing. And KK said that he hasn't spoken personally with George in 9 months and knew of no offer.So again Miller has fabricated most of his story making it look very one sided.This is when Champcar needs to put out a press release refutting most of not all of Miller's statement's. Even George does not agree with most of what Miller wrote.

So...Robin Miller fabricated this entire story? Do you expect Champ Car to refute the statements by Miller? Good news or bad news, the Amigos are always silent and behave as if their fans are meager peasants. Whatever the discussions were that took place between TG and the Champ Car teams is evidently happened. Perhaps TG did not "speak" to KK directly but the offer was there.

Other than the fans on this forum, who really cares about AOWR? It amazes me that some on this forum criticize a respected reporter like Miller. Other than Miller, who is a more creible source. He covered AOWR on ESPN (RPM Tonight) and now covers it for Speed. If he is so bad, then why have they not found someone else?

[Chaparral66]

I see Miller being sued shortly for libel and slander along with Speed Channel.Funny how Miller stated months ago that he wouldn't be covering Champcar any longer yet he continues with his filth. There is no doubt in my mind that he is getting paid under the table for his slanderous remarks.What he fails to report are four main points that were reported in the IndyStar newspaper.#1-George pulled that offer from the table after he did not receive any commitments from any of the teams.#2-The offer was not for new chassis but for one new and one used chassis only after a team would committ to two full seasons and have the equipment on hand to support RL equipment. There was no mention of engines.#3-Walker stated weeks ago that he spoke to George but at the end of the day when he put pen to paper on joining the IRL it was not enough to make the change#4-No offer was put in writing. And KK said that he hasn't spoken personally with George in 9 months and knew of no offer.So again Miller has fabricated most of his story making it look very one sided.This is when Champcar needs to put out a press release refutting most of not all of Miller's statement's. Even George does not agree with most of what Miller wrote.

Then why haven't they sued him?

If you'll notice, Miller hasn't recieved many lawsuit threats in recent years, if ever. The Indy Star probably got a variation on this story from different sources than the ones Miller used, which is perefectly reasonable since both sets of sources gave a different set of details. A hotbed story like this has many variables to it, depending on the agenda of the sources (which doesn't matter much as long as they can be verified).

When Miller wrote a column last season about how the Amigos weren't passing along much off season information, hardly any drivers had been signed, and the lack of a schedule until very late, he got much the same reaction from some folks here, usually about how he was so negative.

But he wasn't wrong, was he?

For those of you who like to sit back on your keyboards and accuse Miller of making up stuff and creating all this out of some sort of open wheel fantasy born of yesteryear, consider this: It is obvious from reading Miller and the Indy Star reports that some level of discussions have been taking place off and on for a while, which Fred Nation, VP of Communication at IMS confirmed, but would not go into specifcs, as related by Robin Miller in his first report on this story. That was a defacto confirmation that something had been going on, so that pretty much destroys the speculation that Miller has been making this up. Ridiculous, really. Don't forget, the media is just as competitve as racing and when a story breaks, everybody reaches in trying to grab a piece. For two media outlets to have different details on what is essentially the same story is a daily occurence in journalism. Nothing to get your panties in a twist over.

Miller has way too many contacts in the industry (many of whom, like you and me, are sick of the split and want to see it end) who would be able to tip off Miller if something was happening or about to happen. I mean really, with all the shannanigans of this split of these 13 years, how can you make this stuff up by being a reporter on the sidelines? Fiction is downright dull in comparison to this circus.

Filth? Yeah, right. Hardly anything surprises me about AOWR anymore...

[Sandfly]

Robin is FOS and is speculating and careful to say so.

Tg has visions of talking to other people. I do not believe he has made any serious proposal to any of the amigos.

Why would they EVEN BEGIN to consider joining a SERIES that is full of ***** oval races in nowhere that no body cares about. IRL has a ***** support series. They only have one oval race that matters - and the rest is garbage.

Robin has no where to call home and he is getting desperate. I hate to say it because I thought he liked CC and was just hacked off cause his buddy Shunck got wrongly fired for being his friend -- ( I thought RM was being a stand up guy ) But it looks like RM has gone over the edge, into fantasy land - talking about things the way he might want them to be.

And for AR1 to make the monopoly headline - absolute BS. If anything - put it on the rumors/ opinion page. Mark - you are losing credibility fast.

[FerrrariF1]

So...Robin Miller fabricated this entire story? Do you expect Champ Car to refute the statements by Miller? Good news or bad news, the Amigos are always silent and behave as if their fans are meager peasants. Whatever the discussions were that took place between TG and the Champ Car teams is evidently happened. Perhaps TG did not "speak" to KK directly but the offer was there.

Other than the fans on this forum, who really cares about AOWR? It amazes me that some on this forum criticize a respected reporter like Miller. Other than Miller, who is a more creible source. He covered AOWR on ESPN (RPM Tonight) and now covers it for Speed. If he is so bad, then why have they not found someone else?

Well read the story in Indystar and compare it to the story that Miller wrote. Compare the two and you will see that Miller fabricated most of what he wrote.Read it and get back to me.....the only basic truth in Miller's article is that George made an offer. Outside of that he has the majority of his facts wrong. Read the words directly from George and KK. Now read Miller's so called article. Also read Curt Cavin's comments in his blog and he says "Miller's original article is based on one individual. Indystar will not comment or arite any article from UNKNOWN sources and will wait for comments from the parties involved. Now Indystar waited and provide direct quotes will Miller does not except to basically rip apart the Indystar FACTUAL article and goes off on a tangent.Wonder why? Because Indystar spoke to parties, when didn;t get a comment from certain parties mentioned it in the article. That's called reporting while Miller just ranted and ranted.Bottom line is that Miller has been caught in lies and tabliot journalism. It is Speed's responsibility to look at what Miller wrote and what Indystar wrote and report the reality of the offer.

[Ruben Barrios]

Yeah!!! let's be pissed at Robin Miller... not at the morons who have let the series sink to the bottom... oh yeah!! I forgot... it' never CCWS's fault... It's everyone else... talk about inmature...

[Chaparral66]

Well read the story in Indystar and compare it to the story that Miller wrote. Compare the two and you will see that Miller fabricated most of what he wrote.Read it and get back to me.....the only basic truth in Miller's article is that George made an offer. Outside of that he has the majority of his facts wrong. Read the words directly from George and KK. Now read Miller's so called article. Also read Curt Cavin's comments in his blog and he says "Miller's original article is based on one individual. Indystar will not comment or arite any article from UNKNOWN sources and will wait for comments from the parties involved. Now Indystar waited and provide direct quotes will Miller does not except to basically rip apart the Indystar FACTUAL article and goes off on a tangent.Wonder why? Because Indystar spoke to parties, when didn;t get a comment from certain parties mentioned it in the article. That's called reporting while Miller just ranted and ranted.Bottom line is that Miller has been caught in lies and tabliot journalism. It is Speed's responsibility to look at what Miller wrote and what Indystar wrote and report the reality of the offer.

Just because two reports talked about the same story and got moderately different details doesn't mean one was right and the other wrong. It all depends on the sources and what information they had access to. And it certainly doesn't mean Miller made up anything. If this guy were even half the fabricator you make him out to be, he'd have been found out years ago and basically blacklisted within the journalism community (although that didn't happen to Boston's Mike Barnicle). Using anonymous sources is accepted journalistic practice. If you use such a source, then you must verify the information with other sources to make sure it's valid. they teach you that in high school journalism class.

In his position, Miller simply can't afford to make up stories. He doesn't have many job outlets left to him, writing about open wheel racing, so he has to get it right. Besides, I still haven't seen anyone point to any one thing he said, or any one person he quoted, and explain what was fabricated. Miller, like good reporters always do, give examples and quotes to substaniate the points they make.

I'm still waiting for you to do that.

[Cart750hp]

Poor Robin, his forced retirement must be closer than we think. He seems more desperate than those living in Indy.

And I am not surprised you would prefer to hear Erig Gagnon's work on "this or that" than Robin Miller. I'd rather listen to Huell Howser's "California's Gold" reporting than Eric Gagnon.

"Hey, Louie. Take a shot of that cow over there. Isn't that amazing"?

[FerrrariF1]

Just because two reports talked about the same story and got moderately different details doesn't mean one was right and the other wrong. It all depends on the sources and what information they had access to. And it certainly doesn't mean Miller made up anything. If this guy were even half the fabricator you make him out to be, he'd have been found out years ago and basically blacklisted within the journalism community (although that didn't happen to Boston's Mike Barnicle). Using anonymous sources is accepted journalistic practice. If you use such a source, then you must verify the information with other sources to make sure it's valid. they teach you that in high school journalism class.

In his position, Miller simply can't afford to make up stories. He doesn't have many job outlets left to him, writing about open wheel racing, so he has to get it right. Besides, I still haven't seen anyone point to any one thing he said, or any one person he quoted, and explain what was fabricated. Miller, like good reporters always do, give examples and quotes to substaniate the points they make.

I'm still waiting for you to do that.

Well AR1 just posted another story from Autoweek that BACKS UP Indystar version and puts a HUGE HOLE in Miller's story. Again as reported in Autoweek the offer was not made to Champcar but to Champcar owners. There was NO mention of free engines and only ASSISTANCE in aquiring one new chassis and one used chassis. George as stated that his offer was not a full boat payment of chassis and it required a two year commitment from the teams. Again Miller only got one point correct which was George made an offer and the rest of his article was pure fabricated BS. IndyStar and Autoweek has direct comments from the principals while Miller does not.Read George's words as well as KK comments and it was obvious that he was trying to poach teams to fill his field. He has lost Dario, Hornish, he isn;t going to support four cars with his Vision team and Rahal as well as D&R are down to one car. His 1.2 mil per car plus an offer to help to buy one car as well as one used car did not cut the mustard. No doubt Miller's rant today was due to the fact that he was caught writing and reporting false information. Why did George not make the offer to GF and KK? Why did he not put it in writing? George doesn't back up Miller's statements nor does KK.If you actually read Miller's two stories and match it up to Indystar and Autoweek it is quite obvious Miller's personal agenda against Champcar and how he continues to STRETCH the truth in order to support his personal agenda. Miller has made this personal.

[Chaparral66]

Well AR1 just posted another story from Autoweek that BACKS UP Indystar version and puts a HUGE HOLE in Miller's story. Again as reported in Autoweek the offer was not made to Champcar but to Champcar owners. There was NO mention of free engines and only ASSISTANCE in aquiring one new chassis and one used chassis. George as stated that his offer was not a full boat payment of chassis and it required a two year commitment from the teams. Again Miller only got one point correct which was George made an offer and the rest of his article was pure fabricated BS. IndyStar and Autoweek has direct comments from the principals while Miller does not.Read George's words as well as KK comments and it was obvious that he was trying to poach teams to fill his field. He has lost Dario, Hornish, he isn;t going to support four cars with his Vision team and Rahal as well as D&R are down to one car. His 1.2 mil per car plus an offer to help to buy one car as well as one used car did not cut the mustard. No doubt Miller's rant today was due to the fact that he was caught writing and reporting false information. Why did George not make the offer to GF and KK? Why did he not put it in writing? George doesn't back up Miller's statements nor does KK.If you actually read Miller's two stories and match it up to Indystar and Autoweek it is quite obvious Miller's personal agenda against Champcar and how he continues to STRETCH the truth in order to support his personal agenda. Miller has made this personal.

OK, so Miller, who got a tip form his inside sources about this approach for TG, didn't get the all of the facts. That happens. Obviously, TG wanted to keep this secret and didn't want the media getting its hooks in it before they had something they could all agree on. He worked to keep this under wraps while the offer was being made, so it doesn't surprise me that Miller didn't get the entire picture of what was going on at first glance. Does that mean Miller LIED? Does that mean he deliberately wanted to decieve his readers? That's where you lose me.

When Watergate broke out back in 1972, facts were very sketchy at the time, and the White House vehemently denied reports by Woodward & Bernstein in the Washington Post, accusing W & B of fabricating, agenda, all kinds of things thast you are accusing Miller of doing now. Denials by the White House put loads of pressure on the Post but they were eventually vindicated by the dogged reporting of Woodward & Bernstein. Maybe they didn't every singl;e fact exactly right, but they never LIED.

As the parties begin to acknowledge, as they now must, due to Miller's report, that something did happen, the details will begin to become more clear. Miller is certainly not one of TG's favorite reporters right now, even though Miller did call him asking for comment, and TG didn't get back to him. The Indy Star picked up on this story, and it's entirely possible that current Indy Star reporters have better sources than Miller does at this time, and had access to better information.

Like I've been saying, this happens everyday in the media. But does that mean that Miller LIED? No. He, like every other good reporter uses the best sources he has access to, verifies what they tell him, and goes with it. You show me a passage in his story where you think he deliberately lied about something.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Correct headline: Miller slams CCWS owners.

[Ice Man]

Champ Car is done.It's just a matter of playing out the end-game.Anyone who can't see it or smell it is out of touch with reality.It really didn't have to end this way but it's nobody's fault but there's.They had a chance to save themselves Money,Time,Head aches,and what little credibility they had left.

BUT NO lets have another year of false promises and heart ache.Even if you don't plan on watching the IRL you have to agree this has to end.And don't give me that "your with or against us" BS because that is not fair.I loved the CCWS(CART more)and really wanted it to go places like it's father CART.But that my friends is NEVER going to happen so don't look for it.

People like RM understand the truth but the fanatics just bash him and ignore the truth.The very people that said they where fans did as much destruction as the amigos.Some fans.

But whats done is done and that reality will hit fanatics by mid season.

What a tragic end to such a great series. :(

[seppefan]

Correct headline: Miller slams CCWS owners.

or maybe :

Miller slams three CCWS owners.

++++

KK needs to take over or get out. PG & DP for different reason are a joke and GF is not really there it seems. KK cannot operate unless he gets out of his handcuffs.

Sadly once again Miller is 100% right. Oh dear, grown men screwing it up in public.

[Claus Hansen]

Hmmm... One series is better than 2, yes, but what everybody needs is sponsors, and more manufactors to reduce engine lease, would we get that whit one series, dont think so, so in 2 years time, it would back to a feild of 21 - 22 cars in one series... What have we gained with that ?

[heelntoe]

Hmmm... One series is better than 2, yes, but what everybody needs is sponsors, and more manufactors to reduce engine lease, would we get that whit one series, dont think so, so in 2 years time, it would back to a feild of 21 - 22 cars in one series... What have we gained with that ?

Actually, whenever there's market confusion, it makes it more difficult to gain sponsorship. In this case, there is definitely confusion that has resulted in difficulty for CCWS because most people on the street, when asked about Champcar, respond "what's that, or is that the series that races at the Indy 500? or is that the series where that girl drives". Also in this case, there has been a tremendous amount of press over the years about the split, the infighting, etc., so when you get a new prospect that's even considering it, if they're credible, they'll do due diligence and find that the sport has taken many hits and that the ROI is not that great. But, if you can get Rahal's battling Andretti's battling Paul Tracy's battling some chick, then that can work towards gaining momentum...ONLY IF YOU HAVE REALLY SMART MARKETING PEOPLE WORKING FOR YOU, NOT GENE SIMMONS!!! At IMG, we wrote off both US open wheel series a while back other than promoting the Aussie race. Agency's like IMG and Octagon prefer to have personalities to be able to sell and this is a strategy that neither CCWS or the IRL seem to understand.

[nanders]

Almost everything is pure speculation and yes there is inaccurate statements.

"Why in the name of Joe Heitzler wouldn't they accept George's gracious offer to give them cars and engines for 2008, plus put five of their key races on the IRL schedule and pay them a sanction fee?"

When was the last time you ever heard a race series pay a promoter a sanction fee? Isn't it the other way around? Yes it is. Robin is rambling just to hear is own brains rattle.

Robin made up the sanctioning fee thing. It proves that he is quite capable of making stuff up. If he can make that up, how much can you believe of this last article which smacks of heavy speculation.

MarkC has his inside CCWS sources and he has also been very critical of them. I'm thinking he wouldn't be debunking all this speculation right now if there was much truth to it. As of late, he has taken to exposing CCWS when they screw the pooch.

I believe Kalkhoven is a unification guy. He doesn't have the hate built up like Jerry does. Why wouldn't Kevin tell the truth on this?

[sanguin]

Well AR1 just posted another story from Autoweek that BACKS UP Indystar version and puts a HUGE HOLE in Miller's story. Again as reported in Autoweek the offer was not made to Champcar but to Champcar owners. There was NO mention of free engines and only ASSISTANCE in aquiring one new chassis and one used chassis. George as stated that his offer was not a full boat payment of chassis and it required a two year commitment from the teams. Again Miller only got one point correct which was George made an offer and the rest of his article was pure fabricated BS. IndyStar and Autoweek has direct comments from the principals while Miller does not.Read George's words as well as KK comments and it was obvious that he was trying to poach teams to fill his field. He has lost Dario, Hornish, he isn;t going to support four cars with his Vision team and Rahal as well as D&R are down to one car. His 1.2 mil per car plus an offer to help to buy one car as well as one used car did not cut the mustard. No doubt Miller's rant today was due to the fact that he was caught writing and reporting false information. Why did George not make the offer to GF and KK? Why did he not put it in writing? George doesn't back up Miller's statements nor does KK.If you actually read Miller's two stories and match it up to Indystar and Autoweek it is quite obvious Miller's personal agenda against Champcar and how he continues to STRETCH the truth in order to support his personal agenda. Miller has made this personal.

Exactly, TG is looking at spending millions for 2008 to keep the IRL together and fill the field at Indy. It's no wonder he was desperate to bribe some teams from CC to come over.

RM may have a source but he's been played. Every year at this time merger stories appear before the Indy. Turns out there really is nothing there.

[garyshell]

OK, so Miller, who got a tip form his inside sources about this approach for TG, didn't get the all of the facts. That happens.

And obviously Robin didn't vet these "facts" with other sources as his high school journalism class SHOULD have taught him.



He, like every other good reporter uses the best sources he has access to, verifies what they tell him, and goes with it.

Good reporters verify their annonymous sources, usually with more than one backup. Enough said.

I am not suggesting Robin made anything up, as others here are. I am suggesting, however, he did a damn sloppy job.

Gary

[heelntoe]

Robin made up the sanctioning fee thing. It proves that he is quite capable of making stuff up. If he can make that up, how much can you believe of this last article which smacks of heavy speculation.

MarkC has his inside CCWS sources and he has also been very critical of them. I'm thinking he wouldn't be debunking all this speculation right now if there was much truth to it. As of late, he has taken to exposing CCWS when they screw the pooch.

I believe Kalkhoven is a unification guy. He doesn't have the hate built up like Jerry does. Why wouldn't Kevin tell the truth on this?

Sorry, but respectfully, a few things need to be addressed. The sanction "fee" thing was simply a counter to the notion of acquiring the races owned by KK/GF (i.e. the $100 million over ten years deal GF thought he could get), as TG was never going to buy any races on those terms. Yes, there's speculation, because all of these guys are playing people they want or need to. As far as Mark's inside info, most of it has been via PG and, well, that's always subject to interpretation. Lastly, Kevin is, first and foremost, a deal guy. he thought this deal would turn out very different for him and he's now having a come-to-jesus moment with himself. He doesn't have the same hate, but he REALLY doesn't have the ability to be humble either. He detests the idea of looking bad and at this juncture, he's in a very difficult place to come out of this thing looking good.

[Rogelio]

And obviously Robin didn't vet these "facts" with other sources as his high school journalism class SHOULD have taught him.




Good reporters verify their annonymous sources, usually with more than one backup. Enough said.

I am not suggesting Robin made anything up, as others here are. I am suggesting, however, he did a damn sloppy job.

Gary

Even if Robin Miller did a sloppy job, the point is the "events" transpired. After years of professional journalism, I can not imagine that Miller would just make up facts so that he could put together a story. Other than the fans on this forum and the few AOWR fans, who really cares about open wheel racing? Miller dug for sources and put together his story.

Remember, Clinton did not have sexual relations and there are WMD in Iraq but we just can not find them.

The truth is, Miller reported on a development that took place. Who said, he said, they said, I did not say are all pieces of the puzzle/denial? Every story has different forms of interpretation. I read the LA Times on a daily basis and I know that other opinions exist. This is Miller's version of the events and I would surely love to see the other version.

I am still waiting for news on the WMD.

[cartpix]

Almost everything is pure speculation and yes there is inaccurate statements.

"Why in the name of Joe Heitzler wouldn't they accept George's gracious offer to give them cars and engines for 2008, plus put five of their key races on the IRL schedule and pay them a sanction fee?"

When was the last time you ever heard a race series pay a promoter a sanction fee? Isn't it the other way around? Yes it is. Robin is rambling just to hear is own brains rattle.


I have never heard of a series pay a sanction fee, but that doesn't mean that they can't. Maybe it was to sweeten the deal. I'm just saying...

Jeff

[nanders]

Sorry, but respectfully, a few things need to be addressed. The sanction "fee" thing was simply a counter to the notion of acquiring the races owned by KK/GF (i.e. the $100 million over ten years deal GF thought he could get), as TG was never going to buy any races on those terms. Yes, there's speculation, because all of these guys are playing people they want or need to. As far as Mark's inside info, most of it has been via PG and, well, that's always subject to interpretation. Lastly, Kevin is, first and foremost, a deal guy. he thought this deal would turn out very different for him and he's now having a come-to-jesus moment with himself. He doesn't have the same hate, but he REALLY doesn't have the ability to be humble either. He detests the idea of looking bad and at this juncture, he's in a very difficult place to come out of this thing looking good.

Heel, I agree with most of the things I read by you however you've written a whole post of speculation here.


The sanction "fee" thing was simply a counter to the notion of acquiring the races owned by KK/GF (i.e. the $100 million over ten years deal GF thought he could get), as TG was never going to buy any races on those terms.

Since when has a "race promoter ever been paid a sanctioning fee?" Never. Promoters pay sanctioning fees to the series they bring to their tracks, right?


George said he made it clear the IRL would be the sanctioning body in a unified series. He offered to include several of the events that Kalkhoven and Forsythe own, such as the Long Beach (Calif.) Grand Prix, in future IRL schedules.

"I tried to get all those guys to consider not having ownership in the series]

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080128/SPORTS0107/801280351/1052/SPORTS01

I'm pretty sure this implies that KK and GF could bring their races in and try to make a go of it. So unless you have an inside source that you are not quoting I've got to call "speculation" on you.


As far as Mark's inside info, most of it has been via PG and, well, that's always subject to interpretation.

Speculation


Lastly, Kevin is, first and foremost, a deal guy. he thought this deal would turn out very different for him and he's now having a come-to-jesus moment with himself. He doesn't have the same hate, but he REALLY doesn't have the ability to be humble either. He detests the idea of looking bad and at this juncture, he's in a very difficult place to come out of this thing looking good.

Yes Kevin should come forward and make his position clear. Which he probably did 2 years ago with TG when they were skiing. Deal guys win some and lose some. I'm thinking that Kalkhoven has less to lose on this deal then GF does. So Kevin is probably up for making a deal right now because, if a combined series can gain synergy he can recoup much of his loses from his successful events. Maybe even his team can make a profit somewhere down the line. It appears the CCWS stakeholders position is weak in any kind of present unification scenario so they have to either wait for their position to improve by Indy having to struggle or go ahead and cut their loses. I'm thinking Tony will never ever give up control so the best they can hope for is a buy out ..... maybe they can wear Tony down where he makes an offer for the CCWS assets.

So we have to satisfy GF's financial concerns plus the teams because of their investments in the cars, so it seems like the best time to really consider a consolidation would be 2010. And this is just too long for Miller so he's thinking he can make things happen. However, when this deal is done Miller will be just a seedy little footnote in the whole deal. And that's speculation on my part.

[cartpix]

I see Miller being sued shortly for libel and slander along with Speed Channel.Funny how Miller stated months ago that he wouldn't be covering Champcar any longer yet he continues with his filth. There is no doubt in my mind that he is getting paid under the table for his slanderous remarks.What he fails to report are four main points that were reported in the IndyStar newspaper.#1-George pulled that offer from the table after he did not receive any commitments from any of the teams.#2-The offer was not for new chassis but for one new and one used chassis only after a team would committ to two full seasons and have the equipment on hand to support RL equipment. There was no mention of engines.#3-Walker stated weeks ago that he spoke to George but at the end of the day when he put pen to paper on joining the IRL it was not enough to make the change#4-No offer was put in writing. And KK said that he hasn't spoken personally with George in 9 months and knew of no offer.So again Miller has fabricated most of his story making it look very one sided.This is when Champcar needs to put out a press release refutting most of not all of Miller's statement's. Even George does not agree with most of what Miller wrote.

Do you believe everything you read. Funny how nobody believes Tony George, until now. How do you know he was telling the truth? How do you know he wasn't just saving face? He didn't want to look like he was offering the world, to teams, to lure them away, thus killing Champ Car. How do you know he wasn't just trying to make Robin Miller look bad? Pom Poms clouding your vision. Oh yeah, where are these Champ Car lawyers, just chomping at the bit, to sue Miller? Where is Champ Car saying it ain't true? Sure, KK said he hasn't talked to TG in 9 months. Maybe TG didn't talk to KK about this.

Oh yeah, I forgot, Robin has an axe to grind, with Champ Car. Pointing out the obvious sure gets that done.

Jeff

[Cart750hp]

Exactly, TG is looking at spending millions for 2008 to keep the IRL together and fill the field at Indy.

...and don't you think that's what a series owners suppose do?


It's no wonder he was desperate to bribe some teams from CC to come over.

...it's called business. It would be bad if he paid them to go to IRL and eventually none showed up. But they did, right? And this time, it looks like more are heading to IRL, sanguin. So KK/GF should sit around and do nothing? You better not be the next owner of CC.


RM may have a source but he's been played. Every year at this time merger stories appear before the Indy. Turns out there really is nothing there.

RM tells a story like this every year because it's getting worse and worse every year. The criticism alone will all go back to the series owners of both series. Don't kid yourself that RM is not being fair to both series. CC brought these crap to themselves and forums on the net all know this. IRL on the other hand had more criticism than CC, I tell you that (well, I know you ignored that one).

BTW, your criticism to RM is too obvious for us, here. We know that you don't believe what RM is saying because you, my friend, is a one sided fanatic. You don't need to read anything outside CC's website news because no news will be on your side except Eric Gagnon's this or that. Are you ok with that?

[Chaparral66]

And obviously Robin didn't vet these "facts" with other sources as his high school journalism class SHOULD have taught him.

Obviously? How do you know he didn't?


Good reporters verify their annonymous sources, usually with more than one backup. Enough said.

Again, how do you know he didn't? How many people work under the umbrella of the IRL and IMS? That's a whole lot of people to choose from when trying to establish sources, even from within the inner circle of both groups.

I am not suggesting Robin made anything up, as others here are. I am suggesting, however, he did a damn sloppy job.

Gary

That's certainly debatable, at the very least. Miller includes quotes from people he talked to, and even some of those people couldn't agree (at that time) what was going on or had happened previously. Once the story gets out, then there is a concerted effort to get the story straight on the part of the people and organizations involved.

Kalkhoven and Tony George still can't agree on who said what to whom and when, something that both the Miller and Indy Star reports both establish equally.

One thing is certainly clear: contact between Champ Car and the IRL had been going or sporadically at some level and an offer was made of some kind. Just trying to get a good gist on what the offer was can be a very aggrevating ordeal in and of itself, so don't be surprised if those details are sketchy in the first reports of the story, the first of which was Robin's. As for the honesty of Our Good Friend Tony George, I completely defer to cartpix's most recent and excellent post on this thread.

[Chaparral66]

...and don't you think that's what a series owners suppose do?



...it's called business. It would be bad if he paid them to go to IRL and eventually none showed up. But they did, right? And this time, it looks like more are heading to IRL, sanguin. So KK/GF should sit around and do nothing? You better not be the next owner of CC.



RM tells a story like this every year because it's getting worse and worse every year. The criticism alone will all go back to the series owners of both series. Don't kid yourself that RM is not being fair to both series. CC brought these crap to themselves and forums on the net all know this. IRL on the other hand had more criticism than CC, I tell you that (well, I know you ignored that one).

BTW, your criticism to RM is too obvious for us, here. We know that you don't believe what RM is saying because you, my friend, is a one sided fanatic. You don't need to read anything outside CC's website news because no news will be on your side except Eric Gagnon's this or that. Are you ok with that?

Thanks for bringing some much needed good ol' common sense, Cart750.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I read Miller's take with great interest. Here it is in a nutshell: Believe who you want as the "bad guy", but the undeniable fact is if the CCWS is making money the way Sanguin and his ilk have felt, no teams are taking Tony up on his offer and Miller is saying what a boob Tony is for thinking he could get the assets of CCWS that easily.

When Miller was trashing Tony George every week in his Indy Star column, or writing for CCWS on their website, none of his ardent detractors where likely complaining. It isn't the guy, it is the message they don't like because Miller wont pull punches.

I am like Chapparal in that I don't like or trust Tony George, but you know what? CCWS had my heart, loyalty and soul when they started and they have dumped on all of this and put it in the toilet. I trust Gerry Forsythe and the like LESS for the mess they have made of Open Wheeled racing. When Carl Haas and Paul Newman are talking to Tony, the game is over people.

Some of you can quibble about some of the details of Miller's column, but unless he is sued for slander spare me the BS about his lies. Typical of you guys, you want to shoot the messenger rather than deal with the reality. The reality is the merger should have been years ago. There is enough sponsors, fans goodwill or anything else to support two healthy OW racing series. There may be not enough left for one, but I for one have reached a point where I don't have the faith to follow the leadership of CCWS blindly. For a bunch of smart successful businessmen to make such a mess of a great series, it behooves me to think Maybe Tony isn't so stupid after all.

Robin put it best. The IMS is Boardwalk and Park Place in this game of monopoly, and the Amigo's keep landing on it........

[Mark in Oshawa]

whoops...I meant there is NOT enough sponsors ETC. for two series......

[Chaparral66]

I agree for the most part. I just want to be emphatic that as bad as it is in CCWS right now, I am not yet at the point where I'm willing to choose the lesser of two evils. The Amigos shouldn't just dive into this, and they haven't, thankfully. As I have said on this and other threads, NEVER take the first offer, and everything is negotiable. If TG gave an ultimatum with this deal, that's enough for me to tell The Amigos to step away from the chicane, and come up with a counter offer...

[Rogelio]

I agree for the most part. I just want to be emphatic that as bad as it is in CCWS right now, I am not yet at the point where I'm willing to choose the lesser of two evils. The Amigos shouldn't just dive into this, and they haven't, thankfully. As I have said on this and other threads, NEVER take the first offer, and everything is negotiable. If TG gave an ultimatum with this deal, that's enough for me to tell The Amigos to step away from the chicane, and come up with a counter offer...

When Miller first reported these discussions, I seriously thougt that a merger was on the horizon and thought this is an opportunity that Champ Car should not let pass by. I hate seeing Champ Car limping around year after year. However, had the Amigos "gave in" to TG, it would have been a win-win situation for TG. Champ Car and its fans would have been screwed, except for a few races.

What is the happy median? Only time will tell. In the meantime, if Champ Car regains some momentum this year, they will go to the bargaining table with TG with a little bit more amunition. The IRL is not in the greatest shape either.

[namarow]

Miller is bang on again for the most part. CC is F'd in a big way.
They have pushed the loyal fans out the door.

This thing is a car wreck, and I can't stop wathcing. Touble is, it is my best friend who who is the victim.

[Cart750hp]

Touble is, it is my best friend who who is the victim.

Namarow, there is no victim. The employees probably be the first one to be affected but not a victim. CC or IRL didn't put a gun on their head to be associated so it's the individual's decision is to blame. I've been so stressing this issue that IRL and CC are business organizations and not a public assistance for Open Wheel fans. I'm sorry to say but whoever feels they are a victim of these two, they are out of their minds. Both series doesn't owe anyone and so anyone doesn't owe anything to the series. I pay my ticket when I go watch the race because I don't have any rights to the series. I paid for my RD (I used to) because I don't have any rights for a free RD. For any employees who are working for the series, or for any team including the drivers, they have a choice to leave and find a better one. Staying in the same bad environment because you like the series is a personal choice. When your series turn their back on you because they find someone better than you or you are no longer a use for them, they will ask you to leave. It's all business. No victim, just personal choice. And when that choice didn't pay back, don't feel your workplace is obligated for your own choice. Just my opinion, of course.

[Chaparral66]

Namarow, there is no victim. The employees probably be the first one to be affected but not a victim. CC or IRL didn't put a gun on their head to be associated so it's the individual's decision is to blame. I've been so stressing this issue that IRL and CC are business organizations and not a public assistance for Open Wheel fans. I'm sorry to say but whoever feels they are a victim of these two, they are out of their minds. Both series doesn't owe anyone and so anyone doesn't owe anything to the series. I pay my ticket when I go watch the race because I don't have any rights to the series. I paid for my RD (I used to) because I don't have any rights for a free RD. For any employees who are working for the series, or for any team including the drivers, they have a choice to leave and find a better one. Staying in the same bad environment because you like the series is a personal choice. When your series turn their back on you because they find someone better than you or you are no longer a use for them, they will ask you to leave. It's all business. No victim, just personal choice. And when that choice didn't pay back, don't feel your workplace is obligated for your own choice. Just my opinion, of course.

Three very thought provoking posts. Bravo. The way it should be.

Cart750, the only area I would think differently from you on this is that as fans who pay good money to attend races, a racing series, like any sport, is obligated to give us a good show, so we can feel good we have spent our money wisely and got a good bang for the buck, as it were. Purely on that score, the two series have continued to let us down for 13 years and shows no immediate signs of getting better. The undeniable fact that open wheel is losing its audience is a strong message that The Amigos and TG should have taken seriously a long time ago. What do the fans want? An end to the politics, and everyone racing together. Sure, we all continue to go, and it is our choice, but that doesn't mean we aren't dissapointed on occasion and have a right to continue to demand better from the two series. Both Champ car and The IRL are capable of giving good to even great racing at times, but we all want to see everyone at the same track. On this level they have both failed us. Despite our open wheel partisanship, we all want to see everyone in AOWR at Indy and throughout the season banging wheels together. I think on that matter, everyone here and in the IRL forums can agree, after 13 years of fruitless conflict.

The only winner in the open wheel war is NASCAR. The loser (victim, whatever) has been the fans. At the end of the day, the owners can go home and sulk in their million dollar mansions and yachts, or go to Europe, the Carribean, or Antartica.

[Cart750hp]

Cart750, the only area I would think differently from you on this is that as fans who pay good money to attend races, a racing series, like any sport, is obligated to give us a good show, so we can feel good we have spent our money wisely and got a good bang for the buck, as it were.

Actually, Chaparral66, the series is not obligated to put on a good show just because you paid a ticket. The ticket entitles you to enter or an admission or a privilege to watch the race. Whatever the outcome of the race, either nice race or not, it's not guaranteed and not a part of the ticket you bought. This is the same thing as going to go watch a movie. You paid a ticket to watch and to enter the property. But the outcome of the movie would be your own opinion. Another example would be going to Staples Center to go watch a Laker game. You paid the ticket to go see the Lakers and whatever the outcome of the game is, it's not a part of the ticket you bought. This is what I mean, personal choice. Us as fans, are only here as a choice. We like what we see, we do whatever it takes to keep it. But when the series isn't providing me or the standards of what I used to see is gone, it's entirely up to me to stay or to find another. The same thing as the employees in CC or any business organization.

[garyshell]

Actually, Chaparral66, the series is not obligated to put on a good show just because you paid a ticket. The ticket entitles you to enter or an admission or a privilege to watch the race.

While that is TECHNICALLY true, it ignores one important point. The series has a fiduciary responsibility to its owners or shareholders to insure that the customers do come back. So, while they may not be DIRECTLY obligated to the customers to put on a good show, they are INDIRECTLY obligated if they expect the customers to return.

My business model above really addresses the TV customers, in the case of the customers attending the race there is another tier to the model. The series customer in that case is the promoter and the fans become a tier 2 customer. But the indirect "obligations" remain the same.

Gary

[Chaparral66]

While that is TECHNICALLY true, it ignores one important point. The series has a fiduciary responsibility to its owners or shareholders to insure that the customers do come back. So, while they may not be DIRECTLY obligated to the customers to put on a good show, they are INDIRECTLY obligated if they expect the customers to return.

My business model above really addresses the TV customers, in the case of the customers attending the race there is another tier to the model. The series customer in that case is the promoter and the fans become a tier 2 customer. But the indirect "obligations" remain the same.

Gary

What he said. Cart750, no one is saying the series is legally required to put on a good show, that's silly. You can't legislate quality. My point was, echoed by Gary, is that the series is morally obligated to put on a good show. It's just good business and a cardinal rule of any aspect of the entertainment business. Put on a good show, people will come back. If you don't, they won't. Fans have been sending this message to both Champ Car and the IRL for years now and both have thusfar refused to take the hint. There have been some attempts to resolve the split, but no one yet has made a sacrifice that would make middle ground easier to achieve. This last offer by TG is nowhere near that, and rings hollow.

[Cart750hp]

Chapparral66, you are talking to different things here, now. Let me try to respond to each:

The first one, you are looking at it as an audience's perspective:


Cart750, the only area I would think differently from you on this is that as fans who pay good money to attend races, a racing series, like any sport, is obligated to give us a good show, so we can feel good we have spent our money wisely and got a good bang for the buck, as it were.

If you buy a ticket, that's only for the entrance and admission. Yes, you probably sort to have an idea to what you're about to go see. But that ticket you purchased isn't guaranteeing it'll satisfy you or not. People tend to have a different views or opinion on things.

The second post, it's about the business side:


What he said. Cart750, no one is saying the series is legally required to put on a good show, that's silly. You can't legislate quality. My point was, echoed by Gary, is that the series is morally obligated to put on a good show.

The business who is putting up the show and the venue who's being paid by the show isn't obligated (not legally or legally but financially) to put up a good or bad show but a show. If a business put up a good show and people who paid the ticket (above) enjoyed the show then the venue and the business who put up the show are more likely to come back. But if it turned out to be a disaster, well, the venue will stay but the business who put up a disaster show won't. So, to answer your question: If a business don't have a very good quality of product, people don't come buy it anymore. But if a product is worth it, people will buy it. That decision will be entirely up to the management. Is CC management doing that? Not in the past 4 years. Is CC obligated to put up a good show? Hell no. They are not obligated to put up a good show but CC tend to had a good show itself.

Both are two different things, Chaparral66.

[Chaparral66]

Chapparral66, you are talking to different things here, now. Let me try to respond to each:

The first one, you are looking at it as an audience's perspective:



If you buy a ticket, that's only for the entrance and admission. Yes, you probably sort to have an idea to what you're about to go see. But that ticket you purchased isn't guaranteeing it'll satisfy you or not. People tend to have a different views or opinion on things.

The second post, it's about the business side:


The business who is putting up the show and the venue who's being paid by the show isn't obligated (not legally or legally but financially) to put up a good or bad show but a show. If a business put up a good show and people who paid the ticket (above) enjoyed the show then the venue and the business who put up the show are more likely to come back. But if it turned out to be a disaster, well, the venue will stay but the business who put up a disaster show won't. So, to answer your question: If a business don't have a very good quality of product, people don't come buy it anymore. But if a product is worth it, people will buy it. That decision will be entirely up to the management. Is CC management doing that? Not in the past 4 years. Is CC obligated to put up a good show? Hell no. They are not obligated to put up a good show but CC tend to had a good show itself.

Both are two different things, Chaparral66.

No, they're not. You can't seperate the business aspect from the entertainment aspect. The success of the business depends on the quality of the entertainment, and people coming back for more. One is not incidental to the other. I think both Garyshell and I did a decent job of explaining this, but I'll try once more. And by the way, my perspective on this is not just the audience's view, it is a business view, in fact, more from the business manager's view. Because that is the view you have to have if your business, in this case, putting on races, is to succeed.

When CART was in business, the sport had all competitors under one roof up through 1995. In this case, the sport was putting out the best product it was capable of, and the fans knew it, and the series was successful. When the sport split into two parts, the sport was not putting out it's best product; in other words, the sport of open wheel racing here in North America was not able to have all the best competitors on the same track at the same time. What that means very simply, is that the fans were not getting their money's worth. And in these last 13 years, we all have seen continuous drop off of fans, dying TV ratings, and apathy from the sports media, save for the Indy 500.

That's as loud and clear a message as anyone in or out of the sport can send. And once again, this is a case where if the entertainment value doesn't match up with expectation of the consumer, the enterprise dies. Open wheel racing is just as morally obligated to put on the best show possible, just like NASCAR does, or any entertainment industry you can name, be it movies, live theatre, or music concerts.

Cart750: If you buy a ticket, that's only for the entrance and admission. Yes, you probably sort to have an idea to what you're about to go see. But that ticket you purchased isn't guaranteeing it'll satisfy you or not. People tend to have a different views or opinion on things.

That's true, just buying a ticket doesn't guarantee a good show. It's not supposed to. And as we have said, there is no legal precedent that makes it that way. Not even an issue. Now what does a notion like that have on a customer who's paid some $50-200 for 1-2 tickets to see a race in a sport that has become a shell of its former self? In a sport that used to have 26-30 car counts, now finds itself barely able to hold 18 (in either series), a customer might feel cheated. You going to tell him otherwise, after he's spent his money? You think saying to him, "there was no guarantee you'd be satisfied" is going to quell his dissappointment? Don't bet on it...the paying customer has every right to expect the best show possible for his hard earned cash. Open wheel has let him dowm. NASCAR hasn't.

[Chaparral66]

Fans don't arbitrarily buy a ticket to some random event and hope for the best. They buy a ticket to see a specific event, and have a reasonable expectation to get their money's worth. On this score, the sport of open wheel racing, as practiced by the two warring factions, Champ Car and the IRL, has failed its fans; and the fans, by dropping off year after year along with tanking TV ratings, have made their position known. Maybe that's the best the two series can do, but the fans are saying, it's not good enough. That explains the rush of fans' hope and media interest everytime the possibility of a merger happens. Everytime those hopes are dashed, the sport falls that much more.

The failure of the sport to recover and get back it's fan base must reside with the owners of Champ Car and the IRL, who have collectively put out so inferior a product as to drive the fans away. Until they realize that, open wheel will continue to decline. The way to stop it, of course, is to end the split. Then in one felt swoop, you've sent a message to all open wheel fans that by unifying, you want to give them the best show possible. In effect, to give the customers their money's worth. This is why you can't seperate the business aspect from the entertainment value. They are inseperable. The sport won't recover until The Amigos and Tony George realize that.

[Sandfly]

You guys talk about the "fans" like they are a homogenous group that all want the same thing. I do not think so. The fan base is split into those that like the IRL cars on ovals and a coupla road courses,,,, and those that could care less about high speed ovals and prefer road and street races in a turbo that is easy on the eye,,,, and OK lets say there are still a few who would still like to see some death match races at superspeedways.

There are probably more combinations of interests than I could list. I do not see that diverse group coming together to be happy in the plan rumored by TG and RM in an attempt to get cars for the big Race.

Not sure that I have any right to demand a certain type of series, just that I do not care to support an oval centric OW race series. I think we are all looking for different things, and there is certainly no indication that TG is better equiped to provide "my" kinda racing than the CC folks - who are giving me the kind of racing I like.

From a business standpoint - the two division concept is one that could work to both -- improve sponsor opportunities in both divisions--- and Increase the car count and competition at Indy. The process could be gradual and use attrition of weak events to avoid legal entanglements with existing venues. An equivilancy formula could work for a while, then evolve into a set of engine /chassis guidlines that would further work to increase manufacturer interest and unity between divisions. Yet- TG will have complete control of his series and his speedway,,,, but not all of open wheel racing. And there is the rub. Tire smoke/fender rubbin' problem.

Could work well --with lots of racing for all the different types of OW "fans". But only if TG gives up wanting to be the King of american OW.

[Cart750hp]

You guys talk about the "fans" like they are a homogenous group that all want the same thing. I do not think so. The fan base is split into those that like the IRL cars on ovals and a coupla road courses,,,, and those that could care less about high speed ovals and prefer road and street races in a turbo that is easy on the eye,,,, and OK lets say there are still a few who would still like to see some death match races at superspeedways.

There are probably more combinations of interests than I could list. I do not see that diverse group coming together to be happy in the plan rumored by TG and RM in an attempt to get cars for the big Race.

Not sure that I have any right to demand a certain type of series, just that I do not care to support an oval centric OW race series. I think we are all looking for different things, and there is certainly no indication that TG is better equiped to provide "my" kinda racing than the CC folks - who are giving me the kind of racing I like.

From a business standpoint - the two division concept is one that could work to both -- improve sponsor opportunities in both divisions--- and Increase the car count and competition at Indy. The process could be gradual and use attrition of weak events to avoid legal entanglements with existing venues. An equivilancy formula could work for a while, then evolve into a set of engine /chassis guidlines that would further work to increase manufacturer interest and unity between divisions. Yet- TG will have complete control of his series and his speedway,,,, but not all of open wheel racing. And there is the rub. Tire smoke/fender rubbin' problem.

Could work well --with lots of racing for all the different types of OW "fans". But only if TG gives up wanting to be the King of american OW.

Thanks for changing the subject but I did not say fans are like homogenous group.

Anyways, TG doesn't want to be the king of American OW. He wants control of his own investment. And I expect KK and GF doing the same thing that's why the conflict continues. It's a mess in this kind of business and both series have ran out of time. Sponsors, promoters and manufacturers were sick and tired of CC/IRL issue. So if they don't merge as mostly suggests, then we all hope that both series can continue on in this situation for a long time.

[Albert D. Kallal]

So some merger talks are ongoing and apparently a bunch a team owners and people don’t know about it, except for robin Miller. There’s a tremendous amount of Swiss cheese going on in his article, and that alone is a poor standard journalism on which to stand on.

However the real problem I have with this is that robin Miller seems to think that this offer to some of the team’s is a legitimate and honest and upright kind of offer. This is where Rabin Miller’s tremendous hatred and bias begins to show. Somehow a few meetings and as he says at the beginning of the season would have Paul Tracy, Graham, and guys like Helio all ready to race side by side.

When a man with the supposed knowledge and racing experience of RM makes such simple horrifying conclusions, I have to really wonder if robin Miller is really being serious at all here?

If RM has a supposed great knowledge of racing, then RM should INSTANTLY realize how insane that proposal is.

A legitimate proposal of merger does not involve business interference in a series owner trying poach existing participants (teams) to move. I fact, in some countries of the world what was being proposed is an illegal criminal offense and constitutes undo business interference.

It’s not that what facts the Robyn Miller has right or wrong in that article, but it is the rotten view that RM thinks the IRL behavior was reasonable and even a fair offer for merging the league? Where robin Miller falls down is extreme lack of charity and biasing in his position.

Offering money to poach teams is Mount Everest, Grand Canyon of a difference than that of talking about and encouraging some type of merger.

If TG was talking about some kind of merger, then he would talking about a new engine lease program to Cosworth for all IRL teams to use. RM fails to mention the engine issue at all. RM did not even bring up this issue.

If there’s any credibility to the rumors and desires of Honda to pull out, then why on earth the IRL would not be talking about a deal to use Cosworth engines for the next season?

I’m not sure what’s worse here:

The IRL is supposedly serious about merger?
But they are NOT talking to Cosworth for engines?

Perhaps even more despicable than the engine issue is that robin Miller fails to mention this issue! If the IRL is being the good shepherd and Stewart here and wants a merger, Honda wants out, then anybody with a logical brain who would state that the IRL should be talking to Cosworth.

Robin Miller’s concept is well let’s have a few teams move over to the IRL and then race together. At that point all is well we sing what the world needs now is love. How can RM really stand here with a straight face and make the statements to this position is beyond me.

Furthermore why would the IRL would be considering a new car when champ car just built one perfect for their needs? Remember the DP01 was built with oval racing as a consideration, they simply did not finish and build the oval package for the car. In place of a new car to the IRL, they simply have to spring for money to develop the oval areo package for the DP01. This would be far cheaper then the IRL building a whole new car.

Again the fact that the IRL is supposed being the good steward here and making some kind of good offer for merger. Yet the IRL is still talking about building their own new car, not taking to cosworth, and not even considering to use the car we just developed?

If the IRL was leading a offer to lease Cosworth engines, adopt the DP 01, then I think we’ve made humongous leaps and bounds and bridged huge gaps in the ability to have a merger occur. I would bet that most of the team owners and sponsors and participants in champ car could be won over if the IRL made these simple moves. Ironically by the IRL adopting the dp01, it would make it very easy (and less cost) for our teams to merge into the IRL also!

For RM to ignore the Cosworth engine package, the new car that we have, and then state that the IRL cares about a merger by making offers to pouch CCWS teams borders on RM supporting criminal behavior. I don't care about a “fine” technical criminal definition by the local courts, but it is plain and simple that Rabin Miller's position is simply criminal given the knowledge of racing that RM has.

In a way, if what’s being proposed is not criminal by the courts view, the position RM is supporting is still bordering on the criminally insane….

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

[Jacques]

The way to stop it, of course, is to end the split. Then in one felt swoop, you've sent a message to all open wheel fans that by unifying, you want to give them the best show possible. In effect, to give the customers their money's worth. .
Who says fans ar not getting their money's worth now ?
In other forums, plenty of its members, who are IRL fans, are not happy with what it became .... CART II. They are not happy either with what awaits them : more of CART II and less ovals.
Maybe the split allowed the oval and road crowds to separate and now they like it that way.
But .. who are we to decide when we have so many experts here telling us what is best for us ?

[Jacques]

So if they don't merge as most suggests ... .
Is there a link to data that supports your statement ?
Just wondering .... if there is such data, I'd like to see it.

[Chaparral66]

So some merger talks are ongoing and apparently a bunch a team owners and people don’t know about it, except for robin Miller. There’s a tremendous amount of Swiss cheese going on in his article, and that alone is a poor standard journalism on which to stand on.

However the real problem I have with this is that robin Miller seems to think that this offer to some of the team’s is a legitimate and honest and upright kind of offer. This is where Rabin Miller’s tremendous hatred and bias begins to show. Somehow a few meetings and as he says at the beginning of the season would have Paul Tracy, Graham, and guys like Helio all ready to race side by side.

When a man with the supposed knowledge and racing experience of RM makes such simple horrifying conclusions, I have to really wonder if robin Miller is really being serious at all here?

If RM has a supposed great knowledge of racing, then RM should INSTANTLY realize how insane that proposal is.

A legitimate proposal of merger does not involve business interference in a series owner trying poach existing participants (teams) to move. I fact, in some countries of the world what was being proposed is an illegal criminal offense and constitutes undo business interference.

It’s not that what facts the Robyn Miller has right or wrong in that article, but it is the rotten view that RM thinks the IRL behavior was reasonable and even a fair offer for merging the league? Where robin Miller falls down is extreme lack of charity and biasing in his position.

Offering money to poach teams is Mount Everest, Grand Canyon of a difference than that of talking about and encouraging some type of merger.

If TG was talking about some kind of merger, then he would talking about a new engine lease program to Cosworth for all IRL teams to use. RM fails to mention the engine issue at all. RM did not even bring up this issue.

If there’s any credibility to the rumors and desires of Honda to pull out, then why on earth the IRL would not be talking about a deal to use Cosworth engines for the next season?

I’m not sure what’s worse here:

The IRL is supposedly serious about merger?
But they are NOT talking to Cosworth for engines?

Perhaps even more despicable than the engine issue is that robin Miller fails to mention this issue! If the IRL is being the good shepherd and Stewart here and wants a merger, Honda wants out, then anybody with a logical brain who would state that the IRL should be talking to Cosworth.

Robin Miller’s concept is well let’s have a few teams move over to the IRL and then race together. At that point all is well we sing what the world needs now is love. How can RM really stand here with a straight face and make the statements to this position is beyond me.

Furthermore why would the IRL would be considering a new car when champ car just built one perfect for their needs? Remember the DP01 was built with oval racing as a consideration, they simply did not finish and build the oval package for the car. In place of a new car to the IRL, they simply have to spring for money to develop the oval areo package for the DP01. This would be far cheaper then the IRL building a whole new car.

Again the fact that the IRL is supposed being the good steward here and making some kind of good offer for merger. Yet the IRL is still talking about building their own new car, not taking to cosworth, and not even considering to use the car we just developed?

If the IRL was leading a offer to lease Cosworth engines, adopt the DP 01, then I think we’ve made humongous leaps and bounds and bridged huge gaps in the ability to have a merger occur. I would bet that most of the team owners and sponsors and participants in champ car could be won over if the IRL made these simple moves. Ironically by the IRL adopting the dp01, it would make it very easy (and less cost) for our teams to merge into the IRL also!

For RM to ignore the Cosworth engine package, the new car that we have, and then state that the IRL cares about a merger by making offers to pouch CCWS teams borders on RM supporting criminal behavior. I don't care about a “fine” technical criminal definition by the local courts, but it is plain and simple that Rabin Miller's position is simply criminal given the knowledge of racing that RM has.

In a way, if what’s being proposed is not criminal by the courts view, the position RM is supporting is still bordering on the criminally insane….

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

Very good post. Thanks for not (as much) calling into question Robin Miller's integrity, as much as expressing your view that is obviously contrary to his. That's very cool and what we are all here to do is debate views. I will defend RM in that he is expressing his viewpoint as the rest of us are, and it is a knowledgeable viewpoint. I will also defend him in that RM is a man who grew up in open wheel racing, was a racer himself, and eats, breathes, and sleeps open wheel racing. Those of you who question his view fail to recognize his heart. He has seen a sport that he is passionate about been torn to shreds by two groups who have not shown any regard for the fans. He has seen a sport that was once as great as mighty NASCAR (of which he shares equal contempt with the lot of you) fall to barely a whimper and not getting as much buzz as ALMS or Grand Am. He has seen the once great hope for Champ Car, The Three Amigos (now 4) who came in and saved CART from the clutches of Tony George who doubtlessly would have tried to erase its history, and try to relaunch it with a new business plan and energy.

RM has seen that promise become a travesty of failed potential, even more so as several attempts to merge have come up empty. He is now, as many of us are, so anxious to end this war that he might be willing to make a deal with the devil himself (how appropriate) to get everyone racing under one roof again. Robin Miller, like many of us here in this forum, has lost a lot of faith in The Amigos, and he has rationalized that working with TG can't be all that bad.

Having said all that, I agree for the most part with Albert in his mistrust of this deal with TG. As I said on another thread, I still don't trust TG and with good reason. If you look at this deal, it really holds no benefit for CCWS; all it does is give the IRL a higher car count, which TG realizes he needs, especially to keep his precious Indy 500 afloat; it gives the Ilmor engine group with Honda and Dallara more customers; and more events for the IRL to flesh out its schedule. It does nothing for Cosworth, which would have to find new sources of income to replace Champ Car customers, it does nothing for the employees of Champ Car, who got no assurances that they would have jobs; and it does nothing for other venues on CCWS' schedule, like Cleveland, a traditional race for the area and one of Champ Car's most competitive venues. That's enough for me to say no dice, which is apparently what The Amigos did. This deal was designed to put the knife into CCWS and twist it, so it won't exist anymore. The same can be said of his gang of 25 in the first Indy 500 after the split occured; the same can be said of his attempt to buy CART's assests in 2003; and the same could be said when he made an attempt to take Long Beach out from under OWRS. All these moves were calculated to destroy CART/Champ Car so Tony George can have complete control. That's unacceptable. The Amigos should submit a counter offer, and impress upon TG that time is limited and that the opportunity save the sport is now. There are no other real options to consider.

[Chaparral66]

Hopefully Robin Miller will realize this deal is not worth dirt once he really thinks about it.

[Cart750hp]

Is there a link to data that supports your statement ?
Just wondering .... if there is such data, I'd like to see it.

The data is called common sense. What, do you think people in here and out there (except the fanatics) aren't looking forward for one series? Well, since you are blinded by hate to IRL, I totally understand where you are coming from. Of course, you need a data.

[neophyte]

I have played (and won) monopoly without owning Boardwalk and Park Place.

[garyshell]

Is there a link to data that supports your statement ?
Just wondering .... if there is such data, I'd like to see it.


Just look around you. This very forum is full of folks who were anti merger, and wanted "...king George's" head on a pike, many of (I dare say MOST of) have come to realize that a merger is essential.

OK, don't like that data? How about this. Look at the number of folks who own or work for Champ Car teams who are calling for a merger. Folks like Jimmy Vasser, who when the IRL was formed would have not spit on "...king George" if he was on fire. Now what is Jimmy saying?

What other DATA do you want, some freakin' exit poll? How good are those?

Gary

[garyshell]

I have played (and won) monopoly without owning Boardwalk and Park Place.

What percentage of the time? Individual anecdotal evidence doesn't prove the point. Sure it CAN be done, but the REAL question is how often CAN it be done. I've pissed in the wind before without getting my shoes wet.

Gary

[garyshell]

Well, since you are blinded by hate to IRL, I totally understand where you are coming from.

Some of us still see the red mist any time "...king George's" name is brought up and yet we can still see the handwriting on the wall.

Gary

[cartpix]

You guys talk about the "fans" like they are a homogenous group that all want the same thing. I do not think so. The fan base is split into those that like the IRL cars on ovals and a coupla road courses,,,, and those that could care less about high speed ovals and prefer road and street races in a turbo that is easy on the eye,,,, and OK lets say there are still a few who would still like to see some death match races at superspeedways.



There are some of us, who are homogenous. I love it all. I always have. I was brought up around it. I was going to races, before I could walk. I saw Parnelli, Gurney, Shelby, etc. race & didn't even know who they were. I was watching race cars & I loved it.

Throughout the years I watched USAC, NHRA, IMSA, SCCA, AHRA, NASCAR, CART, IRL, & Champ Car. I get just as enthused watching & shooting SCCA club events, as I do the Long Beach Grand Prix. I'm not a fair weather / split fan. I thought (and think) the split was stupid but it doesn't stop me from watching Tony George's circus or the Amigo's circus.

I hate the politics of racing. I always have. It seems more & more it's all we ever talk about. I know it's silly season & talks of politics becomes more prevalent but I find, as every year goes by, that it creeps more & more into the regular season. The bad part is, I buy into it, take a side, and it gets ugly.

I look forward to seeing you, this season, Sandfly. We have had some good debates, here, and are still glad to see one another, at the track.

Jeff

[Chaparral66]

Who says fans ar not getting their money's worth now ?
In other forums, plenty of its members, who are IRL fans, are not happy with what it became .... CART II. They are not happy either with what awaits them : more of CART II and less ovals.
Maybe the split allowed the oval and road crowds to separate and now they like it that way.
But .. who are we to decide when we have so many experts here telling us what is best for us ?

THE FANS are saying they are not getting their money's worth, by the lack of use of their wallets in the sport today. Just take a look at history. Back in the early 90's CART was doing almost as well as NASCAR and their TV ratings were very good. The Indy 500 didn't have to advertise because their constant sellouts gave first shot to repeat customers and they always had the next year's race sold out the next day, practically. A CART race could sell out 70,000 at Fontana in that track's first few years.

Now, IMS can only get a sellout at the Indy 500 with a marketing push of raceday available tickets; and Fontana has no open wheel racing of any kind.

Neither does Michigan.

Neither does New Hampshire.

Neither does Walt Disney Speedway (Does anyone even remember this track?).

Nazaerth and Pikes Peak racetracks don't exist anymore.

All this downturn took place during these last 13 years. As I said before, the fans are speaking the loudest in this whole thing, and they are being ignored. Open wheel continues to do that to this day at their collective peril.

And before any of you out there say I'm speaking for you, don't flatter yourselves. I am speaking about market trends and cleary trackable customer buying tendencies, which are easily readable when you see the dropoff of fans at OW racing events over the time of the split. Does what I have said, and others (if I may be so bold), speak for every single solitary fan? Of course not, no one deals in absolutes. There will always be fans who continue to go to the races, that's what we do, right? When I am talking about what the fans have reacted to, it is always about the "majority", for lack of a better term, and what the shift is and where it goes. Yikes...

[Chaparral66]

There are some of us, who are homogenous. I love it all. I always have. I was brought up around it. I was going to races, before I could walk. I saw Parnelli, Gurney, Shelby, etc. race & didn't even know who they were. I was watching race cars & I loved it.

Throughout the years I watched USAC, NHRA, IMSA, SCCA, AHRA, NASCAR, CART, IRL, & Champ Car. I get just as enthused watching & shooting SCCA club events, as I do the Long Beach Grand Prix. I'm not a fair weather / split fan. I thought (and think) the split was stupid but it doesn't stop me from watching Tony George's circus or the Amigo's circus.

I hate the politics of racing. I always have. It seems more & more it's all we ever talk about. I know it's silly season & talks of politics becomes more prevalent but I find, as every year goes by, that it creeps more & more into the regular season. The bad part is, I buy into it, take a side, and it gets ugly.

I look forward to seeing you, this season, Sandfly. We have had some good debates, here, and are still glad to see one another, at the track.

Jeff

Just to show I have no self esteem issues, this eleoquent post speaks for me. My compliments, Jeff. Your way with words would seem to match your way with an electronic digital optical aquisitions device :D . I got your back on this one, and maybe I'll run into at Road America this year, if I'm lucky, carrying my own EDOA unit.

[cartpix]

Just to show I have no self esteem issues, this eleoquent post speaks for me. My compliments, Jeff. Your way with words would seem to match your way with an electronic digital optical aquisitions device :D . I got your back on this one, and maybe I'll run into at Road America this year, if I'm lucky, carrying my own EDOA unit.


We are planning on covering RA, this year. It would be great to meet you. We know some great eateries, there, maybe you could join us for dinner.

Jeff

[nanders]

Just look around you. This very forum is full of folks who were anti merger, and wanted "...king George's" head on a pike, many of (I dare say MOST of) have come to realize that a merger is essential.

OK, don't like that data? How about this. Look at the number of folks who own or work for Champ Car teams who are calling for a merger. Folks like Jimmy Vasser, who when the IRL was formed would have not spit on "...king George" if he was on fire. Now what is Jimmy saying?

What other DATA do you want, some freakin' exit poll? How good are those?

Gary

And I'd have to think that if Uimmy's saying it, and he's Kalkhovens partner, Kevin is likely thinking it too.

[Chris R]

I thought Vasser's comments were the most telling of all.....

[nanders]

Nazaerth and Pikes Peak racetracks don't exist anymore.

Killed by Lesa France Kennedy.

[Jacques]

THE FANS are saying they are not getting their money's worth, by the lack of use of their wallets in the sport today. Just take a look at history. Back in the early 90's CART was doing almost as well as NASCAR and their TV ratings were very good. The Indy 500 didn't have to advertise because their constant sellouts gave first shot to repeat customers and they always had the next year's race sold out the next day, practically. A CART race could sell out 70,000 at Fontana in that track's first few years.

And before any of you out there say I'm speaking for you, don't flatter yourselves. I am speaking about market trends and cleary trackable customer buying tendencies, which are easily readable when you see the dropoff of fans at OW racing events over the time of the split. Does what I have said, and others (if I may be so bold), speak for every single solitary fan? Of course not, no one deals in absolutes. There will always be fans who continue to go to the races, that's what we do, right? When I am talking about what the fans have reacted to, it is always about the "majority", for lack of a better term, and what the shift is and where it goes. Yikes...
Maybe, even w/o the split, we'd be in the same boat. Some people have questioned all those attendance numbers at those tracks. A lot of the suport/sponsors were Honda and Toyota waging war against each other.

MLB lost to the NFL and tennis is losing to golf. What can the loser do ? How much can the MLB change w/o losing what baseball is all about ?

How big, "really," was CART in the 90s ?

[Chaparral66]

Maybe, even w/o the split, we'd be in the same boat. Some people have questioned all those attendance numbers at those tracks. A lot of the suport/sponsors were Honda and Toyota waging war against each other.

MLB lost to the NFL and tennis is losing to golf. What can the loser do ? How much can the MLB change w/o losing what baseball is all about ?

How big, "really," was CART in the 90s ?

OK, you make a valid point. It is possible that open wheel may have taken a hit or two under the NASCAR onslaught anyway, I just don't think nearly as much. But as far as crowds are concerned, just look back in some racing archival photos, and just look at the dense crowds that filled up the venues they went to. CART did very well, and while some fans brought there were hospitality guests, most of the fans who came were very enthusiastic open wheel fans.

[neophyte]

I've pissed in the wind before without getting my shoes wet.

Gary,

It depends in the angle! :p

Point is, Because he got snubbed by the CCWS brass, RM is now writing stuff about CCWS in a way that he didn't write before. Events similar to what he has been writing lately have happened during the last 4 or so years. Before the hard card removal, his perspective was very much pro champcar. Now that he is not on the same side as KK/GF, his writting tends to emphasize the negatives of CC.

There are MANY things happening behind close doors that most of us here have no access to than what you and I can ever imagine.

I have never been one to thrive on speculation, so I will wait until all the marbles are played, then I will decide if I continue with my support of CC or if I remove myself from the "racing fan list".

[FlatChatRacer]

From a European perspective, whether we like the current situation with Champ Car or not, there is no guarantee that the series will be televised on Eurosport this year.

I have seen nor heard anything about the televising of Champ Car in Europe. At least, you can watch the series if you are in the U.S.A., looks like we may miss it this year in Europe.

Shame, because this could be the final year of Champ Car. Crazy thing is the IRL is televised on Sky Sports here in England, so I can watch that.

I would prefer it, if I could watch both!

[Cart750hp]

From a European perspective, whether we like the current situation with Champ Car or not, there is no guarantee that the series will be televised on Eurosport this year.

I have seen nor heard anything about the televising of Champ Car in Europe. At least, you can watch the series if you are in the U.S.A., looks like we may miss it this year in Europe.

Shame, because this could be the final year of Champ Car. Crazy thing is the IRL is televised on Sky Sports here in England, so I can watch that.

I would prefer it, if I could watch both!

My suggestion, watch who provides you entertainment and what is available. Oh well, since CC isn't broadcasted there....that ain't you problem anymore, FlatChatRacer. I'd do the same thing too.

[gofastandwynn]

I thought Vasser's comments were the most telling of all.....

I think this one is...



“I’m just going where I think the future of open-wheel racing is going to be,” - Tony Cotman

[Sandfly]

Thanks Jeff! I look forward to seeing you this year as well! You make some important points -- that many of us are long time fans of lots of racing... I still have my brick and shrine in my office - but I have given up on the speedway as a miraculously special place. Not just because of the split - but because of Tg's mangement which has turned it into an SCCA regional venue.

I do not think that TG's vision for OW or his demonstrated mangagement of his series and his speedway in any way justify us advocating turning the thing over to him.

Tony Cotman , came from the IRL and now he is going back I am sure that he feels that the future of open wheel - FOR HIM - is at the IRL. That is vastly different than suggesting that CC will not continue or prosper.

There are two different types of fans - even with broad racing backgrounds - that prefer different types of racing. I am a road racing fan. I could care less about ovals. Been there ,done that - got lots of video.

In the interest of the business side of racing however, I do think the idea of a two division playoff for the Championship Cup, with two distinct series coming together, sharing sponsor interest, building race car counts, working toward an equivilancy formula and eventually a common set of rules - could be done for the betterment of everyone . But TG wants to control it all. So efforts by TCotman to get the amigos to give it away -- teams running in May in IRL cars - without holding on to the strengths of CC seem a little speedway centric. And now it seems that TCotman is going home. That does not mean the end of CC, simply the end of his efforts to take the amigos there with him.

See ya at Long Beach!

[Chaparral66]

[quote="neophyte"]neophyte:

Point is, Because he got snubbed by the CCWS brass, RM is now writing stuff about CCWS in a way that he didn't write before. Events similar to what he has been writing lately have happened during the last 4 or so years. Before the hard card removal, his perspective was very much pro champcar. Now that he is not on the same side as KK/GF, his writting tends to emphasize the negatives of CC.

QUOTE]

RM was pro Champ Car when writing for the Champ Car website. He used to feature various and new drivers, teams, and technical people. When he wrote for SPEEDTV.com, that was his forum to write his unfiltered opinion about open wheel racing in general. Since Robin wasn't born yesterday (far from it), I am sure he established an understanding to both SPEEDTV.com and Champ Car of how he would handle writing for both entities. He would be more or less a PR writer for the Champ Car site, and he was free to write his editorial view for SPEED.

Robin Miller wasn't snubbed. He got canned in a vindictive move by Champ Car when he wrote his honest (though quite blunt) view of what was going on in CCWS. The Amigos did a Jack Nicholson (You can't handle the truth!), and cut RM loose, which was much in the same mindset that Gerry Forsythe and Paul Gentillozzi had about Tony Cotman when TC made a few calls that went against their race teams. This is the same mindset PG had when he took over Trans Am, and now look where that once fabled series is. It's their series, so they have whomever they want in it or out of it, but that does not speak well of their integrity. Robin Miller had the guts to write honestly about what CCWS was, and was not doing, and to hell with the repercussions. We should be thankful for a reporter of this dedication and skill who is still writing passionately about a sport the rest of the sports media has given up for dead.
Try asking Bob Ryan of The Boston Globe to write about open wheel and he'll look at you as if you had 4 heads on your shoulders (I know, I've spoken to him, you had to drag him kicking and screaming up to New Hampshire for a NASCAR Cup race and acknowledge Richard Petty).

One thing you need to remember: Robin Miller doesn't have to make any of this stuff up, or even exaggerate anything. All this stuff happens right in front of him, practically, and all he has to do is basically write what he observes. The stories pretty much write themselves with folks like The Amigos and Tony George steering this Titanic and Luisitania.

[Jacques]

OK, you make a valid point. It is possible that open wheel may have taken a hit or two under the NASCAR onslaught anyway, I just don't think nearly as much. But as far as crowds are concerned, just look back in some racing archival photos, and just look at the dense crowds that filled up the venues they went to. CART did very well, and while some fans brought there were hospitality guests, most of the fans who came were very enthusiastic open wheel fans.
People in other boards posted links to the SEC filings. In them one can read an anlysis, "biased" since it was written by OWRS, of what went wrong with CART. I doubt if much fudging was inserted in them since the numbers they qouted were presented to the SEC and to the Court. Nevertheless, it does show that the vast support came from Honda and Toyota. In fact, that reliance was attributed to the issues surrounding CART's instability. Once that support was removed .. how many teams were left standing ? Only those that had stuck to Ford ... as I read in other boards.

Obviously, there were more people present back then; but attendance had already started to decrease and people were tuning in to Nascar. It appears that the roots were quite shallow ... therein may lie the biggest problem for OW.

RM has written in the past about how the average tv rating for CART was at about 2.5 points. It has decreased to about 1.5 for OW combined, so we have lost the middle ground. The two sides, oval and road, separated and the other group left altogether. How can you please both sides now ?

[Chaparral66]

People in other boards posted links to the SEC filings. In them one can read an anlysis, "biased" since it was written by OWRS, of what went wrong with CART. I doubt if much fudging was inserted in them since the numbers they qouted were presented to the SEC and to the Court. Nevertheless, it does show that the vast support came from Honda and Toyota. In fact, that reliance was attributed to the issues surrounding CART's instability. Once that support was removed .. how many teams were left standing ? Only those that had stuck to Ford ... as I read in other boards.

Obviously, there were more people present back then; but attendance had already started to decrease and people were tuning in to Nascar. It appears that the roots were quite shallow ... therein may lie the biggest problem for OW.

RM has written in the past about how the average tv rating for CART was at about 2.5 points. It has decreased to about 1.5 for OW combined, so we have lost the middle ground. The two sides, oval and road, separated and the other group left altogether. How can you please both sides now ?

I don't deny for a minute the support that both Honda and Toyota brought to CART when they were involved. But to have that translate into the lion's share of attnedence? That, to me, is a stretch. Even just after the split, CART still filled the house at Fontana and did very well at Michigan. There was one variable at the two tracks we forgot to throw into the mix -- the fact that the Michigan and Fontana tracks were owned by Roger Penske. Penske knows how to promote (Belle Isle for the ALMS amd IRL races this past year is proof of that) and due to his common sense about customer accommodations, he always had a good crowd here for the events his track presented. The same cannot be said of France family owned ISC once they took over the track from Penske. Most of those fans were paying cusomers to CART events as the 90's came to a close...

[CCFanatic]

Who outside of this forum really read or listens to Robin anyway? I do not think that many. Most people and sponsors listen to people inside the sport, and in Robins case is not happening anymore. They attend the race and judge the sport be looking at what happens. They visit the team's HQ's to see how the teams work. 99.9% of the universe really doesn't give a rats butt what Robin says.

[Chaparral66]

Who outside of this forum really read or listens to Robin anyway? I do not think that many. Most people and sponsors listen to people inside the sport, and in Robins case is not happening anymore. They attend the race and judge the sport be looking at what happens. They visit the team's HQ's to see how the teams work. 99.9% of the universe really doesn't give a rats butt what Robin says.

Why wouldn't you read him? How many other sports journalists out there, besides a Gordon Kirby, OW Indy Star columnists, and a David Phillips, are writing regularly about open wheel racing? Who else can you go to hear honest commentary. Robin is by far NOT the open wheel Anti-Christ.

[nanders]

Who outside of this forum really read or listens to Robin anyway? I do not think that many. Most people and sponsors listen to people inside the sport, and in Robins case is not happening anymore. They attend the race and judge the sport be looking at what happens. They visit the team's HQ's to see how the teams work. 99.9% of the universe really doesn't give a rats butt what Robin says.

I must hand it to you CCF ... I finally agree with you. I mentioned a few days ago that I thinking RM may already be irrelevant. As most AOWR scribes are.

[cartpix]

Why wouldn't you read him? How many other sports journalists out there, besides a Gordon Kirby, OW Indy Star columnists, and a David Phillips, are writing regularly about open wheel racing? Who else can you go to hear honest commentary. Robin is by far NOT the open wheel Anti-Christ.

Hey, don't forget Robin's stand up act, on Dave Disdain's show. I used to have it out for Robin. At the preview of Champ Car, in Long Beach (the won that Rahal & Fernandez left CC over), Robin was very critical of Champ Car & continued to be, throughout the season. But through a series of circumstance, I was forced to sit next to him, in the media center, at Las Vegas. There was a lot of down time, so I talked at length with him about Champ Car, CART, USAC, Indy, etc. My mind changed about him, that weekend. He's not a bad guy or a devil.

Jeff

[Chaparral66]

Hey, don't forget Robin's stand up act, on Dave Disdain's show. I used to have it out for Robin. At the preview of Champ Car, in Long Beach (the won that Rahal & Fernandez left CC over), Robin was very critical of Champ Car & continued to be, throughout the season. But through a series of circumstance, I was forced to sit next to him, in the media center, at Las Vegas. There was a lot of down time, so I talked at length with him about Champ Car, CART, USAC, Indy, etc. My mind changed about him, that weekend. He's not a bad guy or a devil.

Jeff

Disdain? :)

[spiritone]

When does this guy ever come up with balanced commentary that covers both sides of a story. For him it's always the same bs. According to him everything cc does is wrong, and if tg was running open wheel everything would be ok. Sorry RM you dummy but tg has been running his own series for quite awhile now and look at the success it is. TG was the one that split open wheel racing and started this slide. Every year its the same bs from him about how the two should merge with him running the show. If anyone wants to see the end of openwheel racing give it to the idiot grandson.

Robin Miller if you want to help open wheel get out of the business.

[FlatChatRacer]

spiritone,

It is a little dramatic to say that having Tony George in charge of AOWR will be the end.

AOWR will just go in a direction that you may not like under his leadership. He will not destroy it. Just like the Amigos will not entirely destroy Champ Car.

Unfortunately, AOWR needs huge financial support to sustain it. What we are all witnessing now, is the degree to which that financial support is required.

It looks like only one series will survive beyond 2009. The surviving series is likely to be the one that is better supported from a financial perspective.

Now, if it happens to be the IRL and Tony George, then so be it. That's just the racing business. It doesn't have to be fair or what we would like it to be, but it is just business.

Champ Car and it's assets will stay out of Tony George's hands if it has adequate financial support. If it doesn't, then it will be vulnerable to his advances.

[spiritone]

So be it. Sorry, but TG running open wheel racing is the end of open wheel racing for me and a lot of other fans. Champ car fans are about Champ cars not the flying slugs of the irl. I don't care about how much money the idiot grandson has he is not capable of running any series, as he has already proved.

[tbyars]

So be it. Sorry, but TG running open wheel racing is the end of open wheel racing for me and a lot of other fans. Champ car fans are about Champ cars not the flying slugs of the irl. I don't care about how much money the idiot grandson has he is not capable of running any series, as he has already proved.

Better look around at this forum and a lot of others. A whole lot of traditional CC fans are now saying they don't really care, as long as we have one series.

Everyone has known for a long time that bringing things under one roof is going to lose diehard fanatics, probably on both sides of the fence. Looks like we're going to have to do without you. What a shame.

By the way, just exactly WHAT have the Amigos proven they are capable of running? At this point, it looks like they can't even conduct a civil meeting together. Where is THAT going to get us?

[Jacques]

Better look around at this forum and a lot of others. A whole lot of traditional CC fans are now saying they don't really care, as long as we have one series.

Everyone has known for a long time that bringing things under one roof is going to lose diehard fanatics, probably on both sides of the fence. Looks like we're going to have to do without you. What a shame.

By the way, just exactly WHAT have the Amigos proven they are capable of running? At this point, it looks like they can't even conduct a civil meeting together. Where is THAT going to get us?

It makes no sense to question a poster's analysis of a series "support" by looking at forum traffic and, then, to turn around and claim that these same forums can be used to gage "support" for an unified series.

I don't think the diehard fan is the one you should be concerned about. It is the 14% drop in tv ratings that the IRL suffered last year that should worry you ... and OW fans in general.

On the other hand, when both series are down to just about diehard support, it would appear to me that you should pay attention to your diehard fans.

What a shame ? Maybe, maybe not. There is plenty of road racing around on tv. Do you have "enough" fans that you are willing to lose still some more ?

[Chaparral66]

When does this guy ever come up with balanced commentary that covers both sides of a story. For him it's always the same bs. According to him everything cc does is wrong, and if tg was running open wheel everything would be ok. Sorry RM you dummy but tg has been running his own series for quite awhile now and look at the success it is. TG was the one that split open wheel racing and started this slide. Every year its the same bs from him about how the two should merge with him running the show. If anyone wants to see the end of openwheel racing give it to the idiot grandson.

Robin Miller if you want to help open wheel get out of the business.

He covers both sides regularly. But he is also an editorial columnist, which means he is entitled - encouraged, even - to present his opinion on his subject of choice. Example? Robin Miller has been very critical of Tony George in the past (and still is, when the Grandson does something silly); when TG started to fool around with the qualifying at Indy, that got a sharp rebuke from RM. When TG made the quote of the century when he said "33 is just a number", Miller hounded him for weeks over that bit of TG genius. When TG changed the starting time of the Indy 500, a move that prevented people like Tony Stewart, Robby Gordon, and John Andretti, from doing anymore 2 race days (competing in both the Indy 500 and Coca-Cola 600), which brought Indy some decent buzz, but TG obviously feeling Indy took a back seat to the 600, Miller again was very critical. When the amount of entries for the I500 started to dwindle, and barely have 33 entries for the race, RM again blamed TG, citing the split he started and how the industry was caving in on itself.

If RM is being tough on The Amigos now, it's because they deserve it. (You going to tell me that letting AJ Almindinger go, getting a lousy TV package from ABC/ESPN, ignoring the wisdom of a Tony Cotman were positive things for Champ Car? Get real.) Which only goes to show he is even handed. If either The Amigos or Tony George screw up, he'll be there to land on them hard as he always does. Let's say TG ends up getting a concession from the Amigos (no way I want that to happen) and the IRL gets to run the sport. Do you really think Robin Miller won't be right back as an itch TG can't scratch if TG screws up on something? Don't bet on it. Miller may be suggesting that this deal TG offered is one the Amigos should consider, but he is far from drinking TG's kool-aid. Right now, I'd say Miller is as sick of this split as the rest of us, and is merely choosing the lesser of evils at this point. He, as many of the forum inhabitants have said at this point, any real chance at reunifying needs to be looked at. I may not agree with that, but I understand it.

[Miatanut]

Better look around at this forum and a lot of others. A whole lot of traditional CC fans are now saying they don't really care, as long as we have one series.

Everyone has known for a long time that bringing things under one roof is going to lose diehard fanatics, probably on both sides of the fence. Looks like we're going to have to do without you. What a shame.

By the way, just exactly WHAT have the Amigos proven they are capable of running? At this point, it looks like they can't even conduct a civil meeting together. Where is THAT going to get us?

I see a lot of folks saying they would rather have nothing than something run by Tony George. I think the IRL is in for a rude awakening when most of those fans choose to watch ALMS rather than the IRL.

And, yes, I agree there needs to be just one series. I just think it will be many years before there is an open wheel series a lot of us will want to watch.

[spiritone]

Balanced reporting eh. His latest column ( TG will win ow game of monopoly) is another example of his balanced reporting. CC is the Villain and TG is the hero riding to the rescue of ow.

What a laugh! Seems to have forgot that TG started this spit and now we're supposed to embrace him as the savior of ow racing.

[tbyars]

Balanced reporting eh. His latest column ( TG will win ow game of monopoly) is another example of his balanced reporting. CC is the Villain and TG is the hero riding to the rescue of ow.

What a laugh! Seems to have forgot that TG started this spit and now we're supposed to embrace him as the savior of ow racing.

The split TG started was over in 2003.

THIS split sits squarely in the laps of the Amigos.

[jimispeed]

The split TG started was over in 2003.

THIS split sits squarely in the laps of the Amigos.

WTF?!!!

Are you serious??

[Pat Wiatrowski]

The split TG started was over in 2003.

THIS split sits squarely in the laps of the Amigos.

NOT true at all. What are you on?

[nanders]

The split TG started was over in 2003.

THIS split sits squarely in the laps of the Amigos.

I agree.

[tbyars]

WTF?!!!

Are you serious??

Yes, I am.

The IRL split from CART.

CART went bankrupt and is no longer in business.

Dispute those facts.

[994ever]

Yes, I am.

The IRL split from CART.

CART went bankrupt and is no longer in business.

Dispute those facts.

Care to explain to the rest of the class how that shows that Tony George is completely blameless vis a vis the current situation?

I'd love to see an explanation from you on that, particularly in the context of your repeated, constant and adamant stance lo these many years that Tony was but a small factor in what you seem to see as the first-as-in-totally-distinct-and-not-at-all-related-to-the-second split...

[seppefan]

What creates RM's angst is the incompetence of BOTH side of mangement. TG, KK, GF, PG, DP, all of them. Who advise them ? I am speechless.

[mlittle]

Yes, I am.

The IRL split from CART.

CART went bankrupt and is no longer in business.

Dispute those facts.


Tbyars' right on this one......the first split(from 1996-2003) was between CART and the IRL; that ended when CART went belly-up and "the Amigos"(Kalkhoven, Forsythe and Gentilozzi) bought CART's assets
in bankruptcy court. The current split(2004-present) is between ChampCar and the IRL, not between CART and the IRL.

[spiritone]

What is this,the split ended when cart went bankrupt. That sounds like troll revisionist history. No matter how you want to spin the split it was the forming of the irl that started the split, end of story.

Its very odd that this is supposed to be a champcar forum but it seems to be nothing but trolls spewing out their version of how champcar needs to be managed, and how great TG is and how RW is a journalist.

A journalist is someone who spends time researching a story, not someone who has an agenda and makes up stories from rumors. A real journalist gets both sides of a story and reports facts. Reading RW is like reading the STAR.

This forum was once a real champcar forum. Lately it seems to be overrun with trolls who want to spin their little tale about how bad off champcar is. I think you guys should take a good look at the irl and the many problems that they have.

I'm a diehard champcar fan who has no use for people who want to spend all their time criticizing my series. tbyars, nanders your on the wrong forum.

[jimispeed]

You can't replace the truth with another truth!! TG split up open wheel by starting a seperate oval only open wheel series.

KK, and OWRS bought out the CART bankruptcy in order to carry on an open wheel racing series that runs very deep in history.

I don't believe you guys are even going to discuss this!!

[Jacques]

The split TG started was over in 2003.

THIS split sits squarely in the laps of the Amigos.
C'mon, let's be real. Now you are splitting hairs.
It is the continuation of the original split. Simple as that.

[Sandfly]

You can't replace the truth with another truth!! TG split up open wheel by starting a seperate oval only open wheel series.

KK, and OWRS bought out the CART bankruptcy in order to carry on an open wheel racing series that runs very deep in history.

I don't believe you guys are even going to discuss this!!

And the funny part is that those IRL believers will actually come here to the ChmapCar forum and tell us thet we are "delusional, out of touch with reality and not worthy of further discussion, blah blah blah." Really would be funny except that it is that kind of "encourgement" that makes TG think he really can control the whole world of open wheel and that he really is doing inspired work. Mindy , Danica ... exposed!!! Gimme a break.

[spiritone]

Right On Sandfly.

[Cart750hp]

And the funny part is that those IRL believers will actually come here to the ChmapCar forum and tell us thet we are "delusional, out of touch with reality and not worthy of further discussion, blah blah blah." Really would be funny except that it is that kind of "encourgement" that makes TG think he really can control the whole world of open wheel and that he really is doing inspired work. Mindy , Danica ... exposed!!! Gimme a break.

Funniest post of the week!



Somebody actually believes that TG get encouraged by what people say. Very funny. This guy owns IMS and the last thing he'd listen to about "encouragement" would be in forums. Let me remind you that this guy gets his own encouragement from the people who makes money out of him, sponsors, lawyers, associates and definitely not from a poster name "Sandfly" in CC forums.

Delusional would be understated, you're right on that one.

[nanders]

What is this,the split ended when cart went bankrupt. That sounds like troll revisionist history. No matter how you want to spin the split it was the forming of the irl that started the split, end of story.

Its very odd that this is supposed to be a champcar forum but it seems to be nothing but trolls spewing out their version of how champcar needs to be managed, and how great TG is and how RW is a journalist.

A journalist is someone who spends time researching a story, not someone who has an agenda and makes up stories from rumors. A real journalist gets both sides of a story and reports facts. Reading RW is like reading the STAR.

This forum was once a real champcar forum. Lately it seems to be overrun with trolls who want to spin their little tale about how bad off champcar is. I think you guys should take a good look at the irl and the many problems that they have.

I'm a diehard champcar fan who has no use for people who want to spend all their time criticizing my series. tbyars, nanders your on the wrong forum.

I actually like champcar. The races a pretty good, my favorite driver is Paul Tracy and I thank Kevin Kalkhoven for stepping up and trying save AOWR, at least a segment of it, from Tony George. I love what the series was and I really like the CCWS, and never miss a race, no matter how critical I have become of it.

With this said, I'm not blind. I'm not a "rose colored glasses" person. I prefer to address the tough issues head own. I come to this forum because there is broad perspective of ideas floated here that are not polarized to the hate that surrounds other forums. If you can kill my arguments with logic without having to be shrouded in what garyshell calls the "red mist," and personal attacks when presenting your point of view, I'm all for it. It happens. There are forums where speech is restricted in a fanatical way that I could go to but I can't relate to having smoke blindly blown up my skirt.

I'm of the Cmmdr Keen school of thought where what's wrong with AOWR goes far beyond your split. I believe that while your split has continued the entire formula of AOWR has become functionally obsolete beyond what any simple consolidation could repair. However, I also think something/anything different from what is happening now should happen.

I come here because the smartest post are done here. May I suggest that there is a Fanatics forum where, until the last few weeks, rarely is there anything that exist outside of what you want to hear. And if there is an opposing idea posted there, they banish them for their non-conforming broad mindedness.

[sanguin]

And the funny part is that those IRL believers will actually come here to the ChmapCar forum and tell us thet we are "delusional, out of touch with reality and not worthy of further discussion, blah blah blah." Really would be funny except that it is that kind of "encourgement" that makes TG think he really can control the whole world of open wheel and that he really is doing inspired work. Mindy , Danica ... exposed!!! Gimme a break.

I agree.

[cartpix]

I agree.


I never saw that one coming.

Jeff

[spiritone]

For someone who actually likes champcar and does not look through " rose colored glasses" it seems those glasses only see what you perceive as the flaws of champcar decisions.



Since this has been a good week for champcar maybe you could post your opinon ofthe good things that happened at this weeks test.

[garyshell]

For someone who actually likes champcar and does not look through " rose colored glasses" it seems those glasses only see what you perceive as the flaws of champcar decisions.



Since this has been a good week for champcar maybe you could post your opinon ofthe good things that happened at this weeks test.


I'll take a go at that. There were two McDonald's cars there for NHL (from what was said I don't think that will be the case on opening day, but nonetheless it was GOOD to see). Many of our favorite faces are returning, and some fresh and quite promising faces are there too. That's a good thing. The addition of the Brazilian sponsor and their beautiful livery, that's a good thing. Fourteen cars were a good thing, given there are at least two other known participants not there and it is only Feb. Seeing Justin in the NHL camp is a GREAT thing.

But (ya knew that was coming didn't you) I am really disappointed that there was no free Race Director coverage, no Speed Channel coverage, no video I can find at all. And precious little media coverage at all, a Google news search just now showed a total of 6 links. None from any main stream media. Even the Orlando paper covered the IRL test day and nothing about the ChampCar dates.

[nanders]

For someone who actually likes champcar and does not look through " rose colored glasses" it seems those glasses only see what you perceive as the flaws of champcar decisions.

I wouldn't go so far as to say "only." I spent many years reading this forum and only making a few post because the CCWS seemed to be satisfying me. But now their direction has become clearer and I'm less satisfied and I'm posting more.

I really got unhappy when Race Director started going down hill about 1/4 of the way through the season and when the European rounds came around and it got extremely bad I started to think that maybe the CCWS management didn't care any more, and until they prove that they can fix the extreme failures with Race Director I'm going to continue to point it out. You wouldn't have a problem with that, would you?

I started paying a little bit more attention and realized that this series was re-inventing itself as an F1 feeder/failure series and my dissatisfaction grew. Going to these far away rinky-dink Moto GP type tracks is not ever going to satisfy me. With that and the fact that there are no ovals, and with this new car there appears to be no more ovals coming, I'm even less satisfied.

The owners have hi-jacked Champ Cars and are turning them into something they're not and the fact you're not upset about it bothers me as much as the people that are upset with me for thinking TG might do a better job.


Since this has been a good week for champcar maybe you could post your opinon ofthe good things that happened at this weeks test.

I expect no less then what happened this week. There are no at-a-boys for a job done right. You can blow your own smoke ... for me it's, prove it! So spiritone if you work for the CCWS ... get to work, I'm tired of you guys blowing it. I own champcar.com and the minute I think you got it together my partner and I will reactivate the site.

[Speeds up for Corners]

There are no at-a-boys for a job done right. You can blow your own smoke ... for me it's, prove it!


If you won't give kudos for a job done well, then is what you're saying is the only reason you post is to complain?

[nanders]

If you won't give kudos for a job done well, then is what you're saying is the only reason you post is to complain?

No. Maybe to be critical. You wouldn't have a problem with that, would you?

[heelntoe]

If you won't give kudos for a job done well, then is what you're saying is the only reason you post is to complain?

You know, it's becoming more and more annoying to have posters like this arrive always at this time of year after the regulars have been agreeing or disagreeing all year to come up and cause a stink...you posters need to tread lightly and most definitely not highlight complaints for those of us who have lived this downfall first hand or by way of the internet on a regular basis.

[sanguin]

If you won't give kudos for a job done well, then is what you're saying is the only reason you post is to complain?

Yep! Some aren't even fans.They just want to bully those who don't agree with them. They don't even know that most of us have been through the whole history of CART/Champ Car from the beginning. We have seen it all, and choose CC over the alternative,because without CC there is no OW that exists to be a fan of.

See you at the races.

[garyshell]

There are no at-a-boys for a job done right.


If you won't give kudos for a job done well, then is what you're saying is the only reason you post is to complain?


Done right is not the same as done well!

Gary

[garyshell]

They don't even know that most of us have been through the whole history of CART/Champ Car from the beginning. We have seen it all...


And only bothered to show up here and join the forum in August 2007.

Gary

[Cart750hp]

Yep! Some aren't even fans.They just want to bully those who don't agree with them.

Bully? Wow! The last time I heard of that was in grade school.


They don't even know that most of us have been through the whole history of CART/Champ Car from the beginning.

....and what is that? You own the series? You own a team? Pleeease, you are totally out of your mind. Wonder why you keep getting banned in CC forums? Is this the result of what you've been through? DUDE, YOU CAN HAVE IT!


We have seen it all, and choose CC over the alternative,because without CC there is no OW that exists to be a fan of.

A close minded CC fanatic claiming he's seen how without CC there's no need to be a fan of OW? What...you did some studies on this or just one of those "I've gotta say it. CC is life. CC is god. CC is forever. Hate the IRL. Hate TG. Hate the D&G's. For they don't deserve the right of CC"? You need help seriously.

[Sandfly]

You guys would be funny if it wasn't so pitiful. "You're not a fan enough because I was on the forum before you... and how good is good enough" ....

I mean really now. Apart from insulting the people who come here to talk about ChampCar, what is the purpose. If you are ChampCar fans, then try to say something positive, perhaps identify some element that could be improved on - and there are many that fit the bill - but please stop with the rabid anti-ChampCar stuff. Go to the IRL forum and apply your critical insights to that program. They need the viewers.

I just don't understand such negative time consuming effort. I do not like the IRL brand of racing but I have no interest in going there to abuse the folks that do. I really hate to see someone come here and get slammed for making a positive comment about the ChampCar series. It's not very nice here.

[Cart750hp]

You guys would be funny if it wasn't so pitiful. "You're not a fan enough because I was on the forum before you... and how good is good enough" ....

I mean really now. Apart from insulting the people who come here to talk about ChampCar, what is the purpose. If you are ChampCar fans, then try to say something positive, perhaps identify some element that could be improved on - and there are many that fit the bill - but please stop with the rabid anti-ChampCar stuff. Go to the IRL forum and apply your critical insights to that program. They need the viewers.

I just don't understand such negative time consuming effort. I do not like the IRL brand of racing but I have no interest in going there to abuse the folks that do. I really hate to see someone come here and get slammed for making a positive comment about the ChampCar series. It's not very nice here.

Find me in IRL forum....

[Cart750hp]

You guys would be funny if it wasn't so pitiful. "You're not a fan enough because I was on the forum before you... and how good is good enough" ....

You mean that one fanatic who said, "people come here and spread their D&G's" or the other one who said, "we've seen it all". Sandfly, we've been here long enough and most of us here agree that there has to be one series. That being said, we never mentioned IRL and spilling our hatred to TG and his IRL. We do not push these issues. CC needs help and since the 4 lousy amigos are still running...ain't going nowhere.


I mean really now. Apart from insulting the people who come here to talk about ChampCar, what is the purpose. If you are ChampCar fans, then try to say something positive, perhaps identify some element that could be improved on - and there are many that fit the bill - but please stop with the rabid anti-ChampCar stuff. Go to the IRL forum and apply your critical insights to that program. They need the viewers.

Nope, we're not anti-CC. Since you are one of the fanatics...I understand most of us here you think we're paid IRL chaplins. Like I said, find me in IRL forum.


I just don't understand such negative time consuming effort. I do not like the IRL brand of racing but I have no interest in going there to abuse the folks that do. I really hate to see someone come here and get slammed for making a positive comment about the ChampCar series. It's not very nice here.

The only positive thread here are the "REAL" news in Sebring as of today. But since as usual, some fanatic are way out of their league and instead of saying something positive, they drop the word IRL again. You and your buddies hate so much IRL and TG that you guys cannot even say something good without mentioning IRL. Do yuo have a problem when, us here, ask you why you think of that or make fun of how you are so one sided? Don't. You asked for it.

[Speeds up for Corners]

No. Maybe to be critical. You wouldn't have a problem with that, would you?

Maybe I would, from the point of view that everyone deserves to be acknowledged for doing the job well, not just criticisized when they don't. If you never heard anything from your boss or your customers except complaints, it would make going to work a really miserable experience.

I believe it's a two way street, you reward those who do things well, and you make sure they know when they don't.

[Speeds up for Corners]

You know, it's becoming more and more annoying to have posters like this arrive always at this time of year after the regulars have been agreeing or disagreeing all year to come up and cause a stink...you posters need to tread lightly and most definitely not highlight complaints for those of us who have lived this downfall first hand or by way of the internet on a regular basis.

You think because I am new to this forum I am new to the sport? I'd wager I've been watching CART/ Champ Car longer than you have. You don't think I remember more than 26 cars taking the green at Riverside? Folks like AJ Foyt, Salt Walther, MD (no not Mario Dominguez) etc, etc. I was at Long Beach for the first LBGP, the first F1 race there and the first CART race there. I was at Ontario for opening day. So please don't get all high and mighty on me OK.

[nanders]

Maybe I would, from the point of view that everyone deserves to be acknowledged for doing the job well, not just criticisized when they don't. If you never heard anything from your boss or your customers except complaints, it would make going to work a really miserable experience.

I believe it's a two way street, you reward those who do things well, and you make sure they know when they don't.

It is a 2 way street. I want a neutral work environment.

I expect people to do their job right and I don't want to see them till payday. That's how I reward them. The better they do their job the bigger the reward.

[Sandfly]

Find me in IRL forum....

It's hard to find anybody there - they are all here beating up on CC.

Why is that. You note that that only positive news is coming out of Sebring. Well of course. Thats where the racing is right now.

This series is about the racing product. It is not about Danica's Beaver or Helios' Banana suit.

I will certainly agree that the front office has made many errors - but a lot of folks that call themselves fans have gone out of the way to make things more difficult. I am sure we probably agree on lots of the particulars, but I can tell you that CC has the ability to build on it's racing product.

The folks I know at CC are not at all concerned about bashing the IRL. They have a program, and CC has it's own program. I am one of those that prefer the CC program, and you have seen me willing to compromise to a two division concept with some combined races and an equivilancy formula untill the equipement/rules could be defined to stimulate manufacturer and sponsor insterest. That could build quality car counts, especially for the 500, and lay the foundation for a possible combined series one day. But you and I both know that that is not an option that TG will consider. So, I am continuing to support CC in it's effort to provide the Grand Prix racing that I like to watch, and my only reason to even consider the IRL is when they spread rumor and try to undermine the structure of CC.

I believe the racing will see more and better competition this year, the TV numbers will be improved because of better shows at better times with less viewer loss to first lap yellows. Those of us who want to see every moment are kinda screwed - but I believe that the TV plan will be a better investment than just buying live TV as they were.

My main point though is just the mean spirited angry tone that folks get here sometimes. I can look at the numbers and see that someone posts a lot and/or has been here a long time. Some of them are high school kids, and some are guys that laid bricks at indianapolis. I just don't see why we can't repect the series enough to let them do the job and bring us the racing, without the constant predictions of impending doom. Having "One series" is not so important that I am willing to have it be one that looks like the IRL - and that is not an attack on them - I just don't care about watching oval races in Iowa and Kansas and wearing those Hokey Mindy hats. Anyway, you might want to go check out the IRL forum,, "everybody" says that is where we are all headed. :)

[speeddurango]

That was very well said by Robin Miller there, it's just how pathetic is it to see what a dismall management can put a great series into such a dire situation. And still you are seeing some really good drivers coming to the series I.E Frank Montagny, Perra etc and they're coming here without having a good idea about the series future.

[SoCalPVguy]

This is a heads up for everyone posting in this thread for the last day or so (and in the others as well).

If everyone, no matter what your position happens to be, doesn't stop sniping at and insulting each other there WILL be some time outs coming - starting with the next person who posts any more of this personal, back and forth garbage.

Let's get back to talking about the racing and the up coming season. Conversations about the "split" are allowed, but comments about and toward other posters are not.

"It's all about the racing, and the racing is good" or so I have been told.

[gofastandwynn]

Having "One series" is not so important that I am willing to have it be one that looks like the IRL - and that is not an attack on them - I just don't care about watching oval races in Iowa and Kansas and wearing those Hokey Mindy hats. Anyway, you might want to go check out the IRL forum,, "everybody" says that is where we are all headed. :)

Well a lot of people don't care about watching formula car racing at Laguna Seca. In fact, how much do you want to bet that there will be more people on race day at Iowa than at Laguna Seca? or Portland? And which race will have higher TV ratings, Iowa or Laguna Seca?

And I can't believe you base your opinion on a series popularity on ONE forum? (or any forum for that matter). If you do that then it is good for you that you don't post on another forum. I won't say which one, but lets just say it rhymes with trackdorum. Since no one posts in the cc forum there does that mean cc is a failure?

[Sandfly]

Well a lot of people don't care about watching formula car racing at Laguna Seca. In fact, how much do you want to bet that there will be more people on race day at Iowa than at Laguna Seca? or Portland? And which race will have higher TV ratings, Iowa or Laguna Seca?

And I can't believe you base your opinion on a series popularity on ONE forum? (or any forum for that matter). If you do that then it is good for you that you don't post on another forum. I won't say which one, but lets just say it rhymes with trackdorum. Since no one posts in the cc forum there does that mean cc is a failure?


You know what - I agree about Laguna and Portland. Not my favorite races. And you will note that Portland is on the cusp and Laguna got added in as a filler for San Jose. Even at that, they are better - to me - than watching full throttle cars going in circles waiting for the crash. Hard to know about fans and actuall paid numbers , but simply judging from what I see at the CC races I go to, I am certain that there is not a problem with attendance.

Of course, I do not base my assesment of either series on any forum -- it is 99% uninformed speculation and about 1% fact based information.

[Jacques]

Getting back to the point at hand, I still think that "Unifiers" are missing the point of TG's offer.

He, essentially, wants 5 tracks to pay him $1-2M per year. He also wants to have 3-4 new teams to commit to race in the IRL for at least 2 years, but only if they can prove that they have enough sponsorship.

RM fell for it hook, line and sinker. He can slam CC all he wants, but I still fail to see how this is going to improve OW in the US. So far, there has been only 1 team that may consider the offer .... apparently, that offer is not so sweet, simple and obvious to the people who actually do have to pay the bills. It is easier to tell others what to do with their money than to put our money where our mouth is. This does not cost RM anything ... but it does not appear to help, Coyne et al, at all; in fact, it may actually cost them quite a bit.

So, let RM slam CC again and again. It does not cost him anything to do so. I still like him, though. I just don't agree with his current view.

[weeflyonthewall]

Well a lot of people don't care about watching formula car racing at Laguna Seca. In fact, how much do you want to bet that there will be more people on race day at Iowa than at Laguna Seca? or Portland? And which race will have higher TV ratings, Iowa or Laguna Seca?

And I can't believe you base your opinion on a series popularity on ONE forum? (or any forum for that matter). If you do that then it is good for you that you don't post on another forum. I won't say which one, but lets just say it rhymes with trackdorum. Since no one posts in the cc forum there does that mean cc is a failure?

Yes we shouldn't forget those race-starved Iowa fans should we? How many fans will be there the days preceding the race? Laguna and Portland have a good turnout on Friday and Saturday. They're not Long Beach but Mazda has been encouraging a lot of changes as the venue sponsor. Maybe Laguna Seca will return to the Scott Atherton era as far as attendance.

[tbyars]

Getting back to the point at hand, I still think that "Unifiers" are missing the point of TG's offer.

Jacques, I think you are missing some points as well.


He, essentially, wants 5 tracks to pay him $1-2M per year. He also wants to have 3-4 new teams to commit to race in the IRL for at least 2 years, but only if they can prove that they have enough sponsorship.

One of the stipulations to the five races was that TG would basically pay the sanction fees for those 5 races. Granted, we don't know for how long, but that was presented as part of the offer, and has not been contradicted by anyone as of yet.

Again, to be clear, that is akin to TG simply waiving the sanction fees for those 5 races for whatever the term set up in the agreement. I can't think of any other thing that would give a promoter - be it Aquarium Aseets or Lanigan or someone else - a leg up than this happening.

As far as the teams, I don't blame him. While not specified how, he did state he is helping the teams acquire chassis and engines. I would want to make sure the teams could follow through.

Quite frankly, I'm not terribly surprised that most CCWS fans find this sort of followthrough objectionable, because it is EXACTLY this kind of CYA followthrough CCWS has lacked. That is EXACTLY why Vegas gets a one year run, Phoenix doesn't happen at all, the Asian tour has become a joke and sponsors are announced for races that become a big "oops!" CCWS did NOT insure their events, promoters and sponsors with this kind of assurances. Time and again, TG shows that he is a lot more structured and level-thinking businessman than the Amigos have ever been.


So far, there has been only 1 team that may consider the offer .... apparently, that offer is not so sweet, simple and obvious to the people who actually do have to pay the bills. It is easier to tell others what to do with their money than to put our money where our mouth is. This does not cost RM anything ... but it does not appear to help, Coyne et al, at all; in fact, it may actually cost them quite a bit.

I'm reserving judgement. Not a single green flag has dropped yet. Considering the complexion of AOWR today, I am ABSOLUTELY SURE of only one thing...and that is by the time the first races take the green, BOTH series will have undergone some significant changes from the status quo as it exists right now. Blanket statements made today about the complexion of the racing world in 6 weeks are just not very wise, IMO. All these guys are smart enough to keep their options open.

[gofastandwynn]

Yes we shouldn't forget those race-starved Iowa fans should we? How many fans will be there the days preceding the race? Laguna and Portland have a good turnout on Friday and Saturday. They're not Long Beach but Mazda has been encouraging a lot of changes as the venue sponsor. Maybe Laguna Seca will return to the Scott Atherton era as far as attendance.

So people in Iowa are not as good as people in Oregon, is that what you are trying say? Tell me, were you at Barcelona F1 testing in black face too?

And as far as the preceding days go http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/columns/story?seriesId=1&columnist=oreovicz_john&id=2916288



Iowa Speedway is a winner
After successfully avoiding the cliché all weekend, here it is: If you build it, they will come.

This much was proved by the inaugural IndyCar Series race at Iowa Speedway. The Iowa Corn Indy 250 attracted an announced crowd of 35,838, and by the SRO look of the general admission area, the final number could be higher.

Even more encouraging for the Indy Racing League, Saturday's paid attendance was more than 16,000.

It was a promising beginning for a racy new track in the heartland. Iowa Speedway is unlikely to turn into another Bristol, but the potential for considerable growth is certainly there.

"We are thrilled with the crowd, and we believe this event has a lot of momentum," said Iowa Speedway president Stan Clement.

Track access will need to be improved. There's only one route in and out, and traffic was lined up several miles to Interstate 80 less than an hour before the green flag, but the jam cleared by the time the race started.


So again, which do you think will get higher attendance and higher tv ratings? And in attendance I mean actual attendance, not the inflated ccws numbers. You got caught last time... (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_20070801/ai_n19439015/pg_1)

[Speeds up for Corners]

Well a lot of people don't care about watching formula car racing at Laguna Seca. In fact, how much do you want to bet that there will be more people on race day at Iowa than at Laguna Seca? or Portland? And which race will have higher TV ratings, Iowa or Laguna Seca?

And I can't believe you base your opinion on a series popularity on ONE forum? (or any forum for that matter). If you do that then it is good for you that you don't post on another forum. I won't say which one, but lets just say it rhymes with trackdorum. Since no one posts in the cc forum there does that mean cc is a failure?

And a lot of us would rather watch "formula car" racing at Laguna Seca than "formula car" racing in Iowa. In case you missed it, both series are spec, and I for one prefer the less contrived spec Champ Car on a road course than the IRL spec car on an oval (or anywhere else for that matter, maybe they should try drag racing.)

While there might be more people at Iowa than Laguna Seca, I doubt there will be more than at Portland. As far as TV ratings, neither series draws flies on TV, in fact according to a recent Autweek poll, ALMS smokes both series in terms of fan interest. So you IRL fans and we CC fans are sitting here arguing about who has first rights to the bottom of the barrel.

[SoCalPVguy]

And a lot of us would rather watch "formula car" racing at Laguna Seca than "formula car" racing in Iowa. In case you missed it, both series are spec, and I for one prefer the less contrived spec Champ Car on a road course than the IRL spec car on an oval (or anywhere else for that matter, maybe they should try drag racing.)

While there might be more people at Iowa than Laguna Seca, I doubt there will be more than at Portland. As far as TV ratings, neither series draws flies on TV, in fact according to a recent Autweek poll, ALMS smokes both series in terms of fan interest. So you IRL fans and we CC fans are sitting here arguing about who has first rights to the bottom of the barrel.

I though our most esteemed forum poster has already declared Laguna Seca is only good for Super Bikes...

[gofastandwynn]

And a lot of us would rather watch "formula car" racing at Laguna Seca than "formula car" racing in Iowa. In case you missed it, both series are spec, and I for one prefer the less contrived spec Champ Car on a road course than the IRL spec car on an oval (or anywhere else for that matter, maybe they should try drag racing.)

While there might be more people at Iowa than Laguna Seca, I doubt there will be more than at Portland. As far as TV ratings, neither series draws flies on TV, in fact according to a recent Autweek poll, ALMS smokes both series in terms of fan interest. So you IRL fans and we CC fans are sitting here arguing about who has first rights to the bottom of the barrel.

I know, the point was that some people in here seem to think that no one wants to watch a "formula car" race in Iowa, which is clearly not the case.

And as far as the autoweek poll, are you serious? You bring me a a voluntary response sample with less than 2500 respondents (2479 to be exact), which said F1 was twice a popular as nascar, and the alms was only 16% behind nascar, (if that were true alms should be averaging a 3.5 tv rating) and seeing how this is a US magazine that didn't send up a couple of red flags, let alone it is VRS survey? But hey, you put you faith in a voluntary response survey.

[Jacques]

Jacques, I think you are missing some points as well.

One of the stipulations to the five races was that TG would basically pay the sanction fees for those 5 races. Granted, we don't know for how long, but that was presented as part of the offer, and has not been contradicted by anyone as of yet.

Again, to be clear, that is akin to TG simply waiving the sanction fees for those 5 races for whatever the term set up in the agreement. I can't think of any other thing that would give a promoter - be it Aquarium Aseets or Lanigan or someone else - a leg up than this happening.

As far as the teams, I don't blame him. While not specified how, he did state he is helping the teams acquire chassis and engines. I would want to make sure the teams could follow through.

Quite frankly, I'm not terribly surprised that most CCWS fans find this sort of followthrough objectionable, because it is EXACTLY this kind of CYA followthrough CCWS has lacked. That is EXACTLY why Vegas gets a one year run, Phoenix doesn't happen at all, the Asian tour has become a joke and sponsors are announced for races that become a big "oops!" CCWS did NOT insure their events, promoters and sponsors with this kind of assurances. Time and again, TG shows that he is a lot more structured and level-thinking businessman than the Amigos have ever been.

I'm reserving judgement. Not a single green flag has dropped yet. Considering the complexion of AOWR today, I am ABSOLUTELY SURE of only one thing...and that is by the time the first races take the green, BOTH series will have undergone some significant changes from the status quo as it exists right now. Blanket statements made today about the complexion of the racing world in 6 weeks are just not very wise, IMO. All these guys are smart enough to keep their options open.
The problem I see is that you have to consider how he treated the original IRL teams when CART teams went over. He clearly, and publicly, stated that he would not help them if they could not stand on their own; so, if that is how he treated his loyal followers, how is he going to treat GF, NHL or KK ?
"Helping the teams" could easily mean no more than giving out "sale leads." Big deal.

My point was that if you are trying to kill the competition, you need to strike at the head. He continues to make offers that, at most, only compel some teams to "consider the offer." That is not enough : don't make them just "consider it," make it "impossible" for them to reject it.

In disagreement with you, I think that time and again TG has shown he knows very little about how to run a business. Even with Indy, he can barely stay afloat a little bit higher than CC ... that should say plenty about how much he lacks.

[nanders]

One of the stipulations to the five races was that TG would basically pay the sanction fees for those 5 races. Granted, we don't know for how long, but that was presented as part of the offer, and has not been contradicted by anyone as of yet.

Again, to be clear, that is akin to TG simply waiving the sanction fees for those 5 races for whatever the term set up in the agreement. I can't think of any other thing that would give a promoter - be it Aquarium Aseets or Lanigan or someone else - a leg up than this happening.

Can I have a link for this?

[Speeds up for Corners]

I though our most esteemed forum poster has already declared Laguna Seca is only good for Super Bikes...

Not sure who you are referring to. Certainly not me........

[Speeds up for Corners]

I know, the point was that some people in here seem to think that no one wants to watch a "formula car" race in Iowa, which is clearly not the case.

And as far as the autoweek poll, are you serious? You bring me a a voluntary response sample with less than 2500 respondents (2479 to be exact), which said F1 was twice a popular as nascar, and the alms was only 16% behind nascar, (if that were true alms should be averaging a 3.5 tv rating) and seeing how this is a US magazine that didn't send up a couple of red flags, let alone it is VRS survey? But hey, you put you faith in a voluntary response survey.

You missed the point, which was that according to those who responded, and the Autoweek demographic is educated, informed, with a high income, CC and the IRL are at the bottom of the list. The poll does not represent itself to be a scientific survey of the American motorsport fan.

[gofastandwynn]

You missed the point, which was that according to those who responded, and the Autoweek demographic is educated, informed, with a high income, CC and the IRL are at the bottom of the list. The poll does not represent itself to be a scientific survey of the American motorsport fan.

Oh really, I didn't know you had to be of such esteemed individual to read autoweek. Of course it wasn't a magazine poll, it was online so anyone could vote.

I think you missed the point, a voluntary response survey means nothing in the real world because they carry a response bias. Here (http://books.google.com/books?id=9auB5enlp2AC&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=voluntary+response+sample&source=web&ots=eFql4H2Wa-&sig=xydHivYQz5inrFU5BzNIC6_PsUs)
For example, there is a online pool on another website that I can't post because it is on a "rival website" (but I will give it to you if you PM me) which asks readers to grade the 2007 champ car season. 74.3% gave it an F and 88% giving it a D or F w/ over 8100 votes. You know what that means? NOTHING!!!!

[Cart750hp]

In disagreement with you, I think that time and again TG has shown he knows very little about how to run a business. Even with Indy, he can barely stay afloat a little bit higher than CC ... that should say plenty about how much he lacks.

That should say plenty about how CC should've outdone IRL for the longest time now. Why CC cannot do a better business plan than this lousy TG guy that mostly everyone hated? Sure, TG isnt a good businessman instead a hated man.....but, he must be doing something right. I agree, IRL only has I500 on their schedule that is enough to keep the series afloat yet CC has Long Beach, Toronto, Surfers, Cleveland....and still cannot do a better job than IRL and still the series cannot improve every year. So much for a lousy businessman.

[Jacques]

That should say plenty about how CC should've outdone IRL for the longest time now. Why CC cannot do a better business plan than this lousy TG guy that mostly everyone hated? Sure, TG isnt a good businessman instead a hated man.....but, he must be doing something right. I agree, IRL only has I500 on their schedule that is enough to keep the series afloat yet CC has Long Beach, Toronto, Surfers, Cleveland....and still cannot do a better job than IRL and still the series cannot improve every year. So much for a lousy businessman.

Just because Businessman A is lousy, it doesn't mean that Businessman B, by default, becomes Successful.
You seem top believe that if CC were run competently that it would, then, flourish. Why do you believe that ? Is it because you like auto racing ? Maybe you do, but plenty of other people don't; at least, not OW racing.
How strong and stable was CART to begin with ? Indy ? Maybe, it was the package itself that was better than then the parts it was made of. Once the package was broken, the whole thing fell apart. And ..... you know what ? .... maybe, it cannot be put back together again.

No matter how lousy Businessman A may be, TG takes the cake ... he is worse than the Coke CEO with his idea for a "new Coke."

[Cart750hp]

Just because Businessman A is lousy, it doesn't mean that Businessman B, by default, becomes Successful.
You seem top believe that if CC were run competently that it would, then, flourish. Why do you believe that ? Is it because you like auto racing ? Maybe you do, but plenty of other people don't; at least, not OW racing.
How strong and stable was CART to begin with ? Indy ? Maybe, it was the package itself that was better than then the parts it was made of. Once the package was broken, the whole thing fell apart. And ..... you know what ? .... maybe, it cannot be put back together again.

No matter how lousy Businessman A may be, TG takes the cake ... he is worse than the Coke CEO with his idea for a "new Coke."

You brought up TG as a lousy businessman yet you came up with "if's", "maybe's" and bunch of questions to yourself. No clue why you had to quote my post.

We get it. This is more of you hating TG than being an open minded to the available options to possibly improve CC and AOWR, short run or long run.

[LTalbot]

I think we can all agree that TG's decision to split from CART and start the IRL in the first place was a bone headed move that is right up there at the top of bone headed business moves. It has not improved TG's fortunes or those of anyone else in indycar/champcar racing, with the possible exception of Newman/Haas, but I doubt that improving his bottom line was even in his thought processes. However, it's hard to fault TG on some other business decisions he has made with respect to IMS and the IRL.

Bringing in the Brickyard 400, the USGP and the MotoGP were/are all good business decisions. Even deciding to abandon the USGP this year rather than pay Bernie the outrageous fees was a good business decision. Also adding road and street courses back in the IRL schedule was a good business decision and in most cases has delivered exciting on-track events. What you cannot argue that TG and his family are racers. This is one thing you cannot say about the ChampCar management. For most, if not all of them, this thing is a hobby. So who would you rather have in charge? The racer who has made some bad decisions but has learned and tried to adjust, or the rich guy hobbiest who only cares about the bottom line? I think the fan has more in common with the racer.

[Jacques]

You brought up TG as a lousy businessman yet you came up with "if's", "maybe's" and bunch of questions to yourself. No clue why you had to quote my post.

We get it. This is more of you hating TG than being an open minded to the available options to possibly improve CC and AOWR, short run or long run.

Why does every post have to have the word "hate" or a derivative thereof ? Just b/c people disagree with you, it does not mean that they do it b/c of hate. All you offer are "maybes," "ifs," "perhaps," "hopefully," that if we join, we may do better. You want to join ? Go ahead and join.

Ask Rahal, Fernandez or Nunn how well things went for them when they joined the IRL. Ask Cheever, Sharp or Foyt about what a merger meant for them.

What will you do when you are not fighting CC fanatics ? Will you pick a fight with IRL fans who are angry at all the road and street circuits coming their way ? Will you accuse them of harboring hate toward CART et al ?

NO ONE has shown how this will help OW. In fact, recent reports/rumors are that Honda will be leaving and that is why TG sought a compromise with CC. But, go ahead and join; let's see what tune you'll be singing in 3 years.

[Jacques]

I think we can all agree that TG's decision to split from CART and start the IRL in the first place was a bone headed move that is right up there at the top of bone headed business moves. It has not improved TG's fortunes or those of anyone else in indycar/champcar racing, with the possible exception of Newman/Haas, but I doubt that improving his bottom line was even in his thought processes. However, it's hard to fault TG on some other business decisions he has made with respect to IMS and the IRL.

Bringing in the Brickyard 400, the USGP and the MotoGP were/are all good business decisions. Even deciding to abandon the USGP this year rather than pay Bernie the outrageous fees was a good business decision. Also adding road and street courses back in the IRL schedule was a good business decision and in most cases has delivered exciting on-track events. What you cannot argue that TG and his family are racers. This is one thing you cannot say about the ChampCar management. For most, if not all of them, this thing is a hobby. So who would you rather have in charge? The racer who has made some bad decisions but has learned and tried to adjust, or the rich guy hobbiest who only cares about the bottom line? I think the fan has more in common with the racer.

What if that racer has lost 75 % of the company's customers ?

Just because TG has more money than CC, due to profit from Indy and the Brickyard, it does not mean that he has done any good for OW.

He has a lot more resources, but he still managed to lose 75 % of the customers .... and he has not been able to make any new customers .... in 12 years !!

If the fan has more in common with that racer, that will at least explain why the US customer is adrift in debt.

[nanders]

Why does every post have to have the word "hate" or a derivative thereof ? Just b/c people disagree with you, it does not mean that they do it b/c of hate. All you offer are "maybes," "ifs," "perhaps," "hopefully," that if we join, we may do better. You want to join ? Go ahead and join.

Ask Rahal, Fernandez or Nunn how well things went for them when they joined the IRL. Ask Cheever, Sharp or Foyt about what a merger meant for them.

What will you do when you are not fighting CC fanatics ? Will you pick a fight with IRL fans who are angry at all the road and street circuits coming their way ? Will you accuse them of harboring hate toward CART et al ?

NO ONE has shown how this will help OW. In fact, recent reports/rumors are that Honda will be leaving and that is why TG sought a compromise with CC. But, go ahead and join; let's see what tune you'll be singing in 3 years.

Aren't those Honda engins really Ilmore's? Didn't Penske buy back into Ilmore? So if Honda goes it's no big deal.

[garyshell]

Aren't those Honda engins really Ilmore's? Didn't Penske buy back into Ilmore? So if Honda goes it's no big deal.

Except Roger isn't likely to be willing to right the same size check to "...king George" as Honda was.

Gary

[Jacques]

Aren't those Honda engins really Ilmore's? Didn't Penske buy back into Ilmore? So if Honda goes it's no big deal.

Engines has never been a problem. Even CART almost went with Judd.
The problem is with Honda's funding and support, or lack thereof.

I just believe that this union will not solve the issues facing OW. We will be essentially back at 95, but with no fans and no sponsors. Furthermore, Nascar is so far ahead it is no longer a joke. On top of that, we now have to deal with ALMS and, to a lesser extent, GrandAm.
TG has had 4-5 years to make something of St. Pete, Sonoma and WG. What has he done ? What, then, can he do for LB, Mexico or Toronto ? Outside of crossing one's fingers and taunting those who disagree with Unification, I see no one dealing with those problems/questions.

It does not affect me, because it was never personal to me. Not back in 95 and not now. If I like it, I'll watch. Otherwise, I have F1, ALMS, Atlantics and GP2 .... I'll be busy ;)

[SoCalPVguy]

Jacques, et al...
You are wrong about our Friend TG, "BY THE RESULTS" - if he was so incompetent as you suggest, surely slick big time business men like KK and GF would have crushed him by now. Between the old CART series and the new CCWS they have had 13 years to put out a better promotion for a better racing product and have consitently failed. Possibly, consider TG is not as stupid as you think.

He has the 8,000-lbs. gorilla, the "Indy 500" and anyone who had that asset would have enventually beat back all challengers.

Not to defend what TG did in 1995, but the big dog, i.e. I-500 makes the rules in nature and it is time to get past it, get all of OW racing under one tent, move on and "let's ALL go racing together" !!!

[Chaparral66]

Can't we all just race along...?

[Jacques]

Jacques, et al...
You are wrong about our Friend TG, "BY THE RESULTS" - if he was so incompetent as you suggest, surely slick big time business men like KK and GF would have crushed him by now. Between the old CART series and the new CCWS they have had 13 years to put out a better promotion for a better racing product and have consitently failed. Possibly, consider TG is not as stupid as you think.

He has the 8,000-lbs. gorilla, the "Indy 500" and anyone who had that asset would have enventually beat back all challengers.

Not to defend what TG did in 1995, but the big dog, i.e. I-500 makes the rules in nature and it is time to get past it, get all of OW racing under one tent, move on and "let's ALL go racing together" !!!

It is because of that gorilla that he has managed to stay afloat. That does NOT mean that he has succeeded.

For 12 years, the IRL ratings have gone down.
For 12 years, the IRL track attendance has gone down.
Now, the IRL is even finding difficult to have 18 cars on its grid.

How can you call that success ? The average CC tv rating is of 0.6, while the IRL gets a 1.1 rating. Both keep going down every year. In 2008, the average IRL race will most likely go into the 0.9 range. Just b/c he is higher than CC, it does not mean that he has succeeded. It is Indy that delays the same fate for the IRL; but it only delays it, it does not prevent it.

I have never been against racing under one tent; I just don't believe that is the solution to today's issues.

[SoCalPVguy]

I
How can you call that success ?


I never used the word "success" and it's still better than the amigos have done w/ CCWS

[Cart750hp]

Can't we all just race along...?

I'm up for that.

[gofastandwynn]

Can't we all just race along...?

I got chinese food tonight and I swear to God my fortune cookie said:

"Friends long absent are coming back to you."

Now if that is not a sign, I don't know what is...


It also says my lucky numbers are 16, 18, 28, 30, 36, 37 and that "Wo-Shou" means "Shake Hand"...

[jimispeed]

I got chinese food tonight and I swear to God my fortune cookie said:

"Friends long absent are coming back to you."

Now if that is not a sign, I don't know what is...


It also says my lucky numbers are 16, 18, 28, 30, 36, 37 and that "Wo-Shou" means "Shake Hand"...

Quick, find out what drivers carry those numbers!!

[gofastandwynn]

Quick, find out what drivers carry those numbers!!

Um...actually looking around the only one of those numbers in use is the 28 by Pacific Coast Motorsports 2nd car...

[Jacques]

I never used the word "success" and it's still better than the amigos have done w/ CCWS

OK. Is that all ? Read your favorite writer, then. Even RM writes that TG looks good, but only when compared to CC.
Once again, you are jumping off the Titanic to go on board the Lusitania. You are just delaying the inevitable.
But, go ahead. It is your decision to make.