Mercedes and RD clashing? [merged] [Archive]

mstillhere

5th January 2008, 03:11

trumperZ06

5th January 2008, 13:54

According to news published by the Spanish "AS.COM" site and other German newspapers, Mercedes is not too happy with RD and the way he manages McLaren.(http://www.as.com/motor/articulo/mercedes-medita-tomar-control-mclaren/dasmotfm1/20080104dasdaimot_7/Tes). Although we have heard these news before, according to As and the German newspapers, things seem to be deteriorating pretty fast with the result that Mercedes, which owns the 40% of McLaren, will just take over the entire British team pretty soon. It's interesting to point out, talking about the differences between RD and the Mercedes leadership, that the final decision to have an official presentation for the new MP4-23 was taken by Mercedes despite the initial opposition of RD who was planning for something much less visible.
IMO, I don't think Mercedes sees RD at the helm of the team for long. And of course, the lack of results and the incredible number of scandals involving the silver arrows has been only making things worse.

:dozey: Mad Max's Vendetta against Ron Dennis has put Mercedes in an awkward situation. When you are funding a team to market your products... any hint of the team's "cheating" has to be embarrassing.

Look at the difference between the FIA's (Ole Maxie's) witchhunt with McLaren last year.... compared to how lightly Renault was punished for the same infaction (having propietary information from another competitor).

Mercedes probably believe... they would be better served... if Ron Dennis were not involved. It's a shame that politics are likely to force a change at McLaren.

markabilly

5th January 2008, 13:59

mstillhere

5th January 2008, 17:48

markabilly

5th January 2008, 20:51

yes but that is the problem. Car makers in F1 are happy to be there when they think it is doing their image good and they are getting a profitable return somehow on their investment. Usually by winning and getting good pr (and free PR at someone elses' cost) that is perceived as helping them in selling their cars.

As a result they drop in and out of F1 whenever and however often as they think it benefits them--look at Ford motor company (aka jaguar); Renault, Honda, Toyota and so forth. The sole exception has been Ferrari (dating back to the tradition of Enzio who made street cars to generate revenue so he could race, while others raced to generate revenue in form of increased sales--- something of the effect, we sell cars to race while others race to sell cars...)

So do not expect Honda or Toyota to stick around through losing spells...no such thing as in sickness and health for them. And that only makes good business sense. But I have never thought it good long term for the sport, but whatever....

Not having a big unveiling where many reporters show up, and then Mecedes has its name mentioned in a good way across the world to help with their prestige and selling cars--in essence for no real increased costs beyond their already made investment in the team, their name gets flashed real heavy without having to buy ads.

Then RD thinks it is best to quietly sneak the new car in (and probably rightly so for reasons related solely to the world of racing) and some heavy duty marketing/accounting guru Merc executive says,"what? why are in F F---ing One, if we are not sucking in all the free good world wide PR we can get?" :mad:

And then some wisea$$ poster on this forum like markabilly or that other one pops off and says, "well why would Mercedes wish to have a big unveiling just to advertize the latest skills and engineering talent of Ferrari....." :D

gloomyDAY

5th January 2008, 22:52

HAHA! Great post. ^^^

RD should be at the helm of McLaren. He is still in it to win, but Mercedes and Ron don't see eye-to-eye. Who will take Ron's position if he is ousted?

markabilly

6th January 2008, 00:55

HAHA! Great post. ^^^

RD should be at the helm of McLaren. He is still in it to win, but Mercedes and Ron don't see eye-to-eye. Who will take Ron's position if he is ousted?
if mercedes takes over control probably Norbert Haug is according to some will be the one in some some fashion, if not then martin W. seems next in line....While i have bashed RD an awful lot, i do think he is into racing just to race, and wants to win, Period.

As a result of the team success and all, he has an awful lot of money, but if he wanted to make money as his sole motivation, i do not think he ever would have started racing, cause when you start, the money flies away, you end up dirt poor, and hope you have enough to eat tomorrow.....and if his replacement is a mercedes corporate type because mercedes gets 51% or more of MAc, then I think that Mac-mercedes will have all sorts of toyota and Honda issues, and thos problems are similar to just like Ferrari had after Enzio died.....those problems continued until the Todt, MS Brawn era, when the corporate types left the race team alone :(

mstillhere

6th January 2008, 03:35

HAHA! Great post. ^^^

RD should be at the helm of McLaren. He is still in it to win, but Mercedes and Ron don't see eye-to-eye. Who will take Ron's position if he is ousted?

I agree with Markability. Look, it's inevitable. Soor or late, RD would retire. It's not news that he is no Spring chicken and in my judgement his age has some thing to do with his recently poorly made decisions. Maybe he feels the pressure to retire, but before that happens, he wants to go with a bang and maybe that's waht him more inclined to take some extra chances in order to win something.

wmcot

7th January 2008, 08:19

...he wants to go with a bang ...

Maybe he should have left when they were using 2005 & 2006 spec engines! Those often made "quite a bang!" ;)

Rusty Spanner

8th January 2008, 13:25

After the whole Alonso / McLaren saga I have strong doubts over the Spanish medias impartiality in this.

The most telling aspect of the McLaren launch was that Bernie and Mercedes top brass where all present.

Knock-on

8th January 2008, 13:44

:dozey: Mad Max's Vendetta against Ron Dennis has put Mercedes in an awkward situation. When you are funding a team to market your products... any hint of the team's "cheating" has to be embarrassing.

Look at the difference between the FIA's (Ole Maxie's) witch-hunt with McLaren last year.... compared to how lightly Renault was punished for the same infaction (having propietary information from another competitor).

Mercedes probably believe... they would be better served... if Ron Dennis were not involved. It's a shame that politics are likely to force a change at McLaren.

I can see this possibly being Ron's swan-song. McLaren are likely to improve on their strength last year whereas there is some discontent at Ferrari. people looking over their shoulder and all that.

The Witch hunt has severely embarrassed the sport and Max has rather shot himself in the foot to the extent that his future is untenable IMHO.

I cannot see Renault mounting a credible threat apart from to other drivers safety with Alonso getting more and more reckless and teams like Honda will dramatically improve.

If McLaren take the titles this year, it will be a poke in the eye to Max and the crones and a fitting time to hand over the reins to Martin.

V12

8th January 2008, 14:16

WSRfan82

8th January 2008, 15:22

i ama ferrari fan but honestly i think RD should have full conrtol of you ask me as he owns 60% so im with RD on this one not mercades

ioan

8th January 2008, 17:31

i ama ferrari fan but honestly i think RD should have full conrtol of you ask me as he owns 60% so im with RD on this one not mercades

RD only owns 15%, while Mercedes owns 40% of McLaren.

8th January 2008, 17:36

RD only owns 15%, while Mercedes owns 40% of McLaren.

Yes, but the other shares are owned by Mansour Oijeh (15%), long-time partner of Dennis and a Bahraini company (I think they're Bahraini...could be UAE) who own 30% but who have a deal with Dennis & Oijeh not to vote against them.

In reality, therefore, Dennis is still in control of Mclaren.

trumperZ06

8th January 2008, 17:48

I can see this possibly being Ron's swan-song. McLaren are likely to improve on their strength last year whereas there is some discontent at Ferrari. people looking over their shoulder and all that.

+1... Ferrari "lucked" into winning both championships last year (2007). Nothing shows that they should significantly improve their car in 2008.

The Witch hunt has severely embarrassed the sport and Max has rather shot himself in the foot to the extent that his future is untenable IMHO.

+1 Max has managed to "eliminate" the US market from Formula 1...

much to the CHAGRIN of the F-1 teams.

I cannot see Renault mounting a credible threat apart from to other drivers safety with Alonso getting more and more reckless and teams like Honda will dramatically improve.

+1 Alonso is a "Loose Cannon" which makes it risky to have him representing your firm in front of the public.

If McLaren take the titles this year, it will be a poke in the eye to Max and the crones and a fitting time to hand over the reins to Martin.

:dozey: Hhmmm...

I wonder how many manufacturers such as... Honda, Toyota, Renault, Red Bull and others are looking for a "safe exit" from Formula 1. Consistantly LOSING... doesn't add luster to their image.

Welcome back Knocky... hope you have a... Happy 2008 !!!

;) Don't bet any $$$ MONEY $$$ on Button.

mstillhere

8th January 2008, 18:19

This is what the Guardian has to say about it:
http://sport.guardian.co.uk/motorsport/story/0,,2237060,00.html

wmcot

8th January 2008, 19:30

I think this is a sad indicator on the current state of F1 - In the past, if an engine manufacturer was PO'd with a team or the way it was run, or vice-versa they would simply take their services elsewhere - it would add a bit of variety year on year with different team-engine combos appearing, which would serve to shake up the pecking order a little. But now with the manufacturers wielding so much influence with the teams, even if they dont own them outright like Toyota, Honda, BMW, Renault etc, it seems like legendary figures of the sport like RD (I am no particular fan of him or his politically correct ways, but like him or loathe him thats what he is) are becoming increasingly expendable...

If Mercedes becomes a majority shareholder - will the McLaren name disappear?

The thing is that Mercedes probably has the money needed to take control of the team as the value certainly has to have taken a hit after last year's scandal(s). RD didn't do himself any favors by continuing to go on about the team's "integrity" even after it had been admitted that they used Ferrari data in their simulators. Either Ron is still convinced that all the people under him are totally honest or he has lost control of the team completely.

Osella

8th January 2008, 20:43

martin W. seems next in line....While i have bashed RD an awful lot, i do think he is into racing just to race, and wants to win, Period.

-From Gordon Murray (McLaren designer of Race/Road cars from 1986 to 2004)
"Ron had the foresight to realise that McLaren was little more than an F1 team, and he was determined to expand it"
-From Motor Sport January 2008 "Since 1988 he'd been talking to Dennis...about building the ultimate road car."
-From Max Mosley "He's passionate about McLaren finishing first and second in every race, which is his job, but it's not the same thing as being passionate about formula one and it's foolish to pretend that it is."

So I'm not that sure that assessment of Ron is entirely correct.
I think he wants it all and he certainly wasn't reluctant to let Merc buy in as, say, Frank Williams was with BMW, so I have no sympathy with him at all!

SGWilko

8th January 2008, 20:57

I think he wants it all and he certainly wasn't reluctant to let Merc buy in as, say, Frank Williams was with BMW, so I have no sympathy with him at all!

Somehow, I don't think BMW are in it for the longrun. I also think Frank had a hunch on this. Besides which, the ONLY true racers left in F1 are Frank and Patrick.

Real gentlemen in a sport where being a gentlemen is becoming extinct - how sad.

Osella

8th January 2008, 21:17

BMW actually have a history only behind Ferrari and Porsche in terms of manufacturer racing, and their approach is very much like that of Honda in the 80's; to race and to learn as well as just market the brand..
I don't see them leaving F1 while Thiessen is in racing, I just think Williams and Head didn't want to relinquish the control that McLaren/Dennis were willing to.. In the Gordon Murray interview he states that the McLaren-Mercedes SLR was designed as a rear-engined supercar, but Mercedes decided "we want one with a front engine" to fit with the rest of the brand, so their influence is really all-encompassing..
Just goes to show you should be careful what you wish for!
But McLaren sold themselves down this road many years ago; just how many 'gearbox failures' did they encounter in the Honda days...?

markabilly

8th January 2008, 23:08

-From Gordon Murray (McLaren designer of Race/Road cars from 1986 to 2004)
"Ron had the foresight to realise that McLaren was little more than an F1 team, and he was determined to expand it"
-From Motor Sport January 2008 "Since 1988 he'd been talking to Dennis...about building the ultimate road car."
-From Max Mosley "He's passionate about McLaren finishing first and second in every race, which is his job, but it's not the same thing as being passionate about formula one and it's foolish to pretend that it is."

So I'm not that sure that assessment of Ron is entirely correct.
I think he wants it all and he certainly wasn't reluctant to let Merc buy in as, say, Frank Williams was with BMW, so I have no sympathy with him at all!
My point was and remains that RD went into it to race to win and remains in it as such....while he may have sold his soul to the devil, cause he was tempted by money (who ain't??????), so what??

Unlike some corporate employee type, he did not get some MBA or engineering degree, join some massive corporation like Honda BMW or Mercedes because they made him the best offer, and then managed to get put in charge of the F1 corporate branch as some sort of management promotion because he managed to handle paperwork better than most, kiss but better.... improve revenue in the warranty department....or save costs in ad mailers...or be some other backstabbing "suit" clawing his way up the road to the top of the corporate heap..... :(

Those are the type of folks that can easily be running an F1 team when bought by a corporation that is in racing to sell cars, and those are the type of folks that have no qualms about firing people, closing factories or leaving F1 when they think the bottom line "profit" is not rolling in the door, regardless of tradition sportsmanship and so forth...

(Please Wilko, do not give me the Frank Williams "gentleman" stuff---Frank has struck me as the type that would not sell his soul to the devil, but would be very happy to sell your soul and any other souls he could beg, borrow or steal, if the devil would just make a sufficient offer!!!!)

markabilly

8th January 2008, 23:15

BMW actually have a history only behind Ferrari and Porsche in terms of manufacturer racing, and their approach is very much like that of Honda in the 80's; to race and to learn as well as just market the brand..
...?
History means nothing to the modern corporate type, hence Porsche has jumped in and out of racing, just like Honda has jumped in and out....Indeed, the hisory of Honda, as spotty and sporadic as it may be at times, dominants BMW and Porsche both in terms of number of years and effort in a number of different venues (including Formula One)......but it's behavior does demonstrate all too well what I was talking about: they race to sell cars, they do not sell cars so they can race---far from it, and it may not be much of a difference, but it is ALL the difference in the world......

Osella

8th January 2008, 23:38

History means nothing to the modern corporate type, hence Porsche has jumped in and out of racing......

Not quite in agreement here, Porsche have been involved as a factory presence in racing since the 50's, top-line involvement in sportscars from 1966 until 1999, F1 in the 60's and 80's and Production GT's in the 50's and 90's. Plus nowadays the RS Spyder project. They even pulled the wool over the board's eyes on several occasions just to keep on racing! So jumping in and out of top-line racing has not really been an issue, unlike, say Renault. But I think the biggest issue with Mercedes is the Corporate Image (capitals advised!).

This Image Control fits in with RD's philosophy, but unlike people like BMW, who are involved for the racing, the engineering and the development as much as the marketing, they need success to keep the wheels (literally) turning. I think Renault, Toyota, Mercedes and Honda would be the most likely to pull out if costs rise, or it's too difficult to win. (any look at CART shows three of those names doing just that!) Honda and BMW are the more likely to stay, but BMW are the most likely to be forced to pull out due to funding problems, a la Ford, but at least the people at Honda and BMW understand racing, or so it would seem.
Not sure if the same can be said for the others, apart from how much they can tie it in with road car sales and brand awareness...

ioan

9th January 2008, 11:23

Indeed, the hisory of Honda, as spotty and sporadic as it may be at times, dominants BMW and Porsche both in terms of number of years and effort in a number of different venues ...

Not sure about how Honda has a better historical racing involvement than Porsche or even BMW.

SGWilko

9th January 2008, 11:30

Not sure about how Honda has a better historical racing involvement than Porsche or even BMW.

In terms of F1, when I think Honda - I recall:-

Williams,
Lotus,
McLaren,
Footwork,
Jordan,
BAR,
And now (as in the 60's), their own team.

For BMW, I can oly think of Brabham. With Porsche, all I recall is McLaren (TAG).

I would hazard a guess that, as Engine partner, Honda has more titles and possibly more history.

ICBW of course........

ArrowsFA1

9th January 2008, 12:22

Not sure about how Honda has a better historical racing involvement than Porsche or even BMW.
Looking at each as entrants, rather than engine suppliers, Honda first entered F1 in 1964, BMW in 1952, and Porsche in 1957 so they've all been around in some shape or form for some time, with variable degrees of success.

wedge

9th January 2008, 13:06

Somehow, I don't think BMW are in it for the longrun. I also think Frank had a hunch on this. Besides which, the ONLY true racers left in F1 are Frank and Patrick.

Real gentlemen in a sport where being a gentlemen is becoming extinct - how sad.

BMW will be in F1 for quite a while. Similar F1-engine technology are seen in the M-series models which gives those cars its appeal and popularity.

Williams is probably last of the independents - BMW wanted more chassis input, indeed they sent guys out specifically to interfere with Williams design! Hence the nasty fall out that occured in 2005 and Gerhard Berger left BMW (compromised friendship with Frank? or learnt all there is to learn about management?)

To say Frank is last of the gentleman in this sport is an exaggeration! He likes to make himself look good infront of the press by saying the team comes first and all drivers are prima-donnas and yet this is the same Frank who signed Alain Prost behind Mansell's back and signed H-H Frentzen behind Damon Hill's back! Where is the integrity in that, I ask you!

markabilly

9th January 2008, 13:07

I did not say Honda had a "better" historical involvement, only that they have had far more involvement in terms of quanitity regardless of quality, (although some might argue about the whose quality was "better"--but that was not my point). Indeed, if you wish to count Motorcyles and all forms of motorsports, Honda wins easy

My point is that all the car manufacturers except Ferrari, have dropped in and out of Formula One (as well as all other types of motor sports) at the whim of corporate executive types, whenever their business needs were perceived as deeming it worthy.

In they come and out they go without the committment of a Williams, Lotus, Mac or even Ferrari as shown by a long term continual presence.

It was one thing when some team crashes and burns because it can not cut it due to lack of money---it is another when a car manafacturer runs off like Toyota, Renault or whoever because corporate interests deem it no longer worthy. They are treating racing as an advertizing venue for marketing its street products and is the sole purpose for its involvement.
Indeed, if they had their way, that is all it would be.

Someday it may well be that those at Fiat will be engaging in this behavior as well.

But my point remains: they race to sell cars, they do not sell cars so they can race---far from it, and it may not be much of a difference, but it is ALL the difference in the world......

9th January 2008, 13:11

he certainly wasn't reluctant to let Merc buy in as, say, Frank Williams was with BMW, so I have no sympathy with him at all!

Strangely enough, I do have some sympathy.

Had Ron not accepted the Mercedes buy-in, given the way that F1 has become manufacturer-centred, then Mclaren would have been in just the same situation that Williams found themselves in with BMW and, to some degree, when Williams had Renault engines.

Both BMW & Renault came to the conclusion that they were better off being outright F1 manufacturers. Renault were on the record as saying that for all the victories achieved as engine-suppliers, they did not gain as much publicity being just a supplier as they did/do as a manufacturer.

Had Ron refused the Mercedes buy-in, there would have been nothing to stop Mercedes from eventually leaving and setting up as a manufacturer on their own. They had, after all, already had a relationship with Sauber which they could have rekindled (admittedly Mercedes had decided that Sauber weren't up to the job in 1994, but by 2005 BMW obviously felt that Sauber was a viable option so it's reasonable to assume that things at Sauber had developed since 95 and that they would have been an option for Mercedes).

Not having a firm partnership from Mercedes in terms of co-ownership could easily have seen Mclaren having to run Cosworth engines a la Williams.

Yes, because of their share-holding there was always the possibility for Mercedes to buy Ron out, but at least that way he'd be in the money, but without Mercedes owning a part of the company, both the competitive ability and the value of the Mclaren company would most probably be a whole lot less.

ArrowsFA1

9th January 2008, 13:28

...this is the same Frank who signed Alain Prost behind Mansell's back and signed H-H Frentzen behind Damon Hill's back! Where is the integrity in that, I ask you!
As the team owner it was his right to sign whoever he chose for Williams, and there was more to each of those circumstances than FW simply going behind someone's back.

9th January 2008, 13:36

As the team owner it was his right to sign whoever he chose for Williams, and there was more to each of those circumstances than FW simply going behind someone's back.

I agree totally.

It was a no-brainer to sign Prost. Or, put another way, only someone with limited brain cells would have been surprised by Prost being signed.

Mind you, that alone would explain why Mansell was so surprised and upset by it.

As far as I can recall, neither Mansell or Hill had contracts beyond the end of the respective years anyway, so it wasn't a case of Prost & Frentzen being pushed into the seats that belonged to someone else.

SGWilko

9th January 2008, 13:39

this is the same Frank who signed Alain Prost behind Mansell's back and signed H-H Frentzen behind Damon Hill's back! Where is the integrity in that, I ask you!

Do me a favour, Mansell was making all kinds of demands on Frank - hotel rooms etc. Now, don't get me wrong, I like our Nige in a car, but he's no goody two shoes out of it. Besides, when things were not going his way at Ferrari, his first instinct was to throw in the towel.

As for Damon, well, nice guy, but he successfully snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in 94 & 95, so Frank was just looking after his team.

At least Frank didn't throw them out on their ear (a la EJ with HHF)

Garry Walker

9th January 2008, 13:43

As the team owner it was his right to sign whoever he chose for Williams, and there was more to each of those circumstances than FW simply going behind someone's back.

Wedge is living in a fantasy world and expects the drivers to be treated like royality.

ioan

9th January 2008, 16:10

... (admittedly Mercedes had decided that Sauber weren't up to the job in 1994, but by 2005 BMW obviously felt that Sauber was a viable option so it's reasonable to assume that things at Sauber had developed since 95 and that they would have been an option for Mercedes).

Sauber did drew profit form their close relationship with Ferrari and ranked as high as 4th in the championship at one moment.
Make no mistake BMW chose Sauber not only because he agreed to sale to them but also because they got access to valuable information coming from the team that was continuously beating the field since '99.

SGWilko

9th January 2008, 16:27

Sauber did drew profit form their close relationship with Ferrari and ranked as high as 4th in the championship at one moment.
Make no mistake BMW chose Sauber not only because he agreed to sale to them but also because they got access to valuable information coming from the team that was continuously beating the field since '99.

I read that to mean that Sauber is passing on info Ferrari to BMW is that right? Or do you mean Sauber were beating the field since '99? :confused:

ioan

9th January 2008, 16:34

I read that to mean that Sauber is passing on info Ferrari to BMW is that right? Or do you mean Sauber were beating the field since '99? :confused:

BMW bought the team that had the most input from Ferrari.
I think you were just trying to confuse yourself! :p :

SGWilko

9th January 2008, 16:38

BMW bought the team that had the most input from Ferrari.

Ferrari supplied engines didn't they? Surely you are not suggesting BMW have benefitted from Ferrari info?

Why, that's, well, you know, eerm, spying by proxy isn't it? :laugh:

9th January 2008, 17:05

Sauber did drew profit form their close relationship with Ferrari and ranked as high as 4th in the championship at one moment.
Make no mistake BMW chose Sauber not only because he agreed to sale to them but also because they got access to valuable information coming from the team that was continuously beating the field since '99.

Well, actually, what I meant was that the whole Sauber team infrastructure and its Hinwil base had been transformed since 1995 by continous investment and experience, making it a more attractive proposition than it had been in 1994 when Mercedes left.

Malbec

9th January 2008, 18:33

mercedes is doing f1 as a cost of business associated with advertizing; any good PR is good for Mercedes, but they make their money selling cars not racing. To the extent "racing" sells their cars, great. To the extent, it makes them look bod, weeelll oooppps

DR is in the business for revenue and profit, and to race. Winning is of extreme importance to generate that 100 million dollars from the "pot" of WCC

Not always the same goals for Mercedes and Mac.

This is something thats rather worrying about F1.

If you put your advertising money in any other format its low risk. The worst that can happen is that noone bothers to look at your ads.

F1 is pretty risky. Firstly you need to invest a LOT of money. Secondly despite investing that money you may not win. If you don't you look stupid. Thirdly if you want to win you really need to partner up with an existing F1 team of some sort, even Toyota decided to modify and buy the motorsport company that did rallying for them to enter F1.

Problem with partnering up with someone else like McLaren is that they like to do things their own way and often have quite deep seated political differences with the guys who run the sport. And as we've seen with McLaren and BAR reputations can be ruined quickly via a concerted campaign from the FIA. The manufacturers then are really locked on-board for a pretty unpleasant ride they have little part in.

Is there anything really different about the way Mercedes or Honda approach the sport compared to Renault or BMW? Yet the former have had their reputations publicly tarnished while the latter two haven't.

Its working out as a bit of a gamble for the manufacturers isn't it? At some point people may look at Mercedes and Honda and just decide that entering F1 isn't worth it not because the marketing isn't good enough but because they can't afford to risk their reputation because of some secret longstanding feud between the team they partner up with and the FIA.

Malbec

9th January 2008, 18:39

History means nothing to the modern corporate type, hence Porsche has jumped in and out of racing, just like Honda has jumped in and out....Indeed, the hisory of Honda, as spotty and sporadic as it may be at times, dominants BMW and Porsche both in terms of number of years and effort in a number of different venues (including Formula One)......but it's behavior does demonstrate all too well what I was talking about: they race to sell cars, they do not sell cars so they can race---far from it, and it may not be much of a difference, but it is ALL the difference in the world......

Honda is an interesting case though.

Most of the board of directors at the moment comes from the motorsport side of the company. Only one of their CEOs was a beancounter. The rest came from...motorsport.

Right now their CEO demands that he gives Honda's F1 car and MotoGP a go every year. You can't say that of any other firm.

That said, even with a company like that marketing and affordability is still a consideration when it comes to racing. Its less noticeable in F1 but it certainly is for their involvement in IRL which is pure 100% marketing.

mstillhere

17th January 2008, 01:44

Hi everybody,
I thought that this topic had disappeared from the media but it just came back (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/16012008/3/mercedes-set-control-mclaren-report.html, to name one).
According to several news media, Mercedes has now bought the majority of McLaren stocks, becoming this way the only owner of the company. Although, Merceds refuses to confirm this news, for many experts its just a matter of time before they (Mercedes) will make the news public. One more thing: as you can read, that could also mean the end of RD as the McLaren team ownership and career in F1 :) .

janneppi

17th January 2008, 06:22

Same was reported in Turun Sanomat as well, they predicted it will be announced just before the season kicks in.

mstillhere

17th January 2008, 15:08

Same was reported in Turun Sanomat as well, they predicted it will be announced just before the season kicks in.

Well, it looks like the big motivator was that Mercedes did not like at all how RD dealt with the spy scandal. Mercedes feels that they suffered a big blow to their image, they feel that RD is not able to manage his own team, and therefore they want to be in charge now. That's also explaining why Mercedes wanted to hold the new McLaren presentation at the Mercedes museum, in the heart of the German prestigeous brand.
Wow, this is huge.

SGWilko

17th January 2008, 15:28

Well, it looks like the big motivator was that Mercedes did not like at all how RD dealt with the spy scandal. Mercedes feels that they suffered a big blow to their image, they feel that RD is not able to manage his own team, and therefore they want to be in charge now. That's also explaining why Mercedes wanted to hold the new McLaren presentation at the Mercedes museum, in the heart of the German prestigeous brand.
Wow, this is huge.

I think you'd call it cutting out the dead wood......

ArrowsFA1

17th January 2008, 15:35

Wow, this is huge.
Even if your assumptions are correct the story is not particularly earth shattering given that the possibility of Mercedes-Benz taking a greater stake in the team, and the question of RD's retirement, have been around for some time (Aug '06 (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/54147) at least).

mstillhere

17th January 2008, 16:38

Even if your assumptions are correct the story is not particularly earth shattering

Although I know what you mean, these are not really MY assomptions. That have been published by several news media (who have better contacts than I do, unfortunately... :) . And YES, IMO, this story is particularly news shattering. I mean how often do you hear about a team owner being bought out by its own engine supplier, and being kidded out by it? And of course when it comes down to a team owner like RD, (WOW!! so much F1 history involved here) we might see him taking an early retiremnent although until a couple of weeks ago RD himself stated that he had no intention to retire ( I know, it is not official yet). The thing is that nobody knows in reality the exact extent of the commercial and prestige damage suffered by both Mercedes and McLaren. But if we were to judge by the action taken by Mercedes, it might be pretty substantial. It might be even bigger than the fine imposed by the FIA. To have an idea about how tense the situation is at McLaren's, let me just mention what I read on some Italian newsmedia. For example, I read, it is interesting to know that the only reason why McLaren was not discualified for 2008 was only because Mercedes pulled some strings. Now, that speaks for itself. I think.

janneppi

17th January 2008, 17:15

The thing is that nobody knows in reality the exact extent of the commercial and prestige damage suffered by both Mercedes and McLaren. But if we were to judge by the action taken by Mercedes, it might be pretty substantial. It might be even bigger than the fine imposed by the FIA. To have an idea about how tense the situation is at McLaren's, let me just mention what I read on some Italian newsmedia.
For example, I read, it is interesting to know that the only reason why McLaren was not discualified for 2008 was only because Mercedes pulled some strings. Now, that speaks for itself. I think.
You meant to write allegedly only because Mercedes pulled some strings. didn't you? :)
It speaks for itself indeed, about the apparently bad relationship between this anynomoys Italian paper and the McLaren team. ;)
It might be true though, one could also speculate how much the ECU deal with FIA affected that decision.

17th January 2008, 17:28

It speaks for itself indeed, about the apparently bad relationship between this anynomoys Italian paper and the McLaren team.

I get the feeling that it's not the Italian press that is the problem for Mercedes.....Italian newspapers are never going to be nice to the Scuderia's rivals.

It's everywhere else in the world (with the exception of the Mclaren weekly gazette in-house magazine known as Autosport) that is the problem for Mercedes.

Bad press is bad press.

mstillhere

17th January 2008, 17:36

You meant to write allegedly only because Mercedes pulled some strings. didn't you? :)
It speaks for itself indeed, about the apparently bad relationship between this anynomoys Italian paper and the McLaren team. ;)
It might be true though, one could also speculate how much the ECU deal with FIA affected that decision.

Yes, so far it has been a speculation, although Mercedes is expected to make an announcement in this regard before the beginning of the new F1 season in March. As far as the Italian (but not only) newpapers I refer to, I can definetely and easily copy, paste and add their web sites to my messages. The reason why I have not is only because I dont know how many of this site members would be able to read and understand Italian. I am sure that's the same reason that's kept you from adding the sites of the Finnish newspapers.

trumperZ06

17th January 2008, 17:39

:dozey: Perish the thought...

Mad Max may have finally driven Ron Dennis out of Formula 1.

:( Mercedes may well be protecting their brand name and reputation by gaining control of McLaren.

Mad Max's personal Vendetta against Ron Dennis likely forced Mercedes into aquiring control.

Max and Ron had reached a point where...
for the interest of the TEAM (ie. Mercedes),
it's probably best for Ron to leave.

Osella

18th January 2008, 19:04

with the exception of the Mclaren weekly gazette in-house magazine known as Autosport.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Too true, sadly...

ArrowsFA1

19th January 2008, 09:19

Yes, so far it has been a speculation...
'Nuff said :cool:

TMorel

19th January 2008, 09:56

Actually I'm really sad about this.

I despise RD but I was hoping he'd get a season or two to change his ways and turn things around.

Also, great, another manufacturer team. Sorry, but I don't believe they have the same desire to stay when the going gets tough as McLaren or Williams etc would.
Also, if I'm honest, a bit of the romance goes when they become a manufacture team.

mstillhere

26th February 2008, 14:27

New update. According to Marca (http://www.marca.com/edicion/marca/motor/formula1/es/desarrollo/1094011.html), Dennis is on his way out.
The title says: Mercedes will throw out Dennis from his managing position.
Also: "la decisión está tomada y será hecha pública en un comunicado, primero por el propio Dennis y más tarde confirmada por Mercedes en los próximos días."
Which means:"the decision is taken and it will be made public in a press release first by Dennis himself and later it will be confirmed by Mercedes in the following days".

Tazio

27th February 2008, 16:07

SGWilko

27th February 2008, 16:18

!

?

FIA

27th February 2008, 18:40

Am I missing something here.

BenRoethig

27th February 2008, 18:55

They should have fired him years ago.

F1boat

27th February 2008, 19:33

This is info by "Marca", to me this is not the most reliable source.

NoahsGirl

27th February 2008, 20:31

Should this be the case, RD will not be remembered for the team that nearly won all races in a season - he will be remembered as a "cheat" and the whole Alonso debacle. IMO that is completely unjustified. I may not have agreed with every decision he made (1998 Oz GP), but at least he was a racer and loved racing.

CNR

27th February 2008, 20:58

http://www.intersportswire.com/content/view/325/

Rumour has started to circulate in the MotorSport world that Ron Dennis has been bumped off the top at McLaren.
It seems that Mercedes may have ‘asked’ Dennis to step down, with Martin Whitmarsh taking over the day to day running of the Woking team.
This would be a sad day for the team, and the sport in general, as Dennis, although having his faults, is a good part of the sport.
Dennis has run McLaren since the early 1980’s, since then the team has won 9 Drivers and 7 Constructors titles. So he obviously knows how to get the team motivated.
There is also the issue of Lewis Hamilton to consider if the news is true. It has been noted in the past that Lewis calles Ron Dennis a 'Father Figure' and has recently signed an extension to his McLaren contract. How would it affect him, if Ron has got to go? It would certainly affect his mental preparation for the coming season.
Time will tell if the rumour is true, but we will keep you updated.

Valve Bounce

28th February 2008, 01:22

Let me know when it is reported in The Bild.

ArrowsFA1

28th February 2008, 08:45

http://www.intersportswire.com/content/view/325/
Rumour has started to circulate in the MotorSport world...It seems that Mercedes may have...if the news is true...Time will tell if the rumour is true
No confirmation as yet. A bit like the Honda find glitch in ECU rumour. It seems like McLaren are fair game for this kind of "fictiournalism" at present :dozey:

CNR

28th February 2008, 10:18

http://www.wheels24.co.za/Wheels24/NewsPics/0,,1369-1375_2279010,00.html

Spokespeople for both McLaren and engine partner Mercedes-Benz have denied reports that team boss Ron Dennis has been fired.
A report in the Spanish press this week said Martin Whitmarsh was set to take over the British veteran's nearly three-decade reign because Mercedes, with a 40% team stake, was angered about Dennis' handling of the spying scandal.
"The reports are pure speculation," a Mercedes spokesman is quoted as saying by the German broadcaster RTL.
"The fact is, the well-known status-quo remains, and this means an unchanged management team," he added.
A McLaren spokesperson replied similarly, while F1 chief executive Bernie Ecclestone also suggested that the rumours of Dennis 'quitting' or being 'fired' are wide of the mark. "He's not an employee," Bernie told the Mirror. "He's a shareholder and he had internal support from other shareholders."

ArrowsFA1

28th February 2008, 12:38

So, another (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124774) unfounded rumour targeting McLaren bites the dust :erm:

Next... :p :

markabilly

28th February 2008, 13:20

Just like the vote of confidence given a coach right before he gets fired? Or Just wishful thinking?

28th February 2008, 14:56

So, another (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124774) unfounded rumour targeting McLaren bites the dust :erm:

Next... :p :

Ok, since you asked for it..........

Ron Dennis has threatened to drown a litter of fluffy kittens, in a sack with a brick in it, in the man-made lake in front of the Paragon Centre if his team is not allowed to cheat this year.

Actually, given the depths that Mclaren went to last year, that could well be true!

SGWilko

28th February 2008, 15:58

Ok, since you asked for it..........

Ron Dennis has threatened to drown a litter of fluffy kittens, in a sack with a brick in it, in the man-made lake in front of the Paragon Centre if his team is not allowed to cheat this year.

Actually, given the depths that Mclaren went to last year, that could well be true!

Strewth, the 5h1t the Spanish media print these days is appalling!!!

Bagwan

28th February 2008, 17:43

Ok, since you asked for it..........

Ron Dennis has threatened to drown a litter of fluffy kittens, in a sack with a brick in it, in the man-made lake in front of the Paragon Centre if his team is not allowed to cheat this year.

Actually, given the depths that Mclaren went to last year, that could well be true!

Ron Dennis has been quoted , saying " That is categorically untrue , as McLaren protocol insists that all those employed must be well groomed , and certainly not 'fluffy' " .

ioan

28th February 2008, 23:02

Ron Dennis has been quoted , saying " That is categorically untrue , as McLaren protocol insists that all those employed must be well groomed , and certainly not 'fluffy' " .

:rotflmao:

Osella

28th February 2008, 23:11

"The reports are pure speculation," a Mercedes spokesman is quoted as saying...

Well, that pretty much confirms it then! It's like the 'vote of confidence' in a football manager or F1 driver. The more times things are denied, the more likely it seems to be they turn out true!

wmcot

29th February 2008, 06:38

Ron Dennis has been quoted , saying " That is categorically untrue , as McLaren protocol insists that all those employed must be well groomed , and certainly not 'fluffy' " .

What do you call dead kittens with sideburns???

McKittens! ;)

CNR

29th February 2008, 07:09

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_3212599,00.html

??????

It has already been suggested that Mercedes have asked team boss Dennis to step down as they attempt to lessen the damage done by the spy scandal.

janneppi

29th February 2008, 07:22

It is also suggested(by me) that Force India will buy Ron Dennis's kidneys and use them as ballast in the second race of the season.

Expect that to start circulating as a fact next week once media picks it up as they have nothing better to make up. ;)

SGWilko

29th February 2008, 09:24

AJP

29th February 2008, 12:01

looks like he is staying put..

http://sportal.com.au/motorsport-news-display/mclaren-boss-safe-in-role-44044

markabilly

29th February 2008, 12:40

As I said in this thread much much earlier, Mercedes will not be doing it in such a manner to look like an admission of guilt, and it is still too early...and in any event must look as graceful as possible and routine as well...

Garry Walker

29th February 2008, 14:16

If Whitmarsh denies it, it must be true.

Tazio

29th February 2008, 14:23

Not sacked, embattled Dennis may 'step away'
http://www.f1complete.com/content/view/7806/900/
Kids can you say Euphemism?

BenRoethig

29th February 2008, 14:26

Not sacked, embattled Dennis may 'step away'
http://www.f1complete.com/content/view/7806/900/
Kids can you say Euphemism?

Step away means "you're fired but we'll let you save face a little bit".

ArrowsFA1

29th February 2008, 14:38

Not sacked, embattled Dennis may 'step away'
http://www.f1complete.com/content/view/7806/900/
Kids can you say Euphemism?
The same story just with a different slant. Nothing new.

Tazio

29th February 2008, 14:52

Did I imply it was new?^^^

ArrowsFA1

29th February 2008, 15:08

Did I imply it was new?^^^
Not at all. Mine was just an observation based on the content of the link.

Tazio

29th February 2008, 16:33

Not at all. Mine was just an observation based on the content of the link.
Got ya' chief Peace! ;)

markabilly

29th February 2008, 22:00

:dozey:
If Whitmarsh denies it, it must be true.
:dozey:

You mean like if Mac says it ain't then it must be, sort of like the " not appeal not" of the WDC to give to LH the WDC, but that was not an appeal but only a rule clarification attempt plus a desire to see if global warming was affecting how cold that the fuel can get................ :beer:

Tazio

2nd March 2008, 02:52

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article3467604.ece
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article3466623.ece
More innuendo?

markabilly

2nd March 2008, 13:51

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article3467604.ece
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article3466623.ece
More innuendo?
Just as I predicted many months ago....alas, tis the corporate way....

ArrowsFA1

2nd March 2008, 16:08

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article3467604.ece
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article3466623.ece
More innuendo?
Well, he's inevitably going to retire at some point so the stories will eventually be seen to be right :p : All that's left is who claims credit for the "scoop".

mstillhere

2nd March 2008, 16:19

Well, he's inevitably going to retire at some point so the stories will eventually be seen to be right :p : All that's left is who claims credit for the "scoop".

WOW!!! Actually the news was true? This "rumor" was started by Marca some time ago. And although someone on this forum said tha Marca was not a reliable source (it's like Bild), despite last week's reassurance from McLaren that RD were to stay at his post the Times is actually confirming this news? WOW, I am actually shocked!! Blown away!! I too had my doubts that the news was not being reported by other news outlets but boy I guess Marca has VERY reliable sources (De la Rosa?). Well, glad to see that I started a thread that seemed to be poitless for a while (a long while) and that instead turned out to be true.
So according to you, Arrows, the fact that RD is stepping down has nothing to do with the scandal? It's just pure coincidence? I bet you if you were to ask RD when he was planning to retire the answer would have been: NEVER.
Racing is in his blood. He is retiring only because what happend with the scandal. No question about it!!

mstillhere

2nd March 2008, 16:30

Now the news is starting to get around:
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/02032008/58/dennis-quit-week-report.html

Tazio

2nd March 2008, 16:34

All that's left is who claims credit for the "scoop".
Thank you I'll take it! :)
Did you read the article associated with the second link?
Highly complimentary of Ron!
A fair and balanced post old friend!
Cheers

ArrowsFA1

2nd March 2008, 16:39

So according to you, Arrows, the fact that RD is stepping down has nothing to do with the scandal? It's just pure coincidence? I bet you if you were to ask RD when he was planning to retire the answer would have been: NEVER.
Racing is in his blood. He is retiring only because what happend with the scandal. No question about it!!
Where did I say anything about why he was retiring? I was just commenting on the way the media work :)

RD was talking about not being McLaren team principal 18mths ago (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/54147). Then he said "In five years' time I will not be the team principal, that is for sure", so we can assume from that he was already planning to spend less time in F1.

You're right though; if the reports are correct then it seems exceedingly likely that Spygate, and its' fallout, is the the main reason.

markabilly

2nd March 2008, 16:45

Thank you I'll take it! :)
Did you read the article associated with the second link?
Highly complimentary of Ron!
A fair and balanced post old friend!
Cheers

credit for what I predicted long before you you scooper dude :D

Where did I say anything about why he was retiring? I was just commenting on the way the media work :)

You're right though; if the reports are correct then it seems exceedingly likely that Spygate, and its' fallout, is the reason.

That is what happens as I mentioned in an old thread as the corporate way, where there are manufacturers who are in racing to sell street cars and enhance their perception in the marketplace, rather than those who sell cars so that they can afford to race

Tazio

2nd March 2008, 17:19

credit for what I predicted long before you you scooper dude :D Don't get me started Mark! :( !
We all know you are "The Straw that Stirs the Drink"!...................................Of Kool-aid!! :D :D :D

Hawkmoon

2nd March 2008, 21:21

Ol' Ron can't retire! Who else am I going to hate? Sports are much more fun when you have a personal "Anti-Christ" to despise.

Oh well. I suppose there's always Hamilton. :(

wmcot

3rd March 2008, 05:55

WOW!!! Actually the news was true? This "rumor" was started by Marca some time ago. And although someone on this forum said tha Marca was not a reliable source

How does the saying go, "Even a blind pig occasionally finds a truffle..." ;)

Tazio

3rd March 2008, 06:19

How does the saying go, "Even a blind pig occasionally finds a truffle..." ;) Or........
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while!

wmcot

3rd March 2008, 06:24

Or........
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while!

Sometimes two! :)

mstillhere

3rd March 2008, 06:38

Sometimes two! :)

Shopenauer (spelling?) is my guide. Even if the news orinally was a little shaky I started thinking intensily that it was true because I wanted it to be true. The next thing you know....

ArrowsFA1

3rd March 2008, 08:28

Sometimes two! :)
Indeed; F1 will be a different place without Dennis & Todt ;)

jens

3rd March 2008, 12:35

I have to admit that I would miss Ron. Whatever it was with that last year's spying scandale, he is after all a legend and has achieved a lot in F1. He has become synonymous with McLaren - after his leaving it would for some time surely feel like something is missing in McLaren... even in F1.

markabilly

3rd March 2008, 13:25

Shopenauer (spelling?) is my guide. Even if the news orinally was a little shaky I started thinking intensily that it was true because I wanted it to be true. The next thing you know....
No it was true cause Mercedes wanted it to be true.....while not much of a fan of RD, OTOH, it bodes not well for the sport when the staid world of corporate profits for sales becomes the guiding force.

If Rd needed to bite the dust, then let it be because he could not field a competitive team, not cause of the corporate image of some souless corporation

Big Ben

3rd March 2008, 13:31

No it was true cause Mercedes wanted it to be true.....while not much of a fan of RD, OTOH, it bodes not well for the sport when the staid world of corporate profits for sales becomes the guiding force.

If Rd needed to bite the dust, then let it be because he could not field a competitive team, not cause of the corporate image of some souless corporation

I just love this communist propaganda... to hell with these bloody corporations. Power to the people!

SGWilko

3rd March 2008, 13:37

ArrowsFA1

3rd March 2008, 14:13

Is Ron stepping down, or stepping aside to concentrate on other areas of the McLaren F1 business?
According to Autosport (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65439):
Ron Dennis is likely to hand over the role of McLaren team principal to F1 CEO Martin Whitmarsh before the end of this month...although Dennis is planning to change his role within McLaren, he has not yet settled on exactly when that will be.

trumperZ06

3rd March 2008, 18:17

:dozey: Ron Dennis's demise.... reminds one of the SNAFU surrounding the
U S Grand Prix... which resulted in Michelin's exit and the loss of a Formula One race in the U S Marketplace.

Ron Dennis has earned his place in F-1, only to see his legacy ruined by the manipulations of Max Mosey !!!

Afer last year's vendictive witchhunt by Mad Max, this certainly shouldn't catch anyone by surprise... Ron Dennis being forced out of McLaren.

Mercedes is only doing... what is Best for Mercedes !!!

3rd March 2008, 18:55

Ron Dennis has earned his place in F-1, only to see his legacy ruined by the manipulations of Max Mosey !!!

Afer last year's vendictive witchhunt by Mad Max, this certainly shouldn't catch anyone by surprise... Ron Dennis being forced out of McLaren.

Hold on, Mclaren were 'bang to rights' and Mosley certainly didn't 'manipulate' either Stepney or Mclaren into doing what they did.

Fact is that Ron 'Integrity' Dennis was in charge of , or at least was supposed to be, of the company that has was found guilty of the biggest scandal in F1 history.

There is only one person truly responsible for Dennis's retirement/removal.....and that's Mr Ron Dennis.

mstillhere

3rd March 2008, 20:24

There is only one person truly responsible for Dennis's retirement/removal.....and that's Mr Ron Dennis.

Absolutely!!!

trumperZ06

3rd March 2008, 21:02

Hold on, Mclaren were 'bang to rights' and Mosley certainly didn't 'manipulate' either Stepney or Mclaren into doing what they did.

Fact is that Ron 'Integrity' Dennis was in charge of , or at least was supposed to be, of the company that has was found guilty of the biggest scandal in F1 history.

There is only one person truly responsible for Dennis's retirement/removal.....and that's Mr Ron Dennis.

:p : Simplistic Nonsense... Ron Dennis's reputation has been "tarnished"...

by a mean-spirited, vendictive, morally bankrupt individual.

Mad Max's... Vendictive action... ?

One only has to look at the way the investigation and punishment was handed down by the FIA in 2007 to McLaren vs. Renault...

for the same infringements !!!

:dozey: Now, go back and review Mad Max's actions that resulted in the FIAsco at Indy...
which has since seen both Michelin and the USA no longer involved in Formula One.

:rolleyes: Mad Max's vendictive witchhunts, both in attacking Ron Dennis through McLaren as well as his personal attack on Jackie Stewart... will define the ignoble reputation of this man for years to come.

Thankfully, he didn't carry out his threat to sanction withdrawing all FIA involvement & support, here in the States.

Although on second thought... maybe we would be better served if he had carried out his "Threat" !!!

:s mokin: Trumper

Osella

3rd March 2008, 21:30

One only has to look at the way the investigation and punishment was handed down by the FIA in 2007 to McLaren vs. Renault...

for the same infringements !!!

Please people, please, please, please try and remember that the 'punishment' handed out to both teams was The Same and it was Nothing!!..

When McLaren were found guilty of further transgressions than Renault, wider dissemination of another team's information and, according to the FIA wilful misleading of the FIA's investigation (though it must be said, not by Ron at that point), that is when the punishments differed.

trumperZ06

4th March 2008, 00:46

Please people, please, please, please try and remember that the 'punishment' handed out to both teams was The Same and it was Nothing!!..

When McLaren were found guilty of further transgressions than Renault, wider dissemination of another team's information and, according to the FIA wilful misleading of the FIA's investigation (though it must be said, not by Ron at that point), that is when the punishments differed.

:dozey: Hhmmm... not Quite the total picture !!!

It was after Ron Dennis went to Mad Max and told him about Alonso's blackmail attempt (and all that involved), that futher investigation was instigated. Remember, Dennis brought the info to the FIA that led to additional evidence that then resulted in additional punishment.

:rolleyes: When Renasult Threatened the FIA with their withdrawal from Formula One...

If they were handed a simular $100 Million fine, the FIA ceased their investigation. Even though the FIA was aware that McLaren's technical information had been up-loaded to Renault's computers.

:s mokin: Trumper

grantb4

4th March 2008, 05:02

If Rd needed to bite the dust, then let it be because he could not field a competitive team, not cause of the corporate image of some souless corporation

Yeah what markabilly said. There is almost no character left in F1. It's become a procession of robots and faceless corporations. The only guy left that gives credible insight is Frank Williams and he doesn't talk that much unfortunately. Flavio is marginally interesting but he only half cares about F1 anyway -- he's got eyes for too many other things. Ron Dennis and Frank Williams are the last "good men" in the race.

Tazio

4th March 2008, 06:03

Yeah what markabilly said. There is almost no character left in F1. It's become a procession of robots and faceless corporations. The only guy left that gives credible insight is Frank Williams and he doesn't talk that much unfortunately. Flavio is marginally interesting but he only half cares about F1 anyway -- he's got eyes for too many other things. Ron Dennis and Frank Williams are the last "good men" in the race.
Flavio is an interesting character! I'd respect him a lot more if him , and Bernie weren't so tight!
Those two are Corporate Greed Inc!

wmcot

4th March 2008, 06:15

Is Ron stepping down, or stepping aside to concentrate on other areas of the McLaren F1 business?

Being as how Ron and Hammy are close, how does this affect things, if it is merely a step to the side, then it ought not be an issue.

Ron will legally adopt (read buy) Lewis from his parents and then step down to spend time with his new family...simple!

ArrowsFA1

4th March 2008, 08:46

When McLaren were found guilty of further transgressions than Renault, wider dissemination of another team's information and, according to the FIA wilful misleading of the FIA's investigation (though it must be said, not by Ron at that point), that is when the punishments differed.
Who can tell which hearing this came from:

the WMSC notes with strong disapproval the fact that there were individuals of sufficient seniority within [team name] who should have known that the drawings that [name] showed them contained proprietary confidential information. This organisational failing meant that they did not report the matter to their line managers as they should have done

markabilly

4th March 2008, 13:17

SGWilko

4th March 2008, 13:26

the real question as to current impetus may relate to the latest in moves by Italian police in seizing certain email information from the macLaren computers. Perhpas where there was smoke ,there was some heavy duty fire, that we have not seen,making me think that this will be even more of a problem for certain memebers of mac than ever before

And if that REALLY was the case, and the Italian Rozzers were that clever, and could recover deleted emails (assuming if there was such evidence, it was just 'left' on the system), waiting for it to be discovered.........

My word, sounds like an Arther C Clark novel...........

markabilly

4th March 2008, 14:22

And if that REALLY was the case, and the Italian Rozzers were that clever, and could recover deleted emails (assuming if there was such evidence, it was just 'left' on the system), waiting for it to be discovered.........

My word, sounds like an Arther C Clark novel...........

Some systems do maintain back ups and records of all emails, and their mesages, on magentic tapes, regardless of whether deleted or not by individual users. If one could obtain the back up of (for example) April 1 (a very very good date :D ), then one could well have a complete record of all emails saved on the system previously saved and present on the system at that date, plus all email traffic for that particular day. And merely deleting an email does leave a "ghost" on the hard drive, that can be recovered until that portion of the memory is written over. Indeed it happens all the time....

in any event i was just wondering, becuase I think the RD fate was sealed by the corporate way of Mercedes months ago...they are only in F1 to sell cars, and not to race as the racing is just a cost of doing business, just like ads on TV.......real racers race becuase they love it all for itself and by itself---and RD and Williams are the last of the breed

ioan

4th March 2008, 15:21

Simplistic Nonsense... Ron Dennis's reputation has been "tarnished"...

by a mean-spirited, vendictive, morally bankrupt individual.

Mad Max's... Vendictive action... ?

One only has to look at the way the investigation and punishment was handed down by the FIA in 2007 to McLaren vs. Renault...

for the same infringements !!!

:dozey: Now, go back and review Mad Max's actions that resulted in the FIAsco at Indy...
which has since seen both Michelin and the USA no longer involved in Formula One.

:rolleyes: Mad Max's vendictive witchhunts, both in attacking Ron Dennis through McLaren as well as his personal attack on Jackie Stewart... will define the ignoble reputation of this man for years to come.

Thankfully, he didn't carry out his threat to sanction withdrawing all FIA involvement & support, here in the States.

Although on second thought... maybe we would be better served if he had carried out his "Threat" !!!

:s mokin: Trumper

You should give up smoking, it clearly isn't good for your health! :p :

Almost forgot:

Bye bye Ron! :wave:

ArrowsFA1

7th March 2008, 10:16

McLaren team boss Ron Dennis has the full support of partners Mercedes, the German company's motorsport boss Norbert Haug has said.

"I'm now in my 14th year of working with Ron, and during this time only one other team has been more successful than ours has ," Haug told Bild magazine. "As team boss, Ron has played an immense part in achieving that success.

"Any negative statements appearing in the media are mere speculation and originate outside the company. We stand by Ron and are continuing to work with the same management structure."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65516

Big Ben

7th March 2008, 13:38

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65516

and FA didn't have such a bad time at McLaren... he said... But who believes him?

F1 and politics have too many things in common these days. What one thinks, does or says are 3 complete different things.

7th March 2008, 19:03

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65516

Which is noted.......but why should we believe that?

Mclaren-Mercedes claimed last year that there was no problem with Alonso & Hamilton and that Mike Coughlan was not involved in the MP4/22 development.

So why should anyone believe anything that comes from that organisation now?

That is the problem that Mclaren-Mercedes has now.

wmcot

7th March 2008, 19:27

Which is noted.......but why should we believe that?

Mclaren-Mercedes claimed last year that there was no problem with Alonso & Hamilton and that Mike Coughlan was not involved in the MP4/22 development.

So why should anyone believe anything that comes from that organisation now?

That is the problem that Mclaren-Mercedes has now.

But RD and McLaren have "integrity!" ;)

ArrowsFA1

8th March 2008, 09:22

Which is noted.......but why should we believe that?
What we chose to believe makes no difference. For the time being Ron Dennis remains in place and has the publicly expressed support of his team and of Mercedes.

However I do think it's only a matter of time, as Dennis said more than 18 months ago, before he is no longer team principal.

mstillhere

8th March 2008, 16:03

For the time being Ron Dennis remains in place and has the publicly expressed support of his team and of Mercedes.

Mercedes does not like him. That's why they are firing him.

However I do think it's only a matter of time, as Dennis said more than 18 months ago, before he is no longer team principal.

So the scandal has nothing to do with him being dumped?

Why is it so hard for you aknowledge the facts?

SGWilko

8th March 2008, 17:57

But RD and McLaren have "integrity!" ;)

Integrity, is the next new F1 talent? Is he any good?

SGWilko

8th March 2008, 17:59

.

Mercedes does not like him. That's why they are firing him.

So the scandal has nothing to do with him being dumped?

Why is it so hard for you aknowledge the facts?

Facts. I was not aware of either his sacking or removal. But hey, anyone who's lips move is a liar?

mstillhere

8th March 2008, 18:09

Facts. I was not aware of either his sacking or removal. But hey, anyone who's lips move is a liar?

I have not heard either him saying thayt he is VOLUNTARELY leaving. I actually have heard just the opposite.

SGWilko

8th March 2008, 18:15

I have not heard either him saying thayt he is VOLUNTARELY leaving. I actually have heard just the opposite.

The Ronster has been talking about retirement for nigh on 18 months now, I assume that is voluntary......

Certainly, don't sell your stock in the middle of an impending global recession. Trouble is, is there really anyone up to Ron's job description, after all, he's made McLaren one of the most successful teams (and profitable I might add).....

8th March 2008, 18:21

But hey, anyone who's lips move is a liar?

Depends what they've said before, I suppose.

Seriously,I think that 'integrity' is going to be a major problem for Mclaren-Mercedes from now until the point when Ron quits/retires/resigns/gets thrown out (delete as to your preference).

The shadow of 'Spygate' will linger over Mclaren and re-appear whenever controversy comes up.......much in the same way that Schumi could never, or rather was not allowed, to get away from Jerez 97.

SGWilko

8th March 2008, 18:25

Depends what they've said before, I suppose.

Seriously,I think that 'integrity' is going to be a major problem for Mclaren-Mercedes from now until the point when Ron quits/retires/resigns/gets thrown out (delete as to your preference).

The shadow of 'Spygate' will linger over Mclaren and re-appear whenever controversy comes up.......much in the same way that Schumi could never, or rather was not allowed, to get away from Jerez 97.

Well, lets wait for the book. Aligned with the FIA climbdown, and the Italian investigation not really making much 'stick' despite all the hot air, there could yet be some egg on faces......

Watch this space I guess.

Bagwan

8th March 2008, 18:42

However I do think it's only a matter of time, as Dennis said more than 18 months ago, before he is no longer team principal.

So , what did Ron know back then , that we haven't heard about ?

Yes , that's got to be it .
He must have finally caught a glimpse of that nondescript black car that was tailing him .
Yeah , that's it .
And , when he had that pizza shop guy who knew the copyshop guy who knew a guy who could check out the licence plate on the nondescript black car , he was told it was registered in Italy .

Little did he know , it was actually registered in Paris , and the Pizza shop guy's name wasn't Giovanni , but Jean-Guy .
The copy shop guy , he was to meet again later .

It was when Ron saw that the copyshop guy had a parking space at the country club that he got the willies and decided that they were getting too close .
He would say he was tired and then stay on . That would keep them happy for a while . That would hopefully keep the nondescript black cars out of his rear-view mirrors for a time , surely .

Now , when we find out that the man driving the nondescript black car , a man of the same name as the man who is the first pilot of the Airbus A380 , coincidentally a French company , is Fernando Alonso , we know that Old McLaren had a mole , EE II EE II OOOOOOO .

All that remains of the mystery is to re-arrange the letters in the name Fernando Alonso to find out the route to the next clue .

SGWilko

8th March 2008, 18:47

All that remains of the mystery is to re-arrange the letters in the name Fernando Alonso to find out the route to the next clue .

Nods Alone Forna? Which roughly translated means...

'Very sorry everyone, but it was me all along, mwah ha ha ha ha ha haaaaa'

Tazio

8th March 2008, 21:15

Nods Alone Forna? Which roughly translated means...

'Very sorry everyone, but it was me all along, mwah ha ha ha ha ha haaaaa'
R-a-n a-l-s-o o-n e-n-d o-f which is obviously a reference to a hidden jet turbine in Hamy's Exhaust system! Ha!!!

SGWilko

8th March 2008, 21:18

R-a-n a-l-s-o o-n e-n-d o-f which is obviously a reference to a hidden jet turbine in Hamy's Exhaust system! Ha!!!

It could loosely be read as Ronald end of, as in, end of Ron? ;)

Tazio

8th March 2008, 22:05

It could loosely be read as Ronald end of, as in, end of Ron? ;) That wouldn't be sinister enough!!!!!!!!
Some how the Brainiacs at Mc. figured out how to use a reverse turbo,
A-N-D get it past scrutineering!

mstillhere

9th March 2008, 00:41

The Ronster has been talking about retirement for nigh on 18 months now, I assume that is voluntary......

Would you mind post a link where RD states that he is clearly planning to retire? (It should not be hard to do, if he has been saying it for the last 18 months). That's because until very recentely he was adamantly denying all those rumours talking about him retiring. ( I can definetely provide those links, if needed)

wmcot

9th March 2008, 07:45

That wouldn't be sinister enough!!!!!!!!
Some how the Brainiacs at Mc. figured out how to use a reverse turbo,
A-N-D get it past scrutineering!

Really? A reverse turbo? Does that mean that the 2008 car will be very fast in reverse? Will it be powerful enough to back out of gravel traps without a crane?

You could be on to something... ;)

Big Ben

9th March 2008, 09:29

Would you mind post a link where RD states that he is clearly planning to retire? (It should not be hard to do, if he has been saying it for the last 18 months). That's because until very recentely he was adamantly denying all those rumours talking about him retiring. ( I can definetely provide those links, if needed)

why don´t you post a link for us where he says he´s not voluntarily retiring but the opposite like you ve said in a previous post??? if you are so well informed...

ArrowsFA1

9th March 2008, 10:18

Why is it so hard for you aknowledge the facts?
What facts have you given for anyone to acknowledge? Admittedly "stories" have appeared in the media (denied by McLaren and Mercedes) that Ron Dennis is stepping down or being sacked (take your choice which) but despite much wishful thinking by some this has not yet happened.

Given that RD has previously dicussed retirement, long before recent events, it is no suprise that his departure has now been raised as an issue in the context of Spygate.

Would you mind post a link where RD states that he is clearly planning to retire?
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/54147

"I may still be chairman of the group but it's highly unlikely that I'll be the team principal...I just want to be a successful chapter in the book. Not the book...In five years' time I will not be the team principal, that is for sure."

TMorel

9th March 2008, 10:54

As much as I despise RD, I would still like to see him hang onto the team for two more seasons to try and turn things around and provide some good (honest) competition. I think he still deserves that after everything he's given to the sport over the decades *nods* After that, he can **** right off.

It still saddens me to think of one less "team" and one more manufacturer tho.

God bless Frank and may he hang around a lot longer.

ioan

9th March 2008, 13:59

There's no smoke without fire!
Ron will silently step down.
People in the McLaren team will say it was because of Max Mosely even though all the clues point towards Germany.
But hey, this is normal for McLaren is perfect and such things can't come from the inside. ;)

mstillhere

9th March 2008, 17:40

What facts have you given for anyone to acknowledge? Admittedly "stories" have appeared in the media (denied by McLaren and Mercedes) that Ron Dennis is stepping down or being sacked (take your choice which) but despite much wishful thinking by some this has not yet happened.

Given that RD has previously dicussed retirement, long before recent events, it is no suprise that his departure has now been raised as an issue in the context of Spygate.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/54147

You are failing to prove your point. According to the news he is stepping down before the beginning of the champioship. Which is not "5 years from now". 5 years from now is...let's see..... 2008...2009...2010....hum....2013, right?
And btw, these are not MY news, as you are full aware.

SGWilko

9th March 2008, 20:41

You are failing to prove your point. According to the news he is stepping down before the beginning of the champioship. Which is not "5 years from now". 5 years from now is...let's see..... 2008...2009...2010....hum....2013, right?
And btw, these are not MY news, as you are full aware.

Yep, thats right. Counting's great, innit? ;)

If Ron is not there in five years time, then his saying some 18 months ago that he won't be there in 5 years time is true.

Isn't it?

markabilly

10th March 2008, 03:41

Yep, thats right. Counting's great, innit? ;)

If Ron is not there in five years time, then his saying some 18 months ago that he won't be there in 5 years time is true.

Isn't it?
i thought, thanks to the "Steppy out of poo-poo" mess by the FIA, that you done gone cynic...... :D

ArrowsFA1

11th March 2008, 12:56

Ron Dennis has ended weeks of speculation over his future by confirming that he will stay on as team principal of McLaren-Mercedes in 2008, autosport.com can exclusively reveal. Autosport.com has learned that Dennis, 60, addressed staff at McLaren's Technology Centre in Woking just prior to leaving for Melbourne, and promised them he would not be stepping down.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65627

ioan

11th March 2008, 13:06

They also stressed, for a whole season, that Kimi was staying with them beyond 2006. We all knew what was the truth!
Believing what Ron, or for that matter anyone at McL&C says is something I do not consider anymore.

Mark

11th March 2008, 15:05

McLaren chief Ron Dennis will not be quitting the Formula One team.

Dennis was considering quitting at least one of his three key roles with the Woking-based team in the wake of last year's F1 spying scandal.

But he is to stay on as chief executive and chairman of McLaren Group and principal of the Formula One team.

Dennis, 60, told his staff on Tuesday that he would not be leaving before heading off to Australia before the start of the F1 season this weekend.

Dennis's judgement came under intense scrutiny after the 'spygate' affair which rocked McLaren last season.

They were fined £50m and stripped of their constructors' championship points after being found guilty of possessing data from rivals Ferrari.

A criminal investigation is being conducted into the matter, and Dennis is believed to have been among McLaren executives questioned by Italian police.

McLaren driver Lewis Hamilton just missed out on the drivers' title in 2007.

He has a close relationship with Dennis and is considered one of the main contenders this year.

Story from BBC SPORT:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7289828.stm

Published: 2008/03/11 13:16:59 GMT

© BBC MMVIII

ioan

11th March 2008, 15:49

I thought there was another thread about this already! :p :

Tazio

11th March 2008, 15:58

OK it's time to start sig bets! What is the over under in number of races until
Ron is Retired/excommunicated. I'll go out on a limb, and say he will be overthrown in 10 races or less! Any takers!

mstillhere

11th March 2008, 16:31

OK it's time to start sig bets! What is the over under in number of races until
Ron is Retired/excommunicated. I'll go out on a limb, and say he will be overthrown in 10 races or less! Any takers!

I read it myself this morning. I don't who who or what to believe anymore. I give up

wmcot

11th March 2008, 17:48

It makes sense. With his impending divorce, he is looking for something stable in his life. Although I'm not particularly an RD fan, I can't imagine anyone splitting up with his wife and leaving his career all at once - that would drive you batty!

wmcot

11th March 2008, 18:14

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65627

I wonder if he has the blessing of the Mercedes bigwigs or if he's just standing up to them by going public in his fight to stay on?

Chaparral66

11th March 2008, 21:43

For Dennis to leave now in the wake of the scandal might leave McLaren rudderless at a crucial time when Lewis Hamilton is emerging as a long term threat to win races and championships. Hamilton has a close relationship with RD and LH's focus might not be as sharp without RD being there to be a rock for him. Better that Dennis stays on and continue to work with his phenom.

markabilly

12th March 2008, 01:24

I wonder if he has the blessing of the Mercedes bigwigs or if he's just standing up to them by going public in his fight to stay on?
Problem for mercedes is that they do not want there to be further taint by the departure, but they do not want spoiled goods soiling their image.....sooooo.

And if RD has been so advised to turn it into a fight, then mercedes may back down to avoid further taint or look to acquire that extra perecntage of the team that would give them unlimited control and that may be very expensive to do, plus who knows what the contracts call for, such as any golden parachutes and so forth....

mstillhere

14th March 2008, 00:49

This is the latest twist in the RD Vs. Mercedes soap opera:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7289828.stm

How do you read it? I see RD saying that he is stepping down.

jso1985

14th March 2008, 01:13

I read it as he was about to step down but due the spying scandal, he's going to stay a bit more...
nothing new then...

markabilly

14th March 2008, 03:20

This is the latest twist in the RD Vs. Mercedes soap opera:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7289828.stm

How do you read it? I see RD saying that he is stepping down.
I read it as though he is trying to say he was going to do it, (sure!!) but he don't want to retire now that all the stuff happenned and have his last year known as the year of the McCheats and Chokers

SGWilko

14th March 2008, 10:00

I read it as though he is trying to say he was going to do it, (sure!!) but he don't want to retire now that all the stuff happenned and have his last year known as the year of the McCheats and Chokers

Och, you kill me, Greavsey.

ArrowsFA1

14th March 2008, 10:23

How do you read it?
Same old story, different headline :rolleyes:

Dave B

14th March 2008, 12:06

Given that Ron has publicly declared that he'll be staying with McLaren, and given that the 2008 season is not underway, might this not be a good time to move on?

I'd even go so far as to suggest locking this thread now.

markabilly

14th March 2008, 12:15

Och, you kill me, Greavsey.
sorry, but i will miss you

SGWilko

14th March 2008, 12:20

ioan

14th March 2008, 12:56

There's no need for common sense on here........

McLaren fans can't take a thread that talks about RD leaving the team! Nothing new. But why close the thread? It's not like anyone insulted you.

Anyway, don't worry, we will get a brand new thread as soon as RD goes, and I believe it won't be long before it happens.

ArrowsFA1

14th March 2008, 13:19

McLaren fans can't take a thread that talks about RD leaving the team!
You're making a common assumption there :)

Tazio

14th March 2008, 14:27

SGWilko

14th March 2008, 17:53

At this point the only clashing of Mercedes, and Ron I give a flying FL!CK about is in symphony,
and directed squarley at Ferrari. It's looking like it will be a clash of epic proportions!
Yea' babe! Let's get it on!!!

Well, if Domenicelli (sorry, spelling?) can hold out an olive branch for a new harmonious era, so some of us can take a lead.

Here's to a hard fought, evenly matched, exciting, down to the wire clean championship fight.