Rate the drivers for 2007...

[pino]

Here's my Top 10

1 Kimi
2 Alonso
3 Massa
4 Button
5 Fisichella
6 Webber
7 Trulli
8 Kubica
9 Heidfeld
10 Rubens

post on...

[Gannex]

1. Alonso
2. Webber
3. Raikkonen
4. Button
5. Kubica
6. Heidfeld
7. Barrichello
8. Massa
9. Trulli
10. Fisichella

Webber is under-rated, simply because he's had poor equipment. Raikkonen would be at the top if he weren't flawed by laziness, which affects his individual performances and his rate of improvement. Button is smooth, always unruffled, and, like Webber, has not been given the equipment to show what he can do. Kubica is like Raikkonen was when he first arrived in F1. Heidfeld is amazingly talented, but needs a little push now and then, otherwise he'd be higher. Barrichello, Massa and Trulli are usually good, but occasionally awful, and Fisichella has no ability to do anything other than drive; he can't apply racecraft while driving fast, which is a serious problem for him.

[dwf1]

this is not how the championship will finish(so not in order) but my top 10 drivers are....

kimi
Alonso
Massa
Lewis Hamliton ( i think this is the 2007 champion if mclaren make a good car)
fisi
kubica
DC
Webber
Button
Rosberg/Ralf/Rubens/Sutil/Heidfeld (cant decide!)

[DexDexter]

Here is my top 10

Kimi
Alonso
Massa
Kovalainen
Button
Hamilton
heidfeld
Kubica
Webber
Trulli

[ArrowsFA1]

1 Alonso - the best all-round driver on the grid
2 Raikkonen - a title would wipe away all doubts
3 Button - smooth, fast & a winner
4 Fisichella - more than capable, but can he produce?
5 Hamilton - he's that good
6 Massa - if he beats Kimi is he a top driver, or is Kimi not as good as we think?
7 Kubica - could go far
8 Coulthard - experience counts
9 Rosberg - keep the faith, he's good
10 Webber - it's about time!

[ioan]

Massa
Raikkonen
Kubica
R Schumacher
Hamilton
Button
Alonso
Sato
Heidfeld
Barrichello
Kovalainen

[pino]

Massa
Raikkonen
Kubica
R Schumacher
Hamilton
Button
Alonso
Sato
Heidfeld
Barrichello
Kovalainen

ioan...are you ok ? :p :

[jonny hurlock]

1 raikkonen
2 massa
3 alonso
4 button
5 barrichello
6 kubica
7 fisichella
8 hamilton
9 hiedfied
10 kovalainen

[ioan]

ioan...are you ok ? :p :

I never rated Alonso so high so that explains everything!
In fact there is another driver that I should rate better than him and whom I forgot so here's my new list:

Massa
Raikkonen
Kubica
R Schumacher
Trulli
Hamilton
Button
Alonso
Sato
Heidfeld
Barrichello
Kovalainen

[eRFa]

1 Raikkonen
2 Massa
3 Alonso
4 Button
5 Fisichella
6 Rosberg
7 Trulli
8 Kubica
9 Heidfeld
10 Barrichello

[jens]

I'm a bit confused. Is this meant to be an order, how drivers will finish in the points standings by the end of 2007? Or is this the order, how highly anyone rate the drivers?

[schmenke]

1. Kimi
2. Alonso
3. Kovalainen
4. Button
5. Hamilton
6. Webber
7. Coulthard
8. Trulli
9. Heidfeld
10. Kubica

[OTA]

1-Alonso
3-Raikkonen
4-Massa
5-Button
6,7,8,9 Kubica, Webber, Trulli, Heifeld

I don't rate Hamilton as he still to dance in the big stage, however I would think that he is closer to 1 than to 10.
Since the retirement of MS I don't see a clear 2, but the ferrari boys and Hamilton are my candidates.
Cheers
David

[Tomi]

Here's my Top 10

1 Kimi
2 Alonso
3 Massa
4 Button
5 Fisichella
6 Webber
7 Trulli
8 Kubica
9 Heidfeld
10 Rubens

post on...

Paisa, are you ok? Where is Kovalainen? I think he will do the same as Häkkinen when he got his chance at Mclaren, do you remember there was some toss first learning to drive allmost whole season in the second car, when Mika got his chance he was right away on the pace, Kovalainen will be too. :)

[OTA]

Oh I forgot Kovi, he as well should do good, but I don't think he'll as good as Hamilton

Cheers
David

At the moment, in 2007, they are all equal. Admittedly, some are more equal than others with regards to their chances in 07, but at the moment there is no tangible proof that driver 'X' will do better than driver 'Y'.

In other words, I don't do predictions.

[F1boat]

Alonso
Raikkonen
Button
Massa
Coulthard
Barrichello
Fisichella
Kubica
Kovalainen
N Rosberg

[Valve Bounce]

Here's my Top 10

1 Kimi
2 Alonso
3 Massa
4 Button
5 Fisichella
6 Webber
7 Trulli
8 Kubica
9 Heidfeld
10 Rubens

post on...

Where's poor Ralfie? :(

[pino]

I'm a bit confused. Is this meant to be an order, how drivers will finish in the points standings by the end of 2007? Or is this the order, how highly anyone rate the drivers?

This is the order anyone rate the drivers.


Paisa, are you ok? Where is Kovalainen? I think he will do the same as Häkkinen when he got his chance at Mclaren, do you remember there was some toss first learning to drive allmost whole season in the second car, when Mika got his chance he was right away on the pace, Kovalainen will be too. :)

Nothing against him but he's a rookie, can't rate him before have seen in action, the same goes for Hamilton ;)




I never rated Alonso so high so that explains everything!
In fact there is another driver that I should rate better than him and whom I forgot so here's my new list:

Massa
Raikkonen
Kubica
R Schumacher
Trulli
Hamilton
Button
Alonso
Sato
Heidfeld
Barrichello
Kovalainen

Trulli ahead of Alonso ? not even me rates him that much :p :




Where's poor Ralfie? :(


He's in 11 pos :p :

[Storm]

1 Alonso - 2 time world champ!
2 Raikkonen - as good as Fernando but needs a title quick
3 Button - a good fast driver
4 Kovalainen - I think he will do well
5 Fisichella - talented but got kicked by Alonso
6 Massa - turning into a consistently fast guy
7 Trulli - always quick but can't see Toyota doing well :s
8 Kubica - surprise package of last year
9 Barrichello - needs to go faster..or retire
10 Webber

[ioan]

Where's poor Ralfie? :(

Right, how come people think Fisichella is better than R Schumacher. Ralf might not be the best of them but for sure races better than what Fisi showed us in the champion car!

[ArrowsFA1]

Right, how come people think Fisichella is better than R Schumacher. Ralf might not be the best of them but for sure races better than what Fisi showed us in the champion car!
Fisi hasn't done a bad job for Renault, although I agree he could and should have done better.

One difference between them is that Fisi looks like he wants to be a F1 driver and a winner, whereas Ralf looks like he's not even sure why he's racing. We'll see how Fisi does 'leading' the Renault team this year, but Ralf has had a real opportunity at Toyota to make his mark on a team and...nothing. Nothing remarkable has happened, and the team haven't improved or made much progress. That's not entirely down to the drivers (you rate Trulli just below Ralf) but the state of Toyota does reflect on them, and it doesn't reflect well.

Fisichella meanwhile has been a part of the team that has won 4 world titles in the last two years.

[ioan]

Fisi hasn't done a bad job for Renault, although I agree he could and should have done better.

One difference between them is that Fisi looks like he wants to be a F1 driver and a winner, whereas Ralf looks like he's not even sure why he's racing. We'll see how Fisi does 'leading' the Renault team this year, but Ralf has had a real opportunity at Toyota to make his mark on a team and...nothing. Nothing remarkable has happened, and the team haven't improved or made much progress. That's not entirely down to the drivers (you rate Trulli just below Ralf) but the state of Toyota does reflect on them, and it doesn't reflect well.

Fisichella meanwhile has been a part of the team that has won 4 world titles in the last two years.

I'm still trying to rememeber when was that RS was blown away by his team mate (apart maybe his rookie season) the way Fisi has been this last 2 seasons!
I also fail to remember Ralf losing a race in the last corner.
As I fail to remember any impressive race from Fisichella, while there are quite a few outstanding performances from Ralf.

Anyway each with his preferences.

BTW there were races last year when RS and JT driving those Toyotas blew Fisi (driving the championship winning car) out of the water.

[ArrowsFA1]

I'm still trying to rememeber when was that RS was blown away by his team mate (apart maybe his rookie season)...
When his team-mate was Giancarlo Fisichella :)

[Storm]

Right, how come people think Fisichella is better than R Schumacher.

The same way some people seem to rate Massa, Button, Tom , Dick and Harry above a certain Alonso.

It's called opinion...I do rate Fisi as a better driver than Ralf but doesn't mean I don't rate Ralf at all! Infact on his day he is flawless, and Fisi should indeed have done better with a car like Renault in the past 2 years.

[ioan]

When his team-mate was Giancarlo Fisichella :)

I excluded the Ralf's rookie season in my previous post, given that '97 it wasn't Fisis's rookie season but 2nd.
Also in that same season RS retired some 10 times (6 times mechanical failures, 3 accidents and 1 spin).
Fisichella had more luck and finished more races than RS but his retirements were more due to spinning off than mechanical troubles.

For the 6 races they both finished Ralf beat Fisi 4 times to the flag.

It doesn't seams that Fisi was better than Ralf, not even in Ralf's rookie season, but however, as Storm said, each with his opinion.

For me Fisichella is the worst driver in a championship winning machine we have sen for a good while.

[agwiii]

Raikkonen would be at the top if he weren't flawed by laziness, which affects his individual performances and his rate of improvement.

Very interesting, Gannex. I believe the Kimi-Ferrari romance will not last long.

[Ranger]

Right, how come people think Fisichella is better than R Schumacher.
In addition to what Storm said...

Ralf hasn't comprehensively beat any team-mate of his, bar Zanardi who wasn't a stayer. Fisichella has beaten Ralf (Ralf's debut year though, as you mentioned), Alex Wurz, Takuma Sato, Jenson Button, and Felipe Massa by a comprehensive margin - all of whom are drivers for 2007.

Fisichella has only pretty much been well and truly beaten by a driver who has become champion twice (rather convincingly as well). Logic says if you don't rate the guy who became champion, then you won't rate Fisi, which is where you are coming from.

I'm under the impression that Fisi is a bit of an psychologically weak driver who crippled a bit when serving as second fiddle to Alonso, and will do better in 2007. But I'll see.

Being a Toyota driver, I don't get a good impression from Ralf, and generally while Fisichella can just be psychologically weak, Ralf often just doesn't seem to give a toss half the days he is around - put him in a title winning car next to one of the top 3 drivers on the grid and I don't think he'd fare particularly well either.

All in my opinion, of course.

[ioan]

In addition to what Storm said...

Ralf hasn't comprehensively beat any team-mate of his, bar Zanardi who wasn't a stayer. Fisichella has beaten Ralf (Ralf's debut year though, as you mentioned), Alex Wurz, Takuma Sato, Jenson Button, and Felipe Massa by a comprehensive margin - all of whom are drivers for 2007.

And all of those Fisi has beaten where in their 1st or 2nd year in F1.
Ralf has faired well against JPM, JT, and was quite up against DH who is however a WDC!

Searched for some stats about them and found these on wikipedia (hope they are right, feel free to correct otherwise):

Driver: GF __RS

Races: 179 _162
Wins:___3 ___6
Poles:___3 ___6
Podiums:18 __27

RS never drove a clear championship winning machine, this can't be said about GF.
I still believe Ralf is a better driver than GF.

Of course it's just my opinion and the stats.

[Ranger]

Races: 179 _162
Wins:___3 ___6
Poles:___3 ___6
Podiums:18 __27

RS never drove a clear championship winning machine, this can't be said about GF.
I still believe Ralf is a better driver than GF.

Of course it's just my opinion and the stats.

Ralf did have a race winning car from 2001-2004, whereas Fisi had one for only 2005-2006, which says something about some of the stats, but not all of them. Fair enough.

[Tazio]

1 alonso-Best resume!
Tie! Kimi-will outqualify alonso greater than or equal to 10 times
3 Heidfeld-going out on a limb
4 Fisi -let's see how fast he is in that car, without underling status
4 Kubica-Judging from the end of last season he could go higher
5 Webber
6 Massa- wild guess
7 Butto-amost always in points, needs to win moreraces
8 R.B
9 Coultard
10 J.T.

Can't rate rookies

[schmenke]

...For me Fisichella is the worst driver in a championship winning machine we have sen for a good while.

Ioan, I agree ( :s hock: :p : ). Although both are over-rated drivers IMO, I give the edge to Ralph. Fisichella failed to impress me even more in the 2006 season :mark: .

[ioan]

Ioan, I agree ( :s hock: :p : ).

Well, well!

I could quote a phrase from "Casablanca", but I'll wait to see if this happens again! :D

[ioan]

Ralf did have a race winning car from 2001-2004, whereas Fisi had one for only 2005-2006, which says something about some of the stats, but not all of them. Fair enough.

Well there is a difference between having a race winning car (Williams from 2001-2004) that had to beat the 2001-2004 Ferraris and a championship winning car (2005-2006 Renault) that only had to contend with an unreliable McLaren in 2006 and with the 248F1 Ferrari (for only half a season).

For a comparison in the same 2001-2004 period Ralf very very appreciated team mate won only 4 races compared to Ralf's 6!

You won't tell me however that you think that Fisichella is a better driver than Montoya! :p :

[Cozzie]

1 Alonso - Simply the best! enough said.
2 Raikkonen - Not quite in Alonso's league but thereabouts.
3 Button - It is his time to step up!
4 Massa - Will end up playing second fiddle to Raikkonen.
5 Barrichello - The Honda will be quick.
6 Kubica - A future World Champion.
7 Fisichella - Will have a few good days
8 Hamilton - The McLaren will be strong but will be no. 2 to Alonso.
9 Heidfeld - BMW will once again be on the rise.
10 Kovalainen - Renault will slump and it is his first year.

[jens]

This is the order anyone rate the drivers.

OK then. :)

But I only wonder, how can you put the drivers in order? It's impossible as the results depend on so many aspects, which often do not perfectly reflect driver's true ability. Even if we make comparisons against team-mates, then we again are in trouble, because everyone has bad and good years and we get "dead comparisons" (like that famous JV-HHF-DH triangle). So the driver himself has to be analyzed. We definetely should take into account drivers compared to team-mates, but that one with reckoning, how the driver himself performed that year.

Rate drivers for 2007? Can rate them only based on their performances so far.

I don't put them in order, because it's unfair (if someone is rated ahead of another, then often raises a question - why is the other one weaker? And after some thinking you realise that there is no reason to underestimate the other one...).

My Groups.
Group A: Alonso, Räikkönen, Button, Heidfeld, Massa.

So what do I find in them? All of them are quick, consistent (some might doubt in Felipe, but I take into account raw speed here - he has been quick practically everywhere), good car developers (although a questionmark on Kimi), make rarely driver errors (again some might argue with Felipe, but in the second half of 2006 he seemed to have matured).
No-one is perfect and of course every drivers has his weaknesses.
Alonso - too emotional in situations, where it is not needed (hint: Doornbos)
Räikkönen - mentioned car development + team motivating
Button - "easy" to pass and unmotivated when driving an uncompetitive car (for example mid-2006 and 2001)
Heidfeld - might be "soft" in certain situations
Massa - wet weather racing.

Group B: Webber, Fisichella, Trulli, Schumacher, Barrichello, Coulthard, Sato, Wurz.

Webber - Quick, but slightly inconsistent and has a tendency to be better in qualis. Also his concentration has sometimes (!) been a questionmark. Sometimes reminds me a bit of Fisichella (able to shine in a bad car, but what can he do in a top team, is at the moment a question-mark and has got no answer at all) or Trulli (more shining results in quali and a "car breaker" in races).
Fisichella - Another quick guy. Slightly inconsistent and sometimes has problems to keep concentration. Strength is good car handling and speed in slippery and changing conditions and ability to take out the maximum from crap cars.
Trulli - Strengths being good concentration and position defending. Weaknesses unability to deal with the change of car handling or to drive a mediocre-setuped car (which sometimes makes him slower than he should be). And last, but not least - a car breaker. :( [if one's car breaks down all the time and usually from good positions then there must be something... - Alesi was the same]
Schumacher - On his day might be as quick as anyone, but in head-to-head battles and certain other situations lacks of concentration, which causes driver errors and avoidable collisions.
Barrichello - Quick, but again - like the previously mentioned - slightly inconsistent.
Coulthard - A good car developer and also quite consistent, but seems to lack of raw speed, which seems to be the main issue that has prevented him to fight for the title, when he was still driving in top cars.
Sato - Quite quick, but in certain situations - mainly in battles with others - seems to underestimate situation or lacks of concentration.
Wurz - Do not rate him as highly as most of the other Group B members (was for example clearly struggling against Fisi, when they were team-mates), but on his day might also be able to put in a surprise (like some races at the start of 1998).

Group C: Kovalainen, Hamilton, Kubica, Sutil, Rosberg, Davidson, Albers, Speed, Liuzzi.
Rookies about who it's early to give an accurate opinion yet. First impressions says that Kovalainen, Hamilton and Kubica are likely to join "A" and Rosberg and Davidson "B". Speed and Liuzzi are somewhere between those. They are quick, but seem inconsistent sometimes.
Sutil - haven't even the foggiest idea.
Albers - he isn't a rookie of course, but as he has driven such a crap cars that I don't know whether he is among the bests or not. The only thing known is that he quite consistently took the maximum out of that Midland/Spyker...

Hopefully didn't forget anyone.

The dividing line between "A" and "B" is often foggy and disputable. Like Heidfeld and Webber had pretty tight battle in Williams as they are in different groups here. And some might point out the Sauber 2004 comparison between Fisichella and Massa as they are now in different groups. But the drivers are of course closely matched and there is no reason at all, why a "B" member shouldn't be able to surprise anyone of the "A" members as a team-mate. Even Fisichella managed to outdrive Alonso on several occasions presumably in a more unsuitable car for him. And happy to say that this year we haven't "pay-drivers" and all of them are capable of driving well. :)

If you have something to argue about, then have a go! :)

[Ranger]

OK then. :)

But I only wonder, how can you put the drivers in order? It's impossible as the results depend on so many aspects, which often do not perfectly reflect driver's true ability. Even if we make comparisons against team-mates, then we again are in trouble, because everyone has bad and good years and we get "dead comparisons" (like that famous JV-HHF-DH triangle). So the driver himself has to be analyzed. We definetely should take into account drivers compared to team-mates, but that one with reckoning, how the driver himself performed that year.

Rate drivers for 2007? Can rate them only based on their performances so far.

I don't put them in order, because it's unfair (if someone is rated ahead of another, then often raises a question - why is the other one weaker? And after some thinking you realise that there is no reason to underestimate the other one...).

My Groups.
Group A: Alonso, Räikkönen, Button, Heidfeld, Massa.

So what do I find in them? All of them are quick, consistent (some might doubt in Felipe, but I take into account raw speed here - he has been quick practically everywhere), good car developers (although a questionmark on Kimi), make rarely driver errors (again some might argue with Felipe, but in the second half of 2006 he seemed to have matured).
No-one is perfect and of course every drivers has his weaknesses.
Alonso - too emotional in situations, where it is not needed (hint: Doornbos)
Räikkönen - mentioned car development + team motivating
Button - "easy" to pass and unmotivated when driving an uncompetitive car (for example mid-2006 and 2001)
Heidfeld - might be "soft" in certain situations
Massa - wet weather racing.

Group B: Webber, Fisichella, Trulli, Schumacher, Barrichello, Coulthard, Sato, Wurz.

Webber - Quick, but slightly inconsistent and has a tendency to be better in qualis. Also his concentration has sometimes (!) been a questionmark. Sometimes reminds me a bit of Fisichella (able to shine in a bad car, but what can he do in a top team, is at the moment a question-mark and has got no answer at all) or Trulli (more shining results in quali and a "car breaker" in races).
Fisichella - Another quick guy. Slightly inconsistent and sometimes has problems to keep concentration. Strength is good car handling and speed in slippery and changing conditions and ability to take out the maximum from crap cars.
Trulli - Strengths being good concentration and position defending. Weaknesses unability to deal with the change of car handling or to drive a mediocre-setuped car (which sometimes makes him slower than he should be). And last, but not least - a car breaker. :( [if one's car breaks down all the time and usually from good positions then there must be something... - Alesi was the same]
Schumacher - On his day might be as quick as anyone, but in head-to-head battles and certain other situations lacks of concentration, which causes driver errors and avoidable collisions.
Barrichello - Quick, but again - like the previously mentioned - slightly inconsistent.
Coulthard - A good car developer and also quite consistent, but seems to lack of raw speed, which seems to be the main issue that has prevented him to fight for the title, when he was still driving in top cars.
Sato - Quite quick, but in certain situations - mainly in battles with others - seems to underestimate situation or lacks of concentration.
Wurz - Do not rate him as highly as most of the other Group B members (was for example clearly struggling against Fisi, when they were team-mates), but on his day might also be able to put in a surprise (like some races at the start of 1998).

Group C: Kovalainen, Hamilton, Kubica, Sutil, Rosberg, Davidson, Albers, Speed, Liuzzi.
Rookies about who it's early to give an accurate opinion yet. First impressions says that Kovalainen, Hamilton and Kubica are likely to join "A" and Rosberg and Davidson "B". Speed and Liuzzi are somewhere between those. They are quick, but seem inconsistent sometimes.
Sutil - haven't even the foggiest idea.
Albers - he isn't a rookie of course, but as he has driven such a crap cars that I don't know whether he is among the bests or not. The only thing known is that he quite consistently took the maximum out of that Midland/Spyker...

Hopefully didn't forget anyone.

The dividing line between "A" and "B" is often foggy and disputable. Like Heidfeld and Webber had pretty tight battle in Williams as they are in different groups here. And some might point out the Sauber 2004 comparison between Fisichella and Massa as they are now in different groups. But the drivers are of course closely matched and there is no reason at all, why a "B" member shouldn't be able to surprise anyone of the "A" members as a team-mate. Even Fisichella managed to outdrive Alonso on several occasions presumably in a more unsuitable car for him. And happy to say that this year we haven't "pay-drivers" and all of them are capable of driving well. :)

If you have something to argue about, then have a go! :)

Looks pretty good to me - I wouldn't have made groups coz I can't draw the line between group one and two.

Pretty good! :up:

[Tazio]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gannex
Raikkonen would be at the top if he weren't flawed by laziness, which affects his individual performances and his rate of improvement.

Very interesting, Gannex. I believe the Kimi-Ferrari romance will not last long.

My opinion is that Kimi will rip it up at Ferrari!
Ferrari knew what they were getting when they signed him!
When it was confirmed,(after Monza) I had my doubts that he would even be Ferrari's #1 this year.
My opinion has now changed.
I no longer consider Massa a real threat to Kimi this season.
I like Massa alot. I just don't think he is in the same league as "Ice Man".

Plus, I really don't think it will be hard for Ferrari to cutivate a successful relationship with Kimi.
I know others agree!
Read on!
http://www.dailyf1news.com/dailyf1news/nieuw/artikel.php?nwsID=2291

[agwiii]

OK then. :)

But I only wonder, how can you put the drivers in order? It's impossible as the results depend on so many aspects, which often do not perfectly reflect driver's true ability. Even if we make comparisons against team-mates, then we again are in trouble, because everyone has bad and good years and we get "dead comparisons" (like that famous JV-HHF-DH triangle). So the driver himself has to be analyzed. We definetely should take into account drivers compared to team-mates, but that one with reckoning, how the driver himself performed that year.

Rate drivers for 2007? Can rate them only based on their performances so far.

I don't put them in order, because it's unfair (if someone is rated ahead of another, then often raises a question - why is the other one weaker? And after some thinking you realise that there is no reason to underestimate the other one...).

My Groups.
Group A: Alonso, Räikkönen, Button, Heidfeld, Massa.

So what do I find in them? All of them are quick, consistent (some might doubt in Felipe, but I take into account raw speed here - he has been quick practically everywhere), good car developers (although a questionmark on Kimi), make rarely driver errors (again some might argue with Felipe, but in the second half of 2006 he seemed to have matured).
No-one is perfect and of course every drivers has his weaknesses.
Alonso - too emotional in situations, where it is not needed (hint: Doornbos)
Räikkönen - mentioned car development + team motivating
Button - "easy" to pass and unmotivated when driving an uncompetitive car (for example mid-2006 and 2001)
Heidfeld - might be "soft" in certain situations
Massa - wet weather racing.

Group B: Webber, Fisichella, Trulli, Schumacher, Barrichello, Coulthard, Sato, Wurz.

Webber - Quick, but slightly inconsistent and has a tendency to be better in qualis. Also his concentration has sometimes (!) been a questionmark. Sometimes reminds me a bit of Fisichella (able to shine in a bad car, but what can he do in a top team, is at the moment a question-mark and has got no answer at all) or Trulli (more shining results in quali and a "car breaker" in races).
Fisichella - Another quick guy. Slightly inconsistent and sometimes has problems to keep concentration. Strength is good car handling and speed in slippery and changing conditions and ability to take out the maximum from crap cars.
Trulli - Strengths being good concentration and position defending. Weaknesses unability to deal with the change of car handling or to drive a mediocre-setuped car (which sometimes makes him slower than he should be). And last, but not least - a car breaker. :( [if one's car breaks down all the time and usually from good positions then there must be something... - Alesi was the same]
Schumacher - On his day might be as quick as anyone, but in head-to-head battles and certain other situations lacks of concentration, which causes driver errors and avoidable collisions.
Barrichello - Quick, but again - like the previously mentioned - slightly inconsistent.
Coulthard - A good car developer and also quite consistent, but seems to lack of raw speed, which seems to be the main issue that has prevented him to fight for the title, when he was still driving in top cars.
Sato - Quite quick, but in certain situations - mainly in battles with others - seems to underestimate situation or lacks of concentration.
Wurz - Do not rate him as highly as most of the other Group B members (was for example clearly struggling against Fisi, when they were team-mates), but on his day might also be able to put in a surprise (like some races at the start of 1998).

Group C: Kovalainen, Hamilton, Kubica, Sutil, Rosberg, Davidson, Albers, Speed, Liuzzi.
Rookies about who it's early to give an accurate opinion yet. First impressions says that Kovalainen, Hamilton and Kubica are likely to join "A" and Rosberg and Davidson "B". Speed and Liuzzi are somewhere between those. They are quick, but seem inconsistent sometimes.
Sutil - haven't even the foggiest idea.
Albers - he isn't a rookie of course, but as he has driven such a crap cars that I don't know whether he is among the bests or not. The only thing known is that he quite consistently took the maximum out of that Midland/Spyker...

Hopefully didn't forget anyone.

The dividing line between "A" and "B" is often foggy and disputable. Like Heidfeld and Webber had pretty tight battle in Williams as they are in different groups here. And some might point out the Sauber 2004 comparison between Fisichella and Massa as they are now in different groups. But the drivers are of course closely matched and there is no reason at all, why a "B" member shouldn't be able to surprise anyone of the "A" members as a team-mate. Even Fisichella managed to outdrive Alonso on several occasions presumably in a more unsuitable car for him. And happy to say that this year we haven't "pay-drivers" and all of them are capable of driving well. :)

If you have something to argue about, then have a go! :)

Jens:

As usual, this is a well reasoned and thoughtful post. I tend to agree with the approach, but I suggest that three levels does not provide adequate granularity to describe the F1 drivers. I place them in these groups based upon their 2006 performance, and not on “potential.” Any resemblance between the group ids and grades is purely intentional.

Group A: Alonso, Räikkönen, Massa.

Group B: Button, Heidfeld.

Group C: Kubica, Trulli, Schumacher, Barrichello, Coulthard, Wurz, Speed, Liuzzi.

Group D: Webber, Fisichella, Albers.

Group F: Rosberg, Sato.

Group I: Kovalainen, Hamilton, Sutil, Davidson.

[Zsolt]

1. Alonso
2. Raikkonen
3. Massa
4. Kubica
5. Button
6. Fisichella
7. Webber
8. Barrichello
9. Rosberg
10. Heidfeld

Like some other people, I didn't list any drivers I haven't seen race yet. From what i've read, Hamilton & Kovalainen will be very good/great drivers.

/I think Ralf should retire.

[Zsolt]

Nice post, Jens! I've rated them like that when I would talk about the drivers too. Too bad I read your post AFTER I posted otherwise I would have done the same thing!

[OTA]

Funny to see that the same people who stated that Alonso's car was only equal to Fisi in the livery, now dismiss Fisi cause he's been in championship winning car.

Cheers
David

[ioan]

Funny to see that the same people who stated that Alonso's car was only equal to Fisi in the livery, now dismiss Fisi cause he's been in championship winning car.

Cheers
David

Did I say that FA had a different car than GF???

[Knock-on]

Group I: Kovalainen, Hamilton, Sutil, Davidson.

Performance in 2006 and not potential?

Why bother? You have found two of the stars, if not 3, for '07.

However, you rate them bottom.

:laugh:

[agwiii]

Performance in 2006 and not potential? Why bother? You have found two of the stars, if not 3, for '07. However, you rate them bottom.
An "I" means incomplete. That's not the bottom, it's an incomplete.

[WelshLegend]

i can't help but notice that all the top 10 drivers all have really fast machinery beneath them. What about Sato in Brazil, Albers getting through to the 2nd shoot out in what really is a pants car, Liuzzi scoring a point and then losing it again after the race. Its the drivers like the ones mentioned who should be filling the top spaces and not your Heidfelds, Barrichello etc.

[OTA]

Ioan, I don't mean to be scientificaly precise here, but my idea from reading your posts is that you have say just about everything you could say to state your very respectfull opinion that Alonso is not the great driver that I for instance think he is. And excuse me if I'm wrong, but your name does come to my mind in the issue of Renault being a one man team.

Cheers
David

[ioan]

Ioan, I don't mean to be scientificaly precise here, but my idea from reading your posts is that you have say just about everything you could say to state your very respectfull opinion that Alonso is not the great driver that I for instance think he is. And excuse me if I'm wrong, but your name does come to my mind in the issue of Renault being a one man team.

Cheers
David

Well Renault Was a one man team, the Alonso Team, or you would say that Fisichella was up to the same level with him!

And yes I don't think Alonso is as good as some believe and I believe that Fisischella is even worse, but I comment about Fisichella and not Alonso untill you brought this up a few posts ago.

And yep it's only my opinion so you should get so upset because of it. ;)

[ioan]

i can't help but notice that all the top 10 drivers all have really fast machinery beneath them. What about Sato in Brazil, Albers getting through to the 2nd shoot out in what really is a pants car, Liuzzi scoring a point and then losing it again after the race. Its the drivers like the ones mentioned who should be filling the top spaces and not your Heidfelds, Barrichello etc.


That's why I rated Sato better than Heidfeld and Barrichello! :D

[WelshLegend]

gud 2 see that someone has sense in this forum :)

[jens]

i can't help but notice that all the top 10 drivers all have really fast machinery beneath them. What about Sato in Brazil, Albers getting through to the 2nd shoot out in what really is a pants car, Liuzzi scoring a point and then losing it again after the race. Its the drivers like the ones mentioned who should be filling the top spaces and not your Heidfelds, Barrichello etc.

You may have a point if you had expressed the logic in better way. For example I can't understand why have you brought Heidfeld as an example, because he hasn't a fast machinery as well. OK, a bit faster than those very backmarkers, but a long way behind the top ones. You tried to defend "backmarkers", but at the same time you criticize others, who similarly have never got a right chance. Or you tried to say that the drivers in top teams and back teams are better than the "midfield drivers", who are somehow sandwiched between better ones?!?!

[OTA]

Ioan, not upset at all, just a comment. And I do agree with you that Fisi was very much useless throughout his first 2 year in Renault. May be he could not cope with the pressure of having FA as team mate, and this year surprises all of us. I highly doubt it.

Cheers
David

[ioan]

gud 2 see that someone has sense in this forum :)

Don't worry, there are several more, just that they didn't posted in this thread! ;)

[ioan]

Ioan, not upset at all, just a comment. And I do agree with you that Fisi was very much useless throughout his first 2 year in Renault. May be he could not cope with the pressure of having FA as team mate, and this year surprises all of us. I highly doubt it.

Cheers
David

If Fisi would have been better than what he showed, he should have finished not lower than second given the cars he drove this 2 season. When I think about all the hype about him prior to joining Renault! :rolleyes:

[Mikeall]

I'm gonna give two lists. The first is the top 10 positions for next year with reasons:

1. Fisichella (The Renault is as competitive as ever and more focussed towards Fisi I think he'll be able to do it)
2. Alonso (Alonso is about as good as Raikkonen but McLaren did not improve much last year without Adrian Newey and I see no reason why this year will be different)
3. Raikkonen (He's got talent but a ferrari without Schumacher and Brawn will struggle)
4. Button (Honda will be fast but they seem to go up and down duringseasons)
5. Massa (He's improving but isn't as impressive as Raikkonen)
6. Kovaleinen (Rookie of the year but may always be at a disadvantage to Fisichella)
7. Hamilton (Will be tough with Alonso but I'd expect him to show his speed at times)
8. Heidfeld (The BMW-Sauber will be competitive and the extar experience should just about give him the edge)
9. Kubica (I think he could be the faster of the two BMW drivers but not often enough over all races)
10. Ralf Schumacher (Will probably be solid but 2006 hurt Toyota)

The next is the order I would pick for a drive if it only mattered what they did in 2007.

1. Alonso
2. Raikkonen
3. Fisichella
4. Massa
5. Heidfeld
6. R Schumacher
7. Button
8. Trulli
9. Kubica
10. Rosberg

[pino]

If Fisi would have been better than what he showed, he should have finished not lower than second given the cars he drove this 2 season. When I think about all the hype about him prior to joining Renault! :rolleyes:

ioan, you know better than me that Ferrari had the best car last year. Alonso won the title because of his talent and due to Ferrari and MS many mistakes...Do you really think Fisi should have beaten MS ? :s

[ioan]

ioan, you know better than me that Ferrari had the best car last year. Alonso won the title because of his talent and due to Ferrari and MS many mistakes...Do you really think Fisi should have beaten MS ? :s

Last I checked Not only Michael but also Felipe beat Fisi last season!
As for who had the best car last year, Ferrari had the best one for the 2nd half, but not for the first half. So things were pretty much even over the season.

And the 2005 McLaren was also the best car I suppose and Alonso only won because he is Superman in disguise or what?
Why wasn't GF 2nd in 2005 either? Cause he is not as good as some believe.

[pino]

Last I checked Not only Michael but also Felipe beat Fisi last season!



And last I checked Felipe was on a Ferrari ;)

[Storm]

And last I checked Felipe was on a Ferrari ;)

:up: LOL



2005 clearly a case of Renault and McLaren both equally fast through the year with Renault faster in 1st half of season but McLaren were not reliable enough.
Simple as that, combine Renault pace + reliability and Alonso's skill = both titles

Of course not for some people though...Fisi should have done better - but its clear to all that he did not do justice to his talent and lost it in the mind.

[ArrowsFA1]

As for who had the best car last year, Ferrari had the best one for the 2nd half, but not for the first half. So things were pretty much even over the season.
As the Renault & Ferrari's were evenly matched over the year doesn't that help us assess the drivers in each of those teams? Yet you have Massa at #1 who finished 54pts behind Alonso (#8) in the WDC, and just 8pts ahead of Fisichella, who doesn't appear on your list at all.

Obviously it's your opinion, but I'd be interested to know how just how you reached your conclusions. Are they based on 2006 performance, how you think the drivers will do in 2007, or something else?

[ioan]

As the Renault & Ferrari's were evenly matched over the year doesn't that help us assess the drivers in each of those teams? Yet you have Massa at #1 who finished 54pts behind Alonso (#8) in the WDC, and just 8pts ahead of Fisichella, who doesn't appear on your list at all.

Obviously it's your opinion, but I'd be interested to know how just how you reached your conclusions. Are they based on 2006 performance, how you think the drivers will do in 2007, or something else?

It's based on how they did until now taking into account the possibility they have to further improve their skills in 2007.

Fisi didn't shine these last seasons and he clearly isn't improving anymore, on the contrary he is losing it.
On the other side Massa is doing better and better every year and every race!
And so on for all of them.

[jens]

With Fisichella Renault has won two Constructor's World Titles in a row. With a "bad" driver it wouldn't have happened. He didn't match Alonso, but he did what he needed to do - secure WCC.

[ioan]

With Fisichella Renault has won two Constructor's World Titles in a row. With a "bad" driver it wouldn't have happened. He didn't match Alonso, but he did what he needed to do - secure WCC.


Having a rather dominant car Renault won with Fisichella 2 WCCs, but they were risking to lose them on the last race of the season every time!

Let's take a look to another driver that people doesn't seem to rate as well as Fisi: Rubens!
With Rubens Ferrari, also having a dominant car, won 5 WCCs, these never went down to the last race.
The same Rubens was always there to pick up the leader role when MS had problems, not the same for Fisi i'm affraid.

It's just for showing that he is no where as good as 4th on the list as some mentioned, and that there are plenty of good drivers out there who are much better than Fisi!

[Shalafi]

1. Alonso
2. Kimi
Those two are much better than the rest

3. Button
4. Webber
5. Kubica
6. Massa
7. Kovalainen
8. Heidfeld
9. Fisico
10. Rosberg

[jens]

Having a rather dominant car Renault won with Fisichella 2 WCCs, but they were risking to lose them on the last race of the season every time!

Rather dominant car? :s

In 2006 Renault and Ferrari were pretty equal all in all.
And in 2005 McLaren was clearly faster, although suffering from more mechanical failures (and Fisi had at least as many problems as did McLarens, so more likely his car was weaker than McLaren's overall).

[ioan]

Rather dominant car? :s

In 2006 Renault and Ferrari were pretty equal all in all.
And in 2005 McLaren was clearly faster, although suffering from more mechanical failures (and Fisi had at least as many problems as did McLarens, so more likely his car was weaker than McLaren's overall).

In 2006 Ferrari and Renault were equal only in the 2nd half, in the first half it was clear that Renault was superior and only MS could do some miracles with the Ferrari.

In 2005 the McLarens were sometimes up to Renaults speed, that's true, and KR and JPM were able to show their speed, but more often than not the cars were falling appart before reaching the finish line.

And however GF was pants and if it wasn't for JPM playing motor-tennis, Fisico would have finished only 4th, like in 2006!

[jens]

In 2006 Ferrari and Renault were equal only in the 2nd half, in the first half it was clear that Renault was superior and only MS could do some miracles with the Ferrari.

In 2005 the McLarens were sometimes up to Renaults speed, that's true, and KR and JPM were able to show their speed, but more often than not the cars were falling appart before reaching the finish line.

And however GF was pants and if it wasn't for JPM playing motor-tennis, Fisico would have finished only 4th, like in 2006!

I see your logic here. If Ferrari took overwhelming wins in the 2nd half of the season, they were just "equal"? Here comes out also your rating about Alonso. I'd say that by pure speed Alonso and Schumacher were pretty equal last year, so who had the faster car of the day, finished ahead (unless there were problems, mistakes etc, like in Turkey).

In 2005 McLarens sometimes up to Renault's speed? Since Imola Räikkönen was practically in every race the fastest, but you seem to insist that Alonso was so bad that he made the faster car to look slower? :p :

[ioan]

I see your logic here. If Ferrari took overwhelming wins in the 2nd half of the season, they were just "equal"? Here comes out also your rating about Alonso. I'd say that by pure speed Alonso and Schumacher were pretty equal last year, so who had the faster car of the day, finished ahead (unless there were problems, mistakes etc, like in Turkey).

In 2005 McLarens sometimes up to Renault's speed? Since Imola Räikkönen was practically in every race the fastest, but you seem to insist that Alonso was so bad that he made the faster car to look slower? :p :

I just judge drivers capability taking into account the quality of their cars, some are good in bad cars, some are good in good cars, other are bad in bad cars and there are those who are average to bad in good cars.

[agwiii]

An "I" means incomplete. That's not the bottom, it's an incomplete.

Some people cannot recognize sarcasm, humor, analogy, and other tools of the writer. To them, I send them back to class with a note to their Professor for them to repeat the course with particular attention to Professor Strunk's Elements Of Style.

[Mark in Oshawa]

1. Alonso
2. Kimi
Those two are much better than the rest

3. Button
4. Webber
5. Kubica
6. Massa
7. Kovalainen
8. Heidfeld
9. Fisico
10. Rosberg

I do this a little different.

Alonso, Kimi and MASSA are my picks. Felipe Massa will be a factor, and to have him listed 6th is a mistake. I think Kimi wont dominate Felipe the way Schumi did.

Anyhow, Alonso will go down to defeat to Kimi or Massa,
I put Webber, Kubica, Button and Heidfeld in as spoilers.....

[RJL25]

1 - Alonso - hes a machine
2 - Kimi - just as fast as alonso on his day, but a flawed personality means he is less consistant

then theres a bit of a gap to the rest

3 - Webber - he has alot of doubters but put him in a ferrari and he would give Kimi a big run for his money
4 - Massa - the kid is quick and Kimi better not underestimate him
5 - Button - i personally dont like the guy, but he IS very very good
6 - Kubica - like the look of this kid
7 - Heidfeld - still has his best years infront of him, just like Webber and Button

The rest i think are either un-proven quantities or guys who have had their chance and failed to excite. Ralf and DC in particular have had more then enough chances to prove their worth in F1 and to be brutal they have failed on every occasion. Its time for them to stop taking up the seats preventing young blokes from being given a chance

[agwiii]

Alonso, Kimi and MASSA are my picks. Felipe Massa will be a factor, and to have him listed 6th is a mistake. I think Kimi wont dominate Felipe the way Schumi did. Anyhow, Alonso will go down to defeat to Kimi or Massa, I put Webber, Kubica, Button and Heidfeld in as spoilers.

I agree. I believe many will be surprised at the difference in the way Ferrari is run in 2007, and in Felipe's speed. We'll see soon!

It does appear that the FFL ganged up on you to destroy your reputation points. Certainly not fair or appropriate, and not the intent of the rep points. However, they're meaningless, and those negatives reflect upon the poster, and not on you, Mark.

[ioan]

3 - Webber - he has alot of doubters but put him in a ferrari and he would give Kimi a big run for his money

...

Ralf and DC in particular have had more then enough chances to prove their worth in F1 and to be brutal they have failed on every occasion. Its time for them to stop taking up the seats preventing young blokes from being given a chance


So Webber it's 3rd best and DC and RS were never good?!
I see! :D

Edit: A driver has to show real speed to get a drive in a Ferrari, or another top team for that matter.

[jens]

After 4-5 races into the season write your rankings again here. It would be interesting to see, how much will they have changed by then. :)

[agwiii]

After 4-5 races into the season write your rankings again here. It would be interesting to see, how much will they have changed by then. :)

Very true! I found a prediction I made in 2004 and while some was on target, OMG!

[raikk]

Raikkonen
Alonso
Massa
Button
Hamilton
Kovvy
Fish

[Ian McC]

2 - Kimi - just as fast as alonso on his day, but a flawed personality means he is less consistant


Right..............

The only thing that makes him less consistant is the car he has been driving for the last few years.

[agwiii]

Right.............. The only thing that makes him less consistant is the car he has been driving for the last few years.

LOL :up:

I think Fast Freddie will learn this lesson the hard way in 2007. As my Grandmother said, those that won't listen have to feel.

;)

[RJL25]

So Webber it's 3rd best and DC and RS were never good?!
I see! :D

Edit: A driver has to show real speed to get a drive in a Ferrari, or another top team for that matter.

When did i say DC and RS where NEVER good? I never said that but we are talking about the drivers of 2007 not 1997! DC and RS have had numerous chances to prove their ability in F1. They have both had a number of seasons with top teams and rarely showed the sort of ability required to win a WDC. And if they can't win one of them then whats the point? Webber has NEVER had the same opportunities, never. And webber showed more "real" speed in a jaguar then massa showed in a sauber before getting his gig at ferrari. Potential is what got massa his drive.


Right..............

The only thing that makes him less consistant is the car he has been driving for the last few years.

kimi has had off days there is no doubting that. Fernando had a number of off days early on in his F1 career aswell, but in the last 2 years fernando has had less off days then kimi which is why i placed fernando infront of him. I'm still rating him the second best geez what more do you want? Im hardly going to place the guy who has won the last two world titles behind a guy who wasn't even in the mix last year now am i? come on behave..

At the end of the day this is my personal opinion and im not backing down from it

[ioan]

When did i say DC and RS where NEVER good? I never said that but we are talking about the drivers of 2007 not 1997! DC and RS have had numerous chances to prove their ability in F1. They have both had a number of seasons with top teams and rarely showed the sort of ability required to win a WDC.

Drivers stay as long as teams believe they can provide what it's needed.
But they showed they have very good abilities, even good winning skills!


And if they can't win one of them then whats the point?

What was the point to have 19 more drivers on track between 2000 and 2004, they didn't have much of a chance to beat MS?! (well maybe in 2003 with point scoring changes)
So why are they still around?!


Webber has NEVER had the same opportunities, never. And webber showed more "real" speed in a jaguar then massa showed in a sauber before getting his gig at ferrari. Potential is what got massa his drive.

So if Webber doesn't have potential than why give him a drive in a Ferrari when there are drivers with much more potential around, like Felipe and Kimi and many others?

As I see it Webber is a good driver, but not any better than DC or RS whom you are butchering.

[RJL25]

So if Webber doesn't have potential than why give him a drive in a Ferrari when there are drivers with much more potential around, like Felipe and Kimi and many others?

As I see it Webber is a good driver, but not any better than DC or RS whom you are butchering.

I never said Webber doesn't have potential! I simply said that Massa got his drive more on his potential rather then the raw speed he had showed when he was with Sauber. I think Webber has plenty of potential and if he managed to get a drive with Ferrari for example he could be a WDC.

As for DC. I am a DC fan beleive it or not, however he has had his opportunities in F1 and for whatever reason he has never made the most of those opportunities and now i think he is in the twilight of his career and RBR could have done better (seb bourdais anyone?). I dont blame DC for taking the drive! As if he wouldnt!! but as a team manager i wouldn't have signed him.

RS on the other hand i never really rated. He has had the occasional GP where he has shown that he can be as good as his brother, however those occasions are few and far between and i don't think there is very many people around who thinks he will ever be a WDC. Heck theres alot of people who think he would never have even made F1 if not for his last name! Personally i dont agree with that, but i dont think he is good enough to be a champ and therefore doesn't make my list of the top drivers of 2007!

Everyone seems to be slamming me for having a go at these older drivers but please remember this is a thread for ranking the drivers of 2007! Not the best drivers of all time!! RS and DC may have been able to challenge in the past but they are no longer at that level!

[ioan]

As we have seen in the past, being a champion has to do also with other qualities than driving skills. Also the car's performance is one of the most important things (see JV's one and only F1 WDC title).
DC and RS could still win a WDC if the car they will drive will be up to the task.

Anyway, this year MW will be able to show is he better than DC and than we can settle this comparison.

[agwiii]

As we have seen in the past, being a champion has to do also with other qualities than driving skills.

:up:

Very well said.

[Ian McC]

Anyway, this year MW will be able to show is he better than DC and than we can settle this comparison.


Yes, should be interesting that one :)

[jens]

After 4-5 races into the season write your rankings again here. It would be interesting to see, how much will they have changed by then. :)

I've cited myself. So how would your first conclusions look like?

[ioan]

Hamilton is a revelation, the others (Ferrari drivers and FA) are as good as I supposed.

[aryan]

I think none of us expected Hamilton to be this good.

Massa has faired better than I thought, KR not so. I still have faith in Kimi though.

FA has been as like he has always been, consistent podium finisher and constant WDC contender. His problem is that this year he has a teammate who is even more consistent than him.