Missing luck soured '07 title charge - Massa

[CNR]

http://www.homeofsport.com/f1/news/item.aspx?id=21103


I would have been the 2007 world champion if my car had been more reliable," he said.

[samuratt]

http://www.homeofsport.com/f1/news/item.aspx?id=21103

He should have shown more consistency. Kimi also experienced reliability issues and still won.

[leopard]

I don't want to be overoptimism that he should have won the 2007 title, but his speed deserves he had better points or leading in points, if he had to ;)

[ioan]

He's pretty much right.
He only messed it up when he exited the pits on red in Canada.
In terms of sheer speed FM was, IMO, the fastest out there. He pulled out some stunning pole position times against the faster McLarens in the middle of the season.
And after the Italian GP he had to support Kimi giving up his position in Brazil and in Japan.

[Ranger]

Then again, Kimi had the same problems and emerged the winner.

Better luck this year, Felipe.

[ArrowsFA1]

Kimi suffered more retirements due to reliablity issues than Felipe. Ok, the Brazilian had gearbox woes in Australia which saw him at the back of the grid, and then there was the mess up with fuel in Hungary, but Kimi just did a better job, as many expected him to, over the course of the whole season. Felipe is certainly quick, and can win races when the conditions are right, but he is yet to show he can do that consistently enough (and win races when the conditions aren't quite right) to win a championship.

[ShiftingGears]

He should have shown more consistency. Kimi also experienced reliability issues and still won.

End of story, really.

[Osella]

Kimi suffered more retirements due to reliablity issues than Felipe. Ok, the Brazilian had gearbox woes in Australia which saw him at the back of the grid, and then there was the mess up with fuel in Hungary, .

And the suspension failure at Monza and the disqualification in Montreal... Did Kimi really have more mechanical retirements..? And the DQ in Montreal was ridiculous, when in previous seasons drivers have committed the same offence and been merely given a stop-go.

Also don't forget that Felipe gifted Kimi the title at Brazil! Without him, Kimi was not fast enough to win the title. End of story.

[Donney]

Team work, end of story.

[ShiftingGears]

Also don't forget that Felipe gifted Kimi the title at Brazil! Without him, Kimi was not fast enough to win the title. End of story.

That would be a valid point if Felipe was in a position to win the championship at Brazil. He wasn't.

[ArrowsFA1]

Did Kimi really have more mechanical retirements..?
Yes.

Kimi:
Spanish GP - retlred - electrical
European GP - retired - hydraulics

Felipe:
Italian GP - retired - suspension

[Osella]

And then there was the fuel issue in Hungary, the gearbox in Australia and Britain..
Plus the DQ from Canada. So that's quite a lot of points potentially lost really!

And he would not have been on no position to win the championship had it not been for those issues, especially when you consider that Kimi was one of the main beneficiaries of the Monza suspension failure!

[janneppi]

It's quite probable that Kimi suffered from the same suspension problem as Massa when he crashed in the free practise. That didn't seem like a normal failed breaking.

It's funny how Kimi is often called a car breaker when things go wrong but Massa is unlucky. ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

And then there was the fuel issue in Hungary, the gearbox in Australia and Britain..
Plus the DQ from Canada. So that's quite a lot of points potentially lost really!!
Of course, but much the same could be said of everyone on the grid. If only this, that or the other... :D

If Kimi hadn't clobbered the wall at the Monaco Swimming Pool Chicane he would surely have picked up more than a point. If he hadn't suffered an accident in practice at Monza would he have challenged the McLarens for the win?

Then again, if Hamilton hadn't found the gravel trap in China it would have been all over before Brazil anyway :s mokin:

[ShiftingGears]

And he would not have been on no position to win the championship had it not been for those issues, especially when you consider that Kimi was one of the main beneficiaries of the Monza suspension failure!

By the same token Kimi had a suspension failure in practice and it clearly hindered him throughout the weekend.

[ioan]

Then again, Kimi had the same problems and emerged the winner.

Could you please do a list with all their problems and the points lost?! Then we can talk seriously, not just throw in a post without any support whatsoever.

[ioan]

By the same token Kimi had a suspension failure in practice and it clearly hindered him throughout the weekend.

So from now on we should also consider pre-season mechanical failures? Or should we go all the way until childhood?

Of course, but much the same could be said of everyone on the grid. If only this, that or the other... :D

True.

If only Sakon Yamamoto was the re-incarnation of Juan-Manuel Fangio.

[Osella]

[quote="ArrowsFA1"]Of course, but much the same could be said of everyone on the grid. If only this, that or the other... :D
QUOTE]

Exactly! But it really pisses me off that there are so many people who go 'so and so won' end of... Without looking at what really happened in context.

In reality, Felipe was just as fast as Kimi over the year as a whole, althugh (excepting Turkey and Brazil, question mark over Monza ;) ) Kimi was faster in the second half of the season. So to say Kimi was better ''cos he won', is rubbish! Just like people put Panis' win down to attrition, and ignore the number of cars he overtook that day, and ignore the fact Prost really would and should have won the 1990 world title, Schumacher only was allowed to score in 12 races in 1994 etc..

The fact that both Ferrari drivers were in contention for the title until the end of the season, and had more mechanical problems and few driver errors indicates to me that they performed better than the mcLaren drivers IMO, and they were very balanced over the season as a whole. There were days where Massa was in his own league compared to the whole field, including Kimi.

So yes, Massa would have been in a much better position compared to the others without the bad luck he got this year, and perhaps the title fight would have come down to just the two Ferrari drivers at the end of the year if neither had been hampered by these issues.
Let's hope that's what it comes down to in 2008! :up:

[ioan]

Exactly! But it really pisses me off that there are so many people who go 'so and so won' end of... Without looking at what really happened in context.

In reality, Felipe was just as fast as Kimi over the year as a whole, althugh (excepting Turkey and Brazil, question mark over Monza ;) ) Kimi was faster in the second half of the season. So to say Kimi was better ''cos he won', is rubbish! Just like people put Panis' win down to attrition, and ignore the number of cars he overtook that day, and ignore the fact Prost really would and should have won the 1990 world title, Schumacher only was allowed to score in 12 races in 1994 etc..

The fact that both Ferrari drivers were in contention for the title until the end of the season, and had more mechanical problems and few driver errors indicates to me that they performed better than the mcLaren drivers IMO, and they were very balanced over the season as a whole. There were days where Massa was in his own league compared to the whole field, including Kimi.

So yes, Massa would have been in a much better position compared to the others without the bad luck he got this year, and perhaps the title fight would have come down to just the two Ferrari drivers at the end of the year if neither had been hampered by these issues.
Let's hope that's what it comes down to in 2008! :up:

Well put!

Even if we put mechanical retirements down to bad luck, I can think of 3 times this year when Massa made mistakes that cost him points.....Malaysia, Nurburgring & Canada (which could also have been the teams fault, but a red light is a red light and others saw it, so it's a driver-error in my book).

Unfortunately for Felipe, 2007 was a year when the championship was won by the driver who only made 1 mistake.

[janneppi]

So from now on we should also consider pre-season mechanical failures? Or should we go all the way until childhood?
Surely you can see the difference between running your primary race car with your body at 100% and running with your spare car being unable to hold your head up properly in braking due to and accident the very same weekend?

[wedge]

Malaysia - stuck behind Nick Heidfeld for most the race. I'm still stunned how he couldn't even pit pass the guy.

Silverstone - had a problem passing Kubica in the end. Should've done better?

Nurburgring - probably should've done better to hold off Alonso?

Fuji - average in the wet compared to other drivers.

Massa is a solid #2, up there with the likes of DC, Berger, Patrese.

I think there's too many question marks over Massa's race craft to say he deserves a WDC. Good at winning pole, leading races but can he pull something out of the bag?

[Tazio]

Of course, but much the same could be said of everyone on the grid. If only this, that or the other... :D
QUOTE]

Exactly! But it really pisses me off that there are so many people who go 'so and so won' end of... Without looking at what really happened in context.

In reality, Felipe was just as fast as Kimi over the year as a whole, althugh (excepting Turkey and Brazil, question mark over Monza ;) ) Kimi was faster in the second half of the season. So to say Kimi was better ''cos he won', is rubbish! Just like people put Panis' win down to attrition, and ignore the number of cars he overtook that day, and ignore the fact Prost really would and should have won the 1990 world title, Schumacher only was allowed to score in 12 races in 1994 etc..

The fact that both Ferrari drivers were in contention for the title until the end of the season, and had more mechanical problems and few driver errors indicates to me that they performed better than the mcLaren drivers IMO, and they were very balanced over the season as a whole. There were days where Massa was in his own league compared to the whole field, including Kimi.

So yes, Massa would have been in a much better position compared to the others without the bad luck he got this year, and perhaps the title fight would have come down to just the two Ferrari drivers at the end of the year if neither had been hampered by these issues.
Let's hope that's what it comes down to in 2008! :up:
I'm in with you!

[ioan]

Nurburgring - probably should've done better to hold off Alonso?

With a bad set of tires that were causing vibrations? And maybe he should have tried harder and collide with Alonso (we know that they did touch during that overtaking maneuver).



Silverstone - had a problem passing Kubica in the end. Should've done better?

Yeah, last to 5th, a horrible result he should have thrown away trying to pass RK who was very agressive. :s



Fuji - average in the wet compared to other drivers.

Running in front of Kimi until he had to make a mysterious 3rd pit stop? Than Kimi must be really a mediocre driver in the wet. :rolleyes:

He should have been calmer in Sepang and take a good look to the red light in Canada. He managed however not to destroy his car for a whole season (hint).

[wedge]

With a bad set of tires that were causing vibrations? And maybe he should have tried harder and collide with Alonso (we know that they did touch during that overtaking maneuver).

For all I know that could've been an excuse.

Schumi held up Hill in Spa 1995. Schumi was on slicks, Hill on wets!

[ioan]

For all I know that could've been an excuse.

Yes it could have been an excuse, but for all we know it might have been true also.
FM was suddenly losing a few seconds in half a lap. He might not be MS but he isn't that bad a driver in the wet.


Schumi held up Hill in Spa 1995. Schumi was on slicks, Hill on wets!

I wouldn't ever dare to consider Felipe as good as MS, and what MS did in the 90's was often unbelievable and a pleasure to watch!

[wedge]

I wouldn't ever dare to consider Felipe as good as MS, and what MS did in the 90's was often unbelievable and a pleasure to watch!

Although he didn't win that particular race, Alonso held up Schumi in Turkey 2006 when Schumi had the faster car. It's that kind of drive that wins you a championship

That's the level of performance Massa should aim for, which is why I can never seem him being WDC.

[Osella]

I saw a different race at the Nurburgring then!
Neither Ferrari was anywhere near as good in the wet as the McLarens, and Felipe help off Alonso for lap after lap, eventually Alonso had to bump wheel sin order to pass...so it's not exactly like he capitulated. Felipe is a tough racer, and to my mind, he excelled himself in holding off Alonso. Yes, Michael Schumacher probably would have won that race, but Alain Prost was no fan of the wet, or bumping wheels, and he won 4 titles. (and should have had five!)
Besides, when did you ever see Damon Hill win a race holding off a faster car?...

[N. Jones]

http://www.homeofsport.com/f1/news/item.aspx?id=21103

You could probably say the same thing for Hamilton & Alonso.

[samuratt]

You could probably say the same thing for Hamilton & Alonso.

You could probalby say that of every driver.

Luck is not a factor you should consider in a long term championship. You can have badluck one day and good luck another. It looks like Massa never had that lucky day.

For example he collided with Alonso twice, and both times he could have finished his race with a broken car (alonso too of course), in Barcelona he was able to win, and in Nurburing he finished second. I would say that those days both were lucky to finish because colliding with other cars usually puts you out of the race...

I hope i made myself clear :)

[Osella]

I would say that those days both were lucky to finish because colliding with other cars usually puts you out of the race...

I hope i made myself clear :)

10 World titles have been won this way if you add Ayrton Senna and Michael Schumacher's together...

[Big Ben]

yeah.. bad luck and the fact that he is the weakest driver of the first four.

[wmcot]

"Luck" will always play a big part in F1. How many times would Kimi have won the WDC or challenged for it if he had better "luck" at McLaren?

Memories sure seem to be short.

[SGWilko]

You know, if you look at Ferrari's drivers again this year, both kimi and philippe come across as very apolitical and genuinely nice guys.

They both had reliability issues last year, but ultimately, when it was required, philippe was the TEAM player.

Whilst I would very much like to see a Williams take the '09 title, I would me equally delighted if either of the Ferrari chaps took it.

All in all, lets hope the close racing is THE talking point this year.

Roll on March (not only for the season start, but off to see the Eagles at the O2).

[Cozzie]

I agree with Massa completely, he deserved the title and this year he will make up for it, do I think he is the complete driver like Kimi? No, but he will give him a run for his money in 2008. Massa doesn't really seem like WDC material but if things had have gone his way he would have been champion, however if Albers had have had things go his way he would have been WDC!

[jens]

Räikkönen has often been praised for having a clear advantage over Massa in the second half of the year. but some kind of advantage was visible only in Hungarian, Chinese and Belgium Grand Prix weekends.

But let's talk about the future. However, I tend to think that Räikkönen will win the team-mate battle in 2008 (and thus his second WDC). Probably not dominantly, but quite obviously.

[Finni]

Räikkönen has often been praised for having a clear advantage over Massa in the second half of the year. but some kind of advantage was visible only in Hungarian, Chinese and Belgium Grand Prix weekends.

That is quite minimalistic list in my view. For instance in Silverstone Kimi was lapping one second faster at one point where both were driving in clean air. Also in Turkey it seemed that Felipe held Kimi. Most of the time Kimi was able to cut Felipe's lead from 1.0 to 0.7 by doing faster lap than previous lap by Felipe - despite being in very dirty air (If I have understood there is slight effect to downforce even from 1.5 sec distance).

[leopard]

Seems it wasn't easy to measure the real capability of both drivers.
Massa usually has slightly quicker start, in many occasions Kimi drives behind him and get closer from a significant distance behind Massa. Slipstream might involve to work on Kimi.

The possible reasons a driver can catch up driver in front of him because he has constant acceleration to speed of driver in front, driver in front has constant deceleration to driver behind, or combination of both.

Massa might not a complete WDC material, but He usually (again) takes the pit first and Kimi takes the pit later from the lead. ;)

[samuratt]

10 World titles have been won this way if you add Ayrton Senna and Michael Schumacher's together...

Do you mean by luck??

I think Massa should consider himself lucky he was driving a Ferrari, had he been driving a Super Aguri he would'nt have come 4th in the championship...

(maybe is easier to look at it this way)

[ShiftingGears]

So from now on we should also consider pre-season mechanical failures? Or should we go all the way until childhood?

It's pretty obvious it affected him adversely in the race, don't be stupid.

[leopard]

yeah, at the end every driver has to think they are lucky being F1 driver.

Ferrari is happy with Massa being there and pleasantly secured his seat multiple years onward. I can't imagine if he was Alonso what would happen to Ferrari last year?. ;)

[ioan]

Do you mean by luck??

I think Massa should consider himself lucky he was driving a Ferrari, had he been driving a Super Aguri he would'nt have come 4th in the championship...

(maybe is easier to look at it this way)

I think everyone drives the car he deserves to drive, it has nothing to do with luck, only with hard work. :rolleyes:

[ioan]

It's pretty obvious it affected him adversely in the race, don't be stupid.

I think you don't see the difference between a mechanical failure that destroys your chances and a partial physical handicap that requires you to work harder!

[janneppi]

Really, how should have Kimi work harder after the crash?
If he can't keep his head up in breaking, he can't, nothing short of securing his head to the cockpit walls would have helped. :D

[Juppe]

I think you don't see the difference between a mechanical failure that destroys your chances and a partial physical handicap that requires you to work harder!

You crash 300 km/h and your neck is sore because of lack of training - you just live in your own little world, don't you? :D

[ioan]

You crash 300 km/h and your neck is sore because of lack of training - you just live in your own little world, don't you? :D

Who said anything about lack of training?! :rolleyes:
DO try to understand a post before replying to it.

[ioan]

Really, how should have Kimi work harder after the crash?
If he can't keep his head up in breaking, he can't, nothing short of securing his head to the cockpit walls would have helped. :D

He's a great driver, but man, his supporters are nil.

[janneppi]

He's a great driver, but man, his supporters are nil.
No, seriously, what should have Kimi done to "work harder" ?

Furthermore, could you elaborate on that comment of yours, it's a bit too obscure for me.

[Juppe]

Who said anything about lack of training?! :rolleyes:
DO try to understand a post before replying to it.

You make it very hard, care to elaborate your meaning then?

I assumed you meant his neck injury was a result of not being physically fit enough, so obviously you did not mean that?

Have you ever had a sore neck from an accident? I have and I really cannot comprehend how you can overcome that by "working harder"?

BTW, thanks for calling me nil, makes me appreciate your precious opinions even more...

[F1boat]

Sour grapes.
Kimi deserved the championship. He is just stronger, mentally and as a racer.

[ioan]

You make it very hard, care to elaborate your meaning then?

I assumed you meant his neck injury was a result of not being physically fit enough, so obviously you did not mean that?

Have you ever had a sore neck from an accident? I have and I really cannot comprehend how you can overcome that by "working harder"?

BTW, thanks for calling me nil, makes me appreciate your precious opinions even more...

Given that he had his neck injured he had to work harder during the race in order to drive.
Was that complicated? Don't think so, but you chose however to see it like if I was attacking Kimi's physical fitness.

As I said he's a great driver but you, his supporters, are very very bad ones, and you don't hesitate to attack other forum members even though it's a problem with you understanding of what the other says. :rolleyes:

Massa's comments are perhaps more understandable in the context that he sees 07 as a year when the luck he needed to win the title wasn't there.

But, in terms of unrealistic statements about 2007, he isn't even trying.

Ladies & Gentlemen, I give you Mr Giancarlo Fisichella -

"At the start of last year, I was confident we would be able to fight for the championship - but the car just wasn't as quick as it was in 2005 and 2006"

Giancarlo, you didn't win the championship in 05 & 06 anyway!

[janneppi]

Given that he had his neck injured he had to work harder during the race in order to drive.
Was that complicated? Don't think so, but you chose however to see it like if I was attacking Kimi's physical fitness.

Perhaps you should have said that in the first place as your previous comment left plenty of room to make the assumption you were saying Kimi wasn't that much hindered in the race.
Especially your post #17 with it's comment about preseason mechanicals and childhood pushed me to that direction .

As we we talking about luck, if Kimi's accident was caused by suspension failure, surely you would also put that one under the same bad luck as Massa's troubles?

Personally, I view Massa's comments as a reluctance to accept being beaten by his team mate, same luck was brought into play in France(?) where Massa started on pole but was pit passed by Kimi in last stage of the race.
If I remeber correctly Massa said Kimi was lucky he got past Lewis in the start and didn't run into trouble with backmarkers as much as Massa.

That seems to be how he deals with defeat and it's a quite normal reaction among racing many drivers. They have lot of self confidence and do what ever it takes to prevent anything to make a crack into that armour.

[jso1985]

so basically according to Massa, Kimi is a lucky champ...

well as I posted like a year ago, using certain logic, all champions can be consided that they won only cause of their luck

[ShiftingGears]

Given that he had his neck injured he had to work harder during the race in order to drive.
Was that complicated? Don't think so, but you chose however to see it like if I was attacking Kimi's physical fitness.

If you put it that way, it's exactly like Massa in Australia and Silverstone, he just had to work a little harder to get a better result, no?

[tintop]

The irony.

:laugh: Just saw that.

I'll say one one thing for Massa, he's certainly not going to roll over, it's the most interesting inner-Ferrari match-up in a while.

[Osella]

Personally, I view Massa's comments as a reluctance to accept being beaten by his team mate...That seems to be how he deals with defeat and it's a quite normal reaction among racing many drivers...

Aah, the sign of a truly great driver, according to many ;)

[Osella]

Do you mean by luck??


No, I meant by being willing to let your car make gentle contact with another in order to keep the following driver behind.. ;)
You said he was lucky to have got away with it, I say you just have to know what you're doing... :p

[janneppi]

Aah, the sign of a truly great driver, according to many ;)
Mind you, you don't need to be a WDC to hit the wall of Champions at Montreal. ;)

That kind of attitude probably works well to keep one's self confidence up. There is a drawback to it, if a driver is incabable of being self-critical and puts everything down to bad luck, he/she is most likely going to repeat those errors.

[Juppe]

Given that he had his neck injured he had to work harder during the race in order to drive.
Was that complicated? Don't think so, but you chose however to see it like if I was attacking Kimi's physical fitness.

As I said he's a great driver but you, his supporters, are very very bad ones, and you don't hesitate to attack other forum members even though it's a problem with you understanding of what the other says. :rolleyes:

I did not choose to see your comments in any way and I was not the only one having problems in understanding your meaning - heck, I still don't. But that must be down to naturally lesser mental capacity of Kimi fans.

There were people close to Kimi who considered that Monza drive was the best of his career and was a sign of his true character. They considered that it was nothing sort of a miracle that he finished the race with the neck he had. Think of it, driving around in Monza without being able to hold your head up!

So I think he was working as hard as he could and maybe a little bit harder than was wise in his condition.

[janneppi]

As for personal comments, leave them out of the discussion

[ioan]

I did not choose to see your comments in any way and I was not the only one having problems in understanding your meaning - heck, I still don't. But that must be down to naturally lesser mental capacity of Kimi fans.

There were people close to Kimi who considered that Monza drive was the best of his career and was a sign of his true character. They considered that it was nothing sort of a miracle that he finished the race with the neck he had. Think of it, driving around in Monza without being able to hold your head up!

So I think he was working as hard as he could and maybe a little bit harder than was wise in his condition.

:rolleyes:

[Juppe]

:rolleyes:

:s tareup:

[ioan]

:s tareup:

:rolleyes:

[Osella]

There is a drawback to it, if a driver is incapable of being self-critical and puts everything down to bad luck, he/she is most likely going to repeat those errors.

I think if you look at Malaysia this year, Massa's comments after that race, and his performance in Bahrain, it is very clear that Felipe Massa is entirely capable of being self-critical and does learn from his mistakes, but does not dwell on them. :up:

[Big Ben]

his supporters are nil.

How did you came up with that conclusion?

[markabilly]

As for personal comments, leave them out of the discussion


What? and destroy the fun??????

[jens]

That is quite minimalistic list in my view. For instance in Silverstone Kimi was lapping one second faster at one point where both were driving in clean air. Also in Turkey it seemed that Felipe held Kimi. Most of the time Kimi was able to cut Felipe's lead from 1.0 to 0.7 by doing faster lap than previous lap by Felipe - despite being in very dirty air (If I have understood there is slight effect to downforce even from 1.5 sec distance).

The "problem" with the Turkish Grand Prix is that the end result consists of both qualifying and race performances, not just the race, hence the finish result!
Haven't checked the laptimes of the British Grand Prix. Massa's first and second stints were longer than Kimi's. At which point did that clearly faster lapping occur?

[ioan]

How did you came up with that conclusion?

Wasn't that difficult! :D

[N. Jones]

So... what have we learned here?

That Massa's excuse of luck justified as he had some problems to cause him to fall behind the others. Whether he has consistency problems or not should be answered this year (unless more mechanical gremlins show up).
I will agree that toward the end of teh season he had to play second fiddle to Kimi but there is no denying that after Ferrari's poor showing in North America (meaning not as many points scored as normal) they really turned a corner and became a contender.
As for McLaren - well, they should have won both titles if not for infighting and sheer idiocy!

[N. Jones]

One other thing - I think there are a LOT of Kimi supporters. I would have figured ioan would be one just on the fact that he drives a red car...

[janneppi]

N. Jones, supporting Kimi and Ferrari isn't as simple as one might think, there are few different groups I categorize people here.
1. basic Ferrari supporters who don't care which car wins
2. Ferrari supporters who would prefer Massa to win rather Kimi, they tend to be supporters of M Shumacher and perhaps see Kimi as the reason MS doesn't drive anymore or are having an allergic reaction to comments from some Kimi fans who said Kimi would destroy MS and Massa very easily.
They are most likely somewhat happy that Kimi won the WDC, but would have been more pleased if Massa had won it.
3. Ferrari supporters who prefers Kimi winning over Massa, they are either people who support Ferrari and simply prefer Kimi over Massa or people whose dislike of MS prevented them from supporting Ferrari and who have now come back.
4. Kimi supporters who aren't really interestered how well Ferrari does. They are most often Finns, McLaren supporters who have a soft spot for him from his years there, or simply people who see him as someone to support.
To them Massa is the enemy unless he can help out with the WDC.
5. Then you might have people who are supporters of Massa, altough not many have been around here. (correct me if I'm wrong here ;) )

As you might guess, group 2 and 4 don't get along that well. :p :
ioan would IMO fit into group 2 and me into group 4

;)

[BDunnell]

N. Jones, supporting Kimi and Ferrari isn't as simple as one might think, there are few different groups I categorize people here.
1. basic Ferrari supporters who don't care which car wins
2. Ferrari supporters who would prefer Massa to win rather Kimi, they tend to be supporters of M Shumacher and perhaps see Kimi as the reason MS doesn't drive anymore or are having an allergic reaction to comments from some Kimi fans who said Kimi would destroy MS and Massa very easily.
They are most likely somewhat happy that Kimi won the WDC, but would have been more pleased if Massa had won it.
3. Ferrari supporters who prefers Kimi winning over Massa, they are either people who support Ferrari and simply prefer Kimi over Massa or people whose dislike of MS prevented them from supporting Ferrari and who have now come back.
4. Kimi supporters who aren't really interestered how well Ferrari does. They are most often Finns, McLaren supporters who have a soft spot for him from His years there, or simply people sho see him as someone to support.
To them Massa is the enemy unless he can help out with the WDC.
5. Then you might have people who are supporters of Massa, altough not many have been around here. (correct me if I'm wrong here ;) )

As you might guess, group 2 and 4 don't get along that well. :p :
ioan would IMO fit into group 2 and me into group 4

;)

You have left out the sixth group — those people who are just interested in the sport and don't care who wins so long as the competition is good. There seem to be even fewer of those here than out-and-out Massa supporters these days.

[janneppi]

Yeah, but they don't really matter in this case as they have no vested interest in any of the parties involved. :p :

[BDunnell]

Ah, I see. How naive of me. ;)

[N. Jones]

Wow - a complex group of people!
You could put me in group four as well as I am happy to see Kimi finally win the WDC.

[tintop]

You have left out the sixth group — those people who are just interested in the sport and don't care who wins so long as the competition is good. There seem to be even fewer of those here than out-and-out Massa supporters these days.

:up: Right on brother, of course if one has an intellectual disagreement of fact, it seems that one is often assumed to be categories 1-5. As I said earlier, Ferrari was a 2 man contest for a large part of the year which was exciting for once. In the end, they reverted to the one man team form, but you can't blame them for that, it's helped them win more WDC's over the past decade than anyone else.

[BDunnell]

:up: Right on brother, of course if one has an intellectual disagreement of fact, it seems that one is often assumed to be categories 1-5. As I said earlier, Ferrari was a 2 man contest for a large part of the year which was exciting for once. In the end, they reverted to the one man team form, but you can't blame them for that, it's helped them win more WDC's over the past decade than anyone else.

And, at some point in most seasons, it makes sense to favour one driver over another when a championship is at stake. I say that even though I have an intense dislike of team orders at their most 'stark', as imposed at the 2002 Austrian GP or the 1995 Catalunya Rally. After all, it's not as if it's anything new in motorsport.

[mstillhere]

N. Jones, supporting Kimi and Ferrari isn't as simple as one might think, there are few different groups I categorize people here.
1. basic Ferrari supporters who don't care which car wins
2. Ferrari supporters who would prefer Massa to win rather Kimi, they tend to be supporters of M Shumacher and perhaps see Kimi as the reason MS doesn't drive anymore or are having an allergic reaction to comments from some Kimi fans who said Kimi would destroy MS and Massa very easily.
They are most likely somewhat happy that Kimi won the WDC, but would have been more pleased if Massa had won it.
3. Ferrari supporters who prefers Kimi winning over Massa, they are either people who support Ferrari and simply prefer Kimi over Massa or people whose dislike of MS prevented them from supporting Ferrari and who have now come back.
4. Kimi supporters who aren't really interestered how well Ferrari does. They are most often Finns, McLaren supporters who have a soft spot for him from His years there, or simply people sho see him as someone to support.
To them Massa is the enemy unless he can help out with the WDC.
5. Then you might have people who are supporters of Massa, altough not many have been around here. (correct me if I'm wrong here ;) )

As you might guess, group 2 and 4 don't get along that well. :p :
ioan would IMO fit into group 2 and me into group 4

;)

Now that MS is gone, I am definetly in number 1. Nobody can replace MS!!!

[markabilly]

back to the original topic somewhat, every year, luck has played a major role in winning a race and a wdc

Some people make their own luck and some just get lucky.

if FA had been more "lucky" he would have won, if LH had been more lucky or Massa, one of them would have won.

Sometimes I think "deserving has got nothing to do with it". Some just have it and some do not.

However, if I had been more lucky, i would be richer than most and never worked a day in my life. And truth is, I deserve it..............

[leopard]

Someone's performance was mainly determined by his own effort to optimize his ability, while luckiness or destiny whether they are good or bad was more related to sort of power above or something beyond someone's control.

Massa might have good effort and work hard to produce the best of him, something beyond his control was a fact that he can't make it sure the team want them win trough his hand, that's his destiny ;)

[ioan]

N. Jones, supporting Kimi and Ferrari isn't as simple as one might think, there are few different groups I categorize people here.
1. basic Ferrari supporters who don't care which car wins
2. Ferrari supporters who would prefer Massa to win rather Kimi, they tend to be supporters of M Shumacher and perhaps see Kimi as the reason MS doesn't drive anymore or are having an allergic reaction to comments from some Kimi fans who said Kimi would destroy MS and Massa very easily.
They are most likely somewhat happy that Kimi won the WDC, but would have been more pleased if Massa had won it.
3. Ferrari supporters who prefers Kimi winning over Massa, they are either people who support Ferrari and simply prefer Kimi over Massa or people whose dislike of MS prevented them from supporting Ferrari and who have now come back.
4. Kimi supporters who aren't really interestered how well Ferrari does. They are most often Finns, McLaren supporters who have a soft spot for him from his years there, or simply people who see him as someone to support.
To them Massa is the enemy unless he can help out with the WDC.
5. Then you might have people who are supporters of Massa, altough not many have been around here. (correct me if I'm wrong here ;) )

As you might guess, group 2 and 4 don't get along that well. :p :
ioan would IMO fit into group 2 and me into group 4

;)

Put me into the group of those who support Ferrari no matter the driver, but in the same time don't get along with the hypocrites that don't care about Ferrari, support Kimi and are McLaren fans, aka Finns. :p :

[Juppe]

Put me into the group of those who support Ferrari no matter the driver, but in the same time don't get along with the hypocrites that don't care about Ferrari, support Kimi and are McLaren fans, aka Finns. :p :

Finn's have a long tradition for supporting McLaren, but that is because there is a long history of Finnish drivers in McLaren that will continue next season. Other than that I don't think the Finns are die hard McLaren fans - I think we support our drivers no matter what team they drive for.

But there is nothing like good old generalization to keep things black and white...

[janneppi]

Put me into the group of those who support Ferrari no matter the driver, but in the same time don't get along with the hypocrites that don't care about Ferrari, support Kimi and are McLaren fans, aka Finns. :p :
Phew, for a moment I though you had a problem with me, but then you mentioned being a McLaren fan as one criteria and realized it didn't apply to me. ;)


Finn's have a long tradition for supporting McLaren, but that is because there is a long history of Finnish drivers in McLaren that will continue next season. Other than that I don't think the Finns are die hard McLaren fans - I think we support our drivers no matter what team they drive for.
indeed, if it would be a arduous task to be a fan of every team a Finn has driven while I have followed the sport and just think of the expence of buying a team clothes for McLaren, Ferrari, Benetton, Renault, Lotus, Dallara, Williams, Onyx, Sauber, tyrell, Arrows, Toyota and BAR. :D

[Osella]

But there is nothing like good old generalization to keep things black and white...

Hehe, good to see the old saracsm is still alive and well too ;)

I'm in group 2 and 5. Ardent Massa supporter, and I can never wholly support Kimi above anyone alse as he used to be a McLaren driver.. however there is a certain amount of satisfaction from Ferrari giving him a championship when McLaren couldn't :p And I would always like to see Ferrari win the championship above anyone else but Minardi...but that never happened ;)

And yes, I am a Schumacher fan, but always loved Ferrari too, so 1996 was quite a good combination ;)

[SGWilko]

I 'follow' Ferrari because there is a little 'mystique' that surrounds the team - or there was, when the Old Man was still around.

After his death, they really lost their way for a long time.

Frankly, at the moment I don't give a gnats chuff who wins, so long as it is won fair and square (none of that insulting 'you fans are morons', so we don't care that we will use team orders so obviously and so early in the season').

While Massa has come across as bit of a whinger with King Edward upon his shoulder of late, both he and Kimi are head down and get on with it drivers. No political BS with them.

And anyone who pipes with the line 'I was taking a 5h!t' when you know who was receiving his prize gets my vote. :D

As for my true support, that goes to Frank and Patrick....... :up:

[Dzeidzei]

Put me into the group of those who support Ferrari no matter the driver, but in the same time don't get along with the hypocrites that don't care about Ferrari, support Kimi and are McLaren fans, aka Finns. :p :

Well, youre certainly way off there. In case you havent noticed, there are no Finnish teams in F1. However theres been a few drivers, some even successful ones, and its safe to say that Finns cheer for their drivers.

I always thought McL was okay when Mika was driving for them. During the Kimi era their difficulties robbed him at least one wdc, so McL lost a lot of its pride. And last year they were just full of crap and I still think RD owns all the people in F1 (including fans) a big apology.

Ferrari has always THE team in F1. No one can deny that. And having a Finn being at Ferrari and wdc is more or less a dream come true. For most Finns.

But you being from Romania(?).... what is your excuse? I dont know any Romanian drivers, teams, engineers, marshalls ever been involved with the sport. Hell, I didnt even know they showed F1 in tv there.

Why this absolute love for MS and Ferrari? And why do you hate Kimi so much? All that is beyond me, but I think Jappeppi´s analysis is pretty much spot on.

[samuratt]

No, I meant by being willing to let your car make gentle contact with another in order to keep the following driver behind.. ;)
You said he was lucky to have got away with it, I say you just have to know what you're doing... :p


That reminds me of Michael at Monaco 2006. He knew what he was doing, though he couldn't got away with it ;) :)

[Dzeidzei]

Put me into the group of those who support Ferrari no matter the driver, but in the same time don't get along with the hypocrites that don't care about Ferrari, support Kimi and are McLaren fans, aka Finns. :p :

Even if this is with a smiley and coming from a Ferrari supporter, and it sounds too much bs to even dignify an answer, but some stupidities need to be corrected.

As some of you might have noticed, there are no Finnish F1 teams. However, there are and have been some drivers, some even quite successful. Thats why Finns in general cheer for their drivers.

I liked McL when Mika was driving there. I think some of the duels between MIka and Michael were simply classic and I wish we´d see more of that kind of racing. During the Kimi era McL started to get more mediocre and they without any doubt cost Kimi a wdc or 2.

Last year McL (mainly due to RD) made a mockery of the sport and represents everything there is to hate about the politics in F1. And to all McL fans: the cheating has been prooved and its time to move on.

Still, Ferrari is THE team in F1. Having a Finnish champion at Ferrari driving the number one car is a dream come true for most Finnish F1 fans.

What I do find very hard to understand is how some Ferrari fans do hate Kimi. The only explanation is that Janneppi´s analysis is spot on: its the MS fans who still think Michael left because of Kimi. And if Felipe won, it would be at least some consolation.

And another thing that puzzles me: if you come from a country with no drivers, teams, gran prix´s, marshals or even tv coverage (like Romania or Turkmenistan) why would you be fanatic about anything in F1?

[ArrowsFA1]

Regarding Massa and missing luck...as someone once said "The harder you work, the luckier you get." :s mokin:

[ioan]

Even if this is with a smiley and coming from a Ferrari supporter, and it sounds too much bs to even dignify an answer, but some stupidities need to be corrected.



And another thing that puzzles me: if you come from a country with no drivers, teams, gran prix´s, marshals or even tv coverage (like Romania or Turkmenistan) why would you be fanatic about anything in F1?

I would restrain from generalizing about an entire nation based on your completely idiotic post.


As some of you might have noticed, there are no Finnish F1 teams. However, there are and have been some drivers, some even quite successful. Thats why Finns in general cheer for their drivers.

And who said that there is a problem with that? :?:



What I do find very hard to understand is how some Ferrari fans do hate Kimi.

Never said I hate Kimi. I didn't even say he's a bad driver or something like that.
And if I criticized him for his bad driving in the first half of the season I didn't say anything about hate.


The only explanation is that Janneppi´s analysis is spot on: its the MS fans who still think Michael left because of Kimi.

That's completely rubbish and it only shows that your reasoning has no depth whatsoever. You're unfairly accusing me of hating Kimi and than you post some rubbish about MS.

What does MS have to do with this topic at all?

You think that MS had to leave the team because of Kimi's arrival? You must be kidding. Michael could have stayed at the expenses of Felipe, there is no doubt about that.
And before you imply that MS left because he was affraid of Kimi (and many of you Finnish fans supported this utopia) just try to imagine who would have come out on top this season between MS and Kimi?! MS by quite a margin judging by how Kimi and Felipe compared in 2007. So you should be thankful that MS decided to leave instead of staying one more season.

I won't deny that I was and am still sad that MS left (because as seen in the December testing he is still very very fast even after a year off), but I never would even believe that he had to leave to make place for Kimi.


And if Felipe won, it would be at least some consolation.


For what?!
Did you ever hear about supporting the underdog???

I already posted it once that I do actually like Kimi, but I do however dislike the stupidity of his fanatics. Take it as you wish, but after you ignorant and idiotic remarks about Romania, I only feel even stronger that this is the case.

[Osella]

What I do find very hard to understand is how some Ferrari fans do hate Kimi. The only explanation is that Janneppi´s analysis is spot on: its the MS fans who still think Michael left because of Kimi. And if Felipe won, it would be at least some consolation.


While I don't think Michael left because of Kimi, the fact remains that Kimi was a McLaren driver in the Ron Dennis era and so that is not going to endear him to fans of other teams so much, especially those who are Ferrari fans. (many of whom it must be said are fans of Ferrari above the sport as a whole, sorry to all my fellow Ferrari fans, but that's the way it is!) For the same reason, I can no longer support Fernando Alonso the moment he chose to leave Benetton/Renault for McLaren - even if he is an ex-Minardi driver ;)

I support Massa because of who he is and the way he drives. I think he is a wonderful character and good to see in F1, drives in an entertaining way, fight wheel-to-wheel with no hesitation, and is mainly calm and analytical out of the car, but not too monosyllabic :p Supported Massa in Euro F3000,Sauber, and Ferrari, but would always always like to see any team win above McLaren, no matter if he is an ex-grey man ;)

[ioan]

Regarding Massa and missing luck...as someone once said "The harder you work, the luckier you get." :s mokin:

Seconded! :up:
And being a Ferrari and MS fan I witnessed that first hand for many seasons! :)

[janneppi]

What I do find very hard to understand is how some Ferrari fans do hate Kimi. The only explanation is that Janneppi´s analysis is spot on: its the MS fans who still think Michael left because of Kimi. And if Felipe won, it would be at least some consolation.

I didn't say that they hate Kimi, but I did say Kimi's fans probably were part of a reason reason for the way Massa is liked more than Kimi. I also worded perhaps see Kimi as the reason MS doesn't drive anymore somewhat badly, I didn't mean Kimi drove MS out. There was talk of a power struggle inside Ferrari with Kimi and MS in the middle. with comments like these about Montezemolo:

What do you expect him to say?
After all he wanted MS out to bring KR in, he won't say he was wrong, is it?
I don't think it was totally unjustified for me to suggest it.


It's not exactly the most sensible thing to have a dislike for a driver because of their fan base, but we are talking about people, people aren't sensible.


And another thing that puzzles me: if you come from a country with no drivers, teams, gran prix´s, marshals or even tv coverage (like Romania or Turkmenistan) why would you be fanatic about anything in F1?
People do what they do, F1 has followers from many parts of the world wheter they have F1 links or not, For us Finns, it's been pretty easy, but It's not your place to question what other people should feel.

[jens]

Unnecessary quarrels, schisms, misunderstandings between F1 fans derive from the fact that support, sympathies and personal preferences are too strongly emphasized in posts, hindering concentration on important aspects.

Regarding Massa and missing luck...as someone once said "The harder you work, the luckier you get." :s mokin:

It was Gary Player and the actual quote is "The more I practice, the luckier I get"

http://www.quotiki.com/quote.aspx?id=10289

I think it was in response to a question about him being perceived as "lucky"

[ioan]

People do what they do, F1 has followers from many parts of the world wheter they have F1 links or not, For us Finns, it's been pretty easy, but It's not your place to question what other people should feel.

Exactly. And I would add, for Dzeidzei's information, that there are good racing and rally drivers in Romania and Turkmenistan too, as well as there are racing teams.
The fact that these don't make it to international racing very often has more to do with financial possibilities than with nationality. And is no reason whatsoever to belittle those countries and their inhabitants.

[Dzeidzei]

People do what they do, F1 has followers from many parts of the world wheter they have F1 links or not, For us Finns, it's been pretty easy, but It's not your place to question what other people should feel.

Just to make clear: Im not questioning or judging, only wondering. I stand for everyone´s right to have whatever opinions or feelings they want. No matter how stupid these opinions might be.

I wont start any stupid debate with ioan. Instead I grant him every right to think he´s right.

However, he says that

"I would restrain from generalizing about an entire nation based on your completely idiotic post."

and "Put me into the group of those who support Ferrari no matter the driver, but in the same time don't get along with the hypocrites that don't care about Ferrari, support Kimi and are McLaren fans, aka Finns."

To me the latter is generalizing but as ioan says he doesnt do that so I must be wrong.


And about the question whether MS left because of Kimi... There was a lot talk about this even on this forum when Michael announced his retirement. I simply think there are many aspects of this all that no one on this forum knows. We only speculate. Of course Michael would never say he left because of Kimi. Luca would never say that. Todt would never say that. No one at Ferrari would never say that. Does that mean we´ve heard the true story?

I´d say its naive to think so. I also think its old news anyway. MS is gone and even these new guys can give us a hell of a show. So lets move on.

PS. Sorry if I offended people of Romania or Turkmenistan. I dont know anyone from these countries and they mean absolutely nothing to me, so my remark was totally uncalled for. Do accept my apologies. I wish you all the best.

[ArrowsFA1]

It was Gary Player...
Or Samuel Goldwyn whose version was "the harder I work the luckier I get" ;)

[leopard]

Fortune brings in some boats that are not steered. ~William Shakespeare ;)

[samuratt]

... and is mainly calm and analytical out of the car, but not too monosyllabic :p

Are you referring to the incident between Fernando and Massa at the Nurburing?? ;) :P

[ioan]

PS. Sorry if I offended people of Romania or Turkmenistan. I dont know anyone from these countries and they mean absolutely nothing to me, so my remark was totally uncalled for. Do accept my apologies. I wish you all the best.

Accepted. Next time do some search before making such remarks, or even better use some common sense.

[Juppe]

Accepted. Next time do some search before making such remarks, or even better use some common sense.

Just making sure that it is still ok to make offending comments about Finns in general, is it? It sure would be nice retain at least one group of people that can be insulted with no consequences....

[markabilly]

Fortune brings in some boats that are not steered. ~William Shakespeare ;)


Are you referring to the incident between Fernando and Massa at the Nurburing?? ;) :P


No, i think lepard was refferring to "the crane" .....

[janneppi]

If only samuratt had been referring to leopardsleeping's post ;)

[SGWilko]

I would restrain from generalizing about an entire nation.....

.....Put me into the group of those who support Ferrari no matter the driver, but in the same time don't get along with the hypocrites that don't care about Ferrari, support Kimi and are McLaren fans, aka Finns.

Spoken from the heart, not a hint of hypocracy in sight.

Tsk. :rolleyes: ;)

Referring of course to post 96......

[ioan]

Spoken from the heart, not a hint of hypocracy in sight.

Tsk. :rolleyes: ;)

Referring of course to post 96......

Finns is intended as per the Finnish forum members generally not the Finnish nation. I didn't say Finland or the whole Finnish nation!
But hey, whatever floats your boat. :rolleyes:

It was always going to take time for the tifosi to warm to Kimi, particularly when the early season results were a bit under what we had all been hoping.

But any doubts and uncertainty about Kimi that any Ferrari fans had (myself included) disappeared on Sunday October 21st 2007.

He's Ferrari's World Champion!

What's not to like about that sentence?

[Osella]

...drives in an entertaining way, fights wheel-to-wheel with no hesitation...


Are you referring to the incident between Fernando and Massa at the Nurburing?? ;) :P

Yes, partly :p

[Dzeidzei]

He's Ferrari's World Champion!


Amen.

PS. I cannot do searches and I definitely lack something like a common sense.

PSS. Of course people can insult the Finns. Heck, we fought the Russians twice in WW2 and couldnt care less of a few insults. It seems we are only good at 2 things: making cell phones and driving very fast.


:)

[ioan]

Amen.

PS. I cannot do searches and I definitely lack something like a common sense.

PSS. Of course people can insult the Finns. Heck, we fought the Russians twice in WW2 and couldnt care less of a few insults. It seems we are only good at 2 things: making cell phones and driving very fast.


:)

You might be right! :p :
And what have the Russians and WWII to do with this thread?

[BDunnell]

Unnecessary quarrels, schisms, misunderstandings between F1 fans derive from the fact that support, sympathies and personal preferences are too strongly emphasized in posts, hindering concentration on important aspects.

:up:

I would again say that it's much more pleasurable to enjoy F1, and indeed to discuss it with fellow enthusiasts, if you don't let personal preferences for teams or drivers get in the way. Then we can all get on without arguments that no-one can win.

I would again say that it's much more pleasurable to enjoy F1 if you don't let personal preferences for teams or drivers get in the way.

But that criteria would mean that Monza would be empty.

Not sure if that is really what you'd want.

[Dzeidzei]

And what have the Russians and WWII to do with this thread?

Just as much as the guys from Turkmenistan. :)

[Garry Walker]

And after the Italian GP he had to support Kimi giving up his position in Brazil and in Japan.

LIES. No team orders in Japan, he was running out of fuel. Do you know what fuel is and why cars need it?
As for Brazil, they never were racing or showing full pace. No comparison can be made.


And the suspension failure at Monza and the disqualification in Montreal... Did Kimi really have more mechanical retirements..? Kimi had 2 car related DNFs. Massa DSQ at montreal was his own fault.


And the DQ in Montreal was ridiculous, when in previous seasons drivers have committed the same offence and been merely given a stop-go. You clearly understand nothing at all. He drove through the red light, that is always a straight DSQ, no stop and go. No substance in your post. Admit you were lying.


Also don't forget that Felipe gifted Kimi the title at Brazil! Without him, Kimi was not fast enough to win the title. End of story. They were never racing at Brazil, get over your anger.


Could you please do a list with all their problems and the points lost?! Then we can talk seriously, not just throw in a post without any support whatsoever.

IMO- Massa lost 5 points at Australia, canada is irrelevant as it was massas own mistake, 3 at Silverstone, 6 points at Hungary and 5 or 6 points at Monza and that is it.
KR lost 8 points at Spain, at least 8 at Nürburgring and maybe 2 at Malaysia due to engine detuning. So I would say that Massa lost around 20 points and Kimi lost around 18 points due to car problems. 2 points difference, no change in the end.



So from now on we should also consider pre-season mechanical failures? Or should we go all the way until childhood?

Yes, because a pre-season testing accident has an effect on a GP weekend and having your suspension fail at 320 and going to wall, injuring your neck and losing practise time has no effect on your race.
Better sue your doctor for malpractise.


So to say Kimi was better ''cos he won', is rubbish!
He won because he drove better and made less mistakes at critical times.

I say that as a guy who predicted Massa to beat Kimi, but I am not going to try to make myself look stupid by saying he was as good as KR this year. He wasnt. This season it might change, but it might not. We`ll see.



Regarding Massa and missing luck...as someone once said "The harder you work, the luckier you get." :s mokin:

You know, off-topic, but that isnt true. I have a friend, a lazy friend, who has such amount of luck that sometimes we just shake our heads. Playing monopoly with him is outruled, as he will win every time, unbelieveable luck.
He also regularly wins at the casino.

[samuratt]

Amen.

PS. I cannot do searches and I definitely lack something like a common sense.

PSS. Of course people can insult the Finns. Heck, we fought the Russians twice in WW2 and couldnt care less of a few insults. It seems we are only good at 2 things: making cell phones and driving very fast.


:)

I've heard your good at vodka distilling and drinking it too!!! ;) :)

[ioan]

LIES. No team orders in Japan, he was running out of fuel. Do you know what fuel is and why cars need it?

How is that both Kimi and Felipe stopped around the same time during the race and Felipe did however to stop again very few laps before the end of the race?!



As for Brazil, they never were racing or showing full pace. No comparison can be made.

Or maybe they were doing it! I don't see how you can support your POV on this one.

[ioan]

Just as much as the guys from Turkmenistan. :)

It was just a rhetoric question! ;)

[Garry Walker]

The forums smartass came back! :rolleyes:
awwwwwwwwwwwwwww.




How is that both Kimi and Felipe stopped around the same time during the race and Felipe did however to stop again very few laps before the end of the race?!



I really got you now :D

Let me show the lap number when they pitted.
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2007/784/6451/pit_stop_summary.html

Massa on lap 2, KR on lap 3
Massa lap 14, KR on lap 15. So far so good.
Then massa has a drive through at lap 20, no fuel or tyre change.
Then Kimi pits at lap 40, Massa still going.
Finally Massa pits at lap 58, after having done 43!!! laps on a single fuel-load.


As you can see, when Ferraris stopped at lap 14-15, they knew they couldnt manage with that fuel to the end, as their fuel tank simply is not big enough for that. So both required additional fuel to be taken on.

After that Massas only chance of making to the finish with that fuel load was to hope for many many laps of SC, but there werent enough of them.

Going by your theory, Massa was exactly supposed to pit around that time when he pitted (there was a SC in between for 6-7 laps, which helped his fuel consumption a lot obviously, making the lap difference a bit bigger than it really was).

Or did you think Massa had enough fuel capacity for doing 53 laps without pitting? :rotflmao:
ahhh I feel pretty good now :D


Or maybe they were doing it! I don't see how you can support your POV on this one.
1) If they were racing, then surley you will admit KR beat FM on speed
2) KR said they never were pushing flat-out and could have gone much faster. He also said he could have challenged FM easily in the first corner (they were side by side), but instead he backed down and slowed LH.

[ArrowsFA1]

"I would have been the 2007 world champion if my car had been more reliable"
Now he says the problem was luck:

"...to become world champion you need everything, luck too, and [Kimi] had more than me."
It's interesting that he also says "this year I feel strong and motivated as ever because I know I have everything to fight on an equal footing." Was that not the case last year?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64925

It's interesting that he also says "this year I feel strong and motivated as ever because I know I have everything to fight on an equal footing." Was that not the case last year?

Yes. That's the way i read what Massa is saying.

At the start of last season I fully expected Ferrari to continue the old Schumacher era system of having a Number One driver. Especially since Kimi was being paid 5 times what Massa was.

Now Ferrari perhaps would have stuck to the old system if Kimi & the F2007 hadn't taken a while to gel, but the results of last year proved to everybody, including Felipe, that he wasn't a Number 2 and he had equal equipment and equal status.

He can therefore be optimistic that he will get equal equipment in 2008 because he has 2007 to prove that he does get equal equipment.

At least, that's how I read his statement.

[catnip]

Massa knows he'll be fighting on equal footing because he already was in 2007. It's a bit of a non-statement really.

[Dzeidzei]

It was just a rhetoric question! ;)

Was it? With you no one can tell.

[samuratt]

They will have equal treatment till the last 4 or 5 races where ferrari will do whatever it takes to make one of its drivers WDC, and Ferrari WCC!

[Dzeidzei]

It's interesting that he also says "this year I feel strong and motivated as ever because I know I have everything to fight on an equal footing." Was that not the case last year?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64925

Hopefully his tone wont start to resemble Freddie from last year...

I am sure that Kimi would have to support him, if things turned round and Felipe was in a better position to fight for wdc. And Kimi would be okay with it.

I am also sure that there is no chance in hell that something like that will happen.

[leopard]

Massa will not be another Alonso, I define what's Massa said reflect his personality to give the team priority at the cost of his own interest. That wouldn't have any form of good whatsoever if only he said like he was designated only to support someone else.

He's said what he has to say, we might not know explicitly that he is a second driver, but strategy being implemented differently to both Ferrari drivers were sort of undeniable evidence.

He might be true at some extent that he lost opportunity on winning last year because of bad luck, and bad destiny ;)

[leopard]

Forgot to mention, that above post doesn't automatically mean that Kimi was not capable of winning the title by himself, but I'd believe that strategy has been made on the table worked more than if the riders have to decide it themselves at the track.

[Osella]

You clearly understand nothing at all. He drove through the red light, that is always a straight DSQ, no stop and go. No substance in your post. Admit you were lying.
.


I suggest that you check your facts before suggesting that driving through the red light is always an instant DQ because at the very same track there have been drivers who have done the same thing and merely been given a stop-go penalty. So I suggest you check your facts properly before you start on this sort of - response.

[tintop]

Amen.

PS. I cannot do searches and I definitely lack something like a common sense.

PSS. Of course people can insult the Finns. Heck, we fought the Russians twice in WW2 and couldnt care less of a few insults. It seems we are only good at 2 things: making cell phones and driving very fast.


:) Ahhh, from my experiences you guys are pretty damn tough drinkers too! :eek:

[Garry Walker]

I suggest that you check your facts before suggesting that driving through the red light is always an instant DQ because at the very same track there have been drivers who have done the same thing and merely been given a stop-go penalty. So I suggest you check your facts properly before you start on this sort of - response.

Give me examples then (and I mean examples in plural, as you implied that there are more than 1 example of that with your post)
The last examples I know - Montoya in 2005 - Black Flagged
Massa, Fisichella - Black Flagged.

But I am waiting for your examples.

Oh btw Ioan - I am still waiting for your reply :D

[SGWilko]

Oh btw Ioan - I am still waiting for your reply :D

There is a joke in there somewhere....

How do you keep an (insert phrase of choice here) in suspense......

:laugh:

[ioan]

Give me examples then (and I mean examples in plural, as you implied that there are more than 1 example of that with your post)
The last examples I know - Montoya in 2005 - Black Flagged
Massa, Fisichella - Black Flagged.

But I am waiting for your examples.

Oh btw Ioan - I am still waiting for your reply :D


I tried a few times, but turned out I can't because I was banned.
What were we talking about?

Ah, how did Ferarri manage to fuel Felipe 5 laps short of hat needed to complete the distance?!
Don't know but it's however an interesting question about a team that rarely does such stupid moves.

And let's not go to the: "Why did he give up his position in Brazil?" question! :D

[Garry Walker]

I tried a few times, but turned out I can't because I was banned.
What were we talking about?

Ah, how did Ferarri manage to fuel Felipe 5 laps short of hat needed to complete the distance?!
Don't know but it's however an interesting question about a team that rarely does such stupid moves.

And let's not go to the: "Why did he give up his position in Brazil?" question! :D

LOL!!!!!!!

Look, I destroyed your arguments
You still haven`t given a valueable reply to the facts I gave you earlier - Most likely because you have no arguments left.
So I consider you have been once, twice, three times destroyed.

[BDunnell]

LOL!!!!!!!

Look, I destroyed your arguments

You still haven`t given a valueable reply to the facts I gave you earlier - Most likely because you have no arguments left.
So I consider you have been once, twice, three times destroyed.

ioan did not lie. What he said may have been incorrect — I don't know — but this does not automatically mean that he lied. I don't believe it's acceptable to make that accusation.

[ioan]

LOL!!!!!!!

Look, I destroyed your arguments
You still haven`t given a valueable reply to the facts I gave you earlier - Most likely because you have no arguments left.
So I consider you have been once, twice, three times destroyed.

I think that you got a thinking problem (to put it mildly).
You had no argument against what I've put on the table, so please get off the high horse.

Why did Ferrari short fuel Massa, or maybe they didn't, they just brought him in to give Kimi his pace and a few more points that proved vital in the end?!

I'm still waiting for an answer from you part! An answer with some logical arguments. :rolleyes:

[janneppi]

you mean something like this?


Let me show the lap number when they pitted.
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2007/784/6451/pit_stop_summary.html

Massa on lap 2, KR on lap 3
Massa lap 14, KR on lap 15. So far so good.
Then massa has a drive through at lap 20, no fuel or tyre change.
Then Kimi pits at lap 40, Massa still going.
Finally Massa pits at lap 58, after having done 43!!! laps on a single fuel-load.


As you can see, when Ferraris stopped at lap 14-15, they knew they couldnt manage with that fuel to the end, as their fuel tank simply is not big enough for that. So both required additional fuel to be taken on.


Ferrari didn't short-fuel Massa, infact he had a two second longer pit stop at lap 15 compared to Kimi at lap 14, this gave him the opportunity to run longer than Kimi, unfortunately for Massa, he had his drive through penalty.
Unless were going to speculate if Massa intentionally passed someone on a yellow flag zone to let Kimi by? ;)

[ioan]

It still doesn't explain why in a rain hit race they fueled him so heavily but not enough to go the full distance?

[janneppi]

Id say 58 laps in a modern F1 car is quite a number of laps.
What time did Massa get the penalty, was it before lap 15 or after?
If after, there was really nothing they could do at that point, he was out of the competition no matter what.
If before Masa was still in trouble and Ferrari might have tried to risk it and hope for a suitable SC period. I don't think they sacrififed Massa and began playing the title for Kimi in a race like that with only 10- 15 laps into the race.

[Ranger]

The way I see it:

Ferrari looks to have the fastest car this year, and one that is reliable, so Felipe is fortunate enough to have his chance again - a better chance actually.

So I'll come back to this topic after November 2nd and then form another opinion. :D

[Garry Walker]

I think that you got a thinking problem (to put it mildly).
You had no argument against what I've put on the table, so please get off the high horse.

Why did Ferrari short fuel Massa, or maybe they didn't, they just brought him in to give Kimi his pace and a few more points that proved vital in the end?!

I'm still waiting for an answer from you part! An answer with some logical arguments. :rolleyes:

I answered all your weak points and destroyed your arguments and Janneppi was kind enough to repost what I posted, so that you would not have to miss it. So far you have not countered any of them.

For example, do you remember saying this


How is that both Kimi and Felipe stopped around the same time during the race and Felipe did however to stop again very few laps before the end of the race?!
And what the FACTS about that are?


It still doesn't explain why in a rain hit race they fueled him so heavily but not enough to go the full distance?

Because, as has been pointed out already: They didn`t know how long the race would last, would there be any more SC periods, the fuel tank simply was not big enough (it would have required fuel for 53 laps when he pitted to make it to the end, not including possible SC. Even someone like you would admit that Ferraris fuel tank probably is not big enough to handle all that. Even if it was, then you would have to understand that when Massa pitted, there was a SC and Ferrari couldn`t have known how long the SC would keep going or if there would be another SC, making it likely that Massa could have been stuck with far more fuel than actually needed. And extra fuel makes you much slower, doesn`t it).
There are just so many variables as to why Ioans "theory" is barely worth used toilet-paper.

Actually, looking at how the race turned out, Ferraris strategy was very sensible. If there had been no SC, he would have probably pitted around lap 50 and that was 17 laps before the end. Which is a very normal strategy

[ioan]

I answered all your weak points and destroyed your arguments and Janneppi was kind enough to repost what I posted, so that you would not have to miss it. So far you have not countered any of them.

One has to know when there is no more use to reply to certain posts.



Because, as has been pointed out already: They didn`t know how long the race would last, would there be any more SC periods, the fuel tank simply was not big enough (it would have required fuel for 53 laps when he pitted to make it to the end, not including possible SC. Even someone like you would admit that Ferraris fuel tank probably is not big enough to handle all that. Even if it was, then you would have to understand that when Massa pitted, there was a SC and Ferrari couldn`t have known how long the SC would keep going or if there would be another SC, making it likely that Massa could have been stuck with far more fuel than actually needed. And extra fuel makes you much slower, doesn`t it).

You used the SC as pro and contra argument 5 times in the above paragraph, not to mention that you are contradicting yourself.

FM and KR started the race with the wrong tires and after a few laps they were sent to the back of the field.
Ferrari should have taken all the risks to bring them up front. Pitting your driver with 5 laps to go and losing him a podium position was not what they should have done.

[DonJippo]

One has to know when there is no more use to reply to certain posts.

Oh man you really are one of the kind, cheers for that ;)

[Garry Walker]

One has to know when there is no more use to reply to certain posts.



You used the SC as pro and contra argument 5 times in the above paragraph, not to mention that you are contradicting yourself.

FM and KR started the race with the wrong tires and after a few laps they were sent to the back of the field.
Ferrari should have taken all the risks to bring them up front. Pitting your driver with 5 laps to go and losing him a podium position was not what they should have done.

Again, I feel like talking to a wall.

I explained in many ways why and how Ferrari couldn`t have known how much fuel to give to either driver to make it to the end and that their fuel tank simply wasn`t big enough anyway.
A schoolboy would understand these arguments and their relevance, but you seemingly can`t.

[Tazio]

Of course, but much the same could be said of everyone on the grid. If only this, that or the other... :D
QUOTE]

Exactly! But it really pisses me off that there are so many people who go 'so and so won' end of... Without looking at what really happened in context.

In reality, Felipe was just as fast as Kimi over the year as a whole, althugh (excepting Turkey and Brazil, question mark over Monza ;) ) Kimi was faster in the second half of the season. So to say Kimi was better ''cos he won', is rubbish! Just like people put Panis' win down to attrition, and ignore the number of cars he overtook that day, and ignore the fact Prost really would and should have won the 1990 world title, Schumacher only was allowed to score in 12 races in 1994 etc..

The fact that both Ferrari drivers were in contention for the title until the end of the season, and had more mechanical problems and few driver errors indicates to me that they performed better than the mcLaren drivers IMO, and they were very balanced over the season as a whole. There were days where Massa was in his own league compared to the whole field, including Kimi.

So yes, Massa would have been in a much better position compared to the others without the bad luck he got this year, and perhaps the title fight would have come down to just the two Ferrari drivers at the end of the year if neither had been hampered by these issues.
Let's hope that's what it comes down to in 2008! :up:
Yea' Babe!

[ioan]

Again, I feel like talking to a wall.

Maybe you should stop then.

[janneppi]

Let's all stop.