Schumi departure allows Ferrari to finally start racing again?

[jjanicke]

http://www.f1racing.net/en/news/2007/01/08/todt_wants_driver_rivalry_at_ferrari/

Seems like a good sign to me. Todt will actually let his drivers race each other.

Maybe this team is turning for the better of the sport.

[ioan]

Nothing new there.

They always allowed drivers to battle it out as long as that didn't obstruct winning the titles.

http://www.f1racing.net/en/news/2007/01/08/todt_wants_driver_rivalry_at_ferrari/

Seems like a good sign to me. Todt will actually let his drivers race each other.

Maybe this team is turning for the better of the sport.

Maybe, although I read it as being a case of "you two race until we say you don't".......which is just the same as before and just the same as any other team.

But congratulations on your first attempt at a bash of the new year, even if there is no substance to it.

[jjanicke]

lol... a bash hey!

I was actually applauding it. But anyway!

I read into it that Todt would allow them to race as long as they didn't take points away from Ferrari.

I read into it that Todt would allow them to race as long as they didn't take points away from Ferrari.

And I would say that has been exactly the same as in previous seasons.

[jjanicke]

Nothing new there.

They always allowed drivers to battle it out as long as that didn't obstruct winning the titles.


really? History says otherwise.

[jjanicke]

And I would say that has been exactly the same as in previous seasons.

you would even say that with a Ferrari 1-2 or a Ferrari 2-1, ala Austria and USA?

[Hawkmoon]

Which ever driver has the ascendency by the end of the first quarter will become the focus for the championship. Unless ofcourse, they are first and second and nobody else is close. Then I expect they will battle it out.

Neither driver has earned No. 1 status. Schumi did by winning 2 world titles before joining the team. McLaren are in exactly the same boat that Ferrari were in in '96. Alonso has earnt No. 1 status and will get it, no matter whar Ol' Ron says.

So I'd say it's business as usual at Maranello. They're just waiting to see who grabs the No.1 spot. The expectation is probably for Raikkonen to ascend to that position but I don't think it will be easy for him, especially if Massa keeps improving the way he has.

[Hawkmoon]

you would even say that with a Ferrari 1-2 or a Ferrari 2-1, ala Austria and USA?

Austria I will give you as that was obviously team orders. But the US one was a stuff-up on Schumi's part. It had nothing to do with the team. The title was already won, anyway.

[agwiii]

http://www.f1racing.net/en/news/2007/01/08/todt_wants_driver_rivalry_at_ferrari/

Seems like a good sign to me. Todt will actually let his drivers race each other.

Maybe this team is turning for the better of the sport.

This is as it has always been. You distorted the story by making up your own story heading instead of the author's, which is "Todt wants driver rivalry at Ferrari."

[Valve Bounce]

lol... a bash hey!

I was actually applauding it. But anyway!

I read into it that Todt would allow them to race as long as they didn't take points away from Ferrari.


Actually, a bash also means a great New Year party, so I hope you had a good bash. :)

But don't drink as much as Kimi :p :

[jjanicke]

Which ever driver has the ascendency by the end of the first quarter will become the focus for the championship. Unless ofcourse, they are first and second and nobody else is close. Then I expect they will battle it out.

Neither driver has earned No. 1 status. Schumi did by winning 2 world titles before joining the team. McLaren are in exactly the same boat that Ferrari were in in '96. Alonso has earnt No. 1 status and will get it, no matter whar Ol' Ron says.

So I'd say it's business as usual at Maranello. They're just waiting to see who grabs the No.1 spot. The expectation is probably for Raikkonen to ascend to that position but I don't think it will be easy for him, especially if Massa keeps improving the way he has.

I don't think it will business as usual. You even mention that Michael earned #1 status prior to joining Ferrari. This alone tells me that they drivers were predilected to not race each other.

In the article Todt mentions that he "free to duel". I can't remember an instance during the MS era where these words were spoken.



Austria I will give you as that was obviously team orders. But the US one was a stuff-up on Schumi's part. It had nothing to do with the team. The title was already won, anyway.



Fair enough.

[agwiii]

In the article Todt mentions that he "free to duel". I can't remember an instance during the MS era where these words were spoken.

In the past, the point was moot because of the disparity in the ability of the other drivers. In 2007, the situation has changed.

[mstillhere]

I would like to know who in his right mind would sacrifice champioship points and having both cars destroyed just for the sake of the fun of driving. Let's not forget the huge financial interests that all these teams have in this "sport", in terms of investments and, most importantly, revenue. And, I would bet you, Ferrari bashers with very selective memory, that if you owned a F1 team you would do exactly the same. The ultime goal is this sport is victory.

[Ranger]

Can't imagine either of them following orders to stay behind the other one though, considering they both want to be champion. Massa has put huge pressure on himself before the season has started and Kimi has been in contention for 2 WDC's already, outperfoming title contending drivers in the process. I can imagine there being an emerging #1 driver throughout the season, but I can't imagine either driver surrendering positions because he was told to by the higher order at Ferrari.

[ioan]

really? History says otherwise.

You need to go back to the books mate.

Eddie, Rubens and Felipe were all allowed to stay in front of Michael when they were in faster and when and when there was no clear favorite for the title.

[ioan]

...but I can't imagine either driver surrendering positions because he was told to by the higher order at Ferrari.

Than LDM will show them the door.

We need to stay realistic, Ferrari is more important and bigger than either Felipe's or Kimi's ego.

[ArrowsFA1]

2007 is a very different situation to that which Ferrari faced in 1996, and Todt's comments reflect that.

Felipe has the advantage of working with Ferrari for a few years, while Kimi comes to Maranello with the reputation as a future champion. Both have the opportunity to 'lead' the team and it will be fascinating to see who gets the upper hand over the course of the season.

[agwiii]

2007 is a very different situation to that which Ferrari faced in 1996, and Todt's comments reflect that. Felipe has the advantage of working with Ferrari for a few years, while Kimi comes to Maranello with the reputation as a future champion. Both have the opportunity to 'lead' the team and it will be fascinating to see who gets the upper hand over the course of the season.

In the past, the point was moot because of the disparity in the ability of the other drivers. In 2007, the situation has changed.

[ArrowsFA1]

In 2007, the situation has changed.
Agreed :s mokin:

So who is going to come out on top? Kimi or Felipe?

[Hawkmoon]

I don't think it will business as usual. You even mention that Michael earned #1 status prior to joining Ferrari. This alone tells me that they drivers were predilected to not race each other.

In the article Todt mentions that he "free to duel". I can't remember an instance during the MS era where these words were spoken.






Fair enough.

I say it's business as usual in that once a clear No.1 is established Ferrari will play their usual team game. The only difference between this year and the last decade is that they don't have a clear No.1.

I believe it will probably take 6 or 7 races until the order is established.

[ShiftingGears]

I'm assuming Raikkonen would be placed number 1 in this situation, but what would happen in the unlikely event that they are dead even after the first several races?

[fly_ac]

Like in any other team they will be allowed to race each other to establish their positions within the team and championship, then team orders will be the order of the day, like in any other team.

you would even say that with a Ferrari 1-2 or a Ferrari 2-1, ala Austria and USA?

Yes, I would.

The decision to pull Rubens over in Austria was for the benefit, first and foremost, of Ferrari. It wasn't taken because Michael had a friendship with Ross Brawn or Jean Todt, it was taken for what the Ferrari management saw as the best for the team.

You can argue against the merits of that decision, you can loathe it if you want, but you can't deny it was Ferrari's decision to make.

They wanted the drivers championship and it was they who had taken the decision that their best hope of that was Michael Schumacher.

The Austria 02 decision was most likely taken before the start of the season, whereas with the current situation regarding Ferrari drivers the decision will most likely not be made until the management have firm evidence that one driver is better than the other....but the decision will still be taken.

Nothing in what Todt said yesterday suggests that they wouldn't come to a similar conclusion, the only difference being that the 'call' won't be made over the pit-to-car radio in the future but in the motorhome or offices at Maranello.

So, like I said, there is nothing new.

[agwiii]

Actually, a bash also means a great New Year party, so I hope you had a good bash. :) But don't drink as much as Kimi :p :

LOL

[agwiii]

Agreed :s mokin:

So who is going to come out on top? Kimi or Felipe?

I believe we will see some very close racing! :s mokin:

[Sleeper]

Personnally I believe that Kimi will walk all over Felipe, he hasnt shown to have the speed that the liks of Schumi, Kimi and Alonso have.

[schmenke]

Like any team the drivers will be permitted to race each other until a point in the season when one has a significant lead over the other in the points standing. The focus of the team will then be to support the leader for the WDC.

Kimi will quickly emerge as the dominent driver. Mass IMO has always been one of the most over-rated drivers in F1.

[Sirius]

You need to go back to the books mate.

Michael's first race with Ferrari was the Australian GP at Melbourne in 1996. Eddie Irvine outqualified Michael to everyone's surprise, that is to everyone except Eddie of course!

Guess what happened during the early stages of the race? Eddie was ahead of Michael and when Michael closed in on Eddie he effortlessly passed him. I would be more likely to say that Eddie let him by without a fight. It was all for not because Michael went on to retire and Eddie claimed third spot on the podium. A well deserved result for Eddie.

I believe it was after this race that Eddie was promptly told to go on his famous vacation while Michael tested for days on end to come to grips with the car.

Sirius

[Mark in Oshawa]

Team orders are one of the things I hate the most about racing. If the number one guy is the best, let him prove it every day against every competitor, including one's teammate. That said, the teammates should't be taking each other out either.

[Big Ben]

It's just a matter of time... soon enough one will fall behind and the other will get the nº 1 status... but at least now it's not the driver who decides who's gone be that nº 1. I'm pretty sure KR doesn't need that... Now, without Schumacher, I think I could actually support a ferarri driver (this only if it's going to be 2002 season reloaded or something like that)

P.S. I typed worst f1 accident in youtube.com and found 3 results: a joke, tom pryce's accident and a schumacher tribute :) )

[jjanicke]

You need to go back to the books mate.

Eddie, Rubens and Felipe were all allowed to stay in front of Michael when they were in faster and when and when there was no clear favorite for the title.

Really? It didn't appear that way in Austria!!! And that's the obvious one.

[jjanicke]

Yes, I would.

The decision to pull Rubens over in Austria was for the benefit, first and foremost, of Ferrari. It wasn't taken because Michael had a friendship with Ross Brawn or Jean Todt, it was taken for what the Ferrari management saw as the best for the team.

You can argue against the merits of that decision, you can loathe it if you want, but you can't deny it was Ferrari's decision to make.

They wanted the drivers championship and it was they who had taken the decision that their best hope of that was Michael Schumacher.

The Austria 02 decision was most likely taken before the start of the season, whereas with the current situation regarding Ferrari drivers the decision will most likely not be made until the management have firm evidence that one driver is better than the other....but the decision will still be taken.

Nothing in what Todt said yesterday suggests that they wouldn't come to a similar conclusion, the only difference being that the 'call' won't be made over the pit-to-car radio in the future but in the motorhome or offices at Maranello.

So, like I said, there is nothing new.


How can you agrue is wasn't Ferarri's decision. That's just silly.

Austria was solely to the benefit of MS, no one else.

Look at the rest of the races (after Austria, race #6), and it appears Rubens had just a likely a chance as MS to take the title, if Ferrari didn't interfere.

[jjanicke]

Michael's first race with Ferrari was the Australian GP at Melbourne in 1996. Eddie Irvine outqualified Michael to everyone's surprise, that is to everyone except Eddie of course!

Guess what happened during the early stages of the race? Eddie was ahead of Michael and when Michael closed in on Eddie he effortlessly passed him. I would be more likely to say that Eddie let him by without a fight. It was all for not because Michael went on to retire and Eddie claimed third spot on the podium. A well deserved result for Eddie.

I believe it was after this race that Eddie was promptly told to go on his famous vacation while Michael tested for days on end to come to grips with the car.

Sirius

Thank you. :up:

How can you agrue is wasn't Ferarri's decision. That's just silly.

Austria was solely to the benefit of MS, no one else.

May I kindly suggest that you learn to read before posting a reply to a post?

I stated that it was Ferrari's decision, not Michael Schumacher's.

The outcome of the Austria 02 decision benefitted Michael Schumacher, but it was a Ferrari decision, not a Michael Schumacher one.

It therefore was taken to benefit Ferrari.

Not difficult to understand.

[jjanicke]

May I kindly suggest that you learn to read before posting a reply to a post?

I stated that it was Ferrari's decision, not Michael Schumacher's.

The outcome of the Austria 02 decision benefitted Michael Schumacher, but it was a Ferrari decision, not a Michael Schumacher one.

It therefore was taken to benefit Ferrari.

Not difficult to understand.

What makes you believe I suggested it was Michaels decision?

Perhaps you are the one who should learn to read before posting a reply to a post.

I could reiterate what I've said... but why don't you go back and read instead.

How can you agrue is wasn't Ferarri's decision. That's just silly.

Austria was solely to the benefit of MS, no one else.

There, in your own words, you are trying to say that I am arguing it wasn't Ferrari's decision.

I never said anything of the sort. You misread the post.

You are also claiming that Austria 02 was solely to the benefit of Michael.

That, by your own definition, means you believe it wasn't to the benefit of Ferrari.

Yet it was their decision. So either you believe that Ferrari make decisions that are not to their benefit, or you have got very confused.

I suggest the latter.

[jjanicke]

There, in your own words, you are trying to say that I am arguing it wasn't Ferrari's decision.

I never said anything of the sort. You misread the post.

You are also claiming that Austria 02 was solely to the benefit of Michael.

That, by your own definition, means you believe it wasn't to the benefit of Ferrari.

Yet it was their decision. So either you believe that Ferrari make decisions that are not to their benefit, or you have got very confused.

I suggest the latter.


LOL, I'm thoroughly confused now.

How about not assuming/interpreting what I'm saying and just reading the letter of the word.

P.S. I never claimed MS made the decision. I'm mearly pointing out that Ferrari didn't allow their drivers to race (each other) during the schumacher era.

LOL, I'm thoroughly confused now.

How about not assuming/interpreting what I'm saying and just reading the letter of the word.

P.S. I never claimed MS made the decision.

No, but you wrote (note that - wrote, not implied) that the only beneficiary was Michael Schumacher. You wrote that nobody else benefitted.

That is utter codswallop.

Ferrari made the decision for the benefit of Ferrari, first, foremost and before anybody else's benefit was taken into consideration. Ferrari, as Michael Schumacher's employers, wanted to win the WDC and had decided that the best option to achieve that was to use team-orders to promote Michael's chances as they saw him as the best option to achieve their goal.

It's straight-forward and obvious.

It is also exactly what they will do this time round. They will make the decision who they believe is the best option/bet for the WDC and they will implement orders to that effect.

The only difference is they may wait until the season is underway, whereas with Michael on the team the decision had already been taken before the start of the season. That said, it wouldn't surprise me if the management at Ferrari have already made a decision with regards to who is the best option for a WDC challenge.

All the same, Ferrari will still use a Number One/Number Two policy as they see fit. Note that...as they see fit. No driver will have a say other than in terms of on-track performance......which is exactly the same as it was with Schumi in the team. If you have any evidence to the contrary, such as details of contracts, please show us. Until then, you'll have to accept what everybody involved in the Schumi era at Ferrari has said all along...Michael did not have Number One staus written into his contract.

Without evidence to the contrary, but with plenty of evidence to support what the Ferrari management said, you have to accept that Michael's Number One status was earned on the track.

Perhaps if you took your blinkers off (Michael's retired now, so you really don't need them anymore) and looked at the bigger picture things would start to make more sense.

If you don't want to take your blinkers off, be prepared for people to take your ill-thought statements to pieces on a regular basis.

[fly_ac]

I agree with Tamburello on this. :up:

People tend to have a go at the top teams, but as the top teams does so does the lower order team, when it comes to a decision to the team advantage.

I'l repeat what I have said before:Like in any other team they will be allowed to race each other to establish their positions within the team and championship, then team orders will be the order of the day, like in any other team.

[Big Ben]

I think that even the way they announced it makes you think it wasn't always like that.