McLaren must wait for 2008 car clearance

[ArrowsFA1]

Why :confused:

The FIA say (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64311) that their "investigation has been concluded", so what is the purpose of giving "McLaren, Ferrari and the other competitors" the opportunity "to make considered representations"?

Max has said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64335) there are "good reasons" and that "McLaren were informed early on about our doubts. They have sufficient time to react, should the doubt be confirmed."

That suggests the FIA have found something. In which case why have McLaren not been penalised, as Max said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63711) they would be back in October, instead of postponing a decision until just a month before the start of the season?

[ioan]

Why :confused:

The FIA say (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64311) that their "investigation has been concluded", so what is the purpose of giving "McLaren, Ferrari and the other competitors" the opportunity "to make considered representations"?

Max has said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64335) there are "good reasons" and that "McLaren were informed early on about our doubts. They have sufficient time to react, should the doubt be confirmed."

That suggests the FIA have found something. In which case why have McLaren not been penalised, as Max said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63711) they would be back in October, instead of postponing a decision until just a month before the start of the season?

3 months would be enough time to modify some of the cars components using the Ferrari data source, 1 month would be a close call however!

I don't see what's the problem here? They are just doing what it has to be done to make sure that McC&L won't be tempted to cheat again. :p :

[ioan]

On a serious note.
I really don't see why this is bothering so many people.

It's just about politics.

McLaren's 2008 cars were investigated and either the FIA were happy but are just trying to picture themselves as being serious about the matter (just for the masses to be happy), or maybe the FIA found something and are giving McLaren time to change the incriminating designs.

In any case I don't see how this is doing any harm to McLaren.

If they do not use Ferrari's ideas for their design than they can sleep well at night with a clean conscience and pull hard for the next season.
The only case when they should be bothered about something is if their design isn't clean of any Ferrari influence.

That's how I see it.

[ArrowsFA1]

If they do not use Ferrari's ideas for their design than they can sleep well at night with a clean conscience and pull hard for the next season.
The only case when they should be bothered about something is if their design isn't clean of any Ferrari influence.
I agree with that. But it seems that the design isn't clean. At the very least the FIA have said their investigation has concluded, and that there are doubts. The suggestion is that McLaren are being given "sufficient time to react".

I ask again why :confused:

Max was quite clear. If anything was to be found then McLaren would be penalised, probably with a points penalty. He now appears to be doing anything to avoid that, while at the same time is giving McLaren's competitiors a say, and delaying the decision until just a month before the start of the season.

[ioan]

I agree with that. But it seems that the design isn't clean. At the very least the FIA have said their investigation has concluded, and that there are doubts. The suggestion is that McLaren are being given "sufficient time to react".

I ask again why :confused:

Max was quite clear. If anything was to be found then McLaren would be penalised, probably with a points penalty. He now appears to be doing anything to avoid that, while at the same time is giving McLaren's competitiors a say, and delaying the decision until just a month before the start of the season.

It's all in the interest of transparency, and also giving McLaren a fairer chance (than what they deserve IMO).

I'm wondering what are thinking now those accusing the FIA of witch hunting against RD and McLaren?!

[seppefan]

Why :confused:

The FIA say (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64311) that their "investigation has been concluded", so what is the purpose of giving "McLaren, Ferrari and the other competitors" the opportunity "to make considered representations"?

Max has said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64335) there are "good reasons" and that "McLaren were informed early on about our doubts. They have sufficient time to react, should the doubt be confirmed."

That suggests the FIA have found something. In which case why have McLaren not been penalised, as Max said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63711) they would be back in October, instead of postponing a decision until just a month before the start of the season?

It does seem strange. Not sure why " the other competitors " are making representations as they were not involved, only Ferrari. What the " good reasons " are.....Max saying he reckons Ron was lying is close to the mark, waiting till 14.2.8 is obstructive and it seems that is the FIA's mission. But why ? Loosing Mclaren to F1 would be an own goal and if I was a Mclaren shareholder I would be looking at other series. The FIA will hound them all year and probably ruin 08 as they did ( in part ) in 07.

[Big Ben]

It's all in the interest of transparency, and also giving McLaren a fairer chance (than what they deserve IMO).

I'm wondering what are thinking now those accusing the FIA of witch hunting against RD and McLaren?!

so they don't deserve a fair chance. you are being honest for once.

didn't Max say they have delayed the decision because he felt RD wasn´t saying the truth. we shall wait and see how Max's feeling will evolve and how can RD manage to influence those feelings. I guess a good way would be to stay calm and not make too much noise about the Renault decision and push Max to punish renault and make them leave f1.
I'm sure they can find similarities between the two cars. Aren't they made within the same rules? Of course it would be something else if they cheated the same way. Then I would understand Max's doubts. I would add another pair of wheels to the car just to be sure they wouldn't object against the fact they have the same number of wheels as the reds do.
It also puts more pressure on Ron's team.

[SGWilko]

Max found, on inspecting the McLaren 2008 car, that it had a device for securely holding the driver's bottom in place in the cockpit.

It is called a seat. Apparently, Ferrari thought of this first, and are upset that McLaren have copied this idea.

On further investigation, Max found other components employing Ferrari ideas, like a steering wheel, wing mirrors, wheels even.

Poor Max nearly had to be rushed to A&E for palpetations, but luckily McLaren had some Tic Tac's he could suck (apparently stolen from when they were sponsoring Ferrari).

The way I see it is this. The '08 McLaren either is legal, or it is not. It seems Max is trying on the - we need more time to fabricate how a particular component can be seen as a Ferrari idea. Tsk. :down:

[ioan]

so they don't deserve a fair chance. you are being honest for once.

I was always honest.

I always felt that both McLaren and Renault should have been thrown out of the 2007 season and banned for 2008 for their actions.

What I found hilarious is that McLaren supporters are attacking Max when he protected McLaren and their drivers when it was clear that they were guilty.

Studying the human nature is a very entertaining show! :D

[ioan]

Max found, on inspecting the McLaren 2008 car, that it had a device for securely holding the driver's bottom in place in the cockpit.

It is called a seat.

I thought that is a racing harness! :p :

[SGWilko]

I thought that is a racing harness! :p :

I did consider that, but the harness is usually provided by a manufacturer, the seat is bespoke and made in-house, so there was a little method behind the madness. ;)

[markabilly]

Max found, on inspecting the McLaren 2008 car, that it had a device for securely holding the driver's bottom in place in the cockpit.

It is called a seat. Apparently, Ferrari thought of this first, and are upset that McLaren have copied this idea.

On further investigation, Max found other components employing Ferrari ideas, like a steering wheel, wing mirrors, wheels even.

Poor Max nearly had to be rushed to A&E for palpetations, but luckily McLaren had some Tic Tac's he could suck (apparently stolen from when they were sponsoring Ferrari).

The way I see it is this. The '08 McLaren either is legal, or it is not. It seems Max is trying on the - we need more time to fabricate how a particular component can be seen as a Ferrari idea. Tsk. :down:
Just one more that needs to be added to Max's lenghtening list of folks that needs a real good smacking upside the head with a writ....... :eek:

Anyway there is a legitimate concern that Hamilton might be driving a ferrari in 2008 with a merc engine...whereas there seems to be little concern that Freddie may be driving a Mac...

[PSfan]

I say if even the slightest little thing on the 2008 Mac is derived from the Ferrari designs, even ifs its just a cup holder, I say banish them for 08 and 09, and if another team steps in to fill their spot in 09, then good ridence

[Big Ben]

I was always honest.

I always felt that both McLaren and Renault should have been thrown out of the 2007 season and banned for 2008 for their actions.

What I found hilarious is that McLaren supporters are attacking Max when he protected McLaren and their drivers when it was clear that they were guilty.

Studying the human nature is a very entertaining show! :D

I wouldn't say I am a McLaren supporter anymore. They have disappointed me in so many ways this year. I hope they'll fail next year big time. But I still think Max is an idiot.

[SGWilko]

cup holder

Cup holder? On a Ferrari? Oh yes, the executive Kimi G&T docking device..... ;)

[markabilly]

Cup holder? On a Ferrari? Oh yes, the executive Kimi G&T docking device..... ;)
Kimi does not need it as I am certain that he does not ever have either "half full" or "half empty" cups or bottles except while drinking by holding it in one hand.......

[ArrowsFA1]

It's all in the interest of transparency...
If that were true then the FIA would have announced the conclusions of their investigation into McLaren's 2008 car.

[ioan]

If that were true then the FIA would have announced the conclusions of their investigation into McLaren's 2008 car.

And than you all would have been asking for Max' head while Brundle would be writing another biased column about witch hunting against RD and McLaren.
Stewart and Hill would get a heart attack while explaining on BBC how this is all to favor Ferrari.

The whole British mass-media would say it's just a means to stop Hamilton from winning his first F1 WDC title.

And the list could go on.

The conclusions of the investigation will be made public when an unanimous decision will be taken about the McC&L cars in February.
Till than they have got time to clean their designs from any Ferrari influence instead of being shown the door.

[Garry Walker]

Interesting. I would like to know more about what Mosley hinted at.

[truefan72]

On a serious note.
I really don't see why this is bothering so many people.

It's just about politics.

McLaren's 2008 cars were investigated and either the FIA were happy but are just trying to picture themselves as being serious about the matter (just for the masses to be happy), or maybe the FIA found something and are giving McLaren time to change the incriminating designs.

In any case I don't see how this is doing any harm to McLaren.

If they do not use Ferrari's ideas for their design than they can sleep well at night with a clean conscience and pull hard for the next season.
The only case when they should be bothered about something is if their design isn't clean of any Ferrari influence.

That's how I see it.

:up:

Ioan I must say, that is well put and agree with that statement.

[truefan72]

I say if even the slightest little thing on the 2008 Mac is derived from the Ferrari designs, even ifs its just a cup holder, I say banish them for 08 and 09, and if another team steps in to fill their spot in 09, then good ridence

LOL

where is your sense of outrage over the years of Ferrari impropriety

according to you Ferrari would still be waiting to get back into the sport

LOL

please. IP sharing and stuff has been going on since the 1930's
it isn't a new phenomenon and generall was handled with gentlemans agreements and such. It is only as recentas 2007 that this false outrage has been taken up with the FIa and thus opening a pandora's box andhuge grey area.

Let's not go crazy now with draconian bans becuase you don't like a team or a driver, or principle.

I'm no ferrari fan but can't envision F1 without them, or McClaren, or Williams for that matter.

[ioan]

:up:

Ioan I must say, that is well put and agree with that statement.

Thanks, it's rare but we agree on fundamental aspects every now and then.

[ClarkFan]

Well, the WMSC report makes things clearer, doesn't it? Either the report is way off base, or McLaren just needs enough time to paint their cars red..... :rolleyes:

ClarkFan

[wmcot]

But McLaren have apologized and said that they won't use the "copied" systems in question so we should just let them off and trust their "integrity?" :(

[PSfan]

LOL

where is your sense of outrage over the years of Ferrari impropriety

according to you Ferrari would still be waiting to get back into the sport

LOL


As I stated previosly this year, I am truly amazed that another formula 1 team could upstage ferrari as the team I dislike most in F1.

However, my dislike for Ferrari being known, I can say without a shadow of a doubt, that in the 15-20 years has Ferrari actions have down anything that would warrant me suggesting a race ban let alone exclusion from complete seasons.



please. IP sharing and stuff has been going on since the 1930's
it isn't a new phenomenon and generall was handled with gentlemans agreements and such. It is only as recentas 2007 that this false outrage has been taken up with the FIa and thus opening a pandora's box andhuge grey area.


Granprix.com suggested following the 100m verdict that this "spying" was widespread, and that McLeran could come out and expose such going ons... Who did they select as their first target? Renault, based on information they where made aware of by Renault shortly after their punishment. IF this form of spying is as WIDE SPREAD as you and grandprix.com want to make it sound, then McLeran would have picked a better target, maybe one that they would have better evidence as to actually USING the questionable material, instead of a team that practicaly supplied all the evidence themselves!!!



Let's not go crazy now with draconian bans becuase you don't like a team or a driver, or principle.

Yah, because FIA has never kicked a team out of a sport they govern before... they are so above those draconian measures...


I'm no ferrari fan but can't envision F1 without them, or McClaren, or Williams for that matter.

"McClaren" made their own bed, but lucky for the McLeran fans, Max also cannot see F1 without McLeran either.

[ioan]

"McClaren" made their own bed, but lucky for the McLeran fans, Max also cannot see F1 without McLeran either.

I'm having hard time understanding how anyone can be the fan or supporter of a team of proven liars and cheaters?!
Really, to support or like a team you have to identify yourself, at least a little bit, with their way of doing things. And in McLaren's case it isn't obvious what kind of positives are there to identify yourself with. :\

[mstillhere]

LOL

where is your sense of outrage over the years of Ferrari impropriety

according to you Ferrari would still be waiting to get back into the sport

LOL.

You know, even if are laughing off the McLAren misdeeds, I am surprised to see you so harsh against Ferrari. Although, I don't recall ever Ferrari being involved in such shamefull cheating. Ferrari has been caught, like many other teams cheating in the past (although Mclaren fans seem to recall only the FERRARI bad episodes) and they have been punished and that was the end of it. I have never seen in my entire life a team cheating, being punished for cheating, told to stop cheating and caught AGAIN cheating withing a couple months from their "exemplary" punishement. In light of their own deeds I dont think they gave a s..... about their "examplary" fine. Their arrogance IS blinding them to the point that thay are ready to cheat AGAIN as soon as they are going to have the opportunity.

[truefan72]

You know, even if are laughing off the McLAren misdeeds, I am surprised to see you so harsh against Ferrari. Although, I don't recall ever Ferrari being involved in such shamefull cheating. Ferrari has been caught, like many other teams cheating in the past (although Mclaren fans seem to recall only the FERRARI bad episodes) and they have been punished and that was the end of it. I have never seen in my entire life a team cheating, being punished for cheating, told to stop cheating and caught AGAIN cheating withing a couple months from their "exemplary" punishement. In light of their own deeds I dont think they gave a s..... about their "examplary" fine. Their arrogance IS blinding them to the point that thay are ready to cheat AGAIN as soon as they are going to have the opportunity.

seriously,

I like Kimi and Massa, and used to own a ferrari myself ( albeit 2nd hand)
But I have never been a fan of the way Ferrari have gone about their F1 business. I don't root against them,(which doesn't mean I cheer them either) andif they win they win.I am more of a LH fan than a McClaren fan if he went to ferrari then I would be rooting for him to win. ( not the team)


Ferrari have been fined for actions that they were found guilty of and not all the other actions that we all know they broke the rules, or were unsporting.
Historically and more in recent years the fIa has seen fit to protect their favorite team, offer them a secrect aggreement, show on more than one occasion extreme favoritism, while simoultaneously dealing with their competitors in a harsher manner, That is the crux of my issue with Ferrari.

And to be honest, they have done more shameful things in the past than what McClaren did. Which was to be in possesion of IP information, discussing it and not disclosing the full extent of those who knew about the info. (wow an earh shattering crime)

Ferrari on the other hand used a clearly illegal component on their car for half a season and gained considerable advantage on the track by doing so,and instead of being thrown out of the competion, the FIA simply made that component legal.

In the past, they have used illegal brake systems, air ducts, engine systems, modulation, areodynamic components, etc, etc etc, and how many of those times have they been fined or let alone found guilty, assesed $100 dollar fines, or thrown out of the competion.

You may choose to see what you want to see, but most racing fans would generally agree that Ferrari have received more than their share of dubious judgements go their way in F1.

btw, McClaren were not found guilty of "cheating" and were not told to stop and re-cheated again as you assert. They were not caught again cheating, in fact that whole statement is simply wrong.

please know what they were punished for, and why the FIA and ferrari have now deemed this matter closed.

[mstillhere]

seriously,

I like Kimi and Massa, and used to own a ferrari myself ( albeit 2nd hand)
But I have never been a fan of the way Ferrari have gone about their F1 business. I don't root against them,(which doesn't mean I cheer them either) andif they win they win.I am more of a LH fan than a McClaren fan if he went to ferrari then I would be rooting for him to win. ( not the team)


Ferrari have been fined for actions that they were found guilty of and not all the other actions that we all know they broke the rules, or were unsporting.
Historically and more in recent years the fIa has seen fit to protect their favorite team, offer them a secrect aggreement, show on more than one occasion extreme favoritism, while simoultaneously dealing with their competitors in a harsher manner, That is the crux of my issue with Ferrari.

And to be honest, they have done more shameful things in the past than what McClaren did. Which was to be in possesion of IP information, discussing it and not disclosing the full extent of those who knew about the info. (wow an earh shattering crime)

Ferrari on the other hand used a clearly illegal component on their car for half a season and gained considerable advantage on the track by doing so,and instead of being thrown out of the competion, the FIA simply made that component legal.

In the past, they have used illegal brake systems, air ducts, engine systems, modulation, areodynamic components, etc, etc etc, and how many of those times have they been fined or let alone found guilty, assesed $100 dollar fines, or thrown out of the competion.

You may choose to see what you want to see, but most racing fans would generally agree that Ferrari have received more than their share of dubious judgements go their way in F1.

btw, McClaren were not found guilty of "cheating" and were not told to stop and re-cheated again as you assert. They were not caught again cheating, in fact that whole statement is simply wrong.

please know what they were punished for, and why the FIA and ferrari have now deemed this matter closed.

As I said, Ferrari has been caught cheating and so have many other teams. But once these teams got caught, they stopped. That's where McLaren "stands out", compared to everyone else. They did not stop cheating until when they got caught the SECOND time in a row. I mean, if that's not arrogance and deep rooted dishonesty, I don't know what it is. What I find annoying is the stament that makes FERRARI's cheating, fro some reason, worse than anybody else's. Cheating is cheating. And as we know, it does not have a nationalty nor color. Period! I have not idea what's making McLaren's cheating "soooo silly". Their repeated offenses were clearly against not only of the FIA rules but also, mind you, of the legal system (and I don't think you find Ferrari involved in anythink like that) and I would not be surprised (nor should you) if McLaren will have to suffer further punishments by the law this time (like for Toyota). So if its "case close' for the FIA and McLaren I don't think the same can be said for Ferrari. What McLaren has done goes beyond what has been the "routinly" cheating we have seen in F1 over the years. It goes into the legal (the real law). So dismissing the whole thing with a: "So what? Everybody else (read: Ferrari, right?) is cheating" kind of attitude, is a little too superficial and not an accurate understanding of the situation, especially after the admissions of McLaren team itself.
PS Do you really think that LH is the only one in the whole McLaren team that did not know anything about the Ferrari secrets? Hum......

[wmcot]

PS Do you really think that LH is the only one in the whole McLaren team that did not know anything about the Ferrari secrets? Hum......

Yeah, but his dad knew and didn't tell him! ;)

[I am evil Homer]

As I said, Ferrari has been caught cheating and so have many other teams. But once these teams got caught, they stopped. That's where McLaren "stands out", compared to everyone else. They did not stop cheating until when they got caught the SECOND time in a row. I mean, if that's not arrogance and deep rooted dishonesty, I don't know what it is. What I find annoying is the stament that makes FERRARI's cheating, fro some reason, worse than anybody else's. Cheating is cheating. And as we know, it does not have a nationalty nor color. Period! I have not idea what's making McLaren's cheating "soooo silly". Their repeated offenses were clearly against not only of the FIA rules but also, mind you, of the legal system (and I don't think you find Ferrari involved in anythink like that) and I would not be surprised (nor should you) if McLaren will have to suffer further punishments by the law this time (like for Toyota). So if its "case close' for the FIA and McLaren I don't think the same can be said for Ferrari. What McLaren has done goes beyond what has been the "routinly" cheating we have seen in F1 over the years. It goes into the legal (the real law). So dismissing the whole thing with a: "So what? Everybody else (read: Ferrari, right?) is cheating" kind of attitude, is a little too superficial and not an accurate understanding of the situation, especially after the admissions of McLaren team itself.
PS Do you really think that LH is the only one in the whole McLaren team that did not know anything about the Ferrari secrets? Hum......

I think you'd be a fool to think any team stops looking for an advantage regardless of whether they were caught or not. Toyota got away with exactly the same thing because they weren't a threat to Ferrari which is a joke.

How do you know Mac have gone beyond 'routine' cheating? How did Kolles get hold of those RBR blueprints?

No one knows how far this went...I mean my boss could well be committing fraud right now and feeding that info to me without any knowledge on my part of where that came from. Doesn't make me guilty.

The idea that every single person in McLaren knew it was Ferrari data is simply wrong. Some people clearly did - this named and shamed - others (mechanics, other technicians, computer people...maybe even Lewis and his enginner) probably had no idea.

[Valve Bounce]

The idea that every single person in McLaren knew it was Ferrari data is simply wrong. Some people clearly did - this named and shamed - others (mechanics, other technicians, computer people...maybe even Lewis and his enginner) probably had no idea.

You're right!! maybe some galah went and put Ferrari on the drawings and documents as an April Fool joke.

[SGWilko]

You're right!! maybe some galah went and put Ferrari on the drawings and documents as an April Fool joke.

If that is true, Ferrari must have a stationery theif, knicking stamps out the cupboard is frowned upon y'know. :p :

[Robinho]

a judgement needs to be made and the line drawn under the sorry mess. that is in FIA's hands at the moment. the only conclusion i can draw is that there will obviously be similarities in designs of most componentry in F1 - its a small pool of minds working to the same regulations, and most innovations are copied to some extent over time.

it could be that there are some things on the McLaren which are right at the forefront of the technology in the sport that are similar to something Ferrari use, but could have been derived without stolen plans as they show some differences. but in order to punish McLaren for their indiscretions they are being made to change these parts anyway so that regardless of where the idea came from they will not be able to gain the performance benefot from them and will have to look elsewhere - there is no evidence that they are ferrari derived so they can't be kicked out all together (it could be that 3 or 4 teams are working with similar things, a la Mass dampers), but due to the cheating they don't get to prove that it isn't ferarri, they lose that part anyway - fair enough IMO

[markabilly]

The idea that every single person in McLaren knew it was Ferrari data is simply wrong. Some people clearly did - this named and shamed - others (mechanics, other technicians, computer people...maybe even Lewis and his enginner) probably had no idea.

Sure Lewis, the one that had been the ardent Mac follower for years, the godson of RD with Mac in his blood, the one true hope for British manhood, would have no idea, while a brand new "recycled" driver would be engaging in very casual email traffic about extensive testing of the ideas with a test driver....or perhaps Lewis was demonstrating his superiority over the Spanard with respect to superior strategy (i.e, never leave an obvious trail when spying...)

[mstillhere]

I think you'd be a fool to think any team stops looking for an advantage regardless of whether they were caught or not.

Then McLaren must be the stupidiest team for being caught twice in a row while the other teams, according to you, did not.
My points in my reply to truefan 72, are two:

1. The cheating made by Ferrari is not worse than anybody else's.(Unless
there are "other" factors involved).

2. That treating the McLaren cheating like if it was some kind of minor offense or "whats the big deal' is not a view we should accept as valid.
We need to have some standards here, and we need to have the courage and the honesty to call things for what they are. So, if it is cheating well then it will be called cheating. A lot of McLaren fans were honorable enough to have the courage to aknowledge in full the facts as they happened and moved on. Some other fans are still (I mean STILL even after McLaren own admissions) stuck in their denial. I know its not pretty, but if it would have been Ferrari who would have done that, I would have been very embaressed by it but in terms of defending it, in light of so much EVIDENCE, that thought would even not have crossed my mind.
So, what I am saying is, simply, if it looks like it's cheating, if it feels like cheating, if everyone calls it cheating, (even the cheater) then........IT'S CHEATING (and not minor).

[wmcot]

I think you'd be a fool to think any team stops looking for an advantage regardless of whether they were caught or not. Toyota got away with exactly the same thing because they weren't a threat to Ferrari which is a joke.


A 2 part answer for you:

1. It's time to draw a line in the sand as to what is acceptable and what isn't. Possession of another team's technical manual and a "mole" giving up to date data and then using these developments in your own design are not acceptable.

2. Sadly, Toyota is still a joke!

[Osella]

Interesting passage from the Renault vs McLaren showing just how deluded McLaren are!..

"McLaren was the first team to run a seamless-shift gearbox in 2005. It was common knowledge that it had done so, but no-one knew, at that time or for a significant thereafter, how this was achieved."

Really...because I knew how it was achieved before McLaren ran it in F1!! Okay, I would have no idea how you design it for a McLaren F1 car use, but if I know how a seamless-shift box works, I'm pretty sure that most F1 designers would!.. And I also believe, from the company that created the first motorsport seamless-shift box ( and tested it in a McLaren in 1992! that Honda took one apart and reverse-engineered it as they applied for Japanese patents for the idea in 1994...

Also apparently "The McLaren car had the optimal weight distribution in 2007" So what, they decided to lengthen their wheelbase despite having 'the optimal weight distribution' and having possesion of Ferrari's documents made no difference huh..? No wonder the FIA don't believe McLaren half the time!!

[Valve Bounce]

For a start, the FIA should check the 2008 McLaren cars thoroughly, and anything with Ferrari stamped on it would be sus.

[PSfan]

Interesting passage from the Renault vs McLaren showing just how deluded McLaren are!..

"McLaren was the first team to run a seamless-shift gearbox in 2005. It was common knowledge that it had done so, but no-one knew, at that time or for a significant thereafter, how this was achieved."

Really...because I knew how it was achieved before McLaren ran it in F1!! Okay, I would have no idea how you design it for a McLaren F1 car use, but if I know how a seamless-shift box works, I'm pretty sure that most F1 designers would!.. And I also believe, from the company that created the first motorsport seamless-shift box ( and tested it in a McLaren in 1992! that Honda took one apart and reverse-engineered it as they applied for Japanese patents for the idea in 1994...

Also apparently "The McLaren car had the optimal weight distribution in 2007" So what, they decided to lengthen their wheelbase despite having 'the optimal weight distribution' and having possesion of Ferrari's documents made no difference huh..? No wonder the FIA don't believe McLaren half the time!!

Oh my [redacted – offensive] I have just tried to read the Renault hearing transcript and[redacted – offensive]!!! I now know why those [redacted – offensive] at Mclaren are in so much trouble, They hire complete [redacted – offensive] to represent them at these hearings!!! You have limited time, why the [redacted – offensive] do you need to ask the same [redacted – offensive] question 5 [redacted – offensive] times!!! [redacted – offensive]

Oh and there witnesss trying to explain the value of the drawings!!! [redacted – offensive] How many championships does Renault have in the last 5 years? And how many does Mclaren have? And you think they would depend on McLaren weight distribution to fix their car in 08?!?!?! [redacted – offensive]!!!!!

I guess it wasn’t a total loss though… had to pick myself off the floor when Max had his say about the McLaren engineering Director Mr. Paddy Lowe (hey [redacted – offensive] they asked for your name!!! not what people call you in the shop? OR IS PATRICK to [redacted – offensive] to remember!!!) Anyway can anyone imagine Max Mosley hosting “weakest link”? well now I can. Quote of the hearing has to be “You cannot help us on this. This is fairly clear” YAH MAX :p

And at the end of the day, what really is shamefull is that McLaren fanatics are all up in arms about Renault not getting punished, complaining of FIA bias when Renault admit to everything, and we end up getting a [redacted – offensive] hearing like this, while Mac is suspected of worse, admit to less, and apologize for it, and that hearing is gonna be called off? [redacted – offensive] [redacted – offensive] [redacted – offensive] [redacted – offensive] [redacted – offensive]!!!

Oh and thanks Osella, had it not been for your post, I wouldn’t have looked up the transcript [redacted – offensive]

:p : :p : :p :

[mstillhere]

And at the end of the day, what really is shamefull is that McLaren fanatics are all up in arms about Renault not getting punished, complaining of FIA bias when Renault admit to everything, and we end up getting a [redacted – offensive] hearing like this, while Mac is suspected of worse, admit to less, and apologize for it, and that hearing is gonna be called off? [redacted – offensive] [redacted – offensive] [redacted – offensive] [redacted – offensive] [redacted – offensive]!!!

Hear! Hear! Hear!!!!!!!!!!!! I totally second that!!

[jso1985]

I'm having hard time understanding how anyone can be the fan or supporter of a team of proven liars and cheaters?!
Really, to support or like a team you have to identify yourself, at least a little bit, with their way of doing things. And in McLaren's case it isn't obvious what kind of positives are there to identify yourself with. :\

maybe because McLaren is much more than just the 2007 spy scandal?

or I could ask how could you kept being a Schumacher fan after the 97 season when it was sort of clear that he was a dirty driver without much sporting sense?

[wmcot]

maybe because McLaren is much more than just the 2007 spy scandal?

or I could ask how could you kept being a Schumacher fan after the 97 season when it was sort of clear that he was a dirty driver without much sporting sense?

To paraphrase your words, "97 was much more than one corner!"

[ioan]

maybe because McLaren is much more than just the 2007 spy scandal?

or I could ask how could you kept being a Schumacher fan after the 97 season when it was sort of clear that he was a dirty driver without much sporting sense?

He didn't lie about it! :rolleyes:

[SGWilko]

He didn't lie about it! :rolleyes:

I think the '94 incident at Adelaide was more of a black spot on the Schumi register, he was quite coy for some time about that, claiming the car damage caused him to turn the wheel and hit Hill. Schumi was also quite personally nasty about Hill's family, although he did apologise at a later date......

That for me, kicked off my dislike for Michael. I still respect his achievments, and think he has natural talent in bucketloads, he was/is just too ruthless and that blots hits copybook for me......

[ArrowsFA1]

He didn't lie about it! :rolleyes:
This is what he had to say in the immediate aftermath of Jerez:

"I do not feel I made a mistake. I was called to see the Stewards after the race, but that is just normal procedure as the marshals have to make a report about the incident. As expected, no action was taken against me."
It was only after the general condemnation of his actions, and the announcement of a FIA hearing, that on the Tuesday after the race MS admitted (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns01331.html) he had made a mistake.

Had it been Ron Dennis, and not Michael Schumacher, I suspect you may have said he lied about it.

[BDunnell]

This sort of discussion sums up why I can rarely be bothered to post here any more. Too many people here aren't real F1 fans at all, and have memories that are so selective and short-termist that they are unable to contribute much of interest. I say this despite my change of view on the McLaren punishment.

[Rollo]

Does anyone know what was brought to bear to Ligier over the JS41, which was for all intents and purposes a copy of the B194 but with Mugen power?

The question is to do with what sort of intellectual property McLaren has absorbed and how you in fact prove that on the new car. My obvious question is to do with scruitneering - ie/ if all cars are FIA approved in the first place and checked, who at the FIA didn't do their job when similar bits started appearing on rival's cars? How do you prove that they did or didn't?

As a fan, we're so far removed from the technical data, that it scarcely matters for us, but for the teams themselves, it equates to loads and loads of nicker.

[markabilly]

So bottom line, name one thing that has really changed?

One thing, other than Mac has a lighter pocketbook, and Bernie still wants hamster to have a WDC to enhance revenue?


Nothing

Well okay something--let the cheaters get away with anything as long as it is good for revenue

[SGWilko]

Does anyone know what was brought to bear to Ligier over the JS41, which was for all intents and purposes a copy of the B194 but with Mugen power?

The question is to do with what sort of intellectual property McLaren has absorbed and how you in fact prove that on the new car. My obvious question is to do with scruitneering - ie/ if all cars are FIA approved in the first place and checked, who at the FIA didn't do their job when similar bits started appearing on rival's cars? How do you prove that they did or didn't?

As a fan, we're so far removed from the technical data, that it scarcely matters for us, but for the teams themselves, it equates to loads and loads of nicker.

That is a good point there Rollo, although IIRC the Ligier was hardly at the sharp end of the grid that season. The other comparison is probably the Sauber (can't remember which year) which some poeple up and down the pit lane thought looked a lot like the previous years Ferrari, again, they were no t challenging for wins though.....

I guess the conclusion on the scrutineers is that they no zip all......? :)

[markabilly]

That is a good point there Rollo, although IIRC the Ligier was hardly at the sharp end of the grid that season. The other comparison is probably the Sauber (can't remember which year) which some poeple up and down the pit lane thought looked a lot like the previous years Ferrari, again, they were no t challenging for wins though.....

I guess the conclusion on the scrutineers is that they no zip all......? :)
As long as it does not affect revenue, then it is OK--However, in the case of MAc, there was a clear case of intellectual property, plus current race strategy being involved in the exchange

Perhaps it is time to have some "rule clarification" with specific guidlines---

When is cheating okay and when is it not?

Ok if data is a year old?
Not okay if it concerns race strategy for next race?
Would it just be easier to have a rule, where anyone can buy a car that just finished a race, say for ten million or whatever, and do with it what they like--including enter it in the next race?

Or if you enter your car into competition as a manaufacture in F1, you hereby surrender intellectual property rights, completely or partially as the part of the price or consideration for enterring the races?
If it truly should be a driver's championship, then time for some changes.

Other wise, it is just garbage being swept under the rug

Had it been Ron Dennis, and not Michael Schumacher, I suspect you may have said he lied about it.

Whereas I suspect you would have been claiming it was all the FIA's fault and that such things had been going on in F1 for years so was a fuss about nothing.

Does anyone know what was brought to bear to Ligier over the JS41, which was for all intents and purposes a copy of the B194 but with Mugen power?

The question is to do with what sort of intellectual property McLaren has absorbed and how you in fact prove that on the new car.

It's not quite the same.

If Ron Dennis owned both Mclaren & Ferrari (God Forbid such blasphemy!!!) then it would be the same

In the case of the Ligier JS41, it was probably more akin to the Red Bull/Toro Rosso scenario we have now.

[ArrowsFA1]

Whereas I suspect you would have been claiming it was all the FIA's fault and that such things had been going on in F1 for years so was a fuss about nothing.
Ahhhh tamburello, what a surprise :p :laugh:

[markabilly]

As long as it does not affect revenue, then it is OK--However, in the case of MAc, there was a clear case of intellectual property, plus current race strategy being involved in the exchange

Perhaps it is time to have some "rule clarification" with specific guidlines---

When is cheating okay and when is it not?

Ok if data is a year old?
Not okay if it concerns race strategy for next race?
Would it just be easier to have a rule, where anyone can buy a car that just finished a race, say for ten million or whatever, and do with it what they like--including enter it in the next race?

Or if you enter your car into competition as a manaufacture in F1, you hereby surrender intellectual property rights, completely or partially as the part of the price or consideration for enterring the races?
If it truly should be a driver's championship, then time for some changes.

Other wise, it is just garbage being swept under the rug


And a team in possession of such illegal information outside established gudelines suffers an automatic ban for two races, but only if they immediately report it--showing we made no use of it, is not a defense. Any management personnel who become aware of it and do not report it immediately, the team suffers an 8 race ban

Bans include the entire team from owner to driver to janitor for races.


Employees who take the material are banned for life. Employees who view the material or otherwise become aware of it and do not immediately publicly report it are banned for four years--including anyone, such as RD

Simple

As it stands now, we have a car that is based on stolen material racing for both a WDC and A WCC for 2008--twist and squirm, but that is what is a Mac for 2008.

May be equally true of Renault, who really knows?
But possession with stiff penalties eliminates the temptation and the presence of theft.

[BDunnell]

Whereas I suspect you would have been claiming it was all the FIA's fault and that such things had been going on in F1 for years so was a fuss about nothing.

Both can be true. Schumacher committed some dirty deeds and so have certain people within McLaren. Thinking one way about something doesn't automatically have to mean that you have an opposing view on the other matter.

[Bagwan]

This is what he had to say in the immediate aftermath of Jerez:

It was only after the general condemnation of his actions, and the announcement of a FIA hearing, that on the Tuesday after the race MS admitted (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns01331.html) he had made a mistake.

Had it been Ron Dennis, and not Michael Schumacher, I suspect you may have said he lied about it.

I think it was "deliberate , but instinctual" , wasn't it ?

Though he was vilified for it , I always accepted that statement for face value . I forgave Michael , even though I am one of JV's biggest fans , and even though I don't think Jacques , himself , ever has .

In this case , Michael was generally condemned , and retracted his statement that he didn't think he was in the wrong . It was , after all , not a cut and dried situation , and after public opinion was set , he realized , probably also having looked at the tapes , that the move was rather too aggressive .
He changed his mind . Do you ever do that and consider yourself a liar for having done so ?

In Ron's case , the attitude changed from spouting integrity and criticism of other teams and the governing body , to apology , only after a deeper investigation and utter guilt was found .
I suppose one could still argue that he didn't know what was going on at first , so I guess you could say that in this case Ron was not necessessarily lying , but , given the rest of the facts here , that's beginning to wear a little thin .

Michael's words were retracted .
As far as I know , none of Ron's ever have been , outside of Whitmarsh's statement to the press .

[airshifter]

I think it was "deliberate , but instinctual" , wasn't it ?

Though he was vilified for it , I always accepted that statement for face value . I forgave Michael , even though I am one of JV's biggest fans , and even though I don't think Jacques , himself , ever has .

In this case , Michael was generally condemned , and retracted his statement that he didn't think he was in the wrong . It was , after all , not a cut and dried situation , and after public opinion was set , he realized , probably also having looked at the tapes , that the move was rather too aggressive .
He changed his mind . Do you ever do that and consider yourself a liar for having done so ?

In Ron's case , the attitude changed from spouting integrity and criticism of other teams and the governing body , to apology , only after a deeper investigation and utter guilt was found .
I suppose one could still argue that he didn't know what was going on at first , so I guess you could say that in this case Ron was not necessessarily lying , but , given the rest of the facts here , that's beginning to wear a little thin .

Michael's words were retracted .
As far as I know , none of Ron's ever have been , outside of Whitmarsh's statement to the press .


Bagwan,

A very well put post, and one that I can relate to very much.

I have said in the past I often think MS was his own worst enemy, and this is a great example of that. I don't think some of his actions which have been questioned over the years were something he could control. I think he just did them, with his competitive nature taking over in some cases.

I must also however, put myself in RDs shoes in regards to what happened. He defended his team by instinct. I'm sure he thought people under his team were of a higher caliber than to do these things. Much like MS, he was put in a position to find out he was in the wrong. The investigation seems to have been exhaustive, and though they did find wrongdoings without a doubt, they also found that some things investigated were not at all influenced by the Ferrari IP.


For me to condemn Ron, I would also have to condemn MS. Both were in the wrong but I also think both were certain for a period of time that they were not in the wrong. Maybe if either of the two had not had such a great contribution to the sport I wouldn't give them the benefit of the doubt, but both have had great contributions to the sport.



My primary fear after all of this taking place is that the fans themselves make this situation even worse than it is. The polorized nature of the posts here reflects a portion of the viewers and fans of F1. If the rest of the F1 fans are as biased in either direction as most here seem to be, then a lot of people will never be happy with the punishments or inspections of the new McLaren. This can only lead to long term problems for the sport as part of the fan base clings to conspiracy theories of bias, based on which bias they think is correct.

[mstillhere]

I can't beleive I am reading this. Are you guys still talking about MS and what he did? Did you forget what was the topic of this thread? As somebody else wrote, you McLaren fans are hopeless. Despite the fact that the McLaren team was caught with their hands in the jar, or with their pants down if you prefer, you are still trying to find the way how to justify it. The sentence used by truefan 72, (was it?) "so what? everybody else did it and does it" "big deal" and so on is still in your minds. It's true you are deeply biased and out of any logic way of thinking. Of course, for renault different principles apply, but not for McLaren. As somebody else recently wrote here, reading these posting is an insult to human intelligence. You can twist the facts as you want and for as long as you want, but the facts remain, and they are;

1. McLaren lost the constructors championship for cheating
2. They got fined for cheating
3. They have to restart their 2008 car, because they were found cheating
again (they admitted it themselves)
4. McLaren is still under watch because they could cheat again
5. Ferrari won the constructors championship fair and square.
6. Ferrari won the drivers champioship fair and square

There you have it. And best of all, there is not anything you can do about it. Just hope that your team wont let you down and lie to you again.

[markabilly]

Bagwan,

A very well put post, and one that I can relate to very much.

I have said in the past I often think MS was his own worst enemy, and this is a great example of that. I don't think some of his actions which have been questioned over the years were something he could control. I think he just did them, with his competitive nature taking over in some cases.

I must also however, put myself in RDs shoes in regards to what happened. He defended his team by instinct. I'm sure he thought people under his team were of a higher caliber than to do these things. Much like MS, he was put in a position to find out he was in the wrong. The investigation seems to have been exhaustive, and though they did find wrongdoings without a doubt, they also found that some things investigated were not at all influenced by the Ferrari IP.


For me to condemn Ron, I would also have to condemn MS. Both were in the wrong but I also think both were certain for a period of time that they were not in the wrong. Maybe if either of the two had not had such a great contribution to the sport I wouldn't give them the benefit of the doubt, but both have had great contributions to the sport.



My primary fear after all of this taking place is that the fans themselves make this situation even worse than it is. The polorized nature of the posts here reflects a portion of the viewers and fans of F1. If the rest of the F1 fans are as biased in either direction as most here seem to be, then a lot of people will never be happy with the punishments or inspections of the new McLaren. This can only lead to long term problems for the sport as part of the fan base clings to conspiracy theories of bias, based on which bias they think is correct.

Let me ask, just what did MS knowingly steal by personally acquiring property clearly belonging to someone else-- the actions of common criminals-????Nothing.

And just how did MS perjury himself in his testimony? Nothing again

And how is repeating the truth the same as "clinging to conspiracy theories of bias" where the truth shows, from the mouth of MAc, that they repeatedly lied this season? It ain't

And when will enough fans stand up and demand change when they get disgusted enough with the silliness of mac and the fia in its attemopt to "stage contests" for the benefit of revenue, and turning F1 into a dishnest fiction of competition? As someone who saw the best race, such as Clark, Stewart, Surtees, mario Andretti,Gurney, and most especially, repeatedly saw Bruce Mclaren race and talked to him in the pits, I resent thoroughly the current behavior of formula one and its hypocrisy---as well as the continued association of the name of Bruce with the likes of RD and Bernie.

Time for serious change by raising more hellfire

But of course in the warped logic of certain fans and certain folks like Bernie and MAx, two wrongs always make a right, if good for your team, besides it is more fun to talk about it as though it had substantive merit

or with MaX and Bernie, good for revenue---It really cracks me up when I hear that those two love ferrari--all they love is money, and if the behavior of ferrari had been the same as Mac this year, blantly stealing race strategy secrets for a pending race, with bad blow back for PR, and the concern was such that the backlash might hurt revenue, then never ever doubt that Ferrari would be paying the 100 million.

Geeass, just why do you think that MS would lose an entire season of points for doing one little bump, when Senna did it far more deliberately and repeatedly!!!!!Fear of bad PR........

[Bagwan]

Bagwan,

A very well put post, and one that I can relate to very much.

I have said in the past I often think MS was his own worst enemy, and this is a great example of that. I don't think some of his actions which have been questioned over the years were something he could control. I think he just did them, with his competitive nature taking over in some cases.

I must also however, put myself in RDs shoes in regards to what happened. He defended his team by instinct. I'm sure he thought people under his team were of a higher caliber than to do these things. Much like MS, he was put in a position to find out he was in the wrong. The investigation seems to have been exhaustive, and though they did find wrongdoings without a doubt, they also found that some things investigated were not at all influenced by the Ferrari IP.


For me to condemn Ron, I would also have to condemn MS. Both were in the wrong but I also think both were certain for a period of time that they were not in the wrong. Maybe if either of the two had not had such a great contribution to the sport I wouldn't give them the benefit of the doubt, but both have had great contributions to the sport.



My primary fear after all of this taking place is that the fans themselves make this situation even worse than it is. The polorized nature of the posts here reflects a portion of the viewers and fans of F1. If the rest of the F1 fans are as biased in either direction as most here seem to be, then a lot of people will never be happy with the punishments or inspections of the new McLaren. This can only lead to long term problems for the sport as part of the fan base clings to conspiracy theories of bias, based on which bias they think is correct.

While it is true MS did change his views , we should also note that the stewards had only just given him the all clear at the time .
MS did not chose to slate anyone else's actions either .

Whereas Ron , having a top line employee in possession of illegal data , accused another team , using info likely gleaned from the data itself , and proceeded to proclaim innocence and integrity , having done an in-house search .
That was the time to come forward and make it right , much like Michael did .
Instead , despite having signed to say he was responsible for his team , he claimed innocence .


Fear not that this will find the series polarized . It always has been , and always will be .
We have had Ferrari and McLaren battles before but always with a higher moral ground on which McLaren stood .
That's all that's changed in this .

Ron may be able to restore some faith in himself and his team , but they will always rue the day that Stepney and Coughlan first spoke .
And , though having lost a top notch engineer in Stepney , Ferrari will always relish it .
It is all quiet on the ex-driver comment circuit at present , and Ferrari will be relishing the silence as well .

[Osella]

... the facts remain, and they are;

1. McLaren lost the constructors championship for cheating
2. They got fined for cheating
3. They have to restart their 2008 car, because they were found cheating
again (they admitted it themselves)
4. McLaren is still under watch because they could cheat again
5. Ferrari won the constructors championship fair and square.
6. Ferrari won the drivers champioship fair and square

There you have it. And best of all, there is not anything you can do about it. Just hope that your team wont let you down and lie to you again.

:up: Well said I think.. :bounce:

[wmcot]

I still can't find anyone who can answer my question:

Since McLaren apologized and the FIA closed the case after McLaren agreed to freeze development on "questionable" areas which "may" have been influenced by Ferrari, will their 2008 car still be checked to make sure they have not continued development of stolen technology or will we simply take their good word for it?

[janneppi]

Apparently no one knows yet. ;)
If McLaren isn't winning no one cares, but if it wins, there probably will be some questions from Ferrari.

I think we can all trust FIA to act responsibly if the need arises to further investigate. :p :

[ioan]

Michael's words were retracted .
As far as I know , none of Ron's ever have been , outside of Whitmarsh's statement to the press .

Yep, still waiting for Ron to publicly apologize for all the lies and unfounded accusation he made!

However I doubt that Ron "Sir Smug Face Integrity" Dennis is capable of excusing himself.

[ioan]

Despite the fact that the McLaren team was caught with their hands in the jar, or with their pants down if you prefer...

IMO it's both! :D



1. McLaren lost the constructors championship for cheating.

I disagree. McLaren got less points than Ferrari, even if the team wouldn't have been thrown out of the 2007 championship they wouldn't have won it.
And I think this is important because many McC&L fans will say they only lost because of the ban, but that's false.


5. Ferrari won the constructors championship fair and square.


Exactly, see my above statement.

[ShiftingGears]

And I think this is important because many McC&L fans will say they only lost because of the ban, but that's false.


Yes, but only because of that farcical penalty handed out at Hungary.

[markabilly]

Yes, but only because of that farcical penalty handed out at Hungary.
For whom you can thank Lewis for starting and seeing to it his daddy went to the FIA...wonder who has the record for making complaints to the FIA for the actions of his teamate?

And who managed to get his teamate penalized by acting up, as well as his team investigated and penalized by his complaints to the FIA outide the team?

FA never made one complaint last year to the FIA, although certain Spanish newpsaper complained loudly to the public....

So as a rookie, LH already holds the record over MS and every one else I can think of in that department :down:

So much for sportsmanship....

I still can't find anyone who can answer my question:

Since McLaren apologized and the FIA closed the case after McLaren agreed to freeze development on "questionable" areas which "may" have been influenced by Ferrari, will their 2008 car still be checked to make sure they have not continued development of stolen technology or will we simply take their good word for it?

No word from the FIA, but it appears that some people will be insisting on the FIA checking....

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64451

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64438

[BDunnell]

I can't beleive I am reading this. Are you guys still talking about MS and what he did? Did you forget what was the topic of this thread? As somebody else wrote, you McLaren fans are hopeless. Despite the fact that the McLaren team was caught with their hands in the jar, or with their pants down if you prefer, you are still trying to find the way how to justify it. The sentence used by truefan 72, (was it?) "so what? everybody else did it and does it" "big deal" and so on is still in your minds. It's true you are deeply biased and out of any logic way of thinking. Of course, for renault different principles apply, but not for McLaren. As somebody else recently wrote here, reading these posting is an insult to human intelligence. You can twist the facts as you want and for as long as you want, but the facts remain, and they are;

1. McLaren lost the constructors championship for cheating
2. They got fined for cheating
3. They have to restart their 2008 car, because they were found cheating
again (they admitted it themselves)
4. McLaren is still under watch because they could cheat again
5. Ferrari won the constructors championship fair and square.
6. Ferrari won the drivers champioship fair and square

There you have it. And best of all, there is not anything you can do about it. Just hope that your team wont let you down and lie to you again.

You are ignoring the fact that there are people commenting here who are not fans of one team over another.

[Bagwan]

No word from the FIA, but it appears that some people will be insisting on the FIA checking....

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64451

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64438

Aldo has a good point there .
At what point in the design process on the systems said to be under development moratoria , are they to be frozen ?

If they are to have elements of design that are suspect , should they merely freeze it now , or do they just put in this year's parts even though even they might contain aspects designed which directly combat weaknesses in the Ferrari platform recognized through study of illegal data .

Even if they are forced to go back to the '06 platform , the still retain knowledge in every head that saw the docs .

In the end , Ferrari did a lot of testing for them , and I have no idea whether it was $100million worth , but they will have to accept that McLaren paid for thier sins .


They are right about the apology as well .
It was rife with qualifications , making the job of the apologist much easier .

[ioan]

No word from the FIA, but it appears that some people will be insisting on the FIA checking....

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64451

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64438

And they are right to do it. Who can blame them for not trusting such liars?!

[Valve Bounce]

It seems from the links above that Ferrari are still far from happy about the Spygate affair. I just wonder what the substance of the 2008 clearance will be? How on earth can anyone really determine whether any new McLaren developments came from Ferrari or whether they thought it up all by themselves?

[Valve Bounce]

Here's an even better read than the Autosport links: http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3261_2976784,00.html

[jso1985]

I can't beleive I am reading this. Are you guys still talking about MS and what he did? Did you forget what was the topic of this thread? As somebody else wrote, you McLaren fans are hopeless. Despite the fact that the McLaren team was caught with their hands in the jar, or with their pants down if you prefer, you are still trying to find the way how to justify it. The sentence used by truefan 72, (was it?) "so what? everybody else did it and does it" "big deal" and so on is still in your minds. It's true you are deeply biased and out of any logic way of thinking. Of course, for renault different principles apply, but not for McLaren. As somebody else recently wrote here, reading these posting is an insult to human intelligence. You can twist the facts as you want and for as long as you want, but the facts remain, and they are;

1. McLaren lost the constructors championship for cheating
2. They got fined for cheating
3. They have to restart their 2008 car, because they were found cheating
again (they admitted it themselves)
4. McLaren is still under watch because they could cheat again
5. Ferrari won the constructors championship fair and square.
6. Ferrari won the drivers champioship fair and square

There you have it. And best of all, there is not anything you can do about it. Just hope that your team wont let you down and lie to you again.

I'm noy trying to justify their actions, they cheated in an awful way and worse they lied about it, and they got punished for it.

What I'm arguing it's why the need of keep on bashing them and demanding even more punishment or even worse start to demand the fans to stop supporting them

[Valve Bounce]

I'm noy trying to justify their actions, they cheated in an awful way and worse they lied about it, and they got punished for it.

What I'm arguing it's why the need of keep on bashing them and demanding even more punishment or even worse start to demand the fans to stop supporting them


I wonder why?? What a strange thing to happen!! how puzzling!! Maybe they ought to be praised for coming clean with such a magnificent apology from the bottom of their heart!! Or was it from the heart of the bottom?? Not sure!!

[wmcot]

I'm noy trying to justify their actions, they cheated in an awful way and worse they lied about it, and they got punished for it.

What I'm arguing it's why the need of keep on bashing them and demanding even more punishment or even worse start to demand the fans to stop supporting them

Because from the language in their letter of "apology" it seems that they may be still using the data and developing systems for their 2008 car from it! Nobody (except McLaren) knows for certain, so how do we trust them?

[ioan]

I'm noy trying to justify their actions, they cheated in an awful way and worse they lied about it, and they got punished for it.

What I'm arguing it's why the need of keep on bashing them and demanding even more punishment or even worse start to demand the fans to stop supporting them

Wait a second, they deserve all they get at this moment. They lied, they cheated and they got caught with the hand in the jar and the pants down!

As for the fans, no one asked you to stop supporting them, but to defend them like Arrows and others do (throwing mud at Ferrari) when it's clear that McLaren are the ones at fault it's /= supporting them its more fanaticism with a lack of reasoning.

Also if you feel that the level of criticism is to high than I'll have to paraphrase Ron "integrity" Dennis:

If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen

:D

[Garry Walker]

Ahhhh tamburello, what a surprise :p :laugh:

He was stating what we all think.


I find it funny how some people are comparing something done in the heat of a moment by a driver on track (there have been thousands of more dirty driving tactics in racing applied, but the only difference is that MS vs JV was for the title in the last race), to a systematic cheating and lying committed by many people for a long period of time in McLaren. This speaks for the lack of intelligence on the part of these people, or lack of honesty.

I also found it shocking how some people are still defending McLaren over this. Come on, stop embarrasing yourselves, you are all looking like dishonest crooks.

[ArrowsFA1]

...to defend them like Arrows and others do (throwing mud at Ferrari) when it's clear that McLaren are the ones at fault it's /= supporting them its more fanaticism with a lack of reasoning...
I accept the responsibility McLaren have for this situation, but equally I will defend them against the extreme nature of the attacks on the team, and team personnel which, in my view, have often been deliberately malicious and based on little more than the fact that McLaren have traditionally been Ferrari's main rivals (we've talked about the 1976 season before).

I can also understand the anger that Ferrari and their fans feel at what has happened. However, the FIA have been vigorous in their pursuit of this case, and McLaren have been penalised. The damage in terms of loss of the WCC, $100m fine, loss of reputation and possible loss of other income as a result of this case is extensive. You have to wonder had the FIA been "invited" to rule on the Toyota case would we be where we are now, but Toyota weren't a threat so we'll never know.

I also think that, looking at the three most recent case of IP theft, there are many questions yet to be answered about the FIA's handling of this issue. MM's attacks on people I have a great deal of respect for has been unacceptable, in my view, for a man in his position. The opinions expressed may not have benefitted from the full facts (only the FIA had those), but individuals are entitled to express their opinion, as we are here on this forum. The response of the FIA, in some cases, has been little more than that of a schoolyard bully, and that has damaged F1 IMHO.

In general this whole situation has raised far more questions than it has answered, and unfortunately I have been criticised for asking questions, and that has led to some chosing to present me as a rabid McLaren fan (untrue) but they also tend to be those who see this case in very simplistic terms - McLaren = Evil. Ferrari = Good - Sorry, but life and F1 is not that simple and things aren't always as they seem.

Happy Christmas and a Very Happy New Year to All :cool:

[SGWilko]

Happy Christmas and a Very Happy New Year to All :cool:

Anyone going to argue with that statement? ;)

[ioan]

...but they also tend to be those who see this case in very simplistic terms - McLaren = Evil. Ferrari = Good - Sorry, but life and F1 is not that simple and things aren't always as they seem.

In this case it's exactly like that:

McLaren = Evil (I would also add stupid to that). Ferrari = Good


Happy Christmas and a Very Happy New Year to All :cool:

The same to you Arrows! :)

Anyone going to argue with that statement? ;)




Happy Christmas and a Very Happy New Year to All :cool:

"With greatest respect to the authors of the report, we do not agree with all of the conclusions"

Since that's the Mclaren approach, I'm sure it will do for their biggest refusenik.

I will defend them against the extreme nature of the attacks on the team, and team personnel which, in my view, have often been deliberately malicious and based on little more than the fact that McLaren have traditionally been Ferrari's main rivals

Based on little more than the fact that they have traditionally been Ferrari's main rivals?

You are fooling no one but yourself.

The Mclaren statement admits that the team and team personnel lied to the FIA and Ferrari.

Read it again - http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2007/12/7176.html

McLaren’s statement in full:

“As a result of the investigations carried out by the Federation Internationale de l'Automobile it has become clear that Ferrari information was more widely disseminated within McLaren than was previously communicated. McLaren greatly regrets that its own investigations did not identify this material and has written to the World Motor Sport Council to apologise for this.

“McLaren has written a letter to the FIA which in the interests of transparency it is publishing with this press statement. That letter speaks for itself and the sentiments expressed in it are sincerely held by McLaren. McLaren has also written to the World Motor Sport Council to apologise that it has taken an FIA investigation to find this information and have expressed our deep regret that our understanding of the facts was improved as a result of the FIA inspection rather than our own investigations. McLaren has recognised that this entire situation could have been avoided if we had informed Ferrari and the FIA about Nigel Stepney's first communication when it came to our attention. We are, of course, embarrassed by the successive disclosures and have apologised unreservedly to the FIA World Motor Sport Council.

“To avoid even the possibility of Ferrari information influencing our performance during 2008, McLaren has offered a set of detailed undertakings to the FIA which will impose a moratorium on development in relation to three separate systems. During the course of these incidents, McLaren has conducted a thorough review of its policies and procedures regarding the recruitment and management of staff. The proposals arising from this thorough review have been disclosed to the FIA and McLaren has agreed to demonstrate that all of these policies and procedures have been fully implemented.

“McLaren wish to make a public apology to the FIA, Ferrari, the Formula 1 community and to Formula 1 fans throughout the world and offer their assurance that changes are now being made which will ensure that nothing comparable to what has taken place will ever happen again. McLaren have also agreed to pay the costs incurred by the FIA for their investigation.

“McLaren now wishes to put these matters behind it and to move forward focusing on the 2008 season.”

The attacks on a team who systematically lied throughout the season are wholly deserved, as is my utter contempt for your whole denial-based statement.

To those who can recognise the disgrace that Mclaren have brought on themselves and the sport I offer a 'Happy New Year'

To those still in denial all I can offer is my deepest sympathy for their moral bankruptcy.

[ArrowsFA1]

You are fooling no one but yourself.
Not at all because what I was saying in the point you quoted relates to the very thing you illustrate here. The attacks on McLaren have been personal and malicious at times. Describing me as the "biggest refusenik", and accusing me of "moral bankruptcy" goes down that same road, and yet you chose to ignore the fact that I say "I accept the responsibility McLaren have for this situation", among other parts of my post, because that doesn't fit your agenda.

Our opinions on this subject differ. Normally I have no problem with that with anyone as I came here to talk about motorsport, and share and discuss opinions with others. When I have explained that to you before you've made your views towards me personally quite clear. Consequently I have made use of the 'ignore' feature for the first time.

The attacks on a team who systematically lied throughout the season are wholly deserved, as is my utter contempt for your whole denial-based statement.

To those still in denial all I can offer is my deepest sympathy for their moral bankruptcy.
Merry Christmas :s anta:

Consequently I have made use of the 'ignore' feature for the first time.

Evidently it's easier to do that than express regret for your arguments lack of substance, although I was under the impression you'd been operating an 'ignore' function policy with every post that contradicts you anyway.

[markabilly]

.

.......

Merry Christmas :s anta:
It seems Mac to have had a very early visit from Santa this year!!

[mstillhere]

Not at all because what I was saying in the point you quoted relates to the very thing you illustrate here. The attacks on McLaren have been personal and malicious at times. Describing me as the "biggest refusenik", and accusing me of "moral bankruptcy" goes down that same road, and yet you chose to ignore the fact that I say "I accept the responsibility McLaren have for this situation", among other parts of my post, because that doesn't fit your agenda.

Our opinions on this subject differ. Normally I have no problem with that with anyone as I came here to talk about motorsport, and share and discuss opinions with others. When I have explained that to you before you've made your views towards me personally quite clear. Consequently I have made use of the 'ignore' feature for the first time.

Merry Christmas :s anta:

I admire your attachment to your team, Arrows1. Only a true fan would go as far as you have in defending your team.

It has been a great year for Ferrari (yes, an other one :) . I would say the same for McLAren, on the learning side (hopefully).
Looking forward for many more debates with you guys. Merry Christmas and Happy New (RED) Year!!!!! :)

[pino]

Time to put an end to this too, thanks for the contribution Guys...