McLaren Statement

[ArrowsFA1]

As a result of the investigations carried out by the Federation Internationale de l'Automobile it has become clear that Ferrari information was more widely disseminated within McLaren than was previously communicated. McLaren greatly regrets that its own investigations did not identify this material and has written to the World Motor Sport Council to apologise for this.

McLaren has written a letter to the FIA which in the interests of transparency it is publishing with this press statement. That letter speaks for itself and the sentiments expressed in it are sincerely held by McLaren. McLaren has also written to the World Motor Sport Council to apologise that it has taken an FIA investigation to find this information and have expressed our deep regret that our understanding of the facts was improved as a result of the FIA inspection rather than our own investigations. McLaren has recognised that this entire situation could have been avoided if we had informed Ferrari and the FIA about Nigel Stepney's first communication when it came to our attention. We are, of course, embarrassed by the successive disclosures and have apologised unreservedly to the FIA World Motor Sport Council.

To avoid even the possibility of Ferrari information influencing our performance during 2008, McLaren has offered a set of detailed undertakings to the FIA which will impose a moratorium on development in relation to three separate systems. During the course of these incidents, McLaren has conducted a thorough review of its policies and procedures regarding the recruitment and management of staff. The proposals arising from this thorough review have been disclosed to the FIA and McLaren has agreed to demonstrate that all of these policies and procedures have been fully implemented.

McLaren wish to make a public apology to the FIA, Ferrari, the Formula 1 community and to Formula 1 fans throughout the world and offer their assurance that changes are now being made which will ensure that nothing comparable to what has taken place will ever happen again. McLaren have also agreed to pay the costs incurred by the FIA for their investigation.

McLaren now wishes to put these matters behind it and to move forward focusing on the 2008 season.

http://www.mclaren.com/latestnews/press-releases-2007.php?article=60

http://www.mclaren.com/latestnews/press-releases-2007.php?article=60

Throw them out now.

[F1boat]

Lovely :)

[ioan]

Someone still believes that they were not guilty?

I wonder how Brundle, Stewrt and Hill after accusing the FIA of witch hunting the poor innocent McLaren team and their leader?!

[ioan]

Lovely :)

And sweet :D

One sponsor has had enough........

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64365

[ioan]

I wouldn't want to be in RD's place!

[ArrowsFA1]

McLaren's letter to the FIA (http://www.mclaren.com/latestnews/pdf/Max-Mosley-and-WMSC-members.pdf)

[ioan]

How can they call that letter "Private and Confidential" and than post it on their site?!

[ArrowsFA1]

McLaren's letter to the FIA (http://www.mclaren.com/latestnews/pdf/Max-Mosley-and-WMSC-members.pdf)
...is now on Autosport.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64370) not McLaren.com

[SGWilko]

Someone still believes that they were not guilty?

Not any more. I am gobsmacked, but most of all dissapointed.

Sticking up for McLaren in numerous posts has left me with egg on my face. I am genuinely embarrased, and am happy to admit I have been proved wrong.

What a groveling load of drivel that letter amounts to. Oh well, come on Nico, lets see Williams near the sharp end again.

Apologies to anyone who felt they were banging their heads against a brick wall with any of my sticking up for Ron posts, I feel quite sheepish now.

Ho hum, soon be Christmas.......

[SGWilko]

How can they call that letter "Private and Confidential" and than post it on their site?!

The mind boggles. Daer oh dear, this puts JT and LDM in a different light now, doesn't it?

God Lewis, get out quick son.

As Spike Milligan said 'the boy stood on the burning deck.......

......twit' ;)

[ioan]

Not any more. I am gobsmacked, but most of all dissapointed.

Sticking up for McLaren in numerous posts has left me with egg on my face. I am genuinely embarrased, and am happy to admit I have been proved wrong.

What a groveling load of drivel that letter amounts to. Oh well, come on Nico, lets see Williams near the sharp end again.

Apologies to anyone who felt they were banging their heads against a brick wall with any of my sticking up for Ron posts, I feel quite sheepish now.

Ho hum, soon be Christmas.......

One real man on the list! :up:

[Easy Drifter]

It does appear that ioan was right and McLaren did make use of Ferrari info. My apologies.

[ClarkFan]

I wouldn't want to be in RD's place!

I wouldn't want to be in Hamilton's. Promising young driver, nearly WDC as a rookie, and now he is tied to this anchor.

Bet that Alonso wakes up every moring laughing deliriously.

ClarkFan

[Storm]

So any more of Alonso being the snitch posts around ?

[ioan]

I wouldn't want to be in Hamilton's. Promising young driver, nearly WDC as a rookie, and now he is tied to this anchor.

Bet that Alonso wakes up every moring laughing deliriously.

ClarkFan

I was thinking about the same thing earlier. Still Ron is the one who's integrity went with this occasion.

[airshifter]

I really don't see what this brings to the surface that wasn't already known.

We knew that some information was circulated through several people back when they released the reports on the investigation.

I do wonder what is blacked out in the letter. It may be something similar to what Ferrari uses yet not close enough that the FIA may stil allow it. Just a guess of course.

[ioan]

I really don't see what this brings to the surface that wasn't already known.

We knew that some information was circulated through several people back when they released the reports on the investigation.

I do wonder what is blacked out in the letter. It may be something similar to what Ferrari uses yet not close enough that the FIA may stil allow it. Just a guess of course.

The difference is that they final acknowledge what Max was saying about the team.
That they were using the illegally obtained Ferrari data even if they were denying it.

Not easy to digest, is it?!

[Firstgear]

Can anyone here expand on the "quickshift, fast fill" that is refered to in the letter?

[ioan]

Can anyone here expand on the "quickshift, fast fill" that is refered to in the letter?

I guess not, unless someone here works for Ferrari or McLaren, or if Stepney or Coughlan visit this forum.

We might however guess it's some high end technology that mcLaren didn't discover before the moment Stepney decided to help them.

[Bagwan]

Roger that , Wilco , good job , over .
You too , Drifter .

Gotta say there's a few "don't agree with the FIA's conclusion"s in that statement , and a few too many "we've already been punished too much"s , for it to be a total "hands up" apology .
It certainly must mean that they are dead to rights guilty .
There is red in that car , and there are red parts ready for the '08 by the sound of it , with them declaring developement moratoria .

It wasn't beyond the imagination to think they might come up with a part or 2 that looked a little fishy and could be reddish upon final inspection , but this was red on the drawing board .

This was Whitmarsh speaking for the team .

Get a mic in front of Ron .

[ClarkFan]

I really don't see what this brings to the surface that wasn't already known.

We knew that some information was circulated through several people back when they released the reports on the investigation.

I do wonder what is blacked out in the letter. It may be something similar to what Ferrari uses yet not close enough that the FIA may stil allow it. Just a guess of course.

In terms of new information on McLaren use/access to Ferrari data, not much is new. McLaren is mainly acknowledging the WMSC findings.

The new piece is the promise to freeze development in three different areas. Tire gas may not mean much, but it looks like McLaren's transmission development (quickshift) may be frozen and that they can't experiment with ways to fill the car faster at pit stops. Those items could hamper McLaren car development in 2008.

ClarkFan

[I am evil Homer]

Can some explain how a car can fast fill when the refuellers are all the same?

[Bagwan]

From Speed web site :
“In the light of McLaren's public apology and undertakings, the FIA President has asked the members of the World Motor Sport Council for their consent to cancel the hearing scheduled for 14 February 2008 and, in the interests of the sport, to consider this matter closed.”

How do we feel about Max now ?

[I am evil Homer]

He still needs to stop slating people with personal insults whatever his actions

[markabilly]

From Speed web site :
“In the light of McLaren's public apology and undertakings, the FIA President has asked the members of the World Motor Sport Council for their consent to cancel the hearing scheduled for 14 February 2008 and, in the interests of the sport, to consider this matter closed.”

How do we feel about Max now ?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64373

Changes nothing, but it does make the threats about the warning of severe repercussions if ferrari data was used on the 2008 car, to be meaningless....and the statement is not surprizing, since to have implemented those promises, would have put a major dent in revenue and Hamster's shot at producing even more revenue by taking or at least coming close to taking, the WDC, if the promise of real disqulaification is carried out, and that is what it is all about.


No different than Max's letter promising immunity for drivers to keep generating interest and revenue for bernie...

Money.

A deal worked out behind the scenes. Mac admits to being an even bigger thief and liar than previously thought, and Max says ok, you have immunity, case closed. Now go generate some cash for all of us.

Read the Prince, when I heard the news, my first thought was that pulls the plug on Mac for this year, but then I thought, what about this revenue for 2008 year? What happens to revenue....then pop out comes this post.

Backroom deals and the Prince is still alive and well.

Only those who drink the kool aid will not see this whole thing for what a hypocritical joke it really is........where's Ioan???

:beer:

[OTA]

Hmmm, integrity, integrity Mr Dennis. Oh you were not able to find the level of "intoxication" yourself.
And you want us to beleive so. You just found out the trouble when FA "blackmailed" you in Hungary. Give me a bloody brake.

Popular beleive is very wise and as I have said here a few times, there is an Spanish say that goes like this, "tell me what you brag about and I'll tell you what you lack"

Cheers
David

[Garry Walker]

This is pretty damning. I reckon McLaren should be excluded from 2008.

[Bagwan]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64373

Changes nothing, but it does make the threats about the warning of severe repercussions if ferrari data was used on the 2008 car, to be meaningless....and the statement is not surprizing, since to have implemented those promises, would have put a major dent in revenue and Hamster's shot at producing even more revenue by taking or at least coming close to taking, the WDC, if the promise of real disqulaification is carried out, and that is what it is all about.


No different than Max's letter promising immunity for drivers to keep generating interest and revenue for bernie...

Money.

A deal worked out behind the scenes. Mac admits to being an even bigger thief and liar than previously thought, and Max says ok, you have immunity, case closed. Now go generate some cash for all of us.

Read the Prince, when I heard the news, my first thought was that pulls the plug on Mac for this year, but then I thought, what about this revenue for 2008 year? What happens to revenue....then pop out comes this post.

Backroom deals and the Prince is still alive and well.

Only those who drink the kool aid will not see this whole thing for what a hypocritical joke it really is........where's Ioan???

:beer:

Whaddaya mean , changes nothing ?
It puts Max back in charge . That's what it does .

Expect Ron to quietly lick his wounds in the background , with perhaps an "all that needs be said was in the official statement" .

The kids have been bad and will have to stay after school , writing "I will not lie to the FIA" one hundred million times on the blackboard .

Little Martin is worried about being called to the office , and his pals Jackie and Damon will be worrying about whether they will be "pressed"for their opinions as well , given the news .


Sure , you can look at it through Markabillean eyes , and see the seedy side of it , but maybe we can also see a return to a more gentlemanly sport , given that all involved can witness the outrage to such a degree that there are articles popping up about the impending loss of sponsorship .
This is the human side poking at Machiavelli , who can only react with webspin trying to keep up .
It is the public voting with Johnny paycheque .

[rabf1]

"A deal worked out behind the scenes. Mac admits to being an even bigger thief and liar than previously thought, and Max says ok, you have immunity, case closed. Now go generate some cash for all of us."

Sounds exactly right to me. Case closed.

[Garry Walker]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64374

[SGWilko]

You'd assume that 'quick fill' relates to fuel flow, but I always thought it was 12l/s, as set by intertechnique. And trying to modify such resulted in Joss's fireball in '94.

Quick shift is clearly in relation to seamless shift I guess. Now, we know that the disastrous MP-19 I think - used a two clutch system, which is now not within the rules. Is it possible McLaren had not been using a seemless shift system, or just improving on theirs using Ferrari knowledge.

There is an article on Autosport now that talks about the '08 McLaren having a longer wheelbase, CO2 in the tyres and a Ferrari influenced brake balance system.

Given all this, Luca and Jean had every right to be livid after the first hearing.

Until the letter released today, I was still giving Ron the benefit of the doubt, for all we know he may NOT have known what was occuring, but the goodwill is gone now.

All I hope for is that there is as good racing next year as this, the new blood in F1 has now got a few seasons' exerience, what say Heikki, Kimi, Fillipe, Nico, Robert, Nick all have decent cars next year, all nicely evenly matched, no politics or BS, just pure racing, real F1 porn!!!

[gloomyDAY]

Time to put this matter behind in three easy steps:

1) McLaren are cheaters.
2) A deal has been reached between McLaren and the FIA.
3) Close the case and wait for Australia.

[airshifter]

The difference is that they final acknowledge what Max was saying about the team.
That they were using the illegally obtained Ferrari data even if they were denying it.

Not easy to digest, is it?!


Why is this hard to digest?

Some parts of the investigation prove that they used the data, and some parts prove that they didn't use data that many here have stated they used. Anyone that followed either the belief that they are complete cheaters or anyone that felt they had complete innocence was wrong.

A lot of people just wanted a complete enough investigation to determine exactly what was influenced, and to what extent.



Personally I now fear that the approval process of the 2008 Mclaren may allow some aspects acquired from Ferrari to be used. The only other way is to exclude them from using anything even remotely suspect, which is enough to keep just about any car from competing.

For someone such as myself without bias in either direction, it's a no win situation. Probably the best thing that could happen in my opinion would be for Mclaren to exclude themselves from the 2008 season and put an end to any doubts before they are voiced.





On another note but mentioned many times in all of these threads, but does anyone really think the tire gas in question is just C02? Even the young boy racers know about common gasses for tire fills, this is F1!

[Hawkmoon]

I wonder if the threat of exclusion from 2008 was real enough, or at least McLaren believed it was, to make them issue such a statement?

If McLaren felt that commercial realities would prevent them from being excluded I doubt they would have written that letter.

[ioan]

Have to give it to Max he's pulling the curtains on this affair in an elegant way! There's a good reason why he is at the top! :D

[CNR]

http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=73543



McLaren has proposed to freeze development of certain aspects of its 2008 car, after acknowledging that Ferrari secrets penetrated more deeply into the British team than was previously thought.
With the FIA still to rule on the legality of the MP4-23 following the 'Stepneygate' scandal, a McLaren statement on Thursday revealed that the governing body's recent investigation did indeed uncover that "Ferrari information was more widely disseminated ... than was previously communicated".

[wmcot]

But now the letter from McLaren offering an apology casts more doubt on the case. Is the apology real, or is it just an attempt to stop the investigations which might turn up even more problems for McLaren? We may not have seen the bottom of McLaren's pit yet!

[mstillhere]

Ready?

I TOLD YOU SO!!

WOW! It feels good.

[mstillhere]

I love it when they say:

"Changes are now being made which will ensure that nothing comparable to what has taken place will ever happen again."

Changes are going to be made NOW?? Bunch of cheaters!!! They were going to use Ferrari ideas in their new car anyway if it would have been for the FIA checking their "new" car. They got caught. And rather then being disqualified for a year only NOW they issue the apology and only NOW they are going to stop develloping some ideas that REALLY are not result of their work. What a bunch of free loaders. I really did not think they were going to have the NERVE to use Ferrari parts for their new car despite the FIA warning. I would ban them now, just for their deep embedded dishonesty. Wow, this is soooooo low.

[PSfan]

If I was Renault, and had nothing further to hide, I would be pissed at the notion that McLeran can simply admit it and then have the matter considered closed.

The only alternative to expulsion from the 08 season would be maybe to force them to use their 07 chassis.

[Valve Bounce]

Have to give it to Max he's pulling the curtains on this affair in an elegant way! There's a good reason why he is at the top! :D

This does lead me to think that Dave Richards and Prodrive might be luckier than they thought.

I must say that I was uncomfortable when you called Ron Dennis a cheat and a liar, but I guess your anger has been vindicated by this latest admission.

While I cannot wish F1 to lose another team, especially one that is competitive, I must admit that I am now uncomfortable with McLaren being competitive next year on the back of whatever information they may have gleaned from Ferrari that we don't know about still.

Having said all this, I am now even more delighted that Kimi has won the WDC.

I hope the above sets out clearly how I feel. Not bloody good, I can tell you. :( Except for Kimi winning and Ferrari also.

I must say that I am happy to be a Super Aguri follower and a fan of ant.

[wmcot]

If I was Renault, and had nothing further to hide, I would be pissed at the notion that McLeran can simply admit it and then have the matter considered closed.

The only alternative to expulsion from the 08 season would be maybe to force them to use their 07 chassis.

...or the '06 chassis - Better yet, make them use the MP4-18 (the one that never raced!) There is definitely no Ferrari influence on that one! :)

[mstillhere]

"A deal worked out behind the scenes. Mac admits to being an even bigger thief and liar than previously thought, and Max says ok, you have immunity, case closed. Now go generate some cash for all of us."

Sounds exactly right to me. Case closed.

According to Ferrari its true that for the FIA case is closed but from the legal aspect it is not. In fact the Ferrari law suit against McLaren is continuing and this latest guilt admission is definetly not going to help the McLaren defense team. DOOMS DAY IS APPROACHING. Ah,Ah,Ah,Ah,Ah,Ah,Ah,Ah,Ah,Ah.....

[Valve Bounce]

I am still trying to come to grips with this latest realisation of McLarens underhand tactics.

I would have to ask why their driver's wins, placings and points are not erased from the results,
at which point in time McLaren became aware of the situation,
and the bloody gall of these *******s appealing against Williams and BMW's fuel temperatures in their last race.

The mind boggles how arrogant they were in their dealings in the 2007 season.

[ioan]

I must say that I was uncomfortable when you called Ron Dennis a cheat and a liar, but I guess your anger has been vindicated by this latest admission.

People were calling Ferrari and MS cheaters for more than a decade with no proof.
I only called McLaren and RD cheaters when there was a reason to it.
It's only a matter of principles.

Being made fun of because I didn't share the opinion of the majority about McLaren and Max and the FIA was just what I was expecting around here.
And after all these, I feel good about being right.

As for next seasons championship, at least 9 teams should feel bad that McLaren will be competitive because of an unfair advantage.
I wonder if anyone will complain.

[ioan]

I am still trying to come to grips with this latest realisation of McLarens underhand tactics.

I would have to ask why their driver's wins, placings and points are not erased from the results,
at which point in time McLaren became aware of the situation,
and the bloody gall of these *******s appealing against Williams and BMW's fuel temperatures in their last race.

The mind boggles how arrogant they were in their dealings in the 2007 season.

The most mind boggling aspect for me was how people were blinded by their hate towards the FIA and Ferrari while completely missing McLaren's wrong doings.

I also ask myself what Mercedes top managers are feeling about their name being associated with McLaren at this moment.

One of the teams Spanish sponsors decided to pull out today, they even mentioned that it isn't because of Alonso. I believe them,having your name associated to liars and cheaters it's not worth to pay for.

[markabilly]

Have to give it to Max he's pulling the curtains on this affair in an elegant way! There's a good reason why he is at the top! :D


Made that point before much to the distaste of many...when it comes to understanding and applying those principles of the Prince, he is a work of art to be studied carefully....say all you want about his lack of ethics (the usual concept of "ethics" is only a matter of convience to be twisted and used for public consumption, the veil used to hide behind hypocrisy in the Prince), and all the other stuff said on this forum, almost all true no doubt, but when it comes to the use of power and political manuvering, old "machiavellie" has to say AMEN!!

Me, I must say opps, what a fool I be, as I should have seen it coming, but when I first saw the confession, I thought, well there goes mac down the toilet per max's promised threat, but then what about 2008 and all the revenue, etc....but before I could think more, there was the post about Max wanting to fold up the tent, based on Mac's promise (oh yeah--"PROMISE") to sin no more.

Brilliant.

Of course given all that has gone on this year with the Team Intergrity, one cynic might be inclined to say "promise?" ?? from Who? And just how credible is this person? Does he keep his word or is he a proven liar? Was it only once so proved? Or has it been many times over proven to be a liar?

And Max's promise of sanctions if stuff be found? Again truth is only a matter of convience--same as the letter of immunity, subject to change at the whim of what is good for the sport.


Whaddaya mean , changes nothing ?
It puts Max back in charge . That's what it does .

Expect Ron to quietly lick his wounds in the background , with perhaps an "all that needs be said was in the official statement" .

The kids have been bad and will have to stay after school , writing "I will not lie to the FIA" one hundred million times on the blackboard .

Little Martin is worried about being called to the office , and his pals Jackie and Damon will be worrying about whether they will be "pressed"for their opinions as well , given the news .


Sure , you can look at it through Markabillean eyes , and see the seedy side of it , but maybe we can also see a return to a more gentlemanly sport , given that all involved can witness the outrage to such a degree that there are articles popping up about the impending loss of sponsorship .
This is the human side poking at Machiavelli , who can only react with webspin trying to keep up .
It is the public voting with Johnny paycheque .

Excuse me, but my seedy eyes only see greed at work, not justice, and such does not mean anything except that where justified by greed, it is okay to turn one's eyes to look somewhere else or just pretend something does not exist........

There will be no return to the gentlemenly sport as long as such little and highly unethical people like bernie, max, flavio and RD are involved, and their little 2007 fight over the mountains of cash was just enough of a gap through the veil of hypocrisy to see that the intestines of the sport are really ugly and composed of a greedy need for cash that overides truth, fair play, justice, sportsmanship and all the other things good people hold so high. :vader:

[Bagwan]

According to Ferrari its true that for the FIA case is closed but from the legal aspect it is not. In fact the Ferrari law suit against McLaren is continuing and this latest guilt admission is definetly not going to help the McLaren defense team. DOOMS DAY IS APPROACHING. Ah,Ah,Ah,Ah,Ah,Ah,Ah,Ah,Ah,Ah.....

Stepney described as a "mole" does sound kinda bad .

[ioan]

Stepney described as a "mole" does sound kinda bad .

He might have to spend sometime in a cold place.

[Bagwan]

Excuse me, but my seedy eyes only see greed at work, not justice, and such does not mean anything except that where justified by greed, it is okay to turn one's eyes to look somewhere else or just pretend something does not exist........

There will be no return to the gentlemenly sport as long as such little and highly unethical people like bernie, max, flavio and RD are involved, and their little 2007 fight over the mountains of cash was just enough of a gap through the veil of hypocrisy to see that the intestines of the sport are really ugly and composed of a greedy need for cash that overides truth, fair play, justice, sportsmanship and all the other things good people hold so high. :vader:

Certainly , I shall excuse your seedy eyes .
We see here how it is with every addiction , where the junkie sees recovery only once he has seen the lowest depths of himself .
That greed pushed these men to do silly things , risking what you see now .

All along this stupid road we have heard gasping , as more and more facts came out .
This is the final gasp , and where it all turns black and white .

The money junkie that is F1 just realized it could LOSE money .

And that , my Markabillean friend , is why being "scared straight" comes in .


Sure , that means the money stream is protected , but it shows they need to sit up straight and be gentlemen .
They all need to regain our trust .

Max and the FIA are now vindicated to some degree , and now it's the turn of the teams to toe the line .

The next guy gets flayed .

[grantb4]

This has nothing to do with guilt or not, but what I don't understand is why driver activated brake balance and tyre gas experimentation is news to anyone even remotely involved in racing.

Even in my own humble karting background on the frozen tundra there were competitors experimenting with "exotic" gases. And certainly Bridgestone and Michelin have experimented with everything under the sun.

And as far a brake balance goes, we can see drivers from any number of racing series adjusting brake balance using anything from manual to electronic systems on TV!

What the heck have McLaren being doing all these years if this stuff is such a revelation? Or should I have started an F1 team all along?

[Valve Bounce]

This has nothing to do with guilt or not, but what I don't understand is why driver activated brake balance and tyre gas experimentation is news to anyone even remotely involved in racing.

Even in my own humble karting background on the frozen tundra there were competitors experimenting with "exotic" gases. And certainly Bridgestone and Michelin have experimented with everything under the sun.

And as far a brake balance goes, we can see drivers from any number of racing series adjusting brake balance using anything from manual to electronic systems on TV!

What the heck have McLaren being doing all these years if this stuff is such a revelation? Or should I have started an F1 team all along?


Why not!! if you have access to a Ferrari mole, it sure as hell would help.

The FIA statement : http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64374 makes it very obvious that McLaren were not only using Ferrari technology this year but had every intention of using it for their new car next year.

And these illegitimate lowlives had the gall to appeal against BMW and Williams while they were still cheating and lying.

Hell would have to freeze over before I cheer for another McLaren driver, let alone their bloody cars.

[ioan]

Hell would have to freeze over before I cheer for another McLaren driver, let alone their bloody cars.

Bookmarked! ;)

[Valve Bounce]

Bookmarked! ;)

No need - you have my word on it!!

[markabilly]

This does lead me to think that Dave Richards and Prodrive might be luckier than they thought.

I must say that I was uncomfortable when you called Ron Dennis a cheat and a liar, but I guess your anger has been vindicated by this latest admission.

While I cannot wish F1 to lose another team, especially one that is competitive, I must admit that I am now uncomfortable with McLaren being competitive next year on the back of whatever information they may have gleaned from Ferrari that we don't know about still.

Having said all this, I am now even more delighted that Kimi has won the WDC.

I hope the above sets out clearly how I feel. Not bloody good, I can tell you. :( Except for Kimi winning and Ferrari also.

I must say that I am happy to be a Super Aguri follower and a fan of ant.
Go Antie go, go antie go

[markabilly]

In any event, I still wonder, now more than ever, if the stuff from ferrari was such widespread within Mac as now admitted by Mac, and those two drivers (Freddie and Pedro) were busy sharing the ferrari info openly, was not Hamilton also in the know and just as involved??

After all, RD said the two drivers were treated equally at all times, a man whose word is above reproach

And Hamilton never confessed up when presented with the letter....Hummmm, please do not tell me that the one with true mac in his blood was not among the trusted, while the recycled Spanard, fresh from Renault, was within the inner circle.

Of course just my opinion and question.....

[GP-M3]

Someone still believes that they were not guilty?

I wonder how Brundle, Stewrt and Hill after accusing the FIA of witch hunting the poor innocent McLaren team and their leader?!

LOL Exactly what I was thinking! :)

[GP-M3]

Not any more. I am gobsmacked, but most of all dissapointed.

Sticking up for McLaren in numerous posts has left me with egg on my face. I am genuinely embarrased, and am happy to admit I have been proved wrong.



Cool... I've been writing the the dude over at GrandPrix.com for a couple of months now asking him to come clean on his cheerleading for the Mac... let's see if he has the courtesy you have shown.

[Hondo]

In all honesty, just as Alonso was told to toe the party line or be sued when he left McLaren, I'm not sure that McLaren's letter is anything more than a direct transcript of what they were told to write if they planned on competing in the 2008 season. "write it this way or your hearing won't go so well"

[Valve Bounce]

In all honesty, just as Alonso was told to toe the party line or be sued when he left McLaren, I'm not sure that McLaren's letter is anything more than a direct transcript of what they were told to write if they planned on competing in the 2008 season. "write it this way or your hearing won't go so well"


Good point!! this way Bernie can still maximise his earnings next year without losing one of his top contenders.

I have become very cynical today, to the point where I am beginning whether it would be appropriate to propose some form of punishment for McLaren next year.

There are so many good drivers these days and to lose a team from F1, any team, is perhaps not the best outcome; but a points deduction or grid penalty for the first two races would not be unkind.

[Hawkmoon]

In all honesty, just as Alonso was told to toe the party line or be sued when he left McLaren, I'm not sure that McLaren's letter is anything more than a direct transcript of what they were told to write if they planned on competing in the 2008 season. "write it this way or your hearing won't go so well"

It's possible that what you say is correct. The only problem is that Ron Dennis is portrayed by both himself and others as being a man of impeccable integrity. Would a man of such character apologise for something he and his team didn't do?

Would he do this just to get Mosely to call off the hounds? If there was nothing on the MP4-23 to worry about then I seriously doubt that Dennis would do this. He would have waited until February when McLaren would have been cleared and then released an "I told you so" statement. Instead McLaren are apologising to all-and-sundry and offering to cease development on a number of systems. That smacks of a plea bargain to me.

[mstillhere]

In all honesty, just as Alonso was told to toe the party line or be sued when he left McLaren, I'm not sure that McLaren's letter is anything more than a direct transcript of what they were told to write if they planned on competing in the 2008 season. "write it this way or your hearing won't go so well"

What are you saying, that McLAren are the victim?

[Valve Bounce]

What are you saying, that McLAren are the victim?

Well Yeah!! of Stepney and Coughlan. :rolleyes:

I think they were told to apologise in no uncertain terms because they have been found out, but Bernie needs them on the grid next year, so do as Max says and you receive a get out of jail free card.

I am getting more cynical by the minute, I tell you. Next, they will consider canonising Benny Cousins if he promises to be good!!

[raikk]

wow... looks like im wrong lol.. ill remove my sig... I just want this whole thing to pass over .. Having said this I'll still cheer for Mclaren next year... they still are my team...

[CNR]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/sport/motorsport.html?in_article_id=502060&in_page_id=1954



The FIA report reveals evidence of a 'senior management figure' and a 'senior McLaren engineer' discussing Ferrari secrets on August 8, more than a month after the scandal was denied by Dennis.

[mstillhere]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/sport/motorsport.html?in_article_id=502060&in_page_id=1954

Wow, this article is dynamite. If RD were to lose his job, I would feel real bad for the guy BUT as for everyone in life you get to a point where you are better off the office and having a good time with your slippers on. The amount of repeated and highly consequential mistakes has been so great that I would not blame Mercedes if they were to replace him with someone else.

[Valve Bounce]

I'd take the Daily Mail headline with a grain of salt. There is nothing in the article that suggests Ron Dennis is fighting for his job - only the headline. These tabloids really like to create headlines to sell their papers. OK, so it's not News of the World, but common..................

[wmcot]

I'd take the Daily Mail headline with a grain of salt. There is nothing in the article that suggests Ron Dennis is fighting for his job - only the headline. These tabloids really like to create headlines to sell their papers. OK, so it's not News of the World, but common..................

Still, it's not beyond Max to make a deal with Ron to the effect that you resign before the next season and McLaren will race, stay and they will be banned. RD wants to make a bit of cash from his 15% stake in McLaren, so he would naturally want to see them on the grid (even if it is on his TV in some remote location.)

[AJP]

I am getting more cynical by the minute, I tell you. Next, they will consider canonising Benny Cousins if he promises to be good!!

this whole saga stinks so bad I'm unsure the foul stench emanating between Max Mosley and Ron Dennis will ever drift away.

Valve, I have become the most cynical ******* in the world now... :)

[SGWilko]

Hell would have to freeze over before I cheer for another McLaren driver, let alone their bloody cars.

Already happened in 1994, a certain money orientated American mega group, vowed they would only ever reform when Hell Freezes Over........

[seppefan]

Heads must roll. It is imperative that Mclaren sort themselves in the publics eye and so Whitmarsh, Neale maybe Dennis must go. If nobody is chopped they will have this hanging over them.

[SGWilko]

Heads must roll. It is imperative that Mclaren sort themselves in the publics eye and so Whitmarsh, Neale maybe Dennis must go. If nobody is chopped they will have this hanging over them.

Would Haug meake a good head man? Perhaps DR should be brought in........

If only McLaren had blown the cover at Melbourne, or contacted JT about Stepney, jeez it could have been so different.

Still, if is f1 backwards!!! ;)

[Valve Bounce]

Already happened in 1994, a certain money orientated American mega group, vowed they would only ever reform when Hell Freezes Over........

The Beatles?? :confused:

[SGWilko]

The Beatles?? :confused:

Were they American?

The Eagles.

[ioan]

No need - you have my word on it!!

Don't take it seriously, it was just a joke! :)

[markabilly]

What are you saying, that McLAren are the victim?
Of their own greed...........

[markabilly]

Still, it's not beyond Max to make a deal with Ron to the effect that you resign before the next season and McLaren will race, stay and they will be banned. RD wants to make a bit of cash from his 15% stake in McLaren, so he would naturally want to see them on the grid (even if it is on his TV in some remote location.)
Without question, that has been discussed very seriously behind the scenes, and may be part of the deal already being played out in carefully scripted steps for the benefit of the F1 cash flow and the paying public.

You must be reading a copy of MaX's Prince and not drinking your kool aid..... :eek:


But it does mean that any dscussion of "penalties" for next year is merely academic and specualtive as the deal has been done, just like the immunity for drivers sealed the fate of mac but kept interest going and the cash flowing...

[Valve Bounce]

Were they American?

The Eagles.

I knew that - besides one of them is not with us anymore.

[Valve Bounce]

Heads must roll. It is imperative that Mclaren sort themselves in the publics eye and so Whitmarsh, Neale maybe Dennis must go. If nobody is chopped they will have this hanging over them.



http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2972541,00.html

Here's a little more.

[TMorel]

I'm actually shocked.
Not because of this sudden revolation, but the fact that I had actually started to believe Ron had got a grip on things.
I've actively disliked McLaren for more years than I can remember, only this year was I forced to cheer a) for "personal reasons" and b) because Lewis was a breath of fresh air
The personal reason left McL mid season and Lewis is no longer new so I'll go back to cheering no one.
The only thing I do still believe in is that F1 is full of crooks thieves and liers. I don't have a problem with that, I'm just fed up with the smugness from all fans as the finger of guilt swings to/from "their" team over the course of the years.

[Daniel]

I know it's wrong to gloat but how do all those who say there was not cheating feel now? :rotflmao:

My feeling is that the boardroom at Stuttgart will not be at all happy with this and that Ron ''I live and breathe this team. And there is no way anything incorrect has taken place here' Dennis will be gone before long.

His position is utterly untenable. He, and he alone, must carry the can for not being more forceful in extracting the facts from his organisation.

For the good of Mclaren as a company and for the effect this sordid affair must have on the otherwise impeccable image of Mercedes-Benz, the only thing that can bring any sense of integrity back to Mclaren is Ron's departure.

I might also point out that, despite the overwhelming pleasure that saying 'told you so' would have given Ferrari, their acceptance of the apology is to be applauded.

If only Mr Dennis had been so fair.

[Bagwan]

My feeling is that the boardroom at Stuttgart will not be at all happy with this and that Ron ''I live and breathe this team. And there is no way anything incorrect has taken place here' Dennis will be gone before long.

His position is utterly untenable. He, and he alone, must carry the can for not being more forceful in extracting the facts from his organisation.

For the good of Mclaren as a company and for the effect this sordid affair must have on the otherwise impeccable image of Mercedes-Benz, the only thing that can bring any sense of integrity back to Mclaren is Ron's departure.

I might also point out that, despite the overwhelming pleasure that saying 'told you so' would have given Ferrari, their acceptance of the apology is to be applauded.

If only Mr Dennis had been so fair.

Well said , Tamburello , however , I feel we need to , in the spirit of the acceptance of the apology , give Ron a chance to change .
He's had the same rhetoric flowing for years about the integrity and equal treatment , and now I want to see him walk the walk .

When the junkie reaches his lowest point , he has the chance to get clean .

Given the circumstances , walking the walk may just mean he will walk away .

Let's see what he does before we decide it's the wrong thing .

[markabilly]

My feeling is that the boardroom at Stuttgart will not be at all happy with this and that Ron ''I live and breathe this team. And there is no way anything incorrect has taken place here' Dennis will be gone before long.

His position is utterly untenable. He, and he alone, must carry the can for not being more forceful in extracting the facts from his organisation.

For the good of Mclaren as a company and for the effect this sordid affair must have on the otherwise impeccable image of Mercedes-Benz, the only thing that can bring any sense of integrity back to Mclaren is Ron's departure.

I might also point out that, despite the overwhelming pleasure that saying 'told you so' would have given Ferrari, their acceptance of the apology is to be applauded.

If only Mr Dennis had been so fair.

You could write the press release...but as I said earlier, the deal is already DONE behind closed doors, and the question now is when, in terms of the script of this little play being acted out for the benefit of everyone's cash flow, when will it happen and no longer "if"

But to re-quote myself, that departure is just putting a bandage on someone's neck when he has been decapitated

As I put in the poll thread, if things were really and truly about the rules and sportsmanship, then penalties and such would be imposed on 2008...but why hurt cash flow and interest, unless really necessary to preserve long term health. And it was that reason for the penalty (to preserve long term health the same as is this little development of yesterday) brought about by a certain driver's refusual to follow team orders that lead to the public display resulting in the other driver driver (FA) losing five grid places....so really the inner cricle of Ron has no one to blame but themselves.

Besides MaX being a bit uppity and calling RD or Mac a bunch of liars or whatever by him, is like "the kettle calling the pot black", as they say back home in the hills as MaX knows lieing better than anyone....sad thing is that I so enjoy the racing and this stuff just ruins it, might as well be a movie....call it "Woking Nights"

:mad:

Bagwan, I admire your willingness to offer a chance for Mr Dennis to redeem himself, but have you read the FIA's own report?

http://www.fia.com/public/mclaren.pdf

Article 38 is very revealing......

Mclaren were using confidential Ferrari information at the Japanese GP.....AFTER they had already been found guilty and AFTER the FIA had announced their plans to investigate Mclaren further!!!!

Added to that, Ron Dennis publicly stated that Coughlan was not directly involved in design and development. Ron Dennis therefore publicly lied and, as the head of Mclaren, was responsible for his team continuing to use confidential Ferrari information on the Mclaren cars AFTER Mclaren were found guilty on September 13th.

No matter that Ron Dennis be given the chance to redeem himself....he had that chance on September 14th but chose not to take it.

The man is a disgrace.

[AndyRAC]

McLaren today, ???????? tomorrow!! Who the day after?

F1 is rotten to the core, big money is ruining it/has ruined it. I don't believe a word anybody says anymore.

[markabilly]

McLaren today, ???????? tomorrow!! Who the day after?

F1 is rotten to the core, big money is ruining it/has ruined it. I don't believe a word anybody says anymore.
Obviously some are still willing to believe somewhere....

of course the real question is just how "clean" really is Renault, but since renault has not been the one creating all the "bad PR stuff" and were certainly not dumb enough to be filing an "appeal" for "rule clarification" only to argue to throw others out of the race because of fuel temp issues so their driver could be the WDC, right in the middle of being scrutinized.....duh....

and Flavio, unlike Ron, has the good sense to be bernie's business partner as well as manager for about three-fourths of the eligible F1 drivers...so we will never know ever, now will we??????it would not be good for the sport to see more of the corruption buried behind the veil....so let us go race and debate as though this never happened....besides one would think with Ron's riches as in 100 million plus....that enough is enough...

[I am evil Homer]

Obviously some are still willing to believe somewhere....

of course the real question is just how "clean" really is Renault, but since renault has not been the one creating all the "bad PR stuff" and were certainly not dumb enough to be filing an "appeal" for "rule clarification" only to argue to throw others out of the race because of fuel temp issues so their driver could be the WDC, right in the middle of being scrutinized.....duh....

and Flavio, unlike Ron, has the good sense to be bernie's business partner as well as manager for about three-fourths of the eligible F1 drivers...so we will never know ever, now will we??????it would not be good for the sport to see more of the corruption buried behind the veil....so let us go race and debate as though this never happened....besides one would think with Ron's riches as in 100 million plus....that enough is enough...

Agreed....if you dig enough you could find every single team on the grid has cheated at some point in the last 5 years. I want to watch next season from a fresh slate and lets see what happens!

There's plenty going on behind the scenes we'll never know about - and probably never want to for fear it would ruin our percecption of the teams and drivers we follow and get out of bed at 3am just see them race!

[Daniel]

Agreed....if you dig enough you could find every single team on the grid has cheated at some point in the last 5 years. I want to watch next season from a fresh slate and lets see what happens!

There's plenty going on behind the scenes we'll never know about - and probably never want to for fear it would ruin our percecption of the teams and drivers we follow and get out of bed at 3am just see them race!

Who is everybody? I could say everybody uses drugs these days and to a certain extent I'm kinda right. But for me to accuse someone in particular without evidence is wrong. So don't accuse any other teams unless you have evidence.

[ArrowsFA1]

Who is everybody? I could say everybody uses drugs these days and to a certain extent I'm kinda right. But for me to accuse someone in particular without evidence is wrong. So don't accuse any other teams unless you have evidence.
:up:

Equally, as Nigel Roebuck has said, "I think it very unfortunate that the outside world has been led to believe that 'exchanging information' is something new, a crime that formerly didn't exist - that motor racing has suddenly become 'a dirty sport'."

[ioan]

Arrows, what about McLaren acknowledging that the FIA were right and that the team was cheating and lying all the way?

You supported them all the way too.
How does it feel now?

[Daniel]

Cheating is wrong. Stop using the "everyone else is doing it!" defence. When someone else is caught doing it then poo to them! But don't tar everyone with the same brush until it's proven. That's an old school yard excuse if ever there was one.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64386

Speaks volumes.

Equally, as Nigel Roebuck has said, "I think it very unfortunate that the outside world has been led to believe that 'exchanging information' is something new, a crime that formerly didn't exist - that motor racing has suddenly become 'a dirty sport'."

One Mclaren defender quoting another proves very little.

If I may use a quote that better sums up this utter disgrace.....

''I live and breathe this team. And there is no way anything incorrect has taken place here"

Copyright Ron Dennis, July 2007.

[ClarkFan]

Bagwan, I admire your willingness to offer a chance for Mr Dennis to redeem himself, but have you read the FIA's own report?

http://www.fia.com/public/mclaren.pdf

Article 38 is very revealing......

Mclaren were using confidential Ferrari information at the Japanese GP.....AFTER they had already been found guilty and AFTER the FIA had announced their plans to investigate Mclaren further!!!!

Added to that, Ron Dennis publicly stated that Coughlan was not directly involved in design and development. Ron Dennis therefore publicly lied and, as the head of Mclaren, was responsible for his team continuing to use confidential Ferrari information on the Mclaren cars AFTER Mclaren were found guilty on September 13th.

No matter that Ron Dennis be given the chance to redeem himself....he had that chance on September 14th but chose not to take it.

The man is a disgrace.

But ousting Dennis wouldn't even be enough. How many members of the team were knowingly using Ferrari information? Anyone with that taint should get an extended ban from participating in a team in any FIA-sanctioned racing series. Let them try to find jobs in NASCAR (where if "you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin') or IRL/ChampCar where no one is watching anyway.

And Kovalainen may be the real loser here. He has been handed a poisoned chalice.

ClarkFan

[ArrowsFA1]

How does it feel now?
Fed up and tired of the whole situation, as I have been almost from the beginning because those involved have damaged "my" sport and, in my view, McLaren are not totally responsible for that.

But, they have been held responsible and penalised.I hope their apology puts an end to it all and we can have a great 2008 season without such an acrimonious atmosphere.

[Daniel]

Name the team who forced McLaren to cheat. Only they are responsible.

[ioan]

...McLaren are not totally responsible for that.

:eek:
And some people call me a fanatic.

[SGWilko]

I knew that - besides one of them is not with us anymore.

Did you read Don's book? Sorry, not very F1 related.... ;)

[truefan72]

I read the full statement twice
and no where did it say that the information was used on the 2007 or 2008 car. they are admitting that more engineers were aware of the IP stuff and it was on several computers. But that's is about it. In 2 different portions, they make it abundently clear that the investigators found no evidenceof the information being used on the 2007 or 2008 car.

So all the sudden fantastic outrage some here are experiencing should first read the letter sent to the FIA than what some sites are interpeting.

If they knew about this and deliberately misled the FIA then a fine is justified for that, but $100 million is still excessive IMO.

As I recall Renault were in possesion of McClaren data and shared it amongst engineers...and their fine $0.

so the $100 million difference is in not coming clean initially?

And as to Ferrari fans, this is by no means a vindication in any way shape or form. They are lucky that the FIA haven't in the past investigated them for their deliberate infractions. As I recall the FIA simply shifted the line of legality.

I suspect that McClaren simply decided to fall on their own sword and end this whole thing rather than continue to waste time and money on a no-win situation.

I have heard from a pretty good source that all this information was known back in october and they recently went to FIA and asked them what it would take to end the harrasment/matter, The FIA probably said a highly public mea culpa and paying the fine will suffice. And McClaren agreed.

This is nothing more than a plea bargain ( to use a legal term) that pretty much ends the whole affair, with both sides sort of getting what they want.

From McClaren they get to move on, they issue a statement reiterating that no info was used on the 2007 or 2008 car. They get to sign Kovaleinen and prepare for the new year.

From FIA (ie MM) they get a public apology from McClaren and they get the fine paid.

This matter is now closed. If there really was an issue about the cars having Ferrari IP used in them then surely theywould have been subject to an ongoing investigation, and/or had their drivers points stripped in 2007.

So lets calm down with the smoking gun theiry or that the 2007 McClaren cr had Ferrari IP in it.

I guess in these dog days of winter, some here would see this in a disproportionate view, while others would use the clarification as the definitive evidence however inapproriate it may be.

I for one am glad the matter is over.
And so should we all, as we can get back to the business of racing.

[airshifter]

Arrows, what about McLaren acknowledging that the FIA were right and that the team was cheating and lying all the way?

You supported them all the way too.
How does it feel now?


Are you reading a different letter? McLaren admits the information went beyond what they found, with wider distribution within the team and accepts that punishment as such.

Please quote where it says they admit to lying and cheating.

[truefan72]

Are you reading a different letter? McLaren admits the information went beyond what they found, with wider distribution within the team and accepts that punishment as such.

Please quote where it says they admit to lying and cheating.

that's what I am saying
thanks Airshifter

people will want to see what they want to

and why let a little thing like the offical letter to FIA and the actual facts (and accepted by them) get in the way of ones opinion.

[AJP]

I know it's wrong to gloat but how do all those who say there was not cheating feel now? :rotflmao:

I'm not sure anyone has said there was "NO" cheating in McLaren...

[Valve Bounce]

I read the full statement twice
and no where did it say that the information was used on the 2007 or 2008 car.


Perhaps this article might shed some light:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64374

[weeflyonthewall]

The most mind boggling aspect for me was how people were blinded by their hate towards the FIA and Ferrari while completely missing McLaren's wrong doings.

I also ask myself what Mercedes top managers are feeling about their name being associated with McLaren at this moment.

One of the teams Spanish sponsors decided to pull out today, they even mentioned that it isn't because of Alonso. I believe them,having your name associated to liars and cheaters it's not worth to pay for.

Most of them likely accept the fact this form of "intelligence leakage" has been part of F1 for decades. Except now we have a major shift in what will tolerated and what won't. Does it make McLaren any worse than the others? I believe some teams like Renault are just better at keeping a lid on things.

[Daniel]

I'm not sure anyone has said there was "NO" cheating in McLaren...
Have you been reading different threads the last few months? :confused:

[Bagwan]

Bagwan, I admire your willingness to offer a chance for Mr Dennis to redeem himself, but have you read the FIA's own report?

http://www.fia.com/public/mclaren.pdf

Article 38 is very revealing......

Mclaren were using confidential Ferrari information at the Japanese GP.....AFTER they had already been found guilty and AFTER the FIA had announced their plans to investigate Mclaren further!!!!

Added to that, Ron Dennis publicly stated that Coughlan was not directly involved in design and development. Ron Dennis therefore publicly lied and, as the head of Mclaren, was responsible for his team continuing to use confidential Ferrari information on the Mclaren cars AFTER Mclaren were found guilty on September 13th.

No matter that Ron Dennis be given the chance to redeem himself....he had that chance on September 14th but chose not to take it.

The man is a disgrace.

Yes , he is . He is in tatters .
He's a snake , a lout , a bounder , and a cad , and it is for all to see .
His flaying in the press has been swift and brutal .
A lot of people were sticking up for this team , and they are left now with feelings of betrayal , and disbelief at the despicable antics of which you speak .

There is no doubt that Ron will consider retiring and selling his portion to Mercedes , but , if he's wants to prove he's tough enough to ride this storm out , he can rebuild his brand , and bring some worth back to the McLaren name , as it aint worth a plug nickel right now , although that is mitigated by Max calling off the inspections .

They'll be racing next year , with or without Ron , and even though I have never been a Ron fan , I believe he needs to be there .

But , he definitely deserves all the agro he is currently getting .


I've tried to analyse this whole thing from outside the passion of being either a McLaren fanatic or a Tifoso , and concluded they were crooks long ago .
It's time for the betrayed McLaren fan to speak out against what a few have done to their proud team name .

[markabilly]

I would like to see this matter over and a return to real racing, but unlike some folks, I see there is now, more than ever, clear hypocrisy by the FIA, mac, and Max and berinei that shows just how corrupt the sport is. And the resignation of RD or letters of apology and so forth does not change that one bit.

I do not believe I can become enough of a hypocrite to really enjoy it--and a hypocrite is just someone who is lieing about stuff, pretending it does not exist for their own reasons, another form of cheating but usually the person they are cheating the most is themselves.

Until the sport is cleaned up by starting with the top dogs, there can be nothing but more hypocrisy, all in the name of good of the sport.

Truefan72 has just been reading the latest "kool aid" on the GP website this one,http://www.grandprix.com/index.html

[AJP]

Have you been reading different threads the last few months? :confused:

No.

[AJP]

It would be fantastic to just get on with the racing and move on...
BUT, the damage has been done, McLaren and Ron have been caught red handed and have failed miserably at covering it up like other teams have been able to do in the past. Ron could not control Alonso, so the ship sunk very quickly.
Stealing data and spying has always been a part of this sport, and the fact that Max and Ron don't get along has been I think, a major part in this whole saga.
I hope that Max leaves the sport, and Ron for that matter.
With these men staying in F1, there will always be too many ifs, buts and maybes to consider and from my point of view..absolutely no trust.
Not that was any trust anyway.. ;)

[jso1985]

This is pretty damning. I reckon McLaren should be excluded from 2008.

why? because they're sorry of their actions?

They have already been punished for being liars and cheaters(was clear they were way before that recent statement), wheter the punishment was of your likeness or not, is another thing, but I really don't see why they should be punished again for saying sorry.

Really ugly thing that happened to my favourite team and everything was thei fault, real shame but let's move on

[ioan]

Most of them likely accept the fact this form of "intelligence leakage" has been part of F1 for decades.

"This" form is a new one, in this case McLaren were continuously receiving the Ferrari data from a Ferrari engineer during several months.

I doubt this ever happened before in F1.

And on top of that the team used the Ferrari data even after they were told that their designs will be inspected.
I don't even know how this latest behavior should be named!?

[airshifter]

I'm still waiting for a quote that shows the McLaren car gained advantage from Ferrari information. Neither the FIA letter or the McLaren letter have such a quote, even though it seems widely used as fact here.

It's already clear that the information was in circulation with intent to be used. They have already paid a huge fine for this taking place.

Intent to cheat does not benefit either a car it wasn't used on, or a car now subject to extra scrutiny to ensure that it doesn't benefit from information they got from Ferrari.

[Valve Bounce]

"This" form is a new one, in this case McLaren were continuously receiving the Ferrari data from a Ferrari engineer during several months.

I doubt this ever happened before in F1.

And on top of that the team used the Ferrari data even after they were told that their designs will be inspected.
I don't even know how this latest behavior should be named!?

How about "STUPID"?

I do admit that I was on McLaren's side and sceptical of anything Max came up with. "Maybe Ron didn't know", "Maybe they never used the information", ; in fact I thought ioan was going much too far.

I am very disappointed to have been proven wrong on this; that I never really could believe that McLaren could possibly want to use Ferrari information for their own benefit.

I guess many of us were fooled into believing in McLaren's innocence at something Stepney and Coughlan delved into for their own benefit, and maybe hopefully for Honda if Honda were silly enough to hire the two of them.

I ca only say that I am glad that Kimi won the WDC fair and square, that McLaren's appeal against BMW and Williams now show how bloody underhand McLaren really were.

I have no time for McLaren after all this. As I posted elsewhere, I only wish they not be excluded from F1 because there are not enough teams for all the good drivers around, and because F1 simply cannot afford to lose another team.

Damn!! I was so wrong in all this :(

[ClarkFan]

I'm still waiting for a quote that shows the McLaren car gained advantage from Ferrari information. Neither the FIA letter or the McLaren letter have such a quote, even though it seems widely used as fact here.

It's already clear that the information was in circulation with intent to be used. They have already paid a huge fine for this taking place.

Intent to cheat does not benefit either a car it wasn't used on, or a car now subject to extra scrutiny to ensure that it doesn't benefit from information they got from Ferrari.

Let's see. McLaren has confidential information from Ferrari, with a regular feed. They use that information to direct and channel their own research (clearly deductible from the WMSC findings). No, no advantage gained there at all...... :rolleyes:

ClarkFan

[truefan72]

Perhaps this article might shed some light:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64374


despite the fact that it is a report from the autosport, and they cleverly use terms like inspired by, and discussed, there still is no hard evidence that they used Ferrari parts in their car. It is absolutely quite normal for teamsto compare and contrast systems and even try to match it up to a competitors specs for performance sake. So this is little more than a confirmation that engineers discussed the data,.

If the FIA sees fit to end the investigation and NOT require McClaren to go through the february inspection then we can assume that they have satisifed whatever requirements they saw fit to instill.

so all the rumor and suspicions aptly written about by various websites don't constitute the facts.

[truefan72]

Let's see. McLaren has confidential information from Ferrari, with a regular feed. They use that information to direct and channel their own research (clearly deductible from the WMSC findings). No, no advantage gained there at all...... :rolleyes:

ClarkFan


my God have you guys been living in a vacuum for 30 years or are just so bent on crucifying mcclaren. Discussing and researching other teams data is standard practice. I remember a time when during winter testing a whole slew of "camera men" and specifically postitioned people used to be up and down the paddock taking pictures and trying to assemple as much information as they could about competitors. then going back tot their respective teams and analysing the data.
Teams quite often were caught with info from their competitors when engineers, staff and mechanics switched teams. yes they used to sighn a nondisclosure agreement, but short of brainwashing that sort of IP information always and I mean always got around.

Please, teams today don't live in a vacuum.
I am more than 100% sure that every team has data on every other team in some shape or form. Wether it was gotten by a "mole" or simply "remembered by new engineers, etc. it is a fact of F1 life.

I also recall

[CNR]

is f1 one big joke

http://thestar.com.my/sports/story.asp?file=/2007/12/15/sports/19773307&sec=sports


Saturday December 15, 2007


FIA to scrap hearing after team apologise over ‘spygate’

LONDON: McLaren accepted on Thursday that Ferrari data had penetrated deeper into their team than suspected and issued a public apology for the spying controversy.
In a statement, the Formula One team also offered to impose a moratorium on the development of three separate systems on their new car “to avoid even the possibility of Ferrari information influencing our performance during 2008”. In return, the governing International Automobile Federation (FIA) said they would seek to cancel a meeting called for Feb 14 to assess McLaren's 2008 car after a technical report last week raised suspicions about it.

[wmcot]

despite the fact that it is a report from the autosport, and they cleverly use terms like inspired by, and discussed, there still is no hard evidence that they used Ferrari parts in their car. It is absolutely quite normal for teamsto compare and contrast systems and even try to match it up to a competitors specs for performance sake. So this is little more than a confirmation that engineers discussed the data,.

If the FIA sees fit to end the investigation and NOT require McClaren to go through the february inspection then we can assume that they have satisifed whatever requirements they saw fit to instill.

so all the rumor and suspicions aptly written about by various websites don't constitute the facts.

OK, there are no parts stamped with "Ferrari" on them, but their are at least 3 systems that were found similar enough to the Ferrari design to be considered "copied or stolen."

[ioan]

Man! You McLaren fanatics have got to stop buying your eyeglasses from Ron Dennis!

It's even worse than that. Now that Ron told them that they won't deliver any McLaren shaded glasses, their fanatics are disappointed about this decision.

[F1boat]

I still think that McLaren should be banned for 2008 season. Or at least I hope that the team becomes Mercedes-Benz and Ron leaves the sport.

[ArrowsFA1]

Are you reading a different letter? McLaren admits the information went beyond what they found, with wider distribution within the team and accepts that punishment as such.
In the stampede to bury McLaren, perhaps inevitably, the apology is being seen by some as a complete and utter capitulation and acceptance of all the charges, formal and speculative, made against them.

Instead, as others have said, it is more of an acceptance by all of those involved that this has to end. The apology was the route to achieving that.

[Daniel]

In the stampede to bury McLaren, perhaps inevitably, the apology is being seen by some as a complete and utter capitulation and acceptance of all the charges, formal and speculative, made against them.

Instead, as others have said, it is more of an acceptance by all of those involved that this has to end. The apology was the route to achieving that.
You're deluded :) You see St Ron as trying to end the horror that was Spygate when all he is doing is admitting that the team cheated and trying to slime his way with the old good behaviour act. For a man to say so many times that nothing wrong happened, nothing wrong happened and that a whole lot of nothing wrong happened and now he's been shown to be a dirty stinking liar with no sense of what was going on in his team.

in my view, McLaren are not totally responsible for that.

Well, no, because Nigel Stepney is also responsible. In the light of the latest revelations, however, Mclaren are solely responsible for their, at the most charitable, negligence.

What a shame, however, that the majority who castigated the FIA and defended the integrity of Mclaren cannot bring themselves, in the light of Mclaren's own damning self-confession and the overwhelming guilt proven by one visit to their factory by the FIA investigation team, to condemn Mclaren for bringing the sport into utter disrepute.

The notion that anybody else is responsible for Mclaren's flagrant disregard for the sport is both disgraceful and laughable.

The apology was the route to achieving that.

The apology was required.

Full stop.

[Neil Andrew]

If RD was the chairman of a normal UK company of the size of the MacLaren Group he would be gone by now. The institutional shareholders would have demanded it. Mercedes are the equivalent of the institutional shareholder. They will certainly be considering how this reflects on them, and will be considering how best to defend their reputation. They may well demand RD's resignation.

I note also that Whittacker signed the confession letter, and is also the one who has issued comment on the signing of HK. No mention of RD there. Does this tell us something?

The majority of those who bought into the "Mac is whiter than white line" have been uncharacteristicly quiet. This includes Stewart, Hill etc off the forum, and certain forum members. SGWilco has done the honourable thing, and all credit to him, as ioan says a "Gentleman' and I agree with that. Others have been silent or evasive at best. Arrows seeking to quote Roebuck is ironic at best.
Roebuck for those who might not know is the supreme "Cut & Paste" artist, without opinion of his own but always ready to quote a famous name and align himself with that opinion. He has backed RD hook line and sinker, and was still doing so as the news broke. I await his retraction, but am not holding my breathe...

nca

[markabilly]

In the stampede to bury McLaren, perhaps inevitably, the apology is being seen by some as a complete and utter capitulation and acceptance of all the charges, formal and speculative, made against them.

Instead, as others have said, it is more of an acceptance by all of those involved that this has to end. The apology was the route to achieving that.
you must be reading grandprix.com......and it will not end not with mac. If there is no penalty, then there might as well NOT be much in rules about stealing anything from another team. Mac has again been caught cheating and lieing--and in the absence of the inspection, it would have continued and gone unabated!!!Not even the penalty imposed on MS for a plank too thin, not the penalty for certain race tank features.....besides

Who is dumb enough to think after all the the lies and nonsense of this year from them, that this freeze "promise" means anything.

Ignore the false statements about "equality" that is contradicted by actions and statements such as who we were racing against, and then ignore the "We are not appealling the race result, but they should be DQ, so LH can have a wdc" lies, or the emails than turned up from mac's own computers that shows continued widespread discussions of data after the first hearing (wonder how many others emails were successfully dumped??) and look solely at this one inescapable fact:

Knowing that they were facing this inspection, they still had the utter gall and lack of ethics to attempt to slide this car right through into 2008 in hopes of continuing to cheat in 2008.

[airshifter]

OK, there are no parts stamped with "Ferrari" on them, but their are at least 3 systems that were found similar enough to the Ferrari design to be considered "copied or stolen."




Quote the place where the report states that.

Of the systems in place on the 2007 car, there is at least one that the FIA claimed appears to have been influenced by the Ferrari information. (One of the brake system issues investigated) But McLaren were given permission from the FIA to use the system they had in place, after the investigation was started.

[truefan72]

In the stampede to bury McLaren, perhaps inevitably, the apology is being seen by some as a complete and utter capitulation and acceptance of all the charges, formal and speculative, made against them.

Instead, as others have said, it is more of an acceptance by all of those involved that this has to end. The apology was the route to achieving that.

that about sums it up.

Some on this thread will continue with their RD/McClaren attacks, and there is no helping that. Suffice to say that their wishes for a McClaren demise or expulsion or blown out of proportion outrage, reaches no farther than this forum.

McClaren will be driving in 2008 and theSpygate Saga has come to an end.
Unless theywould rather talk about this stuff than actual racing etc.

[wmcot]

Quote the place where the report states that.

Of the systems in place on the 2007 car, there is at least one that the FIA claimed appears to have been influenced by the Ferrari information. (One of the brake system issues investigated) But McLaren were given permission from the FIA to use the system they had in place, after the investigation was started.

From the McLaren apology on Motorsport.com:

"...Toward that end we would like to express our willingness, despite not agreeing with the findings, to enter into discussion with the FIA Technical Department as to a moratorium of an appropriate length in respect of the use of quickshift, fast fill or CO2 as a tyre gas..."

So there is doubt by the FIA investigators about McLaren's brake balance, "quickshift," "fastfill," and the use of CO2 in the tires as coming from Ferrari data.

Of course, McLaren (and their blind fans) will not agree that any of this could have come from Ferrari and that Ron should be sainted and a statue of him placed in every Anglican church!

[wmcot]

that about sums it up.

Some on this thread will continue with their RD/McClaren attacks, and there is no helping that. Suffice to say that their wishes for a McClaren demise or expulsion or blown out of proportion outrage, reaches no farther than this forum.

McClaren will be driving in 2008 and theSpygate Saga has come to an end.
Unless theywould rather talk about this stuff than actual racing etc.

And since McLaren apologized, we naturally assume that since they have demonstrated "integrity" that they will never use the questionable parts on any car ever! We have Ron's (OK, Martin's) word on it! (for what that's worth)

Remember, a lot of people trusted in the words of Adolf Hitler, too!

[airshifter]

From the McLaren apology on Motorsport.com:

"...Toward that end we would like to express our willingness, despite not agreeing with the findings, to enter into discussion with the FIA Technical Department as to a moratorium of an appropriate length in respect of the use of quickshift, fast fill or CO2 as a tyre gas..."

So there is doubt by the FIA investigators about McLaren's brake balance, "quickshift," "fastfill," and the use of CO2 in the tires as coming from Ferrari data.

Of course, McLaren (and their blind fans) will not agree that any of this could have come from Ferrari and that Ron should be sainted and a statue of him placed in every Anglican church!


That quote has nothing to do with evidence found in the investigation, it has to do with McLaren appealing the findings and expecting a reasonable limit.

The boy racers know about using C02 and nitrogen in tires, this is F1!

[SGWilko]

Lets look at a few points re the McLaren statement.

1. Thank heavens they released it. It is 9 months too late, but at least it is now out.

2. Yes, there is still not 100% cast iron proof that the systems in question on the McLaren were influenced or copied from Ferrari, but the coincidence of this, in the light of the flow of info from Ferrari to McLaren, leaves little doubt (in my mind) that it is highly likely.....

3. McLaren should not be removed from the 2008 championship. As has been stated before, there are far too many good drivers, and a welcome influx of young blood.

4. Maybe Ron will go, but just how involved in all this were Whitmarsh & Mercedes (Haug)?

I am still reeling from all this, but for me the statement confirms that they (McLaren) have been at least very stupid, if not darn right arrogant. Why oh why, could McLaren have not seen the opportunity, when Stepney first made contact, to burn bridges, invite Jean to their HQ, show him waht Stepney was up to, and make Ferrari an ally, not alienate them even more........

Now, I am also sure (but there is no proof, is there......?) that 'spying' IS rife up and down the pitlane, but a regular flow of info from a 'live' employee, that simply is just 'not cricket'. And, didn't Stepney suggest he was getting info from Coughlan? Well, all I can say to that is 'two wrongs do not make a right'!

Lets just wait and see what the criminal investigation reveals, because if anything, that has the potential to uncover all the minutiae of this sorry saga.

I hope Heikki and Lewis have a great relationship, both on and off the track, time will tell - they'd better get on, because that end pit garage is awfully small :p : ........

[airshifter]

I am still reeling from all this, but for me the statement confirms that they (McLaren) have been at least very stupid, if not darn right arrogant. Why oh why, could McLaren have not seen the opportunity, when Stepney first made contact, to burn bridges, invite Jean to their HQ, show him waht Stepney was up to, and make Ferrari an ally, not alienate them even more........

Now, I am also sure (but there is no proof, is there......?) that 'spying' IS rife up and down the pitlane, but a regular flow of info from a 'live' employee, that simply is just 'not cricket'. And, didn't Stepney suggest he was getting info from Coughlan? Well, all I can say to that is 'two wrongs do not make a right'!



The stupid, arrogant, and intention to use the information I don't doubt for a second. But I've only seen one point on the FIA report that they felt the information WAS used on the 2007 car.

That alone in my mind would have been just reason to DQ the team for the 2007 season, but the immunity killed that. To DQ them from 2008 would in my opinion, just drag the matter on even further.

And though I supported a driver in a Ferrari this season I must also agree with the point of two wrongs not making a right.

[ClarkFan]

my God have you guys been living in a vacuum for 30 years or are just so bent on crucifying mcclaren. Discussing and researching other teams data is standard practice. I remember a time when during winter testing a whole slew of "camera men" and specifically postitioned people used to be up and down the paddock taking pictures and trying to assemple as much information as they could about competitors. then going back tot their respective teams and analysing the data.
Teams quite often were caught with info from their competitors when engineers, staff and mechanics switched teams. yes they used to sighn a nondisclosure agreement, but short of brainwashing that sort of IP information always and I mean always got around.

Please, teams today don't live in a vacuum.
I am more than 100% sure that every team has data on every other team in some shape or form. Wether it was gotten by a "mole" or simply "remembered by new engineers, etc. it is a fact of F1 life.

But getting information from a mole is very different. It is essentially a live, real-time feed into a team's R&D as it is taking place, before anything has seen the light of day. Departing engineers will always be somewhat out of date, as research moved on since they left. And any design that sees the light of day is open to scrutiny and inspection - that has always been part of the game. Taking current data is theft, plain and simple. And using that data is receipt of stolen property. That is a crime, too.

ClarkFan

[Valve Bounce]

But getting information from a mole is very different. It is essentially a live, real-time feed into a team's R&D as it is taking place, before anything has seen the light of day. Departing engineers will always be somewhat out of date, as research moved on since they left. And any design that sees the light of day is open to scrutiny and inspection - that has always been part of the game. Taking current data is theft, plain and simple. And using that data is receipt of stolen property. That is a crime, too.

ClarkFan

Agreed!! :up:

[ArrowsFA1]

Others have been silent or evasive at best. Arrows seeking to quote Roebuck is ironic at best.
Roebuck for those who might not know is the supreme "Cut & Paste" artist, without opinion of his own but always ready to quote a famous name and align himself with that opinion. He has backed RD hook line and sinker, and was still doing so as the news broke. I await his retraction, but am not holding my breathe...
I quote Roebuck because he brings perspective to this latest occurence of something that has been going on in F1 for decades. That does not excuse it when it happens, but it does help dismiss this impression that we are witnessing something new. We're not.

Your dismissal of a highly respected journalist is unfortunately typical of the kind of "character assassinations" that have been at the heart of this affair. Mosley's "certified halfwit" comment was another example. Obviously, not everyone agrees with Roebuck's viewpoint and that's fair enough, but the way in which such views are attacked is distasteful. As is much of what has gone on. As someone who has been described as "deluded" in this thread I speak from experience.

Aside from starting this thread, I have sought to point out that F1 has not suddenly become a dirty sport; that I am tired and fed up of the whole case because it has damaged "my" sport; that I don't believe McLaren are entirely responsible for the whole situation; that I hope we can have a great 2008 season without such an acrimonious atmosphere.

That is what I have said, and if anyone wants to take issue with what I have said then that's fine. If certain people want to criticise me for not saying what they want me to say, or attack me based on their own interpretation of my words then that's entirely up to them.

I quote Roebuck because he brings perspective to this latest occurence of something that has been going on in F1 for decades. That does not excuse it when it happens, but it does help dismiss this impression that we are witnessing something new. We're not.

Your dismissal of a highly respected journalist is unfortunately typical of the kind of "character assassinations" that have been at the heart of this affair. Mosley's "certified halfwit" comment was another example. Obviously, not everyone agrees with Roebuck's viewpoint and that's fair enough, but the way in which such views are attacked is distasteful. As is much of what has gone on. As someone who has been described as "deluded" in this thread I speak from experience.

Aside from starting this thread, I have sought to point out that F1 has not suddenly become a dirty sport; that I am tired and fed up of the whole case because it has damaged "my" sport; that I don't believe McLaren are entirely responsible for the whole situation; that I hope we can have a great 2008 season without such an acrimonious atmosphere.

That is what I have said, and if anyone wants to take issue with what I have said then that's fine. If certain people want to criticise me for not saying what they want me to say, or attack me based on their own interpretation of my words then that's entirely up to them.

Once again, an attempt to deflect the blame. Mclaren themselves have given up that line of defence.

Any chance you'd like to comment on these quotes?

"No Ferrari materials or data are or have ever been in the possession of any McLaren employee other than the individual sued by Ferrari [Coughlan]. The fact that he held at his home unsolicited materials from Ferrari was not known to any other member of the team prior to the 3 July 2007".

Mclaren issued that statement in July.

''I live and breathe this team. And there is no way anything incorrect has taken place here"

Ron Dennis, Silverstone 2007.

Because the silence and lack of condemnation from you for these utter and complete lies speaks volumes. Even Mclaren have come clean and admitted they were wrong.

Any chance that you will?

Lets look at a few points re the McLaren statement.

1. Thank heavens they released it. It is 9 months too late, but at least it is now out.

2. Yes, there is still not 100% cast iron proof that the systems in question on the McLaren were influenced or copied from Ferrari, but the coincidence of this, in the light of the flow of info from Ferrari to McLaren, leaves little doubt (in my mind) that it is highly likely.....

3. McLaren should not be removed from the 2008 championship. As has been stated before, there are far too many good drivers, and a welcome influx of young blood.

4. Maybe Ron will go, but just how involved in all this were Whitmarsh & Mercedes (Haug)?

I am still reeling from all this, but for me the statement confirms that they (McLaren) have been at least very stupid, if not darn right arrogant. Why oh why, could McLaren have not seen the opportunity, when Stepney first made contact, to burn bridges, invite Jean to their HQ, show him waht Stepney was up to, and make Ferrari an ally, not alienate them even more........

Now, I am also sure (but there is no proof, is there......?) that 'spying' IS rife up and down the pitlane, but a regular flow of info from a 'live' employee, that simply is just 'not cricket'. And, didn't Stepney suggest he was getting info from Coughlan? Well, all I can say to that is 'two wrongs do not make a right'!

Lets just wait and see what the criminal investigation reveals, because if anything, that has the potential to uncover all the minutiae of this sorry saga.

I hope Heikki and Lewis have a great relationship, both on and off the track, time will tell - they'd better get on, because that end pit garage is awfully small :p : ........

At least there is one man who pinned his colours to the Mclaren flag who has the integrity to admit he was wrong and Mclaren were wrong.

Brave SGWilko, you are to be applauded.

[PSfan]

I read the full statement twice
and no where did it say that the information was used on the 2007 or 2008 car. they are admitting that more engineers were aware of the IP stuff and it was on several computers. But that's is about it. In 2 different portions, they make it abundently clear that the investigators found no evidenceof the information being used on the 2007 or 2008 car.

38: On 22 September 2007, McLeran wrote to Charlie Whiting seeking permission to use the [redacted - confidential] in the Japanese Grand Prix. That permission was granted on a "without prejudice" basis. [Senior McLeran Egineer] and [Senior McLeran Egineer] confirmed in their interviews that the [redacted - confidential] might be run on the 2008 car. In light of the documentary evidence, the [redacted - confidential] brake balance system appears to have been investigated and developed by McLeran as a result of the receipt of confidential Ferrari information

Clear that the investigators found no evidence of the information being used on the 2007 car my ass!

The Mcleran statement contains no real admission of guilt because should the FIA impose a really barbaric saction against them they would have no "legal" leg to stand on in regards to an appeal.


So all the sudden fantastic outrage some here are experiencing should first read the letter sent to the FIA than what some sites are interpeting.

The outrage isn't 100% from the McLeran statement, but a combination of that, the FIA findings, and the sense that F1 fans have been lied and cheated by McLeran for the whole 2007 season!


If they knew about this and deliberately misled the FIA then a fine is justified for that, but $100 million is still excessive IMO.

And in light of the new evidence from the FIA findings, $100 million is just scratching the surface... IMO...


As I recall Renault were in possesion of McClaren data and shared it amongst engineers...and their fine $0.

Is it such a hard concetp for you to digest that the $0 fine that Renault got was because it is the exact fine Mcleran got before evidence pointed at Mclerans Intent to use the questionable material!!!

I don't like the $0 fine either, but the precedent was set when McLeran claimed that only Coughlan had possesion of the material and there was zero chance of it being used to influence car design or race performance.

But now it sets another precident. in which any team can have possesion of it, gain technical knowledge of how their competitors may run their cars, and only risk sanctions if they find something worth while, and get caught trying to imitate... and thats if they aren't smart on how to hide that knowledge. Heck drivers caught speeding on pit lane during testing are subject to fines, why not this?


so the $100 million difference is in not coming clean initially?

No the $100 million fine was so that Max could afford a new car!


And as to Ferrari fans, this is by no means a vindication in any way shape or form. They are lucky that the FIA haven't in the past investigated them for their deliberate infractions. As I recall the FIA simply shifted the line of legality.

Like they did in Australia...

Australia even more proof that McLeran could gain adavantage from the Stetneygate scandal without it appearing on their own car:

71 We asked [Senior McLeran Engineer] during interview why he asked in the first place whether [Senior McLeran Engineer]'s information might have come from a mole. [Senior McLaren Engineer] said that his use of the word "mole" was a reference:
"to the fact I was aware that our protest [to the FIA] over the front floor stay [of Ferrari], partly involved a tip off from someone at Ferrari."

Partly? and the other parts where read from the documation labeled "how to build a 2007 Ferrari F1" as was mostly in possesion by Coughlan


I suspect that McClaren simply decided to fall on their own sword and end this whole thing rather than continue to waste time and money on a no-win situation.

No win... You got that right. only reason to justify holding the hearing in Feb. was because FIA probably believes the findings to be damning enough to warrent expulsion from 08, and so any decision that late would have zero effect on a car that would not race anyways.


I have heard from a pretty good source that all this information was known back in october and they recently went to FIA and asked them what it would take to end the harrasment/matter, The FIA probably said a highly public mea culpa and paying the fine will suffice. And McClaren agreed.

This is nothing more than a plea bargain ( to use a legal term) that pretty much ends the whole affair, with both sides sort of getting what they want.

From McClaren they get to move on, they issue a statement reiterating that no info was used on the 2007 or 2008 car. They get to sign Kovaleinen and prepare for the new year.

From FIA (ie MM) they get a public apology from McClaren and they get the fine paid.

This matter is now closed. If there really was an issue about the cars having Ferrari IP used in them then surely theywould have been subject to an ongoing investigation, and/or had their drivers points stripped in 2007.

So lets calm down with the smoking gun theiry or that the 2007 McClaren cr had Ferrari IP in it.

I guess in these dog days of winter, some here would see this in a disproportionate view, while others would use the clarification as the definitive evidence however inapproriate it may be.

I for one am glad the matter is over.
And so should we all, as we can get back to the business of racing.

And thats what bothers me about this "consider it closed" notion. Its December!!! I would have this thing talked to death, have every possible scenario out of the way, That McLeran 08 chasis x-rayed from front to back and guarantees that absolutely zero ferrari influence is there. I want assurances there will be no ghosts of 07 influencing the 08 season. And my dislike for ferrari stems from some "less then sporting" directions. I can see them agreeing to cancel the Feb hearing because they are aware from their own investigations that McLeran are still using aspects of the Ferrari information, and should McLeran still be competitive next year, then Ferrari can raise issue with it then, and perhaps DQ a competitor only when they prove a threat.

[tinchote]

I read the full statement twice
and no where did it say that the information was used on the 2007 or 2008 car. they are admitting that more engineers were aware of the IP stuff and it was on several computers. But that's is about it. In 2 different portions, they make it abundently clear that the investigators found no evidenceof the information being used on the 2007 or 2008 car.


PSFan beat me to the quote. You really think that the statement does not say that the info was used in the 2007 and 2008 cars? :eek:


I'm still waiting for a quote that shows the McLaren car gained advantage from Ferrari information. Neither the FIA letter or the McLaren letter have such a quote, even though it seems widely used as fact here.

It's already clear that the information was in circulation with intent to be used. They have already paid a huge fine for this taking place.

Intent to cheat does not benefit either a car it wasn't used on, or a car now subject to extra scrutiny to ensure that it doesn't benefit from information they got from Ferrari.

You gotta be kidding. The FIA document clearly states that McLaren made decisions around development based on the info received from Ferrari. Of course it is hard to quantify the influence of that into the car, but car performance is all about development: claiming that there was no evident performance gain from the info is a moot claim.

It's really interesting how the statement talks about "selective amnesia" from McLaren employees ;) :D

[Valve Bounce]

PSFan beat me to the quote. You really think that the statement does not say that the info was used in the 2007 and 2008 cars? :eek:



You gotta be kidding. The FIA document clearly states that McLaren made decisions around development based on the info received from Ferrari. Of course it is hard to quantify the influence of that into the car, but car performance is all about development: claiming that there was no evident performance gain from the info is a moot claim.

It's really interesting how the statement talks about "selective amnesia" from McLaren employees ;) :D


We have been going over this several times. I am going to say this once more: McLaren have greatly disappointed me through all this and I am no longer any fan of McLaren.

[ioan]

38: On 22 September 2007, McLeran wrote to Charlie Whiting seeking permission to use the [redacted - confidential] in the Japanese Grand Prix. That permission was granted on a "without prejudice" basis. [Senior McLeran Egineer] and [Senior McLeran Egineer] confirmed in their interviews that the [redacted - confidential] might be run on the 2008 car. In light of the documentary evidence, the [redacted - confidential] brake balance system appears to have been investigated and developed by McLeran as a result of the receipt of confidential Ferrari information

Clear that the investigators found no evidence of the information being used on the 2007 car my ass!

The Mcleran statement contains no real admission of guilt because should the FIA impose a really barbaric saction against them they would have no "legal" leg to stand on in regards to an appeal.



The outrage isn't 100% from the McLeran statement, but a combination of that, the FIA findings, and the sense that F1 fans have been lied and cheated by McLeran for the whole 2007 season!



And in light of the new evidence from the FIA findings, $100 million is just scratching the surface... IMO...



Is it such a hard concetp for you to digest that the $0 fine that Renault got was because it is the exact fine Mcleran got before evidence pointed at Mclerans Intent to use the questionable material!!!

I don't like the $0 fine either, but the precedent was set when McLeran claimed that only Coughlan had possesion of the material and there was zero chance of it being used to influence car design or race performance.

But now it sets another precident. in which any team can have possesion of it, gain technical knowledge of how their competitors may run their cars, and only risk sanctions if they find something worth while, and get caught trying to imitate... and thats if they aren't smart on how to hide that knowledge. Heck drivers caught speeding on pit lane during testing are subject to fines, why not this?



No the $100 million fine was so that Max could afford a new car!



Like they did in Australia...

Australia even more proof that McLeran could gain adavantage from the Stetneygate scandal without it appearing on their own car:

71 We asked [Senior McLeran Engineer] during interview why he asked in the first place whether [Senior McLeran Engineer]'s information might have come from a mole. [Senior McLaren Engineer] said that his use of the word "mole" was a reference:
"to the fact I was aware that our protest [to the FIA] over the front floor stay [of Ferrari], partly involved a tip off from someone at Ferrari."

Partly? and the other parts where read from the documation labeled "how to build a 2007 Ferrari F1" as was mostly in possesion by Coughlan



No win... You got that right. only reason to justify holding the hearing in Feb. was because FIA probably believes the findings to be damning enough to warrent expulsion from 08, and so any decision that late would have zero effect on a car that would not race anyways.



And thats what bothers me about this "consider it closed" notion. Its December!!! I would have this thing talked to death, have every possible scenario out of the way, That McLeran 08 chasis x-rayed from front to back and guarantees that absolutely zero ferrari influence is there. I want assurances there will be no ghosts of 07 influencing the 08 season. And my dislike for ferrari stems from some "less then sporting" directions. I can see them agreeing to cancel the Feb hearing because they are aware from their own investigations that McLeran are still using aspects of the Ferrari information, and should McLeran still be competitive next year, then Ferrari can raise issue with it then, and perhaps DQ a competitor only when they prove a threat.

Great post. :)
Gives the McLaren fans something to chew on. ;)

[airshifter]

You gotta be kidding. The FIA document clearly states that McLaren made decisions around development based on the info received from Ferrari. Of course it is hard to quantify the influence of that into the car, but car performance is all about development: claiming that there was no evident performance gain from the info is a moot claim.

It's really interesting how the statement talks about "selective amnesia" from McLaren employees ;) :D

The top of the page quote by PSfan is the most damning wording I can find in the FIA paper, and I've mentioned that pages back in the thread. If the worst they found is that something "appears" to have been influenced by the Ferrari information it leads to think that not much of it actually made it to the car. Since they cleard other systems and noted they were not influenced, I have to think they they dug fairly deep into the design of the car.

My point on this specific issue is that McLaren contacted Charlie Whiting before using the system, and was granted permission to do so. Of the papers I am reading, it is the only thing the FIA seem to think made it into the 2007 car.

[ioan]

Of the papers I am reading, it is the only thing the FIA seem to think made it into the 2007 car.

That is however more than enough.

[truefan72]

enough for a witch hunt and $100 million fine eh?

laughable,

talk about the pot calling the kettle black. besides I'm no mcclaren fanatic, I don't view things from a singular tifosi perspective. I do like most teams and most drivers, even Kimi. While I may lean towards LH's successes, it is a far cry from unable/unwilling to see beyond a certain fantasim. As I've said many times, this isn't warfare or an: "if you are not with us...you are against us" situation, which you seem to adopt.

You know, and PSfan knows, and a bunch of the other guys know that the overblown outrage has more to do with your own feelings towards the team than any facts laid out or presented, or EVEN ACCEPTED BY THE FIA AND FERRARI. You choose to see what you see as others do.

So instead of going on about a matter that has already been concluded and despite the lenghtly posts (by myself included) let's just agree to disagree and accept that all this continued talk really isn't going anywhere or changes anything except for our posts count.

I, McClaren, the FIA, and Ferrari have all moved on and accepeted the statement, so let's hope that you guys can as well. :)

[truefan72]

[i]
But now it sets another precident. in which any team can have possesion of it, gain technical knowledge of how their competitors may run their cars, and only risk sanctions if they find something worth while, and get caught trying to imitate... and thats if they aren't smart on how to hide that knowledge. Heck drivers caught speeding on pit lane during testing are subject to fines, why not this?

Seriously what F1 have you been watching and for how long.

That type of activity has always and I reiterate, always been in F1
OH, all that knowledge in mechanics/ engineers have in thir heads that they bring from their former team suddenly vanishes?
If Honda are more competitive next year, should Ross Brawn be investigated, 'cause he imparted his knowledge on a building a better machine with Honda?

The dangerous precident that is being set is not the manner in which teams may be punished for infractions, but as to who adjudicates and who administers and who decides what's or what's not worthy of a fine or the amount or mertits and investigation.

Teams used to figure this stuff out by themsleves with little or on problems until 2007 when Ferrari/FIAdecided to unleash armageadon on a particular team for what in summation was practically more hot air and little facts.

This is something that the two principles (like McClaren and Renault did prior)would get together and assess the damage and then move on.

Trust me when I tell you that this in the long term will do more damage to Ferrari than McClaren who, in the past, have proven to be habitual culprits of underhanded tactics in trying to gain an unfair advantage. Whereas teams before would complain to them and have the situation rectified quietly, now will demand $100 million fines, major investigations (as to when ecaxtly they did receive the emails and if they lied about that fact so they could run the dry's)
and a level of scrutiny that otherwhise would have faded away fairly quickly.

The FIA have also dug themselves in a hole now where they can't protect their favorite teams, cause vodafone, Hanjin, Mercedes Benz, etc as well as other teams would all complain about unfair practices/ double standards towards them and the teams they sponsor and levy pressure /threats to resolve the matter or see similar verdicts

[markabilly]

enough for a witch hunt and $100 million fine eh?

laughable,

talk about the pot calling the kettle black. besides I'm no mcclaren fanatic, I don't view things from a singular tifosi perspective. I do like most teams and most drivers, even Kimi. While I may lean towards LH's successes, it is a far cry from unable/unwilling to see beyond a certain fantasim. As I've said many times, this isn't warfare or an: "if you are not with us...you are against us" situation, which you seem to adopt.

You know, and PSfan knows, and a bunch of the other guys know that the overblown outrage has more to do with your own feelings towards the team than any facts laid out or presented, or EVEN ACCEPTED BY THE FIA AND FERRARI. You choose to see what you see as others do.

So instead of going on about a matter that has already been concluded and despite the lenghtly posts (by myself included) let's just agree to disagree and accept that all this continued talk really isn't going anywhere or changes anything except for our posts count.

I, McClaren, the FIA, and Ferrari have all moved on and accepeted the statement, so let's hope that you guys can as well. :)


Seriously what F1 have you been watching and for how long.

That type of activity has always and I reiterate, always been in F1
OH, all that knowledge in mechanics/ engineers have in thir heads that they bring from their former team suddenly vanishes?
If Honda are more competitive next year, should Ross Brawn be investigated, 'cause he imparted his knowledge on a building a better machine with Honda?

The dangerous precident that is being set is not the manner in which teams may be punished for infractions, but as to who adjudicates and who administers and who decides what's or what's not worthy of a fine or the amount or mertits and investigation.

Teams used to figure this stuff out by themsleves with little or on problems until 2007 when Ferrari/FIAdecided to unleash armageadon on a particular team for what in summation was practically more hot air and little facts.

This is something that the two principles (like McClaren and Renault did prior)would get together and assess the damage and then move on.

Trust me when I tell you that this in the long term will do more damage to Ferrari than McClaren who, in the past, have proven to be habitual culprits of underhanded tactics in trying to gain an unfair advantage. Whereas teams before would complain to them and have the situation rectified quietly, now will demand $100 million fines, major investigations (as to when ecaxtly they did receive the emails and if they lied about that fact so they could run the dry's)
and a level of scrutiny that otherwhise would have faded away fairly quickly.

The FIA have also dug themselves in a hole now where they can't protect their favorite teams, cause vodafone, Hanjin, Mercedes Benz, etc as well as other teams would all complain about unfair practices/ double standards towards them and the teams they sponsor and levy pressure /threats to resolve the matter or see similar verdicts
Humm, are really RD using an assumed name or do you just do Mac's press releases??

[PSfan]

Humm, are really RD using an assumed name or do you just do Mac's press releases??

hmmmm, Ron Dennis would have to much "integrity" to spell McLeran with 2 c's :p :


I'm thinkin he's just trying out for a position at grandprix.com

[Hawkmoon]

hmmmm, Ron Dennis would have to much "integrity" to spell McLeran with 2 c's :p :


I'm thinkin he's just trying out for a position at grandprix.com

Or with the a and e around the wrong way! ;) :p

[Hawkmoon]

In regards to Stepney-gate, I'm not really sure why people are getting so fired up about this issue. Maybe it's because Ferrari won the titles that I'm at peace with the whole thing but look at it this way:

For the Tifosi:
We won! McLaren got kicked in the nuts and Ron Dennis is squirming like a worm on a hook! Life is good, smile and enjoy it while it lasts. But, perhaps the "I told you so"s are a are bit like kicking a man when he's down? The No.1 is back where it belongs, on the nose of the Prancing Horse. Maybe we should leave it at that?

For the McLaren people:
Sucks to be you guys right now and you have my sympathy (well, sort of ;) ). McLaren got caught with their hand in the cookie jar. They have been punished and the matter is at an end. Trying to defend what has become the indefensible will only make it harder for the whole thing to go away. Isn't that what the whole apology was about? Putting and end to Stepney-gate? Max certainly thinks so.

But, if a proverbial make-up kiss is out of the question then go for your lives. Just remember, it's almost Christmas and Christmas is the season to be jolly, is it not? :D

[Valve Bounce]

I guess this has come to the situation where the various statements and releases by McLaren, the FIA and Ferrari are viewed/interpreted from different points of view.

I know at hte beginning of the year I was an avid follower of both McLaren (because of their drivers) as well as Ferrari (because of Kimi). I also have as my prime favourite Super Aguri, no question.

But as thear progressed, while I remained a firm believer of Ron Dennis, this latest episode of their release together with the FIA release has left feeling an utter fool and as a result, I posted above that I no longer follow McLaren.
While some may say this kind of spying and copying has existed in F1 for years, I do not believe that it has been this blatant, with copies of designs enterred into a team's main frames and people asking an opposition chief engineer how their car is setup for a particular track so that they can then copy this setup on their copied suspension.

I fully believe that if any person leaves one team, they can take with them what is in their head and even whatever ideas and research they may have carried out as long as it is not in hard copy.

But to go and copy stuff with another team's logos on the designs is just going way too far, not to mention sending one's wife down to the local copy shop to make copies is just plain blood stupid.

I suppose we can go argueing all this in circles and end up where we started - agreeing to disagree. That's where we are at right now.

[GP-M3]

I'm thinkin he's just trying out for a position at grandprix.com

I'm glad someone else mentioned this. That site has been a Mac appologist for the whole season. He's another one that has lost all credability on this.

Some Mac fans here have had their own version of the McMeaCulpa and have kindly admitted to having egg on their face. A few are holding the party line, that Mac didn't admit anything.

Most of us know it is clear that the Big Mac is in a huge state of groveling... well done boys, you promoted your integrity all year, and what happens at the end.... OOPS.

Now let's move on to next year.

[PSfan]

Or with the a and e around the wrong way! ;) :p


I have my integrity too... Don't wanna look like a McLaren fanatical, specially after the "this is how to spell McLeran" thread Brockman started a few months back :p :

[wmcot]

Of the papers I am reading, it is the only thing the FIA seem to think made it into the 2007 car.

In a legal court, that would be enough for a criminal sentence of guilty followed by a lengthy prison term. You can't rationalize away the theft because "they only used one idea."

Take off the silver blinders and open your mind!

[wmcot]

That quote has nothing to do with evidence found in the investigation, it has to do with McLaren appealing the findings and expecting a reasonable limit.

What findings would they have to appeal if no evidence was found? Why would they want a "reasonable limit" if the design concepts are their own and not stolen?


The boy racers know about using C02 and nitrogen in tires, this is F1!

Apparently not if they had to ask Bridgestone about it!

[ArrowsFA1]

The top of the page quote by PSfan is the most damning wording I can find in the FIA paper, and I've mentioned that pages back in the thread. If the worst they found is that something "appears" to have been influenced by the Ferrari information it leads to think that not much of it actually made it to the car. Since they cleard other systems and noted they were not influenced, I have to think they they dug fairly deep into the design of the car.

That is however more than enough.
Is "appears" really enough - conclusive - after a thorough FIA investigation?

IIRC the wheelbase was another piece of information supposedly used, but Ferrari's longer wheelbase has been a topic of conversation throughout the season. It has been analysed by technical journalists and mentioned during interviews. So it's hardly been a secret. For McLaren, or any other team, to be investigating and developing a longer wheelbase is no big surprise, and would be expected given the performance of the Ferrari this year. And yet this is used as "proof" that McLaren made use of confidential data.

Should another team launch their 2008 car with a longer wheelbase than they had in 2007 will they be charged by the FIA because it "appears" their car has been influenced by Ferrari ideas?

The dangerous precident that truefan72 raises is a very real one, and has greater longer term implications for F1 as a whole than anything else related to this saga.

[Daniel]

Arrows. Can you send me your credit card details please? I'm not going to use them for personal gain or anything. Just interested is all......

[ioan]

I, McClaren, the FIA, and Ferrari have all moved on and accepeted the statement, so let's hope that you guys can as well. :)

You mean we should just accept that McLaren lied and cheated, and lied and cheated again, and than lied again and tried to cheat again next season.
And because they issued a letter where they acknowledge, in not the clearest terms, that they were lying and cheating all the way through the last season, we should excuse them and believe that they will stick to their "liar and cheater" word that they will not try anymore to use the Ferrari IP?! And we should grant them equal foot for the future? Why is that?!

Sorry but I have higher moral standards than those required to accept recidivist cheaters and liars.

[SGWilko]

Is "appears" really enough - conclusive - after a thorough FIA investigation?

IIRC the wheelbase was another piece of information supposedly used, but Ferrari's longer wheelbase has been a topic of conversation throughout the season. It has been analysed by technical journalists and mentioned during interviews. So it's hardly been a secret. For McLaren, or any other team, to be investigating and developing a longer wheelbase is no big surprise, and would be expected given the performance of the Ferrari this year. And yet this is used as "proof" that McLaren made use of confidential data.

Should another team launch their 2008 car with a longer wheelbase than they had in 2007 will they be charged by the FIA because it "appears" their car has been influenced by Ferrari ideas?

The dangerous precident that truefan72 raises is a very real one, and has greater longer term implications for F1 as a whole than anything else related to this saga.

You are spot on about the wheel base, but I am not entirely sure that this is something the FIA specifically 'brought McLaren to task' on. There is a mention somewhere of the fact that this is more than likely to be gleaned from information while the car is in the public domain.

The fast fill? and quick shift trains of development however are a bit fishy. This is the first time there has been any mention of such. (altough Aldo Costa makes reference to a new concept F2008 with an even faster shift).

One thing I don't quite understand however is this. If all the big teams are useing seamless shift, how can you make something that is seamless even quicker? It's a bit like saying I have here some water, but look, this stuff I have designed is even wetter.......

[SGWilko]

Arrows. Can you send me your credit card details please? I'm not going to use them for personal gain or anything. Just interested is all......

Not a very relevant comparison methinks. Do you have a mole working in the Arrows household to supply such info? Because that would then be barking up the right tree........

[OTA]

Arrows, agree with you that F1 hasn't just become rotten. I don't even think it's that rotten anyway. Not even Mac are the new found evil.
But in my opinion, RD claims that his standards were higher than every one elses was not only an unwise move, but a very unfair one to other people. Mac tried to direct the blame in a direction(Stepney, Coughlan and the "Spanish lobby") that was just not the real story.
But regardless, I will still remember 2007 as a great season in which he saw high class driving, and really hope that starts a trend for the years to come. LH, Kimi, Felipe, Alonso, Kubica... are way bigger than spygate and continue to be so.

Cheers
David

[ioan]

One thing I don't quite understand however is this. If all the big teams are useing seamless shift, how can you make something that is seamless even quicker? It's a bit like saying I have here some water, but look, this stuff I have designed is even wetter.......

There is always a bit space for innovation to better every design, the only question is if it's worth the huge costs involved with it.

[leopard]

Acknowledging mistakes would always earn praises, but people will look at this acknowledgment as the panic behavior after their effort to attack Renault decided without result benefiting them subsequent to previous conflicts in a row.

They needn't have performed such accusation but would be better to consolidate the team focusing on the next season. They have good car and good drivers, unless they are by nature a great team but not great enough :D .

[Daniel]

Not a very relevant comparison methinks. Do you have a mole working in the Arrows household to supply such info? Because that would then be barking up the right tree........

Yes. Yes I do. Anyway it's not how the data was acquired. It's the posession of the data in the first place. If McLaren had raised the alarm and said "OMFG someone'e been sending us data and we didn't know!!!!" then perhaps you could take a better view of it all. But at the end of the day there was a coverup within McLaren and any data they used it not going to result in bits of the car that looked like carbon copies of Ferrari parts or had Ferrari stamped on them. I think some people are still waiting for this sort of "proof" before they condemn McLaren for being the cheating idiots they are. That evidence is never going to come out.

[Neil Andrew]

Arrows is quick to accuse me of Character Assasination with regard to my view of Roebuck. I am happy to defend that opinion with detailed facts and figures, but that would be to seriously stray off this thread. Let me just say that I purchased mt first copy of MotorSport, the highly respected UK monthly in May 1961, and have every copy since in my library. I started reading Autosport in the mid 'sixties, and still do so today. I have experienced some of the best, and some of the worst of the UK writers, and I do not think Roebuck was the worst.
I was reading Autsport before Roebuck came on the scene, and I will be reading it in 2008 when he has departed. I have had plenty of time to observe his writing technique, and to form my opinion of it. I stand by that opinion.
You claim that Roebuck "brings perspective" to the situation. Sorry, no it does not. He simply aligns himself with and regurgitates the views of others, more famous than he.
When you quote Roebuck in support of your position, you are simply extending that process of regurgitation.
My Motor Sport embraces much more than the precious, pompous and rarified ambience of F1. I take as much pleasure from a visit to the Monte Carlo stages, as I do from a VSCC Lakeland trial, both of which I have attended in 2007, along with numeous other events. In my view, McLarens' sordid behaviour, I can think of no other more appropriate adjective, has cast a grey cloud over all motor sport, mine and yours.
It is high time that MacLaren truly reinforced their "confession" by taking appropriate action in the form of rolling heads.

A wise man once said that "There are none so blind as those that will not see" He got it right on this occasion.

nca.

[ArrowsFA1]

I was reading Autsport before Roebuck came on the scene, and I will be reading it in 2008 when he has departed. I have had plenty of time to observe his writing technique, and to form my opinion of it. I stand by that opinion.
That's fair enough :up:

[Robinho]

my 3 and a half pence?

i stood by Ron and McLaren initially, i chose to believe the reports that they gave us that this was nothing more than a misguided employee. i still chose to believe that after the initial hearing that being found guilty of possession but no proof of use was probably the right decision. the follow up investigation, fine, points sanctions etc i initially thought were harsh, but not without some merit, given the increased involvment indicated by the emails etc, but i still chose to belive reports that this was it, especially as it appeared Ron had turned whistle blower himself.

it is with some unease that i have read the latest findings and open letter from McLaren, and whilst i would have comended the content for its honesty if it had come out at the start of this affair i can't help but think it was more of a face saving exaercise, or indeed a behind the scenes forced punishment.

i won't condone the fact that McLaren had the data, that they certainly seem to have tried to use it, nor the fact they also seemingly lied about how deep it went. i'm still unsure who actually was aware within McLaren, and despite my misgivings i'll still probably root for them this year, partially because they are home to 2 of the most exciting talents in F1 at the moment, and partially because if they are not clean now after the affair then they are even more incredibly stupid than they wree for the cheating in the 1st place, as they will never have a spotlight on them more focussed than now, and quite rightly so.

Punishments have been handed out, and now they seem not as harsh as at first, what i hope is that the example that has been made makes everyone take a little more care, i don't for a minute think this is something that has only happened this year or has been confined to McLaren, however this is possibly the worst infringement of its type, and certainly the most blatant when confronted with the evidence. i hope this can be the end of it and that things move on to focus back on the racing - although i don't expect some people to forgive and forget too quickly, and i wouldn't blame them, i hope they can show more restraint than some who have pointed fingers in the opposite direction in the past.

i'll be interested how the sport and McLaren in particular come back from this, and i will be cautoius in defending anyone faced with any accusations with any basis in the future. I'm glad Kimi won, i'd love to see Lewis win a championship, and not one that would have been so disputable after the event. proof if you needed it that cheaters never prosper - no points, no money and no dignity to end the season with

ultimately i am glad that i am more of a fan of drivers rather than teams, as if i was a dyed in the wool McLaren supporter i would be feeling decidedly let down (but i get enough of that being a Luton Town fan!)

roll on 2008

[Bagwan]

Arrows , though the length of the Ferrari wheelbase was different to the McLaren , the reference to the "mole at Ferrari" and answer being "to the mm" was a key to showing the culture of deceit .
"Mole" says so much in one word , and it was a word used by McLaren .
And "to the mm" implies it was more accurate than could be had from public domain .

It would be a staggering task to look through 1.4 terabytes of data , but if one did searches for key words , it might narrow things down a bit .
Could one of these words have been "mole" ?

That would seem to be too simple , but could be true .
It would also seem to be too stupid to be true , but , if we think back to where this all started , with the highly implausable story of Trudy at the copy shop , we can see this as par for the course .

The Trudy aspect of all this is one fact that still points to Ron having not known in the beginning .

[markabilly]

Question is have Mac learned their lesson, and will go and sin no more after the 100 million hit?

Of course they have and so should anyone popped for 100 million, which is why, knowing full well this inspection was coming, the 2008 Mac was found to be clean and beyond any reproach. It would really require arrogance in extremis and believing your own BS as being invincible to try to sneak any cheating past such scrutiny, especially knowing the promised penalty for 2008 if caught.

Or so the normal, non-kool aid drinker would think................................if they did not learn their lesson after paying 100 million, then the word is "incorrigble" as in three time loser, and what are they doing going punishment-free when caught again, actively using the material?

Seems Mac is off the hook AGAIN, and who has not noticed a strange quiet about the Renault no-punishment......

Is "appears" really enough - conclusive - after a thorough FIA investigation?


Yes, as it is in a court of law when no other explanation is considered as likely when offered as a defence. It is known as "Beyond reasonable doubt" and is how every civilised legal system works.

More so, the FIA report does say that the wheelbase dimensions of the 2008 Mclaren cannot be proven to have come from info fed by their 'mole'.

Please note, since you are apparently ignoring this vital part of the report, the FIA report states - "We have not been presented with a convincing explanation to displace the impression given by the documents"

In other words, it is beyond reasonable doubt.

Strange isn't it how you didn't cherry-pick that statement?

[ioan]

Sometimes I have the impression that Arrows is Ron Dennis' counselor, or even Ron himself.
One can easily draw a parallel between how both behave in this case.

[airshifter]

In a legal court, that would be enough for a criminal sentence of guilty followed by a lengthy prison term. You can't rationalize away the theft because "they only used one idea."

Take off the silver blinders and open your mind!

The very same "court" as it may be in this case, authorized the use of that system in races.

As for the appeal, if they are unhappy with the findings they will appeal them, just as with a court of law. Of course we know innocent people go to prison, even though the legal system is much more intense than the FIA investigation.

I'm glad Ferrari and Kimi won, my sig has been the same all seaon in that regards.


But I know personally I wouldn't want to go to prison based on something it "appeared" I did wrong.

[PSfan]

Is "appears" really enough - conclusive - after a thorough FIA investigation?

IIRC the wheelbase was another piece of information supposedly used, but Ferrari's longer wheelbase has been a topic of conversation throughout the season. It has been analysed by technical journalists and mentioned during interviews. So it's hardly been a secret. For McLaren, or any other team, to be investigating and developing a longer wheelbase is no big surprise, and would be expected given the performance of the Ferrari this year. And yet this is used as "proof" that McLaren made use of confidential data.

Should another team launch their 2008 car with a longer wheelbase than they had in 2007 will they be charged by the FIA because it "appears" their car has been influenced by Ferrari ideas?

it "appears" you haven't read the FIA findings either:

107.3 Although the McLaren wheelbase is longer on the 2008 car and we have concluded that McLaren took account of confidential Ferrari information relating to wheelbase length, we cannot conclude with certainty whether the decision to lengthen the McLaren wheelbase for 2008 was, in any part, as a result of receipt of confidential Ferrari information, or whether it was wholly as a result of review of publicly available information and/or McLaren's own research and development.

I brought up the "wheelbase" angle to put to rest the notion that this spygate BS has always been happening in F1. Sure you have listening in on radio's, taking pictures, hiring ex-employees of rivals, these cannot be policed by the FIA and so they don't. Possessing documents, and uploading them onto computers can be. Had McLaren been able to prove that the wheelbase was based photographs (A subject McLaren fanatics point to suggesting "spying is a part of F1... look at all the photographers") It would be a non-issue. I was simply pointing out that the FIA doesn't see this as Illegal.


The dangerous precident that truefan72 raises is a very real one, and has greater longer term implications for F1 as a whole than anything else related to this saga.

Did you noticed the anti-FIA propaganda up on grandprix.com? Yup, FIA hadn't released the Renault decision transcripts!!! And why should they? I don't believe they released any for the July Decision either.

for a refresher, from the grandprix.com:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The WMSC is satisfied that Vodafone McLaren Mercedes was in possession of confidential Ferrari information and is therefore in breach of article 151c of the International Sporting Code. However, there is insufficient evidence that this information was used in such a way as to interfere improperly with the FIA Formula One World Championship. We therefore impose no penalty."

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19454.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

And here is the jest of the Renault decision:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
11. Decision

11.1. For the foregoing reasons, the WMSC:

11.1.1. finds Renault in breach of Article 151(c) of the International Sporting Code,

11.1.2. imposes no penalty due to the lack of evidence that the Championship has been affected.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19919.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The suggestion of the FIA coming down harder on McLaren is, absurd. And while I'm of the opinion that the FIA has been way to soft on the teams regarding this spygate drama. I can respect the Renault decision based on precedent, and I can also respect the July Mclaren decision based on "not wanting to influence the championship based on the information at the time.

However, based on what we know now. 100mil hardly touches the surface as to what I think the team deserves after what has come to light.

I would also like to remind that McLaren can gain an advantage from the Ferrari data, and not have to make 1 alteration to their own car! Australia is proof!!! (Shame for McLaren that they too had to make alterations to their car to pass the new floor tests.)

[wmcot]

The very same "court" as it may be in this case, authorized the use of that system in races.


Yes, the authorized it as a legal (read raceable) system and we're not arguing about that. The problem is that Charlie Whiting didn't have the FIA investigators at the time to see where the design originated! Yes, it is a raceable system according to the specs, but it is a stolen system!

Did anyone think McLaren would steal and use an unraceable system?

[wmcot]

But at the end of the day there was a coverup within McLaren and any data they used it not going to result in bits of the car that looked like carbon copies of Ferrari parts or had Ferrari stamped on them. I think some people are still waiting for this sort of "proof" before they condemn McLaren for being the cheating idiots they are. That evidence is never going to come out.

Even if the 2008 McLaren was found to be a complete Ferrari F2008 painted silver, there would still be McFanatics defending them! (And RD would still be claiming "integrity")

[PSfan]

The very same "court" as it may be in this case, authorized the use of that system in races.

Hmmmm, so Charlie Whiting is a "court" now? when did that happen? Oh and since your "appear" to be priciledged in these types of matters, what did the FIA mean in regards to "granted on a without prejudice basis."


As for the appeal, if they are unhappy with the findings they will appeal them, just as with a court of law. Of course we know innocent people go to prison, even though the legal system is much more intense than the FIA investigation.

While "appears" does show up in the FIA finding... "without a doubt" and "we have concluded has also.

No, McLaren can't appeal the findings. if they didn't like them... they could have waited till the Feb. hearings, and disproved them. Did they go that route? NO, because they know they are guilty, and knew that at that stage they would most likely have been tossed out!!!

[markabilly]

Mac is not a mere liar, they are cowardly liars, too afraid to state the truth about their intentions when they appealled the fuel temp stuff and when caught red-handed, cheating again, the best they can do is to whimper, while escaping the noose......they just need to paint a yellow stripe down their back

Bruce deserved far better than to have his name associated with "mac" and RD

[wmcot]

Bruce deserved far better than to have his name associated with "mac" and RD

Amen to that! I wonder if any heirs of Bruce McLaren can sue RD for tarnishing the name? Maybe they could force the team to change to McDennis.

[Bagwan]

Hey , isn't this the off season ?

Isn't the name of this team , Vodaphone McLaren Mercedes ?

Lewis Hamilton drives for them , doesn't he ?

Can we get on with the customer car debate ?
There isn't much time .

Dust it off , kids . The public is watching .

[airshifter]

Hmmmm, so Charlie Whiting is a "court" now? when did that happen? Oh and since your "appear" to be priciledged in these types of matters, what did the FIA mean in regards to "granted on a without prejudice basis."



While "appears" does show up in the FIA finding... "without a doubt" and "we have concluded has also.

No, McLaren can't appeal the findings. if they didn't like them... they could have waited till the Feb. hearings, and disproved them. Did they go that route? NO, because they know they are guilty, and knew that at that stage they would most likely have been tossed out!!!


Without predudice is a simple term, and my point is that in spite of the investigation, it was approved for use at that point. After complete examination, they could only conclude with what "appears" to have happened.

And in the same sentence that the words "we have concluded" is also "we cannot conclude with certainty" which in simple terms means they don't know.



Without the other quote in question, I can't comment on it.


I think it's rather comical that people are so irate about this discussion that they get to the point of obsessed and insulting of any other opinion. Although I didn't want McLaren to win this year, I have viewed the incidents without prejudices against them, and would expect them to have the same "rights" in a hearing as would any other team.

We could disquality McLaren for 5 years, which would probably result in 5 years of Ferrari dominance. At this point with their car subject to inspection for systems using the Ferrari data, I think the FIA will police that issue well. Otherwise this same thing happens next year, or just as possible the precedent set allows other teams to be DQ'd or suffer heavy fines based on inconclusive data.

[Big Ben]

I had the sensation that this letter has been written just to close the matter once and for all. Maybe they realized that their isn't much reason to keep fighting.
So just admit whatever they want to hear and move on... It couldn't have got any better if they had continued the same way.

Maybe they realized that their isn't much reason to keep fighting.


More like they'd shot themselves in the foot.

[ioan]

Even if the 2008 McLaren was found to be a complete Ferrari F2008 painted silver, there would still be McFanatics defending them! (And RD would still be claiming "integrity")

There is no doubt about that.

[ioan]

Without predudice is a simple term, and my point is that in spite of the investigation, it was approved for use at that point.

What investigation? There was no investigation about the provenience of the system at that moment.

"without prejudice" might be a simple term but it is still meaningful.

[Valve Bounce]

Yes, as it is in a court of law when no other explanation is considered as likely when offered as a defence. It is known as "Beyond reasonable doubt" and is how every civilised legal system works.

?

I would say more like :"On the balance of probabilities" based the facts presented/released rather than beyond reasonable doubt. I suspect that we still don't know much of the facts found.

[ArrowsFA1]

it "appears" you haven't read the FIA findings either:

107.3 Although the McLaren wheelbase is longer on the 2008 car and we have concluded that McLaren took account of confidential Ferrari information relating to wheelbase length, we cannot conclude with certainty whether the decision to lengthen the McLaren wheelbase for 2008 was, in any part, as a result of receipt of confidential Ferrari information, or whether it was wholly as a result of review of publicly available information and/or McLaren's own research and development.
So in other words the FIA had no evidence ("we cannot conclude with certainty") to suggest that Ferrari information relating to the wheelbase was used.

[AJP]

There is no doubt about that.

Just like you would defend Ferrari...and don't deny it... ;)

[ioan]

Just like you would defend Ferrari...and don't deny it... ;)

If they were in such deep $hit as McL&C are now? Don't think so.

[pino]

If they were in such deep $hit as McL&C are now? Don't think so.

I don't believe you :p :

[ioan]

I don't believe you :p :

You $£*&^%$"£$%&^*&^$%£ ! :p : ;)

[AJP]

I don't believe you :p :

neither do I.

[ioan]

What use is there to try to convince you? :p :
I can just hope I won't be put into the McC&L fans position. :D

[AJP]

What use is there to try to convince you? :p :
I can just hope I won't be put into the McC&L fans position. :D

That shouldn't happen with FIA and Ferrari being such good buddies... ;)

just kidding...sort of.

[tinchote]

One thing I don't quite understand however is this. If all the big teams are useing seamless shift, how can you make something that is seamless even quicker? It's a bit like saying I have here some water, but look, this stuff I have designed is even wetter.......

if you look at any onboard footing from this year, you see the revs changing a lot when shifting. So there's certainly no "seamless shift" in absolute terms (which is forbidden, by the way). They probably call "seamless" a system that smoothes/speeds the shifting, and it probably lacks gears in the traditional sense?

[SGWilko]

if you look at any onboard footing from this year, you see the revs changing a lot when shifting. So there's certainly no "seamless shift" in absolute terms (which is forbidden, by the way). They probably call "seamless" a system that smoothes/speeds the shifting, and it probably lacks gears in the traditional sense?

Indeed, but you are describing CVT there methinks. Seeless (to me) means no loss of drive between shifts. I thought that had been achieved through pre engaging the next set of cogs on a seperate shaft.

When these things go wrong, it is a watchmaker you need, not a mechanic!!!!!

CVT and the whole idea behind it is not allowed (quite why is beyond me, because it would aid fuel efficiency by keeping the motor at optimum revs at all times).

So in other words the FIA had no evidence ("we cannot conclude with certainty") to suggest that Ferrari information relating to the wheelbase was used.

Nor does the FIA report say it was.

But it does state -

"Mclarens insistence before the WMSC that Coughlan only had a functional design role at Mclaren is not backed up by documents or interviews. He played a leadership role, among others, in the brake strategy for Mclaren for the 2007 & 2008 cars"

FIA also have plenty of evidence that a whole lot more Mclaren engineers were party to the stream of info coming illegally from Maranello than was claimed by the Mclaren management, do they not?

Therefore, what the FIA report did show was that Ron Dennis's public assertion that Mike Coughlan was not involved in development of the 2007 car was a blatant lie.

How you can not pass judgement on that, when you are quick to reprimand the FIA for their failings is, quite simply, an astonishing piece of bias.

[tinchote]

Indeed, but you are describing CVT there methinks. Seeless (to me) means no loss of drive between shifts. I thought that had been achieved through pre engaging the next set of cogs on a seperate shaft.

When these things go wrong, it is a watchmaker you need, not a mechanic!!!!!

CVT and the whole idea behind it is not allowed (quite why is beyond me, because it would aid fuel efficiency by keeping the motor at optimum revs at all times).

You are right, my bad. Still, I'm not sure whether a perfect shifting is possible.

Anyway, CVT would be terrible, with all the engines at constant revs :eek:

[wmcot]

You are right, my bad. Still, I'm not sure whether a perfect shifting is possible.

Anyway, CVT would be terrible, with all the engines at constant revs :eek:


CVT would make things interesting since we hear teams now talking about the strain on the engines from tracks that require more full-power time. With a CVT, the engine would have to be designed to give full power 100% of the time. That would make engine design and cooling very interesting.

I know this is OT for the thread, but the thread is beginning to turn into another Ferrari bashing one so I thought I'd go a different direction.

[BDunnell]

I find what has happened in this last couple of weeks or so very difficult to understand, and it has made me adjust my view of the whole affair somewhat.

McLaren admit that the Ferrari data was more widely disseminated than they believed, so the FIA decide the matter is closed. In one sense, I am glad the matter is closed, because it has generated a great deal of highly unpleasant comment, brought out the worst here in a lot of people who call themselves F1 'fans', and has diverted attention away from the racing. However, I am very uncomfortable with this ending the matter in the eyes of the FIA, because further wrongdoing has been admitted, which they ought to act on. I have said all along that the original punishment against McLaren was absurd — either they should have had no points taken away at all, or they should have been excluded from both championships. The 'half and half' measure was a fudge (though I should add that this does NOT mean I believe it to be a conspiracy). Previously, I came down on the side of no punishment being necessary, because it appeared as if the information had not gone too far into the team. Now, we know it has, and I feel the FIA should retrospectively exclude the McLaren drivers from the 2007 drivers' championship — and recalculate race results, everyone else's points, etc, if necessary. It will never be possible to prove one way or another whether the Ferrari data was any aid to McLaren, and everything points to it having been of little use. But now the team has admitted the wider dissemination of the data, I feel dissatisfied with the action taken.

I also remain deeply dissatisfied with the FIA's handling of the whole affair, which has been botched from start to apparent finish. It isn't just McLaren's own investigation which has been shown to have been inadequate, but the FIA's. The same goes for the Renault case, because the precedent set by the McLaren affair proved, because of the inadequacy of the FIA's initial proceedings, to set a useless precedent which nonetheless had to be abided by second time around in the name of some consistency. It is ridiculous that Renault went unpunished for the same offence because no 'extra evidence' ended up being presented in the same way it was in the McLaren case. Either the evidence was there after the initial investigation or it wasn't. The two were, after all, virtually identical in most respects.

So, McLaren end up looking pretty grubby, Renault likewise, and also the FIA. Add to that the fact that we still don't know the truth about Ferrari, Stepney and the 'white powder', and it's all very depressing. And what will it mean for the future? Will there be a spate of further 'spy scandals' whenever teams believe that a former employee has 'taken secrets with them', which we all know happens all the time, albeit to lesser degrees than in these cases?

[truefan72]

I guess the FIA have officially closed the matter, so let's get on with 2008 now lads. any more speculation, suppositon or back and forth will only serve to cause indigestion, and animosity.

[markabilly]

I guess the FIA have officially closed the matter, so let's get on with 2008 now lads. any more speculation, suppositon or back and forth will only serve to cause indigestion, and animosity.

Well of course that is what any supporter of Mac and Hamster would say.... keep drinkin the kool aid :beer:

And the investigations only demonstrate what a lying bunch of people make up Mac, and if supporting a team because of what it stands for and being something the fans identify with, then that reflects that identity as being the same for fans.

It also demonstrates that the FIA operates at the level of pro westling, where rules are for entertainment only and generating revenue, and not for sportsmanship. :down: :down:

Mac never should have walked at the first hearing, and neither should renault, although renault, after reading the transcript, can point to being less dishonest than mac, indeed, mac was blantly lying out the rear, and everyone knows it and lying about it does not change it. But confessions to crime do not mandate immunity!!!!


It was only thanks to Hamilton managing to set off FA, WHO AFTER LOSING FIVE GRID PLACES BECAUSE OF HIS TEAM MATE'S PROTEST, BLOWS AT RD,with just a veiled threat that scared RD so bad, he was on the phone to Max immediately. When the evidence reveals the role played by MC as the cheif designer for 2008, not merely some rogue employee off all by himself, and the fact that this was also lied about by Mac, and when mac files an appeal to take the WDC for Hamilton while lying about that, well just when has Mac not lied?

I guess when RD said "we were racing against Alsonso"

:grenade:

What a joke!!!!!

So identify and root for mac all any fan wants, and what that says about such fans, should be clear :vader:

[leopard]

Wondering what have motivated McLrn brought Renault the legal action for the case that wasn't fresh anymore. Guess that they were only looking for friend to be at the same boat as them, being fined and penalized. I doubt that they would still do that if only the won the WDC and WCC and won on spy scandal against Ferrari, unlikely.

All parties should respect the decision, with the statement asking for forgiveness it doesn't seem McLaren to open the case again, like Ferrari did after Mclaren was sentenced free in July.

So, let's see this as a positive give them clean slate that they will not do anything crap in the future.

[SGWilko]

Well of course that is what any supporter of Mac and Hamster would say.... keep drinkin the kool aid :beer:

And the investigations only demonstrate what a lying bunch of people make up Mac, and if supporting a team because of what it stands for and being something the fans identify with, then that reflects that identity as being the same for fans.

It also demonstrates that the FIA operates at the level of pro westling, where rules are for entertainment only and generating revenue, and not for sportsmanship. :down:

Mac never should have walked at the first hearing, and neither should renault, although renault, after reading the transcript, can point to being less dishonest than mac, indeed, mac was blantly lying out the rear, and everyone knows it and lying about it does not change it. But confessions to crime do not mandate immunity!!!!


It was only thanks to Hamilton managing to set off FA, WHO AFTER LOSING FIVE GRID PLACES BECAUSE OF HIS TEAM MATE'S PROTEST, BLOWS AT RD,with just a veiled threat that scared RD so bad, he was on the phone to Max immediately. When the evidence reveals the role played by MC as the cheif designer for 2008, not merely some rogue employee off all by himself, and the fact that this was also lied about by Mac, and when mac files an appeal to take the WDC for Hamilton while lying about that, well just when has Mac not lied?

I guess when RD said "we were racing against Alsonso"

:grenade:

What a joke!!!!!

So identify and root for mac all any fan wants, and what that says about such fans, should be clear :vader:

Come on now, it's time to put it to rest. You sound like a record on which the needle has stuck.

We know your views. We respect that. But don't keep ramming them down everyones throats because it becomes tiresome.

It happened, it was dealt with. It may not be to your satisfaction, but that's it.

Move on, or you will just end up bickering endlessly. Rise above it.

Have a glass of tap water, and chill....... ;)

[Valve Bounce]

It is time for all of us to move on. Unfortunately, there is nothing to move to :( with the next GP 3 months away :(
Personally, I am just sick and tired of this whole schemozzle.

Come on now, it's time to put it to rest.

Although it might surprise some people, given my Tifosi membership, I have to agree.*

Those on this forum who have been proven wrong and have had the grace to admit it, I admire.

Those who have been proven wrong but do not have the grace to admit it are not worth considering. Their integrity is forever shot to pieces and their future pronouncements not worth consideration.

That seems to be the state of play now, so I for one am happy to let that be the final reckoning.




*With the proviso that if ever again anyone paints Mclaren to be Saints and Ferrari to be Sinners, those of us with Scarlet allegiances are free to bring up this shameful affair.

[Daniel]

Amen to that :)

Respect to the people who admitted they were wrong and disrespect to the people who continue on as if McChicken are the victims in this who episode :)

[pino]

Come on now, it's time to put it to rest...

I agree...Merry Christmas to everyone :D