DC against tire warmer ban

[ioan]

Coulthard has serious concerns that the outlawing of tyre warmers, due to come into force from the start of 2009, will have serious safety implications. Slick tyres are also expected to return to F1 in 2009, although the move is yet to be confirmed.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64353

[Valve Bounce]

It makes a lot of sense. I'm sure that the cornering ability of a car from the pits on cold tyres would be much slower than when the tyres are warm. This could result in accidents.

[SGWilko]

When did tyre warming begin. Can Bridgestone make tyres to pre warmer specification? That would help.

As an aside, did anyone see Richard 'jet car' Hammond on TG in the Renault F1, and the problem he had with tyre warming......

[wedge]

Montoya never had a problem with cold tyres in Champcar

[SGWilko]

Montoya never had a problem with cold tyres in Champcar

Different tyres in adifferent series perhaps? There are issues with pressures at cold temps with todays F1 tyres, so DC has a valid point. But, if you know you are going to start on 'coldies' then you put more pressure in? But that is not practical, because when up to temp, the profile of the contact patch will change due to increased tyre pressure.

Doh.

[ioan]

Montoya never had a problem with cold tyres in Champcar

Maybe that's why he left F1 and went back to US! :p :

[markabilly]

The biggest problem with cold tires related to clearnace beneath the car, where the car could bottom out and cause a complete loss of control, as per the explanation given by manny for Senna's accident. However, with sufficient clearance, this would not be a problem

[gjalie]

DC is getting old, and it seems he is just driving to earn a few million dollars till his retirement, so everything thats makes driving a F1 car more difficult he is against it. maybe he's afraid his driving abilety's come to show and it isn't what is used to be.

[wedge]

The biggest problem with cold tires related to clearnace beneath the car, where the car could bottom out and cause a complete loss of control, as per the explanation given by manny for Senna's accident. However, with sufficient clearance, this would not be a problem

Post-Senna, that's why we now have the wooden plank to regulate regulate ride-height.

[Roamy]

Stick a fork in this guy - He is done. When you become afraid of everything it is time to step out of the seat. !!!

[Dave B]

Oh please. There's a gulf of difference between "being afraid" and having genuine safety concerns. Ever since Jackie Stewart, the smarter drivers have been working constructively with the governing bodies to minimise the risk of danger to themselves, track officials and spectators.

As an experienced (to put it lightly!) driver, DC has a right to express his opinion if he believes safety can be improved.

[wedge]

Oh please. There's a gulf of difference between "being afraid" and having genuine safety concerns. Ever since Jackie Stewart, the smarter drivers have been working constructively with the governing bodies to minimise the risk of danger to themselves, track officials and spectators.

As an experienced (to put it lightly!) driver, DC has a right to express his opinion if he believes safety can be improved.

And there are people who would agree with Stirling Moss that racing should have an element of 'risk' and 'danger'.

[Dave B]

Racing will always have a risk, and anybody who straps themselves into an F1 car has a level of bravery (or stupidity!) far higher than those of us who watch it.

However all risks can be managed, and if banning tyre warmers would introduce an unacceptable extra danger for no good reason then DC is right to speak out.

[Bagwan]

"Unacceptable extra danger" ?
What the hell ?

DC , that was an outright pussy statement .

Safety , my ass .
Call it opportunity to get a pass in . There used to be a significant element of time when you were a sitting duck after a stop , and you had to put that into your strategy .

Someone mentioned Montoya in Champcar . The mere fact that skill on cold tires was lauded and remembered for this thread shows the importance of getting rid of the warmers .
A few corners around the lap these days in F1 has you out of trouble with anyone behind .
With tire warmers , we'll never find out who can handle a slippery car .

DC , you'll have to drive a little slower and more carefully for a lap or 2 . I know you can handle that .
And , when you find yourself behind someone just out of pitlane , just think how nice the feeling will be as you sail past them as they try to defend against your high temperature rubber .

[SGWilko]

"Unacceptable extra danger" ?
What the hell ?

DC , that was an outright pussy statement .

Safety , my ass .
Call it opportunity to get a pass in . There used to be a significant element of time when you were a sitting duck after a stop , and you had to put that into your strategy .

Someone mentioned Montoya in Champcar . The mere fact that skill on cold tires was lauded and remembered for this thread shows the importance of getting rid of the warmers .
A few corners around the lap these days in F1 has you out of trouble with anyone behind .
With tire warmers , we'll never find out who can handle a slippery car .

DC , you'll have to drive a little slower and more carefully for a lap or 2 . I know you can handle that .
And , when you find yourself behind someone just out of pitlane , just think how nice the feeling will be as you sail past them as they try to defend against your high temperature rubber .

I feel you are missing the point, that the differencial between cold tyre pressures (and hence ride height) and race temp tyre pressures (greater ride height). Now, when last we had no tyre warming (can't quite remember, sometime in the eighties methinks) there was not 'step' on the car floor. Now there is, and this, for all intents and purposes, worked in conjunction with cold tyres to cause Ayrton to bottom out at Tamburello (not the poster, the corner!!) and lose control of the car.

Now, if your conscience tells you you are happy to actually want to re-create such a scenario, after every pit stop, start etc, the fine, but I think there is a genuine safety issue here.

Maybe DC is a pussy, but that is infinately better than being a dead or paralised pussy, isn't it?

And please, no necrafile comments please.....

;)

[Colin]

So lift the cars! Yes it will raise them more when the tires come up to temp, and yes this will reduce downforce. Big deal, it's the same for everybody.

It will make for better racing. The driver who can handle his car best on cold tires, will excel and isn't this what we want?

[Easy Drifter]

With todays mix of gasses used for the tires there is little or no expansion. The problem is simply lack of grip till they warm up the compound. All the teams have warmers so it is not a cost factor. It will just be more stuff into the landfill.
An interesting senario for pit stops.

[Bagwan]

I feel you are missing the point, that the differencial between cold tyre pressures (and hence ride height) and race temp tyre pressures (greater ride height). Now, when last we had no tyre warming (can't quite remember, sometime in the eighties methinks) there was not 'step' on the car floor. Now there is, and this, for all intents and purposes, worked in conjunction with cold tyres to cause Ayrton to bottom out at Tamburello (not the poster, the corner!!) and lose control of the car.

Now, if your conscience tells you you are happy to actually want to re-create such a scenario, after every pit stop, start etc, the fine, but I think there is a genuine safety issue here.

Maybe DC is a pussy, but that is infinately better than being a dead or paralised pussy, isn't it?

And please, no necrafile comments please.....

;)

Don't play the Ayrton card on me .
But for a stray suspension part , he would be with us .

You don't metallic skid plates firing sparks all over the place because you have a legality plank . And the plank thickness hasn't been an issue for anyone lately , so I think they'd likely be able to handle it just fine .

DC spoke about a 2 second difference between cars on cold and hot rubber .
On a track of 20 corners , it is a tenth in each . Big deal .

What IS a big deal is that it might facilitate a pass or 2 in the series , as that tenth is in those corners , and not on the straights .


In relation to Ayrton's time , which DC should remember , F1 is far and away a safer sport in which to drive .
With technology taking a far bigger role , they will know to to frighteningly fine tolerance , just how much those skins will expand , and make the same call Ayrton and Clear made all those years ago .
But , they won't risk disqualification with a worn plank .

[Storm]

So on cold tires they will have to have a degree of caution before getting on the limit or trying to pass and outbrake another car...so be it! It will be the same for everybody and actually probably add more overtaking to the sport because of cars tip-toeing after a pit stop.

[markabilly]

I wonder?? If no tires warmers.....Will we now have air temp check for tires, both surface and interior air or gas, the same as a temp check for fuel...and probably just as messed up....??????????????
to keep everyone honest--????

??

The real shame is we must rely on pit stops for meaningful passes already, and to add to that, we create more opportunity by adding cold tires to enhance passing for that one or two corners.......sort of like putting a bandage on the neck of someone who has been decapitated in my opinion

[ioan]

The real shame is we must rely on pit stops for meaningful passes already, and to add to that, we create more opportunity by adding cold tires to enhance passing for that one or two corners.......sort of like putting a bandage on the neck of someone who has been decapitated in my opinion

Right on it, it is only a new way to produce artificial racing without directly addressing the cause of the lack of overtaking.

[wedge]

I wonder?? If no tires warmers.....Will we now have air temp check for tires, both surface and interior air or gas, the same as a temp check for fuel...and probably just as messed up....??????????????
to keep everyone honest--????

??

The real shame is we must rely on pit stops for meaningful passes already, and to add to that, we create more opportunity by adding cold tires to enhance passing for that one or two corners.......sort of like putting a bandage on the neck of someone who has been decapitated in my opinion

Every little bit helps!

I had a love/hate relationship regarding JPM in Champcars. For all his arrogance I couldn't help but appreciate and marvel at his skill on his outlaps. He made everyone look stupid during the pit cycles. His car control was stunning because of power oversteer due to low tyre temp.

That's what's been missing in F1. Seeing cars sliding and on the knife edge.

[SparkyKate]

Im finding this thread abit odd really.

DC is one of the leading figures within the Drivers association and as such would not say anything that others were not thinking. He, with the likes of Schumi, has had a big drive on safety recently, because they dont think they should die in a race car IF IT CAN BE HELPED. They take on the possibility of death by getting in the car, but you think that they should drop something that at the very least makes them feel safer because they should be better and more talented racers and it looks better for us? Thats a bit like saying 'hey, ur a top class rock climber, so you shouldnt be using that guide rope, you should do it the 'dangerous way' cos thats more exciting for us spectators down here on the ground.'

Driving a car of that power and set-up on such cold tyres would be the same as skating around on an ice rink for the first few laps. That doesnt mean more over-taking possibilities or a better spectacle that makes it more like watching someone on ice skates for the first time, clumsy and liable to fall on their face. Why do people want to watch that? Frankly i watch TopGear for my fill of cocking about, not F1. I want fast and hard fought racing thankyou all the same, i do not want to be watching the clean up crew trundling along for the first few laps.

I do understand that F1 can be mind-dumbingly dull at times, but getting rid of silly little things that help the driver keep safe is not the way to go. You saw what happened to Hamilton when his tyres went bald, as funny as that was even that would get dull after a while. Same with aqua-plaining, it may be a highlight of some races, but all the time? Really? No, sorry, I can think of about a hundred different ways to make the racing more exciting, but unfortunately that would mean reversing half the bone-head decisions the FIA has made in the last few years.

(As for likening the tyres of an F1 car to the cars Montoya now drives, are u mad? The cars are completely different, the set-ups are completely different, and pretty much like your car at home, no they do not depend so much on the temperature of the tyres, because they are more basic and rely on a different kind of driver skill, not a better one.)

[Valve Bounce]

With todays mix of gasses used for the tires there is little or no expansion. The problem is simply lack of grip till they warm up the compound. All the teams have warmers so it is not a cost factor. It will just be more stuff into the landfill.
An interesting senario for pit stops.

You obviously did not do your physics homework, did you!! Here's Charles Law :http://members.aol.com/profchm/charles.html and here's Boyles Law. http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/aboyle.html Just combine the two. OK??
Which I hope will help you with your exams next year.

However, I do have a proposal which could overcome this problem very effectively: invent a pressure sensitive tyre valve that will release air from a tyre at a pre-determined pressure; so you fill the tyre up to running pressure, then as the gas expands/pressure increases with temperature increase, the gas is released by the valve to maintain the set pressure. You can work all this out with a combination of Boyles Law and Charles law, OK??

However, it must be recognised that this will not work with a tyre cooling down as in a Safety Car situation on a wet track; but once the cars speed up and the tyres warm up to working temperatures, the pre-set pressure will be reached again.

[Valve Bounce]

Let's face it DC is no wimp as we witnessed when he raced immediately after that helicopter crash.

[jso1985]

For once I think DC is right.

It's an artificial measure to enhance racing and it's threat to safery at the same time

[grantb4]

Couldn't they just lower the allowable temps in the tyre warmers?

[Ari]

Agree with DC on this one. Really, tyre-warmers are just a safety thing. Going out with cold tyres when you dont necessarily have to is not a good idea.

[ShiftingGears]

Contrived and dumb idea, I agree with DC.

[Garry Walker]

And there are people who would agree with Stirling Moss that racing should have an element of 'risk' and 'danger'.

I am one of those.
I also think DC is right to speak out. After all, it is his neck and the neck of his co-drivers on line when they are going at 200 mph.

I also agree with Valve, DC is no wimp. No guy who goes into a F1 car and drives it full speed is a wimp.

I, btw, do not agree with DC and think the tyre warmers should go. But it is very easy to take such an opinion when you are watching it all only on TV and not having to actually be in the car, exposed to the danger.

[Easy Drifter]

Valve: The only way I passed physics was that they wanted me as a defensive end on the football team. Even then 50% was a real stretch.
However certain gasses do not expand nearly as much as air when subjected to the amount of heat increase developed in a racing tire. This is from actual experience using, if my feeble memory is correct, nitrogen. We had negligible expansion as opposed to compressed air.

[airshifter]

Im finding this thread abit odd really.

DC is one of the leading figures within the Drivers association and as such would not say anything that others were not thinking. He, with the likes of Schumi, has had a big drive on safety recently, because they dont think they should die in a race car IF IT CAN BE HELPED. They take on the possibility of death by getting in the car, but you think that they should drop something that at the very least makes them feel safer because they should be better and more talented racers and it looks better for us? Thats a bit like saying 'hey, ur a top class rock climber, so you shouldnt be using that guide rope, you should do it the 'dangerous way' cos thats more exciting for us spectators down here on the ground.'

Driving a car of that power and set-up on such cold tyres would be the same as skating around on an ice rink for the first few laps. That doesnt mean more over-taking possibilities or a better spectacle that makes it more like watching someone on ice skates for the first time, clumsy and liable to fall on their face. Why do people want to watch that? Frankly i watch TopGear for my fill of cocking about, not F1. I want fast and hard fought racing thankyou all the same, i do not want to be watching the clean up crew trundling along for the first few laps.

I do understand that F1 can be mind-dumbingly dull at times, but getting rid of silly little things that help the driver keep safe is not the way to go. You saw what happened to Hamilton when his tyres went bald, as funny as that was even that would get dull after a while. Same with aqua-plaining, it may be a highlight of some races, but all the time? Really? No, sorry, I can think of about a hundred different ways to make the racing more exciting, but unfortunately that would mean reversing half the bone-head decisions the FIA has made in the last few years.

(As for likening the tyres of an F1 car to the cars Montoya now drives, are u mad? The cars are completely different, the set-ups are completely different, and pretty much like your car at home, no they do not depend so much on the temperature of the tyres, because they are more basic and rely on a different kind of driver skill, not a better one.)


A very good post. Of all the people in F1, I think very few regard safety in the way DC does, and that is in regards to drivers, spectators, and track workers. I remember very clearly DC during a podium interview making a statement to the effect that his race result was insignificant considering that a track worker had been killed.

Although his driving has diminished over the years in my opinion, I regard DC very highly when it comes to speaking an honest opinion and coming across as a very genuine person.

[wmcot]

Montoya never had a problem with cold tyres in Champcar

Tell that to Alex Zanardi!

[Sleeper]

I'm not in total agreement with DC on this one. He's right that if tyre warmers were removed today then racing in F1 would be very dangerous, the tyres dont have much grip when they fall below a certain temperature, and thats only half a dozen or so degrees below the optimum temp anyway. But also, lets remember that the tyres are currently tayler made to run after being warmed up, they are right on a knife edge that only the talented are capable of useing (making Hammends Top Gear drive in the R25 completely irelevent to this thread, he probably would have spun the car anyway) i.e. F1 drivers.

I think that with the return of slicks for 2009, the banning of tyre warmers means that they will have to have a much wider operating window, reducing their peak performunce (at least in theory) and hopefully garenteing that the slicks stay, whilst also not making it a death trap on wheels as they will heat up quicker.

[Valve Bounce]

Valve: The only way I passed physics was that they wanted me as a defensive end on the football team. Even then 50% was a real stretch.
However certain gasses do not expand nearly as much as air when subjected to the amount of heat increase developed in a racing tire. This is from actual experience using, if my feeble memory is correct, nitrogen. We had negligible expansion as opposed to compressed air.


Are you contradicting Charles or Boyle?? You are very lucky you didn't go to a Christian Brothers school - we got the gat for that.. :(

The gat is a leather strap made by saddlers in Brisbane who used to be at Petrie Bight; the strap was about 18 inches long, an inch in cross section, and if you got anything wrong in class, the "CROW" would pull the strap out from his cloak and you got that on the palm of your hand. Other misdemeanors were rewarded with 4 on each hand and 6 on the bare bottom. Ugly bruises resulted. :eek:

[Sleeper]

Are you contradicting Charles or Boyle?? You are very lucky you didn't go to a Christian Brothers school - we got the gat for that.. :(

The gat is a leather strap made by saddlers in Brisbane who used to be at Petrie Bight; the strap was about 18 inches long, an inch in cross section, and if you got anything wrong in class, the "CROW" would pull the strap out from his cloak and you got that on the palm of your hand. Other misdemeanors were rewarded with 4 on each hand and 6 on the bare bottom. Ugly bruises resulted. :eek:
I think he's right, I remember reading a quote some years ago from an engineere in F1 that they use a nitrogen mix because it expands considerably less than normal air.

[Valve Bounce]

Tell that to Charles and Boyle. :p :

[wedge]

Remember the 2006 Australian GP, just about everyone had problems with putting heat into the tyres, there were cars going off and crashing left, right and centre; and yet I distinctly some people on here said it was an enjoyable race and hardly anyone agreed with JYS saying that it was dangerous when Schumi off at the last corner because 'F1 is much safer these days'.

And yet now some people decide to change their minds after DC's comments which is fair enough.

I remember Stewart was one of the first teams to test the current spec narrow chassis/grooved tyres, Rubens Barrichello mentioned how the car became twitchy and unstable under braking and sensitive to crosswinds and so forth, and yet there isn't much of a problem now apart from mechanical grip from the tyres. Other drivers went on to mention the D word.

People mention the good old days when cars slide and drift and 1000BHP turbo engines. Errr, that was dangerous! And yet there are people here who would love see the V10s return.

Live by the sword, die the sword...

[Valve Bounce]

I don't think many of us would like to see anyone driving in a car with a tub that is not as strong as today's.

[ShiftingGears]

People mention the good old days when cars slide and drift and 1000BHP turbo engines. Errr, that was dangerous! And yet there are people here who would love see the V10s return.

More spectacular, not necessarily more dangerous. Thats what people want to see - spectacle. Excluding safety devices, drivers would come undone in corners now at faster speeds than when the cars had V10s, or when they slid and drifted. = More dangerous.

Drivers drive on the limit now, like they did in previous eras, but to the average fan they cant see it due to downforce. So more power and less grip doesn't mean more danger.

The main point I would be raising is why the FIA haven't returned to the race-distance tyre rule in '05. That's the only rule that actually lowered cornering speeds. Bizarre that they did a backflip on it, really.

[Valve Bounce]

The main point I would be raising is why the FIA haven't returned to the race-distance tyre rule in '05. That's the only rule that actually lowered cornering speeds. Bizarre that they did a backflip on it, really.

Possibly because there were instances where drivers were trying to race on tyres which were buggered.


The way evelopment is heading in F1, smaller engines failed to slow cars through corners - in fact, cars were going through corners faster. F1 is all about going faster, and it's difficult to make a rule which will slow cars without affecting something else.

[ShiftingGears]

Possibly because there were instances where drivers were trying to race on tyres which were buggered.

Yes but I suppose thats the consequence of driving too aggressively, and building a car which is too harsh on its tyres.

[Valve Bounce]

..............or a driver flat spotting a tyre.

[wedge]

So more power and less grip doesn't mean more danger.

Increase power and you increase top speed. Increase speed = more danger and even more so with less grip!

More grip and you increase cornering speeds but the car is more stable and predictable.



The way development is heading in F1, smaller engines failed to slow cars through corners - in fact, cars were going through corners faster.

Due to aero developments!

[Easy Drifter]

Valve: I didn't say gas did not expand with heat. I said some gasses do not expand as much as others. Using nitrogen as the inflator in racing tires resulted in very little expansion as compared to normal air with the amount of heat increase under racing conditions. This is not theory but what we found in practice by measuring the tire diameter so obviously we were wrong according to your references.

[Roamy]

Let's face it DC is no wimp as we witnessed when he raced immediately after that helicopter crash.

hey rockpile - it was a private jet crash. and it has nothing to do with balls as he was just a bloody passenger.

[Dave B]

You are something else, fousto. Let's see you walk away from a plane crash in which a dear friend perished and jump straight into an F1 car. "Just a bloody passenger"? That's some of the most patronising crap I've ever read, even by your standards.

[Ranger]

You are something else, fousto. Let's see you walk away from a plane crash in which a dear friend perished and jump straight into an F1 car. "Just a bloody passenger"? That's some of the most patronising crap I've ever read, even by your standards.

Well, DC wasn't seriously injured, was he? When you are paid millions each year you're expected to do your job regardless of what happens in your personal life. I don't think "not being a wimp" has anything to do with it, not that plane crashes have anything to do with this.

I do think the tyre warming ban is silly, but as pointed out, the Senna card that he plays is wrongly justfied, as a suspension arm was responsible for his passing and the cause of the car leaving the road was never established for several reasons.

[ShiftingGears]

Increase power and you increase top speed. Increase speed = more danger and even more so with less grip!

More grip and you increase cornering speeds but the car is more stable and predictable.




Due to aero developments!

Increasing top speed, yes, but the chances are that the cars won't go off in a straight line. Also, top speed is also reliant on cars being faster out of previous corners.

[Roamy]

You are something else, fousto. Let's see you walk away from a plane crash in which a dear friend perished and jump straight into an F1 car. "Just a bloody passenger"? That's some of the most patronising crap I've ever read, even by your standards.

Well Dave I would have to dig up the article but "YES" I did walk away from a plane crash in Bridger Canyon Montana in the 70's and while I am not a F1 driver I was back on another airplane within 3 hours. And while I am a pilot I was not the pilot of that aircraft that day. I was just "a bloody passenger"

[winer]

Did the FIA publish a reason for banning tire warmers in 2008?

[truefan72]

Did the FIA publish a reason for banning tire warmers in 2008?

do they have too?
As we all know the fIA in their irrational manner see fit to arbitrarily change things around when MM feels like it and then months later produce some half witted poorly written and full of grey areas statement that leaves everything subject to interpratation.

i.e you may not have tyre warmers, but nothing to stop you from placing high powered heaters around the tyres with a coverings on each side to aid the circulation of the warm air

[airshifter]

do they have too?
As we all know the fIA in their irrational manner see fit to arbitrarily change things around when MM feels like it and then months later produce some half witted poorly written and full of grey areas statement that leaves everything subject to interpratation.

i.e you may not have tyre warmers, but nothing to stop you from placing high powered heaters around the tyres with a coverings on each side to aid the circulation of the warm air


As much as it seems funny, it's also sad that the FIA doesn't see it coming. If they monitor tire temps any way like they do fuel temps, it's an accident waiting to happen. If they were smart, they would draft an iron clad rule concerning tire temps and put it in place now.

[truefan72]

I'm not exactly sure what the problem with tyre warmes were.
MM is trying to squeeze the technology out of the sport for what reason. ?

Last year's champoinship was pretty darn interesting and competitive. This year, at least 4 teams will mix it up for podiums. What is this anti-advancement, engine freeze foolishness he is trying to impose.

I think he watches too much nascar and is trying to impose his will and orchestrate the races as much as he can...to all our detriment.

[ArrowsFA1]

It seems that objections to the tyre warmer ban are growing.

Pedro de la Rosa:
"The first lap is very slow, and that's the danger. There are cars which are up to racing speed and you are coming out of the pits very slowly. You are like a mobile chicane."

Nico Rosberg:
"You can't run tyres like this next year. That's my opinion, definitely not. It's ridiculous. Running out of the pits it's ridiculous.
It's not racing, it's survival. It's just survival out there, and that's ridiculous, it's not racing. They have to do something on the tyres to improve that. It's not the way it should be. You can have cold tyres, but not like that."

Rubens Barrichello:
"It's a bit too early to say things but I follow what de la Rosa said. Without the blankets racing might be a bit boring, because then people will want to go as long as possible, as you are going to lose three seconds out of the pits. We may have crashes on the out lap because people may be trying things and I just don't think that's nice. What we could do then is make harder tyres with a little bit of blanket. Off the top of my mind, if the FIA supplied a tyre blanket with a maximum temperature. Let's say 50 degrees. Anything better than none. You could go to Malaysia and it would be better. But if you have a safety car with a tyre like this...As racing drivers we know we can get used to things, so it's not a problem. But I think for the show it's not going to be nice. It's just not needed. We are going back. It's going to be like Champ Cars."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66663

[ioan]

The way I see it:

1. No tire warmers = need for very soft tires that will not manage to go more than 10 laps (and I'm being optimistic here)
2. No tire warmers = need for tires made of several different compounds (softer on the top and gradualy getting harder as the tire wears down), this might be too expensive to produce and not very popular.
3. No tire warmers and harder tires (very hard ones that allow for very little grip difference at different temperatures).
4. Tire warmers permitted and they can use any slick tire they want.

[ArrowsFA1]

Is this just a case of drivers used to having nice warm sticky tyres straight from the pits having to get used to something new now they don't have the benefit of tyre warmers?

In the days before tyre warmers was there the apparently huge difference in grip levels that current drivers seem to be experiencing? If so how did the drivers manage the tyres then, and aren't current drivers capable of doing the same? If not what was so different about the tyres?

[ioan]

Is this just a case of drivers used to having nice warm sticky tyres straight from the pits having to get used to something new now they don't have the benefit of tyre warmers?

If there really is such a big speed difference between warmed an not warmed tires than I do understand them. It's their life that is in danger.
However I'm amazed that it takes 2 or more laps to warm these tires.


In the days before tyre warmers was there the apparently huge difference in grip levels that current drivers seem to be experiencing? If so how did the drivers manage the tyres then, and aren't current drivers capable of doing the same? If not what was so different about the tyres?

Earlier they used to have the same tires for the whole race, so they were all in the same situation (no pit exiting with cold tires).
Or maybe before the tires had a different construction, the compounds were harder and less sensible to temperature differences.

[MAX_THRUST]

Another idea stolen from CCWS, IRL and every other series in the world that does not ahve tyre warmers, which is all of them.

I think it'll be great for the sport, good for the fans and a little hard work for the drivers. Reallity is I don't think it'll make much of a difference

[ioan]

Another idea stolen from CCWS, IRL and every other series in the world that does not ahve tyre warmers, which is all of them.

Stolen idea! :rolleyes:
Do you think that F1 always had tire warmers or what???

[wedge]

Is this just a case of drivers used to having nice warm sticky tyres straight from the pits having to get used to something new now they don't have the benefit of tyre warmers?

I would agree with that.

It takes time to adjust to a new car.

There was bitching when the new car dimensions and grooved tyres were introduced. Drivers were complaining about the car being more twitchy, more dive/pitch sensitivity, more sensitive to crosswinds.

Same thing in NASCAR. Drivers complaining that the COT doesn't handle like a race car because they took off a whole load of downforce.

[ShiftingGears]

I would agree with that.

It takes time to adjust to a new car.

There was bitching when the new car dimensions and grooved tyres were introduced. Drivers were complaining about the car being more twitchy, more dive/pitch sensitivity, more sensitive to crosswinds.


Making the cars narrower and with grooved tyres (aka less mechanical grip) is not a good idea if you want spectacle in F1, so that was never a good idea.

[Tazio]

Considering the times these guys are posting in barca. I think whatever disadvantage going out on cold slicks has it will add to pit strategy, and passing, when a shorter first stint driver who pitted with the lead gets a run at the guy who pitted second and slots slightly ahead. In terms of safety, I think that is something they will sort out over the off seasonIMHO

[markabilly]

Safety? If they really want to make the race safe, eliminate all pit stops---it is only a question of time before there is another dangerous pit fire, someone gets run over, and so forth.........but then of course that means no more pit passing and then what will the fans do to keep from falling asleep?

Nothing like adding artificial drama for fans that do not know better..."Woowww!!! look at that, he got back on the track in front of the car he was trailing!!! WOW, WHAT A great driving move..."

[woody2goody]

I would agree with that.

It takes time to adjust to a new car.

There was bitching when the new car dimensions and grooved tyres were introduced. Drivers were complaining about the car being more twitchy, more dive/pitch sensitivity, more sensitive to crosswinds.

Same thing in NASCAR. Drivers complaining that the COT doesn't handle like a race car because they took off a whole load of downforce.

I think the NASCAR drivers are just griping because the COT is something different to what they are used to. It can't be a terrible race car and it's already proven to be much safer.

Couldn't they have tyre warmers that aren't as thick to just heat the tyre to acceptable temperatures so as to not make it dangerous? I do agree that teams should be allowed to choose any slick tyre they want.

[Tazio]

Mike adds his voice to those who want to keep tire warmers
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080417093957.shtml

Michael Schumacher has backed the group of active F1 drivers who believe the FIA should reconsider plans to ban tyre warmers next year.

At the Barcelona test this week, teams have been experimenting with the proposed 2009 regulations, including the reintroduction of fully slick tyres, a drastic reduction in downforce, and the absence of tyre-warming blankets.

But while drivers have enthused about the superior grip provided by Bridgestone's latest development slicks, they are nearly unanimous in their concern that exiting the pits without them being pre-heated is a safety issue.

"Yes, for next year they should keep the tyre warmers," Schumacher, after more than 80 laps in the Ferrari on Wednesday, is quoted as saying by the Spanish press.

Not including the extended warming-up phase, which can run into three or four laps at notably reduced speed, the German agreed that driving on slicks is "more fun because there's more grip.

"

[SGWilko]

Mike adds his voice to those who want to keep tire warmers
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080417093957.shtml

Michael Schumacher has backed the group of active F1 drivers who believe the FIA should reconsider plans to ban tyre warmers next year.

At the Barcelona test this week, teams have been experimenting with the proposed 2009 regulations, including the reintroduction of fully slick tyres, a drastic reduction in downforce, and the absence of tyre-warming blankets.

But while drivers have enthused about the superior grip provided by Bridgestone's latest development slicks, they are nearly unanimous in their concern that exiting the pits without them being pre-heated is a safety issue.

"Yes, for next year they should keep the tyre warmers," Schumacher, after more than 80 laps in the Ferrari on Wednesday, is quoted as saying by the Spanish press.

Not including the extended warming-up phase, which can run into three or four laps at notably reduced speed, the German agreed that driving on slicks is "more fun because there's more grip.

"

Does anyone know when tyre warmers were first used. Was there a time when slicks were used 'sans' warmers?

I think given that it takes a couple of laps to get the slicks - in the current guise - up to speed, I agree with the drivers vote to keep tyre warmers.

[ioan]

Does anyone know when tyre warmers were first used. Was there a time when slicks were used 'sans' warmers?

I think given that it takes a couple of laps to get the slicks - in the current guise - up to speed, I agree with the drivers vote to keep tyre warmers.

I do not remember seeing tire warmers on the 70's F1 cars, and they were running on slicks.

[SGWilko]

I do not remember seeing tire warmers on the 70's F1 cars, and they were running on slicks.

Thanks. Well, Bridgestone ought to be making enquiries as to the composition of such tyres perhaps?

[wedge]

Then what makes F1 different to IRL/CCWS?

[markabilly]

I do not remember seeing tire warmers on the 70's F1 cars, and they were running on slicks.


Thanks. Well, Bridgestone ought to be making enquiries as to the composition of such tyres perhaps?
I think that tire warmers became popular in the late 80-early 90's, a short time after pit stops became the latest fashion. In the 1970's, cars were not pit stopping, so the tire needed to be good and hard and not act like melted butter....

[TMorel]

The real question is did they have similar differences in performance in the 80's pre warmers between cold and used rubber and were there any incidents involving accidents due to the difference in closing speeds.

[Powered by Cosworth]

Safety? If they really want to make the race safe, eliminate all pit stops---it is only a question of time before there is another dangerous pit fire, someone gets run over, and so forth.........but then of course that means no more pit passing and then what will the fans do to keep from falling asleep?

Nothing like adding artificial drama for fans that do not know better..."Woowww!!! look at that, he got back on the track in front of the car he was trailing!!! WOW, WHAT A great driving move..."

There were many incidents in 2005 where tyres had to be used for the whole race. Some very dangerous crashes. There's rarely any problems in the pitlane considering there's about 30-40 pit stops per race.

[markabilly]

There were many incidents in 2005 where tyres had to be used for the whole race. Some very dangerous crashes. There's rarely any problems in the pitlane considering there's about 30-40 pit stops per race.


that was when miclelin and bridgestone were still competing for who could make their melted butter stickier and still last.........now with a spec tire, that should not be such a problem...........

[Tazio]

I like sticky tires! :p :

[Bagwan]

The difference in speed on straights will be minimal , only affected by the out from the previous corner .
Speed in corners will be more drastically different , but this will be what they are working on to minimize .
The feeling of being unable to defend your position , due to cold tires will be a frightful thought for these guys , but the feeling will quickly go away when they are the ones with the advantage of having that sitting duck in the crosshairs .

This is simply a matter for those who practice the black art of tire making to fix . They make slicks , and can help these poor guys look less foolish in the corners .
Give them time .

[tinchote]

You obviously did not do your physics homework, did you!! Here's Charles Law :http://members.aol.com/profchm/charles.html and here's Boyles Law. http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/aboyle.html Just combine the two. OK??
Which I hope will help you with your exams next year.



It looks to me like you are the one who didn't do his homework :down:

Charles' Law, as the link you posted says, it's a law for an ideal gas. Besides, what each law says is that there is a certain relation between the properties of the gas; but in both cases there is a constant involved, and the constant is different for each gas. In other words, each gas has different thermal properties, even (and this is ideal, not real) they all behave through the same laws.

[tinchote]

Well, DC wasn't seriously injured, was he? When you are paid millions each year you're expected to do your job regardless of what happens in your personal life. I don't think "not being a wimp" has anything to do with it, not that plane crashes have anything to do with this.



Only detail is that he run the race with a couple of broken ribs.


Is this just a case of drivers used to having nice warm sticky tyres straight from the pits having to get used to something new now they don't have the benefit of tyre warmers?



That was my thought initially, but I see a difference, and that is that in the "old days" there were no scheduled pitstops. They all started on cold tyres, so it was fair game for everybody. Next year they will have to be in "survival mode" after the pitstop. This is not very nice, as some of the little excitement in the current races is when two cars get together after one pits: all those battles will be gone next year, as the rival will swing past with his warm tyres.

[Tazio]

Well at least one engineer is playing down the affects of not using the blankets


But Honda's engineering chief Steve Clark played down the issue at the end of the four day group test this week at Barcelona.

"Running here in warmer conditions, we had no issues with warming the tyres up without blankets," he said.

"We are looking forward to the challenge of running the cars next year without tyre warmers and reduced downforce.

"It should be interesting," he added.
http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=81730&newlang=&topic=8&catid=0
When he says "we" is he including the drivers?

[Tazio]

The difference in speed on straights will be minimal , only affected by the out from the previous corner .
Speed in corners will be more drastically different , but this will be what they are working on to minimize .
The feeling of being unable to defend your position , due to cold tires will be a frightful thought for these guys , but the feeling will quickly go away when they are the ones with the advantage of having that sitting duck in the crosshairs .

This is simply a matter for those who practice the black art of tire making to fix . They make slicks , and can help these poor guys look less foolish in the corners .
Give them time .

Apparently this is the intention of Bridgestone:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66711

But Bridgestone Motorsport's technical manager Tetsuro Kobayashi said the Japanese tyre maker had made significant progress during this week's test at Barcelona.

Running with the slick tyres has been interesting and we are also happy with their performance," he said. "The situation of warm-up with these tyres is much improved as we look to the future with no tyre blankets.

"We brought three compounds of slicks here so there was a lot of work to do, especially with teams running with different aerodynamic configurations."

Kobayashi added that he believes the situation would improve further as Bridgestone and the teams continued to develop the new tyres.

"We have accumulated good data for analysis from the four days here," he said. "This data will be processed and investigated carefully to evaluate our next steps

[Tazio]

:beer: ??????????

[Tazio]

I think the introduction of sicks next season is gonna' be sweet ;)

http://www.grandprixmagazine.com/f1/F1-_Next_slick_tyre_test_in_July_-_Bridgestone.shtml(GMM)

The next test to feature Bridgestone's developments of the intended 2009 slick tyres
is scheduled for July.F1's official sole tyre supplier said in a statement that it expects to make even "more progress"
with the compounds, following the major test with slicks at Barcelona's Circuit de Catalunya last week

Meanwhile, Ferrari designer Nicholas Tombazis ruled out speculation that the Italian team is planning to roll out a "prototype" of its 2009 car at the next slick test.

"Totally implausible," he said in the pages of La Gazzetta dello Sport.

If they were, this is more evidence that Ferrari can't keep anything under their hat! :p :

[SGWilko]

If they were, this is more evidence that Ferrari can't keep anything under their hat! :p :

Would you want the other teams to have an advance preview of the direction in which a leading team is focussing Vis a Vis 2009 regs?

My advice to Ferrari would be to remove 'headwear' from the list of required corporate clothing!!! :laugh:

[Tazio]

Would you want the other teams to have an advance preview of the direction in which a leading team is focussing Vis a Vis 2009 regs?

My advice to Ferrari would be to remove 'headwear' from the list of required corporate clothing!!! :laugh: That's really neither here nor there!
If they were that far ahead in development it might not matter.
I don't think that the others would necessarily decern if it was a mach up,
a modified, or a prototype, if it wasn't broadcast ahead of time!

[wedge]

“The car was very good, good traction, good balance,” he said. “My only worries were that I had never saved fuel before. That and driving on cold tires was very scary. It was a very difficult race for the mind.”

[wedge]

“The car was very good, good traction, good balance,” he said. “My only worries were that I had never saved fuel before. That and driving on cold tires was very scary. It was a very difficult race for the mind.”

Former F1 driver Frank Montagny on driving at the final CCWS race at Long Beach last weekend

Source: Speedtv.com

[ShiftingGears]

Yeah! We should just get Will Power to replace Coulthard instead.

[aryan]

Right on it, it is only a new way to produce artificial racing without directly addressing the cause of the lack of overtaking.

Which you might find surprising ioan, is exactly what DC is saying as well



I would suggest a bigger influence on the ability to overtake is having enough lap time variation among different cars over the course of a race.

Pre-1994 you used to get that by having full fuel tanks and no mid-race refuelling.

In the turbo days, if a car was more efficient it didn’t have to carry as much fuel, so you could have one car starting the race which might be slower over a single lap but had 10kg less fuel. Tyre management was a big factor then too, as you could choose to run non-stop or pit multiple times for new rubber.

It’s ironic that refuelling was introduced to spice up the spectacle, yet it has probably had the opposite effect.

There’s no question in my mind that banning refuelling would create more lap time variation and improve the racing.

[aryan]

Right on it, it is only a new way to produce artificial racing without directly addressing the cause of the lack of overtaking.

Which you might find surprising ioan, is exactly what DC is saying as well



I would suggest a bigger influence on the ability to overtake is having enough lap time variation among different cars over the course of a race.

Pre-1994 you used to get that by having full fuel tanks and no mid-race refuelling.

In the turbo days, if a car was more efficient it didn’t have to carry as much fuel, so you could have one car starting the race which might be slower over a single lap but had 10kg less fuel. Tyre management was a big factor then too, as you could choose to run non-stop or pit multiple times for new rubber.

It’s ironic that refuelling was introduced to spice up the spectacle, yet it has probably had the opposite effect.

There’s no question in my mind that banning refuelling would create more lap time variation and improve the racing.

[aryan]

Well, DC wasn't seriously injured, was he? When you are paid millions each year you're expected to do your job regardless of what happens in your personal life. I don't think "not being a wimp" has anything to do with it, not that plane crashes have anything to do with this.



I take it that you've never been in a car crash to know how wrecked your neves are afterwards even if you've just been a passenger.

I can only imagine what being in a private jet accident should be like...

[aryan]

DC is getting old, and it seems he is just driving to earn a few million dollars till his retirement, so everything thats makes driving a F1 car more difficult he is against it.

You'd be surprised to find that what DC earns through driving these days is dwarfed by his earnings through his Monte Carlo hotels. Not to mention that the guy has had offers to test for Ferrari for far larger sums and he has declined that because he likes racing.

Now even I think that DC is getting a bit too old and should perhaps leave room for some younger blood at the end of this season, but to claim that DC is in it for the money is really insane.

DC is a respected 230+ GP driver with a very logical safety concern here. While my mind is not made up on the matter of tyre warmers (simply because we don't know their effect on slicks), I think DC is bringing up a real issue here which needs to be discussed and analysed by experts in order to make sure that the safety aspects of F1 are not compromised by one rash decision.

[dc10]

You'd be surprised to find that what DC earns through driving these days is dwarfed by his earnings through his Monte Carlo hotels. Not to mention that the guy has had offers to test for Ferrari for far larger sums and he has declined that because he likes racing.

Now even I think that DC is getting a bit too old and should perhaps leave room for some younger blood at the end of this season, but to claim that DC is in it for the money is really insane.

DC is a respected 230+ GP driver with a very logical safety concern here. While my mind is not made up on the matter of tyre warmers (simply because we don't know their effect on slicks), I think DC is bringing up a real issue here which needs to be discussed and analysed by experts in order to make sure that the safety aspects of F1 are not compromised by one rash decision.

Sheesh! If DC's getting old, I must have one foot in the grave! Dont see why he should retire while he's still enjoying racing and can work with Newey etc. to help RBR improve.
Bring it on DC :p