Siyonara Toyota? [Archive] - Motorsport Forums

trumperZ06

24th January 2008, 22:55

Sure, enter Le Mans...again...yet again something else you've never won!
Toyota;
Toyota; they inevitably fail in every form of motorsport they enter...

:dozey: Hhmm.... you really believe this ???

;) You shouldn't make such gross generalizations, without doing your...

"Homework" !!!

Hint.... try Google.

:D Toyota's been involved in racing, from Rally, to Sports Cars, to Indy Cars, to Formula One and NA$CAR, over the past 50 years. I'm sure they've had a win or two somewhere in one of those series... !!!

jens

24th January 2008, 22:56

With all their money it surprises me that they have never hired an A Grade driver....

How many drivers are there on the grid, to who Toyota hasn't made an offer? I think they are in minority. So it's not Toyota's fault that they haven't tried to hire an A-grade driver, but all of them have refused to join Toyota.

Malbec

25th January 2008, 01:18

:D Toyota's been involved in racing, from Rally, to Sports Cars, to Indy Cars, to Formula One and NA$CAR, over the past 50 years.

NASCAR and Indy excepted all those formulae were entered by Toyota Motorsport GMBH based in Cologne, Germany. Winning with a hybrid at Le Mans isn't going to be easy so who is going to do it for them? Toyota Motorsport GMBH are now known as Toyota F1, are they going to have two major campaigns on the go at one time or is someone else going to take over the Le Mans project?

Alternatively Toyota's idea could make eminent sense. With development in F1 severely restricted in the future Toyota and everyone else may find they have R/D and production capacity thats sitting around unused. Making that unused capacity work on a Le Mans car may be a good idea.

Osella

25th January 2008, 01:24

:dozey: Hhmm.... you really believe this ???

;) You shouldn't make such gross generalizations, without doing your...

"Homework" !!!

Hint.... try Google.

:D Toyota's been involved in racing, from Rally, to Sports Cars, to Indy Cars, to Formula One and NA$CAR, over the past 50 years. I'm sure they've had a win or two somewhere in one of those series... !!!

I will make generalizations about Toyota as long as every idiot writing for a mazagine or presenting a TV programme comes out with the crap about how they 'inevitably always succeed'. Unlike those people, I don't need to try google, I have followed racing for a long time..

They won IMSA - with the Eagle, after Jaguar, Nissan and Porsche had left..
The didn't win Le Mans in the Gp C. era - Relatively tiny companies like Porsche and even Mazda did! They had some wins in the Japanese GP.C series, but were outpaced by Porsche in the early days, and Mazda and Nissan in the later days.
The BTCC - some race wins; no title. Unlike Nissan, Volvo, Renault and BMW
They didn't win Le Mans in the GT1 era, again beaten by Porsche
They didn't win Le Mans with a warmed-over TS020 prototype, beaten by BMW.
They didn't win in the WRC era of world rallying, beaten by Mitsubishi and Subaru; those well-funded giants of the Japanese motor industry :rolleyes:
Japanese GT's have been Nissan's stomping ground, in the last decade Toyota have won it precisely once IIRC.. Nissan and Honda are the dominant forces.
They left CART with again precisely 0 titles.
The IRL? 1 title, while Honda have dominated ever since.
The Dakar Rally? 0 wins. While Mitsubishi dominate.
F1? Should have left it at Yamaha engines; they were pretty good by the end!

So the sooner this useless, overblown joke of a team hitches up it's trailer and heads off, the better.
When the best thing you have achieved is giving Cristiano Da Matta, Allan McNish and Timo Glock deserving F1 drives, you know your results are pathetic...

Funny how those who said 'watch out for Toyota, they always inevitably succeed in every form of motorsport they attempt' have been awfully quiet recently. Bleating about McLaren and injustice mostly... :rolleyes:

ShiftingGears

25th January 2008, 06:37

They didn't win in the WRC era of world rallying, beaten by Mitsubishi and Subaru; those well-funded giants of the Japanese motor industry :rolleyes:

Not at all.
Toyota won three manufacturers titles, which is equal to Subaru and more than Mitsubishi's one. And four drivers titles, equal to Mitsubishi and one more than Subaru.

Shoulda stuck with rallying IMO.

pino

25th January 2008, 07:12

... after all how much can you succeed with Ralf and Trulli! With all their money it surprises me that they have never hired an A Grade driver....

With that crappy car they have had in the last 3 years not even Michael Schumacher could've give them success :p :

Azumanga Davo

25th January 2008, 11:24

Didn't they also cheat in WRC? ;)

taffy

25th January 2008, 11:54

I thought that this was a thread about toyota in F1??

veeten

25th January 2008, 13:27

it should be...

The real question here is, will they decide to give the project over to their Toyota Racing Development (TRD) branch in the US, similar to what Honda has done with their Le Mans plans and HPD.

The crux of the matter is that alternative fuels, hybrids, and other such projects are developing in sportscar racing, American Le Mans Series specifically, since Audi went the Diesel route two years ago. KERS development and other technologies are now headed to what will be seen as the most advanced racing series on the planet. Don't be suprised if BMW decides to return to prototype racing in a similar way, using their Hyrdogen burning engines.

Meanwhile, Max & Bernie continue to dance around, looking for ways to not utilize these technologies, and unlike their attempts to subtilily undermine Group C, the rules remain safely out of their hands and in those of the ACO & Mr. Panos.

trumperZ06

25th January 2008, 17:32

[quote="Osella"]I will make generalizations about Toyota as long as every idiot writing for a mazagine or presenting a TV programme comes out with the crap about how they 'inevitably always succeed'. Unlike those people, I don't need to try google, I have followed racing for a long time..

:p : Hhmmm... and you STILL believe...

" Toyota: they inevitably fail in every form of motorsport they enter" ???

;) Guess there's no need to continue this discussion !!!

:D Now for those who are a bit more Realistic...

We may be seeing a new Golden Age for Sports Cars.

With all the new sportscar models scheduled to arrive in the next year or two:

Nissan's... GT-R with twin turbo V-6
Honda's... NSX with a new V-10
Toyota's.. F-1 super car also with a V-10(if Bernie allows the use of F-1)
Aston Martin's latest V-12
Corvette's C-6 now entering ALMS GT2
Audi's R-8 with a V-10
BMW's... M3 with V-8 power
Porsche and Ferrari are sure to be competitive

:) I'm guessing marketing will look to this series for advertising thereby leaving Formula One.
But it is currently... just a guess.

:s mokin: Trumper

Azumanga Davo

26th January 2008, 03:54

Certainly looks that way.

Malbec

26th January 2008, 12:00

The crux of the matter is that alternative fuels, hybrids, and other such projects are developing in sportscar racing, American Le Mans Series specifically, since Audi went the Diesel route two years ago. KERS development and other technologies are now headed to what will be seen as the most advanced racing series on the planet. Don't be suprised if BMW decides to return to prototype racing in a similar way, using their Hyrdogen burning engines.

Meanwhile, Max & Bernie continue to dance around, looking for ways to not utilize these technologies, and unlike their attempts to subtilily undermine Group C, the rules remain safely out of their hands and in those of the ACO & Mr. Panos.

For those who follow motorsport a little more than the simple man in the street Le Mans (and rallying) have emphasised different strengths to F1.

While F1 is a sprint Le Mans is about endurance and reliability, traits that the average customer prizes above all in their street cars. Couple that with an environmentally clean and technically advanced image with various hybrids and other green techs battling it out on the racetrack and Le Mans suddenly becomes a very attractive marketing proposition.

I agree F1 doesn't have a great 'green' image and loves to score own goals (quali laps where the sole point is to burn off more fuel anyone?), Le Mans is in a position to carve a big niche for itself as a premium racing formula for companies with green 'consciences'.

Also Toyota don't 'inevitably succeed', they inevitably leave any formula after it has fulfilled its marketing potential. Given their budget they've underachieved in just about any formula I can remember.

trumperZ06

26th January 2008, 14:18

For those who follow motorsport a little more than the simple man in the street Le Mans (and rallying) have emphasised different strengths to F1.

While F1 is a sprint Le Mans is about endurance and reliability, traits that the average customer prizes above all in their street cars. Couple that with an environmentally clean and technically advanced image with various hybrids and other green techs battling it out on the racetrack and Le Mans suddenly becomes a very attractive marketing proposition.

I agree F1 doesn't have a great 'green' image and loves to score own goals (quali laps where the sole point is to burn off more fuel anyone?), Le Mans is in a position to carve a big niche for itself as a premium racing formula for companies with green 'consciences'.

Also Toyota don't 'inevitably succeed', they inevitably leave any formula after it has fulfilled its marketing potential. Given their budget they've underachieved in just about any formula I can remember.

:D Hhmmm.... your last paragraph sums up the history of most automobile manufacturers... entering and then leaving Formula 1, the exception being Ferrari.

;) The Mfg'rs are there for brand identification and advertising... finishing outside of the top three (year after year) doesn't create the image Marketing is looking for.

I'm sure many of the "Suits" @ Honda and Toyota are wondering if the enormous amount of money spent on racing...

would be better spent in other series.

wedge

26th January 2008, 14:18

:D Now for those who are a bit more Realistic...

We may be seeing a new Golden Age for Sports Cars.

With all the new sportscar models scheduled to arrive in the next year or two:

Nissan's... GT-R with twin turbo V-6
Honda's... NSX with a new V-10
Toyota's.. F-1 super car also with a V-10(if Bernie allows the use of F-1)
Aston Martin's latest V-12
Corvette's C-6 now entering ALMS GT2
Audi's R-8 with a V-10
BMW's... M3 with V-8 power
Porsche and Ferrari are sure to be competitive

The Mazda Furai recently seen at Detroit is hot. Fingers crossed we'll see this on a the race track!

http://www.mobilemag.com/content/images/14304_super.jpg

Osella

26th January 2008, 19:16

I thought that when I saw it :up:
However, it already has been...the chassis and engine are the Courage-Madza seen in the ALMS a couple of years ago ;)

Azumanga Davo

27th January 2008, 04:38

What's the story of the ACO and rotaries these days?

Hotlavaaaa

27th January 2008, 11:06

What's the story of the ACO and rotaries these days?

Not sure, but Mazda abandoned their 3 rotor for a turbo 4 cylinder in P2 because the rotary wasn't making enough power. Doesn't Mazda have some sort of hydrogen rotary? I wonder if the ACO would allow that.

Azumanga Davo

27th January 2008, 17:46

Hmmm, they might, as long as they refrain from naming it 'Hindenburg Prototype'... ;)

"Oh, the humanity..."

MAX_THRUST

30th January 2008, 13:53

Did JPM win the CART title in a Honda engined car or a Toyota, my memory is fading, like Champ cars.......

I think Toyota do a better job of supplying Williams with an engine than building there own car. If they go- bye then.....Some one else will take over.

the bigger picture should be, here we go again, manufacturers come in to F1 then change their minds when the sucess does not come, leaving the series struggling. Hopefully this won't happen the way it has in the past

MAX_THRUST

30th January 2008, 13:57

JPM won in a HONDA sorry not a Toyota.

So your right what has Toyota won????? Most of the CART series races they just blew up, think they got it right in 2000 though.

30th January 2008, 15:14

JPM won in a HONDA sorry not a Toyota.

So your right what has Toyota won????? Most of the CART series races they just blew up, think they got it right in 2000 though.

Actually it was neither a Honda or Toyota. They were both engine suppliers in CART at the time. Montoya won at Indy in a G-Force chassis and an Oldsmobile-Aurora engine.

Toyota won the 2002 Cart championship with NHR/Da Matta, the IRL in 2003 with Ganassi/Dixon and the Indy 500 in 2003 with Penske/de Ferran

"In 2003, Toyota moved its open-wheel racing operation to the Indy Racing League (IRL) where Dixon won Toyota's inaugural IndyCar race at Homestead-Miami Speedway, as well as the series Driver's Championship that same year. The victory was one of 11 for Toyota as it captured the IRL's Manufacturer's Championship. Over three seasons, Toyota-powered entries won 17 IndyCar Series races and 22 IndyCar Series pole positions.

In addition to winning the Indy 500, Toyota-powered cars won 38 races and 44 pole positions in open-wheel competition from 1996 to 2005"

http://www.toyota.com/motorsports/history.html

Osella

30th January 2008, 18:37

Hmmm, and just how many of those were in CART, before they and Honda upped sticks to the IRL...? They won diddly-squat in CART really, so much for 'always winning...' I'd love to see those stats from 1996-2001, compared to the 2002-05 figures.

Toyota have taken on NASCAR in the right way, humble and slow. They are pretty much the truck of choice in the Craftsman series, but in F1 they are no good at all. NASCAR is a pretty stable bunch of series, with closely regulated engines and cars/trucks. The COT wasn't really an issue for them, and helps them out a lot as it makes all the bodies the same. This is not going to be the case in F1 and they truly are clueless in forms of motorsport where they have to make racing-speed decisions, not maketing-strategy-speed decisions. The best thing they could do would be to pay David Richards and Prodrive or someone similar to take over the project and give them free reign under the Toyota name

Renault didn't win the F1 title, Benetton did; Madza didn't win Le Mans, DAMS and Lola did, but Mazda still get the credit.
Audi won Le Mans with a huuuge amount of help from Joest Racing (particularly the quick-change rear end), Toyota really should have gone that route as they are just too utterly useless on their own.

woody2goody

30th January 2008, 18:52

It's a shame they haven't been able to produce a race-winning car so far, and it all looked so promising for them in 2005 as well. 88 points was nothing to sneeze at; I bet Ralf and Jarno were rubbing their hands together at the prospect of wins in 2006 but they were never competitive enough to deliver that.

The new car seems ok, but it's looking like just another mediocre effort that may yield a podium or two. However they could end up anywhere between 4th in the championship and 10th the way it looks in the midfield this year.

I too am impressed by the way they have tackled NASCAR. I was a new NASCAR fan in 2007 and Toyota certainly added something to the show. I hope Brian Vickers can win some races in 2008 for RBR and I think he is my outside bet for a top 12 position at the end of the season.

ioan

30th January 2008, 20:03

Renault didn't win the F1 title, Benetton did;

Why would you say that?

Madza didn't win Le Mans, DAMS and Lola did, but Mazda still get the credit.

As far as I know the engine was built by Mazda, the whole car was built together in Japan with the carbon fiber chassis produced in England. The 3 cars that took part in '91 were then prepared by Oreca in France. The gearbox however was a Porsche synchromesh (or something similar).

Also the Toyota GT One's were not bad at all, in fact they were fighting for the win in one year before a tire failure put an end to it (that's what I remember).

Osella

30th January 2008, 20:36

Why would you say that?).

Because Renault merely bought the Benetton team, pretty much all the personnel are the same, and a lot of them were there when they won two world titles with Schumacher in the 90's. So Renault did not start anything from scratch, they just bought a former champion team, and put enough money in to return them to the top...

Yes, you are correct re:Mazda in that it was ORECA, not DAMS...my mistake! ;)

Also the Toyota GT One's were not bad at all, in fact they were fighting for the win in one year before a tire failure put an end to it (that's what I remember).

In fact, they were looking better in 1998 when Boutsen was crashed out in the night by a GT2 Porsche. However they threw so much money at it and prepared only for Le Mans, their main rivals were all running full FIA GT series campaigns at the same time, yet Toyota still did not win. In 1999 the tyre failure only stopped the Toyota winning and allowed the 2nd BMW to win because the 1st BMW suffered a suspension failure when it was miles in the lead, so Toyota did not have the pace to win anyway!
They then gave up as Honda had decided to return to F1 as an engine supplier...

I have no problem with Toyota as a manufacturer, in fact I am very supportive of them in NASCAR, however this ridiculous hyperbole over them 'always winning' is ludicrous, as they don't! And in F1 they will not for as long as they continue to follow the same strategy they have done since day one of the F1 project.

tintop

30th January 2008, 21:11

They should suck it up and buy Williams before some Sheik with a rich daddy does. ;)

Malbec

30th January 2008, 22:58

This is not going to be the case in F1 and they truly are clueless in forms of motorsport where they have to make racing-speed decisions, not maketing-strategy-speed decisions.

As a child of parents with motorsport connections I've had dinner with people from several different companies with involvement in 2 and 4 wheeled motorsports and Toyota guys were a little different from the rest. Once the business talk was over the conversation inevitably moved over to motorsport with funny anecdotes etc etc garnered through a lifetime in the sport. The Toyota guys didn't seem to do that and shifted topics entirely to other stuff as if they don't seem comfortable talking about it.

Ultimately motorsport is about big boys with big toys, even if you're not a motorsport nut its difficult for a guy not to get enthused about stories of derring-do or even just tales from weird and wonderful places people have been to in the name of racing.

That is what I found plain strange and actually suspicious about Toyota people. The Toyota guys just didn't seem to find it that interesting even when its difficult not to be. No wonder they don't 'get' motorsports.

ioan

30th January 2008, 23:55

Because Renault merely bought the Benetton team, pretty much all the personnel are the same, and a lot of them were there when they won two world titles with Schumacher in the 90's. So Renault did not start anything from scratch, they just bought a former champion team, and put enough money in to return them to the top...

Don't know how many of the Benetton stuff were the same, in 2005 as in 1995, because the best of them:Rory Byrne, Ross Brawn and The Traitor left to Ferrari together with MS! ;)
Also it took Renault 4 seasons to field a car capable of winning a race!
So I would say that Renault did win 2 double championships, and man I'm no Renault fan.

In fact, they were looking better in 1998 when Boutsen was crashed out in the night by a GT2 Porsche. However they threw so much money at it and prepared only for Le Mans, their main rivals were all running full FIA GT series campaigns at the same time, yet Toyota still did not win. In 1999 the tyre failure only stopped the Toyota winning and allowed the 2nd BMW to win because the 1st BMW suffered a suspension failure when it was miles in the lead, so Toyota did not have the pace to win anyway!

Let's agree that at Le Mans a car needs above everything else to be reliable. And I would not consider a tire failure a car reliability problem, but surely a suspension failure is one!
Keep in mind that I'm at least 10xmore a BMW fan than a Toyota fan!
What impressed me with the Toyota GT One is that the car was fast and pretty reliable and also was intelligently designed. I remember that they were able to change the gearbox in 15 minutes in case they had a failure. That is a technical feature that amazed me back then and it still does 10 years later! ;)

Garry Walker

31st January 2008, 09:54

I think a lot depends on how the NASCAR program goes, if they can dominate NASCAR (and in testing they're looking good) we could see them out of F1 earlier than expected but if that fails also perhaps they'll hang around, after all how much can you succeed with Ralf and Trulli! With all their money it surprises me that they have never hired an A Grade driver....

Both Trulli and Ralf are very good drivers, not star level, but extremely good and competent.
The problem is Toyota has a management that is highly incompetent

MAX_THRUST

1st February 2008, 12:23

Thanks for the Toyota US open wheel history there. I used to know all this stuff off by heart, but to be honest my interest in the US scene is lacking these days.

I do think Toota would be better supplying RedBull or Williams with an engine. Let the races do the racing stuff, and let the engine builders do the engine stuff.

There's no limit on howmany teams they can supply is there???

Osella

1st February 2008, 12:26

What impressed me with the Toyota GT One is that the car was fast and pretty reliable and also was intelligently designed.

Yeah, but when the same guy designed an F1 car 2 years later it was over 4 seconds off the pace! Like I said, different level...

Malbec

2nd February 2008, 14:08

Yeah, but when the same guy designed an F1 car 2 years later it was over 4 seconds off the pace! Like I said, different level...

No, different emphasis.

The Koln based operation had always been involved in endurance based formulae like rallying or Le Mans. Switching to a sprint format involved a total change in thinking which the organisation as a whole struggled to make.

An engineer I know who was drafted in to the team during the expansion period in 2001-2 found that parts were routinely made to last far longer than they were required to and were often heavier as a result compared to rival teams.

Changing that mentality has been a difficult process but it has changed.