New tyre rule dangerous?

[KF1800]

With the new tyre rule being that their are no self-inflating mousses allowed, the need to stop and change tyres is going to be much greater.

With drivers and codrivers working on their cars so close to the roadside I really hope that this doesn't lead to injuries or even worse!!!

[ZequeArgentina]

With the new tyre rule being that their are no self-inflating mousses allowed, the need to stop and change tyres is going to be much greater.

With drivers and codrivers working on their cars so close to the roadside I really hope that this doesn't lead to injuries or even worse!!!

Welcome to rallying KF1800, this is what rallying has always been like, taking care of the car, finding the correct rithm, and if happening, changing tyres!!!!!!!!!!

[Daniel]

The fatality that occured previously in the WRC was the result of someone not taking care. It's part of being a spectator and competitor to take care of where you are around the 2 minute mark when the next car comes past.

[KF1800]

Welcome to rallying KF1800, this is what rallying has always been like, taking care of the car, finding the correct rithm, and if happening, changing tyres!!!!!!!!!!

I realise that but the pressure to perform at this level is so high that it could lead to competitors changing tyres in maybe not the safest spot which in turn could result in an accident.

I was standing in the stage in Catalunya WRC 06 when the ambulance came through to pick up the young guy who got killed while changing a tyre (after an accident though). Not a nice feeling. This was a freack occurence but they can happen more than once.

[Fleur]

I hope not either.
But, remember, it is only the WRC cars that have had this mousse. PWRC, JWRC and other Group N entrants have all had to either stop and change or drive out on a flat, and most seem to manage to stop in a safe place so....
Surely the experience and common sense of WRC drivers will prevail.

[COD]

I hope not either.
But, remember, it is only the WRC cars that have had this mousse. PWRC, JWRC and other Group N entrants have all had to either stop and change or drive out on a flat, and most seem to manage to stop in a safe place so....
Surely the experience and common sense of WRC drivers will prevail.

Exactly. Great post. Nothing to add to that

[miksu]

How about tyre exploding at a high speed? Before mousse helped to stabilize the car, right? What about now...i think thats a bigger concern, or is it?

[Daniel]

The thing is that very rarely happens. With mousses the drivers are cutting corners more and more which is more dangerous than the extremely unlikely risk of a tyre just exploding.

[ZequeArgentina]

The thing is that very rarely happens. With mousses the drivers are cutting corners more and more which is more dangerous than the extremely unlikely risk of a tyre just exploding.

Exactly, and also cutting corners have made driving for those after first 10 to become much more dangerous.
If there is less corner cutting, then it is more safe, for everyone!!

[MrJan]

People do realise that WR cars haven't always had this system (only fairly recently has an effective mousse been developed) and that before this drivers weren't all killinbg each other.

It is up to the driver to find a safe place to stop when a change is need, although I'd imagine that most will just drive on rims. As for exploding tyres, not a regular occurance but one that most top rally drivers will be skilled enough to deal with, think of how many times we see other mechanical failures such as steering and suspension.

[Daniel]

We should just ban mechanical failures :) The only driver I can remember who has had an explosive tyre failure is Kenneth Ericsson in the Subaru and that was ages ago in testing. But my memory isn't that great :p

[MrJan]

We should just ban mechanical failures :)

Genius. Think of what that will do to the TV ratings, no more need for superrally if no cars have mechanical failures.

[Daniel]

We need to get together to form a global thinktank for ideas to help the WRC. We also need to ban rain as AFF suggested a while ago.

[Finni]

Enjoy when races are decided by exploded tyres.. nice

If group N is any indication we have at least every other race decided by broken tyre. I suppose that those tyres for wrc-cars are more durable but they should be hugely stronger because due to power and corner speeds of wrc-cars.

[shurik]

We need to get together to form a global thinktank for ideas to help the WRC. We also need to ban rain as AFF suggested a while ago.
Ban the rain... that was a nice one :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Imo it is not a big deal, a bit of gambling wont be bad for WRC. Imagine Rally of Japan drama on every stage next year.. Better buy a new dvd recorder :D

[koko0703]

But mouses sometimes don't work either.... And as mentioned above, there was a time when mouses wasn't available. Rallying is both speed and endurance, and taking care of tyre while driving is also a skill, which is one of the indications to tell who's the best.

[bluuford]

I think that this tire rule might change quite a lot. So far WRC drivers were cutting corners as much as they could (without breaking suspension components).

PWRC is using tires without ATS and like you can see, some drivers are getting something like 5-10 punctures per rally, some are getting 1-2 punctures, some of them wont get any (rarely).

I just don't understand how it is possible that Pirelli creates new tires that wont get any punctures even if the tires are used with much more powerful car? That means, drivers should change their driving style quite a lot?

I was asking from myself that, should they drive less sideways now? That is tricky question. Of course the tires wear less when they are driving less sideways but now the corners are much deeper and there are more corners (They cannot cut straight some of the easier corners. and cannot make harder corners more straight).

So. To continue my too long post I assume that the time difference between WRC and PWRC cars spend on the stages should decrease in two reasons:
1) WRC drivers cannot cut the corners so much anymore;
2) PWRC drivers can use the same lines created by WRC drivers and may hope that there are less stones on the road that it was before (read: road is not destroyed).

And my final opinion. I think that the graduates from JRC and PWRC are in a good position because they know how to avoid punctures and how to change the tires really fast.

[MrJan]

I don't think that there'll be a recognisable difference in terms of driving, just the number of punctures. Lets be honest though, there are regular punctures anyway.

[jparker]

Crash.net:
Next year there will be a control tyre (http://www.crash.net/motorsport/wrc/news/158226-1/qa_toni_gardemeister_-_exclusive.html#) in the WRC with Pirelli coming in. What do you think of that?

Toni Gardemeister:
The tyre will be the same for everybody - and it is good to do this. I have done a few tests already for Pirelli (http://www.crash.net/motorsport/wrc/news/158226-1/qa_toni_gardemeister_-_exclusive.html#) and I know the grvel tyres quite well. I haven't tested the tarmac tyres yet. I was quite pleased with the gravel tyres. They were quite quick still compared to the old tyres and they were very reliable.
I just hope he's not just too diplomatic in his answer.

[Langdale Forest]

If moussess are banned, it will be intresting to see what will happen on that 48 kilometer stage in Greece!

[Daniel]

If moussess are banned, it will be intresting to see what will happen on that 48 kilometer stage in Greece!
You might see punctures a big more often I'm guessing? :)

[Helstar]

It will depend on the accuracy of driving, luck, circumstances (wrong pressures, weather/surface changes etc.).

But I'm surprised to hear that the tyres are still so fast... I thought they were going to develop a really HARD tyre which will sustain big impacts, less grip -> slower performances -> sideways action. But let's see...

[Daniel]

Helstar. Pirelli couldn't make fast tyres before. What makes you think they can now? It will be a miracle if they are not rock hard.

[Helstar]

Helstar. Pirelli couldn't make fast tyres before. What makes you think they can now? It will be a miracle if they are not rock hard.
Did you read Garde interview ? You seem to read what you want only ... or just lazy :p ?

[Magnus]

I think it is good to ban mousse, looking at Loeb he never uses it anyway, judging from his grungy looks. :)

Banning mousse is good me thinks because it simplifies things a little bit and make the competition a tiny bit more even. Having no mousse in the tires means also that you have one rather compicated issue less to bother about. We have had many drivers troughtout the last years who have been suffering from tire vibrations and there have also been not that very few instances where the mousse have not been working properly.

The design of these tires are rather complicated, and I think it is good for rallying to get rid of at least one more aspect which can cause problems and do not have to do with pure driving skills. Besides it spares money.
Regarding the safety issue I think it is not that agreat problem, as pointed out above.

[Daniel]

Did you read Garde interview ? You seem to read what you want only ... or just lazy :p ?
Lazy my friend :D

[COD]

According to Mikko Hirvonen (from a Finnish paper), thay had 0 punctures on Sweden test with the new tyre. the problem was though, that they lost all studs from some tyres, so quality was not consistant.

[Daniel]

According to Mikko Hirvonen (from a Finnish paper), thay had 0 punctures on Sweden test with the new tyre. the problem was though, that they lost all studs from some tyres, so quality was not consistant.
Sweden is not exactly the best indicator of the toughness of a tyre though :) What you said pretty much backs up what i'm saying about the quality of Pirelli tyres. Please don't think I'm anti-Italian or anything. I love Italian cars and the Pirelli's I had on my Peugeot back in Australia were great on gravel but if I had a rally car I wouldn't touch Pirelli's :mark:

[Erki]

Enjoy when races are decided by exploded tyres.. nice

If group N is any indication we have at least every other race decided by broken tyre. I suppose that those tyres for wrc-cars are more durable but they should be hugely stronger because due to power and corner speeds of wrc-cars.

Were any rallies in the BRC(GpN only) decided by punctures?

Number one reason why GpN/S1600 cars get a lot of punctures in WRC rounds is that the WRCars pull out the rocks and ruin the road for everyone else. With everyone on even ground, this shouldn't happen.

[leno]

Sweden is not exactly the best indicator of the toughness of a tyre though :) What you said pretty much backs up what i'm saying about the quality of Pirelli tyres. Please don't think I'm anti-Italian or anything. I love Italian cars and the Pirelli's I had on my Peugeot back in Australia were great on gravel but if I had a rally car I wouldn't touch Pirelli's :mark:

I think pirelli are better on gravel than bf goodrich

[J4MIE]

Judging by Pirelli's past poor performance on gravel I won't be surprised to see a lot of punctures next year. I think what Daniel is referring to is examples like Harri Rovanpera in New Zealand a few years ago when he finished the final stage with tyres on the canvas, then he ended up not being able to drive back to the finish and had to retire. That year there was a rediculous amount of wear on Pirelli's when BFG tyres didn't miss a beat.

There were a few eyebrows raised when Pirelli were awarded the contract...

[Daniel]

Judging by Pirelli's past poor performance on gravel I won't be surprised to see a lot of punctures next year. I think what Daniel is referring to is examples like Harri Rovanpera in New Zealand a few years ago when he finished the final stage with tyres on the canvas, then he ended up not being able to drive back to the finish and had to retire. That year there was a rediculous amount of wear on Pirelli's when BFG tyres didn't miss a beat.

There were a few eyebrows raised when Pirelli were awarded the contract...
Yes. Petter's last season in a proper Impreza was wasted by the fact that the tyres were forever falling apart by the end of the first or second stage on the loop. Pirelli went on about how the rallies were warmer than they expected but then still made the same "mistake" in just about all the gravel rallies that year. This is why I'm worried about Pirelli being the sole supplier of tyres next year. They just couldn't make a tyre to deal with a change of a few degrees in temperature and that was when they were allowed to choose which tyres for which rallies. Now they've got a limited amount of tyres for the whole season and now they'll have to deal with it being barely above 0 for Rally GB and 40+ in the meditteranean events. Thank god it's not me putting my trust in these tyres. I could be wrong and I probably am but history doesn't paint a goof picture of Pirelli's rally tyre skills of late.

[Magnus]

Yes Daniel; but at the same time the impreza ought to be hard on the tires due to the higher polar moment of inertia of the car compared to the other ones. Relatively speaking the tires on the Impreza should become warmer than on other cars on any given rally.

[Daniel]

Yes but the other cars were eating tyres also.

[Erki]

Yes but the other cars were eating tyres also.

Which ones? Peugeots? Wouldn't that be obvious? :)

[Helstar]

Yes Pirelli had some problems back in time, I remember also Gigi with no tyres left in NZ 2005.

But there was a thing called "competition" - with Michelin. They tried to find the best balance between performance and reliability. When you are slower you try to gain speed by sacrificing reliability, and they failed...

Now there isn't competition anymore so the tyres have only to last. I think (hope) there won't be any problems. Would be a shame for them if all cars destroy the tyres in a couple of stages and a bad publicity for sure.

Ps. On snow Pirelli tyres have always been if not better, at least same level of Michelin (look at Gigi with Xsara in Sweden and Norway).

[c4]

Tyre rules for 08 http://www.wrc.com/page/News/BreakingNewsDetail/0,,10111~1200541,00.html

[MJW]

Tyre rules for 08 http://www.wrc.com/page/News/BreakingNewsDetail/0,,10111~1200541,00.html
Beat me to it. Interesting about the cuts thing, only on asphalt and then to strictly controlled drawings (patterns) This could be a big shakeup to next years (yawn) Loeb / Citroen domination. Drivers will also have to be more careful with the lines they were making, often 1.5metres or more off the road and in the ditches, also caused road verge damage.

[gloomyDAY]

What's everyone take on the new tyre rules?

I'm not sure what the advantages are to limiting teams to the kind of tyres they would like to use. Sure, it cuts costs, but at the same time can hinder a winning team. I've also been reading some of the posts left by all of you and it is concerning how Pirelli has stacked against the competition. Not very reassuring!

Why did Pirelli get the contract?

[Simmi]

Didnt Pirelli have a lot of plans for young driver schemes and stuff like that. I know there is one in the BRC. It is quite clear as has been said that the decision was not made on the basis of who can make the best tyres.

[Glee]

With only one tyre to chose among, we will have an end to "it's on the tyre".

And maybe it indeed will reduce cost, since the weatherman is in no use anymore.

[jparker]

Sure, it cuts costs, but at the same time can hinder a winning team.
That's exactly what I'm afraid from. The cost of retiring from WRC event is much higher then anything else. Saving money from something that vital as tires is not good strategy overall.

[Daniel]

It's not so much about the cost of tyres. It's also about the sport and equality in it. Why do people somehow think next year is going to be a year where drivers are getting a puncture each stage? Plus are punctures really that bad? They were a part of rallying before mousses became so reliable. Do people have such short memories?

[jparker]

It's not so much about the cost of tyres. It's also about the sport and equality in it. Why do people somehow think next year is going to be a year where drivers are getting a puncture each stage? Plus are punctures really that bad? They were a part of rallying before mousses became so reliable. Do people have such short memories?

The scope of my post was just the cost, nothing else.
Not that I agree with the rest of your comment, but it seams most people think the same way you do, so I'll pass on that one.

[MJW]

And maybe it indeed will reduce cost, since the weatherman is in no use anymore.

I think the weather crews will still be there, I assume tyre pressures will become the new cuts.

Also punctures have decied the JWRC in previous years but they were driving just after the WRC cars had dragged massive rocks into the path of these cars. Sure it WILL need a change of driving style, the damn the consequences because I have puncture proof tyres mentality will not work anymore.

[Brother John]

Ho need excpensive tyres and speed to have fun? :D ;)

http://www.motorsportmad.com/view/2185/look-at-this-kid-drive--fantastic

[Magnus]

Ho need excpensive tyres and speed to have fun? :D ;)

http://www.motorsportmad.com/view/2185/look-at-this-kid-drive--fantastic

Yeah, there should be a rule that cars must have plastic tires on tar, especially Citroën

[White Sauron]

Interesting thoughts about tyre wear in the new edition of Martin Holmes book.
For example, there's written that Sebastien has a god ability to avoid unnecessary wheelspins which leads to better rubber protection. Maybe because of this Seb once again can be in advantage this season...