TG pulls the offer.

[seppefan]

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080128/SPORTS0107/801280351/1052/SPORTS01

The window of opportunity has closed for Champ Car World Series teams to receive Tony George's financial assistance to join the Indy Racing League for 2008, George said Sunday.
http://www.indystar.com/graphics/clear.gifhttp://www.indystar.com/graphics/clear.gif
George, the IRL's chief executive officer, said that in meetings last fall with Champ Car's leadership, he offered to help its teams pay for IRL cars on the condition they participated in his series for at least two seasons. When none came forward in a timely manner, George chose to scrap his plan.
"Teams started coming to me in December and January, and there's not much I can do at that point," George said. "I needed to know earlier so we could get the cars ordered."
Champ Car co-owner Kevin Kalkhoven said George never formally made an offer to either him or partner Jerry Forsythe.
"I never, ever saw an offer from Tony George," Kalkhoven said. "We never received anything in writing."
Champ Car's machines are different from the IRL's and not able to be integrated. George said the two-year stipulation was made because the IRL will introduce new cars (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080128/SPORTS0107/801280351/1052/SPORTS01#) for the 2010 season.
"For me to make the investment, it makes sense to do it for two years, not one," George said.
George said his offer came "back when there was time to do it for '08."
The IRL season begins March 29 at Homestead-Miami Speedway. Champ Car's season is scheduled to open April 20 in Long Beach, Calif.
There have been two open-wheel series since George founded the IRL in 1996. Both are based in Indianapolis.
George said he told Kalkhoven and Forsythe in separate meetings that he would help teams acquire a new car (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080128/SPORTS0107/801280351/1052/SPORTS01#) and a used one as a backup for each full-season driver supported by a proper budget. He would not have bought the cars outright.
"I wasn't going to wholesale make that offer," George said. "I would make sure they had equipment; it would not necessarily be free."
Forsythe could not be reached for comment. Kalkhoven insisted he hasn't spoken with George "in nine months."
George said he made it clear the IRL would be the sanctioning body in a unified series. He offered to include several of the events that Kalkhoven and Forsythe own, such as the Long Beach (Calif.) Grand Prix, in future IRL schedules.
"I tried to get all those guys to consider not having ownership in the series; rather, they should make their other racing-related businesses a more profitable part of a unified series," George said. "I told them, 'Let us own and operate the series, and we'll make sure everyone is able to transition into equipment for the remainder useful life of the equipment.'
++++++++++++++

So Carl Haas said he was going over in 09. Seems 10 will be the year. TG can offer cars cheap top those coming over and bye bye CC. Who will be on the CC grid in 09 let alone this year.

COME ON KK YOU'VE BEEN SPOOKED,MAULED IN PUBLIC. TIME FOR YOUR LAST STRATEGIC STANCE. TG is obviously full of s*+t and now is the last chance saloon to GET IT RIGHT. Put back the $2m NOW.

Is this all too boring or should we be laughing.

[jwhite9185]

Looks like TG is now playing the waiting game. Im all for 1 series, but theres something about TG i just dont trust. If he had total control i worry about the whole series being screwed up even more than it is already. The only way it could work is if GF/KK are in charge of the races and TG just looks after the 500 and advises the others. Either way the whole situation is a mess.

The only other way to completely make it fair is to have a 3rd party come in, (Mario Andretti??) make another series and start completely from scratch.

[Andrewmcm]

Shame. I've got to the point where I would like to see one series, and I really couldn't care less who owns it. Mind you, Pandora is now out of her box, and it will be interesting to see a) if any teams defect to the IRL anyway, and b) how many of the current CCWS teams actually make it to the starting grid this year. I wonder if sponsor pressure to run the 500 will push teams to moving anyway, regardless of having to purchase machinery?

I guess the crux of the issue is whether it is more financially viable for teams to switch to the IRL now in the expectation that it will be the basis of the "unified series", or will teams be able to last 2008 and 2009 in Champ Car without going under?

[RaceFanStan]

Tony George is a shrewd businessman.
I imagine his next offer won't be so generous.
If CC & IRL do unite under one banner it could be a great day in openwheel racing. :D

[RightTurnClyde]

Yeah, thanks for uniting the series that TG split apart. Open wheel owes him a huge debt of gratitude on this.

[Blancvino]

Tony George is a shrewd businessman.
racing. :D

Please ... Shrewd?

He reminds of the punk kid with all the money in the movie Billy Jack.

His record for pulling the rug out at the last minute is pretty well documented.

[Rex Monaco]

George said the two-year stipulation was made because the IRL will introduce new cars (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080128/SPORTS0107/801280351/1052/SPORTS01#) for the 2010 season.
"For me to make the investment, it makes sense to do it for two years, not one," George said.

It sounds to me like he needs more people in his league to justify the investment in a new car for 2010. And maybe also he needs those people to keep his engine deal.

If I were a team owner, I'd hold out out until 2010 and see if the IRL is still around. That's if CCWS can live that long on life support.

[ozobitis]

Just more PR moves by TG to put CC in a darker light while they are down !

If TG thinks that hardcore Cart/CC fans will come back ,in droves ,to a TG controlled/run unified series, he is mistaken!! I love my racing and CC is my #1 choice. I also love oval track racing which I miss from CC but I get my fix at local short tracks with Sprints and stocks. If TG becomes the Supreme Grand Puba of OW ,than , I like many others will start attending more ALMS etc. races but not the New TGOWS .
Just my opinion but I know many who think the same way!!! I will drive 5 hours and spend 3 nights and many $$$ to support and enjoy CC but not One Dollar to bail TG out of a mess he created.

I will "PULL THE PLUG " on TG.

[indycool]

His statement in The Star's story was not unrealistic. This was apparently discussed back in November and December. THEN, it may have been realistic in some form. TODAY, it's not enough time. IMO, makes sense to me.

[PSfan]

Ok, So can someone tell me tell me what the offer was?

Free cars and engines?
No...

some plan for unification?
Apperantly not, or else there wouldn't be a 2 year stipulation.

Must be Tony waving his finders fee for setting up teams with 1 new chassis, and 1 used chassis for a spare... that must be it...

[nanders]

Shame. I've got to the point where I would like to see one series, and I really couldn't care less who owns it. Mind you, Pandora is now out of her box, and it will be interesting to see


a) if any teams defect to the IRL anyway,

May be too late. From Conquest and Walkers reaction they may have been kept in the dark or are fibbing.


and b) how many of the current CCWS teams actually make it to the starting grid this year.

Especially if they think others around them are defecting or folding. The old "why bother" syndrome might stick it's head up. They can't sell those cars anywhere so they might run.


I wonder if sponsor pressure to run the 500 will push teams to moving anyway, regardless of having to purchase machinery?

If I were a champcar team owner, I would have been running the 500 no matter what anybody else did.


I guess the crux of the issue is whether it is more financially viable for teams to switch to the IRL now in the expectation that it will be the basis of the "unified series", or will teams be able to last 2008 and 2009 in Champ Car without going under?

With what I've read today I would say they probably are now going to wait it until 2010. Now we have somewhat of a drop dead date to consolidation.

With what I've read today I would say they probably are now going to wait it until 2010.

I was about to type that it looks like my trip to Indy in 09 (major birthday landmark year, if you must know the reason) will not take in a unified AOWR scene.

But then I remembered that we still have to get through 08 without anymore complications, so I live in hope.

[SarahFan]

His statement in The Star's story was not unrealistic. This was apparently discussed back in November and December. THEN, it may have been realistic in some form. TODAY, it's not enough time. IMO, makes sense to me.

can you give a single PLAUSIBLE and/or GOOD reason why kk and GF would have brought this offer to CC teams to jump ship to the IRL without something solid and concrete in writing that events such as LB and TO were secure Long term....

[heelntoe]

can you give a single PLAUSIBLE and/or GOOD reason why kk and GF would have brought this offer to CC teams to jump ship to the IRL without something solid and concrete in writing that events such as LB and TO were secure Long term....

One reason would be to make sure they were on the same page with Carl Haas so he wasn't talking freely and directly to TG on his own. I don't think TG had any other intention than to try and get the teams moved over that could afford to do so and leave the struggling ones to where they will end up anyway...just my opinion.

[Jacques]

How many times has TG done this to CART and CC ?
How many times can one trust an individual who pulls the rug from under you at the last second ?

What happened to all these "insiders," in this forum, and their predictions ?

In order to qualify for TG's offer, a team had to come with reasonable support, for 2 years, because the offer was not free. And then some "insiders" wonder why Coyne and Bachelart are hesitant to cross over !

What happened to RM's article ? Free engines ?

Apparently, CC goes on !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SarahFan]

One reason would be to make sure they were on the same page with Carl Haas so he wasn't talking freely and directly to TG on his own. I don't think TG had any other intention than to try and get the teams moved over that could afford to do so and leave the struggling ones to where they will end up anyway...just my opinion.

and it's sorta kinda apparant CH knew something....

but why would KK and GF broker the ccws to the IRL for essentially nothing?


this is just more of the same....management from both sides being completely clueless...

[Rogelio]

A part of my was elated thinking the split might end. Then again, a unified series with TG in charge would have been rather frightening. Imagine if the Amigos (rather difficult) can somehow turn the tide this year and next, then they would be much better off when it came to negotiating a unified series. I think most of us would agree that TG had no desire to revamp Champ Car's beloved tracks. His ultimate goal was to win the war in attrition. Likewise, the Amigos would have probably done the same to the IRL, that is if the tables were turned. We take the Indy 500 and let the other races fall into oblivion.

Therefore, I believe that Champ Car/teams are better off this year. If the Amigos can somehow right the ship, then they will hold more bargaining power. In the meantime, CC will continue floundering like a wounded duck. Oh well...

[keysersoze]

If TG thinks that hardcore Cart/CC fans will come back ,in droves ,to a TG controlled/run unified series, he is mistaken!!

If open wheel racing is to be rejuvenated to the level it was in the 70s and 80s, it can't be overly concerned with us, the "hardcore fans." Catering to hardcore fans get you delayed, highly edited coverage on ESPN6 or 8 at 2:30 on a Monday morning. It needs a very large fanbase of casual fans. Not everybody who attends (American) football games belongs to a fantasy league.

[SarahFan]

If open wheel racing is to be rejuvenated to the level it was in the 70s and 80s, it can't be overly concerned with us, the "hardcore fans." Catering to hardcore fans get you delayed, highly edited coverage on ESPN6 or 8 at 2:30 on a Monday morning. It needs a very large fanbase of casual fans. Not everybody who attends (American) football games belongs to a fantasy league.

exactly.....get the guy flippin channels to stop.....and get him to say yes i want to spend $100 to go see them when they come to town...

[PSfan]

One reason would be to make sure they were on the same page with Carl Haas so he wasn't talking freely and directly to TG on his own. I don't think TG had any other intention than to try and get the teams moved over that could afford to do so and leave the struggling ones to where they will end up anyway...just my opinion.

Sorry, but this article practically proves that Haas' comments where taken out of context.

TG says he had teams coming to him in December and January, which was to late... implies that if their was any real negotiating taking place it would have been October - November... However NHL in late October made a few press releases confirming that for 08 they where fully commited to champcar, and any rumor suggesting a switch for 08 was false...

[Blancvino]

His statement in The Star's story was not unrealistic. This was apparently discussed back in November and December. THEN, it may have been realistic in some form. TODAY, it's not enough time. IMO, makes sense to me.

But Rahal and Fernandez had time to get equipment when they tried to kill Champcar? Makes one wonder ...

[SarahFan]

can you give a single PLAUSIBLE and/or GOOD reason why kk and GF would have brought this offer to CC teams to jump ship to the IRL without something solid and concrete in writing that events such as LB and TO were secure Long term....


IC.......?


can you?

[indycool]

Links to those, PSF?

[indycool]

Ken, sounds to me like an offer was made verbally that (in Miller's commentary, anyway) included the other events. Why bother either of them to ask their attorneys to reduce those thoughts to writing if Forsythe killed it by insisting on $100 million?

[SarahFan]

Ken, sounds to me like an offer was made verbally that (in Miller's commentary, anyway) included the other events. Why bother either of them to ask their attorneys to reduce those thoughts to writing if Forsythe killed it by insisting on $100 million?


TG made no reference of the 100mil....didn't even hint at it...

[PSfan]

Links to those, PSF?


Sorry, stannd corrected, early October:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newman/Haas end IRL rumour

Friday, October 5th 2007

Newman/Haas/Lanigan Racing have moved to refute rumours that the team could switch to the IndyCar Series next year.

Earlier this week, the team also felt compelled to put out a one-line press release stating "Newman/Haas/Lanigan Racing is committed to the Champ Car World Series."

A senior source within Champ Car added that the team's move would never happen while [co-founder] Paul Newman remained on the team. Newman has long been regarded as Champ Car's most loyal supporter.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63049
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

[indycool]

Miller's commentary did. Fine, PSF. Newman is reportedly retiring, depending on who you hear what from. This is four months later. Did the position change? Time will tell.

[gofastandwynn]

MILLER: TG Will Win OW's Game of Monopoly
Written by: Robin Miller Indianapolis, Ind. – 1/28/2008

Carl Haas and Paul Newman agree it's way past time to make peace with Tony George. Derrick Walker says "anything" Champ Car can do to unify open wheel racing is a "no-brainer." Jimmy Vasser was emphatic when he said his series has "got to find a way" to do a deal with the IRL founder. Keith Wiggins might already be in the IRL if he still had his own team.

So, if all these CART Lifers understand the reality of the situation, then why are Gerry Forsythe and Kevin Kalkhoven still kidding themselves?

Why in the name of Joe Heitzler wouldn't they accept George's gracious offer to give them cars and engines for 2008, plus put five of their key races on the IRL schedule and pay them a sanction fee?

Why wouldn't they want to be part of the Indianapolis 500, where maybe they could get enough exposure to score a sponsor?

Why wouldn't they want to stop spending millions of dollars to be a stepchild on ESPN and ABC?

Why wouldn't they want to stop throwing away millions to promote races that lose millions?

Why wouldn't they want to stop the bleeding of a sport that's been all but left for dead?

Because, my friends, they aren't racers.

They don't care about what's good for everyone who makes a living driving or working on cars, or the die-hard fans who still shell out money to support this dysfunctional genre of auto racing.

They don't care that their supposed three-year plan was a financial farce, painted in red and camouflaged by phoney, three-day crowd figures.

They don't care that they're the laughing stock of motorsports, that their front office is amateur hour and they take advice from one of the least respected men in any paddock on this planet.

And, obviously, they don't care about the future.

Now, I've always praised Forsythe for his loyalty to Champ Car and his willingness to spend his own money. Nobody, save TG, has spent more on open wheel racing in the past decade.

But, as smart as he is in the business world, Forsythe doesn't seem to have a similar acumen in racing. Impulsive and impatient, he changes drivers and crews as often as he changes his mind and then wonders why he can't beat Newman/Haas(/Lanigan). Supposedly, he's refused to take sponsorship unless it's big money like CART got in its heyday.

He also seems to have no passion for racing per se, usually only showing up on race mornings. Last year he only went to the first three races and never came back. Why spend $20 million not to go watch?

On the flip side, Kalkhoven genuinely likes the racing, the atmosphere and the whole weekend of interacting with people. He also loves being interviewed and quoted, something Gerry doesn't.

When they saved CART in bankruptcy court four years ago, many of us were optimistic that Kevin could really do some good. He had no baggage with TGeorge and he didn't seem like the standard car owner who would say anything to avoid the truth.

In their first two years, Forsythe and Kalkoven made some good decisions (securing Long Beach and Toronto, buying Cosworth and Pi, hiring Tony Cotman), and this California-to-Chicago partnership seemed to be working.

But there's been a big disconnect the past two years.

They may be putting on a good act lately, but Forsythe, Dan Pettit (who made his fortune as Kalkhoven's partner before their friendship cooled) and Paul Gentilozzi have made a sport out of out-voting Kalkhoven on just about everything.

Don't you find it interesting that two guys with minimum investments (Gentilozzi and Pettit) accompanied Forsythe to last November's meetings with George but Kalkhoven wasn't there?

Or is it more surprising to learn that Vasser, Walker, Bachelart and Wiggins claim they didn't know about George's blanket offer until I called them last week?

Unlike the days when Dick Eidswick ran the office from Monday-Friday, there is no leadership in the Champ Car office and no communication. Morale is at an all-time low and there is nothing resembling a game plan unless you count the failed Far East strategy.

Kalkhoven's barking about 20-24 new Panoz chassis on the grid in 2007 turned out to be hot air. Their new owners/promoters/partners in Las Vegas and Phoenix lost a fortune in April and were gone before September. The musical chairs in Forsythe's team alone was almost as amateurish as the never-ending driver swap in the paddock. Or the fact that most of the drivers weren't announced until the engines started at Long Beach. Or those two six-week gaps in the '07 schedule.

Those are some of the reasons Haas approached George about switching sides. That's correct, the co-owner of Champ Car's premier team went to the IRL leader because he, Newman and Mike Lanigan are troubled about the lack of professionalism, lack of communication and lack of anything resembling a future.

Ditto for the small Champ Car owners, who wonder how they can operate on tawdry purses with no sponsorship.

George has been beaten up constantly in this space (and rightly so) since 1996 but he's no longer the bad guy. His offer appears to have been as sensible as it was viable and nobody can say anymore that he's trying to block unification.

Now let's be up front. TG has easily spent $300 million keeping the IRL afloat the past 12 years and his car count for 2008 is south of 18 at the moment. Adding the Champ Car teams would strengthen his grid, deepen his competition and make qualifying at Indy mean something again.

It's as good, if not better, for the IRL as it is for Champ Car, whose teams would likely get kicked this season but be back of equal footing in 2009 or 2010 when George's series has new cars. In the meantime, it would be great for open wheel racing.

Had an agreement been reached back in November, there already could have been a press conference with Graham Rahal sitting next to Marco Andretti and Paul Tracy trading barbs with Dan Wheldon. George was willing to accommodate Long Beach, Toronto, Edmonton, Australia and Mexico City in 2008 and switch his schedule around. It could have been 19 races, all with live television and a buzz about a new era.

Now it's not probably going to happen until at least 2009. If then.

The word is that Forsythe put a fork in the deal unless George agreed to pay $100 million over 10 years.

So you see this doesn't have anything to do with left-foot braking, outside passes, rewarding the fans, improving the product or trying to restore all that was right with Indy-style racing in the mid-90s.

This is evidently about saving face, not saving open wheel racing because Forsythe must figure if he gets Tony to pay, he and Kalkhoven will look like winners.

But the real bottom line is that racing is a way of life for George and his family. He's not going away and he's got the only open wheel race that anybody in this country still cares about. He's also got the Brickyard 400 to pay for Indy cars.

It's not a way of life for Forsythe and Kalkhoven: it's a hobby, albeit an expensive one. It couldn't be a business or else they wouldn't run it so poorly.

No, this is all about ego and power and rich guys playing Monopoly with a sport many of us treasure.

But, until those two realize Tony George has Boardwalk and Park Place, open wheel is going to be screwed.



Wow...

[Andrewmcm]

That'll ruffle a few feathers! Although I do agree with everything he says.

[jimispeed]

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080128/SPORTS0107/801280351/1052/SPORTS01


George said he made it clear the IRL would be the sanctioning body in a unified series. He offered to include several of the events that Kalkhoven and Forsythe own, such as the Long Beach (Calif.) Grand Prix, in future IRL schedules.
"I tried to get all those guys to consider not having ownership in the series; rather, they should make their other racing-related businesses a more profitable part of a unified series," George said. "I told them, 'Let us own and operate the series, and we'll make sure everyone is able to transition into equipment for the remainder useful life of the equipment.'



What an insult!! He's an A**Hole!!

I say Champcar turn around and offer him the same thing!!

(Hasn't Champcar tried a few times to bring both series together in a fair, and unified way?!!)

A now hate TG even more!!!!



Champcar, just put a few ovals on the schedule, and call it good.



It's never going to be worth trying to unify fairly with #%^&*%%#%*&&!!

[Pat Wiatrowski]

What offer? Bullll!
As usual this time of year.

[Jacques]

So, TG refuses to pay $10M per year, for 10 years, so as to appease CC's owners and yet, he is willing to spend a lot more than that in order to prove his point.
How can people say that is no longer to blame ?
He started the split and he is willing to continue spending his fortune out of spite. He is continuing the split.

[Chris R]

ouch - very hard hitting and very true.... :(

[Andrewmcm]

But Rahal and Fernandez had time to get equipment when they tried to kill Champcar? Makes one wonder ...

Well this is the fundamental question. If one takes what Miller says at face value then quite a few team owners are not overly chuffed about how things are shaping up at CCWS. Some strategic defections nearer to the start of the season will leave CCWS with around a dozen cars and no credibility. Will the team owners go around the CCWS owners and leave the series dead in the water? As I posted elsewhere I wonder how financially viable it is for the teams to stay afloat in CCWS till 2010, or is it more beneficial to go to the IRL and take the financial strain of buying new equipment and playing catch-up?

[Chris R]

If Miller's number are right another $100 million out of pocket doesn't seem like a smart move to me - I can't blame TG for walking away from that....

If GF wanted $10 million TOTAL, TG would be the bad guy - but I am hard pressed to see where OWRS is worth anything like $100 million...

You also have to consider that TG most likely believes, very reasonably, that if he waits it out another 1 to 12 months he'll get the whole deal for next to nothing - why would he pay $100 million in those circumstances??? The man is clearly no rocket scientist - but he is apparently brighter than the Amigos when it comes to RACING business....


I think Robin is right on this one (again, assuming all the "facts" stated in his article are correct) - it might have always been TG's fault in the past - but not this time.....

[Chris R]

Well this is the fundamental question. If one takes what Miller says at face value then quite a few team owners are not overly chuffed about how things are shaping up at CCWS. Some strategic defections nearer to the start of the season will leave CCWS with around a dozen cars and no credibility. Will the team owners go around the CCWS owners and leave the series dead in the water? As I posted elsewhere I wonder how financially viable it is for the teams to stay afloat in CCWS till 2010, or is it more beneficial to go to the IRL and take the financial strain of buying new equipment and playing catch-up?

Reading between the lines it sort of sounds like the teams are damned if they do and damned if they don't - depends who comes up with the best financial aide package......

[Sandfly]

Tg is obviously talking to himself, and Robin Miller. this is BS. Why would CC want to go to Iowa and Kansas, and run circles in death trap yard darts.

This whole thing is TG looking for cars. His has no right to demand control of open wheel racing and he will not get it.

Tony wanted it to be about ovals and NOBODY CARES.

Oval racing in open wheel cars outside of Indianapolis is gone/over/done. ( apart from the real race cars - sprints, etc) And Indy is now just another race track that used to be the Mecca of open wheel racing. Nice work TG. And you want to screw up road racing now too, just so you can have enough cars for your crappy race. No Thanks!!

[PSfan]

Tg is obviously talking to himself, and Robin Miller.

Actually, its rather obvious that TG in not talking to Robin Miller:

RM says TG was gonna give free Cars/Engines
TG says Not free

RM says it was a blanket offer
TG says "I wasn't going to wholesale make that offer,"

RM thinks it was legit offer to save AOWR
I think it was a big waste of time - champcar teams being expected to have bought new car 3 times in 4 years!!!

[nanders]

"MILLER: TG Will Win OW's Game of Monopoly
Written by: Robin Miller Indianapolis, Ind. – 1/28/2008

Carl Haas and Paul Newman agree it's way past time to make peace with Tony George. Derrick Walker says "anything" Champ Car can do to unify open wheel racing is a "no-brainer." Jimmy Vasser was emphatic when he said his series has "got to find a way" to do a deal with the IRL founder. Keith Wiggins might already be in the IRL if he still had his own team.

So, if all these CART Lifers understand the reality of the situation, then why are Gerry Forsythe and Kevin Kalkhoven still kidding themselves?

Why in the name of Joe Heitzler wouldn't they accept George's gracious offer to give them cars and engines for 2008, plus put five of their key races on the IRL schedule and pay them a sanction fee? ................ "

When was the last time a series/series owner ever paid a venue a sanctioning fee? Can't you people see how much speculation is in this? Half of what he has written here is devoid of fact. This is a "hack" job.

Miller is lying through his teeth. Most of this article is pure speculation and he's putting allot words into allot peoples mouths.

I'm on the side of getting the series together but Miller is on acid or something.

[anthonyvop]

What offer?
Why does anybody listen to what Robin Miller has to say? The man has been discredited over and over again.

[Chaparral66]

What offer?
Why does anybody listen to what Robin Miller has to say? The man has been discredited over and over again.

How?

[Chaparral66]

His statement in The Star's story was not unrealistic. This was apparently discussed back in November and December. THEN, it may have been realistic in some form. TODAY, it's not enough time. IMO, makes sense to me.

IC, it's not clear to me when this offer was made, maybe you can clear this up for me, but even if the offer were made to CCWS back in Sept. of 2007, I still think 2009 would have been a more realistic target date. This may be a viable offer, but the one caveat is that TG remains in control, and I still have my doubts about that, every bit as much as I would about Paul Gentillozzi being in control.

[weeflyonthewall]

Any TOOL to bring down the OW house. Has anything changed between Daytona 24 week and Daytona 500 week? Every year for the last six years its the same old Robin "throw-mud slam everyone" Miller.
See what sticks, see what he can stir up. Supposedly all in the best interest of improving AOWR since George decided to go it alone.
Even with Penske, Ganassi, Andretti, Nunn, etc., in the fold, the IRL's future is just as shaky. They're losing drivers to NASCAR and Grand Sham. Teams unable to get realistic sponsorship.
Where's my crying towel? I'll wait and see what happens in Sebring next week. Then Long Beach!!

[Champcar4life]

What if Champcar went to Tony and say look here, we will take five people from our board and you take five from your and make up the new board and name some as president of the new series we can put our trust and let him name someone that can vote in case of a tie, so it could be broken.

Offer to buy the Dallara chassis for use on the oval and offer too sale Panoz to IRL teams for use on the road course in the new series, keep standing start for the ones on road and street course and by 2010 have a new chassis and engine in place by then and take at least 15 races from both series and make Long Beach and Indianapolis as the center pieces of the new series.


yes it sounds far off, but that is really what a merger would be, what he saying is more like a take over not a merger, a merger too me is that put sides have equal say, it taking the best of both in compacting them into one.

[indycool]

Chap, best I can determine is that it was a meeting or series of meetings back in November or December. The talks were an extension about some "foundation-laying" talks that KK and TG had back in '05 and there's a mysterious letter from '05 supposedly out there outlining what those preliminary talks were. KK apparently didn't attend the November-December meetings but the other Three Amigos did.

This episode presents a lot of unanswered questions about the stability of CC ownership, at least to the extent that it's quite possible they don't agree, or like each other much right now.

KK brought Petit into the sport with PKV. He led Petit to buying RuSport. Petit hooked up with Gentilozzi and that lasted half a season before they went their separate ways. Now, Petit is with Forsythe. KK has been quiet since before the JDSU trial about ANY plans other than signing Servia. Forsythe tossing in a $100 million payoff into the talks in November-December seemed to pretty well end that and the team owners apparently didn't know what was offered until Miller's columns. There's been talk for six months that KK and Forsythe weren't getting along and Forsythe didn't attend a race after Houston last year. Now he seems much more active and KK seems less active.

No one knows how much of CC any of the four own or how much clout each has with each other, so there's a pretty good element of either distrust and/or disagreement at the top of the organization and that seems to have reached the car owners.

Certainly, with those issues among them and all their LLC entanglements, it will be difficult for the SCCA mafia in the CC office to get stuff done. Can you imagine Steve Johnson getting a phone call from Forsythe saying, "yes, you can go to the bathroom" and as he stands up from his desk, his phone rings again and it's KK saying, "no, you can't."

In any case, there will be a lot of talkin' at Sebring and probably more reporting about the talking than the cars running.

[FlatChatRacer]

IndyCool,

Do you really think that TG only spoke to KK, GF, DP and PG late last year? I am sure he must have had some secret meetings with at least one or more of the Marquee Champ Car teams, like NHL.

It would be too risky for him to trust the CCWS leadership to absorb what he was proposing, and then relay it word for word to the Champ Car team owners.

I bet he covered his bases in the Autumn/Winter 2007 talks.

Anyway, if an offer of re-unification has been rescinded, as is being widely reported now, I bet there are still a few more surprises to come.

Some people know more than they are letting on or are prepared to say.

[indycool]

FCR,

Yes, I really think that TG confined his discussions to The Four Amigos. Reason: If he went to teams which had signed agreements to run CC, he could be sued for tortious interference. I doubt that he even knows whether the teams have signed agreements or not, so he'd play it safe. It's also reported that some of the discussion points on a foundation for a deal go back to a mysterious letter in '05.

It's a different story if team owners called him (or more likely, big kids on the IRL staff).

I agree with you that this ain't over yet. This is coming out in public when the window is still open a crack for team owners who might be in a position to jump to do it. And, as I posted earlier, it appears that things are pretty mixed up at the top end of CC ownership and management.

[FormerFF]

I've been away for a while, (I've taken up hang gliding), and I can see that nothing has changed.

After reading the TG interview in the IndyStar, it is apparent that Robin has the terms of whatever offer may have been in the works incorrect. From today's IndyStar:

"I wasn't going to wholesale make that offer (for free cars) ," George said. "I would make sure they had equipment; it would not necessarily be free."

Apparently, he also offered to include some of Champcar's events in a future (next year?) IRL schedule. That's not a merger, it's a buyout, and at a distressed "price", as well. I can't blame any of the Champcar teams or management from declining it. It sounds more like TG is trying to round up a few more teams for a relatively small investment.

It appears that this is going down to scorched earth before it is over. Oh well, plus ca change, plus ca meme chose.

As long as I'm using French, have I told you how much I've been enjoying the ALMS?

[Chaparral66]

Chap, best I can determine is that it was a meeting or series of meetings back in November or December. The talks were an extension about some "foundation-laying" talks that KK and TG had back in '05 and there's a mysterious letter from '05 supposedly out there outlining what those preliminary talks were. KK apparently didn't attend the November-December meetings but the other Three Amigos did.

This episode presents a lot of unanswered questions about the stability of CC ownership, at least to the extent that it's quite possible they don't agree, or like each other much right now.

KK brought Petit into the sport with PKV. He led Petit to buying RuSport. Petit hooked up with Gentilozzi and that lasted half a season before they went their separate ways. Now, Petit is with Forsythe. KK has been quiet since before the JDSU trial about ANY plans other than signing Servia. Forsythe tossing in a $100 million payoff into the talks in November-December seemed to pretty well end that and the team owners apparently didn't know what was offered until Miller's columns. There's been talk for six months that KK and Forsythe weren't getting along and Forsythe didn't attend a race after Houston last year. Now he seems much more active and KK seems less active.

No one knows how much of CC any of the four own or how much clout each has with each other, so there's a pretty good element of either distrust and/or disagreement at the top of the organization and that seems to have reached the car owners.

Certainly, with those issues among them and all their LLC entanglements, it will be difficult for the SCCA mafia in the CC office to get stuff done. Can you imagine Steve Johnson getting a phone call from Forsythe saying, "yes, you can go to the bathroom" and as he stands up from his desk, his phone rings again and it's KK saying, "no, you can't."

In any case, there will be a lot of talkin' at Sebring and probably more reporting about the talking than the cars running.

OK, thanks for clearing that up a bit, IC. Would you agree with me that 2008 is too soon to try to put this together, even under the best of scenarios, due to current contracts and other obligations with CCWS this year, and 2009 would be more suitable?

[Sandfly]

You know, I really see two distinct "visions" for what ow racing ought to be.

Since everyone seems to think that Indy is important for sponsors - and since both series are based there,,,, and since Tg obviously wants to control his race - AND his series,,, the answer is OBVIOUS.

TWO seperate series that meet at Indy and Long Beach for a combined Cup.

Bothe series can go where they want and race the kind of races they want - and just come together at important places to share the benift TG gets plenty of cars for his BIG race and he still controls his series.

Real race fans still get a road/street racing series that is not oval centric, yet cam contribute to the Indy phenomenon. The IRl will contribute little to Long Beach - but they can't hurt it.

Two series - both seperate but working together to rebuild Indy - why not Tony?

[gofastandwynn]

What if Champcar went to Tony and say look here, we will take five people from our board and you take five from your and make up the new board and name some as president of the new series we can put our trust and let him name someone that can vote in case of a tie, so it could be broken.

Offer to buy the Dallara chassis for use on the oval and offer too sale Panoz to IRL teams for use on the road course in the new series, keep standing start for the ones on road and street course and by 2010 have a new chassis and engine in place by then and take at least 15 races from both series and make Long Beach and Indianapolis as the center pieces of the new series.


yes it sounds far off, but that is really what a merger would be, what he saying is more like a take over not a merger, a merger too me is that put sides have equal say, it taking the best of both in compacting them into one.

The biggest problem with that is the extra costs of running a completely different chassis and engine. You can move parts from one car to another, you would have to run 2 different cars.

Plus you can only carry 2 cars per transporter. And if you were do a western or southern swing (aka Homestead & St. Pete back to back) you would only be able to haul 1 of each cars, or pay to have a back up cars shipped around which is another needless cost.

[indycool]

Chap, I'd agree that a "full deal" would be very difficult to put together for '08, just as TG said the time isn't there to do it from a physical "order the cars and equipment" standpoint for 10-12 cars. I'd say there's enough time for one or two teams to jump if they so chose.

I don't know how the CC contracts work, whether there's some deal-breakers in there or not. As the huge amounts of money have been spent, though, with all the layers of LLCs that it's structured with, it's likely that bankrupting out CC would be pretty easy, if it came to that.

[FormerFF]

You know, I really see two distinct "visions" for what ow racing ought to be.

Since everyone seems to think that Indy is important for sponsors - and since both series are based there,,,, and since Tg obviously wants to control his race - AND his series,,, the answer is OBVIOUS.

TWO seperate series that meet at Indy and Long Beach for a combined Cup.

Bothe series can go where they want and race the kind of races they want - and just come together at important places to share the benift TG gets plenty of cars for his BIG race and he still controls his series.

Real race fans still get a road/street racing series that is not oval centric, yet cam contribute to the Indy phenomenon. The IRl will contribute little to Long Beach - but they can't hurt it.

Two series - both seperate but working together to rebuild Indy - why not Tony?

I've heard that suggestion before. It makes perfect sense. I think that Tony wants 100% control, and will accept nothing less. I gather that he wants the Hulman-George family to be the equivalent of the France family of open wheel racing. He may yet get his way, but it won't be much of a kingdom.

The only hope I have for any sort of reunification before one or both sides collapse would be for Honda to knock some heads together.

[Wraith]

The only way it could work is if GF/KK are in charge of the races and TG just looks after the 500 and advises the others. Either way the whole situation is a mess.

An "advisory" role is all they offered him to begin with. The entire reason for forming the IRL would be submarined if he (or, after a fashion, whoever's running IMS) gave up running the series as a whole. This war is based on power. Who rules. Tony George has open-wheel's big bloody sledgehammer of The 500-Mile Race.

And, GF/KK being in charge has made CCWS worse, not better, than before. The one advantage they had, lack of spec-racing, they threw out the window. In balance between the two series? IRL is simply better, with the ovals, AND the expanding road and street races (minus boring-as-hell, needing-racing-lane-expansion Detroit).

[Wraith]

Real race fans still get a road/street racing series that is not oval centric, yet cam contribute to the Indy phenomenon.

Real racing IS oval racing...AND road and street racing. In the same series. It's called diversity. Ideally, it should be 50/50, even-steven, not counting Indianapolis.

[Sandfly]

Real racing IS oval racing...AND road and street racing. In the same series. It's called diversity. Ideally, it should be 50/50, even-steven, not counting Indianapolis.


I understand your mathematical point - but it is unlikely to happen in any one series -- way too many factors. Simpler to have two separte divisions that do thier thing-- lots of racing for everyone - co-ordinate dates to avoid regional conflict, and come together for the "Cup" events at selected tracks- especially Indy. TG Has his race and his series.

Not perfect but it can happen easily an maintain existing obligations of both series.

[Wraith]

Oval racing in open wheel cars outside of Indianapolis is gone/over/done.

EDIT: My highly emotional, angry comment only would insult. I apologize, and will write something new here shortly...

THAT EDIT:

Two series split the sponsorship, making the car counts of both too low. As it stands, the car counts are passable...for IRL (since every time people say it'll dissolve because of being too little, it doesn't). If CCWS only has...what? Eight to ten cars? Then that IS too low. But add those teams to IRL, and you have over 26 cars. Ideal, if not amazing, given the current situation.

And to those who scream that Tony George has no right to rule AOW racing...I respectfully disagree. I may not like the "every car has to be available to anyone" situation...but the fact that he's willing to fight to the death to rule is actually something I respect. If he has no right to rule it, the car owners have no right to rule it either...even less, in my mind, because owners are by definition interested, biased parties (which means, yes, I have a problem with George as a car owner, on psychological grounds). Look at the FIA. By what right does FIA rule over the teams? At USGP 2005, it seems that agreement showed cracks, too. But anyway...

George's attacks on the jugular I have extreme respect for. After all...if he backed off wanting total France-family level power, why the HELL did he make IRL? And to those who hate that he did and say he never should have...I for one am glad to have a series that has more than two ovals of Indy and Milwaukee.

THIRD EDIT:

My ideal, on availability of chassis and engines: If you sell it to any one...you have to make it available to anyone. No fixed-teams crap. If you bring your own garage-built machine (on 16th street or in a factory in Osaka, Japan), and DON'T sell it...and it passes tech...you can go.

"Only to fixed teams" is the garbage I hate from the CART days, and will always hate. That, and their attempt to abolish the ovals.

[nanders]

You know, I really see two distinct "visions" for what ow racing ought to be.

Since everyone seems to think that Indy is important for sponsors - and since both series are based there,,,, and since Tg obviously wants to control his race - AND his series,,, the answer is OBVIOUS.

TWO seperate series that meet at Indy and Long Beach for a combined Cup.

Bothe series can go where they want and race the kind of races they want - and just come together at important places to share the benift TG gets plenty of cars for his BIG race and he still controls his series.

Real race fans still get a road/street racing series that is not oval centric, yet cam contribute to the Indy phenomenon. The IRl will contribute little to Long Beach - but they can't hurt it.

Two series - both seperate but working together to rebuild Indy - why not Tony?

The owners that can, just go run Indy. If I ran a CCWS team I would go to Indy. Even if it meant missing a conflicting race ... points be damn.

[weeflyonthewall]

We hear the same crap every year. It sounds like TG is getting desperate for car count again.



FCR,

Yes, I really think that TG confined his discussions to The Four Amigos. Reason: If he went to teams which had signed agreements to run CC, he could be sued for tortious interference. I doubt that he even knows whether the teams have signed agreements or not, so he'd play it safe. It's also reported that some of the discussion points on a foundation for a deal go back to a mysterious letter in '05.

It's a different story if team owners called him (or more likely, big kids on the IRL staff).

I agree with you that this ain't over yet. This is coming out in public when the window is still open a crack for team owners who might be in a position to jump to do it. And, as I posted earlier, it appears that things are pretty mixed up at the top end of CC ownership and management.

[Sandfly]

Wraith and nanders -


With two divisions in the same series - open wheel - that both run at Indy -- TG gets enough cars ( with time maybe enough for a bump day) that have season sponsorhip. Some will run in a mostly oval series while some will run the road racing series.

IF indy is the big hammer then - having it as an key Championship race will improve sponsorship oppotunities for all.

As it is now - Tony is not willing to have CC cars come to the speedway. No CC team is going to invest in a IRL car for one race - lease deal/ loaner car will not be competitive. An equivilency formula would work - they did it for years,, maybe not perfect but if you want multiple engine manufacturres your gonna have to have one anyway.

Yes I know that the speedway package for the Panoz has not been tested - but the car is capable of running safely on ovals - and that would be up to CC to resolve.

This seems to me to be a solution that breaks the logjam - giving TG what he wants ( control of his series and His Speedway ,, with some cars ) without destroying open wheel racing - oval and road-racing versions.

Not only that -- he can salvage the family name by doing something right for the sport.

[Blancvino]

The only hope I have for any sort of reunification before one or both sides collapse would be for Honda to knock some heads together.

It's hard to knock one head together. What influence does Honda have with Champcar?

[mike15]

All along this was nothing more than a TG ploy to get Champ Car teams to fill the I500.

From USAToday.

(George, the IRL's chief executive officer, said that in meetings last fall with Champ Car's leadership, he offered to help its teams pay for IRL cars on the condition they participated in his series for at least two seasons. When none came forward in a timely manner, George chose to scrap his plan.

"Teams started coming to me in December and January, and there's not much I can do at that point," George said. "I needed to know earlier so we could get the cars ordered."

Champ Car co-owner Kevin Kalkhoven said George never formally made an offer to either him or partner Jerry Forsythe.

"I never, ever saw an offer from Tony George," Kalkhoven said. "We never received anything in writing.")

[garyshell]

I understand your mathematical point - but it is unlikely to happen in any one series -- way too many factors. Simpler to have two separte divisions that do thier thing-- lots of racing for everyone - co-ordinate dates to avoid regional conflict, and come together for the "Cup" events at selected tracks- especially Indy. TG Has his race and his series.

Not perfect but it can happen easily an maintain existing obligations of both series.


BULLOCKS!!!!!!

Two series CAN NOT, I repeat CAN NOT, survive. Remember the quote attributed to Einstein: The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, hoping for a different outcome.

Gary

[PSfan]

All along this was nothing more than a TG ploy to get Champ Car teams to fill the I500.

From USAToday.

(George, the IRL's chief executive officer, said that in meetings last fall with Champ Car's leadership, he offered to help its teams pay for IRL cars on the condition they participated in his series for at least two seasons. When none came forward in a timely manner, George chose to scrap his plan.

"Teams started coming to me in December and January, and there's not much I can do at that point," George said. "I needed to know earlier so we could get the cars ordered."

Champ Car co-owner Kevin Kalkhoven said George never formally made an offer to either him or partner Jerry Forsythe.

"I never, ever saw an offer from Tony George," Kalkhoven said. "We never received anything in writing.")

I suspect that perhaps it might not have been much of a ploy, as maybe a "tire kicking" that went really wrong.

It is reasonable to expect that should a champcar team call Tony up tomorrow and say I wanna run 2 cars in you series for 2008, that they would get a better deal then "Ok I'll sell you 1 new car and 1 used car if you commit to 2 years"

Only thing on the table of any susbstance would be the inclusion of races in the 08 schedule. But in November, this would have been alot of "can't blame the guy for trying" but without that Bad press of Matos, Cotman, ABC/ESPN schedule, we know that the amigo's wouldn't really give this much consideration.

So why would TG "retract" on offer that doesn't really sound like much of an offer at all? Because RM's story was probably almost as damaging to the IRL as it was to the Amigo's.

First, when RM finally got the story, anybody who can read a celender already new it was a dead issue... TG would have never been able to twist arms at ABC enough to magically add the races to the IRL schedule... They would be destined for their original champcar time slots (in other words, its the races that made the offer "time sensitive" and not as TG suggested in his offer retraction "chassis"

And free chassis/engines to all the champcar teams who come over. RM really should have went with the "If its to good to be true...it probably is" Imagine if the whole CC field took up this offer? 16-18 cars dumped into the IRL mix over night... That means 8-10 cars not making the races... convince the current IRL backmarkers this is good, convince them to fight tooth and nail for every sponsor dollar if they are still probably sitting out.

I'll give Tony credit for coming out and addressing this issue, as it paints him in somewhat of a negative light thanks to the absurd nature of this "offer" and I hope that the Amigo's are watching... It may be a little late, but we are due with a "We know the tv schedule is bad, but we are working on things so it doesn't happen again" statement, and a "Cotman is gone, and will be missed, but we are confident that we can find a replacement that can due the job well." and while we're at it "We respect Matos' decision to for-go the 2mil bonus to sign to a different series, but we will re-invest that money into the series..."

[FormerFF]

It's hard to knock one head together. What influence does Honda have with Champcar?

They could offer to stay in a combined series, essentially offering sponsorship where none currently exists. Maybe they could get Fireston/Bridgestone in on the deal as well.

[Sandfly]

BULLOCKS!!!!!!

Two series CAN NOT, I repeat CAN NOT, survive. Remember the quote attributed to Einstein: The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, hoping for a different outcome.

Gary


Wait a minute!!! You guys have been telling us how important the I-500 is. Well if it is so important then having two racing divisions - one primarily ovals the other road racing - that come together for several Championship Races --- including the I-500 then all the teams can claim the I-500 booty when on sponsor hunt. TG gets a full competitive field for his big race and the fans in Iowa get an oval race, while the fans in Toronto get their street race.

It will take an equivilency formula untill rules are chassis /engine rules a re unified but two divisions in one series is an answer that can work.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I havne't been on the board for a while, and I haven't got 6 hours to sit around and catch up on all the gossip and fighting and bickering that is so much entertainment for me. Wont go into how much I miss it, but I do. That said, last Sunday night, Miller shows up on my screen and tells the world that TG is offering up free cars to all the CC teams in exchange for LB,Surfers, Toronto, Edmonton and.... one other race. Anyhow, from what Miller said (and unlike a lot of people on this board, I have all the time in the world for the man) this offer sounded like it had merit. I think what TG is doing is actually putting a good faith effort of sorts forward to the teams. I think with the mess KK and GF had made of this thing, he isn't going to appeal to them at all. They want their cash, or some return for all the money have they have poured down the hole, but I think at some point, some sort of rational thought has to come into it. Lets face some hard facts:
1) Neither series is roaring away with crowds, TV viewers or sponsors. That said, the IRL has had the lead the last year. Most you HATE that, but too bad, the ratings are in the IRL's court, the cars they have do have sponsors that are recognizable to more fans than a lot of the Champ Car sponsors. Their attendance has started to climb and althougth live show and everything CC has at the track is pretty decent, the IRL holds the edge.

2) This fact is this farce is now on its 13th year, and Tony still has money to blow where as KK and GF are acting like they are tired of losing money. OW is in such a state that more capital will be required to make either series grow such as they stand.

3) The car counts still suck, and both series have lost some significant drivers of interest.


What does all this add up to? More evidence a two series war continuing will kill this sport. The IRL will win by either attrition or having enough money to eventually force the CCWS to the table. Does this believe I like TG all the sudden and think everyone should capitulate? No.....but I do think for the first time he is starting to see the light and knows he needs more teams and car count. I also think that KK and GF have screwed this show up so bad that I think TG would do a better job. With Cotman now going over to the IRL ( something I missed on seeing coming or commenting on) it is obvious the Amigo's are clueless on just too much to be respected anymore. My interest, viewing time and love for the sport is too great to see this great racing series driven into the ground by mismangement and stupidity. They had the IRL by the short hairs in 1997 or so, and between CART and the Amigo's, this lead has been burned, squandered and kills.

It is by far one of the great tragedies in racing history that AOWR has come to this side show while NASCAR takes over, but it has.

I cant stand what TG did to this world of racing with his temper tantrum in 1995, but he has gotten smarter in the last few years, and when someone like me who hates crapwagons says he has a done a better job administratively and marketing wise, it sucks. That however is the truth. The sooner a few people on the Champ Car side of the fence realize this the better. A merger was overdue 5 years ago, but had to be one that makes sense. Now it really doesn't much matter does it? Just put us all out of miseries...

[Sandfly]

What has TG done that makes him such an administrative master. Held on for dear life while his racetrack and his series go down the tubes , staying alive only because of a TV contract that loses value every year.

Racing in corn fields, and in front of crowds that get tickets when they buy thier NASCAR package?

They have one Race that matters at all, a terrible excuse for a car, some really bad PR stuff ( you can not tell me that that Mindy tongue guy is good for anybody) . They are already sucking wind looking at 12 cars for THE BIG RACE in may- " well 33 is just a number"

Merge. Why

Give in to TG's vision. Why.

One really bad series with no fans is not better than what we have now.

Two divisions with shared races, including Indy. TG getscars and controls his own series. Perhaps eventually it becomes so easy to merge the two divisions
-- that it makes sense to let weak race contracts expire in both divisions, and consolidate into one beigger series.

BUT IF INDY REALLY IS THE KEY - a two division systemsharing some races, would work.

[Chaparral66]

I havne't been on the board for a while, and I haven't got 6 hours to sit around and catch up on all the gossip and fighting and bickering that is so much entertainment for me. Wont go into how much I miss it, but I do. That said, last Sunday night, Miller shows up on my screen and tells the world that TG is offering up free cars to all the CC teams in exchange for LB,Surfers, Toronto, Edmonton and.... one other race. Anyhow, from what Miller said (and unlike a lot of people on this board, I have all the time in the world for the man) this offer sounded like it had merit. I think what TG is doing is actually putting a good faith effort of sorts forward to the teams. I think with the mess KK and GF had made of this thing, he isn't going to appeal to them at all. They want their cash, or some return for all the money have they have poured down the hole, but I think at some point, some sort of rational thought has to come into it. Lets face some hard facts:
1) Neither series is roaring away with crowds, TV viewers or sponsors. That said, the IRL has had the lead the last year. Most you HATE that, but too bad, the ratings are in the IRL's court, the cars they have do have sponsors that are recognizable to more fans than a lot of the Champ Car sponsors. Their attendance has started to climb and althougth live show and everything CC has at the track is pretty decent, the IRL holds the edge.

2) This fact is this farce is now on its 13th year, and Tony still has money to blow where as KK and GF are acting like they are tired of losing money. OW is in such a state that more capital will be required to make either series grow such as they stand.

3) The car counts still suck, and both series have lost some significant drivers of interest.


What does all this add up to? More evidence a two series war continuing will kill this sport. The IRL will win by either attrition or having enough money to eventually force the CCWS to the table. Does this believe I like TG all the sudden and think everyone should capitulate? No.....but I do think for the first time he is starting to see the light and knows he needs more teams and car count. I also think that KK and GF have screwed this show up so bad that I think TG would do a better job. With Cotman now going over to the IRL ( something I missed on seeing coming or commenting on) it is obvious the Amigo's are clueless on just too much to be respected anymore. My interest, viewing time and love for the sport is too great to see this great racing series driven into the ground by mismangement and stupidity. They had the IRL by the short hairs in 1997 or so, and between CART and the Amigo's, this lead has been burned, squandered and kills.

It is by far one of the great tragedies in racing history that AOWR has come to this side show while NASCAR takes over, but it has.

I cant stand what TG did to this world of racing with his temper tantrum in 1995, but he has gotten smarter in the last few years, and when someone like me who hates crapwagons says he has a done a better job administratively and marketing wise, it sucks. That however is the truth. The sooner a few people on the Champ Car side of the fence realize this the better. A merger was overdue 5 years ago, but had to be one that makes sense. Now it really doesn't much matter does it? Just put us all out of miseries...

I understand the sentiment of where this is coming from, but I think we really need to examine TG's offer in detail. I still don't trust this guy, despite the fact he has done a better job of running the IRL than The Amigos have in Champ Car. I still think this offer was designed to bury CCWS while The Amigos' business plan was at a very weak point. I would almost prefer to see CCWS go under, and then the IRL along with at some later (as I don't think the CCWS fans will suddenly flock to EARL the way Tony George perhaps think they will), and then see a new group come in and relaunch the sport, and make a deal to run at Indy to recomprise the Indy 500. Yeah, that's a lot, but I just don't trust this deal. It involves no great concession or sacrifice on TG's part, IMHO. If he had offered a deal and said "This is (whatever that may be) what I want to do, and for that, I'm willing to run Panoz DP-01s in 2009.", then you'd certainly have my attention. But I don't see any such sacrifice on his part at all.

[CCWS77]

Actually, its rather obvious that TG in not talking to Robin Miller:
RM says TG was gonna give free Cars/Engines
TG says Not free
RM says it was a blanket offer
TG says "I wasn't going to wholesale make that offer,"


Robin Miller is an embarrasment to journalism. The facts from his recent reporting turn out to be wrong...contradicted from both sides by both TG and KK. The Indystar article conflicts with most of Millers facts.

In the end what we have according to TG himself is him trying to get CCWS team to switch to IRL...and no teams taking up that offer. That is NOT a merger. That is not even anything new. I agree with what someone above said...it does not reflect any better on the status of the IRL then it does on CCWS. Why does he need them?

[Jacques]

With the recent statements about tv ratings ... does anyone have the actual numbers ?
Last I read, the nonIndy races averaged a 1.1 rating (including the 1.7 for Detroit). So, except for 1 race, all the other races were at or below 1.0 average. It is twice what CC got, but it was another drop of 14 % or so from last year; so, it is not as if they have the upper hand regarding attendance or ratings. Their cable ratings also went down (to 0.4, I think), which is still better than the 0.2 from CC .... but, does it matter at that point ?

That being the case, I still fail to see where this desire for unity has its basis. All TG has is Indy and he has lost over half of its fans. Be careful what you wish for, so the saying goes.

You all want unity, you may just get it .... you are just delaying the inevitable, I think.

[Chaparral66]

Robin Miller is an embarrasment to journalism. The facts from his recent reporting turn out to be wrong...contradicted from both sides by both TG and KK. The Indystar article conflicts with most of Millers facts.

In the end what we have according to TG himself is him trying to get CCWS team to switch to IRL...and no teams taking up that offer. That is NOT a merger. That is not even anything new. I agree with what someone above said...it does not reflect any better on the status of the IRL then it does on CCWS. Why does he need them?

C'mon, CCWS77. Miller reported the story using the best available information that was available at the time. It stands to reason that the information was amended or reclarified after it initially broke. Plus, it's possible Miller was not able to get a hold of TG or KK for comment in time for his deadline on SPEEDtv.com. He submitted opposing quotes in his subsequent report. Obviously, after the ripping he has taken from Miller over the years (as Miller says, with good reason), you can't be surprised he'd be much more interested in talking to the Indy Star than Miller (even as Miller had softened up on him, suggesting he is a better manager than The Amigos at this point). Since this gambit of TG has not paid off, and many CC owners have seen through it, you can bet dollars to donuts that TG is going to want to save some face and come out ahead in the PR war.

[Cart750hp]

Robin Miller is an embarrasment to journalism. The facts from his recent reporting turn out to be wrong...contradicted from both sides by both TG and KK. The Indystar article conflicts with most of Millers facts.

I think you are confused between reporting and opinions. Miller tend to do both at the same time. So using RM's articles which is more of his opinions and less reporting is more of hating his opinion and ignoring his reporting. But if you want reporting, you can read these around ESPN, Yahoo, etc. So sometime you read another RM stuff, expect more opinions than reporting.


In the end what we have according to TG himself is him trying to get CCWS team to switch to IRL...and no teams taking up that offer. That is NOT a merger. That is not even anything new. I agree with what someone above said...it does not reflect any better on the status of the IRL then it does on CCWS. Why does he need them?

For the past 12 years, TG didn't need "them". I'm sorry but you have to look at it a little further. TG do want a control and I don't blame him. Of course, you own Indy and own the series, so don't you think the first thing you want is a control? Of course! One thing that TG needs is to keep his series competitive. In order to be competitive, he needs more teams. Good competitive teams to increase his investment. We all agree that he's another moron but look what this moron has done. He got Penske, Rahal, Andretti, Ganassi and Honda onboard. Something that CC is lacking of; competitive business. Ever wonder why CC owners are usually on TG's door knocking? Why do you think is that? If CC owners are too smart and knows what they are doing with the series, shouldn't they be more better than IRL now? Shouldn't be TG knocking on CC's door consistently? And at least one guy coming from IRL to CC for something good. But nothing. Tony Cotman was the last person I heard to leave IRL.....oopps he's going back again. I don't need an article from RM, I don't need a statement from KK/GF/PG or TG himself (you guys should know that there are too many BS coming out of their mouth everytime they make a statement) because the result always shows.

[sanguin]

With the recent statements about tv ratings ... does anyone have the actual numbers ?
Last I read, the nonIndy races averaged a 1.1 rating (including the 1.7 for Detroit). So, except for 1 race, all the other races were at or below 1.0 average. It is twice what CC got, but it was another drop of 14 % or so from last year; so, it is not as if they have the upper hand regarding attendance or ratings. Their cable ratings also went down (to 0.4, I think), which is still better than the 0.2 from CC .... but, does it matter at that point ?

That being the case, I still fail to see where this desire for unity has its basis. All TG has is Indy and he has lost over half of its fans. Be careful what you wish for, so the saying goes.

You all want unity, you may just get it .... you are just delaying the inevitable, I think.

Actually the rating for Detroit was .9 and Chicago was .8. Indy was down from 4.7 to 4.1 in 2007. Their ratings are not much better than CC, but CC does have higher attendance at their events.

[sanguin]

Robin Miller is an embarrasment to journalism. The facts from his recent reporting turn out to be wrong...contradicted from both sides by both TG and KK. The Indystar article conflicts with most of Millers facts.

In the end what we have according to TG himself is him trying to get CCWS team to switch to IRL...and no teams taking up that offer. That is NOT a merger. That is not even anything new. I agree with what someone above said...it does not reflect any better on the status of the IRL then it does on CCWS. Why does he need them?

I agree, TG will never merge, its about control and nothing else. There would be no guarantee that any CC events would stay in the series. He could do as he pleases and no one could stop him.

[nanders]

C'mon, CCWS77. Miller reported the story using the best available information that was available at the time.

He could have reported it as rumor or "I'm hearing ... " or "there may be" "might" "maybe." But no, he hung it out. When he hangs it out like that, he deserves to be busted.

And if the leaders of these series don't want to talk to Robin ... maybe Robin has become irrelevant.

[nanders]

but CC does have higher attendance at their events.

Link?

[sanguin]

Link?

"Dominguez and fellow Mexican David Martinez will be among the favorites at the Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez. Martinez finished 10th in his Australian debut last weekend, and he will be looking to build on that solid result in front of his home crowd, which thanks to the great turnout in Australia will almost certainly count Champ Car fan number 2 million in 2007. Although Mexicans love to cheer for their native drivers, the spectators also are expected to fully support Bruno Junqueira, who is looking for a fourth consecutive podium for Dale Coyne Racing; Sebastien Bourdais, who will be competing in his final Champ Car race before he moves to Formula One next year; long-time favorite Paul Tracy who missed last year's race due to injury; and the talented rookie field led by Robert Doornbos (who has clinched the Rookie of the Year title), Graham Rahal, Pagenaud and Neel Jani."

http://www.champcarworldseries.com/News/Article.asp?ID=12321

[indycool]

Oh.

[nanders]

Oh.

Indycool, does "Oh" mean "whatever?" ;)

[Chaparral66]

Just to set the record straight, "almost certainly" is not the same as a record of fact. It is another form of speculation. Not to mention that the house web site of this (or any other, either) series is hardly a place for honest, objective, information.

The reason I point this out, sanguin, is that you continually are after other posters about fact vs speculation and links. Either play by the same rules on both sides or don't play the game.

What he said.

[Chaparral66]

He could have reported it as rumor or "I'm hearing ... " or "there may be" "might" "maybe." But no, he hung it out. When he hangs it out like that, he deserves to be busted.

And if the leaders of these series don't want to talk to Robin ... maybe Robin has become irrelevant.

What rumor are you talking about? That TG made some sort of an offer to CCWS? That was reported as fact by Robin Miller, and confirmed by The Indy Star. The substance of that offer was sketchy and took a little more to flesh out, and the latest report by the Indy Star seems to be the most up to date. But Miller was not wrong.

As for Miller being irrelevant, don't bet on it. Miller is one of the very few nationally prominent sports writers with clout (a group that continues to fade daily) still writing about open wheel racing. They all have to deal with him more often than not, since just about everyone else is ignoring the sport, joke that it has become.

[indycool]

nanders, pretty close to that. Sorta, "well, that's what you believe."

"Although Mexicans love to cheer for their native drivers, the spectators also are expected to fully support.........Neel Jani."

http://www.champcarworldseries.com/News/Article.asp?ID=12321

Yes, because Mexicans have a big thing about Swiss former Sauber test drivers!!!!

If you believe that, you'd believe anything.

Actually, that explains a lot.

[nanders]

"Dominguez and fellow Mexican David Martinez will be among the favorites at the Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez. Martinez finished 10th in his Australian debut last weekend, and he will be looking to build on that solid result in front of his home crowd, which thanks to the great turnout in Australia will almost certainly count Champ Car fan number 2 million in 2007. Although Mexicans love to cheer for their native drivers, the spectators also are expected to fully support Bruno Junqueira, who is looking for a fourth consecutive podium for Dale Coyne Racing; Sebastien Bourdais, who will be competing in his final Champ Car race before he moves to Formula One next year; long-time favorite Paul Tracy who missed last year's race due to injury; and the talented rookie field led by Robert Doornbos (who has clinched the Rookie of the Year title), Graham Rahal, Pagenaud and Neel Jani."

http://www.champcarworldseries.com/News/Article.asp?ID=12321

If you'd take the CCWS series out of the Lexmark INDY and put the ALMS there how many people would show up? 314,136? How's about take the CCWS series out and just make the Super Cars the headliners? 314,136? How's about the INDY Car Series? Something tells me they are not scared of the name INDY down there.

[Cart750hp]

Yes, because Mexicans have a big thing about Swiss former Sauber test drivers!!!!

If you believe that, you'd believe anything.

Actually, that explains a lot.

Anything that coming out of KK or posted by CC, this guy will believe it. I think he's brainwashed. What happened to sanguin's critical thinking statement? That, for sure, I'd like to hear from him. LMAO!

[Champcar4life]

What rumor are you talking about? That TG made some sort of an offer to CCWS? That was reported as fact by Robin Miller, and confirmed by The Indy Star. The substance of that offer was sketchy and took a little more to flesh out, and the latest report by the Indy Star seems to be the most up to date. But Miller was not wrong.

As for Miller being irrelevant, don't bet on it. Miller is one of the very few nationally prominent sports writers with clout (a group that continues to fade daily) still writing about open wheel racing. They all have to deal with him more often than not, since just about everyone else is ignoring the sport, joke that it has become.


I live in Indianapolis and I don't believe anything that Indystar reports when it comes to sport.

[nanders]

What rumor are you talking about? That TG made some sort of an offer to CCWS? That was reported as fact by Robin Miller, and confirmed by The Indy Star. The substance of that offer was sketchy and took a little more to flesh out, and the latest report by the Indy Star seems to be the most up to date. But Miller was not wrong.

As for Miller being irrelevant, don't bet on it. Miller is one of the very few nationally prominent sports writers with clout (a group that continues to fade daily) still writing about open wheel racing. They all have to deal with him more often than not, since just about everyone else is ignoring the sport, joke that it has become.

ru·mor –noun
1. a story or statement in general circulation without confirmation or certainty as to facts: a rumor of war.

Miller didn't talk to KK, PG, GF or TG. He did talk to Carl Hass who is not a principle. Hince by definition rumor. His facts were wrong, discounted by KK and TG. Yep, rumor. He was in the general area ... but no. Rumor! Rated: speculation!

[SOD]

Ken, sounds to me like an offer was made verbally that (in Miller's commentary, anyway) included the other events. Why bother either of them to ask their attorneys to reduce those thoughts to writing if Forsythe killed it by insisting on $100 million?

I'm sure Foresight killed it. But yeah Tony needs to get his name in papers, what a PR coup from the world class brains at 16ht & jonestown.

[Chaparral66]

I'm sure Foresight killed it. But yeah Tony needs to get his name in papers, what a PR coup from the world class brains at 16ht & jonestown.

You mean, 16th & Georgetown, don'cha?

[Chaparral66]

ru·mor –noun
1. a story or statement in general circulation without confirmation or certainty as to facts: a rumor of war.

Miller didn't talk to KK, PG, GF or TG. He did talk to Carl Hass who is not a principle. Hince by definition rumor. His facts were wrong, discounted by KK and TG. Yep, rumor. He was in the general area ... but no. Rumor! Rated: speculation!

Cute. I didn't ask you what the word rumor meant, I asked you, what rumor were you referring to? Still haven't answered me. Miller's facts about an offer being made to The Amigos by Tony George was NOT wrong. The Indy Star confirmed that much. Where they differed was on the substance of the offer, and that was merely a matter of who got what information from whom, and how accurate their sources were.

I'll ask one more time: what rumor?

[tbyars]

I agree, TG will never merge, its about control and nothing else. There would be no guarantee that any CC events would stay in the series. He could do as he pleases and no one could stop him.

Yet in other posts you tell us that he wants everything that is CCWS. He wants the drivers. He wants the venues. He wants the fans. He wants everything for his very own.

Now, which is it, sanguin? You ignored my question in the other thread. Are you going to ignore it here as well? Does he covet everything that is CCWS for his own, or is he going to do away with everything that is CCWS once he has control? Which is it, sanguin? It can't be both, and you make these claims interchangeably.

It's time for you to finally decide which side of your mouth you are going to speak out of.

[tbyars]

"Dominguez and fellow Mexican David Martinez will be among the favorites at the Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez. Martinez finished 10th in his Australian debut last weekend, and he will be looking to build on that solid result in front of his home crowd, which thanks to the great turnout in Australia will almost certainly count Champ Car fan number 2 million in 2007. Although Mexicans love to cheer for their native drivers, the spectators also are expected to fully support Bruno Junqueira, who is looking for a fourth consecutive podium for Dale Coyne Racing; Sebastien Bourdais, who will be competing in his final Champ Car race before he moves to Formula One next year; long-time favorite Paul Tracy who missed last year's race due to injury; and the talented rookie field led by Robert Doornbos (who has clinched the Rookie of the Year title), Graham Rahal, Pagenaud and Neel Jani."

http://www.champcarworldseries.com/News/Article.asp?ID=12321

Sorry, sanguin. PR fron the CCWS site doesn't count. INDEPENDENT news link, please. Let's get real for a change.

[Cart750hp]

Sorry, sanguin. PR fron the CCWS site doesn't count. INDEPENDENT news link, please. Let's get real for a change.

tbyars, are you sure about that? I'm afraid sanguin's gonna come with an articles from ESPN, Yahoo, CBS, MSN, Fox or Reuters. LMAO!!!

[indycool]

So I say "oh" again. If editors at those sites bought into it..........has anyone ever seen a day by day breakdown? Has anyone ever put together independent media estimates day-by-day?

[SOD]

as far as I'm concerned on car counts:

45k Champcar crowd at Homestead with ticket prices of $80 = bad

35k IRL crowd at Homestead with ticket prices of $40 = good.

[Jacques]

The problem with all this talk about attendance is that when the IRL does the same thing, people accept it w/o question.
Take Indy or St. Pete for example.
When CART raced at St. Pete, it was reported that about 30k showed up. That figure was hotly contested and ridiculed. Now that the IRL races there, fanatics tell us that the IRL can do as well or even better than CART at street racing, quoting the very same figure and very same newspaper reports.
When Cavin showed the overinflated numbers at Indy, fanatics refused to accept the analysis. Same thing happens at Texas or Milwaukee.

In other words, when CC does it, it must be a lie. When the IRL does it, it must be true. Sometimes, these fanatics use the same promoter and the same newspaper report.

[MAX_THRUST]

TG clearly wants what he wanted back when CART died, the best bits of CART/CCSW. Those being a few new teams for the IRL, some merged teams maybe, a few well attended races, a few safety vehicles. Paul Tracey would be good to have, but TG might not want him, who knows, only TG.

And that's the point the only person who knows is TG. As for the Three amigos, I don't thin TG would want them, but there money could be usefull.

there's no sponsors really worth having, they would be nice to have, but whatever, a unified series would gain more sponsors anyway.

Does any of it matter and is it too late for Open Wheel to be saved. Bernie Eccecles cake only wanted F1 at INDY when CART had clearly faiked and the IRL was struggling, in the hope he could grab the market (perhaps), either way open wheel is so poorly supported that F1 didn't crack the US, why you need more than half your series in the US to make it a success in the US.

SORRY, what were you guys talking about I got lost in here????????

[MAX_THRUST]

Oh figures,

Danica's got a nice one,

[indycool]

Jacques, the difference is that you don't hear boxcar numbers from the IRL that simply can't be believed.

The final CART race at Miami announced 80,000 for three days, but an AUDIT supplied to the city said 12,000 paid on Race Day and 14,000 comps. That leaves 54,000 to come on the two days on which there was no race.

There were those who predicted as high as 500,000 for Mexico City the first time and some glamorized more than 350,000. The AP estimated it at "over 100,000." And now, the promoter has announced downward to that while eliminating grandstands.

Huge numbers have always been announced at Cleveland. They only build 20,000 seats plus some umbrella tables at Cleveland. There are no GAs. Just how can they possibly have the 50,000s and so forth on Race Day? And regardless of attendance, if it was so great, why did San Jose and Las Vegas lose their cabooses? Why has Edmonton changed owners after losing both money and attendance for three straight years.

You'd better look at a bigger picture than a few words of PR fluff on the CC website. First it was the Pacific Rim where CC was going to expand as part of KK's "surfeit of opportunities." Whoops. Then came street races. Whoops. Now it's Europe. TBA. Three "visions" in four years. Ask yourself why.

[nanders]

Ask yourself why.

I like to ask myself, "why do you race?" I ask myself are both open wheel formulas obsolete? I ask myself will consolidation be enough?

I'm interested in seeing if TG introduces a new formula when they announce later this year. If it's not "new technology" it will be a loser.

[indycool]

nanders, it's hard to say the cars don't matter because a car doesn't go very
fast without a driver and a driver doesn't go very fast without a car.

But for the general spectator, he/she can't see "technology." If someone has a secret trick widget under the cowl that a secret engineer has developed in secret, the fan doesn't give a bleep. All he knows is "there goes Paul Tracy or Helio Castroneves down the straightaway."

The best example of this is the DP-01, which was promoted as the greatest thing that ever happened to motorsports as a come-on for people to jump on the CC bandwagon. Attendance, failed races and TV numbers said the DP-01 made absolutely no difference.

Racing is sports entertainment. The part the people watch is the racing part and they couldn't care less or notice the difference in an '86 March and an '07 Dallara or DP-01 go down the frontstretch at Indy side-by-side at 200 mph. More than that, they wouldn't care. They would care if Paul Tracy was in one and Marco Andretti was in the other one.

[garyshell]

So I say "oh" again. If editors at those sites bought into it..........has anyone ever seen a day by day breakdown? Has anyone ever put together independent media estimates day-by-day?


I'd extend that question to BOTH sides of the aisle. I'd like to see some REAL numbers from BOTH series.

Gary

[garyshell]

Jacques, the difference is that you don't hear boxcar numbers from the IRL that simply can't be believed.


Really? Now there is a leap of faith. What about the St. Pete numbers previously mentioned? Both sides are lying through their proverbial teeth. Neither can be trusted when it comes to the numbers. One inflates the numbers through the gate, the other touts the give away ticket numbers or includes bundled tickets without counting heads through turnstiles. Lies is lies.

Gary

[nanders]

nanders, it's hard to say the cars don't matter because a car doesn't go very
fast without a driver and a driver doesn't go very fast without a car.

Don't get me wrong I'm all for the driver. But AOWR is flat and to get all the old buzz back it will need to call on all the elements to make it great again. I personally don't think that's going to happen on the backs of new drivers alone. I don't think it's going to happen without a new formula that embraces a new form of propulsion. They will really need to shake this thing up if they have half a shot of recovering.

You have read me here before saying that they need to be all over the PR thing. Done massively it might get some new fans attention and might sell tickets. But you know successful racing enterprises need revenue from more sources then just prize money. They need manufacture support. And I don't mean just big auto. If they did go Hydrogen Electric they could also get the entrepreneurial HE companies too. Equallying "new blood."


But for the general spectator, he/she can't see "technology." If someone has a secret trick widget under the cowl that a secret engineer has developed in secret, the fan doesn't give a bleep. All he knows is "there goes Paul Tracy or Helio Castroneves down the straightaway."

When that turbine car whooshed by did they know? Do you remember the buzz when the turbine car came to Indy and the series? The new technology had buzz beyond where buzz had ever been in the series. Everyone I knew, knew about the turbine car. I would think if there was a Hydrogen Electric formula and new designs were coming from all over the place, you'd get that "turbine car buzz" all over again. It would be the place where proving the new technology happens! Isn't that what the car companies really want? A place where racing really translates into real world application?


The best example of this is the DP-01, which was promoted as the greatest thing that ever happened to motorsports as a come-on for people to jump on the CC bandwagon. Attendance, failed races and TV numbers said the DP-01 made absolutely no difference.

The DP01 is a horrible example ... It has a technology level somewhere around the 1989 Ferrari formula1 car. It was a sideways move at best. I think it was a step back because there was no oval package. Attendance failed because of many things including the spec formula is obsolete. What can you tell anybody about your "new" car in 2007 that has a very similar technology level to a 1989 F1 car?



Racing is sports entertainment. The part the people watch is the racing part and they couldn't care less or notice the difference in an '86 March and an '07 Dallara or DP-01 go down the frontstretch at Indy side-by-side at 200 mph. More than that, they wouldn't care. They would care if Paul Tracy was in one and Marco Andretti was in the other one.

I agree to a degree that people are passionate about the drivers but when I went to the IRL race at the Kansas Speedway this year (which was heavily attended ) I listened to the people around me and they were talking about car technology ..... from a different era , but they were.

You got to have the whole package. Putting those guys out there in a spec package or nearly spec package ain't gonna do it no matter how many series you combine into one. You need to get technology that has plenty of room to grow thrown in there too. That gets you the money, PR and synergy.

[indycool]

Gary, in general, so would I. But I disagree with your reason why you would like to see real IRL attendance numbers. People talk about free tickets. Relatively NONE are free. If Marlboro or Honda or some other sponsor makes a package deal with the promoter for tickets, hospitality, signage, a program ad and whatever else for "X" dollars, those tickets are paid for. They are NOT free.

nanders, sure the turbine car brought a lot of attention to things. That was a different era and a different economic structure than we are in today. And a different speed "target" that we are in today. OW organizations have been slowing the cars down by the rules for 30 years. One thing getting a lot of attention in IRL is running on ethanol and that Honda had no problem figuring out how to do it. THAT's something new. We can just agree to disagree on the importance of car technology, though.

[Jacques]

indycool : my point was that both series do it. To what extent or which one gets closer to the real number is not that important. The problem is that these issues are only pointed out when CC does it, not when the IRL does it.

How many show up at Texas ? Was the IRL able to save Fontana, Michigan or Milwaukee ? Have its 3 "original " road courses done any better than CC ? If you need to use CC as the yardstick to compare the IRL, then, well ... that is a problem !!!

Why, you ask ? I guess fot the same reason that TG's vision has changed over the years.

[garyshell]

Gary, in general, so would I. But I disagree with your reason why you would like to see real IRL attendance numbers. People talk about free tickets. Relatively NONE are free. If Marlboro or Honda or some other sponsor makes a package deal with the promoter for tickets, hospitality, signage, a program ad and whatever else for "X" dollars, those tickets are paid for. They are NOT free.

But counting the number of giveaway tickets or those bundled as part of a NASCAR ticket purchase as if they are eyeballs through the turnstiles is as fallacious as inflated numbers used by OWRS on occasion.

I never suggested those tickets didn't represent money in the promoters pocket (albeit at a significant discount). I am saying though, that using them as a head count is incorrect.

Gary

[Alexamateo]

An important point.
The key question is would the person attending have been there if they had to buy the ticket. I go to one or two baseball games a year. I don't particularly like baseball, but I get free tickets. I would not go if I had to pay for them.

There is one point I would like to add to this.

The only time I have ever been "in" racing was in college when I interned in public relations at Lowes (then Charlotte) Motor Speedway. This was when Eddie Gossage was in charge of PR there. They made more profit from concessions and souveniers than any other department. To them, the most important thing was to get people through the gate, how much or who paid for the ticket was almost irrelevent.

Gotta get 'em in the gate first in order to sell 'em a $6 beer :D

[indycool]

Understand what you're saying, Gary......the NFL had a system a few years ago (and maybe MLB if I remember right) that listed both buns on the boards and no-shows, two separate figures.