Haas plans to move NHL to IRL in 09

[Alfa Fan]

Champ Car team co-owner Carl Haas plans to take his multiple title-winning team to the rival IndyCar Series in 2009 if a merger between the two championships cannot be agreed before then.


Haas, who owns Champ Car's most successful team Newman/Haas/Lanigan Racing with Paul Newman an Mike Lanigan, told SpeedTV: "It hasn't happened yet but we've certainly considered going.


"It may not happen this year, but it's highly probably that we'll go for 2009 because there needs to be one series."


There have been several unsuccessful attempts to unify Champ Car and IRL in the 13 years since they split, but with only Paul Tracy, Graham Rahal and Oriol Servia confirmed so far for Champ Car this season, Indy boss Tony

George is rumoured to have proposed a new deal to Champ Car bosses.


Team PKV co-owner and 1996 Champ Car champion Jimmy Vasser is eager for the two series to unite as soon as possible: "We've got to make a deal with Tony George," he said.


But Conquest Racing boss Eric Bachelart believes there are still issues that prevent a successful merger: "The problem I see is that the IRL and Tony [George] would want control and that's tough for the Champ Car guys," he said.
http://www.autosport.com/images/space.gif

[mikiec]

I think you're a bit late with this one... see the other thread...
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124147

[PSfan]

Funny how the msg changes when the SAME story is presently only slightly differently:

As Taken from TSN.CA:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
While the Champ Car brass would not comment on the report, longtime owner Carl Haas tells SpeedTV.com that the end to the split is very near.

"It may not happen this year, but it's highly probable we'll do it in 2009 because there needs to be one series," says Haas, who admits to having discussions with George about switching series.

http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/news_story/?ID=228079&hubname=auto_racing
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

So now we have to decide, is Haas refering to a merger happening in 09, or his team switching in 09? Based on the fact that Haas threatened to switch either last yeast or the previous year, but Newman quicky countered with a press release with "well it was nice working with him... But I'm staying here" And shut Haas up real good (think this is the first time he's said anything since :p : )

[sanguin]

If it is correct, it may be just Haas alone.

I don't think TG has any interest in Lannigan's races, except to kill them off.

Also, as posted here, the free engines and cars are offered only for this year.

[BobGarage]

If it is correct, it may be just Haas alone.

I don't think TG has any interest in Lannigan's races, except to kill them off.

Also, as posted here, the free engines and cars are offered only for this year.

what have lanigans races got to do with it?
he can easily own a car in one series and own/promote a race or two in another series.

you keep bringing that up as a reason why NHL wouldn't leave, but the races have nothing to do with which series the team competes in.

the only stumbling block for the team moving to the IRL is Paul newman who we all know is 100% against it. Sadly he is not in good health at the moment, what if he steps down from the team at the end of the year due to that? There will be no force keeping them tied to champ car then.

[sanguin]

what have lanigans races got to do with it?
he can easily own a car in one series and own/promote a race or two in another series.

you keep bringing that up as a reason why NHL wouldn't leave, but the races have nothing to do with which series the team competes in.

the only stumbling block for the team moving to the IRL is Paul newman who we all know is 100% against it. Sadly he is not in good health at the moment, what if he steps down from the team at the end of the year due to that? There will be no force keeping them tied to champ car then.

huh? not following. Lannigan in IRL and CC?

[BobGarage]

huh? not following. Lannigan in IRL and CC?

I am saying what is to stop lanigan operating his races in champ car whilst running a team in the IRL.

YOU have repeatedly said NHL wont go to the IRL becuase the IRL doesn't want Lanigans races.

So I say what is to stop lanigan going to the IRL with his team but still operating his two champ car races?

You have repeatedly posted that because of lanigans races the team won't switch to the IRL. I say *****. There is nothing to stop him running a team in one series and races in another.

[sanguin]

I am saying what is to stop lanigan operating his races in champ car whilst running a team in the IRL.

YOU have repeatedly said NHL wont go to the IRL becuase the IRL doesn't want Lanigans races.

So I say what is to stop lanigan going to the IRL with his team but still operating his two champ car races?

You have repeatedly posted that because of lanigans races the team won't switch to the IRL. I say *****. There is nothing to stop him running a team in one series and races in another.

That's what I thought you were saying, but I don't think its makes any sense money wise or for the success and future of his events.

[BobGarage]

That's what I thought you were saying, but I don't think its makes any sense money wise or for the success and future of his events.

he may have no choice. if he wants to race in the IRL but his contracts are with CC then i see it as perfectly feasable that it could happen that way.

And what I am saying is that whatever happens to his races, they are not going to stop him moving his team to the IRL if he (and Haas/Newman) so wish. You keep throwing those races out there saying "oh he owns CC races so he won't go to the IRL". That just simply is not the case. His races are irrelevant to the running and future of his team.

[sanguin]

he may have no choice. if he wants to race in the IRL but his contracts are with CC then i see it as perfectly feasable that it could happen that way.

And what I am saying is that whatever happens to his races, they are not going to stop him moving his team to the IRL if he (and Haas/Newman) so wish. You keep throwing those races out there saying "oh he owns CC races so he won't go to the IRL". That just simply is not the case. His races are irrelevant to the running and future of his team.

I disagree ,the team is very relevent to his races. How can you promote your races and expect fans to show up if you're in another series?

sorry, that doesn't make sense moneywise or for the future or success of his events.

[PSfan]

he may have no choice. if he wants to race in the IRL

IF HE WANTED TO RACE IN THE IRL, HE WOULD ALREADY BE PARTNERED IN AN IRL TEAM!!!

why would he have joined NH last year if he wanted to be in IRL?!?!

[infoxicated]

Also, as posted here, the free engines and cars are offered only for this year.
I don't think we know that TG said that for certain - all we know is that Robin Miller has speculated it was for this year only.

Although I wouldn't blame TG if it was valid for this year only - if the lure of a car an engine, the TEAM programme, and a TV schedule that might bring in sponsors doesn't make sense to the Champ Car teams now then they deserve whatever the future brings.

[BobGarage]

I disagree ,the team is very relevent to his races. How can you promote your races and expect fans to show up if you're in another series?

because your promoting the event and not your team. Twice a year he promotes a race. that promotion is run by a completly seperate company than the team. The two having nothing to do with each other, the only thing they have in common is Mike Lanigan.

I really don't see why he can't sucessfully promote a race in one series and race in an other and you are not providing any argument that would change my view on that.

would you be arguing this fact if it was an ALMS race that Lanigan had decided to promote? Would you be saying oh he can't promote that race unless NHL switch to the ALMS? Or would you be all for it saying it is Mike building up his portfolio as a promoter and making money to boot.

I really don't see why (if it were to happen as Haas suggests) he couldn;t promote in one series and race in another.

[PSfan]

because your promoting the event and not your team. Twice a year he promotes a race. that promotion is run by a completly seperate company than the team. The two having nothing to do with each other, the only thing they have in common is Mike Lanigan.

I really don't see why he can't sucessfully promote a race in one series and race in an other and you are not providing any argument that would change my view on that.

would you be arguing this fact if it was an ALMS race that Lanigan had decided to promote? Would you be saying oh he can't promote that race unless NHL switch to the ALMS? Or would you be all for it saying it is Mike building up his portfolio as a promoter and making money to boot.

I really don't see why (if it were to happen as Haas suggests) he couldn;t promote in one series and race in another.

We're not saying he couldn't... we're saying he wouldn't

It would be like the owner of the New York Islanders only watching hockey at MSG (Rangers games)

It would be like a vegetarian raising cattle to be slaughtered for beef

[BobGarage]

we're saying he wouldn't


and you know this because you've spoken to him and he's said so? or are you just assuming he wouldn't.

I think your analogies are slightly over the top. Its not like that at all. It would purely and simply Mike Lanigans promotions company promoting a few events to make profit. That is I believe what such companies do.

As I said in the Tony Cotman thread a few days ago. The only animosity between the two series is between the two sets of fans and the two sets of owners. To everyone else (team owners, drivers, pit crews etc) its just a job!

If Mike Lanigan went racing in the IRL and he thought his promotions business could still make money from promoting champ car races then he would.

[bblocker68]

I know I'm drifting a little off topic here, but weren't the IRL supposed to be cahnging to a new chassis in 2009? Would there be any possible chance that the new proposed series use the Panoz DP09 (superleague) or something similar to it? Could the DP01 then be retro-fitted to the DP09 specs? The DP09 is an offshoot of the DP01. I remember there were plans drawn up for an oval package also.

Makes me also wonder if there are still plans laying around for the Cosworth to take the normally aspirated route from when Joe Heitzler wanted to make the CART specs match the IRL in 2001 (2002?).

[champmember]

As I said in the Tony Cotman thread a few days ago. The only animosity between the two series is between the two sets of fans and the two sets of owners. To everyone else (team owners, drivers, pit crews etc) its just a job!




How quick everyone forgets some of his ties from this past year. To help support the above comment:

In January 2007, a partnership including Carl Haas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Haas), Travis Carter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travis_Carter), Mari Hulman George, and Michael T. Lanigan (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Michael_T._Lanigan&action=edit) announced that was purchasing ppc Racing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ppc_Racing) and would field the #14 Ford Fusion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Fusion_%28North_American%29) with Krisiloff as the driver. The car was to be sponsored by Clabber Girl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clabber_Girl), which is part of the Hulman-George family holdings, but later gained sponsorship from Walgreens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walgreens) and Eli Lilly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eli_Lilly). (from wikipedia)

Haas and Lanigan already have a relationship with The George family.

[PSfan]

and you know this because you've spoken to him and he's said so? or are you just assuming he wouldn't.

There is a whole lot of assumptions in this thread. For starters the title of this thread assumes that Newman and Lannigan would follow Haas to IRL... History has proven this unlikely

You assume there is no clause in Lannigans promotion contracts preventing him from promoting, or participation in a rival series.

I'm assuming Lannigan wouldn't participate in anything that would drop the champcar car count, and put his race promotions in jeopardy

I'm also assuming that Newman already proving that he wore the pants @ NH racing, that he wouldn't have agreed to let Lannigan join the team if they didn't share the same opinions regarding a possible switch to the IRL

[gofastandwynn]

How quick everyone forgets some of his ties from this past year. To help support the above comment:

In January 2007, a partnership including Carl Haas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Haas), Travis Carter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travis_Carter), Mari Hulman George, and Michael T. Lanigan (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Michael_T._Lanigan&action=edit) announced that was purchasing ppc Racing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ppc_Racing) and would field the #14 Ford Fusion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Fusion_%28North_American%29) with Krisiloff as the driver. The car was to be sponsored by Clabber Girl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clabber_Girl), which is part of the Hulman-George family holdings, but later gained sponsorship from Walgreens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walgreens) and Eli Lilly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eli_Lilly). (from wikipedia)

Haas and Lanigan already have a relationship with The George family.

Mi-Jack was also a sponsor of the Indy 500 last year. Now, why would Lanigan sponsor a race that he doesn't want to be a part of?

[sanguin]

Mi-Jack was also a sponsor of the Indy 500 last year. Now, why would Lanigan sponsor a race that he doesn't want to be a part of?

Where did you see that?

It's not here- http://www.indy500.com/sponsors/

prove it.

[nanders]

Funny how the msg changes when the SAME story is presently only slightly differently:

As Taken from TSN.CA:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
While the Champ Car brass would not comment on the report, longtime owner Carl Haas tells SpeedTV.com that the end to the split is very near.

"It may not happen this year, but it's highly probable we'll do it in 2009 because there needs to be one series," says Haas, who admits to having discussions with George about switching series.

http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/news_story/?ID=228079&hubname=auto_racing
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

So now we have to decide, is Haas refering to a merger happening in 09, or his team switching in 09? Based on the fact that Haas threatened to switch either last yeast or the previous year, but Newman quicky countered with a press release with "well it was nice working with him... But I'm staying here" And shut Haas up real good (think this is the first time he's said anything since :p : )

Hass has went racing many times in different series including formula 1 without PLN.

[pvtjoker]

Where did you see that?

It's not here- http://www.indy500.com/sponsors/

prove it.

Well, I couldn't tell you if Mi-Jack sponsored an IRL race in '07 (nor do I really care), but the page you're referencing is for this year's race. Also, Lanigan has a relationship with the Hulmans as he co-owns the Busch/Nationwide tour ride driven by Kyle Krisiloff, nephew of TG.

http://www.nascar.com/2007/news/headlines/bg/01/21/k.krisiloff.newman.hass.team/index.html

[nanders]

.

Also, as posted here, the free engines and cars are offered only for this year.

I'm needing a link to the quote that says it's for only this year.

[sanguin]

Well, I couldn't tell you if Mi-Jack sponsored an IRL race in '07 (nor do I really care), but the page you're referencing is for this year's race. Also, Lanigan has a relationship with the Hulmans as he co-owns the Busch/Nationwide tour ride driven by Kyle Krisiloff, nephew of TG.

http://www.nascar.com/2007/news/headlines/bg/01/21/k.krisiloff.newman.hass.team/index.html

Originally Posted by Jayski
#14 Team Closing? hearing that the #14 team has announced the closing of their operations effective Friday, due to no sponsorship. The team competed the full season with Kyle Krisiloff driving. Wallgreens joined them as a sponsor in June.(11-28-2007)

[sanguin]

I'm needing a link to the quote that says it's for only this year.

Tybars said it.

[nanders]

he may have no choice. if he wants to race in the IRL but his contracts are with CC then i see it as perfectly feasable that it could happen that way.

And what I am saying is that whatever happens to his races, they are not going to stop him moving his team to the IRL if he (and Haas/Newman) so wish. You keep throwing those races out there saying "oh he owns CC races so he won't go to the IRL". That just simply is not the case. His races are irrelevant to the running and future of his team.

And if the series stop operation will Lanigan even have races in CCWS?

Bob, sanguin operates in another form of reality outside of the real world. I even find myself wanting to argue with him, but it's not going to chance him from making statements as facts when they are truly fantasy speculation. When you challenge him for links to proof he will always ignores you because he wants to live in his CCWS fantasy.

[heelntoe]

And if the series stop operation will Lanigan even have races in CCWS?

Bob, sanguin operates in another form of reality outside of the real world. I even find myself wanting to argue with him, but it's not going to chance him from making statements as facts when they are truly fantasy speculation. When you challenge him for links to proof he will always ignores you because he wants to live in his CCWS fantasy.

Ain't that the truth! But as I just wrote in another thread...his fifteen minutes are over...now it's just content for a future coffee table to look back at and chuckle :)

[nanders]

Tybars said it.

Another case of speculation thrown back up as fact? You argue speculation as fact quite a bit and I don't get it. I would suggest, as you bring one of your "ideas" forward as fact that you are at least be prepared to back it up with a link that gets you off the hook. And when somebody else here post something that is speculation you don't regurgitated it fact because it is burning forum space.

I'm thinking of several colorful metaphors but am afraid to be put on detention at such a fun time.

[sanguin]

And if the series stop operation will Lanigan even have races in CCWS?



The series isn't going to just stop operation. There are assets involved and contracts. It's not going belly up or stopping or going away. There are owners who have a vested interest in what happens to CC.

[sanguin]

Another case of speculation thrown back up as fact?

Sorry, I thought Tybars was one of your buddies who is never wrong. Go look it up. Regardless, I think the freebies are only for this year because its now or never for the other series.

[nanders]

Sorry, I thought Tybars was one of your buddies who is never wrong.

Speculation again. Sanguin it is you "who is never wrong." *tongue in cheek*



Go look it up.

Don't say it unless you can back it up. You are inflammatory and it's hurting your credibility.


Regardless, I think the freebies are only for this year because its now or never for the other series.

That's better. I think it could possibly be "now or never" for both series. That's why I want a Hydrogen Electric formula change asap.

[cartpix]

The series isn't going to just stop operation. There are assets involved and contracts. It's not going belly up or stopping or going away. There are owners who have a vested interest in what happens to CC.


If the series goes belly up, who's going to run the contracted races. KK with 2 or 3 cars, Forsythe with 1 or 2, Paul G. with none to 1? Oh yeah, Conquest is flush with 2 cars & Newman Lanigan with 1 or 2. That's 10, TOPS! I have a feeling if one team jumps, the rest will follow, in droves. Then what? I know, sanguin will blame it all, on TG because he held all their arms, behind their backs & made them jump.

Jeff

[cartpix]

You are inflammatory and it's hurting your credibility.

What does inflammatory have to do with hurting sanguin's credibility. That would also make someone think he had any. That must be speculation, on your part, nanders. ;-)

Jeff

[gofastandwynn]

Where did you see that?

It's not here- http://www.indy500.com/sponsors/

prove it.


You like apples?

See, I didn't look on the internet, I was there.

From the 2007 Indianapolis 500 - Mile Race Official Program, Page 30, Qualifying/Practice Awards:

Mi-Jack "Top Preformance" Award
Awarded to the driver recording the fastest single qualifying lap
Mi-Jack Products

How do you like them apples?

[nanders]

If the series goes belly up, who's going to run the contracted races. KK with 2 or 3 cars, Forsythe with 1 or 2, Paul G. with none to 1? Oh yeah, Conquest is flush with 2 cars & Newman Lanigan with 1 or 2. That's 10, TOPS! I have a feeling if one team jumps, the rest will follow, in droves. Then what? I know, sanguin will blame it all, on TG because he held all their arms, behind their backs & made them jump.

Jeff

I would be surprised if any of them went this year unless it was an Indy only deal. And that's going to be real hard with Laguna's schedule.


What does inflammatory have to do with hurting sanguin's credibility. That would also make someone think he had any. That must be speculation, on your part, nanders. ;-)

I was trying to be a little nicer then I usually am.

[CCFanatic]

You like apples?

See, I didn't look on the internet, I was there.

From the 2007 Indianapolis 500 - Mile Race Official Program, Page 30, Qualifying/Practice Awards:

Mi-Jack "Top Preformance" Award
Awarded to the driver recording the fastest single qualifying lap
Mi-Jack Products

How do you like them apples?

Sorry mate, but I still do not see that. Let me go check my program as well, as I myself, was also there, as well as a few hundre thousand as well.

[FerrrariF1]

The real question is why all of a sudden is George looking to make a deal?

Things aren't looking rosey on his side either

Maybe if he was sincere in the past during talks the Champcar owners would have more faith in his offer

GEORGE CAN NOT BE TRUSTED!!!

[gofastandwynn]

Sorry mate, but I still do not see that. Let me go check my program as well, as I myself, was also there, as well as a few hundre thousand as well.

This is about as much as I can zoom in and keep the quality.

[nigelred5]

Maybe he still wants to SAVE American Open Wheel racing ;)

[Jonesi]

I know I'm drifting a little off topic here, but weren't the IRL supposed to be cahnging to a new chassis in 2009? Would there be any possible chance that the new proposed series use the Panoz DP09 (superleague) or something similar to it? Could the DP01 then be retro-fitted to the DP09 specs? The DP09 is an offshoot of the DP01. I remember there were plans drawn up for an oval package also.

Makes me also wonder if there are still plans laying around for the Cosworth to take the normally aspirated route from when Joe Heitzler wanted to make the CART specs match the IRL in 2001 (2002?).

I thought when the current IRL cars were introduced the announced replacement schedule was to be '08, before being pushed back. (Don't want to go to the trouble of researching it. If someone has a link to the info I wouldn't mind seeing it, whichever the answer is.) In any case the cars & design is getting old and needs to be replace soon. Didn't think there was much difference between the CC or Superleague version of the Panoz (except air scoop).

One thing I question about the rumored TG offer. Where is he going to get 18-25 IRL chassis if the deal is for '08? Is he counting on using four year old cars that have been into the wall 5-6 times? Would any CC team want them?

If for '09, is he going to order new cars of an old chassis that will be replaced a year later? Or if a new chassis, how can he buy new cars for the CC teams but tell the loyal IRL teams to go buy their own? No he'll end up buying them all a cost of $10-15 mil. So I question if this really a valid offer, or he just want to attract a team or two? which is the same ____ he pulled a time or two before.

[tbyars]

The real question is why all of a sudden is George looking to make a deal?

He's not making a deal.

He's offering to administer the coup de grace.

[infoxicated]

He's offering to administer the coup de grace.
oooh!

What speaks french and makes love like an animal?

Moi! :D

[Roninho]

The real question is why all of a sudden is George looking to make a deal?

Things aren't looking rosey on his side either

Maybe if he was sincere in the past during talks the Champcar owners would have more faith in his offer

GEORGE CAN NOT BE TRUSTED!!!

Maybe because he sees that champar is having a hard time and that this is a great time to kill it off (yep, coup de grace does sound better).....

Awful tv-deal, the dp01 did not result in more cars, Forsythe not attending races in months, Forsythe almost dropping PT, only like 2 confirmed drivers, Matos moving to IPS, San Jose, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Denver all being dropped, etc. etc. etc.

Even Haas, Vasser and Walker agree that it's in their interest to align with indy.....

[FlatChatRacer]

Bingo Roninho,

The vultures are circling because they can smell death. Seriously though, it is just ruthless business on the part of Tony George.

[beachbum]

Bingo Roninho,

The vultures are circling because they can smell death. Seriously though, it is just ruthless business on the part of Tony George.Racing is a very ruthless business, more brutal that most people care to admit. The weak don't survive.

[sanguin]

The real question is why all of a sudden is George looking to make a deal?

Things aren't looking rosey on his side either

Maybe if he was sincere in the past during talks the Champcar owners would have more faith in his offer

GEORGE CAN NOT BE TRUSTED!!!

TG is a desperate as anyone.

[pvtjoker]

The real question is why all of a sudden is George looking to make a deal?

Things aren't looking rosey on his side either

Maybe if he was sincere in the past during talks the Champcar owners would have more faith in his offer

GEORGE CAN NOT BE TRUSTED!!!

...and yet, you continue to "trust" the Amigos as they flush "CC down the toliet"?

[pvtjoker]

You like apples?

See, I didn't look on the internet, I was there.

From the 2007 Indianapolis 500 - Mile Race Official Program, Page 30, Qualifying/Practice Awards:

Mi-Jack "Top Preformance" Award
Awarded to the driver recording the fastest single qualifying lap
Mi-Jack Products

How do you like them apples?

Doh...so much for his creditability...

[sanguin]

Doh...so much for his creditability...

how does my post ruin my cred?

I asked for proof because I couldn't find it.


Where did you see that?

It's not here- http://www.indy500.com/sponsors/

prove it.

posting 101.

[ChaimWitz]

After reading the wide range of posts on these forums over the past week I am struck by the fact that most of us now realize that we all have more in common than we have differences between us.

I also have to chuckle when I read jimispeed's signature line: "Champ Car, continuing since 1909".

Steve Johnson has also uttered a variation of this thought on occasion. Something to the effect of: "ChampCar is nearly 100 years old".

To me this deceptive propaganda underscores the delusional thinking behind the OWRS owners '"plans". You can't claim a heritage with one hand while rejecting it with another. In other words, you can’t embrace the American National Championship are reject oval racing. It simply doesn’t ring true.

Here is what does ring true:

The American National Championship that Jimispeed and Steve Johnson claim as ChampCar’s heritage is recognized to have begun in 1909. Although the majority of the races run in the early years were run over the open roads (since few permanent circuits existed) the series soon became an oval centric sport and stayed that way until the CART era of the early 1980s when the sport was dominated by teams that were refugees from the SCCA Can-Am and the SCCA Formula 5000 Series before it. These road racing series had one thing in common: They weren’t financially viable or sustainable for the sanctioning bodies, the promoters or the teams.

Back to 1909: There was one permanent circuit on the schedule of that first American National Championship season. It was a 2.5 mile oval near Indianapolis Indiana. Two races were held there in that inaugural season and with the Inaugural Indianapolis 500 in 1911, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway became the global icon of American racing culture ever since.

Oh, did I mention that the Vanderbilt cup is a copy commissioned in 1996 for the Inaugural US 500. BTW, what ever happened to that race?

So, back to my point: ChampCar has not been “continuing since 1909”. It has been continuing since Judge Otte’s gavel fell in an Indianapolis bankruptcy court on January 28, 2004. There is a big difference between 99 years and four years.

In my view, the bloodline of the American National Championship runs through the AAA, USAC, CART and now, arguable the Indy Car series for a number of reasons:

* The Indy Car series has the Indianapolis 500. The history of this great race is inexorably intertwined with the American National Championship.

* The sixteen event Indy Car Series races in the United States. Currently only one race (Motegi) is held out of the country.

* The ChampCar World Series holds eight of its 14 races out of the country.

* The Indy Car Series holds races on ovals and the Champ Car World Series has chosen to abandon them.

* Oval racing is and was the defining discipline of the American National Championship. If they were still alive what would, Ted Horn or Jimmy Bryan think about this situation today? Would the recognize Champ Car as he rightful heir to the sport they loved?

With a combined series as outlined by the Robin Miller story we could again have a sport with the best of both best worlds. A mix of Street Circuits, Natural Terrain Road Courses, Super Speedways, Speedways and Short Ovals. Product confusion would be ended (some could argue that it already has been by Champ Car’s disappearing act in the USA) and the sport could focus on progress rather than pain.

Think about it: The dual anniversaries of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and the American National Championship in 2009 provide the perfect opportunity to reposition and re launch our great sport as it enters its second century. It will be so much more meaningful and powerful if we celebrate these milestones together.

“IndyCar Racing, continuing since 1909.” Now, that rings true.

[gofastandwynn]

how does my post ruin my cred?

I asked for proof because I couldn't find it.



posting 101.

So then answer my question. Why would Lanigan sponsor a race that he doesn't want to be a part of?

And it was really more with the prove it that changed the tone, see...


Where did you see that?

It's not here- http://www.indy500.com/sponsors/



Same message, more friendly :)

[weeflyonthewall]

Time for another merger MODS. Merge two threads discussing the same subject.

[Roninho]

Bingo Roninho,

The vultures are circling because they can smell death. Seriously though, it is just ruthless business on the part of Tony George.

i think that's just with any business.

If i look at our company, people get fired, other companies try to hire people from us, we try to get new companies as our clients (which means they have to ditch their current supplier), we try to get exclusive rights so that competitors cannot get acces to certain products etc. etc.

It's a tough world.

[PSfan]

I'm needing a link to the quote that says it's for only this year.

Post #123 in the "Tony George Makes an Offer for Unity"


Everyone should keep in mind that TG's offer of chassis and engines is for 2008 ONLY.

And come on, if heelntoe says its for one year...


So then answer my question. Why would Lanigan sponsor a race that he doesn't want to be a part of?

Its really sad that its up to me to bring little, only slightly important facts into this. Not only did Mi-Jack sponsor that fastest qualy lap trophy, they also sponsored the #99 car in last years 500 too!!!

Guess who does not show up on their list of sponsors on the NHL web page? Mi-Jack... you would think with Mike Lanigans influence that it would show up just as "Newman's Own" does. What does this tell us? That Jack Lanigan is running the show at Mi-Jack. That Mike Lanigan as he relates to NHL, is operating independantly to Mi-Jack.

[FerrrariF1]

...and yet, you continue to "trust" the Amigos as they flush "CC down the toliet"?

Better to trust them then some rich kid who destroyed open wheeled racing in the United States.Do you really think that IF Champcar closes down that open wheeled racing will return to to the glory days prior to the rich kid deciding to split to feed his ego?IF Champcar no longer races in 2009 or whatever you will see Champcar fans revolt against the IRL which will drive sponsors away even more. He is the most hated man in the world of motorsports.The only way for open wheeled racing to survive is a complete merger with the single series being run by an independant third party and joint ownership. That is the only way that open wheeled racing can be repaired and start a slow and painful process to recover.

[heelntoe]

Better to trust them then some rich kid who destroyed open wheeled racing in the United States.Do you really think that IF Champcar closes down that open wheeled racing will return to to the glory days prior to the rich kid deciding to split to feed his ego?IF Champcar no longer races in 2009 or whatever you will see Champcar fans revolt against the IRL which will drive sponsors away even more. He is the most hated man in the world of motorsports.The only way for open wheeled racing to survive is a complete merger with the single series being run by an independant third party and joint ownership. That is the only way that open wheeled racing can be repaired and start a slow and painful process to recover.

Sorry, but either you haven't been keeping up, or you just don't get it one bit. THERE WILL BE NO MERGER...TEAMS WILL EITHER JOIN THE ONE SERIES THAT SURVIVES IN '09 OR SOONER OR THEY WON'T. You should be able to tell about how CCWS fans really feel right from this forum where even the most die-hard fans have realized that for the survival of the sport, there is no other choice. And why care about the Amigos as they can't even get along with themselves at this point? To say TG is the most hated man in motorsports is to say you are part of that other dark place...and frankly, that other place doesn't factor one bit in the future success of open wheel racing in the US. As far as your comment about sponsors, that is the most incorrect statement possible...I work in that space every day and the assimilation of the series is EXACTLY what they are waiting for...period!!!

[BobGarage]

Sorry, but either you haven't been keeping up, or you just don't get it one bit. THERE WILL BE NO MERGER...TEAMS WILL EITHER JOIN THE ONE SERIES THAT SURVIVES IN '09 OR SOONER OR THEY WON'T. You should be able to tell about how CCWS fans really feel right from this forum where even the most die-hard fans have realized that for the survival of the sport, there is no other choice. And why care about the Amigos as they can't even get along with themselves at this point? To say TG is the most hated man in motorsports is to say you are part of that other dark place...and frankly, that other place doesn't factor one bit in the future success of open wheel racing in the US. As far as your comment about sponsors, that is the most incorrect statement possible...I work in that space every day and the assimilation of the series is EXACTLY what they are waiting for...period!!!

If there is no merger then many champ car fans will not switch to watch the IRL, even if the teams do join the series.

Yes many fans accept than one series is needed and now. I am one of them. But if champ car just goes under and there is no merger I for one will not watch the IRL. I will watch more ALMS and A1GP.

If there is no merger AOWR is dead in my eyes. A merger is needed and just one series, but if my options are the IRL or nothing, I chose nothing.

I will occasionally watch races. the 500 and some road courses but not the full season and I will not watch them on TV. I will not give TG any extra ratings I will simply download them from a torrent site a few days after if I so wish.

If anyone thinks that all champ car fans will happily watch the IRL if champ car was to die they are mistaken. Yes some will but many will not. A merger most would give a chance too but not the death of champ car. Without a merger TG's vision will struggle just as much as it does today.

[badgerbaiter]

If anyone thinks that all champ car fans will happily watch the IRL if champ car was to die they are mistaken. Yes some will but many will not. A merger most would give a chance too but not the death of champ car. Without a merger TG's vision will struggle just as much as it does today.

Absolutely

If CCWS dies then I'll just do something else on my sunday evenings. I might watch some ALMS, but i certainly wont be adding to the viewing figures of IRL and indirectly lining TG's dirty pockets.

[994ever]

I see many people espousing the idea that "everyone knows there needs to be one series NOW". That's not quite right. Everyone knew there needed to be one series a long time ago. Everyone knew there needed to be one series in 1996.

Of course, we didn't get that, and we still don't have that, although it looks like it might be coming in the near future.

All that I know is that the current CCWS product is not worth it for me. The IRL product never has been.

As well, I'd caution those who believe that having one series will somehow fix something. Actual tangible facts don't suggest that at all.

Tony George screwed up the one thing that should have been impossible to screw up, and now he's going to be in charge of bringing the sport of Indycar back to life?

I'm certainly willing to keep an open mind, and if the sport ever becomes entertaining again I might come back. But with Tony George in charge, I certainly won't be holding my breath, based on his track record.

[Cart750hp]

Absolutely

If CCWS dies then I'll just do something else on my sunday evenings. I might watch some ALMS, but i certainly wont be adding to the viewing figures of IRL and indirectly lining TG's dirty pockets.

Hmmm. I understand where you are coming from.

If CC dies AND CC teams happen to be heading to IRL, sure, I would like to see how things will be. I'm pro-one-series and if this what it comes down to, I will always have my open-mind, and I believe most in here. What TG, the moron, done before is done. He didn't get what he wanted, obviously, and CC couldn't be any worse. TG may well be the most hated man in motorsport but I believe that proves he's doing something right. In BUSINESS, this is the reality. Racing is in the market for selling advertisement, entertainment and sport...and if you fail one, you fail all. If IRL joins the CC or CC joins the IRL, I will check it out, for the sake of the sport rather than personal views. If soon to be IRL/CC couldn't do the job to entertain or put some good show, well, that's when I leave and see F1 or ALMS. Just my opinion.

[FerrrariF1]

Sorry, but either you haven't been keeping up, or you just don't get it one bit. THERE WILL BE NO MERGER...TEAMS WILL EITHER JOIN THE ONE SERIES THAT SURVIVES IN '09 OR SOONER OR THEY WON'T. You should be able to tell about how CCWS fans really feel right from this forum where even the most die-hard fans have realized that for the survival of the sport, there is no other choice. And why care about the Amigos as they can't even get along with themselves at this point? To say TG is the most hated man in motorsports is to say you are part of that other dark place...and frankly, that other place doesn't factor one bit in the future success of open wheel racing in the US. As far as your comment about sponsors, that is the most incorrect statement possible...I work in that space every day and the assimilation of the series is EXACTLY what they are waiting for...period!!!

You don't have any facts to backed that statement that there would not be any merger if so please provide them. I am in attendance in about 15 major races a year which include F1/Champcar/ALMS as the anchor event which of course includes all the support races. I hang out evenings with hundreds of race fans a year and we all sit around have a few beers and talk racing. When the subject of Tony George does come up over 90% blame him for the split as well as show no respect for who he is and what he stands for. These are grass roots real fans who spend weekends at the races and spend the real money buying tickets, merchandise etc.As far as the sponsors go talk is one thing and actually putting the money up is another.Question for you is why haven't they put up their money now in either series?Please don't tell me that they are waiting for a joint series before they put their money up. Also why are the top IRL racers defecting or chomping at the it when their contracts are up if there is going to be one series? Wouldn't they want to stay if the end is near? If Tony George is such a great leader and the one to lead a unified series why are these drivers leaving and why doesn't the IRL have 25 or 30 cars fields? They have just a few cars more than the Champcar series and most of those cars (on both sides) are heavily backed by the series and not sponsors. Names on the sides of cars mean nothing it's what they pony up that makes a difference. I can give you names of major car sponsors on both sides that pay very little for that space and you'd be shocked at what some of they pay for that space. We are talking less than 6 figures in the majority of teams on BOTH sides.BTW the same holds true on the Champcar side in regards to Paul Gentolozi who is the most hated man in Champcar. Fans believe that a great deal of Champcar's issues are due to GF and KK listening to him which has lead to many poor decisions.What I find amazing is that the IRL can't find new owners to join there series and that they need to poach teams from Champcar. Why don't they provide the same support with the PDM's Cahill's Simon's Scandia's etc of the world that were there in the beginning supporting the series? It would cost less than offering millions upon millions to NHL, or Walker etc.Would be interested in your answer on that question. I have posed it to many others and the answer is all the same. It's all about destroying one series in order to prop up the other as well as ego. These are the same tatics used by Hilter, Stalin, etc. In the end they have all fallen and I for one see this as happening to openwheeled racing in the USA if under the dicatorship of Tony George. BTW KK or GF are not the answer either.

[FlatChatRacer]

All we can do is give the unified series a chance to unfold and present itself for our consumption. Who is in charge should not matter to us. If the product on show is entertaining, then why should we care if the person or persons running it are TG and friends or the Amigos?

[994ever]

If the product on show is entertaining, then why should we care if the person or persons running it are TG and friends or the Amigos?

You are right.

That said, the problem is that judging by recent history, the chances that a series run by Tony George will be healthy or popular are not good at all.

I guess all I can say is that if there was to be a truly "new beginning", ow might gain back some fans on hope alone. As it is, with Mr. George in charge, that ain't going to happen...unless of course, things improve.

[FlatChatRacer]

994ever,

Give it a chance. Every one of us who is an adult has had a situation where we made a mistake or incorrect decision and then wished we had the chance to correct it.

I don't know you, but I can with a certain amount confidence say that there must have been one or more occasions in your past life, where you given the chance now, you would do something different.

Give Tony a chance to do something different. Isn't one aspect of life about getting a second chance to make things right?

[nanders]

I see many people espousing the idea that "everyone knows there needs to be one series NOW". That's not quite right. Everyone knew there needed to be one series a long time ago. Everyone knew there needed to be one series in 1996.

Of course, we didn't get that, and we still don't have that, although it looks like it might be coming in the near future.

All that I know is that the current CCWS product is not worth it for me. The IRL product never has been.

As well, I'd caution those who believe that having one series will somehow fix something. Actual tangible facts don't suggest that at all.

Tony George screwed up the one thing that should have been impossible to screw up, and now he's going to be in charge of bringing the sport of Indycar back to life?

I'm certainly willing to keep an open mind, and if the sport ever becomes entertaining again I might come back. But with Tony George in charge, I certainly won't be holding my breath, based on his track record.

Don't give up on hate ... This will just usher in a new era of hating *TG!

[994ever]

994ever,

Give it a chance. Every one of us who is an adult has had a situation where we made a mistake or incorrect decision and then wished we had the chance to correct it.

I don't know you, but I can with a certain amount confidence say that there must have been one or more occasions in your past life, where you given the chance now, you would do something different.

Give Tony a chance to do something different. Isn't one aspect of life about getting a second chance to make things right?


As I said in another thread, I'll keep an open mind. But I'm out for now, whether there are two series or one. Neither has enough to keep me interested right now. I won't say that I'll never watch a unified Indycar, but a lot of things are going to have to change before it interests me. That's all I'm saying.

[nanders]

You don't have any facts to backed that statement that there would not be any merger if so please provide them. I am in attendance in about 15 major races a year which include F1/Champcar/ALMS as the anchor event which of course includes all the support races. I hang out evenings with hundreds of race fans a year and we all sit around have a few beers and talk racing. When the subject of Tony George does come up over 90% blame him for the split as well as show no respect for who he is and what he stands for. These are grass roots real fans who spend weekends at the races and spend the real money buying tickets, merchandise etc.As far as the sponsors go talk is one thing and actually putting the money up is another.Question for you is why haven't they put up their money now in either series?Please don't tell me that they are waiting for a joint series before they put their money up. Also why are the top IRL racers defecting or chomping at the it when their contracts are up if there is going to be one series? Wouldn't they want to stay if the end is near? If Tony George is such a great leader and the one to lead a unified series why are these drivers leaving and why doesn't the IRL have 25 or 30 cars fields? They have just a few cars more than the Champcar series and most of those cars (on both sides) are heavily backed by the series and not sponsors. Names on the sides of cars mean nothing it's what they pony up that makes a difference. I can give you names of major car sponsors on both sides that pay very little for that space and you'd be shocked at what some of they pay for that space. We are talking less than 6 figures in the majority of teams on BOTH sides.BTW the same holds true on the Champcar side in regards to Paul Gentolozi who is the most hated man in Champcar. Fans believe that a great deal of Champcar's issues are due to GF and KK listening to him which has lead to many poor decisions.What I find amazing is that the IRL can't find new owners to join there series and that they need to poach teams from Champcar. Why don't they provide the same support with the PDM's Cahill's Simon's Scandia's etc of the world that were there in the beginning supporting the series? It would cost less than offering millions upon millions to NHL, or Walker etc.Would be interested in your answer on that question. I have posed it to many others and the answer is all the same. It's all about destroying one series in order to prop up the other as well as ego. These are the same tatics used by Hilter, Stalin, etc. In the end they have all fallen and I for one see this as happening to openwheeled racing in the USA if under the dicatorship of Tony George. BTW KK or GF are not the answer either.

same old story one more time ... zzzzzzzzzzzz

Give Tony enough rope to hang himself. If he does a good job he'll be good if he does a bad job then put the pressure on him.

[FlatChatRacer]

994ever,

I hope that the news coming in the next few weeks and months is enough to change your mind and bring you back. We need everyone to unite if AOWR is to recover it's former glories.

We need fans like you.

[pvtjoker]

These are the same tatics used by Hilter, Stalin, etc. In the end they have all fallen and I for one see this as happening to openwheeled racing in the USA if under the dicatorship of Tony George. BTW KK or GF are not the answer either.

Good grief! Get a grip, buddy!

To compare TG to two of the 20th century's most notable murderers is absolutely assinine and offensive...no matter what side of the fence you fall on (CC or IRL). How dumb!

I wish you could have been with me on my last tour in Iraq a few years back. It would have put this IRL/CC "feud" into real perspective. YOu should be ashamed of yourself for making such a comparison. JMO.

[994ever]

Good grief! Get a grip, buddy!

To compare TG to two of the 20th century's most notable murderers is absolutely assinine and offensive...no matter what side of the fence you fall on (CC or IRL). How dumb!

I wish you could have been with me on my last tour in Iraq a few years back. It would have put this IRL/CC "feud" into real perspective. YOu should be ashamed of yourself for making such a comparison. JMO.

Seconded.

[Cart750hp]

Good grief! Get a grip, buddy!

To compare TG to two of the 20th century's most notable murderers is absolutely assinine and offensive...no matter what side of the fence you fall on (CC or IRL). How dumb!

Sickening, I should say.

[ChaimWitz]

Good grief! Get a grip, buddy!

To compare TG to two of the 20th century's most notable murderers is absolutely assinine and offensive...no matter what side of the fence you fall on (CC or IRL). How dumb!

I wish you could have been with me on my last tour in Iraq a few years back. It would have put this IRL/CC "feud" into real perspective. YOu should be ashamed of yourself for making such a comparison. JMO.

pvtjoker-Thank you for a much-needed dose of perspective. Some here confuse their egos with the real issues. The open wheel "war" isn't a war at all. It is a competition of business models and sporting ideology. Hate has no place in this so let's remember to treat each other with respect. I don't agree with some posters here but I do appreciate their passion and commitment to the sport we all love.

For most of us this is a hobby that we are passionate about. For some it is also a business that we have given the best years of our life to. For all of us it should also be a place where we find hope in that there are still people who care about Open Wheel Racing in the USA as much as we do.

Over the years, I have come to personally know all but one of the key individuals in the leadership of both series. While I don't particularly like or trust a few of them on either side but I don't feel there is a reason to hate any of them. My sense is that their behavior, good or bad, will define each and everyone of them in the end and the end of the competition seems to be at hand.

The time has come for all of us to move forward together. Here's to a better future for our sport.

[heelntoe]

pvtjoker-Thank you for a much-needed dose of perspective. Some here confuse their egos with the real issues. The open wheel "war" isn't a war at all. It is a competition of business models and sporting ideology. Hate has no place in this so let's remember to treat each other with respect. I don't agree with some posters here but I do appreciate their passion and commitment to the sport we all love.

For most of us this is a hobby that we are passionate about. For some it is also a business that we have given the best years of our life to. For all of us it should also be a place where we find hope in that there are still people who care about Open Wheel Racing in the USA as much as we do.

Over the years, I have come to personally know all but one of the key individuals in the leadership of both series. While I don't particularly like or trust a few of them on either side but I don't feel there is a reason to hate any of them. My sense is that their behavior, good or bad, will define each and everyone of them in the end and the end of the competition seems to be at hand.

The time has come for all of us to move forward together. Here's to a better future for our sport.

Amen to that!

[FlatChatRacer]

Amen again.

[nigelred5]

If either side was able to quit worrying about competing with the other and how they aere going to kill of the other side and concentrate on making the series a good open competetive form of racing again, we'd all be for the better. We can hope for the end of the IRL all we want, but if it goes away, do we really think he will replace it with CCWS? I seriously doubt it, and then even if CCWS were to survive without the IRL as competetion, it would be right where it is now, a series without an identity.

[Sandfly]

same old story one more time ... zzzzzzzzzzzz

Give Tony enough rope to hang himself. If he does a good job he'll be good if he does a bad job then put the pressure on him.

He has done a terrible job thusfar and no one seems to want to hold him accountable - i doubt they will after he completes the destruction of the remaining good in AOWR. Remember - he owns the I-500 That makes hime the King of Kings

He has done absolutly nothing to warrant the pass he gets here.

He has diminished the I-500
His series is poorly attended - supported only by those who get their tickets as part of a NASCAR package or giveaway.

His series is recognized to be contrived racing with little resemblance to any former race series on ovals or road courses.


If CC could benifit from a "Merger", which I do not believe they need, the LAST group to offer any benifit would be the IRL.

Open wheel oval racing is history. The only open wheel race that anyone really cares about is the I500, and most of that is passing fan interest, left over family tradition, and some media hype. Even at that it is a shell of itself. A one weekend event a just another ( but big) racetrack.
Maybe the I-500 can survive as one race in a real open wheel series reminescent of the great road racing series of the past.

TG has done nothing to earn the support that many are willing to give him, on the mistaken idea that somehow that will magically make all things better.

[Cart750hp]

He has done a terrible job thusfar and no one seems to want to hold him accountable - i doubt they will after he completes the destruction of the remaining good in AOWR. Remember - he owns the I-500 That makes hime the King of Kings

He has done absolutly nothing to warrant the pass he gets here.

He has diminished the I-500
His series is poorly attended - supported only by those who get their tickets as part of a NASCAR package or giveaway.

His series is recognized to be contrived racing with little resemblance to any former race series on ovals or road courses.


If CC could benifit from a "Merger", which I do not believe they need, the LAST group to offer any benifit would be the IRL.

Open wheel oval racing is history. The only open wheel race that anyone really cares about is the I500, and most of that is passing fan interest, left over family tradition, and some media hype. Even at that it is a shell of itself. A one weekend event a just another ( but big) racetrack.
Maybe the I-500 can survive as one race in a real open wheel series reminescent of the great road racing series of the past.

TG has done nothing to earn the support that many are willing to give him, on the mistaken idea that somehow that will magically make all things better.

Let me ask you this, what makes you think that the current ownership of CC will be able shut TG and his IRL down although his IRL is also struggling? CC couldn't even find and won't be able to find a sponsor or a good promoter because of how CC management is. Ever wonder CC is barely surviving abroad and would like to expand out there rather than here? Because CC is easier to sell abroad than here. Now, talking about how you guys hate TG? Why don't you ask KK/GF why abandoning US and adding more international venues is on top of their list than anything else more important? You guys might want to step back a little farther than where you at and see what really is going on.

[Sandfly]

There is no need to shut down TG and his IRL. I just don't think they have shown any ability to build a fan base or creat a product that has broad appeal, or even appeal to those who know what the heck is going on. We are back to the -- well he has THE SPEEDWAY, and that is somehow going to make him capable of running the series - which he cannot and has been the issue since since he split off.

CC has set off one it's own with the focus on road/street racing in the fashion of Grand Prix racing and they are carrying that abroad in a manner that is competitive, fan friendly , and much more economical that F1 and it's spawn.

TG desperatly needs the CCWS teams and energy, much more than CC needs the Speedway ( which is all they get with TG and the IRL-- the cars are terrible, the races are dead and of course, TG has done nothing except continue to own the speedway and hire that disgusting guy with the bad hair and long tongue )

I am not blind to the problems that plaque open wheel, but CC combining efforts with the IRL is not a solution. Leave him with his own problems.

[FerrrariF1]

There is no need to shut down TG and his IRL. I just don't think they have shown any ability to build a fan base or creat a product that has broad appeal, or even appeal to those who know what the heck is going on. We are back to the -- well he has THE SPEEDWAY, and that is somehow going to make him capable of running the series - which he cannot and has been the issue since since he split off.

CC has set off one it's own with the focus on road/street racing in the fashion of Grand Prix racing and they are carrying that abroad in a manner that is competitive, fan friendly , and much more economical that F1 and it's spawn.

TG desperatly needs the CCWS teams and energy, much more than CC needs the Speedway ( which is all they get with TG and the IRL-- the cars are terrible, the races are dead and of course, TG has done nothing except continue to own the speedway and hire that disgusting guy with the bad hair and long tongue )

I am not blind to the problems that plaque open wheel, but CC combining efforts with the IRL is not a solution. Leave him with his own problems.

I don't think George needs Champcar's team or their energy what he is after is the Champcar fan base which he is jealous of. What Champcar fans will never forget is his comments during the bankrupcy trail in which he stated that "He knows what is good for CART fans and they don't know it. He will do everything in his power to take each and every one kicking and stcreaming is his has to" Instead of having fans make a choice again he is acting like a dictator and wants to force it upon the fans. That is a HUGE reason why it needs to be a merger of both sides, a new car and engine combo, a merger of both race schedules and a person at the helm that comes from neither side. It needs to be a person that both sides respect and one that the fans will have faith in. To me it doesn't matter if one side has 51% ownership and the other side 49%. It needs to be a fresh start and joint effort.It is the only way that openwheeled racing will survive. And even at this it will take a good 10 years for openwheeled racing to even get back on the radar screen. With that said Laguna, Road America and Cleveland need to be added to the five races that were mentioned. Let's face facts Homestead, Miulwaukee, Motregi and a few others needs to go from the IRL schedule. A strong 22-24 race schedule will need to be put together.BTW my referance to Hitker and Stalin were to the dicatorship tatics that George wants to employ but forcing it down the throats of the fans. The statements of telling the fans what they want were his and not mine. Those are public statements he made during the trail and I don;t know about you but no one is going to take me kicking and screaming and force what I want to follow and spend money one especially one Tony George.

[Dennis H.]

You are right.

That said, the problem is that judging by recent history, the chances that a series run by Tony George will be healthy or popular are not good at all.

I guess all I can say is that if there was to be a truly "new beginning", ow might gain back some fans on hope alone. As it is, with Mr. George in charge, that ain't going to happen...unless of course, things improve.

I am sure this has been asked before but what would make you think the three amigos would do a better job?

[nigelred5]

Motegi won't go anywhere as long as Honda is around and they need a partner to Surfers. There is no way they will have new cars immediately, no matter how they get back together, there just isn't enough money on either side. It's going to have to be with one series equipment or an equivalency formula, and we know TG won't agree to that. It will probably require two years minimum under existing IRL rules, then either an opening of the chassis formula or an altogether new chassis engine reg. I'd like to see simply adoption of the 2.65 turbo and lifting of the chassis freeze. Honda has their turbo to compete with the Cosworth, but it could go the NA direction since Cosworth does/did have a NA engine that would need to be adapted to ethanol.

[994ever]

I am sure this has been asked before but what would make you think the three amigos would do a better job?

Why don't you explain to me:

a) Where in my post I said that.
b) How it is in any way relevant to my post.

Then we'll talk.

[garyshell]

994ever,

I hope that the news coming in the next few weeks and months is enough to change your mind and bring you back. We need everyone to unite if AOWR is to recover it's former glories.

We need fans like you.


Do you honestly think that WE have any influence in this? We are bystanders and that's it.

Gary

[garyshell]

There is no need to shut down TG and his IRL. I just don't think they have shown any ability to build a fan base or creat a product that has broad appeal, or even appeal to those who know what the heck is going on. We are back to the -- well he has THE SPEEDWAY, and that is somehow going to make him capable of running the series - which he cannot and has been the issue since since he split off.

CC has set off one it's own with the focus on road/street racing in the fashion of Grand Prix racing and they are carrying that abroad in a manner that is competitive, fan friendly , and much more economical that F1 and it's spawn.

TG desperatly needs the CCWS teams and energy, much more than CC needs the Speedway ( which is all they get with TG and the IRL-- the cars are terrible, the races are dead and of course, TG has done nothing except continue to own the speedway and hire that disgusting guy with the bad hair and long tongue )

I am not blind to the problems that plaque open wheel, but CC combining efforts with the IRL is not a solution. Leave him with his own problems.

This buys into the myth that two series can survive. The past 13 years have proven that false. The Proctor and Gambles of the world (the REAL players in this game) have no interest in suporting any series that doesn't include the 500. And without that sort of sponsor participation, it is game over. Maidson Ave. is callng the shots, like it or not, and a fractured fan base has ZERO appeal to those suits. This goes hand in glove with what I said to FerrariF1 in another thread. We fans have ZERO direct influence in this. The only importance we play at all are as eyeballs for the Madison Ave. types and to the PROMOTERS of the races as ticket buyers. Both of these firmly place us at two degrees of separation from the series principles on either side.

Gary

[FlatChatRacer]

garyshell,

Yes. Fans like us can influence events in our sport. However, we would have to organise ourselves properly and have spokespersons who represented us and outlets that would air our issues and grievances.

In short, as a hundred or so Internet forum fans who discuss things like this, then no we don't much or any influence at all.

However, if we found a way to combine all the fans or AOWR and start a fan club with organisation, then yes we can be influential.

I have seen this happen here in England with Football(Soccer) fan clubs, Rugby etc.

I would hope that in the USA, the fan clubs of the Baseball and American Football teams are also influential and listened to?

Owners are forced to listen to fans, if they are organised and united into a common voice that gets heard in the wider public arena.

[Jonesi]

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080128/SPORTS0107/801280351/1052/SPORTS01
George scraps offer to help merge series

Of particular interest is this:
George said he told Kalkhoven and Forsythe in separate meetings that he would help teams acquire a new car and a used one as a backup for each full-season driver supported by a proper budget. He would not have bought the cars outright.
"I wasn't going to wholesale make that offer," George said. "I would make sure they had equipment; it would not necessarily be free."

[infoxicated]

It ends there, then.

At the end of the 2008 season there wont be any Champ Car teams wanting to buy an IRL chassis to get one years use out of it, so this would almost automatically guarantee there will be no coming together for 2009 either.

[heelntoe]

Post #123 in the "Tony George Makes an Offer for Unity"



And come on, if heelntoe says its for one year...



Its really sad that its up to me to bring little, only slightly important facts into this. Not only did Mi-Jack sponsor that fastest qualy lap trophy, they also sponsored the #99 car in last years 500 too!!!

Guess who does not show up on their list of sponsors on the NHL web page? Mi-Jack... you would think with Mike Lanigans influence that it would show up just as "Newman's Own" does. What does this tell us? That Jack Lanigan is running the show at Mi-Jack. That Mike Lanigan as he relates to NHL, is operating independantly to Mi-Jack.

Guess you probably have read the news by now...the offer was for one year and it was pulled.

[sanguin]

This buys into the myth that two series can survive. The past 13 years have proven that false. The Proctor and Gambles of the world (the REAL players in this game) have no interest in suporting any series that doesn't include the 500. And without that sort of sponsor participation, it is game over. Maidson Ave. is callng the shots, like it or not, and a fractured fan base has ZERO appeal to those suits. This goes hand in glove with what I said to FerrariF1 in another thread. We fans have ZERO direct influence in this. The only importance we play at all are as eyeballs for the Madison Ave. types and to the PROMOTERS of the races as ticket buyers. Both of these firmly place us at two degrees of separation from the series principles on either side.

Gary

There are a number of IRL teams that can't find sponsorship with Indy right now. Myth debunked.

[sanguin]

It ends there, then.

At the end of the 2008 season there wont be any Champ Car teams wanting to buy an IRL chassis to get one years use out of it, so this would almost automatically guarantee there will be no coming together for 2009 either.

Yes, and I would wait to see if there was really a new car for 2010. There is nothing that shows this is happening. Could be smoke and mirrors.

[PSfan]

Guess you probably have read the news by now...the offer was for one year and it was pulled.

I was simply pointing out that both you and sanguin where in agreeance to this simple point. I thought that RM's articles regarding the offer had enough clues to suggest it was time sensitive and was on the table only for 08, but it was easier to post your comment on the subject then to disect the RM's story...

However, after reading the indystar article today regarding Tony pulling the offer, I'm inclined to believe the only reason for not having the offer valid for 09 is because the even less value it having based on team having to replace their chassis for 2010. If Tony was smart, and this was indeed a legit offer, he should re-table it in May, and see where it goes from there.

[garyshell]

garyshell,

Yes. Fans like us can influence events in our sport. However, we would have to organise ourselves properly and have spokespersons who represented us and outlets that would air our issues and grievances.

In short, as a hundred or so Internet forum fans who discuss things like this, then no we don't much or any influence at all.

However, if we found a way to combine all the fans or AOWR and start a fan club with organisation, then yes we can be influential.

I have seen this happen here in England with Football(Soccer) fan clubs, Rugby etc.

I would hope that in the USA, the fan clubs of the Baseball and American Football teams are also influential and listened to?

Owners are forced to listen to fans, if they are organised and united into a common voice that gets heard in the wider public arena.

You are dreaming. Let me know how it goes with that.

Fans here are viewed ONLY as a revenue stream. The only VOICE they are ever given, in the US, is in voting for members of all star teams.

I don't think you would be able to find a single instance of fans banding together to influence a sport on a national level.

Gary

[garyshell]

There are a number of IRL teams that can't find sponsorship with Indy right now. Myth debunked.


Be very precise and tell me EXACTLY how that debunks the myth that TWO open wheel series can co-exist in the US. If anything it goes to prove MY assertion.

Gary

[sanguin]

Be very precise and tell me EXACTLY how that debunks the myth that TWO open wheel series can co-exist in the US. If anything it goes to prove MY assertion.

Gary

It debunks the myth about the 500.

[nanders]

Yes, and I would wait to see if there was really a new car for 2010. There is nothing that shows this is happening. Could be smoke and mirrors.

"Champ Car's machines are different from the IRL's and not able to be integrated. George said the two-year stipulation was made because the IRL will introduce new cars for the 2010 season."

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080128/SPORTS0107/801280351/1052/SPORTS01

[PSfan]

"Champ Car's machines are different from the IRL's and not able to be integrated. George said the two-year stipulation was made because the IRL will introduce new cars for the 2010 season."

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080128/SPORTS0107/801280351/1052/SPORTS01

From what I've read, 08 was suppose to be the year they where to bring out a new chassis... But most of the teams couldn't afford it...

Has Tony and the IRL invested in the development for a new chassis yet? And is there anything preventing them from putting it off again if they don't have enough teams that can afford the change for 2010?

[garyshell]

This buys into the myth that two series can survive. The past 13 years have proved that false. The Proctor and Gambles of the world (the REAL players in this game) have no interest in supporting any series that doesn't include the 500. And without that sort of sponsor participation, it is game over. Madison Ave. is calling the shots, like it or not, and a fractured fan base has ZERO appeal to those suits. This goes hand in glove with what I said to FerrariF1 in another thread. We fans have ZERO direct influence in this. The only importance we play at all are as eyeballs for the Madison Ave. types and to the PROMOTERS of the races as ticket buyers. Both of these firmly place us at two degrees of separation from the series principles on either side.

Gary


There are a number of IRL teams that can't find sponsorship with Indy right now. Myth debunked.


It debunks the myth about the 500.


Really, now? You don't think that the fact that there are some IRL teams struggling to find sponsors has anything to do with the fractured fan base I mentioned? Please note I never said that the 500 was ALL that was needed. I said what was needed was a unified fan base. You still have not debunked the myth that two open wheel series can co-exist in the US market.

Tell me, how many large consumer oriented sponsors has OWRS garnered in the past few years? (Do NOT suggest McDonald's as one, because you well know that was a mutually beneficial deal with Newman's Own products and not a traditional sponsorship deal at all.) So then name one.

Then look at the IRL. Right off the bat at a series level, I see Peak Anti-Freeze, XM Radio, K&N, Firestone. Then with the teams we have Jim Beam, Mobil Oil, Marlboro, Target, Seven Eleven, Kodak, Panasonic, Motorola, Canadian Club, Bosch, NYSE, Energizer. How many of those names would be there without the 500?

Gary

[sanguin]

Really, now? You don't think that the fact that there are some IRL teams struggling to find sponsors has anything to do with the fractured fan base I mentioned? Please note I never said that the 500 was ALL that was needed. I said what was needed was a unified fan base. You still have not debunked the myth that two open wheel series can co-exist in the US market.

Tell me, how many large consumer oriented sponsors has OWRS garnered in the past few years? (Do NOT suggest McDonald's as one, because you well know that was a mutually beneficial deal with Newman's Own products and not a traditional sponsorship deal at all.) So then name one.

Then look at the IRL. Right off the bat at a series level, I see Peak Anti-Freeze, XM Radio, K&N, Firestone. Then with the teams we have Jim Beam, Mobil Oil, Marlboro, Target, Seven Eleven, Kodak, Panasonic, Motorola, Canadian Club, Bosch, NYSE, Energizer. How many of those names would be there without the 500?

Gary

Peak replaced Mobil1, CC has an official oil too,no biggie. XM radio is partly owned by honda and is b2b, seven eleven is b2b with honda in food supply at honda plants in Japan. Panasonic,Motorola, associates of honda with their products,Delphi paid for by honda. Kodak and Energizer pay Target for store placement. Target actually doesn't pay, it has products pay sponsorship for store placement. Canadian Club, Jim Beam and NYSE are gone.

When/if Honda leaves, this is where the IRL gets hit the most.

[nanders]

Peak replaced Mobil1, CC has an official oil too,no biggie. XM radio is partly owned by honda and is b2b, seven eleven is b2b with honda in food supply at honda plants in Japan. Panasonic,Motorola, associates of honda with their products,Delphi paid for by honda. Kodak and Energizer pay Target for store placement. Target actually doesn't pay, it has products pay sponsorship for store placement. Canadian Club, Jim Beam and NYSE are gone.

links please ... all this new information that only you know.

[gofastandwynn]

There are a number of IRL teams that can't find sponsorship with Indy right now. Myth debunked.

You are right, there some ICS teams that can't find sponsorship.

On the other hand there are 5.........FIVE cc teams with major sponsorship at Sebring. That's 1 more than AGR has on the team. NHL with McDonalds, Rocketsports with Sangui (boy, thats a household name), Coyne with Sonnys BBQ, and Minardi with PDVSA backing from Hugo Chávez. And most of these are a stretch to call sponsors.

One thing I have also found is the truth is in the details. In fact NHL has so much cash they still are having Rahal's pit crew use Junky's helmets. Then you look at Coyne racing, who still has AMR on the side of their trailers. How long ago was AMR a sponsor? 2 years ago at the least?

Kid, you might want to try to ear down the IRL at this time still being somewhere between stage 1 and 2, but to try to imply things in the RIL are as bad as cc is a pure farce...