Toyota Issues F1 Ultimatum

[CNR]

http://www.fastmachines.com/archives/f1/004725.php


Two years to improve, or were done. At least that’s the way I interpret the message team principal Tadashi Yamashina’s been given.

[janneppi]

I would think it's more like two years to make a good result, or he's out. :)

[Hotlavaaaa]

2009 might not be a good year for Yamashina if Toyota have problems with the new slicks like they had problems with the spec grooves. Going into the second year of this rules package hopefully they can right whatever problems the TF107 had and find some pace.

[philipbain]

Toyota's loyalty to F1 is a wierd issue at the moment as their marketing is apparently benefiting from thier involvment in F1 despite thier lack of results, but it would be easy to summise that the sheer amount of budget they are pumping into the team can't be sustained indefinately without results. A possible way forward may be to increase thier support of the Williams team who last season easilly beat the Toyota works team using Toyota engines on a fraction of the budget, a great example of how a true racing team wins out against a corporate racing team I guess! A Toyota backed Williams team (complete with Toyota resources and cash) has all the potential to be a real contender in the way that the works team have never been. This will provide Toyota with the marketing ability to piggy-back the legacy and history of winning that the Williams team have and at the same time have a much more cost-effective presence in grand prix racing. This isnt unprecidented, Renault had entered F1 with a works team but when sustained success became illusive they became an engine partner with guess who - thats right, Williams!

[janneppi]

Well, in 2210 Frank Williams will be almost 109 years old and his team is ripe for the plucking for company such as Toyota. first two years it might be Williams Toyota, then Toyota-Williams and finally Toyota, unless I'm wrong, which is a good possibility. ;)

[wroom]

Well, in 2210 Frank Williams will be almost 109 years old and his team is ripe for the plucking for company such as Toyota. ;)

Hehe :D By 2210 Sir Frank will be a lot older than 109 and quite likely to have retired already ;) Then again, you can never tell.. he might be out there racing Renault with Ralf as his No 1 driver.. and Pedro de La Rosa hot on the heels of getting a race seat.

[markabilly]

Well, in 2210 Frank Williams will be almost 109 years old and his team is ripe for the plucking for company such as Toyota. first two years it might be Williams Toyota, then Toyota-Williams and finally Toyota, unless I'm wrong, which is a good possibility. ;)
All Toyota needs is what ferrari and mac have ...which is some great engineers who know how to cheat and not get caught too often...or a computer that still uses floppy discs :D

I think that a team that has the right attitude about such will do well, a willingness and capacity to engineer the best car but simply buying out a team with a big name, does not necessarily equate with success...

[mstillhere]

All Toyota needs is what ferrari and mac have ...which is some great engineers who know how to cheat and not get caught too often...or a computer that still uses floppy discs :D

I think that a team that has the right attitude about such will do well, a willingness and capacity to engineer the best car but simply buying out a team with a big name, does not necessarily equate with success...

Even on the last day of the year you have to drag Ferrari in the mud. Let me assure you that McLaren by itself would stand beautifully in the mud.

[Valve Bounce]

There must be an agenda for Nakajima to be racing at Williams. I havn't figured it out yet, but I'm almost getting there.

[CCFanatic]

All Toyota needs is what ferrari and mac have ...which is some great engineers who know how to cheat and not get caught too often...or a computer that still uses floppy discs :D

I think that a team that has the right attitude about such will do well, a willingness and capacity to engineer the best car but simply buying out a team with a big name, does not necessarily equate with success...

Didn't Toyota already get into trouble for having Ferrari inof a few years ago? I remember their 2003 cars look very similar.

[Mark]

They did indeed but no action was taken against them. Unlike in rallying where they got banned.

[Cozzie]

Toyota's loyalty to F1 is a wierd issue at the moment as their marketing is apparently benefiting from thier involvment in F1 despite thier lack of results, but it would be easy to summise that the sheer amount of budget they are pumping into the team can't be sustained indefinately without results. A possible way forward may be to increase thier support of the Williams team who last season easilly beat the Toyota works team using Toyota engines on a fraction of the budget, a great example of how a true racing team wins out against a corporate racing team I guess! A Toyota backed Williams team (complete with Toyota resources and cash) has all the potential to be a real contender in the way that the works team have never been. This will provide Toyota with the marketing ability to piggy-back the legacy and history of winning that the Williams team have and at the same time have a much more cost-effective presence in grand prix racing. This isnt unprecidented, Renault had entered F1 with a works team but when sustained success became illusive they became an engine partner with guess who - thats right, Williams!

I couldn't agree with you more! :)

[Hotlavaaaa]

They did indeed but no action was taken against them. Unlike in rallying where they got banned.

They weren't banned from the WRC for stealing information, but for an illegal part of their own design. Here's the details of what Max Mosely called "the most ingenious thing I have seen in 30 years of motorsport."

http://homepage.virgin.net/shalco.com/tte_ban.htm

[mstillhere]

They did indeed but no action was taken against them. Unlike in rallying where they got banned.

True. However in the trial in the real world the two Ferrari engineers involved in the scandal were sentenced to jail (I am not too sure for how long, though).

[Ranger]

This is Toyota futility.

They were on the brink of success in 2005 when they had Mike Gascoyne... So what did they do??

I would certainly like to see a Toyota-funded Williams team - the only way Toyota will get to the front in the next 10 years.

[wmcot]

Looks like they finally realized that they have to do more than pump an endless supply of money into the team. Maybe if they could find some stability with the drivers and team personnel they might accomplish more. A little "head hunting" of other teams' top people couldn't hurt them, either!

[SGWilko]

Looks like they finally realized that they have to do more than pump an endless supply of money into the team. Maybe if they could find some stability with the drivers and team personnel they might accomplish more. A little "head hunting" of other teams' top people couldn't hurt them, either!

They have done that in the past with Mike Gascoigne, but decisions in the Toyota F1 team do not happen quickly. Effectively Mikes hands were tied.

If Toyota cannot remedy the decision making process, they are wasting their time.

Actions speak louder than words....

[Valve Bounce]

True. However in the trial in the real world the two Ferrari engineers involved in the scandal were sentenced to jail (I am not too sure for how long, though).


This leads me to ask whether Stepney could be forced to return to Italy to face the charges; and if the answer is yes, whether he could flee to Canada or Argentina or Panama or Cyprus and be safe from prosecution. I'm just curious, that's all.

[Garry Walker]

As long as Toyota keeps hiring idiotic managers, they will keep sucking.

[SGWilko]

As long as Toyota keeps hiring idiotic managers, they will keep sucking.

It's not quite that simple. The owners - TOYOTA - have their own way of working, that works great for making and selling cars, but is lousy in the realm of F1 team management.

And when they have been told about this, what do they do? Just ask Mike Gascoigne........

[ArrowsFA1]

It's funny to see Toyota's words at the launch of their 2007 car:

John Howett:


"It is too early to talk about world championships and the first major challenge we have is to achieve that first elusive win. And that really is the target we have for 2007.
"We set ourselves extremely challenging targets. It was clear in 2006 we under delivered and our results were unsatisfactory. We take heart from the fact that we started slow, finished quick but had too many reliability problems.
"But we are creating a world class team which will help us achieve our aim of winning a race this year."

Perhaps they'll use the same script for the 2008 car :dozey:

[Garry Walker]

It's not quite that simple. The owners - TOYOTA - have their own way of working, that works great for making and selling cars, but is lousy in the realm of F1 team management.

And when they have been told about this, what do they do? Just ask Mike Gascoigne........

Great leaders and organizations adapt and change. Toyota hasnt been able to achieve that.

NB: Toyota makes ****ty cars.

[trumperZ06]

Great leaders and organizations adapt and change. Toyota hasnt been able to achieve that.

TRUE !!!

NB: Toyota makes ****ty cars.

:dozey: Uninteresting cars... prehaps...

But there has been NOTHING wrong with Toyota's reliability or marketing approach !!!

[Malbec]

Toyota's loyalty to F1 is a wierd issue at the moment as their marketing is apparently benefiting from thier involvment in F1 despite thier lack of results, but it would be easy to summise that the sheer amount of budget they are pumping into the team can't be sustained indefinately without results.

I find this logic a little odd. I know Toyota claim that F1 is working because they're selling more cars in Europe but that is at least partly due to a wholesale revamp of their car range aimed at young Europeans. The Aygo and Yaris are much better than the small car they replaced (so boring I can't even remember its name). The Prius and other Toyota hybrids are selling well in cities where they are exempt from congestion charges. I know several people who don't know or care who is in F1 but have bought Toyotas when they wouldn't have considered them before simply based on looking at the product.

On the flip side, Renault saw sales drop in Spain in the years Alonso took the world title with them. Since Barcelona saw ticket sales go through the roof during the same period clearly more Spaniards were aware of brand Renault through Alonso but it didn't work out in extra sales. Personally I think its because the Clio was nearing replacement age and losing sales to rivals during those years, I suspect Renault sales increased when Alonso switched to McLaren just because they released the new Clio then.

I think the problem is that car makers will always be able to make an argument to stay or leave and will massage the numbers to support their decision. As a recent Atlas/autosport article suggested previously car makers left F1 either when they thought they won everything in sight and hadn't anything left to gain or by not being able to afford carrying on like Ford. Toyota will always be able to afford F1 but they haven't been successful, if they leave they'll set a dangerous precedent, that participation on its own in F1 isn't worthwhile regardless of its affordability.

[Malbec]

Great leaders and organizations adapt and change. Toyota hasnt been able to achieve that.

NB: Toyota makes ****ty cars.

But Toyota have never made a loss since it was established and is now the largest manufacturer in the world. Their system works for roadcars, just not in F1.