Honda wants budget caps

[ioan]

Honda Racing CEO Nick Fry recently held discussions with new team principal Ross Brawn about the future direction of F1, and both feel that a budget cap is a realistic answer to solving the cost issues in F1.

"Ross and I both think that an overall budget cap is something that should be seriously investigated," Fry told autosport.com. "What we see at the moment, if you look at the accounts of any of the UK F1 teams, is that the costs keep going up.

"So far what we have been successfully doing is moving money from one area of the team to another. Money is certainly moved from engines to aerodynamics, because that is the next best area of performance advantage.

"We support a lot of the proposals on the aero restrictions, but the fear is that that money will merely be diverted elsewhere. It will go to driver salaries or engineer salaries, or some other part of the car, but will not necessarily reduce the total bill that a team has to pay.

"So rather than chasing our tails, we think we should be considering an overall budget cap. Although it will be difficult to monitor, we think it can be achieved."

Brawn added: "We do support sensible efficiencies on cost and cost restraint. The difficult thing is applying it so it doesn't advantage or disadvantage one team over another, and that's the thing we need to focus on.

"The concept of a budget cap a couple of years ago was thought to be fairly ludicrous. But if you look at the weaknesses of the counter-arguments and alternative solutions, you wonder whether budget-capping isn't the one you ought to find a solution for. It gives everyone the opportunity they want to try and achieve the objective."


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64483

[Valve Bounce]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64483

They should ask Carlton how it's done. :D

I can just imagine how anyone can determine how much any team spends on aero outsourced for R&D.

[Malbec]

Well Honda would wouldn't they!

They could get other bits of the company to do work for F1 which wouldn't appear on FIA audits. And so could any large car company with aerospace involvement.

Earlier this week Mallya was in an interview saying that he would negotiate with Airbus to get them to lend him CFD time and do some materials research for him in return for buying more planes in the future. Audit that FIA!

And what happens to customer teams? Does it mean Red Bull and Honda get double the budget of everyone else?

[Ranger]

They probably want it as a means of controlling themselves after the year that was. :\

[Garry Walker]

Stupid suggestion. I was not expecting someone of Ross Brawns calibre to come up with something like this.

[ShiftingGears]

I suppose Honda having a B-team would give them a loophole when it comes to budget caps...
That's the only reason I can think of that would justify Brawn making statements like that. Because not that long ago Brawn was talking about how cost cutting was damaging to F1.

[Valve Bounce]

I suppose Honda having a B-team would give them a loophole when it comes to budget caps...
That's the only reason I can think of that would justify Brawn making statements like that. Because not that long ago Brawn was talking about how cost cutting was damaging to F1.

Good point. Because if Team Honda spread their salary cap over two teams, they could have twice the expenditure of other teams. Using Toshigi for some of their developments could help spread the expenditure nicely.

[wmcot]

Like the salary caps in professional basketball and football here in the US - they end up meaning nothing because there are so many legal loopholes.

[SGWilko]

Stupid suggestion. I was not expecting someone of Ross Brawns calibre to come up with something like this.

If you are a team running multiple wind tunnels, and the FIA decide to limit wind tunnel use to cut costs, how do the teams recoup the money spent on their investment in the tunnels?

The budget cap makes perfect sense, and can be a good way (if policed properly (ha, yeah right?!!)) of leveling the field.

Why is Ross in the wrong for suggesting this idea?

[I am evil Homer]

Indeed...costs are already immense and sponsors needed to cover those overheads are going to get harder and harder. This whole idea could gain attention if, as expected, there's a global recession....even the traditional backers like banks are feeling the squeeze right now.

[Valve Bounce]

If you are a team running multiple wind tunnels, and the FIA decide to limit wind tunnel use to cut costs, how do the teams recoup the money spent on their investment in the tunnels?

The budget cap makes perfect sense, and can be a good way (if policed properly (ha, yeah right?!!)) of leveling the field.

Why is Ross in the wrong for suggesting this idea?

Well, if Super Aguri has the same car as Honda next year (like in year 2008), they could run tests on the Super Aguri half the time and the Honda the other half - makes perfect sense. They can double their testing cap just like that.

[Hawkmoon]

It's a good suggestion but it's totally unenforceable.

As others have said, how do you stop manufacturers from getting other parts of their organisations testing parts for them?

[Valve Bounce]

Good point. The other organisations could offer to do that for nothing if they can get pitpasses. :p :

[markabilly]

Will the budget caps include the costs of buffets and entertainment for sponsors?

Will it include driver salaries?
What about drivers getting special personal deals to show their faces in ads?

Of course they could moniter the expenditures just like they monitor fuel temps.......................and what would be the penalty? Will the drivers pay for the sins of over-spending

Okay our bookeepers say that mac was 750 dollars over the cap--reponse it was due to flunctuations in the exchange rate for the hotels in China....

[jso1985]

budgets will never work if they can't be properly controlled, and it's quite clear is almost impossible to control how much a team spends.

[Garry Walker]

Like the salary caps in professional basketball and football here in the US - they end up meaning nothing because there are so many legal loopholes.

The salary-caps in such leagues are a piece of cake compared to F1.


If you are a team running multiple wind tunnels, and the FIA decide to limit wind tunnel use to cut costs, how do the teams recoup the money spent on their investment in the tunnels? They rent them out? What does that question have to do with this topic?



The budget cap makes perfect sense, and can be a good way (if policed properly (ha, yeah right?!!)) of leveling the field. It makes no sense, as it would be impossible to police, especially in case of big teams, who have manufacturer backing. Think about it a bit and then come back to talk about it. I also dont see a reason why the field should be levelled. This isnt communism.



Why is Ross in the wrong for suggesting this idea? Because I would expect such a stupid and undoable suggestion from a poster at this forum, who works at Asda for 1,55£ per hour, not from a man who has lead teams to numerous world championship titles.

[SGWilko]

What does that question have to do with this topic?

:rolleyes: Because Honda, amongst others, have just invested in a second windtunnel, and just recently, Max has been wittering about limiting the use of wind tunnels. So, Honda want to ensure they reap the rewards of multiple tunnels, or is that not logical?


This isnt communism. :confused:


Because I would expect such a stupid and undoable suggestion from a poster at this forum, who works at Asda for 1,55£ per hour, not from a man who has lead teams to numerous world championship titles. Broaden your mind, your attempt to provoke leads some of us to assume you might actually be the person you are describing. :dozey:

[Garry Walker]

:rolleyes: Because Honda, amongst others, have just invested in a second windtunnel, and just recently, Max has been wittering about limiting the use of wind tunnels. So, Honda want to ensure they reap the rewards of multiple tunnels, or is that not logical?
By introducing the budget cap, how will it help Honda reap the rewards from multiple wind tunnels?

In any case, as far as I rememeber, Wind tunnel time has been limited for the 2008 season anyway.



Broaden your mind, your attempt to provoke leads some of us to assume you might actually be the person you are describing. :dozey:
Yeah, you got me there, I really flip the burgers at McDonalds :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

[SGWilko]

By introducing the budget cap, how will it help Honda reap the rewards from multiple wind tunnels?

Because they will allocate sufficient from that budget cap to make sensible use of it, rather than just be dictated to as to when it can be used.


In any case, as far as I rememeber, Wind tunnel time has been limited for the 2008 season anyway. Has it, I wasn't aware of that. Did the F1 teams just roll over and 'take it up the tailpipe'?



Yeah, you got me there, I really flip the burgers at McDonalds :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

Reminds me of Coming to America. "Soon I'll be on food prep, and in a couple of years I'll make floor manager - that's when the big bucks start rolling in" :rotflmao:

[Garry Walker]

Because they will allocate sufficient from that budget cap to make sensible use of it, rather than just be dictated to as to when it can be used.
But a budget cap would mean that it would be impossible for them to keep the wind tunnel working all the time, so the useage time would still be limited.
In addition to that, even now they are free to use it whenever they want, just that the time they can use it is limited. So a budget cap and FIA restriction on time that it is allowed to use end up with similar results.



Has it, I wasn't aware of that. Did the F1 teams just roll over and 'take it up the tailpipe'?They had no choice.



Reminds me of Coming to America. "Soon I'll be on food prep, and in a couple of years I'll make floor manager - that's when the big bucks start rolling in" :rotflmao: I saw that movie only a few days ago. Great movie.

[SGWilko]

The point about capping budgets - if such a thing were reliably possible in F1 - is that currently, without such caps, when the FIA restricts one area to 'cut costs' the teams spend the money saved on other areas to compensate. With the cap, you know what you have to spend on your entire outfit for the season, so you make better use of it.

A good example was the way Renault approached the testing cap a while back. They became much more efficient at testing, and it served them well. But everyone else has since caught on and the field levels in that area.