Minimum 18 car 08 grid ?

[seppefan]

FPR 3
Walker 2
NHL 2
Conquest 2
Minardi 2
DCR 2
KV 2
PCM 2
rocket 1

[Jimmy Magnusson]

We've heard that many times in the past years. Forsythe's 3rd car is not definate, so that will be the deciding factor.

[sanguin]

Rocketsports may have 2 also.

[Chaparral66]

Anyone heard of any new teams on the horizon that could add to this?

[SoCalPVguy]

You are a little premature on this... For example AR1 shows only 5 "confirmed" rides, 8 "strong" rides, the remainder of the up to 17-18 cars are "speculation"

Given the past the only way to know how big the field will be is on the Friday of the first race at Long Beach.

[tbyars]

You are a little premature on this... For example AR1 shows only 5 "confirmed" rides, 8 "strong" rides, the remainder of the up to 17-18 cars are "speculation"

Given the past the only way to know how big the field will be is on the Friday of the first race at Long Beach.

Not to mention that no one needs to get carried away about Walker yet, either.

From what I hear (sorry, no link) Aussie Vinyards and Gore are out at Walker in 2008. Derrick will cut back to one car, and he is shopping around to decide if that one car will be in the ICS or CCWS.

That is JUST a rumor, but it is a rumor from someone close to the team that has always been 100% right in the past. That same person told me AV and Gore were in about 3 weeks before the official announcement showed up.

[Lousada]

Seeing is believing. Just weeks ago Walker was supposed to run 3 cars, now suddenly it's back to one car? The deafening silence from Champcar and most of it's teams make people invent the wildest stories.
I have no doubt that all the current teams show up in 2008. And I have no doubt there will be at least 17 cars. However I'm not so sure the carcounts will be like in the opening post.

[sanguin]

Walker is talking to Power and will be at Sebring with CC.

[CCFanatic]

Rocketsports may have 2 also.

That second car would most likey clear the third FPR car. But you never know, when money and drivers want to race, cars seem to magically appear.

[Cart750hp]

FPR 3
Walker 2
NHL 2
Conquest 2
Minardi 2
DCR 2
KV 2
PCM 2
rocket 1

Is it Long Beach yet? Uh no.

[Roninho]

imo it will be a group of 10 to 14 drivers that will be there all/most races and a group of ever changing paydrivers that run the other cars, with a minimum grid of 16 or 17 cars for some races with a maximum of 18 or 19 cars @ some other events.

Sorry, but with (almost) no news of confirmed cars or new teams entering the series by this late in the pre-season it's imo certain that there will be no growth in cargrids this year.

[indycool]

Agree with CART750. As I posted elsewhere, there will be sponsor scrambling for another month or two. Then the pay drivers will enter the picture about mid-March and their sponsors will be looking for the minimum and the teams will be looking for the max in dollars, so further negotiations. Then comes whatever CC needs to spend to have what it considers or is contracted for an appropriate grid at Long Beach, Coyne announces his drivers on Friday of race week there and drop the flag. That's the way it's been and there are no signs that point differently this time.

[SarahFan]

anything less than 24....for either series......is failure

[BobGarage]

anything less than 24....for either series......is failure

formula 1 doesn't have 24 cars and hasn't for a long time. are they a failure too?

[SarahFan]

formula 1 doesn't have 24 cars and hasn't for a long time. are they a failure too?


can you give me a single positive of a 18 v 24 car grid?

[CCFanatic]

can you give me a single positive of a 18 v 24 car grid?

24 cars gives you more buy drivers?

18 gives you more drivers of better quality and competitive.

I see 8-10 cars in every series that can win every race. The rest are just to fill the field so the series looks good on TV and to the fans. If you gave me a Bourdais v. Tracy race every weekend, I would have been happy. I wouldn't care about the other cars.

Or Jeff Gordon v. Jimmie Johnson in Nascar.

Or Kimi v. Fernando.

[SarahFan]

24 cars gives you more buy drivers?

18 gives you more drivers of better quality and competitive.

I see 8-10 cars in every series that can win every race. The rest are just to fill the field so the series looks good on TV and to the fans. If you gave me a Bourdais v. Tracy race every weekend, I would have been happy. I wouldn't care about the other cars.

Or Jeff Gordon v. Jimmie Johnson in Nascar.

Or Kimi v. Fernando.

so 2 is better than 18?


rediculous...

ride buyers are just a symptom of a bigger problem

[BobGarage]

can you give me a single positive of a 18 v 24 car grid?

you didn't answer my question.

You stated that anything less than a 24 car grid is a failure.
Formula 1 for many years has not had 24 cars. So is Formula 1 just as much of a failure as champ car because they don't have 24 cars?

[SarahFan]

you didn't answer my question.

You stated that anything less than a 24 car grid is a failure.
Formula 1 for many years has not had 24 cars. So is Formula 1 just as much of a failure as champ car because they don't have 24 cars?

I believe a 24 car grid should be minimum.....your question includes 'as much' in it...

22 v 17....at 22 the answer is no it's not as much a failure as CC at 17

is 22 still too low IMO ....yes...

[indycool]

I would appreciate and enjoy a 24-car grid for any or all of them. And maybe 2-3 that try qualifying but miss the show.

NASCAR has that with 43 plus the "load-ups." And part of the story lines of a NASCAR weekend is who makes it and who misses.

[BobGarage]

NASCAR has that with 43 plus the "load-ups." And part of the story lines of a NASCAR weekend is who makes it and who misses.

43 cars does not help the racing, it increases the chance of the "big one" which is what the majority of people watch nascar for. IMO 43 is too many.

i agree with ken that 24 cars is a good number, however i don't think not having 24 cars is a failure. at the moment an increase to 24 cars would just bring in more ride buyers and more moving chicanes at the back of the field. in the long term as the series rebuilds and the driver quality increases a 24 car grid would be good, but at the moment i don't think it is needed just for the sake of having 24 cars.

i do think 18 needs to be an absolute minimum and lets hope cc make it to 18 for ALL races this year.

[indycool]

Bob, those are stock cars and not open-wheelers and I probably agree with you at places like Martinsville and Bristol about it being too many. But that's the standard system now and they deal with it. There have been Daytona 500s starting over 50 cars in earlier days. Indy started 42 in 1933.

I also agree with you that not having 24 is not a failure, but a reasonable preference. I also added that having 2-3 "load-ups" after qualifying a field of 24 would put more emphasis on qualifying and I believe that would raise the level of competition as it goes along.

[madman16]

anything less than 24....for either series......is failure

I agree. Less than 24 in a series worldwide is a failure. Unfortunately the dollar rules all sport and series organisers need to find a balance between cost/performance/technology. CC and IRL struggle for a number of other reasons that i won't get into now. But F1 has teams with budgets exceeding $500m. You can't tell me you need that much money to race 2 cars 20 weeks a year.

Unfortunately other racing series suffer from the success of others. Nascar has the best ratings, therefore sucking up the dollars from the rest of the series, F1 is the same, even V8 supercars in Aus has the same prob. Sponsors see it as a better opportunity to be a tiny sticker on a big series than a big sticker on a smaller one.

Spread the wealth and everyone will prosper

[philipbain]

I think when it comes to grid sizes that for "road course" racing in open wheelers (be it F1, Champ Car, IRL, GP2) about 20 cars is perfectly acceptable, it provides the depth of field needed and things don't get too crowded.

When it comes to ovals its a different story as the traffic provides the main feature on tracks that when compared to even the most mediocre road course are relatively featureless, then i'd say the optimum is about 30 cars for open wheelers on the big ovals and NASCAR's 43 is a good number for stock cars, for open wheelers such a number would be excessive as the cars are so fast (and ultimately the speed differential greater between the front runners and back markers) that the cars tend to get lapped more often, providing the traffic to intensify the action. When you see an IRL oval race with less than 20 cars it really does become apparent that the action suffers, particulary as attrition reduces the number of cars further.

In closing I think that it's important to get as many cars on the grid as possible, but within reason, all teams should be well enough funded to actually have a hope of competing, for example I think that a current F1 grid of 22 quality cars fielded by 11 good teams is much better than the situation in F1 at the end of the 80s when there were up to 39 cars trying to qualify for 26 places yet there were only about 7 or 8 good quality teams in there.

[MAX_THRUST]

When CART had 26 cars at some races, there was still ride buyers, or back markers. Traffic is a part of racing, and being the ebst at getting past should be part of the skills required by top drivers. Say Zanardi at LongBeach, dropped to the back and won the race with messed up steering/suspension system. Watching any driver carve through slower traffic is great, even if you expect him to pass. More cars means more accidents/ engine failures means more yellows which means more chance of close racing, more chance of fighting back, more chance for alternative statergies, more chance of everything, including a tV show people will watch....

I think of the Summer of 96' by a Naples hotel pool and bar with free pizza watching Al Unser Junior loose it on the last lap due to engine failure, the same race Parker Johnstone rolled it into turn one. There was 26 cars in that race I believe and it was great......

By this time of the year at least half the field should be set. The series is in a mess and how much longer can it plod along.

I don't wanna watch a series that plods along I wanna watch one that is racing along in to a possitive future. DOom and gloom, is now associated with CCWS, because that is what we have been force fed for the last 5 years. I don't believe the hype anymore and I don't believe things are gonna get better, until they are alot worse. It stinks and these idiots need to wake up.

There are families out there use lives are greatly affected by the business, and when the business is failing these peoples lives are made very difficult.

[Rogelio]

When CART had 26 cars at some races, there was still ride buyers, or back markers. Traffic is a part of racing, and being the ebst at getting past should be part of the skills required by top drivers. Say Zanardi at LongBeach, dropped to the back and won the race with messed up steering/suspension system. Watching any driver carve through slower traffic is great, even if you expect him to pass. More cars means more accidents/ engine failures means more yellows which means more chance of close racing, more chance of fighting back, more chance for alternative statergies, more chance of everything, including a tV show people will watch....

I think of the Summer of 96' by a Naples hotel pool and bar with free pizza watching Al Unser Junior loose it on the last lap due to engine failure, the same race Parker Johnstone rolled it into turn one. There was 26 cars in that race I believe and it was great......

By this time of the year at least half the field should be set. The series is in a mess and how much longer can it plod along.

I don't wanna watch a series that plods along I wanna watch one that is racing along in to a possitive future. DOom and gloom, is now associated with CCWS, because that is what we have been force fed for the last 5 years. I don't believe the hype anymore and I don't believe things are gonna get better, until they are alot worse. It stinks and these idiots need to wake up.

There are families out there use lives are greatly affected by the business, and when the business is failing these peoples lives are made very difficult.

Well said. How many cars is an adquate amount? Twenty or more would be great. A race that finishes with less 10 cars leaves a lot to be desired. More cars on the track equates more passing. More passing equates more strategical driving. Arguing that 18 cars is an adquate number is accepting the reality that no new teams are willing to engage in CCWS racing. I am sure that the incompetent CC management would love nothing more than new teams beating down the doors to join the series. As we all know, that is whishful thinking because CC management has done a poor job since 2003. I agree 100% that the idiot CC management needs to wake up.

[Lee Roy]

you didn't answer my question.

You stated that anything less than a 24 car grid is a failure.
Formula 1 for many years has not had 24 cars. So is Formula 1 just as much of a failure as champ car because they don't have 24 cars?

Formula One has less than 22 cars because of they are exclusive in who they allow to compete. If they allowed everyone to compete that wanted to, they would have far more than 24 cars.

Champ Car and the IRL do not are not exclusive in who they allow to compete.

F1 currently has 11 teams. When they openned up the Concorde Agreement to allow one more team to join the "Club" so they would have 24 cars on the grid, they had 13 teams apply, of which they picked one.

[millencolin]

Formula One has less than 22 cars because of they are exclusive in who they allow to compete. If they allowed everyone to compete that wanted to, they would have far more than 24 cars.



yeah but remember when they let any team join? it was a joke! you had ridiculously slow teams suuch as EuroBrun, Pacific, Coloni and god forbid Andrea Moda! Best thing f1 did was restrict the amount of teams so that the fans knew that every car that would be fielded would be somewhat competitive.

[ShiftingGears]

yeah but remember when they let any team join? it was a joke! you had ridiculously slow teams suuch as EuroBrun, Pacific, Coloni and god forbid Andrea Moda! Best thing f1 did was restrict the amount of teams so that the fans knew that every car that would be fielded would be somewhat competitive.

IMO the 107% rule was good in sorting that out. I don't really think that limiting the entries to 12 2 car teams is so good. More teams, even if they are slow, allow more racing for the minor positions.

[Lee Roy]

yeah but remember when they let any team join? it was a joke! you had ridiculously slow teams suuch as EuroBrun, Pacific, Coloni and god forbid Andrea Moda! Best thing f1 did was restrict the amount of teams so that the fans knew that every car that would be fielded would be somewhat competitive.


Every series has backmarkers. I don't believe in restricting entries.

[nanders]

I don't wanna watch a series that plods along I wanna watch one that is racing along in to a possitive future. DOom and gloom, is now associated with CCWS, because that is what we have been force fed for the last 5 years. I don't believe the hype anymore and I don't believe things are gonna get better, until they are alot worse. It stinks and these idiots need to wake up.

If you truly are a race promoter Max and by chance be a CCWS race promoter I would have to call this a "call to action for CCWS" or even an indictment of poor performance of the CCWS. I have said this before, but these guys have apparently hijacked "Champ Car" to do something other then what resembles what Champ Cars are. I don't believe they deserve to be using the name Champ Car because they have bas****ized it. They have turned their backs on the fans that loved champ cars and with exception of a few champcar fanatics most lovers of AOWR are seeing right through them. The CCWS owners are "out of touch" with what is really champ car racing.

Given that we all know something needs to change, Max what would your solution be?

[MAX_THRUST]

I honestly think there is only one solution, but that requires certain persons to be honest to the fans, themselves and their business partners. Decisions need to be made, and many will not make the loyal fans of either the IRL or CCWS happy. Regardless of that a single series is the only choice. There are many fans on here who have the answers, most of us agree with those answers, but we would argue the finer points (expected).

The answer is so simple, but it has been made so difficult by all the parties involved.

[Claus Hansen]

I seems to remeber that Champcar stated in report on their webside, that there were no new Panoz's chassis to buy, and Panozs would only build new one, if there were a order of 5 or something, so a increase of the grid is not possible at the time...

A 17 or 18 car grid is good enough for me, 12 - 14 or that kind a number is not a grid, sorry !!!

[BobGarage]

I seems to remeber that Champcar stated in report on their webside, that there were no new Panoz's chassis to buy, and Panozs would only build new one, if there were a order of 5 or something, so a increase of the grid is not possible at the time...

not true. Jenson claimed that when announcing he would run a car in the 2007 season finale at mexico and said that he couldn't get a chassis from panoz for that reason. Just a week later panoz produced one chassis for dale coyne without any other teams placing orders.

[Alexamateo]

not true. Jenson claimed that when announcing he would run a car in the 2007 season finale at mexico and said that he couldn't get a chassis from panoz for that reason. Just a week later panoz produced one chassis for dale coyne without any other teams placing orders.

I don't know anything about their business, but I do know about my business, and there are certain customers you make excuses to and others you ship right away, no questions asked.

As an outsider, I read that as Dale Coyne has good credit and a good reputation, and Jenson doesn't.

[Lousada]

Not to mention that no one needs to get carried away about Walker yet, either.

From what I hear (sorry, no link) Aussie Vinyards and Gore are out at Walker in 2008. Derrick will cut back to one car, and he is shopping around to decide if that one car will be in the ICS or CCWS.

That is JUST a rumor, but it is a rumor from someone close to the team that has always been 100% right in the past. That same person told me AV and Gore were in about 3 weeks before the official announcement showed up.

Guess you were right after all.
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=708565

[seppefan]

FPR 3
Walker 2
NHL 2
Conquest 2
Minardi 2
DCR 2
KV 2
PCM 2
rocket 1
TEAM AUSTRALIA STILL MIA

Once again there was no sign of Team Australia at Sebring, leaving the car count at 14 on the day. Will Power, who won a pair of races last year and who is widely regarded as one of the favorites for the ‘08 title sounded nonplussed when we tracked him down by cell-phone.

“We’re sorting a few things out,” he said, “and we’ll be at the next test for sure. We had the car on the shaker rig early this week and everything is going forward. It’s all good.”

Team co-owner Derrick Walker was similarly up-beat.

“I’ve got the same driver, the same car and the same crew we had last year, he said, tongue firmly in cheek. “Why do we need to go to Sebring and run up the mileage for two and half days? It’s not like we have a rookie driver to test. It’s not like we have a bunch of mechanics who’ve never worked on the Panoz before. It’s not like we’ve hired a whole bunch of engineers from other teams and we’ve got to sort
through all their set-ups to see what works.”

Some cynics suggested that Walker was trying to send a message to Champ Car owners Gerald Forsythe, Paul Gentilozzi, Kevin Kalkhoven and Dan Pettit by not showing up; others suggested the message was not directed at Champ Car’s owners but at Walker’s partner in Team Australia, Craig Gore . .
++++
So is Walker talking a one car attack in 08.?
This would produce a 16 car grid basis 2 from Forsythe..

[Mikeall]

I seems to remeber that Champcar stated in report on their webside, that there were no new Panoz's chassis to buy, and Panozs would only build new one, if there were a order of 5 or something, so a increase of the grid is not possible at the time...

A 17 or 18 car grid is good enough for me, 12 - 14 or that kind a number is not a grid, sorry !!!

British Touring Cars had around 12-14 starters just as they started showing live races on ITV a few years ago, the most watched TV channel in the UK, last season I think the grid size had pretty much doubled from that point.

[nanders]

British Touring Cars had around 12-14 starters just as they started showing live races on ITV a few years ago, the most watched TV channel in the UK, last season I think the grid size had pretty much doubled from that point.

I also believe that 16 car grid size won't hurt the season.

[mike15]

can you give me a single positive of a 18 v 24 car grid?

6 less field fillers!

I would rather have 18 to 20 cars on the grid where all of them have a chance to make the podium.

Series like NASCAR and even the I500 have half of the grid filled with field fillers with no chance of making the podium unless there is the, BIG ONE, that takes out half the field.

But then there are those fans that enjoy the moving obstacles and the crash boom bang form of racing.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

So is Walker talking a one car attack in 08.?
This would produce a 16 car grid basis 2 from Forsythe..

I'd suspect Forsythe keeps a third car as a possibility if the numbers starts to drop.

[spiritone]

I think the test at laguna is going to give us the true picture of which teams and drivers are going to start the season. I suspect the management of champcar is going to work hard at getting 9 teams and 18 cars to the grid for long beach to start the season off on a positive note. What combination of teams and drivers we can only speculate, and that's what we do best.

[FlatChatRacer]

Spiritone,

I agree with your assessment. The CCWS leaders will do whatever it takes to ensure at least 17/18 cars come raceday at Long Beach.

With so much speculation surrounding the series and it's survival, I think perception is everything and they will do their best to ensure that the show goes on and looks good.

If I had a spare $10M I would field a two car team of my own!

[heelntoe]

Spiritone,

I agree with your assessment. The CCWS leaders will do whatever it takes to ensure at least 17/18 cars come raceday at Long Beach.

With so much speculation surrounding the series and it's survival, I think perception is everything and they will do their best to ensure that the show goes on and looks good.

If I had a spare $10M I would field a two car team of my own!

Sorry FCR, but perception is the last thing on the minds of the Amigos as evidenced by a long string of some of the dumbest business and pr moves in professional racing history. Do I think there will be 17 at race day, yes, but it will have more to do with the penalties they might have to pay if KK and GF didn't already own the race (or the terms that might change for other non Amigo promoters elsewhere). IMO, of course

[garyshell]

I think perception is everything and they will do their best to ensure that the show goes on and looks good.


Hmm, I wonder what perception they were trying to create by reducing two of the best races of the year, one of which was ALWAYS the best TV race of the year to a one hour tape delayed highlight show?

Gary

[indycool]

Good point, Gary...especially after they moved it off the Masters golf tournament date to draw more viewers.

[electron]

24 cars gives you more buy drivers?

18 gives you more drivers of better quality and competitive.


may I laugh at this, may I... pleeeeze?
It is too bitter though.

Someone who seriously wants to tell that teh CC field is "better quality and competitive" than "more buy drivers" is not paying attention.

as long as the highest bidder gets a seat (or anyone with any money becauuse it isn't the case that ridebuyers are piling up in font of the office doors just to get into CC... it's teh desperate ones that can't find anything elese) don't talk about quality fields.

[sanguin]

24 cars gives you more buy drivers?

18 gives you more drivers of better quality and competitive.



The quality of drivers is going to be better this year than last, IMO.

Here's an article about it.-

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/orl-sebring0508feb05,0,1879810.story

"But judging from the field at the three-day test at Sebring International Raceway, things don't look that grim.

"There are 14 cars here," said team owner Dale Coyne, "which is more than we had last year. And we have a better quality of drivers than we did last year."

[indycool]

Time will tell.

[heelntoe]

Time will tell.

Indeed. The question I guess I have, with roughly half of the Sebring drivers with deals and no new sponsors in sight AND KK and GF not on the best of terms, how will it go down when they have to sit down and decide on who gets financial assistance to run the season, or a few races, or whatever. The capital calls in place for these guys states that they have to put up cash on a pro rated basis in order to maintain their respective ownership. If KK and GF, the primary shareholders, aren't getting along well, and that I KNOW is true, then do guys like Derrick Walker have them over a barrel?

[indycool]

Absolutely. If they fuss between them, and the IRL is offering a $1.2 million TEAM subsidy to start with, I'd think those teams would be asking for $1.2m from 'em to start with. And if KK and GF can't decide who ponies up the cash.....Rahal and Fernandez had been "greased" the year before, and when The Amigos took over and said "no grease," they jumped.

[Sandfly]

Once again AR1 presents the CC "silly season" with a negative comment and then lists the IRL lineup with just as much "almost a certain deal" but no similar disparaging comment. Counting the "signed" and "strong" on CC I get the same as the IRL - "almost certain". Why the different comments Mark??

I am really tired of the negative headlines and passing comments. My opinion. I'll speak with my wallet in October.

[indycool]

You'll miss a lot of races if you wait till October.

I can't get Mark C.'s site but I was told the IRL list he has is 19 cars right now. How many does he list for CC?

[Sandfly]

You'll miss a lot of races if you wait till October.

I can't get Mark C.'s site but I was told the IRL list he has is 19 cars right now. How many does he list for CC?


My renewal will be up in Novemebr and I really am tired of the attenion gragger headlines.

The IRL shows 15 "pretty much definate" 4 "maybe" 19 maybe pretty much definate

CC shows 7 "FACT" 9 "Strong" 14 signed or strong


I do not see any reason to disparage selectively so early in the season. Wait a while. :)

[sanguin]

You'll miss a lot of races if you wait till October.

I can't get Mark C.'s site but I was told the IRL list he has is 19 cars right now. How many does he list for CC?

There's only 11 confirmed and 16 total maybe

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124336

[indycool]

Sandfly, I thought your comment was strange...couldn't imagine you waiting on races till October......you clarified, it was for subscription, not the races themselves. My oops.

I 'spect within about three weeks those numbers for both are going to change daily and in some cases, hourly, and in some cases, more than one time.

[FlatChatRacer]

HeelnToe/Garyshell/Indycool,

In answer to your various comments on the perception created by the "Amigos" for Champ Car. In my opinion, I think they do care about the series and how it is perceived.

They care because they have lots of money invested and they know that if they continually damage it, then that investment will continue to be devalued. I cannot believe that they want to own a worthless product.

The TV deal is simply a funding issue. They don't have much to go around. There attitude is that, what is the point of paying say $10M(guess) for all live races, when they can pay $3M(guess) for mainly tape delays. The viewing figures are so low it just isn't worth paying the higher cost. Any sponsorship that the teams/series acquires is inconsequential to the TV exposure. Effectively, Champ Car does not have a TV presence worth mentioning. The substantial saving can then be used to subsidise team entries if need be, or retained by the owners.

This year more than any other, shows how much wheeling and dealing the owners are doing. They are cutting back in lots of areas, so that there is money left in the kitty to ensure that they have at least 17/18 cars for the season.

There is no doubt in my mind that there are serious financial constraints at head office. As I said in another thread, I wouldn't be surprised if Cotman left due in part to financial issues with his compensation.

So, is Sebring and Laguna testing important. Of course it is and right now they are putting on a good show. Ride buyers are the key to Champ Cars survival this year and a lot of effort will go into securing these racer types.

My one big fear is that one or two of the teams are waiting to pull a fast one before Long Beach, just like Rahal and Fernandez four years ago.

If the Amigos are smart and forward thinking, they will already have a contingency plan ready, should the worst case scenario unfold.

They have seen this before in 2004, so there is no excuse for not being prepared this time.

[indycool]

FCR, I find your post very interesting and insightful. I differ just somewhat from it in a few ways.

I think their intent to be as big as they can be. But I don't think they know the business well enough to know what helps them and what doesn't.

No doubt their TV schedule went down price-wise this year simply because they purchased less hours. But TV is the lifeblood of MOST sports these days, with contracts, among others, with MLB, NFL, NBA, NASCAR and, yes, IRL, for rights fees.

As you said, that leaves more money for cars and you hafta have cars to have races. But it loses ROI for sponsors so the value of sponsorship goes down and their own cost goes up.

They made a big, big push and publicity and perception campaign about the DP-01 being the second coming. They didn't (and still don't) understand that the GENERAL fan cares if it's Mario Andretti or A.J. Foyt driving it, not whether it's a DP-01, a Dallara or a Studebaker. It also put the series "in the box" with another barrier to merge/join/come to one series if that opportunity came around.

They don't understand that the voices at CW are loud and boisterous and loyal, but few. If more than 30 of them attend one race or more than 200 watch on TV, it's next-to-nothing in the greater scheme of things, yet they allow their decisions to be massaged by it.

I believe they care about perception. But their inexperience at running a racing series has allowed reality to catch up with their perception way too often. IMO, they do not comprehend effectively with their decisions how all the pieces -- tracks, sponsors, drivers, teams, sanctioning body, TV, fans, markets -- come together. Since the beginning of CC and perhaps with Pook before that, it's been put out this fire, but putting it out started another one elsewhere.

At the helm, we've had Eidswick, Johnson, Cotman for a couple weeks, then he left and it's Johnson again, and how many people must approve it before he goes to the bathroom?

It will take many little decisions and many little pieces to build solidly. Instead, they're trying to hit home runs and the wind is blowing in at 200 miles an hour.

[Sandfly]

.....
It will take many little decisions and many little pieces to build solidly. Instead, they're trying to hit home runs and the wind is blowing in at 200 miles an hour.

Moving races to better time slots to attract new (non-fanatical) viewers

Introducing a lower cost car that improves the race experience/product

New races in markets interested in actually paying for tickets

I think those are the types of solid building blocks that are helping to improve the race product and it's exposure.

I am sure we both could make some other suggestions regarding PR and marketing that would help with exposure part. Thats the next block.

[EagleEye]

Rocketsports may have 2 also.


Rocketsports has two chassis; a primary and back up, and a crew for one car. No plans at all for two entries.

As for Walker being in Sebring, you are half right, but still wrong. Their Champcar crew stayed put in Indy, but the Atlantic squad is in Sebring for testing.

And, I'm sure by now you talked to Carl about his plans for '09.....

[SoCalPVguy]

Originally Posted by indycool http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/aria/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=420032#post420032)
You'll miss a lot of races if you wait till October. I can't get Mark C.'s site but I was told the IRL list he has is 19 cars right now. How many does he list for CC?

Posted by Sanguin: There's only 11 confirmed and 16 total maybe

Sanguin, "spin" is one thing but outright lies are another. Count again, as of today 2/5/07 AR1 reports for CC:

7-"Fact" confirmed not 11 as you said
8-"Stong" not confirmed
2-"Speculation" for 17 total rides, a couple of other speculations for alternate drivers.
Total of 17 cars assuming 1 at RS and 2 at Walker racing which more than likely will run 1 as noted for a total of 16.

Originally Posted by sanguin http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/aria/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=406427#post406427)
Rocketsports may have 2 also.

Again pure speculation, absolutely no basis in fact at this time. PG is quoted as wanting to run two cars only if full sponsorship is found - no documenation has been provided that indicates another full time sponsor has been found.


I think the only "Carl" you are going to be talking to is Carl Spackler *LOL*

[indycool]

Sandfly, you can't be serious about better time slots on TV making this abomination a better TV package.

Introducing the supposedly lower cost car did not draw any additional entries and even though supposedly lower cost, cost the teams (or somebody) money and provided an additional barrier to any "one series" motion that either The Amigos or TG might make.

New race markets where people would buy tickets, like San Jose, Las Vegas and Phoenix. First was the Pacific Rim strategy, but after Ansan and Zhuhai went awry and talks with the Japanese didn't even get off the drawing board, the focus became street racing. Then came the embarrassments at San Jose and Las Vegas, and now the focus is Europe. Time will tell if they hit it right on "new race markets" this time.

[sanguin]

Originally Posted by indycool http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/aria/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=420032#post420032)
You'll miss a lot of races if you wait till October. I can't get Mark C.'s site but I was told the IRL list he has is 19 cars right now. How many does he list for CC?

Posted by Sanguin: There's only 11 confirmed and 16 total maybe


Originally Posted by sanguin http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/aria/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=406427#post406427)
Rocketsports may have 2 also.

Again pure speculation, absolutely no basis in fact at this time. PG is quoted as wanting to run two cars only if full sponsorship is found - no documenation has been provided that indicates another full time sponsor has been found.


The 11 confirmed and 16 maybe was a response to IC about the IRL car count, I provided the thread from the appropriate forum.

As far as Rocketsports, ,I said "may", it was speculation, the same as everyone else's posts. It was said before PG said anything about it.

Thanks for stalking.

[indycool]

Pretty far out there in the ozone speculation on Rocketsports but guess anyone can speculate all they want. And Mark C.'s speculation on IRL was 19 in the works in some likely form.

[sanguin]

Pretty far out there in the ozone speculation on Rocketsports but guess anyone can speculate all they want. And Mark C.'s speculation on IRL was 19 in the works in some likely form.

PG did not rule it out, but we know more now ,so hindsight is a good thing, right?

In the works ,same as CC.

[SoCalPVguy]

Sanguin, the question as how many for CC (not IRL) read his question again - how the heck do you get 11 "confirmed" out of the following data from AR1 ???

7-"Fact" or confirmed not 11 as you said
8-"Strong" is not 'confirmed'
2-"Speculation" for 17 total rides, a couple of other speculations for alternate drivers give an assumption of 2 cars for Walker and 1 at RS.

Your rose colored glasses must be on too tight and are squeezing the addition function of your brain.

[sanguin]

Sanguin, the question as how many for CC (not IRL) read his question again - how the heck do you get 11 "confirmed" out of the following data from AR1 ???


Go back a page, here's what was posted-

Originally Posted by indycool

"I can't get Mark C.'s site but I was told the IRL list he has is 19 cars right now. How many does he list for CC?"

I posted this about the IRL and posted the appropriate forum where the info can be found.

"There's only 11 confirmed and 16 total maybe"

http://www.motorsportforums.com/foru...d.php?t=124336

I was not talking about CC.

[SoCalPVguy]

You are hopeless. The question by IC was direct "How many does he list for CC?"

IC did not ask about IRL. IC made a statement "I can't get Mark C.'s site but I was told the IRL list he has is 19 cars right now."

You answered a question about CC with an answer about the IRL as you so typically do.

[indycool]

SoCal, guess when someone doesn't want to comprehend, they can just throw their energy into it and make sure they don't. :)

[sanguin]

You are hopeless. The question by IC was direct "How many does he list for CC?"

IC did not ask about IRL. IC made a statement "I can't get Mark C.'s site but I was told the IRL list he has is 19 cars right now."

You answered a question about CC with an answer about the IRL as you so typically do.

I corrected his statement about the IRL,they do not have 19 cars. Why do you care?

[sanguin]

SoCal, guess when someone doesn't want to comprehend, they can just throw their energy into it and make sure they don't. :)

here you go-

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124336

[seppefan]

So confirmed at present are : Perera,PT,Wilson,Rahal,Figge,Servia,Bernoldi, total 7.

Guess we will have to wait and see for the balance.