Build Quality of American Built Cars

[Rollo]

I have been to the USA on several occasions and what I find disappointing, is the fact that American built cars although seemingly "identical" are of a lesser quality than their European counterparts.

Toyota Camry - The Japanese cars are damn well near perfect in terms of panel fit and spot welds; the Australian cars are let down a bit by the quality of paint and plastic fittings, but the American built Camrys appear the shabbiest after a few years.

Ford Focus - The European Focus is a ultimately bland motor car, but it makes up for it by having relatively consistent standards. Whether or not you're excited by them is neither here nor there though.
The US Focus has been restyled a bit and they've improved the all grey interiors with fawns and burgundys in some cases, but they're prone to fatigue and cracking before time.

Astra - Vauxhall, Opel, Holden. Smart little car that although being made by GM suffers from feeling cheap, actually lasts a fair while. However, the Chevrolet Cobalt which is the same damn car with different styling on, doesn't seem to go more than about 4 years without suffering some major failure.

I suspect two factors:
1. That cars suffer a harsher life in the USA because there's not really a viable public transport system. Extra wear would equate to a shorter life.
2. Are cars built more cheaply in the first place as part of a planned obselescence plan? If cars are actually designed to be replaced, are they less though out?

Are my experience and assumptions correct? I'd like some further opinion on this.

[CCFanatic]

You second factor is very correct. The cars are built cheaply because of the stranglehold the UAW(United Auto Workers) Union have on the companies. They force so much money out of the Big Three's pocketbooks that have have become billions of dollars in debt just for pension and health care obligations that were forced upon the companies that they have had to relocate much of their manufactering to Mexico, Canada, and China to help offset the costs of the retirees and current workforce. They have to cut the cost to build the cars, while keeping the price of the cars up, so they can also make a profit of some sort to update and reinvest in their factories so they can still remain comptetive in the world market against Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW, and other comapines who make autos in the US. SUV's are the biggest profit makers for the Big Three as well, hence you see hundreds of these vehicles in the road. In the dealerships. Being built in factories only designed to build them.

[airshifter]

I'd say there are a lot of factors involved.

The unions play a part, as over here lawyers assure that some moron keeps his job. In other countries those morons would be weeded off of the assembly line quicker. All it takes is a few idiots to screw up the many solid workers, and quality goes down.

Wear is another factor, and cheaper gas in the US contributes to excessive use compared to most countries. Combine that with a large disposable income in many US families, and that leads to neglect of a vehicle, since they know they will replace it in an often short period of time.

I personally think that Japanese cars built here seem to have better quality control on average than the US owned companies do. Here and there the US companies do shine, they just need to take those examples and incorporate them into every car they produce. The Corvette design and working teams the the Ford SVO/SVT teams are an excellent example of when US companies do it right.

[Rollo]

The Corvette design and working teams the the Ford SVO/SVT teams are an excellent example of when US companies do it right.

I must ask, are Mercurys and Lincolns actually better built than the equivalent Ford or is the label just an excuse to insert better trim and jack the prices up?

[555-04Q2]

There is no excuse for poorly built cars anymore, unless you purchase a Tata or Chinese manufactured vehicle, in which case you should expect poor quality and reliability at the price.

My 1995 Mazda B1800 one ton truck has done 453000 trouble free kilometers over harsh African roads with no major problems both mechanically and cosmetically.

My 2006 Kia Rio 1.4 High Spec passenger car has now done 137 000 trouble free kilometers over harsh African roads with no major problems both mechanically and cosmetically.

My 1991 Golf 2 GTI 1.8 8V passenger car (sold a few years ago) did about 320000 trouble free kilometers over harsh African roads with no major problems except replacing the clutch a few times from my driving style :p :

My 1990 Opel Monza 1.6 GLS (my student car) did over 300000 trouble free kilometers over harsh African roads with no major problems both mechanically and cosmetically and I punished that car like you wnt believe!!!

My two new cars have only done about 6000 and 30000 kilometers so far respectively, but I will expect the same service from them over the years.

[Powered by Cosworth]

When I was in America, we had a Pontiac G6 Convertible Hard Top. Brand New, 16 Miles on the clock. The Plasticy bits fell off in a couple of days, especially one of the handles on the side of the seats that pulls it forward... It just came off D:

The hard top mechanism was horrible. It was so flimsy and slow, it's going to fail without a doubt in a few years.

I guess this is why Toyota are taking over the American auto industry.

[airshifter]

I must ask, are Mercurys and Lincolns actually better built than the equivalent Ford or is the label just an excuse to insert better trim and jack the prices up?

I'm not sure if build quality differs, but generally the Lincoln/Mercury line offers more creature comforts, and at times has more powerful powerplants available. As an example the Ford Expedition in earlier years had the 2 valve per cylinder 5.4 engine, the Lincoln Navigator had the 4 valve per cylinder 5.4 engine.


I would also think that the market drive is a factor in build quality. While Focus sales in the european market may be high as a percentage, in comparison they are lesser here in the US. They probably concern themselves more with build quality of trucks and SUVs, as more people are driving them.


The US car companies do at times do great things, but then manage to screw them up often. The Ford SVT Lightning is a prime example of that.

[MrJan]

You'd have thought with the miles that are required in America that the build quality would be better. I also wonder about the power sometimes because you see these giant V8s which sound great but push out nothing in terms of BHP. Still at least the Americans have a car industry which is more than can be said for us :)

[CCFanatic]

When I was in America, we had a Pontiac G6 Convertible Hard Top. Brand New, 16 Miles on the clock. The Plasticy bits fell off in a couple of days, especially one of the handles on the side of the seats that pulls it forward... It just came off D:

The hard top mechanism was horrible. It was so flimsy and slow, it's going to fail without a doubt in a few years.

I guess this is why Toyota are taking over the American auto industry.

If you had posted the word rubbish a few times, I'd swear you were Jeremy Clarkson.

[Jag_Warrior]

One thing to remember is that a finished automobile is really just the result of a set of manufacturing processes coming together. The more standardized and "error proofed" those processes, the more likely it is for there to be less variation and defects from one finished product to another. Also we have to remember that the auto assembly processes are fed by parts and sub-assemblies from a myriad of outside suppliers... which compounds the number of manufacturing processes (and potential for variation and defects) that it takes to make a car.

The only way to move away from impressions based on subjectives and anecdotal experiences would be to look at objective data. And in doing so, taking into acount which brands are almost exclusively European or Japanese imports (as far as the country of manufacturing origin), and which tend to be assembled in the U.S. from (mostly) U.S. made parts. Using the PPV (number of defects per 100 vehicles), J.D. Power provides what is considered to be the industry standard (at least in North America - I don't know what measure is most accepted in Europe or Asia).

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/charts/2007130a.gif

The only way to (accurately) compare American vs. Asian or European built (like) models would be to have the same, or similar, data from those models ad compare it to the above. But based on the data here, I wouldn't choose a car (strictly) based on it being built in Euope or Asia.

As for the UAW (or CAW) being a major factor... I'm am anything BUT a fan of unions. But no union members have been involved in high level conceptual design, design engineering, manufacturing engineering, process engineering or cost analysis, as far as I know. If you see a process that yields defects or doesn't produce the expected profit margin, look to corporate or facility management... not the workers. If there are long term employee problems, blame management for not effectively dealing with that situation. But here, out of the Top 5, I see 3 (U.S.) brands that are assembled by union work forces. Based on that, I would call the perception, that unions are to blame for shoddy workmanship, a myth. Toyota is experiencing a good many quality concerns right now. Their work force is non-union, for the most part. Except for unions within their supplier base, they are not touched by the UAW, etc.

[Dave B]

Cars and beer, tradionally the two most important things to men. Why can't America get either of them right? :p

[airshifter]

Cars and beer, tradionally the two most important things to men. Why can't America get either of them right? :p

Because we've known for years that people in other countries have priorities mixed up, and we're quite happy with the build quality of American women. :D





As for the various surveys, I do put some faith in them but find it hard to think that they can account for the expected standard. If I was to buy a high dollar car I would expect much more in quality terms than if I purchased an inexpensive car. Maybe that's just me thinking that way, but to some extent I think within reason all of us know that there is some truth to getting what we pay for.

[tsarcasm]

not just the factories, but the American engineers, don't design as tight of a craft

[Jag_Warrior]

Because we've known for years that people in other countries have priorities mixed up, and we're quite happy with the build quality of American women. :D

Well, especially in southern California, we've got some darn fine plastic surgeons. :D



As for the various surveys, I do put some faith in them but find it hard to think that they can account for the expected standard. If I was to buy a high dollar car I would expect much more in quality terms than if I purchased an inexpensive car. Maybe that's just me thinking that way

I don't really follow other automotive quality measures that closely. But the J.D. Power VDS and IQS only seek to show companies and consumers where a given nameplate or vehicle ranks, versus other nameplates or vehicles. But I believe that what you're saying is generally true. So it's up to the vehicle makers to meet those customer expectations. For example, over the past decade, Mercedes and Jaguar have worked especially hard to improve their quality ratings. Mercedes had it and lost it. Jaguar never had it. But as other marques (Japanese especially) began pushing quality in their wannabe luxury cars (not yet having a pedigree), even the pedigreed marques realized that quality was becoming more important to consumers.



but to some extent I think within reason all of us know that there is some truth to getting what we pay for.

Are we talking about women or cars here? :p

[Jag_Warrior]

not just the factories, but the American engineers, don't design as tight of a craft

I'm not aware of any data or studies which prove that to be the case.

[MrJan]

Well, especially in southern California, we've got some darn fine plastic surgeons. :D

Surely that means that the build quality of the women is so poor that they need a touch up every few years, like touching up a rusty car :p :

Personally I think the likes of Britney, Paris and the women in Sex and the CIty negate most of the attractive, well built American women.

[Jag_Warrior]

Surely that means that the build quality of the women is so poor that they need a touch up every few years, like touching up a rusty car :p :

Nah, it just means that some people have no appreciation for natural beauty. It's the same condition that makes some people put wings, flares, spoilers, giant mufflers and flashing lights under and on their otherwise nice cars. California just happens to be the state that most values the superficial... be it tasteless cars or trashy women.



Personally I think the likes of Britney, Paris and the women in Sex and the CIty negate most of the attractive, well built American women.

Every production day, even Lexus produces "deadheads" that won't start. ;)

[RallyfanNZ]

On that chart it says Ford are quite high. Is that because of the US Fords?
As I have seen no more problems on the European Fords compared to Japanese Honda's.

American Auto Manufacturer Motto: Bigger vehicles for bigger people.

Am I missing the point of that graph?
Per 100 cars there are 150 problems or (1.5 per car)?

[Jag_Warrior]

Yes, in the graph above, only nameplates sold in the U.S. were included. And of that, only models sold in the U.S. contributed to the study.

And yeah, you could break it down, as far as a "per vehice rate", but you lose resolution taking it down that far - so the measure was developed around a batch of 100 cars.

So, above is the Dependability Survey (first 3 years of ownership). Below is the Initial Quality Survey, which covers the first 3 months of ownership. It's also important to remember that not only has the gap between first and last narrowed over the years, the severity of the defects has also lessened over the years. "Deadheads" are not nearly as common (in North America) these days as they were 25+ years ago. Data for other regions will show makes ranked differently.

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/charts/2007088a.GIF

[schmenke]

...we're quite happy with the build quality of American women. :D
...

Yes, but sadly they all seem to suffer from excessive noise pollution :p :

[RallyfanNZ]

And big butts.

Like the new Dodge Viper. Man that had an ass on it.