Australia's Cricket Tour of India - Charges of Racism

[Valve Bounce]

I feel so strongly about this, and the fact the subject has nothing to do with cricket, that I decided to post a new thread. Anyone wish to comment?

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23008869-601,00.html

[Valve Bounce]

Hearing delayed for one day. Here is some of the opinions of others: http://au.sports.yahoo.com/080105/3/1jxbe.html

[millencolin]

i'll wait till i hear more about it before i make a comment.

But racism in sport is something i cannot stand for.

[Daniel]

i'll wait till i hear more about it before i make a comment.

But racism in sport is something i cannot stand for.
Amen to that. I think it's best to wait for the hearing and for evidence before commenting on something like this.

[anthonyvop]

Jeez!
What ever happened to "sticks & stones"?

[Valve Bounce]

This is not something new. During the earlier tour of India, Symonds had been subjected to monkey taunts by the Indian crowd which the Indian authorities and political leaders initially denied or defended as prayers to a monkey god.

It was interesting that police were despatched to a position in front of the stands where all the taunts were coming from. However TV footage showed the line of police with their backs to the stands and the policewoman at the right clearly distressed that all this was happening behind her but afraid to turn around to look at the crowd.

It was only when the Channel 9 footage was shown around the world that the Cricket Authority and Police were shamed into taking some action.

Even now, I am disappointed that Gavaskar is trying to defend any alledged taunts by saying that what occurs on the field should remain on the field.

To me, racial and monkey taunts have no place on the playing field.

Here is some interesting reading: http://www.theage.com.au/news/cricket/harbhajan-has-form-say-hosts/2008/01/05/1198950130931.html

[Storm]

I have not seen the Symonds thing in India or the one with Harbhajan now...but of course we don't need racism in any sport or life.

I never understood what the monkey chants were and mostly I have heard it in relation to football and stadiums in Italy and Spain. I fail to see what the point of racial abuse by Indian spectators is going to be when we ourselves have been abused a lot in the past. But then there are so many idiots around that they see something and then copy it without thinking what it means.

[Malbec]

There isn't any space for racism in sport but I do wonder about double standards here.

The Aussies have raised sledging to a fine art. While racist abuse isn't to be tolerated one does wonder why sledging is then allowed.

[Valve Bounce]

There isn't any space for racism in sport but I do wonder about double standards here.

The Aussies have raised sledging to a fine art. While racist abuse isn't to be tolerated one does wonder why sledging is then allowed.

Good point. In fact, I am sure the Indians can use a myriad of dielects to sledge the Aussis that neither the umpire nor the Aussis would fully understand, but which would entertain their team mates. I can remember in my youth there used to be a Indian driver next door. I used to tease him with some really putrid Indian sledging and now I wonder what would have happened to me if the guy caught me.

I can swear in a multiple of languages and dialects and I am sure the Indians can also. I can say some vile stuff that would have the Indians in hysterics and the Aussis not knowing what the insult was all about.

So!! when you get down to the nitty gritty, maybe sledging should be moderated - it adds nothing to the game.

[Malbec]

Good point. In fact, I am sure the Indians can use a myriad of dielects to sledge the Aussis that neither the umpire nor the Aussis would fully understand, but which would entertain their team mates. I can remember in my youth there used to be a Indian driver next door. I used to tease him with some really putrid Indian sledging and now I wonder what would have happened to me if the guy caught me.

I can swear in a multiple of languages and dialects and I am sure the Indians can also. I can say some vile stuff that would have the Indians in hysterics and the Aussis not knowing what the insult was all about. And the whole point of sledging is to do it in a language your opponent understands so they are put off or go off Zidane style.

So!! when you get down to the nitty gritty, maybe sledging should be moderated - it adds nothing to the game.

Actually I was thinking about it the other way. I wonder what was said to Singh before he hit back. Comments about his wife? Sledging is something the Aussies are famous for, not the Indians.

Also the whole point of sledging is to do it in a language your opponent understands so they're put off or go off Zidane style.

Can't the Aussies take what they dish out?

[Daniel]

Actually I was thinking about it the other way. I wonder what was said to Singh before he hit back. Comments about his wife? Sledging is something the Aussies are famous for, not the Indians.

Also the whole point of sledging is to do it in a language your opponent understands so they're put off or go off Zidane style.

Can't the Aussies take what they dish out?
Or Cantona style :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH8TbX8zrYI

I've lived in Australia most of my life and I doubt this was an unprovoked remark if there was one made. Australia is the only country I've ever seen in where covering up for your mates commiting a petty crime is a commonly held national value and where it's OK to insult someone foreign but when they do the same it's just not bloody well on! Not fair dinkum mate!

[Valve Bounce]

Here is the latest development as of 8.30 am our time: http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23015099-2882,00.html

It is my understanding that the whole thing started with Harbijan patting Brett Lee's bum and Symonds told him that was not on. It went downhill from there.

I am sure there are more links in the other Australian newspapers as well as from the Baggy Green website.

[Valve Bounce]

For those who missed the monkey taunts in India, here is a link. You might be able to get others from Indian sources if you are lucky: http://wwos.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=304968

And this link gives the history of the taunting in India, first the denials, then the nonsensical explanations about monkey god's prayers, then finally the admission: http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?mkt=en-AU&q=monkey%20taunts%20by%20Indian%20fans

[Bebee]

Okay, I'm confused. I'm assuming the main point of this thread is the fact that Harbhajan Singh got reported... The title of the thread is misleading then. :p :

I'm with Dylan and Dan on this one, and the whole double-standard thing does piss me off. The fact that Anil Kumble was that pissed off at the press conference says something - he's usually pretty reserved...

I don't know if anyone saw what Ian Chappell had to say on the Today show... And I have to say, he's got a pretty good point.

[Valve Bounce]

Okay, I'm confused. I'm assuming the main point of this thread is the fact that Harbhajan Singh got reported... The title of the thread is misleading then. :p :

I'm with Dylan and Dan on this one, and the whole double-standard thing does piss me off. The fact that Anil Kumble was that pissed off at the press conference says something - he's usually pretty reserved...

I don't know if anyone saw what Ian Chappell had to say on the Today show... And I have to say, he's got a pretty good point.

OK!! Point one, the title of this thread was changed from what I posted: That an Indian cricketer was reported here.

POint two, I think Anil Kumble was annoyed because of certain umpiring decisions and the apparent contribution of the opposition team made to these decisions.

And No! I didn't see nor hear what Ian Chappel said on the today show, but I'll see if I can find it on the channel 9 website.

OK, found it : http://video.msn.com/?mkt=en-au&brand=ninemsn&tab=m2397&mediaid=116889&from=39&vid=A51FB85B-FE97-4A6F-8444-8CE3813FAB0E&playlist=videoByTag:mk:en-AU:vs:0:tag:aunews_autoday:ns:MSNVideo_Top_Cat :p s:1:s d:-1:ind:1:ff:8A

I must say that Ian has a good point here.

[Daniel]

Ian Chappell is perfectly right. It's not up to the players to police the game.

[Valve Bounce]

"I don't like you; I don't want to play with you anymore!! I'm taking my ball, and I'm going home"

[Daniel]

"I don't like you; I don't want to play with you anymore!! I'm taking my ball, and I'm going home"
Or.

Oooh we need a bit of help winning this. Ooh you're a racist?

[harsha]

for that matter how can the match referee claim to know what the person is thinking at that time...is he a mind reader

[Storm]

So calling someone a monkey is racist ? didn't we all come from monkeys...except the bible lovers I guess..

So whatever Symonds said "its not on" or whatever he said was polite and fine and what Harbhajan said in retaliation is racist (!)

I say lets treat them both the same way...which in my opinion is 2 competitive players venting off the pressure on the field with some "words" they wouldn't use in normal conversation....lets leave it at that and get on with our lives rather than nit-picking about what words were used.

[Valve Bounce]

So calling someone a monkey is racist ? didn't we all come from monkeys...except the bible lovers I guess..

So whatever Symonds said "its not on" or whatever he said was polite and fine and what Harbhajan said in retaliation is racist (!)

.


No!! Monkey taunts are definitely OUT.

The last thing we want is for the MCG to erupt into Monkey taunts when any coloured player(s) take the field in any sport.

[AJP]

If there were racist remarks said to Roy then the punishment fits the crime..
I feel that Australian Cricket can surely lay off on the arrogance, but not the way they play cricket. They play hard and take no prisoners..they are great sledgers but, have they ever been accused of racism? I do not know. So please fill me in if they have. There will always be sledging in cricket, it's part of the game. especially in test cricket where psychology plays a bit part.

[Valve Bounce]

Did Tendulkar SMS to India spark the Tour Suspension? http://wwos.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=343200

[harsha]

1-Dean Jones comments on Hashim Amla

doesn't that count as Racism

[AJP]

1-Dean Jones comments on Hashim Amla

doesn't that count as Racism
Yes it does,
and that is why the idiot Dean Jones was sacked by Ten Sports and will never broadcast again..

[harsha]

just answering your question :)

[AJP]

just answering your question :) I actually meant to ask, are the Australian cricket team on the field using racist remarks?
but thanks for reminding me about Stupid Dean Jones... ;)

[harsha]

listen for us(indians as such) being called a monkey definetly isn't a racial insult

hell my teachers called me monkey so many times...so i should go and sue them :D

sledging is something the aussies have been masters at...they can dish it out but sure can't take it when it's dished out to them

remember the Ramnaresh Sarwan VS Glenn Mcgrath episode

[Hawkmoon]

listen for us(indians as such) being called a monkey definetly isn't a racial insult

hell my teachers called me monkey so many times...so i should go and sue them :D

sledging is something the aussies have been masters at...they can dish it out but sure can't take it when it's dished out to them

remember the Ramnaresh Sarwan VS Glenn Mcgrath episode

The monkey comment has been deemed to be racist by the ICC. Harbajhan in particular was warned not to use it again after he did so in India. He couldn't help himself and he's suspended. Fair enough. He was warned. Whether it constitutes racism is another matter. I personally don't think it is but Harbajhan knew it wasn't allowed yet did it anyway. Not very smart.

This is not a case of Australia not being able to take what they give. They give plenty and take plenty in return. Most of it stays on the pitch. Racism, in whatever form, is not allowed. You can bet that if any racist remarks were made by the Australian players toward the Indians we would know about it. Darren Lehman was suspended a few years ago for a racist comment so the Australians are well aware of the consequences. The Indians should be too.

[Valve Bounce]

listen for us(indians as such) being called a monkey definetly isn't a racial insult

hell my teachers called me monkey so many times...so i should go and sue them :D

sledging is something the aussies have been masters at...they can dish it out but sure can't take it when it's dished out to them

remember the Ramnaresh Sarwan VS Glenn Mcgrath episode

I have refrained from addressing this issue for very strong reasons. However, having viewed the taunts from the indian crowd on TV, I feel that this has degenerated into a very serious racial insult and this has been recognised by the BCCI, as well as Australians. Furthemore, it was made very clear that monkey taunts at the cricket would not be tolerated.

I re-iterate that the last thing I want to see is the crowd at the MCG going into monkey taunts whenever any non-white sportstman or sportsmen appear on the ground.

[harsha]

An Australian article showed Symonds as Hanuman(important god for hindus)

i'm an athiest,i couldn't care for what they show Symonds as..but is hurting the religious sentiments of people simply on?????

and i felt the pic was funny :cheese: but that's beside the point

[harsha]

it might be just me,but i'd rather take Sachin's word on this rather than take the word of Ponting or Symonds...

[AJP]

This is not a case of Australia not being able to take what they give. They give plenty and take plenty in return. Most of it stays on the pitch. Racism, in whatever form, is not allowed. You can bet that if any racist remarks were made by the Australian players toward the Indians we would know about it. Darren Lehman was suspended a few years ago for a racist comment so the Australians are well aware of the consequences. The Indians should be too.
That about sums it up for me...!

[Ranger]

Just on the news... umpire Steve Bucknor has been dropped for the remainder of the tour (well... the 3rd test in Adelaide). A little harsh but like all players they get dropped for doing their job poorly.

[Hawkmoon]

Just on the news... umpire Steve Bucknor has been dropped for the remainder of the tour (well... the 3rd test in Adelaide). A little harsh but like all players they get dropped for doing their job poorly.

That's pathetic. He had a bad game, no doubt, but should an umpire be dropped just because he made a call that went against India? This is the same as the Darrell Hair case. He made some calls that the Sri Lankans didn't like so together with the other sub-continent teams they pressured the ICC into kicking him out.

It's rather ironic that Australia gets accused of bad sportsmanship when you have India threatening to cancel tours because they don't like the umpire's decisions and Pakistan walking off the field after being caught ball tampering, not to mention all the match fixing allegations.

It's about time the ICC had the guts to stand up to these countries because they are hurting the game far more than anything Australia has done on the field.

[harsha]

not getting the Darrell Hair issue into the mix in which i happen to agree with Hair.Pakistan teams have had a great history of ball tampering.

what guarantee is there that Bucknor will do an impartial/unbiased job during the next test match after all this ruckus.

[Hawkmoon]

not getting the Darrell Hair issue into the mix in which i happen to agree with Hair.Pakistan teams have had a great history of ball tampering.

what guarantee is there that Bucknor will do an impartial/unbiased job during the next test match after all this ruckus.

None, but the ruckuss was caused by the BCCI and nobody else. Bucknor had a poor game. If he was dropped because of that then fine. But if he was dropped because the ICC are trying to mollify India then the decision stinks worse than any of Bucknor's bad calls during the game. No country should be able to pressure the governing body into making official appointments. What's next? Should only umpires approved by the BCCI be allowed to umpire Indian matches?

[harsha]

actually the boards have to approve the umpires before the test series starts and it already is a rule... :)

[Hawkmoon]

actually the boards have to approve the umpires before the test series starts and it already is a rule... :)

So the BCCI were quite happy with Bucknor until he made a mistake and know he has to go or they're taking their bat and ball and going home. That's very mature. :rolleyes:

[Valve Bounce]

An Australian article showed Symonds as Hanuman(important god for hindus)

i'm an athiest,i couldn't care for what they show Symonds as..but is hurting the religious sentiments of people simply on?????

and i felt the pic was funny :cheese: but that's beside the point

harsha, let me be perfectly blunt and clear about this. If any of the Indian players walked out onto the MCG and were subjected to the monkey taunts as were seen in Mumbai, I would be horrified, outraged and disgusted. I would want to know why the security did not stop this immediately, and I would expect the police to take action, and the MCG authorities to ban all the caught taunters from the MCG from all forms of sport including Aussi Rules.

I hope that you can understand my feeling on this issue.

[Valve Bounce]

not getting the Darrell Hair issue into the mix in which i happen to agree with Hair.Pakistan teams have had a great history of ball tampering.

what guarantee is there that Bucknor will do an impartial/unbiased job during the next test match after all this ruckus.


Let's face it: Bucknor was impartial and unbiased. I don't think this is the problem. The whole point is that he is getting old, falling asleep on his feet, and has become incompetent. If you don't believe me, just check any tapes you can get hold of concerning his incompetent decisions.

[harsha]

harsha, let me be perfectly blunt and clear about this. If any of the Indian players walked out onto the MCG and were subjected to the monkey taunts as were seen in Mumbai, I would be horrified, outraged and disgusted. I would want to know why the security did not stop this immediately, and I would expect the police to take action, and the MCG authorities to ban all the caught taunters from the MCG from all forms of sport including Aussi Rules.

I hope that you can understand my feeling on this issue.

i do understand your meaning. :)

@Hawkmoon's post-BCCI have always been the worst thing to happen to Indian Cricket.There's no point denying that

but the point i'm trying to make is that

1-where's the famous aussie sportsmanship?

lost almost all the respect i've had for the aussie cricket team.Sure they are a great bunch of players.If this is the way they play cricket,count me out :)
you say you play the game hard and demanding? no one's denied that but is it too much to hope for a handshake to the other team :)

[harsha]

Let's face it: Bucknor was impartial and unbiased. I don't think this is the problem. The whole point is that he is getting old, falling asleep on his feet, and has become incompetent. If you don't believe me, just check any tapes you can get hold of concerning his incompetent decisions.

will he be as unbiased after the match at the SCG as he was before...i highly doubt it

[Daniel]

Let's face it: Bucknor was impartial and unbiased. I don't think this is the problem. The whole point is that he is getting old, falling asleep on his feet, and has become incompetent. If you don't believe me, just check any tapes you can get hold of concerning his incompetent decisions.
Bring back Steve Randell I say

[Hawkmoon]

i do understand your meaning. :)

@Hawkmoon's post-BCCI have always been the worst thing to happen to Indian Cricket.There's no point denying that

but the point i'm trying to make is that

1-where's the famous aussie sportsmanship?

lost almost all the respect i've had for the aussie cricket team.Sure they are a great bunch of players.If this is the way they play cricket,count me out :)
you say you play the game hard and demanding? no one's denied that but is it too much to hope for a handshake to the other team :)

The Australians shook the hands of the Indians after the game. I don't understand these accusations of bad sportsmanship.

[harsha]

read Peter Roebuck's article on Sydney Morning Herald

it'll echo what most Indians do think of the Australian Cricket Team

[Valve Bounce]

i do understand your meaning. :)

@Hawkmoon's post-BCCI have always been the worst thing to happen to Indian Cricket.There's no point denying that

but the point i'm trying to make is that

1-where's the famous aussie sportsmanship?

lost almost all the respect i've had for the aussie cricket team.Sure they are a great bunch of players.If this is the way they play cricket,count me out :)
you say you play the game hard and demanding? no one's denied that but is it too much to hope for a handshake to the other team :)


Your reply should clearly be in the other thread. This one is about Racial comments - for which I thoroughly abhor.

But while you are here, let me make another point perfectly clear: for me India won the Sydney test, no question. One would have to be blind to assume otherwise. So, for me, the Gavaskar Border still belongs to India.

[harsha]

actually it doesn't as your team won the trophy the last time you came to India

[Hawkmoon]

Your reply should clearly be in the other thread. This one is about Racial comments - for which I thoroughly abhor.

But while you are here, let me make another point perfectly clear: for me India won the Sydney test, no question. One would have to be blind to assume otherwise. So, for me, the Gavaskar Border still belongs to India.

I disagree Valve. India couldn't put Australia away on day one. Regardless of the Symonds decision they let Hogg, Lee and Johnson score something like 160 runs between them. 160 runs for the No. 8, 9 and 10 batsmen! Symonds wouldn't have been able to score another 130 runs if he didn't have a partner at the other end. All India had to do was remove the tail and leave Symonds stranded at the other end. Australia would have been bowled out for around 200 and India would have probably won.

That, combined with the fact that they folded like a house of cards on day five is why they lost. Bad decisions come and go. India let themselves get worked up over them rather than getting on with the game. If they were mentally stronger they would have cleaned up the Aussie tail on day one and Tendulkar, Laxman and Co. wouldn't have fallen so easliy on day five.

[Daniel]

The Australians shook the hands of the Indians after the game. I don't understand these accusations of bad sportsmanship.
Ooh I think I'll go and murder someone and then shake the hands of their family members. Shaking someone's hands means absolutely nothing at all. I've shook the hands of many a cricket player I felt was dishonest or that i didn't like at all. It's tradition and it's polite.

The article in the SMH is perfectly correct. Ponting is a twit who is only concerned with winning tests. He's never been captain material in the true sense.

I also think it's high time we had an umpire who could overules the decisions of the onfield umpires when it's clear that they are wrong. The "it's part of the game" BS has gone on for too long and we need umpiring that is as exact as possible.

[ShiftingGears]

Ooh I think I'll go and murder someone and then shake the hands of their family members. Shaking someone's hands means absolutely nothing at all. I've shook the hands of many a cricket player I felt was dishonest or that i didn't like at all. It's tradition and it's polite. It is sporting to acknowledge the other team via handshakes. They do not have to be polite and follow tradition but they do to acknowledge the other team.


The article in the SMH is perfectly correct. Ponting is a twit who is only concerned with winning tests. He's never been captain material in the true sense.
I am interested to hear your version of "being a captain in the true sense".


Also I don't agree with Harbajan's three match suspension. It is just sledging which the Australians are guilty of. What's said on field should stay on field.

[Daniel]

Yes they don't need to. But they don't need to be genuinely polite to them. Shaking hands can be just shaking hands or it can be a sportsmanly gesture.

Captain in the true sense? He's just not very sportsmanly in my view. Read the SMH article and you'll see what I mean. Terrific player but he's no Steve Waugh.

[Camelopard]

Indian Cricket tour to continue as just posted on the ABC site, although they have been known to be wrong before :) .

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/08/2134406.htm

[Valve Bounce]

I disagree Valve. India couldn't put Australia away on day one. Regardless of the Symonds decision they let Hogg, Lee and Johnson score something like 160 runs between them. 160 runs for the No. 8, 9 and 10 batsmen! Symonds wouldn't have been able to score another 130 runs if he didn't have a partner at the other end. All India had to do was remove the tail and leave Symonds stranded at the other end. Australia would have been bowled out for around 200 and India would have probably won.

That, combined with the fact that they folded like a house of cards on day five is why they lost. Bad decisions come and go. India let themselves get worked up over them rather than getting on with the game. If they were mentally stronger they would have cleaned up the Aussie tail on day one and Tendulkar, Laxman and Co. wouldn't have fallen so easliy on day five.


Fine. But in my mind, the Aussis were in a middle of a collapse when the Umpire stepped in.
And in my mind, India would have won. No way the Aussis deserve the Sydney test, not even a draw.

[ShiftingGears]

I don't think that justifies any accusations of bad sportsmanship.


Captain in the true sense? He's just not very sportsmanly in my view. Read the SMH article and you'll see what I mean. Terrific player but he's no Steve Waugh.

I'm assuming you're talking about the Roebuck article. Personally I think he needs to cool down. Critisising the Australian team for celebrating their record equalling win was utterly stupid. Ponting isn't as reserved as Steve Waugh but I certainly don't think he's this awfully unsportsmanly captain that everyone else is making him out to be.



Also - Bucknor has been raughted out of this. He had an off day, and if the Indians benefitted from several poor decisions, there'd be nothing spoken about it. Instead they want him kicked out. That's sportsmanship for you...

[Daniel]

If umpires don't perform then they should also face the chop. It's the way it happens in tournaments. I still don't like Ponting. He's no Steve Waugh or Gilchrist in my mind.

[Storm]

Also - Bucknor has been raughted out of this. He had an off day, and if the Indians benefitted from several poor decisions, there'd be nothing spoken about it. Instead they want him kicked out. That's sportsmanship for you...

Its not the first or second time this has happened...its almost as if Bucknor has a bee in his bonnet about the Indian team ....he has been the death finger on plenty of horrible decisions meted out to Indian batsmen in the past not just Sydney which was the icing on the cake so to speak.

As for as Ponting goes...he is just a twit like Daniel said...the Aussies can sledge with whatever language but the mention of monkey (which still baffles me as to how it is racist) makes him suddenly run like whining kid to his dad and reports it.


I will post the comments made by Tony Greig and Gavaskar and Mark Taylor who all agreed that this all started with Ponting making a meal of it. It was hilarious how Michael Slater was trying to explain why Ponting felt the need to report "monkey" ...Slater is the same guy in the last series who almost fought Dravid after falsely claiming a catch (looks like thats another habit now....bump catches!)

[Hawkmoon]

[

Ooh I think I'll go and murder someone and then shake the hands of their family members. Shaking someone's hands means absolutely nothing at all. I've shook the hands of many a cricket player I felt was dishonest or that i didn't like at all. It's tradition and it's polite.

The article in the SMH is perfectly correct. Ponting is a twit who is only concerned with winning tests. He's never been captain material in the true sense.

I also think it's high time we had an umpire who could overules the decisions of the onfield umpires when it's clear that they are wrong. The "it's part of the game" BS has gone on for too long and we need umpiring that is as exact as possible.

I was responding to harsha's claim that the Australians didn't shake the hands of the Indians which was clearly untrue.


Yes they don't need to. But they don't need to be genuinely polite to them. Shaking hands can be just shaking hands or it can be a sportsmanly gesture.

Captain in the true sense? He's just not very sportsmanly in my view. Read the SMH article and you'll see what I mean. Terrific player but he's no Steve Waugh.


If umpires don't perform then they should also face the chop. It's the way it happens in tournaments. I still don't like Ponting. He's no Steve Waugh or Gilchrist in my mind.

Where do you think Ponting learn't his trade? Ponting's captaincy is a direct continuation of the mindset instilled into the Australian team under Waugh. The ruthless streak you see in them was put there by Waugh. Under Taylor Australia were good but would often lose games at the end of a series if the series was already won. Waugh instilled a ruthlessness that Ponting has continue to foster.

So Ponting is no Waugh, but he most certainly is Waugh's disciple.


Its not the first or second time this has happened...its almost as if Bucknor has a bee in his bonnet about the Indian team ....he has been the death finger on plenty of horrible decisions meted out to Indian batsmen in the past not just Sydney which was the icing on the cake so to speak.

As for as Ponting goes...he is just a twit like Daniel said...the Aussies can sledge with whatever language but the mention of monkey (which still baffles me as to how it is racist) makes him suddenly run like whining kid to his dad and reports it.


I will post the comments made by Tony Greig and Gavaskar and Mark Taylor who all agreed that this all started with Ponting making a meal of it. It was hilarious how Michael Slater was trying to explain why Ponting felt the need to report "monkey" ...Slater is the same guy in the last series who almost fought Dravid after falsely claiming a catch (looks like thats another habit now....bump catches!)

If the Indians have such a problem with Bucknor why didn't they complain before the series started? India agrees, as do all the cricketing bodies, to let the ICC appoint the umpires. As soon as something doesn't go their way they cry foul and start threatening all and sundry. That's bad sportsmanship.

[Valve Bounce]

Imagine a group of Indian players standing close to the Aussi batsman, and one guy says in one of the Indian dialects: "Hey, this guy looks like an egg and bats like a duck", and all the others standing around start to snigger. Then another guy says "He looks more like a chicken than an egg" and they all snigger some more.

Nothing offends and upsets anyone than to be mocked and sniggered at in a language that he doesn't understand.

Soon, the Aussis will get the message that sledging is even more off putting when the other team shovels it back and they don't understand what the other team is sniggering at.

Of course, they could also make rude remarks in a foreign language about the Batsman's mother or sister, and they all chortle.

Sooner, rather than later, sledging will come to an end in cricket when al teams agree that they will no longer sledge.

[Hawkmoon]

Imagine a group of Indian players standing close to the Aussi batsman, and one guy says in one of the Indian dialects: "Hey, this guy looks like an egg and bats like a duck", and all the others standing around start to snigger. Then another guy says "He looks more like a chicken than an egg" and they all snigger some more.

Nothing offends and upsets anyone than to be mocked and sniggered at in a language that he doesn't understand.

Soon, the Aussis will get the message that sledging is even more off putting when the other team shovels it back and they don't understand what the other team is sniggering at.

Of course, they could also make rude remarks in a foreign language about the Batsman's mother or sister, and they all chortle.

Sooner, rather than later, sledging will come to an end in cricket when al teams agree that they will no longer sledge.

It's not going to happen. "Sledging" will continue to be a part of the game whilst ever ultra competitive sportsmen are playing for large sums of money.

What needs to go is this outdated notion of cricket being a game for "gentlemen". It isn't and will never be whilst ever large amounts of money are involved. The Americans call sledging "trash talking" and it's common practice in the NFL and I'm sure the other major sports as well. They don't seem to have a problem with it. Cricket does because it continues to delude itself that it's something more than just a highly competitive game no different from any other sport.

[Valve Bounce]

It's not going to happen. "Sledging" will continue to be a part of the game whilst ever ultra competitive sportsmen are playing for large sums of money.

What needs to go is this outdated notion of cricket being a game for "gentlemen". It isn't and will never be whilst ever large amounts of money are involved. The Americans call sledging "trash talking" and it's common practice in the NFL and I'm sure the other major sports as well. They don't seem to have a problem with it. Cricket does because it continues to delude itself that it's something more than just a highly competitive game no different from any other sport.


First of all, I'm not going to compare Australian Cricket with the NFL or the NBL.
Secondly, when the opposition dish it back in a language which they don't understand, that would make them take notice.

Thirdly, just because the game is highly competitive is no excuse/reason/justification for sledging.

[555-04Q2]

Thirdly, just because the game is highly competitive is no excuse/reason/justification for sledging.

I played in many many cricket games over the years for school, college and club and provintial levels. Trust me, sledging is part of the game to try and make you loose your concentration. It is as much a part of the game of cricket as bowling, batting and fielding are. It will never go away and rightly so. Hell, I was called a number of colourful names in my time but I took the comments from where they come, idiots :p :

[Valve Bounce]

I find it astonishing that Kumble tried to meet with Ponting to settle the "Monke racial Slur" issue after the third day's play without going to the Match umpire/referee: http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/1,9191,23030464-11088,00.html

If Harbhajan had not uttered the slur, why would that have been necessary?

The French have a saying:" Qui s'excuse, s'accuse!! "

The spelling might be a bit out, but I think you get the drift.

Is it possible that Harbhajan told a porker to Tendulkar, Kumble and then his team? After all, he even denied that he made the slur in Mumbai and denied that Symonds sought him out after that ganme and he apologised.

This is stretching his story to the limits of trustworthiness.

[NinjaMaster]

I still can't get my head around where the monkey jibe is racist against Symonds. I can't see that Indian would make fun of the colour of his skin, which is a similar colour to theirs. As far as I can gather, it is more to do with his physical appearance (zinc around the lips and his 'ape-like' figure) that would draw such a description, one that I could understand. And as for the Indian crowd and their monkey antics, I see that the same as the "(insert name here) is a ****er" chants that we get at the cricket in Australia. Ignore the people who aren't good enough to play and have to watch and get on with it.

On the Harbhajan penalty, if he did say anything after their was an agreement that the monkey term was off-limits, then he deserves to be punished.

[555-04Q2]

I still can't get my head around where the monkey jibe is racist against Symonds.

Sadly, people of "colour" are often refered to as monkeys ( soccer fans are famous for this abuse and for making monkey noises at visiting players of "colour" ) , hence the racial issue :(

[NinjaMaster]

Sadly, people of "colour" are often refered to as monkeys ( soccer fans are famous for this abuse and for making monkey noises at visiting players of "colour" ) , hence the racial issue :(
I'm aware of that but when the people launching the jibe are of a similar colour makes me think that it isn't about his skin. That's how I read it anyway.

[Valve Bounce]

Perhaps it is a personal jibe rather than just colour.

[NinjaMaster]

Possibly but the only explanation in the media has been racism which doesn't wash with me. Hopefully it can all be sorted out in a transparent and just manner and everyone can get on with doing what we want them to - playing competitive cricket.

[Ranger]

Perhaps it is a personal jibe rather than just colour.

This monkey business is ridiculous. One can only imagine what sort of strife Lewis Hamilton would've got into with the Cricket administrators, after called half the F1 grid "monkeys" - and they're from all different racial backgrounds! :D

My personal feeling is that it all just fits in with the whole "sticks and stones" moral lesson, but then again i'm not really exposed to racism and its effects where I live.

[Valve Bounce]

This monkey business is ridiculous. One can only imagine what sort of strife Lewis Hamilton would've got into with the Cricket administrators, after called half the F1 grid "monkeys" - and they're from all different racial backgrounds! :D

My personal feeling is that it all just fits in with the whole "sticks and stones" moral lesson, but then again i'm not really exposed to racism and its effects where I live.


I think the monkey taunts from the spectators puts the whole monkey jibe into a different category. It becomes a personal insult because of race and colour.

[Storm]

Thats what I always thought....this monkey being a racist term and the chants all come from England and European football issues....
Calling someone a monkey in India is common from playgrounds of KG to adults alike...and more like calling someone a jerk or an idiot...we even call it in reference of someone who is upto some tomfoolery etc as being monkey activities (free translation)

[Valve Bounce]

Thats what I always thought....this monkey being a racist term and the chants all come from England and European football issues....
Calling someone a monkey in India is common from playgrounds of KG to adults alike...and more like calling someone a jerk or an idiot...we even call it in reference of someone who is upto some tomfoolery etc as being monkey activities (free translation)

I was hoping that somebody else would have responded. You are right in that we do have a conflict of cultures here. Call somebody a "ba$tard" in Australia and you will elicit a response depending on how it is delivered. That term can be used as a term of endearment (as was claimed in a footy tribunal hearing some years ago) to an insult depending on the tone used; but certainly not a serious insult. If a footballer kicks the ball to a member of the opposing team who then kicks a goal, calling him "you stupid ba$tard" is most appropriate. Same with the term monkey if used in the context when a child is mischievous.

However, when the taunt monkey is used in the tone, and context and background of the monkey taunts in the last ODI tour of India, there is little doubt that it was personal as well as racial, especially when it is consistantly and exclusively used against the only coloured player in the Australian team.

[Daniel]

I was hoping that somebody else would have responded. You are right in that we do have a conflict of cultures here. Call somebody a "ba$tard" in Australia and you will elicit a response depending on how it is delivered. That term can be used as a term of endearment (as was claimed in a footy tribunal hearing some years ago) to an insult depending on the tone used; but certainly not a serious insult. If a footballer kicks the ball to a member of the opposing team who then kicks a goal, calling him "you stupid ba$tard" is most appropriate. Same with the term monkey if used in the context when a child is mischievous.

However, when the taunt monkey is used in the tone, and context and background of the monkey taunts in the last ODI tour of India, there is little doubt that it was personal as well as racial, especially when it is consistantly and exclusively used against the only coloured player in the Australian team.
I think you're being a bit self righteous and trying to interpret things as an Australian. A while ago Knock On went off quite stupidly when someone referred to Steve Irwin as a "larrakin". Now all of us Australians know that's a fairly affectionate term and most australians wouldn't be insulted to be called one. But apparently it has a different meaning here in blightly. When you interpret words you need to interpret them through the eyes of the person saying them. Not your own or you end up looking like an idiot or taking offence to a possibly harmless remark :)

[Valve Bounce]

I think you're being a bit self righteous and trying to interpret things as an Australian. A while ago Knock On went off quite stupidly when someone referred to Steve Irwin as a "larrakin". Now all of us Australians know that's a fairly affectionate term and most australians wouldn't be insulted to be called one. But apparently it has a different meaning here in blightly. When you interpret words you need to interpret them through the eyes of the person saying them. Not your own or you end up looking like an idiot or taking offence to a possibly harmless remark :)


Daniel, you don't know my background, where I was brought up, where I studied, and in which countries I worked (there are eleven), so your assessment that I am "a bit self righteous and trying to interpret things as an Australian" may be well off the mark.

Words in different countries have different connotations: for example, a rascal in PNG is a person who is extremely evil.

[Jaws]

Cripes! I just woke up from a really weird dream. I dreamt that a guy got suspended for 3 games for calling an Aussie a Monkey. Few lucky it was only a dream because I'd hate to think the WHOLE WORLD HAS GONE SOFT

Cheers :beer: and by the way, the Aussies acted like a bunch of knobs on the last day.

[Daniel]

Daniel, you don't know my background, where I was brought up, where I studied, and in which countries I worked (there are eleven), so your assessment that I am "a bit self righteous and trying to interpret things as an Australian" may be well off the mark.

Words in different countries have different connotations: for example, a rascal in PNG is a person who is extremely evil.
I don't know your background and frankly it doesn't matter :) You're interpreting it as an Australian and wanting to see the worst by the looks of it.

[Valve Bounce]

I don't know your background and frankly it doesn't matter :) You're interpreting it as an Australian and wanting to see the worst by the looks of it.


Well, having seen the monkey taunts by the crowd at Mumbai, both on still pics and from TV footage, how do you regard the monkey taunt?

[Valve Bounce]

As far as Insults and Taunts go, it often depends on the language it is delivered and the manner it is said.

For example, if you were in the Voting Members' Box of the Royal HK Jockey Club (known as the Hong Kong Jockey Club now) and the horse you were given a tip by a trainer was beaten, and you yelled in Chinese "copulate your mother", few people would bat an eyelid. But if you looked the trainer in the eye and slowly and deliberately repeated the same phrase, the fellow would probably deliver a kung fu kick at you between your big toes, and then you will find yourself frog marched out of the Voting Members' Box with your host warned never to invite you again.

So it's all in the manner of delivery, how it is perceived and taken by the person you taunt or insult.

Calling someone a monkey has many connotations, depending on who you call, the circumstances of the jibe, and how it is received. Call child a monkey could mean he is mischievous or funny. Call a person who looks different a monkey, with an ape like taunt in the background could easily be interpreted as saying the person is an ape.

I hope I have clarified my interpretation of this whole thing.

[Jaws]

As far as Insults and Taunts go, it often depends on the language it is delivered and the manner it is said.

For example, if you were in the Voting Members' Box of the Royal HK Jockey Club (known as the Hong Kong Jockey Club now) and the horse you were given a tip by a trainer was beaten, and you yelled in Chinese "copulate your mother", few people would bat an eyelid. But if you looked the trainer in the eye and slowly and deliberately repeated the same phrase, the fellow would probably deliver a kung fu kick at you between your big toes, and then you will find yourself frog marched out of the Voting Members' Box with your host warned never to invite you again.

So it's all in the manner of delivery, how it is perceived and taken by the person you taunt or insult.

Calling someone a monkey has many connotations, depending on who you call, the circumstances of the jibe, and how it is received. Call child a monkey could mean he is mischievous or funny. Call a person who looks different a monkey, with an ape like taunt in the background could easily be interpreted as saying the person is an ape.

I hope I have clarified my interpretation of this whole thing.

Valve, I think you're right but I still think the action taken by the Aussies is akin to a schoolchild running to the teacher. Racism is disgusting but Symonds is a big boy now and he should have laughed at Singh and said "Is that the best you've got?" Settle it on the field. I still think the Aussies were smarting from the lack of action taken in India and wanted some sort of revenge.

[Valve Bounce]

Valve, I think you're right but I still think the action taken by the Aussies is akin to a schoolchild running to the teacher. Racism is disgusting but Symonds is a big boy now and he should have laughed at Singh and said "Is that the best you've got?" Settle it on the field. I still think the Aussies were smarting from the lack of action taken in India and wanted some sort of revenge.


From my perspective, not so much as an Australian citizen as I am now, but what I've had to face throughout my life before I became an Australian as well as since, I can only say that racism has to be stopped in its tracks. If reporting Harbhagin sends a clear signal throughout the cricket world, including to spectators worldwide, then I am all for it. Racism should never be tolerated and if settling it on the field means a temporary excuse for it, I condemn it. Sure, when someone king hit me on the head in a rugby field as I went in for a scrum, I'm willing to settle that on the field - but not racial abuse.

[Camelopard]

Interesting article in yesterday's "Australian" newspaper. I wonder who leaked the report?

" 'Tendulkar couldn't have heard abuse' "

"A LEAKED document from the Harbhajan Singh code of conduct hearing has proved false Sachin Tendulkar's claim that he was within earshot when Andrew Symonds was called a "monkey"."

"The Indians complained bitterly that the word of Symonds and two other Australian players was accepted over that of Harbhajan and Tendulkar in the hearing after the Sydney Test. "

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23110030-5013406,00.html

[Storm]

Whats the point of calling a black/mixed race guy a monkey when the people who are calling him that themselves (us Indians) are not white ?
Then it only means a mild insult of someone who you think is a jerk or someone who you want to provoke..
anyways looks like the next 2 tests have gone on peacefully....not that thats a lot of much fun :p :

[Malbec]

An Indian friend of mine found out what was said. Apparently the Hindi word monkey wasn't used, neither was the comment made racist but it was EXTREMELY offensive.

I thought the Aussies would have approved, it was fine sledging behaviour.

[Daniel]

Fair go mate! An Australian would never say something insulting to gain an advantage on the field and they would never falsely accuse another team of racial abuse. Oh wait yes they would :laugh:

[Valve Bounce]

An Indian friend of mine found out what was said. Apparently the Hindi word monkey wasn't used, neither was the comment made racist but it was EXTREMELY offensive.

I thought the Aussies would have approved, it was fine sledging behaviour.

I have always felt uneasy that the entire incident was initiated/provoked by Symonds after Harbadjhan had made a complimentary remark and gesture to Brett Lee.

That having been said, the remark referred to by Dylan may be offensive in some cultures, but in many others, like Cantonese for instance, it is simply a remark of little significance.

Under the circumstances, the ACA, viewing the whole episode leading to a loss of some $60 million took the pragmatic course of action, in my opinion. I think the whole thing should be laid to rest, and let Harbadjhan carry on as Team Patron of the new Indian F1 team as I have mentioned in the F1 forum.

[Camelopard]

Anyone esle smell a rat?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/31/2151578.htm

"... the ICC was left red-faced when Justice Hansen revealed Harbhajan got away lightly because officials informed him of only one of the player's four prior offences."

Four prior offences and the person investigating this was not told?????

[Valve Bounce]

Anyone esle smell a rat?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/31/2151578.htm

"... the ICC was left red-faced when Justice Hansen revealed Harbhajan got away lightly because officials informed him of only one of the player's four prior offences."

Four prior offences and the person investigating this was not told?????

Nah!! they forgot!! they have a memory similar to a monkey's. :rolleyes:

[Daniel]

Nah!! they forgot!! they have a memory similar to a monkey's. :rolleyes:
No worse than the Australian's sense of hearing :rotflmao:

[Daniel]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/31/2151208.htm


Cricket Australia chief executive James Sutherland said he was upset Harbhajan had escaped suspension. "Fair go mate. Our blokes lied fair dinkum about what that dark feller said and nothing bloody well happened. We thought it was bonzer when he go that three match suspension but this is just ridiculous. You can't make something up about a guy and then be disproven and have him not get penalised. It's just not cricket mate

[harsha]

I have always felt uneasy that the entire incident was initiated/provoked by Symonds after Harbadjhan had made a complimentary remark and gesture to Brett Lee.

why wasn't Symonds not penalised....in my book,Harbhajan's got a pretty strong case for defamation against Symonds even taking into consideration that Harbhajan was extremely lucky to get away with it