Renault found Guilty

Just been on BBC Radio

[Osella]

Well, they've been found guilty now, so what does everyone think will be the punishment??

I predict the same as McLaren, exclusion of points from the 2007 constructor's championship, as it doesn't really matter anymore!...

[Andrewmcm]

The guy on the 6 o'clock news on BBC said that there was not going to be a punishment. No idea if that's true!

[Buzz Lightyear]

true. no punishment. this is insane! unless the scrap mclarens fine tomorrow.

[RS]

As Autosport point out, McLaren were not penalised either until they found the emails, phone calls, sms messages.....

[ASCAR24/7/365.5]

in the words of victor meldrew...I DONT BELIVE IT!......the fia have really done it now!...one week saying cheeting is inexcusable and the next letting renault off! utterly discraseful!

[VkmSpouge]

If there was no evidence that Renault were intending to use the information then they are getting the same punishment McLaren got (ie. nothing). The FIA are being consistent.

[markabilly]

If there was no evidence that Renault were intending to use the information then they are getting the same punishment McLaren got (ie. nothing). The FIA are being consistent.
More like " consistently stupid"

[ASCAR24/7/365.5]

consistant my arse!.....how can renault say that they werrent going to use it when 9 employees admitted to looking at it!....its like saying i admit to tieing a woman to a railway track but i didnt mean to get her run over!

[UKOG~Will]

More info:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7129049.stm

[GP-M3]

consistant my arse!.....how can renault say that they werrent going to use it when 9 employees admitted to looking at it!....its like saying i admit to tieing a woman to a railway track but i didnt mean to get her run over!

Nope. McLaren was let off scot free the first time. It was only when they were found definitly using the data, to set testing priorities and for suggested testing strategies that they were penalized.

So this is consistent. If it turns out GF and HK were passing emails regards the Mac data, they can go back to court.

Finally, as I've been pointing out here for months... look what happened to Mac using Ferrari data, from puds to world beaters, and Renault using Mac data, from world beaters to puds... hope you get the idea!

:)

[ASCAR24/7/365.5]

but what i dont get is even if they didnt gain an unfair advantage...they STILL BROKE THE RULES! if there not gonna punish people whats the point in having them!

[Osella]

Well I suggest we all hang fire before castigating the FIA until they reveal the reasons and full hearing transcripts tomorrow...

[TMorel]

and I'm sure that Max will be offering a fully funded seat in McLaren for anyone willing to tell tales just like he offered Alonso and DeLaRosa

[F1boat]

And tomorrow there will be no punishment. The season will be over.

[SGWilko]

And tomorrow there will be no punishment. The season will be over.

With all this talk of 'puds' and the 'season' I guess it must be nearly Christmas.

At least Max is guaranteed 3 cards this year - the one from Ayrton, with the request to get rid of driver aids, one from Flav, and one from old faithful, Billion Dollar Bernard Charles..... ;)

Oh and a GREAT BIG HAMPER from some Italian outfit called Ferrari....... :D

[markabilly]

With all this talk of 'puds' and the 'season' I guess it must be nearly Christmas.

At least Max is guaranteed 3 cards this year - the one from Ayrton, with the request to get rid of driver aids, one from Flav, and one from old faithful, Billion Dollar Bernard Charles..... ;)

Oh and a GREAT BIG HAMPER from some Italian outfit called Ferrari....... :D

don't forgeta big one from Hammy----
without Max and his immunity,
where o where would he
and Freddie be......

:D

[Hawkmoon]

but what i dont get is even if they didnt gain an unfair advantage...they STILL BROKE THE RULES! if there not gonna punish people whats the point in having them!

That sounds a lot like what we were saying about McLaren when they weren't punished the first time. ;)

[truefan72]

As Autosport point out, McLaren were not penalised either until they found the emails, phone calls, sms messages.....

well Renault admitted thatthe info was shared on their computers, and discussed amongst their staff, PRECISELY what McClaren were guilty off to a much,much lesser degree.

So what exactly were McClaren fined $100 million for, I would like a full explanation of the difference between the two cases and why one dsereves no fine and the other the biggest sporting fine in the world!

[ioan]

If there was no evidence that Renault were intending to use the information then they are getting the same punishment McLaren got (ie. nothing). The FIA are being consistent.

Exactly, but the same people who were shouting they want consistency are now against it! :D

[ioan]

So what exactly were McClaren fined $100 million for, I would like a full explanation of the difference between the two cases and why one dsereves no fine and the other the biggest sporting fine in the world!

You should call the FIA hotline than, Max will personally explain it to you. It's a favor he does for McLaren fans in exchange of the $ 100.000.000 that he got from R mcD. :D

[truefan72]

You should call the FIA hotline than, Max will personally explain it to you. It's a favor he does for McLaren fans in exchange of the $ 100.000.000 that he got from R mcD. :D

ioan you make my point for me here
yes, it really had nothing to do with anything but sticking it to Mcclaren and ron Dennis, 'cause MM failed as a team/boss and felt slighted back in the day.

all your false outrage about rules being broken etc,seem to have dissapeared in this case.

please tell me what you think renault did wrong and what a fitting fine should be?

[markabilly]

well Renault admitted thatthe info was shared on their computers, and discussed amongst their staff, PRECISELY what McClaren were guilty off to a much,much lesser degree.

So what exactly were McClaren fined $100 million for, I would like a full explanation of the difference between the two cases and why one dsereves no fine and the other the biggest sporting fine in the world!



and the true full explanation is

[markabilly]

You should call the FIA hotline than, Max will personally explain it to you. It's a favor he does for McLaren fans in exchange of the $ 100.000.000 that he got from R mcD. :D

:roll:
as soon as Max finishes watching Godfather

:imubash:

[Osella]

Well, there is a tale from around 5 years ago that Max Mosley felt immensely frustrated with a certain team boss who was (he felt) in reality not that intelligent (although the team always presented a front of being well organised and aloof from the paddock) and always took legal eagles to FIA/F1 meetings to understand what was being discussed and that said team was not being slighted or disadvantaged in any way.
He also said their sole purpose appeared to be to obstruct common sense and progress and being generally obtuse and obnoxious.

From that time, there are only two team principles who fit that bill; Paul Stoddart and Ron Dennis. Now I don't think anyone would accuse Minardi of being well organised or aloof from the paddock, although Stoddart was certainly obstructive... So yeah, I think there is a lot of ill will between Max and Ron, and I think a lot of the reason comes from Ron, rather than the other way around, especially bearing in mind Ron had been in F1 for around a decade before Max had any big influence (tho' Max was originally in F1 from 70-75/6) and I think he feels a certain amount of resentment towards Max's position..

And you thought Dennis and Alonso had a rocky relationship!

[ioan]

it really had nothing to do with anything but sticking it to Mcclaren and ron Dennis, 'cause MM failed as a team/boss and felt slighted back in the day.

Don't make me laugh!
:laugh:
Sorry I couldn't help it! :rotflmao:


all your false outrage about rules being broken etc,seem to have dissapeared in this case.

please tell me what you think renault did wrong and what a fitting fine should be?

The 2 cases are handled in the same way, and this is because they didn't want to throw McLaren out of F1 at the very first hearing.

I don't agree with what happens in the Renault case As I din't agree in the McLaren case either.

IMO McLaren should have been thrown out of F1 like a bunch of liars and cheaters (as they've been proven to be) and the very same applies to Renault (minus the liars part as they never claimed nothing happened).

I'm just enjoying pointing out the hypocrisy and double standards some of the Mc... fans are displaying (something I was expecting for a while)! :D

[markabilly]

ioan you make my point for me here
yes, it really had nothing to do with anything but sticking it to Mcclaren and ron Dennis, 'cause MM failed as a team/boss and felt slighted back in the day.

all your false outrage about rules being broken etc,seem to have dissapeared in this case.

please tell me what you think renault did wrong and what a fitting fine should be?


If it had been all about sticking it to RD, that would have happenned at the first hearing on Mac, but it did not. It was only when it became so clear that funny business in extremis was going on, that mac was lieing big time and the overwhelmingly bad PR became too hot, thanks to hammy out psyching his team mate causing freddie to scare rd with his vague refeerence (a reference that RD had to know exactly what that was all about so that he blew his own whistle) that the about face and the body slam occurred.

Mac laren has bragged about being a team of intergrity, and it should be clear as they have proved over and over again, that is not true.

But it is all about the money--the real reason Hammy is there after that little fiasco

[ioan]

If it had been all about sticking it to RD, that would have happenned at the first hearing on Mac, but it did not. It was only when it became so clear that funny business in extremis was going on, that mac was lieing big time and the overwhelmingly bad PR became too hot, thanks to hammy out psyching his team mate that the about face and the body slam occurred.

Mac laren has bragged about being a team of intergrity, and it should be clear as they have proved over and over again, that is not true.

But it is all about the money

Man sometimes you make too much sense. ;)

[Ari]

well Renault admitted thatthe info was shared on their computers, and discussed amongst their staff, PRECISELY what McClaren were guilty off to a much,much lesser degree.

So what exactly were McClaren fined $100 million for, I would like a full explanation of the difference between the two cases and why one dsereves no fine and the other the biggest sporting fine in the world!

Could not agree more.

That said, I'm not going to ready the fuel for the fire till I hear of the official explanation from the FIA tomorrow.

[leopard]

I would always recommend BBC radio for the trusted social politic news all over the world.
However they could be right though. :)

[mstillhere]

Where do you guys find t h e s t r e n g t h..................

yawn............zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[CNR]

and the true full explanation is

http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2007/September/190907-01.html

[wmcot]

McLaren weren't punished after being found guilty the first time, Renault weren't punished after being found guilty the first time...it may be wrong, but it's consistent! If Renault was punished we would have just as many people here complaining of the FIA being inconsistent by not punishing McLaren at first.

You can't have it both ways!

[Big Ben]

Don't make me laugh!
:laugh:
Sorry I couldn't help it! :rotflmao:



The 2 cases are handled in the same way, and this is because they didn't want to throw McLaren out of F1 at the very first hearing.

I don't agree with what happens in the Renault case As I din't agree in the McLaren case either.

IMO McLaren should have been thrown out of F1 like a bunch of liars and cheaters (as they've been proven to be) and the very same applies to Renault (minus the liars part as they never claimed nothing happened).

I'm just enjoying pointing out the hypocrisy and double standards some of the Mc... fans are displaying (something I was expecting for a while)! :D

Thanks God Ioan is around to show Mc fans hypocrisy. we could all trust his objectivity . you are the best man to point out hypocrites. Inside info I'd say.

[ioan]

Thanks God Ioan is around to show Mc fans hypocrisy. we could all trust his objectivity . you are the best man to point out hypocrites. Inside info I'd say.

Yep, and you are 4 days late! :p :

[Big Ben]

Yep, and you are 4 days late! :p :

this site didn´t work for some reasons the last few days.

[leopard]

McLaren weren't punished after being found guilty the first time, Renault weren't punished after being found guilty the first time...it may be wrong, but it's consistent! If Renault was punished we would have just as many people here complaining of the FIA being inconsistent by not punishing McLaren at first.

You can't have it both ways!
If Renault were punished then Ferrari has to be wary that their convincing titles were not safe. :)

[Magnum P.I.]

how can renault say that they werrent going to use it when 9 employees admitted to looking at it!

Simple, they looked at it and said "Wow this data from McLaren really sucks, no wonder that havent won a wcc for 10 years, we better not use it". Then they went out to lunch :)

[W8&C]

Renault didn´t need to say they didn´t use the data. They "proofed" they didn´t even understand it:


The fact that Renault fundamentally misunderstood the operation of the system... Guess thats why they wanted Alfonso back, to explain them what they see on the blueprints.

:D

[leopard]

Renault struggled throughout the season this year, like it or not if they significantly bounce back we have to admit the driver's ability energizing the team. :)

[ArrowsFA1]

Well, there is a tale from around 5 years ago that Max Mosley felt immensely frustrated with a certain team boss who was (he felt) in reality not that intelligent...
Something to do with this (http://atlasf1.autosport.com/news/2000/oct/report.php/id/3093/.html) perhaps?

[MAX_THRUST]

I think after Stoddy left for CCWS, I think Max has started to get brave and flex his muscles more. He's certainly put Ron in his place. Not that I feel Ron needed to be.

How corrupt is F1??? Maybe we will find out. So judging by the court hearing the FIA value Renault more than Mercedes.......Mercedes did not threaten to quit F1 if they were fined. Perhaps all the manufactures should start their own series, and make their own rules. Ferrari has been doing it in F1 for years.

[Garry Walker]

I think after Stoddy left for CCWS, I think Max has started to get brave and flex his muscles more. He's certainly put Ron in his place..

I dont think Max ever took Stoddart too seriously.

As for the decision on Renault - WEAK. They didnt have the balls punish Renault from fear of Ghosn pulling the plug and that is weak. Renault should have gotten punished, this decision makes FIA look really weak. WEAK.
I am dissapointed.

[ArrowsFA1]

The transcript from the Renault hearing has been released:

http://www.fia.com/public/Transcript_6_Dec_2007.pdf

[markabilly]

The transcript from the Renault hearing has been released:

http://www.fia.com/public/Transcript_6_Dec_2007.pdf
Perhaps if the redacted parts were not redacted, it would all be clearer, but it seems that the big difference between Mac and Renault, was how Mac handled the investigation against them, as in "we have investigated and there is nothing", unlike Renault. And of course the Mac lawyer making a fuss with MaX about "aggressive" investigation of mac, which never actually occurred until after the stuff about emails came to light, as correctly pointed out by MaX.

As to use, by Renault, there seems to be some viewing, and just maybe or maybe not some design work influenced by the stuff--do not try something because it will not work kind of stuff, but nothing where something was actually built, used and tested based on the Mac data --unlike the type of testing and race strategy used by MAc of ferrari data with the FA emails and then this last inspection of Mac by FIA.

What is apparent is the shoddy nature of the hearing, MaX's domination (did the other members of the council know better than to open their mouths when invited to do so by MaX, or were they just too clueless to be able to ask what time it was---or maybe both?), the argumentative nature of both lawyers who seem to be more concerned about rhetoric rather facts....and the lack of real time devoted to the actual "facts" or even questioning of witnesses---of course without the redactions, then the "appearance" might change. Then 25 minutes of "deliberation" is hardly enough time for maX to tell the other members what to do.....that part that is ommitted there, would certainly be most interesting to hear what they had to say among themselves, if anything other than listen to maX!!!

Grade on the actual hearing: F minus.

Result: What Mac got at the first hearing, because of clear cooperation and disclosure from Renault, which has never happenned from MAc (unless you call disclosure of the FA emails as such, and the latest round of mac investigation where Mac admits to not coming clean, but thanks to the FIA more stuff was found---but then when does cofesssion toa crime warrant "no punishemnt? he confessed to murder, he apolgized to all, promised never to ado it , so okay go free). Or otherwise, it is far more likely that they just did it, cause that is what they did with Mac at the first hearing

Ultimate Conclusion: That the idea of establishing a set of rules and requiring strict observation is a joke, and the real purpose is to use all this to manipulate things to make it a "show" to keep public interest up, because if Mac or Renault were not there in 2008 and putting on a good show, it would damage overall revenue.

This series of hearings is the same as what goes on in "pro Werrstling" in the USA, entertaining in form, worthless as to substantive merit