Australian Election

[Camelopard]

Things are looking so good in the Australian Election (for me any way :p ).

It looks like that Labor will win Government and even better there is a very good chance that John Howard will become only the second Prime Minister in Australia's history to lose his seat :eek: !!!!
How do I get the jumpy thing to work?

[Ranger]

Kevin Rudd and the Australian Labor Party have won the 2007 Federal Election. Howard's seat will be determined by postal votes, defeat looking likely.

John Howard will concede defeat publicly soon.

[Schultz]

I am excited!! To quote big kev. What an amazing night for Australia. After 11 years of Howardocracy we have democracy restored and hopefully a government that will restore what we pride ourselves on: Truth, fairness and accountability.

I am off to celebrate hehe. :D

[Camelopard]

I'll be so glad not to see the smug faces of Abbott and Costello (yes really!), Hockey, Coonan and Downer, not forgetting Howard nor Andrews, nor Ruddock, smiking their way across television screens telling us workers that we 'have never had it so good....' No penalty rates for working nights, nor weekends, no holiday pay, redundacy pay, what's that?
Those that live by the sword, die by the sword............

I'm also so glad that the votes in Western Australia have made made no difference the the election outcome.



Yes......, Really!!!!

[BDunnell]

It's a good outcome in international terms, too, but I would sound a word of warning. I felt exactly the same way when the Conservatives were ousted in the UK in 1997, but it didn't last long...

[Daniel]

Different government same crap. Labor will come out and make some popular decisions and then screw it up. When unemployment rises due to moronic economic mismanagement the workers will realise they've never had it so good when they can't keep up the repayments on the monaro and it gets towed by the repo men. Good luck Australia!

[Drew]

At least they'll be saving a few bob on pulling out of Iraq!

[Ranger]

Different government same crap. Labor will come out and make some popular decisions and then screw it up. When unemployment rises due to moronic economic mismanagement the workers will realise they've never had it so good ...

Jeez, we haven't heard that one before... :rolleyes:

Howard was a big proponent of the saying "The public don't get it wrong" when it comes to election outcomes, and considering Labor won back 16 seats to win and possibly 12 more (they have 6 more already), excuses aside, you'd have to say he's right, because that has to be a pretty accurate reflection.

[Daniel]

There can be no doubt that Howard is the only one to blame for his downfall but Labor won't be any better and that's my point. They'll bring in a couple of popular reforms and get praise for that but then they'll fall flat on their arses and the libs will be back. I give Rudd 2 terms and he's out. Labor have done nothing until the last year or so other than play the negative politics game and that's why the libs went a bit ott. The opposition should always keep the bar stewards honest and labor did nothing of the sort until just recently.

[Ranger]

Labor have done nothing until the last year or so other than play the negative politics game and that's why the libs went a bit ott.
The "Negative politics game" isn't something I wouldn't characterise with the Liberal party over the past 3 election campaigns since 2001 either. What's more, there are other issues that matter apart from the economy, and if the Liberals were more mindful of that then perhaps they would have maintained power.
Well at least I'll get my say next time around. :up:

[mlittle]

After reading some of the news reports on the '07 Australian elections, an interesting thought came to mind; unless I'm mistaken, isn't Australia the latest country to turn out leaders who were too-closely tied to the United States on certain issues, most notably the on-going war in Iraq? :eek: :eek:

[ozrevhead]

They Talk about the economy being so good, they talk about Howard doing a good job yet we have hospital crisis, water shortages because we havent got proper catchment and drainage (we shouldnt have any area that has flooding like far Qld did yesterday), a government that doesnt believe that climate change is important, the cost of living is doubled maybe even trippled for every doller we earn and we are loosing worker rights such as no penalty rates for working nights, nor weekends, no holiday pay, redundacy pay etc.

Great job and economy my foot!

[Schultz]

I just wonder who now will claim Liberal Party leadership. If Alexander Downer takes it I can tell you the party is absolutely rooted hahah. Now that peter Costello is gone, I can only see one viable candidate - Malcom Turbull. He is a man whom I think is quite reasonable, but he has shown his inexperience of late with his paranoid antics before the election and creating division within the government over the Kyoto protocol. He also made the statement that he could not see himself being the leader of the Liberal party any time soon... although he clearly wants it. I bet he didn't see Costello and Howard both going :)

One thing is for sure: The Liberal party needs to make a distinctive change of direction. I believe they need a 'Little L' Liberal who will do everything but operate in the mould of John Howard. They need someone who will shake it up a bit. A man (or woman) who will be pro investment, pro environment and someone who is more socially progressive who has the courage to support gay marriage and to close down some of our detention centres, and to end the pacific solution for immigration. And most importantly, to end an era of liberal politics capitalised by zero accountability and negative fear campaigns.

Either way, this all bodes well for Australian politics and Australian society.


After reading some of the news reports on the '07 Australian elections, an interesting thought came to mind; unless I'm mistaken, isn't Australia the latest country to turn out leaders who were too-closely tied to the United States on certain issues, most notably the on-going war in Iraq? :eek: :eek:

I'm sure that's a small part of it, but this election was mainly based on the new worchoices legislation the former government bought in, which scared alot of people. It would take away fundamental workers rights, and there were alot of cases of people being dismissed, then offered a new Australian Workplace Agreement days later, with a tiny pay rise, but less benefits such as overtime, etc.

Rudd promises to withdraw combat troops in Iraq, but still leave more than half the troops we have there now. We have ships in the Persian Gulf and surveillance aircraft in the area also... not to mention the 2,000 odd troops in Afghanistan that will stay in a Rudd government. It is even possible that we would take our combat troops in Iraq and move them to Afghanistan.

[ozrevhead]

We had a SA Pollie who lost his seat and even as a ALP voter was hoping Christopher Pyne would win as he is too good to loose for any party

Speaking of SA Pollies wait till the rest of the country get a look at Nick Xenophon - they wont know what hit them! :)

[Azumanga Davo]

When unemployment rises due to moronic economic mismanagement the workers will realise they've never had it so good when they can't keep up the repayments on the monaro and it gets towed by the repo men. Good luck Australia!

It's OK, I already know a good tow truck driver, ta.

[Rollo]

After reading some of the news reports on the '07 Australian elections, an interesting thought came to mind; unless I'm mistaken, isn't Australia the latest country to turn out leaders who were too-closely tied to the United States on certain issues, most notably the on-going war in Iraq? :eek: :eek:

I take it that you didn't read any Australian news sources then, because inside this country, the issue of Iraq made bugger all difference to this election.
The Liberal Party ran a fear campaign based on the Labor Party's links to the unions, and the Labor Party spouted crap about "working families".

The Chaser and Roy & HG on JJJ had the best election coverage, and Roy reckoned it was because that Rudd has massive tackle that he won the election whilst Howard was literally impotent.

Now we have PM Ear Wax Eater!

[millencolin]

I'm glad Ruddy won. He's has been our local member here in Griffith for years and he has done a hell of a lot for the local community. I went to school with his son and Kevin always came across as a very polite and genuine person even before he became our local member. i wish him well because I didnt vote for the labor party, i voted for Kevin.


now how about lowering those HECS fees that Howard kept on bloody increasing? :p :

[BDunnell]

I'm glad Ruddy won. He's has been our local member here in Griffith for years and he has done a hell of a lot for the local community. I went to school with his son and Kevin always came across as a very polite and genuine person even before he became our local member. i wish him well because I didnt vote for the labor party, i voted for Kevin.


:up:

That is always a very good basis for supporting a politician. They aren't all *******s, no matter what a lot of ignorant people might think.

[Erki]

I don't know why that is, but I just can't get all excited about politics. :\

I better stick to my own ropes. :)

[raybak]

The main thing that worries me with Labor now having all State governments and Federal as well, there is nothing stopping them from putting in a rise in GST.

Maybe it's time for me to get into politics for the next election.

Ray

[rah]

After reading some of the news reports on the '07 Australian elections, an interesting thought came to mind; unless I'm mistaken, isn't Australia the latest country to turn out leaders who were too-closely tied to the United States on certain issues, most notably the on-going war in Iraq? :eek: :eek:

Hi mate, long time no read. Yeah I think it had an impact. It was certainly one of my voting points.

[rah]

I take it that you didn't read any Australian news sources then, because inside this country, the issue of Iraq made bugger all difference to this election.
The Liberal Party ran a fear campaign based on the Labor Party's links to the unions, and the Labor Party spouted crap about "working families".

The Chaser and Roy & HG on JJJ had the best election coverage, and Roy reckoned it was because that Rudd has massive tackle that he won the election whilst Howard was literally impotent.

Now we have PM Ear Wax Eater!

I think it was still an issue. Both the war and the environment were big issues that neither party really went for. But I do think that more people were thinking about them. They may not have helped Labor, but they definitely hurt Liberal.

Only got to hear a little bit of Roy & HG, but they are tops. They should both be running for PM, maybe with the chasers as the cabinet.

[Rollo]

The main thing that worries me with Labor now having all State governments and Federal as well, there is nothing stopping them from putting in a rise in GST.


Mr Costello before the election was trumpeting the fact that the Federal Government now has a $61bn "Future Fund" and that the six state governments collectively were $52bn in debt.

On Friday, PriceWaterhouseCoopers came out with a report that suggested that the States were having funding withheld by the Federal Government to the tune of $4.9bn a year or if you wish... $53.9bn since Costello was appointed as Treasurer.
State Government debt exists in Australia because the Federal Government has held back funding to the States. Mr Costello himself caused State debt.

A Labor Federal Government would probably pay the states their due until within about 3 years when they all flip back to Liberal.

[millencolin]

A Labor Federal Government would probably pay the states their due until within about 3 years when they all flip back to Liberal.

I dont see a switch to liberal anytime soon, especially here in QLD. there is basically no opposition party, i wouldnt know the opposition leader if he walked past me in the street

[Schultz]

Mr Costello before the election was trumpeting the fact that the Federal Government now has a $61bn "Future Fund" and that the six state governments collectively were $52bn in debt.

On Friday, PriceWaterhouseCoopers came out with a report that suggested that the States were having funding withheld by the Federal Government to the tune of $4.9bn a year or if you wish... $53.9bn since Costello was appointed as Treasurer.
State Government debt exists in Australia because the Federal Government has held back funding to the States. Mr Costello himself caused State debt.

A Labor Federal Government would probably pay the states their due until within about 3 years when they all flip back to Liberal.

See this is one thing that has always got to me. There has been not one political advertisement that has annoyed me more than the map of Australia showing the respective state governments their collective debt. Sure they are in debt, but they raise alot less money than the feds do, while having a greater spending responsibility placed upon them than the commonwealth.

http://www.aph.gov.au/LIBRARY/Pubs/rn/2002-03/03rn13.htm

Because of this, the states rely on tied grants for much of their funding. The idiotic campaigning by the Liberals this election, relied almost soley upon the electors being ignorant to the facts. For this, I am greatly pleased to see the back of John Howard.

[Ranger]

Both the war and the environment were big issues that neither party really went for.
As Basil Fawlty once said, "Don't mention the war!" :D

It is a shame to talk to some classmates of mine, who will soon be eligible to vote, who don't actually vote based on policies offered to them.

Someone also mentioned the supposedly full coffers that Howard and Costello accumulated. Funny how foreign debt, which has now escalated to about $100 billion, had never got a mention, yet it will be up to the incumbent government to fix that debt.
The timing of the Rudd election win was also bad, as a global recession that has been absent since 1992 (including Howard's fortunate tenure as Prime Minister) is now believed to be imminent. It's a shame that Rudd will then get the blame by the public for financial mismanagement, despite it not being his fault.

[Rollo]

The Federal Government as it stands has no Foreign Debt.
http://www.ato.gov.au/budget/2006-07/overview/html/overview_06.htm
Hence the reason why there is a Future Fund.

[Ranger]

The Federal Government as it stands has no Foreign Debt.
http://www.ato.gov.au/budget/2006-07/overview/html/overview_06.htm
Hence the reason why there is a Future Fund.
Look who's the fool now. :\ :p :

[Mark]

Even the most well meaning PM can be corrupted by events. I honestly believe that Tony Blair came to power with the best of intentions, but it didn't always turn out that way.

Why do I find it amusing that a major world leader is called Kevin? :p

[Camelopard]

The timing of the Rudd election win was also bad, as a global recession that has been absent since 1992 (including Howard's fortunate tenure as Prime Minister) is now believed to be imminent. It's a shame that Rudd will then get the blame by the public for financial mismanagement, despite it not being his fault.

Yes that is one of my thoughts as well, it will be a real shame if the financial crisis in the US leads to a major meltdown, I agree that Howard and co have been very lucky with their timiing over the last 10 years, if the Australian economy suffers badly because of a world reccession, we'll get all those Liberal (conservative) voters going on about how Labor has ruined the economy and non of them have ever acknowledged what the last allegedly anti business Labor Government did to free up financial regulations in this country. They also did very unlike Labor things like deregistering the Builders Labourers Federation which was a very nasty old style union run by thugs and often held building companies to ransom. They privatised the State owned Commonwealth Bank, amongst other things....... have to go, work to do........

[Daniel]

Good news!!! Rudd has said he will say "Sorry" straight away. On news of this Aboriginal health issues, socio-economic issues, domestic violence issues and substance abuse was immediately wiped out. Good work Rudd keep up the good work on doing nothing more than looking busy. At the end of the day it'll be nothing more than just words......

[Azumanga Davo]

Only got to hear a little bit of Roy & HG, but they are tops. They should both be running for PM, maybe with the chasers as the cabinet.

Excellent idea. Then we really could say we have a lot of complete jokers in parliament then... :)

[Schultz]

Good news!!! Rudd has said he will say "Sorry" straight away. On news of this Aboriginal health issues, socio-economic issues, domestic violence issues and substance abuse was immediately wiped out. Good work Rudd keep up the good work on doing nothing more than looking busy. At the end of the day it'll be nothing more than just words......

Jeese you are a hard task master Dan. What do you expect? For Rudd to have cured world hunger on his second day of prime ministership? :eek:

[Camelopard]

Jeese you are a hard task master Dan. What do you expect? For Rudd to have cured world hunger on his second day of prime ministership? :eek:

Good post, seeing as he is still only 'Prime Minister ELECT' the guy hasn't even been sworn in yet.

I'll bet he will have an issue getting Mrs J.W. Howard out of Kirribilli House in Sydney though, she seems to think that she has some divine right to live in that place, after all the Official Prime Minister's Residence (The Lodge) was never good enough for her :( .

[Mark]

How does the handover work in Austrialia then?
In the UK the new PM takes over on the morning following the election when they are invited to Buckingham Palace. Does the Queen's representative in Australia perform the same duty?

[Camelopard]

How does the handover work in Austrialia then?
In the UK the new PM takes over on the morning following the election when they are invited to Buckingham Palace. Does the Queen's representative in Australia perform the same duty?

Yes, as far as I know they trundle off to Government House in Canberra to get sworn in. Not sure of the time frame, will have to do some checking.

From http://www.pm.gov.au/

An election for the House of Representatives was held on 24 November 2007 at which the Coalition Government led by the Prime Minister, the Hon John Howard MP, was defeated.

A new Government led by the Leader of the Australian Labor Party, Mr Kevin Rudd MP, is expected to be sworn in by the Governor-General in the near future. In the interim, media content is available on Mr Rudd's website (http://www.kevin07.com.au/). Any comments or messages to Mr Rudd can also be made via Mr Rudd's website (http://www.kevin07.com.au/your-say/your-say/your-say.html)

Mr Howard will remain the caretaker Prime Minister until the new Ministry is sworn in. Until this time any comments or messages to Mr Howard can be made through the following form - Contact the Hon John Howard MP (http://www.pm.gov.au/contact/index.cfm)

Archived material from the former Prime Minister's website is available on the National Library of Australia Pandora archive (http://pandora.nla.gov.au/apps/PandasDelivery/WebObjects/PandasDelivery.woa/wa/tep?pi=10052)

[Daniel]

Jeese you are a hard task master Dan. What do you expect? For Rudd to have cured world hunger on his second day of prime ministership? :eek:
The thing is I see saying "Sorry" as being a very empty thing when the underlying problems have not yet been solved. Imagine if I stole your car and crashed it and said "Sorry" sure it's better than nothing but would you not prefer it if I solved your problem before saying "Sorry, no hard feelings eh wot wot!"

[Schultz]

Danny, the sorry thing to me seems more of a symbolic act. But one that can hopefully really brake down some barriers. The problems I have seen for real reform under the Liberal party has been that they have acted like they are above the indigenous Australians, trying to impose their own values on the people without working with them. Nothing typifies this more than the intervention into the NT.

I am one of those people that actually thinks that cooperation is important for any progress to be made for the wellbeing of the native Australians. I also believe that for cooperation to work, there are underlying issues that need to be addressed. There needs to be a fundamental act by a white Australian PM that expressly and unambiguously shows the Aboriginal people that we want to reconcile with them rather than continue on the path of imperialism that we have so far pursued.

[BDunnell]

Even the most well meaning PM can be corrupted by events. I honestly believe that Tony Blair came to power with the best of intentions, but it didn't always turn out that way.

It is nice to read something positive about the nature of politicians. I used to feel the same about Tony Blair, but now I wonder if I was naive.

[BDunnell]

Danny, the sorry thing to me seems more of a symbolic act. But one that can hopefully really brake down some barriers. The problems I have seen for real reform under the Liberal party has been that they have acted like they are above the indigenous Australians, trying to impose their own values on the people without working with them. Nothing typifies this more than the intervention into the NT.

I am one of those people that actually thinks that cooperation is important for any progress to be made for the wellbeing of the native Australians. I also believe that for cooperation to work, there are underlying issues that need to be addressed. There needs to be a fundamental act by a white Australian PM that expressly and unambiguously shows the Aboriginal people that we want to reconcile with them rather than continue on the path of imperialism that we have so far pursued.

Yes. It's not as if saying sorry immediately precludes anything else being done, is it? Neither has it done any harm.

[Daniel]

Yes. It's not as if saying sorry immediately precludes anything else being done, is it? Neither has it done any harm.
Rather. But has it done any good? :)

[BDunnell]

Rather. But has it done any good? :)

I don't think anyone would expect it to have done so after a day, or however long it's been.

[Daniel]

I don't think anyone would expect it to have done so after a day, or however long it's been.
Well he's not said sorry yet. But will it make a practical difference? I wish it would but sadly it'll just be words :mark:

[Erki]

Well he's not said sorry yet. But will it make a practical difference? I wish it would but sadly it'll just be words :mark:

Indigenous Americans wouldn't say out loud the word "bear", because that would evoke the presence of a bear in their world view. Maybe words aren't so cheap for indigenous peoples.

Placing the guilt of past violence on current Australian population doesn't seem very right to me, either. Although I'm not sure how many people acknowledge the situation, so maybe the "sorry" could open peoples' eyes more?

I dunno, I'm just wondering out loud. :)

[Daniel]

Indigenous Americans wouldn't say out loud the word "bear", because that would evoke the presence of a bear in their world view. Maybe words aren't so cheap for indigenous peoples.

Placing the guilt of past violence on current Australian population doesn't seem very right to me, either. Although I'm not sure how many people acknowledge the situation, so maybe the "sorry" could open peoples' eyes more?

I dunno, I'm just wondering out loud. :)
Exactly. Thing is if there is no guilt how can you say sorry?

A lady near us died after being burgled on the weekend. Am I sorry? No! Why? Because I didn't burgle her house. I think it's incredibly unfortunate but that's about the extent of my feelings on the matter.

I think it would make a lot more sense to better integrate studies into the treatment of the Aborigines in the curriculum in Australia. At school I learnt all about the first years of settlement and the conflicts that came with it but never about the stolen generation.

I think the truth is a far more precious thing than a sorry which isn't really all that heartfelt.

At the end of the day sorry doesn't increase the average life expectancy of an Aboriginal person to that of a "white" australian and it doesn't solve the problems.

Call me what you want but I don't get caught up in airy fairy **** like this. I prefer for real action and not symbolic stuff.

[Garry Walker]

Danny, the sorry thing to me seems more of a symbolic act. But one that can hopefully really brake down some barriers. The problems I have seen for real reform under the Liberal party has been that they have acted like they are above the indigenous Australians, trying to impose their own values on the people without working with them. Nothing typifies this more than the intervention into the NT.

I am one of those people that actually thinks that cooperation is important for any progress to be made for the wellbeing of the native Australians. I also believe that for cooperation to work, there are underlying issues that need to be addressed. There needs to be a fundamental act by a white Australian PM that expressly and unambiguously shows the Aboriginal people that we want to reconcile with them rather than continue on the path of imperialism that we have so far pursued.
Aborigines have been given more than enough help already, it is not the fault of the white man that they are like they are. Let us be serious here, most Aborigines tend to be drunken criminals, who you are advised to keep away from. I have several friends in Australia, in different parts of Australia, who dont know each other. They range from left wing to right wing, with very different backgrounds, education and financial situation. They all have told me about the problem with Aborigines and their opinion on them.
They all sounded remarkably similar and nothing positive was said.

As for Australian elections, always dissapointing to see a left winged party succeed more than a right winged party, but they brought it on themselves with WorkChoices.

[Erki]

Now I don't know if Australians have many national holidays and historic heroes or stuff, so excuse me if I am unjust to our Aussie friends. If you celebrate those things then you (perhaps unknowingly) also celebrate those who did bad to Aboriginal Aussies.


I think it would make a lot more sense to better integrate studies into the treatment of the Aborigines in the curriculum in Australia. At school I learnt all about the first years of settlement and the conflicts that came with it but never about the stolen generation.

Maybe apologising is the first step in that direction...?

[Rollo]

As for Australian elections, always dissapointing to see a left winged party succeed more than a right winged party, but they brought it on themselves with WorkChoices.

Politically both the Labor and the Liberal Party are both rightist parties, it's just that Liberal is futher to the right than Labor. Can I ask why you're disappointed in leftist politics?

[ShiftingGears]

. And most importantly, to end an era of liberal politics capitalised by zero accountability and negative fear campaigns.


I am rather glad about that. Also, Rudd says he will make government more transparent so the government can he held accountable and responsible for their actions. This is a very good thing, and I'm glad he is going to do that after years of Howard trying to keep information from the public in order to keep himself in power.

Also, Rudd is reducing university HECS fees, and increasing scholarship places, starting next year. Very good news.

[millencolin]

Also, Rudd is reducing university HECS fees, and increasing scholarship places, starting next year. Very good news.

he better do it quick, ive only got one year left! thanks a lot Johnny Howard, im more in debt cause of you!!!

[Garry Walker]

Politically both the Labor and the Liberal Party are both rightist parties, it's just that Liberal is futher to the right than Labor. Can I ask why you're disappointed in leftist politics?

Yes you can.
Leftist parties support everything that I am totally against of, everything I despise. Little restrictions on immigration, weak or no punishments for criminals, the rights of criminals often more important than that of the victim, no national pride, positive discrimination and the ridiculous quotas that have been forced (you have to have a certain number of minorities etc). Added to that, leftist parties are to blame for the stupidity kids are taught that it is not winning that counts, but taking parts. In such a way, you are raising losers, but most lefties are that anyway.

Leftist media, with the support of leftist parties are also quick to accuse of racism everyone who dares to say anything about immigration or criticise anything the lefties support. Or dare to criticise gay parades and say that what happens there is often disgusting, you will be branded a homophobe extremist at once.
They are also to blame for the way of thinking that has been forced in peoples heads bigtime, where everyone must apologize for "offending" someone, even when that person was telling the obvious truth.

I really cant find any policies from lefties that I am supportive of and am happy to say that I despise all leftist parties. They are full of weak and pathetic people.

[Daniel]

Yes you can.
Leftist parties support everything that I am totally against of, everything I despise. Little restrictions on immigration, weak or no punishments for criminals, the rights of criminals often more important than that of the victim, no national pride, positive discrimination and the ridiculous quotas that have been forced (you have to have a certain number of minorities etc). Added to that, leftist parties are to blame for the stupidity kids are taught that it is not winning that counts, but taking parts. In such a way, you are raising losers, but most lefties are that anyway.

Leftist media, with the support of leftist parties are also quick to accuse of racism everyone who dares to say anything about immigration or criticise anything the lefties support. Or dare to criticise gay parades and say that what happens there is often disgusting, you will be branded a homophobe extremist at once.
They are also to blame for the way of thinking that has been forced in peoples heads bigtime, where everyone must apologize for "offending" someone, even when that person was telling the obvious truth.

I really cant find any policies from lefties that I am supportive of and am happy to say that I despise all leftist parties. They are full of weak and pathetic people.
Even though I would never vote for a leftish party you appear to be talking absolute rubbish.

[millencolin]

Yes you can.
Leftist parties support everything that I am totally against of, everything I despise. Little restrictions on immigration, weak or no punishments for criminals, the rights of criminals often more important than that of the victim, no national pride, positive discrimination and the ridiculous quotas that have been forced (you have to have a certain number of minorities etc). Added to that, leftist parties are to blame for the stupidity kids are taught that it is not winning that counts, but taking parts. In such a way, you are raising losers, but most lefties are that anyway.

Leftist media, with the support of leftist parties are also quick to accuse of racism everyone who dares to say anything about immigration or criticise anything the lefties support. Or dare to criticise gay parades and say that what happens there is often disgusting, you will be branded a homophobe extremist at once.
They are also to blame for the way of thinking that has been forced in peoples heads bigtime, where everyone must apologize for "offending" someone, even when that person was telling the obvious truth.

I really cant find any policies from lefties that I am supportive of and am happy to say that I despise all leftist parties. They are full of weak and pathetic people.

WOW! What a load of ill-thought through crap!

Before you criticise me of being a 'weak pathetic leftie', Don't, because i'm not. Im not a right either, i just dont care about either! (For proof, check back through this thread and see why i voted for Rudd) But what you have just said is the biggest load of useless pointless dribble posted outside of a ChampCar vs IRL thread. Everyone is now dumber for reading this utter bollocks you just posted.

I hope you dont catergoise everybody into extreme stereotypes, cause if you do i better not mention that I'm a uni student or else you may think i just sit around all day at the uni pub drinking down my Austudy payments.

[Daniel]

WOW! What a load of ill-thought through crap!

Before you criticise me of being a 'weak pathetic leftie', Don't, because i'm not. Im not a right either, i just dont care about either! (For proof, check back through this thread and see why i voted for Rudd) But what you have just said is the biggest load of useless pointless dribble posted outside of a ChampCar vs IRL thread. Everyone is now dumber for reading this utter bollocks you just posted.

I hope you dont catergoise everybody into extreme stereotypes, cause if you do i better not mention that I'm a uni student or else you may think i just sit around all day at the uni pub drinking down my Austudy payments.
Pretty much! I'm a dyed in the wool Liberal voter like I said but there was not one bit of sense there. I think Garry is applying very general (and untrue) stereotypes for left-right politics to a place where they don't even apply in the slightest.

I think Garry thinks Labor is like the Democrats or something.......

Aussie Democrats = Left wing party
Labor = Slightly left of centre

[Schultz]

Aussie Denmocrats = dead, actually.


All I can say is thank christ Gary doesn't get a vote.

[Daniel]

Good stuff on both accounts.

[Camelopard]

Little Johnny has lost his seat...... Only the second Prime Minister in Australia's history to have achieved that feat. Well done!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/01/2106949.htm

He should have quit whilst he was ahead. Now even Costello is saying they would have stood a better chance of retaining government with him as leader rather than Howard.

[penagate]

Aussie Democrats = Left wing party
Labor = Slightly left of centre

Interesting graph:
http://politicalcompass.org/aus2007

The self test on that site is interesting too.

[AJP]

He should have quit whilst he was ahead. Now even Costello is saying they would have stood a better chance of retaining government with him as leader rather than Howard.

Costello is a coward...He has stood in the shadows for so long trying to put his hand up for the leadership but has never done what a true leader should, and take control.
For Costello to come out and say this sort of rubbish now, is nothing more than childish and completely pathetic.
If he thought he had a better chance, why isn't he running for the leadership now to take control? because he knows too right that he wouldn't stand a chance.

[walrus81]

Costello is a coward...He has stood in the shadows for so long trying to put his hand up for the leadership but has never done what a true leader should, and take control.
For Costello to come out and say this sort of rubbish now, is nothing more than childish and completely pathetic.
If he thought he had a better chance, why isn't he running for the leadership now to take control? because he knows too right that he wouldn't stand a chance.
Costello never had the numbers behind him in the party to give him the ability to successfully challenge John Howard, and he's smart enough to know that the best time to be the opposition leader is when the government have been in power for a few terms.

[AJP]

Costello never had the numbers behind him in the party to give him the ability to successfully challenge John Howard, and he's smart enough to know that the best time to be the opposition leader is when the government have been in power for a few terms.
I'm confused with what your saying...if you take your point of view, then now is precisely his time...

[Daniel]

Interesting graph:
http://politicalcompass.org/aus2007

The self test on that site is interesting too.
Quite true. But there is a bit of a shift worldwide to right wing politics now isn't there? :)

[BDunnell]

Quite true. But there is a bit of a shift worldwide to right wing politics now isn't there? :)

I wouldn't necessarily say so. France elected a right-wing leader, yes, but he has thus far proved unable to sort much out. Germany made a bit of a swing to the right at its last federal elections, but the CDU there is relatively inoffensive to most so it wasn't much of a shift. Elsewhere, Poland has got rid of an unpleasant right-wing government that made itself unpopular with large tracts of its population, the USA seems quite likely to ditch the Republicans, Australia has obviously kicked Howard out, and in the UK the Tories probably wouldn't represent a lurch rightwards were they to be elected. There are plenty of examples on both sides.

[BDunnell]

WOW! What a load of ill-thought through crap!

Before you criticise me of being a 'weak pathetic leftie', Don't, because i'm not. Im not a right either, i just dont care about either! (For proof, check back through this thread and see why i voted for Rudd) But what you have just said is the biggest load of useless pointless dribble posted outside of a ChampCar vs IRL thread. Everyone is now dumber for reading this utter bollocks you just posted.

I hope you dont catergoise everybody into extreme stereotypes, cause if you do i better not mention that I'm a uni student or else you may think i just sit around all day at the uni pub drinking down my Austudy payments.

:up: (except that I do care about politics and the outcomes of elections!)

I actually enjoy reading such rants from time to time, because it amuses me that some people feel so threatened by those who don't conform to their narrow stereotypes. For instance, whenever I read or hear someone going on about how they 'feel like a stranger in their own land', or some such nonsense, my first thought is 'Good'. I would hate to live in their entirely conformist, homogenous worlds.

[Malbec]

Yes you can.
Leftist parties support everything that I am totally against of, everything I despise. Little restrictions on immigration, weak or no punishments for criminals, the rights of criminals often more important than that of the victim, no national pride, positive discrimination and the ridiculous quotas that have been forced (you have to have a certain number of minorities etc). Added to that, leftist parties are to blame for the stupidity kids are taught that it is not winning that counts, but taking parts. In such a way, you are raising losers, but most lefties are that anyway.

Leftist media, with the support of leftist parties are also quick to accuse of racism everyone who dares to say anything about immigration or criticise anything the lefties support. Or dare to criticise gay parades and say that what happens there is often disgusting, you will be branded a homophobe extremist at once.
They are also to blame for the way of thinking that has been forced in peoples heads bigtime, where everyone must apologize for "offending" someone, even when that person was telling the obvious truth.

I really cant find any policies from lefties that I am supportive of and am happy to say that I despise all leftist parties. They are full of weak and pathetic people.

This is total nonsense.

I'm not at all ashamed to describe my core beliefs as being right wing, possibly even extreme right wing. That is, I believe strongly that the rights of the individual to have the freedom to make their own choices free and unfettered from interference as long as it doesn't harm others. Core to that belief is that both the state and society view individuals on their own merits without bias due to race, religion, sex/sexual orientation or any other way you wish to divide society up in.

Sadly since its inception, right wing groups have attracted sad inadequates best politely described as conservatives (with a small c) to enshrine and propogate any existing injustices in society. Your views are not right wing, they are conservative.

Much to the right wing's shame it has taken 'lefties' as you describe them that it is not acceptable to deny rights to, imprison or kill people because of their origins, gender, caste, religion or sexual orientation. It has taken 'lefties' to point out that it is not acceptable to invade countries simply because they are weaker than you, that the poor should not be left to die if they can't afford food and medical treatment and that women should have the right to decide what to do with their own bodies.

I'm happier living in a society thats been strongly influenced by the left wing than live with what the 'right wing' has come to mean.

[Daniel]

:up: (except that I do care about politics and the outcomes of elections!)

I actually enjoy reading such rants from time to time, because it amuses me that some people feel so threatened by those who don't conform to their narrow stereotypes. For instance, whenever I read or hear someone going on about how they 'feel like a stranger in their own land', or some such nonsense, my first thought is 'Good'. I would hate to live in their entirely conformist, homogenous worlds.

I'm a stranger in this land and the only things I find strange are the people who feel like they're strangers in their own land. For gods sake man. That Polish guy has a job here because you're a lazy a hole and can't be bothered doing your rather menial job for anything less than a 50k.

We don't have the huge elements of the loony media (Sun, Daily Moan, NotW and so on) in Western Australia and I think that is a big reason why people are fairly nice there and in general you don't get the extreme elements or huge groups of people moaning about stuff that doesn't deserved to be moaned about. People moan about traffic, housing prices and so on. You know.... stuff which actually has an effect on everyday life.

[BDunnell]

This is total nonsense.

I'm not at all ashamed to describe my core beliefs as being right wing, possibly even extreme right wing. That is, I believe strongly that the rights of the individual to have the freedom to make their own choices free and unfettered from interference as long as it doesn't harm others. Core to that belief is that both the state and society view individuals on their own merits without bias due to race, religion, sex/sexual orientation or any other way you wish to divide society up in.

Sadly since its inception, right wing groups have attracted sad inadequates best politely described as conservatives (with a small c) to enshrine and propogate any existing injustices in society. Your views are not right wing, they are conservative.

Much to the right wing's shame it has taken 'lefties' as you describe them that it is not acceptable to deny rights to, imprison or kill people because of their origins, gender, caste, religion or sexual orientation. It has taken 'lefties' to point out that it is not acceptable to invade countries simply because they are weaker than you, that the poor should not be left to die if they can't afford food and medical treatment and that women should have the right to decide what to do with their own bodies.

I'm happier living in a society thats been strongly influenced by the left wing than live with what the 'right wing' has come to mean.

I find your post extremely intriguing, because from your views as expressed on the forum, I wouldn't consider you to be remotely right-wing. I suppose this proves that the terms 'left and right' have little relevance in politics nowadays. I know that, as far as I'm concerned, I take my opinions from a mixture of both.

[BDunnell]

I'm a stranger in this land and the only things I find strange are the people who feel like they're strangers in their own land. For gods sake man. That Polish guy has a job here because you're a lazy a hole and can't be bothered doing your rather menial job for anything less than a 50k.

:up:

And also because the free market, as espoused by the right wing (such as it is) for so long, allows them to.

[Malbec]

I find your post extremely intriguing, because from your views as expressed on the forum, I wouldn't consider you to be remotely right-wing. I suppose this proves that the terms 'left and right' have little relevance in politics nowadays. I know that, as far as I'm concerned, I take my opinions from a mixture of both.


You should do, IIRC in our debates here I've generally come down on the side of freedom of choice for the individual whilst you've tended to go on traditional left wing lines where the government prescribes what the individual should or should not be allowed to do which goes beyond limiting harm to others.

Anyway I described what I view as right wing in my post, I'm a laissez faire capitalist at heart!

[Malbec]

That Polish guy has a job here because you're a lazy a hole and can't be bothered doing your rather menial job for anything less than a 50k.

Not to mention the fact that that Polish guy who is happy to redo your kitchen for a lot less than the local builder is one of the big factors pushing the property boom at mo, letting investors develop properties for a lot less money than before and fuelling profits.

People can't have their cake and eat it. If they are against immigration then they shouldn't be happy to benefit from it either.

[Daniel]

I find your post extremely intriguing, because from your views as expressed on the forum, I wouldn't consider you to be remotely right-wing. I suppose this proves that the terms 'left and right' have little relevance in politics nowadays. I know that, as far as I'm concerned, I take my opinions from a mixture of both.

You post has made me think. Who decided what left and right wing means/meant?

[Daniel]

Not to mention the fact that that Polish guy who is happy to redo your kitchen for a lot less than the local builder is one of the big factors pushing the property boom at mo, letting investors develop properties for a lot less money than before and fuelling profits.

People can't have their cake and eat it. If they are against immigration then they shouldn't be happy to benefit from it either.

Not to mention the fact that while he's doing the work on your kitchen he probably won't spew bollocks and will probably just do his job rather than anything else but.....

My brother's girlfriend is Polish. Not hear her moan once about how horrible things are in the UK. Perhaps that's a good thing ;)

[Malbec]

You post has made me think. Who decided what left and right wing means/meant?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_wing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics

[BDunnell]

You should do, IIRC in our debates here I've generally come down on the side of freedom of choice for the individual whilst you've tended to go on traditional left wing lines where the government prescribes what the individual should or should not be allowed to do which goes beyond limiting harm to others.

Not necessarily, but there are certainly instances where I believe we have too much choice in our lives, and that this isn't always a good thing, especially when it comes to bringing about improvements to essential services. I also believe that the mainstream political parties have an exaggerated level of respect for the abilities of the private sector to provide services, when they have been found wanting in many respects. However, I am a firm believer in meritocracy in all fields and in the basic superiority of capitalism as a system (though it does have its limits, as mentioned). Make of that what you will.

[BDunnell]

Not to mention the fact that while he's doing the work on your kitchen he probably won't spew bollocks and will probably just do his job rather than anything else but.....

My brother's girlfriend is Polish. Not hear her moan once about how horrible things are in the UK. Perhaps that's a good thing ;)

I think it's no coincidence that Poland has just got rid of its reactionary, ignorant right-wing government when you consider that it is a country whose people generally demonstrate a high level of education. This is certainly the case amongst many Polish kids who have flourished in British schools, not least through learning the language quickly.

[Malbec]

Not necessarily, but there are certainly instances where I believe we have too much choice in our lives, and that this isn't always a good thing, especially when it comes to bringing about improvements to essential services. I also believe that the mainstream political parties have an exaggerated level of respect for the abilities of the private sector to provide services, when they have been found wanting in many respects. However, I am a firm believer in meritocracy in all fields and in the basic superiority of capitalism as a system (though it does have its limits, as mentioned). Make of that what you will.

I think its true to say that modern political thinking has become quite blurred but in the original sense of the word right wing. Both mainstream parties strongly subscribe to capitalism and meritocracy which is a good thing. On the other hand there is a strong tendency not to respect the rights of the individual particularly when it comes to privacy in the name of national security.

Incidentally I remember a very good case of right wing thinking diverging from conservative (small C again) thinking when William Hague adopted an anti-immigration stance almost a decade ago. The right wing magazine the Economist immediately launched an immigration special edition that coldly analysed the pros and cons of immigration. Its conclusion was that the evidence supporting the fact that migration is overall of great benefit to society and went on to claim that any party opposing immigration was abandoning core right wing values and was also no longer the party that business should support.

[BDunnell]

I think its true to say that modern political thinking has become quite blurred but in the original sense of the word right wing. Both mainstream parties strongly subscribe to capitalism and meritocracy which is a good thing. On the other hand there is a strong tendency not to respect the rights of the individual particularly when it comes to privacy in the name of national security.

Yes, I agree that British politics has gradually shifted to the right. Perhaps unlike you, I believe this has been damaging to the public services in particular. And about civil liberties and national security, I am in strong agreement with you, as stated before.



Incidentally I remember a very good case of right wing thinking diverging from conservative (small C again) thinking when William Hague adopted an anti-immigration stance almost a decade ago. The right wing magazine the Economist immediately launched an immigration special edition that coldly analysed the pros and cons of immigration. Its conclusion was that the evidence supporting the fact that migration is overall of great benefit to society and went on to claim that any party opposing immigration was abandoning core right wing values and was also no longer the party that business should support.

This is a perfect example of lazy thinking on what we now tend to consider as the 'right'. One sees the same sort of hypocrisy in discussions about that awful phrase 'political correctness'. When confronted with something that really is 'politically incorrect', many of those who go on about the concept invading our lives are offended rather than delighted. There is a complete lack of consistency between the two positions.

[Malbec]

Yes, I agree that British politics has gradually shifted to the right. Perhaps unlike you, I believe this has been damaging to the public services in particular.

In theory I still believe privatising publicly owned services has its place. British Airways or the British motor industry are a case in point. I don't think taxpayers money should be used to keep failing industries going. If they revive themselves in the way BA did post-privatisation thats great, if not like BL then thats tough.

The problem with privatising more essential public services is that it needs to be done with due care and attention which has not been the case in the UK where the 'privatisation' process hasn't been carried out fairly or openly.

You could also strongly argue that there is no place for privatising the more essential services such as healthcare or defense at all.

[Malbec]

My brother's girlfriend is Polish. Not hear her moan once about how horrible things are in the UK. Perhaps that's a good thing ;)

I missed this earlier.

It has to be said that the recent influx of East European women has improved the aesthetics around London no end!

[leopard]

We hope under the new elected PM, we wouldn't be anymore frightening neighbor :)

[Camelopard]

I have thought for a long time that in Australia the Liberal (conservative) and Labor parties have been very similar in a lot of things. In fact I'm sure you could agrue that the 'right wing' of the Labor party is probably more conservative than some parts of the Liberal party and vice versa.
As I stated previously it was the last Labor Government under Bob Hawke that freed up regulations regarding the economy, sold off to the private sector, publicly owned companies like Qantas and the Commonwealth Bank, deregistered a workers union (the BLF) and had a major fight with another union (in the form of a professional body) when the government used Air Force pilots and planes to help break the Pilots strike in 1989.
Which Governement reintroduced University fees?

[Ranger]

Which Governement reintroduced University fees?

Actually I think that was the Hawke government.