Should the McLaren drivers have their WDC points deducted for this year?

[Valve Bounce]

pino, could we have a poll please? Thanks!

In light of the fact that McLaren were using Ferrari technology, copying their designs and even had their drivers asking their mole at Ferrari on setups for each race, I feel strongly that both drivers should have their wins, podiums and all other points annulled for this year for blatant cheating.

So if pino will grant us a poll, a Yes vote would see the two score zero points, and the rest of the field moved up in points accordingly. After all, this is in line with the McLaren appeal against Williams and BMW so I can only call it poetic justice.

[Rollo]

Kimi won the title through decent driving. Ferrari won the Constructors' Title.
At the end of the day, this is all that's important. The titles went to appropriate champions.

It's as fruitless an exercise as disqualifying Schumacher from 1997. No-one cares who came second - second is the first loser. "If you ain't first, you're last!"

[Valve Bounce]

Kimi won the title through decent driving. Ferrari won the Constructors' Title.
At the end of the day, this is all that's important. The titles went to appropriate champions.

It's as fruitless an exercise as disqualifying Schumacher from 1997. No-one cares who came second - second is the first loser. "If you ain't first, you're last!"

Not quite so!! there are many other drivers further down the line who would appreciate more points instead of having them awarded to drivers who participated in cars which benefitted from cheating. Sato would get more points, and maybe others of ower teams would also appreciate some points. The two McLaren drivers certainly don't deserve any.

P.S. Even Bunsen would get a couple more points, maybe!!

[CNR]

Rubens Barrichello (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2007/8.html)

Australian (http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2007/770/)18 Mar 2007Honda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2912.html)161100Malaysian (http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2007/771/)08 Apr 2007Honda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2912.html)221100Bahrain (http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2007/772/)15 Apr 2007Honda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2912.html)151300Spanish (http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2007/773/)13 May 2007Honda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2912.html)121000 1 Monaco (http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2007/774/)27 May 2007Honda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2912.html)91000 2Canadian (http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2007/775/)10 Jun 2007Honda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2912.html)131200United States (http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2007/776/)17 Jun 2007Honda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2912.html)15Ret00French (http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2007/777/)01 Jul 2007Honda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2912.html)131100British (http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2007/778/)08 Jul 2007Honda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2912.html)13900 2European (http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2007/779/)22 Jul 2007Honda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2912.html)141100Hungarian (http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2007/780/)05 Aug 2007Honda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2912.html)181800Turkish (http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2007/781/)26 Aug 2007Honda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2912.html)221700Italian (http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2007/782/)09 Sep 2007Honda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2912.html)121000 1Belgian (http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2007/783/)16 Sep 2007Honda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2912.html)171300Japanese (http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2007/784/)30 Sep 2007Honda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2912.html)161000Chinese (http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2007/785/)07 Oct 2007Honda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2912.html)161500Brazilian (http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2007/786/)21 Oct 2007Honda (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2007/2912.html)11Ret00

six points

[ioan]

Kimi won the title through decent driving. Ferrari won the Constructors' Title.
At the end of the day, this is all that's important. The titles went to appropriate champions.

It's as fruitless an exercise as disqualifying Schumacher from 1997. No-one cares who came second - second is the first loser. "If you ain't first, you're last!"


Not so fast!
MS was disqualified and people continue coming up with that from time to time.

The McLaren drivers will have 2nd and 3rd places in the record books even if they didn't deserve it.

My answer is yes, they should be DQ-ed from the 2007 season to keep statistics clean.

[markabilly]

pino, could we have a poll please? Thanks!

In light of the fact that McLaren were using Ferrari technology, copying their designs and even had their drivers asking their mole at Ferrari on setups for each race, I feel strongly that both drivers should have their wins, podiums and all other points annulled for this year for blatant cheating.

So if pino will grant us a poll, a Yes vote would see the two score zero points, and the rest of the field moved up in points accordingly. After all, this is in line with the McLaren appeal against Williams and BMW so I can only call it poetic justice.

I would agree 100% but once the immunity offer was made, then it would be dishonest to put a penalty on FA or Pedro who responded.

On the other hand, given the August 8th revelation about senior officials at Mac discussing Ferrari stuff, as well as my suspicion that LH MUST have known and had also such information, given Ron's policy of equality, the ease that the Ferrari stuff was being discussed by the other two drivers,the fact according to RD was that all it took was a very veiled reference to emails and laptop when FA blew up over his team mate's actions and protests costing him five grid places and within seconds RD was on the phone to MaX, the fact that LH was in the most inner circle for several years as a Ron project--unlike the newcomer FA--and LH turned nothing over, then the letter offer of immunity was never accepted by LH.

NOT that it matters.

As I have said from the very first post on this website, it is all about the money and greed. Call me cynical, paranoid or whatever, but I predicted exactly what happenned on the 100 million dollar fine by doing nothing other than applying certain "principles". If I had been awake and applied those principles again as late as Monday, I would have predicted exactly what happenned later this week.

Because LH represents a real big source of income already flowing into bernie, FIA, MaX and RD pockets (indeed into all of the pockets of F1, including Ferrari, as they all profit by increased interest in the sport in nunerous ways as people will pay attention and money just to see LH get beat or Ferrari beat evil Mac), LH is untouchable and above reproach.

However RD is not so profitable himself, so he may well lose his head over this as a symbolic act for the others to use to keep hiding the truth behind the veil of hypocrisy. Remember "never tell anyone outside the family what you are really thinking", because it would destroy interst---after all what is the point inarguing about the merits of did they actually cheat, etc, when the outcome will be determined on the basis of greed of certain folks. Anyway, I digress.

The real poll should be is what "should be the penalty in 2008?" A ban for the season? Eight races? No driver or WCC points?

After all, LH did not accept that letter offer of immunity....

After all, the Mac is clearly illegal, being based on stolen info for 2008, and using the logic of mac's own appeal where their lawyer said, gee, if illegal then the drivers must lose their points, tis only fitting that what they would impose on others should be done to them.

But will it happen? When hell freezes over.....too much hot greed for cash to let it get that cold :vader:

[N. Jones]

Why the hell not!

Let's also make them drive on three wheels and we will confiscate their radios too...

[ioan]

Why the hell not!

Let's also make them drive on three wheels and we will confiscate their radios too...

We should also ban their clueless supporters from the internet forums! :rolleyes:

[Mickey T]

we better wipe the season points off the renault drivers, too.

after all, neither of them were even offered immunity.

[harvick#1]

yes,

they cheated, got caught, they should've been banned from finishing the season,

[yodasarmpit]

We should also ban their clueless supporters from the internet forums! :rolleyes: Yep, looks like I'll be using the ignore list for the first ever time on an internet forum.

[keysersoze]

I DQ'd Alonso and Hamilton and adjusted the finishing order and points. This may have some errors, but here goes:

1. Kimi 138 points (9 wins)
2. Massa 113 (6 wins)
3. Heidfeld 87 (1 win)
4. Kubica 56
5. Kovalainen 53 (1 win)
6. Fisichella 40
7. Rosberg 36
8. Webber 23 (1 podium)
9. Trulli 23 (no podiums)
10. Wurz 21 (a 2nd place finish)
11. Coulthard 21
12. Schumacher 13
13. Button 12
14. Vettel 9
15. Sato 7
16. Luizzi 5
17. Barrichello 4
18 tie Speed and Sutil 2
20 Nakajima 1

[Big Ben]

We should also ban their clueless supporters from the internet forums! :rolleyes:

and a slow witted member of this forum for being the most annoying person I've never met.

[ioan]

and a slow witted member of this forum for being the most annoying person I've never met.

You should feel happy about that. :laugh:

[airshifter]

I didn't vote, but if I did it would be a no vote.

As much as I think they deserve to be DQ'd, they were offered immunity in the deal. The fault lies with the investigation and the way it was handled. As it stands guilty parties will go down in the record books as outperforming other drivers and teams who didn't cheat and deserve the positions more.

[N. Jones]

We should also ban their clueless supporters from the internet forums! :rolleyes:

Not a supporter.... just tired of the mob that has been salivating to hang Ron Dennis AND McLaren since day one.

[Valve Bounce]

I DQ'd Alonso and Hamilton and adjusted the finishing order and points. This may have some errors, but here goes:

1. Kimi 138 points (9 wins)
2. Massa 113 (6 wins)
3. Heidfeld 87 (1 win)
4. Kubica 56
5. Kovalainen 53 (1 win)
6. Fisichella 40
7. Rosberg 36
8. Webber 23 (1 podium)
9. Trulli 23 (no podiums)
10. Wurz 21 (a 2nd place finish)
11. Coulthard 21
12. Schumacher 13
13. Button 12
14. Vettel 9
15. Sato 7
16. Luizzi 5
17. Barrichello 4
18 tie Speed and Sutil 2
20 Nakajima 1

This is very interresting.
I have also checked the posts so far, and I cannot find anyone who has come up with a plausible argument why the McLaren drivers should keep their points.

OK, so they were offered immunity, but immunity from what? getting suspended for cheating? This was all before the systemic cheating came to light with the latest apology from McLaren.

[truefan72]

..and what's the point of this ?

are we at a point where now we indulge in tetroactive wishful thinking?

wow

If the FIA in their insanity has seen it fit to end the affair and leave things as they are, why then is it still an issue. They haven't recieved moneyfor their points, nor WCC standing so what's the point?

[truefan72]

We should also ban their clueless supporters from the internet forums! :rolleyes:

ioan be careful what you wish for :)

as a quick look in the mirror might reveal your own unabashed loyalties to a particular team. What's good for the goose should be good for the gander right?

...can't we all just get along?

LOL

[ioan]

ioan be careful what you wish for :)

as a quick look in the mirror might reveal your own unabashed loyalties to a particular team. What's good for the goose should be good for the gander right?

...can't we all just get along?

LOL

I tried to restrain myself from an even worse post at that moment, and I think that given the circumstances (the post I answered) my answer was mild.

[markabilly]

ioan be careful what you wish for :)

as a quick look in the mirror might reveal your own unabashed loyalties to a particular team. What's good for the goose should be good for the gander right?

...can't we all just get along?

LOL

Okay MS spun and rubbed his plank a little thin, lost his points for that race and served a two race ban for the next two races. So instead of one small problem, we now have at least three doucmented "problems" so let us just do that....let see, three races per problem times three problems works out to a nine race ban for team mac for 2008...Hey I could live with that as setting the tone for cheaters and liars, just fine.

[jso1985]

This is very interresting.
I have also checked the posts so far, and I cannot find anyone who has come up with a plausible argument why the McLaren drivers should keep their points.


Because where's the need of further punishment? the FIA already knew they lied and cheated months ago, McLaren's new statement doesn't give anything new. In my view deducting their points would only take the whole spying saga further away when it's clear it needs to be over.

And taking previous deducting punishments from the FIA, other results wouldn't be changed, so still 0 points for Nakajima for example, so noone would benefit from them

[airshifter]

This is very interresting.
I have also checked the posts so far, and I cannot find anyone who has come up with a plausible argument why the McLaren drivers should keep their points.

OK, so they were offered immunity, but immunity from what? getting suspended for cheating? This was all before the systemic cheating came to light with the latest apology from McLaren.


Valve,

I don't at all like that the immunity deal was made. I think a proper investigation would have negated the need to make such a deal. However, being that the entire affair is already a mess, the powers that be should at least keep their word.

Removing the drivers points would only prove that the governing body is willing to lie, making them just as guilty as McLaren.



Personally once I saw evidence that Fernando and Pedro played a part in the Ferrari information they were both losers in my mind. That's a shame, because as drivers I think they both have good abilities. With Lewis I feel he may have known as well, but short of some evidence of that I would give him the benefit of the doubt.

If the car itself did not actually benefit the drivers earned the points from racing on track. I would not have a problem with the points being removed for their parts in the unsporting behavior involved for those proven to have taken part in distribution and intent to use the Ferrari information. But in the grand scheme of this mess called an investigation, that would only serve to prove that the "judges" in the court were not men of their word.

[winer]

..and what's the point of this ?

are we at a point where now we indulge in tetroactive wishful thinking?

wow

If the FIA in their insanity has seen it fit to end the affair and leave things as they are, why then is it still an issue. They haven't recieved moneyfor their points, nor WCC standing so what's the point?

I agree completely. There is no point to this exercise.

Of course there has been cheating in F1. There always has been and probably always will be. At least now it will not be blatant and obvious. The FIA has achieved their purpose in attempting to restrict the practice. It is now water under the bridge - ancient history. Lets get on with 2008.

[ClarkFan]

pino, could we have a poll please? Thanks!

In light of the fact that McLaren were using Ferrari technology, copying their designs and even had their drivers asking their mole at Ferrari on setups for each race, I feel strongly that both drivers should have their wins, podiums and all other points annulled for this year for blatant cheating.

So if pino will grant us a poll, a Yes vote would see the two score zero points, and the rest of the field moved up in points accordingly. After all, this is in line with the McLaren appeal against Williams and BMW so I can only call it poetic justice.

Valve,
I think you are really barking up the wrong season. McLaren seems to have been caught using Ferrari data to develop their 2008 car. This seems at least as serious to me as BAR's phantom tank issue in 2005, and McLaren even committed the BAR sin of false representation, continuing to use the data after pledging to sin no more. BAR caught a 2 race "holiday" for their troubles. That seems like a reasonable minimum for McLaren.

ClarkFan

[F1boat]

Kimi won the title through decent driving. Ferrari won the Constructors' Title.
At the end of the day, this is all that's important. The titles went to appropriate champions.

[/b]

Exactly. Better give McLaren some punishment for 2008 season.

[markabilly]

If there is no penalty, then there might as well NOT be much in rules about stealing anything from another team. Mac has again been caught cheating and lieing--and in the absence of the inspection, it would have continued and gone unabated in 2008

Not even the penalty imposed on MS for a plank too thin, not the penalty for certain race tank features.....besides

Who is dumb enough to think after all the the lies and nonsense of this year from them, that this freeze "promise" means anything. Ignore all the other lies, and look solely at this one inescapable fact:

Knowing that they were facing this inspection, they still had the utter gall and lack of ethics to attempt to slide this car right through into 2008 in hopes of continuing to cheat in 2008.

[PSfan]

Well, I'm rather indifferent as to whether or not the drivers should be stripped of their 2007 points or not, as I don't see it changing the final results for anyone else, just might make it easier for some Hamilton fans to digest his final 2 races seeing as it wouldn't have mattered in the end because he would have had the championship stripped from him anyways.

I however want to disagree with the assumption that the drivers having complete immunity by providing evidence in the 2nd hearing. What would have happened if Mcleran where to been discovered to had gained a clear advantage by using Ferrari document? Let the drivers continue, I think not. The immunity concerned their superlicenses, by testifying they could continue to race. Had things gone terribly bad without that agreement, we could have seen Alonso, Hamilton and PDR watching F1 in 08 instead of participating.

[truefan72]

I tried to restrain myself from an even worse post at that moment, and I think that given the circumstances (the post I answered) my answer was mild.

cool

[truefan72]

I agree completely. There is no point to this exercise.

Of course there has been cheating in F1. There always has been and probably always will be. At least now it will not be blatant and obvious. The FIA has achieved their purpose in attempting to restrict the practice. It is now water under the bridge - ancient history. Lets get on with 2008.

yyes i agree, but unfortunately in the verry next case very similar and with even more damning evidence and an acknowledgemnt of actual use of data by the accuesed team, the FIA decided to assess no fine or punishement. So I'm not so sure that they have gotten a hold on metting out punishment equally.

It is still a big tool from which Max Mosley chooses to use in whatever manner he sees fit. A tool he' has used and will continue to do so in avindictive and pwersonal manner.

[markabilly]

yyes i agree, but unfortunately in the verry next case very similar and with even more damning evidence and an acknowledgemnt of actual use of data by the accuesed team, the FIA decided to assess no fine or punishement. So I'm not so sure that they have gotten a hold on metting out punishment equally.

.


He is just confusing the two teams as only difference between the "next case" and then the true very next case (aka the latest) is "...even more damning evidence and an acknowledgement of actual use by the accused team.....", even though that team knew well in advance what to do and expect....but no punishment though caught actively cheating again and would have continued to do so had they not been caught, to say nothing of a certain mole who was feeding them live information as to team race strategy.....but goes unpunished for its latest transgressions

gee, I wonder who that team could be?

[jas123f1]

I said No.
The reason is that it's time to leave this scandal behind us now.
McLaren, Ferrari and FIA have made this compromises and i accept it because Ferrari accepted it. I hope and believe that nest season will be free of all kind spy and other scandals so i can't see any reason continue with the olds.

What we ever think so all scandals are very damaging for the motorsport.

:)

[Rover V8]

I said No.
The reason is that it's time to leave this scandal behind us now.
McLaren, Ferrari and FIA have made this compromises and i accept it because Ferrari accepted it. I hope and believe that nest season will be free of all kind spy and other scandals so i can't see any reason continue with the olds.

What we ever think so all scandals are very damaging for the motorsport.

:)

Probably the most sense I've heard on this whole sorry catalogue of events- I'm getting to the stage when personally I'm beginning to think there's only one sensible outcome- for the FIA to just declare the whole damn 2007 season null and void, and wipe it from the record books entirely....

[wmcot]

Valve,
I think you are really barking up the wrong season. McLaren seems to have been caught using Ferrari data to develop their 2008 car. This seems at least as serious to me as BAR's phantom tank issue in 2005, and McLaren even committed the BAR sin of false representation, continuing to use the data after pledging to sin no more. BAR caught a 2 race "holiday" for their troubles. That seems like a reasonable minimum for McLaren.

ClarkFan

Agreed! A letter of apology doesn't give them the freedom to use any data they wish on the 2008 car! There are serious doubts about the 2008 car and they need to be addressed!

[s12impreza]

the car should not be let enter the 2008-or-2009 championships simple as that, the data they gained wll be to there advanage for a couple of years to come.
an apology letter and the let use the car disgracesful and i dont support either Ferrari or mclaren this is a neutrals point of view as i follow rallyng more than f1.. that car should be ripped to shreads from top to bottom and compared to the ferrari car and also, they should not be let start development for there new car until late 08.
or
ferrari should be given mclarens data only things i can see that should happen
as regards drivers points yes they should be stripped as it the records that are set will go down unfairly as the stats will have been gained by a default car

[airshifter]

or
ferrari should be given mclarens data .......



As crazy as it sounds, that would probably be the best way to level the field once again. As you said, the ideas the McLaren engineers got from Ferrari, whether used or not, may have changed the direction of their thinking.

There is also the problem now that if McLaren do make a system similar, but of their own concept, they might have to change it to avoid possible accusations or DQ because it's similar to Ferrari.

[wmcot]

As crazy as it sounds, that would probably be the best way to level the field once again. As you said, the ideas the McLaren engineers got from Ferrari, whether used or not, may have changed the direction of their thinking.

There is also the problem now that if McLaren do make a system similar, but of their own concept, they might have to change it to avoid possible accusations or DQ because it's similar to Ferrari.

Which brings me back to my earlier question - now that McLaren have admitted wrongdoing and apologized, they have agreed to freeze any development that may have been inspired by Ferrari data. Since they have frozen the design who will check to make sure no more work has been done in these areas? Will we just have to take them at their word? (We know what that's worth!) Will the FIA still inspect the 2008 car since the case has been closed?

[LeonBrooke]

I think that if you're going to ban the team from scoring points then it's a bit hypocritical to let the drivers score points from those same cars. However, the political realities of the situation mean that there was no way that it was ever going to happen.

Aside from offer of immunity, there was the fact that this year many people thought that this year was one of the most exciting in F1 for ages. Banning the McLaren drivers from scoring points would cut the title fight from a four-way battle to a two-way battle between teammates - people would have turned off in droves, and there's no way that the FIA would have allowed that.

[markabilly]

Which brings me back to my earlier question - now that McLaren have admitted wrongdoing and apologized, they have agreed to freeze any development that may have been inspired by Ferrari data. Since they have frozen the design who will check to make sure no more work has been done in these areas? Will we just have to take them at their word? (We know what that's worth!) Will the FIA still inspect the 2008 car since the case has been closed?


You mean like they check fuel temps??? :D


I think that if you're going to ban the team from scoring points then it's a bit hypocritical to let the drivers score points from those same cars. However, the political realities of the situation mean that there was no way that it was ever going to happen.

Aside from offer of immunity, there was the fact that this year many people thought that this year was one of the most exciting in F1 for ages. Banning the McLaren drivers from scoring points would cut the title fight from a four-way battle to a two-way battle between teammates - people would have turned off in droves, and there's no way that the FIA would have allowed that.


"political realities" ???? Change it to "financial realities" and I agree with everything you said

And this is the reason that mac goes unpunished and the inspections will be a joke---Bernie wants Hamilton to win the 2008 WDC, he wanted it in 2007 as well, he thinks it will generate more revenue no matter how artificially manufactured the competition and sportsmanship becomes :s mokin:

[Rollo]

the car should not be let enter the 2008-or-2009 championships simple as that, the data they gained wll be to there advanage for a couple of years to come.

Top idea. Kill McLaren.

Toyota were banned from the WRC over their turbochargers in their Celica GT4. Although they did come back after the ban, it set in motion a set of events which would within three years see Toyota quit the WRC after being there for 21 years.
Given that McLaren are already finding it difficult to find investors on top of their £100m fine, banning them for two years would most likely see the entity go the way of Lotus because it has nothing to aim for.

I remember fields of 26 cars and in some case pre-qualifying. If McLaren was killed off, then in some respects it's like taking a knife to the whole sport.

Great idea, well thought out sir :rolleyes:

[markabilly]

Top idea. Kill McLaren.

Toyota were banned from the WRC over their turbochargers in their Celica GT4. Although they did come back after the ban, it set in motion a set of events which would within three years see Toyota quit the WRC after being there for 21 years.
Given that McLaren are already finding it difficult to find investors on top of their £100m fine, banning them for two years would most likely see the entity go the way of Lotus because it has nothing to aim for.

I remember fields of 26 cars and in some case pre-qualifying. If McLaren was killed off, then in some respects it's like taking a knife to the whole sport.

Great idea, well thought out sir :rolleyes: \

Or is it opening up the sport?

Things need a big change real fast, the fia protects the revenue of those deemed worthy, Ferrai and Mac dominant the sport for the last ten years, with Renault as something of an entity that stuck its nose into the mess as well as the competition, but that has been that.

If it is a true driver's championship designed and intended to be that, then the playing field should be levelled considerably.

This is all about trying to give Hamilton a championship, all in the interests of revenue of bernie

[markabilly]

But what has really changed?

Nothing, all swept under the carpet, so we can go on thinking that F1 is somehow meaningful when it comes to these matters

[ArrowsFA1]

Should the McLaren drivers have their points deducted?
No, simply because the FIA President offered them (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62106) an amnesty from punishment. You can argue whether that decision was right or wrong, but it was made.

No, simply because the FIA President offered them (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62106) an amnesty from punishment. You can argue whether that decision was right or wrong, but it was made.

Add to that the simple fact that it doesn't really make any difference.

[Valve Bounce]

One can interpret punishment as being banned for a number of races whereas deducting points is the outcome from their having taken unfair advantage over their opponents, as was revealed in McLaren's Statement.

It does make a difference because I'd feel a helluva lot better.

[ioan]

Alonso and Hamilton do not deserve to be ranked above Massa, Heidfeld, Kubica and other drivers who drove for teams that weren't cheating.

I hope that makes it clear for all the hypocrites who voted no but won't bother to tell why. :rolleyes:

PS @Arrows: Max offered them immunity against having their superlicence's revoked. Not against being stripped of their points.

[ArrowsFA1]

PS @Arrows: Max offered them immunity against having their superlicence's revoked. Not against being stripped of their points.
Max said:
"I can confirm, given the importance of this issue, that any information you may make available in response to this letter will not result in any proceedings against you under the International Sporting Code or the Formula One regulations. However, in the event that it later comes to light that you have withheld any potentially relevant information, serious consequences could follow."
I'm not sure he was ever specific as to what those "serious consequences" were.

[ioan]

How do you explain that Max proposed a 2 years ban on McLaren than?!

[markabilly]

How do you explain that Max proposed a 2 years ban on McLaren than?!
Because immunity only applied to the drivers not the team, yes, if the team was banned, they could not drive for the team, but if they could find another drive, they would be free to go

The implication being that the drivers were not to be individually penalized

[Rollo]

How do you ban drivers for something which isn't their fault? A thread this year came to the conclusion that the drivers have no bearing on car development - therefore to penalise drivers for something outside the realms of their control is stupid.

[Valve Bounce]

How do you ban drivers for something which isn't their fault? A thread this year came to the conclusion that the drivers have no bearing on car development - therefore to penalise drivers for something outside the realms of their control is stupid.

Just for argument sake: supposing if the engines were measured and found to be 200CC over regs, completely unknown to the drivers, would you consider penalising the drivers or let them keep their points?


Rollo, I think you'd be better off concentrating on those Cosworth March cars I asked you about. :p :

[ioan]

How do you ban drivers for something which isn't their fault? A thread this year came to the conclusion that the drivers have no bearing on car development - therefore to penalise drivers for something outside the realms of their control is stupid.

Than you agree with Montezemolo that from now on teams should cheat as much as possible because when caught the drivers do keep their points and can win the WDC?!

Nice to see what people around here think about fair play! :down:

[Rollo]

Banning the drivers means taking away their licences. You do realise that don't you? You both believe in punishing someone for something beyond their control.

Effectively you've both called for both Alonso and Hamilton to be restricted from driving for any F1 team for both 2008 & 2009. Of to clarify this:

Do you think Alonso should be allowed to drive for Renault next year?

[Valve Bounce]

Banning the drivers means taking away their licences. You do realise that don't you? You both believe in punishing someone for something beyond their control.

Effectively you've both called for both Alonso and Hamilton to be restricted from driving for any F1 team for both 2008 & 2009. Of to clarify this:

Do you think Alonso should be allowed to drive for Renault next year?

"Just for argument sake: supposing if the engines were measured and found to be 200CC over regs, completely unknown to the drivers, would you consider penalising the drivers or let them keep their points?"

This is what I asked you, Rollo. This thread is about deducting their points earned for year 2007. Where or when did I mention 2008 and 2009?


Perhaps you'd like to address the question I asked?

[Rollo]

I know it's what you asked me, and you quoted this:

How do you ban drivers for something which isn't their fault? A thread this year came to the conclusion that the drivers have no bearing on car development - therefore to penalise drivers for something outside the realms of their control is stupid.

If your car is found to be defective, you get an order to have it replaced or remedied, the authorities do not give you a driving ban because of it. Likewise, if an F1 car was found to have been breaking the rules, you can take away the points that the car gained but to revoke the drivers' licences is a misdirection of justice.

The general rule of law is that where a penalty is applied, you punish the people responsible. Therefore in answer to your question, I reiterate my initial statement. To revoke the licences of the drivers for something outside the realms of their control is stupid.

My comment directly followed this:

Because immunity only applied to the drivers not the team, yes, if the team was banned, they could not drive for the team, but if they could find another drive, they would be free to go

Markabilly is of course correct, on grounds of what's just.

[Valve Bounce]

I know it's what you asked me, and you quoted this:


If your car is found to be defective, you get an order to have it replaced or remedied, the authorities do not give you a driving ban because of it. Likewise, if an F1 car was found to have been breaking the rules, you can take away the points that the car gained but to revoke the drivers' licences is a misdirection of justice.

The general rule of law is that where a penalty is applied, you punish the people responsible. Therefore in answer to your question, I reiterate my initial statement. To revoke the licences of the drivers for something outside the realms of their control is stupid.

.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the question I asked you. Quite simply, if the scrutineers discovered after a race that a driver's car did not measure, through no fault of that driver, would you deduct the drivers points from that race?

PLease don't dodge the question with some lame brain diversion. Thanks!!

I am not talking about revoking any licences - I am talking about deducting the drivers' points for year 2007 because their car had bennifited from plans stolen from Ferrari.

[Garry Walker]

This has absolutely nothing to do with the question I asked you. Quite simply, if the scrutineers discovered after a race that a driver's car did not measure, through no fault of that driver, would you deduct the drivers points from that race?

PLease don't dodge the question with some lame brain diversion. Thanks!!

I am not talking about revoking any licences - I am talking about deducting the drivers' points for year 2007 because their car had bennifited from plans stolen from Ferrari.

Good post, but I wouldnt expect a coherent reply from Rollo unfortunately.

[samuratt]

I voted no, simply because the seasson is over and won't make any differenc in the final outcome: Ferrari and Kimi won.

On the other hand, I do think that McLaren should be out of racing in 2008 after their last statement. They cheated the sport, the fans and what is worst, their own supporters. Such a bunch of liars should not be allowed to race.

[Valve Bounce]

I voted no, simply because the seasson is over and won't make any differenc in the final outcome: Ferrari and Kimi won.

On the other hand, I do think that McLaren should be out of racing in 2008 after their last statement. They cheated the sport, the fans and what is worst, their own supporters. Such a bunch of liars should not be allowed to race.


Sorry Rattman, but you will have to start another thread - this one concerns year 2007 only.

[markabilly]

Sorry Rattman, but you will have to start another thread - this one concerns year 2007 only.
Well that was my point, the real question should be for 2008, and given the latest in cheating from mac, knowing their car would be inspected, etc and so forth, why should the drivers get the benefit of the cheating in 2008--as well as the team??

2007 is over, MaX promised immunity, and that was the reason for not taking points, as maX himself said. This is otherwise pure speculation, because no changes will ever happen to the results of 2007

What max should have said is this, "any driver who does not cooperate gets banned for future races", but he chooses not to do that, writing the offer much more broadly, for the obvious reason of keeping hamilton is the chase to protect revenue.

My opinion is that let them keep points was total nonsense.....but not if you want the money

:rolleyes:

[markabilly]

Alonso and Hamilton do not deserve to be ranked above Massa, Heidfeld, Kubica and other drivers who drove for teams that weren't cheating.

I hope that makes it clear for all the hypocrites who voted no but won't bother to tell why. :rolleyes:

PS @Arrows: Max offered them immunity against having their superlicence's revoked. Not against being stripped of their points.
That is what he should have said, but read the letter, itis subject to be intrepeted more broad

[ioan]

That is what he should have said, but read the letter, itis subject to be intrepeted more broad

Your right, it was intentionally done that way.

[markabilly]

Your right, it was intentionally done that way.
But you are right, the letter is not actually a good, plausible reason not to strip points if you are making the decision based on merit and fair play, but it did provide the excuse to protect revenue......

And who gave MaX the authority to sua sponta issue this immunity? Where did the FIA vote? Where did the Council vote?

What if MaX instead says, you issue a letter of semi-apology for being a liar and a cheat, and no matter how illegal your car is, that will not be point for further discussion........let us just cancel this hearing.....

Not sure that it matters, as a simple review of the Renault transcript, shows a "body" of judges or whatever, that asks no questions when invited by the Grand Lord and Maxter, not even can I go to the bathroom....and with only 25 minutes of unrecorded "deliberation" for what would seem to be a matter involving fairly complex technical issues (to say nothing of the principles or rules to be applied) , it seems not to have mattered

[markabilly]

Inexcusable to have closed the other thread...no different than Max cancelling the Feb. hearing, just more sweeping under the carpet, all for revenue...

[pino]

Inexcusable to have closed the other thread...no different than Max cancelling the Feb. hearing, just more sweeping under the carpet, all for revenue...

Go and read last page of that thread and you might understand why it was closed...

[ioan]

Back to topic, 60% of the people around here think that having an unfair advantage is OK! :down:

[SGWilko]

Back to topic, 60% of the people around here think that having an unfair advantage is OK! :down:

43.7% of all statistics are made up.......!! :p :

[jso1985]

Back to topic, 60% of the people around here think that having an unfair advantage is OK! :down:

or maybe they think there's no need for more punishment as it won't change anyhting

[samuratt]

or maybe they think there's no need for more punishment as it won't change anyhting

I am all in for some punishment, but taking the points from 2007, while McLaren are still gaining advantadge from Ferrari's blueprints in their 2008 design seems stupid to me. They do deserve to be out of racing in 2008. And Ron should be fined for being such a liar. So all he said about Fernando maybe a lie too. He has descredited the sport once again. What a shame.

Sorry Valveman for using your thread to explain my point! but I think it fits perfect with the content ;)

[Valve Bounce]

I am against any punishment in year 2008 provided the FIA can check the McLaren's plans and design carefully with the help of Ferrari to ensure the car does not have any leftover design principles from Ferrari.

The last thing we want is to see one of the competitive teams removed from the competition next year.

[jso1985]

and we don't have any proof McLaren has used Ferrari IP on their 2008 car. we're just speculating

[Valve Bounce]

and we don't have any proof McLaren has used Ferrari IP on their 2008 car. we're just speculating

Agreed

[markabilly]

I am against any punishment in year 2008 provided the FIA can check the McLaren's plans and design carefully with the help of Ferrari to ensure the car does not have any leftover design principles from Ferrari.

The last thing we want is to see one of the competitive teams removed from the competition next year.

........no matter how much they cheated...... :D



And bernie would agree.....

[wmcot]

and we don't have any proof McLaren has used Ferrari IP on their 2008 car. we're just speculating

But is the FIA still monitoring to make sure that McLaren are not using Ferrari data, or have they just been told to turn a blind eye since it might affect the money flowing into the sport?

[samuratt]

I think that the FIA's decision to look more carefully at Mclarens 2008 desing is more than a speculation.

But if there are no facts to prove this, then they should not be punished.

It doesn't matter if McLaren is the only other team to match Ferrari's pace in 2008. If they cheat again they should be out from F1. This year they decided not to punish drivers in order to have a championship.

[Tazio]

I say let's put this thing to sleep!
By the end of last season McLaren had gone masochistic.
Let's not start this one by being sadistic.
Let's just hope they learned their lesson!

[Valve Bounce]

Don't you like S&M?? :p :

[PSfan]

I say let's put this thing to sleep!
By the end of last season McLaren had gone masochistic.
Let's not start this one by being sadistic.
Let's just hope they learned their lesson!

NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!!!!!

this is the off season? why rush things if we don't have to?!?!?

Ferrari out of "respect" accepted the Fia's decision to not hold a hearing in febuary? WHY?!?! they are still holding a civil case against McLeran... Little demon inside my head tells me (That and 10 molson canadians) that come race day, ferrari will already know that McLaran is using more secrets then the FIA know... gonna raise hell come new season... we'll be worse off then last...

Put this to sleep?!? I would rather a Ferrari cake walk in 08 theb another bs 07... lets make sure everything is cleared b4 going forward... 2 years if that kinda BS could really kill f1...



Following message was brought to you by molson Canadian... :)

[Dzeidzei]

Ferrari out of "respect" accepted the Fia's decision to not hold a hearing in febuary? WHY?!?! they are still holding a civil case against McLeran... Little demon inside my head tells me (That and 10 molson canadians) that come race day, ferrari will already know that McLaran is using more secrets then the FIA know... gonna raise hell come new season... we'll be worse off then last...



As an answer to the topic question: no. And as FIA did not punish the drivers in 07, its unlikely it´ll happen in 08.

What I would like to see is an apology by RD. The official statement is not good enough, RD still insists he´s done nothing wrong. I stated on this forum ages ago, that the guy should apologise, because theres no chance in hell he didnt know what was going on. (of course back then I got attacked by McL fans who knew better)

An apology might save and regain some of his reputation, but he won´t do it. Sometimes being too proud is just stupid.

[Tazio]

NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!!!!!

this is the off season? why rush things if we don't have to?!?!?

Ferrari out of "respect" accepted the Fia's decision to not hold a hearing in febuary? WHY?!?! they are still holding a civil case against McLeran... Little demon inside my head tells me (That and 10 molson canadians) that come race day, ferrari will already know that McLaran is using more secrets then the FIA know... gonna raise hell come new season... we'll be worse off then last...

Put this to sleep?!? I would rather a Ferrari cake walk in 08 theb another bs 07... lets make sure everything is cleared b4 going forward... 2 years if that kinda BS could really kill f1...



Following message was brought to you by molson Canadian... :)

You make some very good points for one who drinks.. :)

Why does the best beer in the U.S. come from Mexico, and Canada???

[Valve Bounce]

Why does the best beer in the U.S. come from Mexico, and Canada???


Because the Aussis won't let them have our VB. :p :

[Tazio]

Because the Aussis won't let them have our VB. :p :
Actually what I meant to say is;
Of all the mass produced beer in North America,
Why does the best come from Mexico, and Canada?

[Valve Bounce]

Actually what I meant to say is;
Of all the mass produced beer in North America,
Why does the best come from Mexico, and Canada?

Because the whole of North America is trying to drink Canada Dry???? :confused:

[Tazio]

Because the whole of North America is trying to drink Canada Dry???? :confused:
Ok professor.
Come up with one for the Three Amigos. Corona, Dos XX, and Modelo (including his evil twin Modelo Negro)

[Valve Bounce]

Ok professor.
Come up with one for the Three Amigos. Corona, Dos XX, and Modelo (including his evil twin Modelo Negro)


Well, they could help to drink Canada dry too. :p :