Silly Season II

[Valve Bounce]

Couldn't find the original thread.
Heiki and Fisi not wanted at Renault. http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=33419

It will appear that Nelson Piquet Jr will be one member, while Flavio will try to negotiate a deal with Alonso.

[passmeatissue]

Couldn't find the original thread.
Heiki and Fisi not wanted at Renault. http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=33419

It will appear that Nelson Piquet Jr will be one member, while Flavio will try to negotiate a deal with Alonso.

Interesting the story that Carlos Ghosn has got involved, vetoing Flav and insisting on 3 years. If true, a surprising difference and I wonder if Flav is 100% popular there?

Also the poor sales figures for Renault even in Spain, no benefit from the championship wins...if things go badly at the WMSC I could see Fernando not in Renault and not anyone else either. No Concorde agreement yet...

That would put Kovy in at McLaren, you'd think, and a very cross Piquet on the sidelines. Correction, a very, very cross Piquet.

[PSfan]

Interesting the story that Carlos Ghosn has got involved, vetoing Flav and insisting on 3 years. If true, a surprising difference and I wonder if Flav is 100% popular there?

Also the poor sales figures for Renault even in Spain, no benefit from the championship wins...if things go badly at the WMSC I could see Fernando not in Renault and not anyone else either. No Concorde agreement yet...

That would put Kovy in at McLaren, you'd think, and a very cross Piquet on the sidelines. Correction, a very, very cross Piquet.

Nice to see Ghosn insisting on 3 yrs, Renault have already learned about how losing a driver like Alonso affects the team (can also remind himself by reading current articles of sponsors wanting to follow Alonso around) It also be a good cop, bad cop play that Renault are using.

However I think that even if the current spy hearings go terribly bad for Renault, I suspect that even if Renault decide to pull out, there would be 3 or 4 offers to buy the team, and I suspect Briatore would likely take possession of the team, in some capacity


What I find interesting in this, is that under either scenario, whether they get Alonso or not, Renault are to have Piquet in, so why haven't I read anything confirming Piquet next year? or did I just miss it?

[truefan72]

I just wonder what would happen if Piquet showed any kind of form like he did in his final GP2 season. He doesn;t seem like the fellow who would take kindly to playing second fiddle if he clearly can go faster.

[SGWilko]

I know this is not very relevant, so I thought Silly Season was the best place for it.......

What's the difference between Lewis Hamilton and the English national football squad?

Lewis has a future with McLaren!

Ba Dum, Tish! :D

[passmeatissue]

Nice to see Ghosn insisting on 3 yrs, Renault have already learned about how losing a driver like Alonso affects the team (can also remind himself by reading current articles of sponsors wanting to follow Alonso around) It also be a good cop, bad cop play that Renault are using.

However I think that even if the current spy hearings go terribly bad for Renault, I suspect that even if Renault decide to pull out, there would be 3 or 4 offers to buy the team, and I suspect Briatore would likely take possession of the team, in some capacity


What I find interesting in this, is that under either scenario, whether they get Alonso or not, Renault are to have Piquet in, so why haven't I read anything confirming Piquet next year? or did I just miss it?

You are right of course, Renault wouldn't just stick the team in the bin. But the recent team buyers seem to want to DIY, don't they? And Flav might lose a lot of credibility in the course of the hearing.

I like the good cop/bad cop idea, though Flav as the good cop is hard to visualise :) .

See what you mean about Piquet, too. Piquet has no other options, I suppose, so no reason for Flav not to keep his options open?

[CNR]

McLaren adamant Renault gained advantage
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64091


McLaren are adamant that rivals Renault did gain a 'clear benefit and unfair advantage' from the use of the intellectual property that is at the centre of the latest spy controversy surrounding the French car manufacturer, autosport.com has learned



all i can say is what gose around comes around

[millencolin]

What Advantage? Renault was the 4th best team. i dont see any advantage there!

[ShiftingGears]

What Advantage? Renault was the 4th best team. i dont see any advantage there!

Renault contructor points > 0 points for McLaren

Conclusive proof that there's an advantage :D

[leopard]

Renault is now having more chance on gaining back Alonso which is slightly an advantage. :)

[ShiftingGears]

Renault is now having more chance on gaining back Alonso which is slightly an advantage. :)

Actually McLaren getting rid of Alonso could be seen as a definite advantage for McLaren, so I think it balances ;)

[wmcot]

I'm no fan of Ron Dennis, but you have to be fair in this one. If Renault had as much data as claimed, they need to be punished. Interesting that McLaren claims that Renault had 780 drawings of the 2006 & 2007 cars! That number seems to be going around a lot in F1!

[leopard]

Actually McLaren getting rid of Alonso could be seen as a definite advantage for McLaren, so I think it balances ;)
McLaren will keep singing about allegation of Renault illegal document possession, since they know that Alonso at Renault would be the biggest threat for McLaren. It's normal :)

[SGWilko]

McLaren will keep singing about allegation of Renault illegal document possession, since they know that Alonso at Renault would be the biggest threat for McLaren. It's normal :)

Maybe. But Snr Alonso's head was well and truly messed up by being beaten fair and square by a rookie this season. The guy got quirky enough when Mr Dependable himself - Fisi, and Mr Qualifier - Trulli - beat him, but now a rookie has shown him just how vulnerable he really is.

He lacks self confidence. Now that is no big issue, because that is a trait a lot of us humans suffer from, but unless Fernando gets his head straight over the winter, he could always be looking over his shoulder.

And, just how good is little Piquet. Is he as good as his father could be on a good day, or is he just going to follow in Nelson's footsteps and be a mind game player?

Either way, if Fred lands at Renault, he could be in for a(nother) rocky ride.

[Valve Bounce]

Maybe Piquet is just about on par with Lewis Hamilton. Wouldn't that be funny if he was Fernando's team mate then. :D

[jas123f1]

btw -I think the boom around Lewis is just too much - too big – he is good – absolutely – but not that good. He really is not the best driver on track. Alonso is better, Kimi and Massa too.. maybe there is also others .. I must say I’m still a bit surprised that Ron Dennis let Alonso go. I don’t think there would be any problems if he was giving the same possibilities to both drivers and giving them a chance to make the best they can … if I was Ron Dennis I should make a telephone call and take the discussion up again..

McLaren is still a top team and almost every driver should like go there. I think the problem is only that no one of the top drivers likes to be a lapdog to Lewis. Possible a “not that good” driver (as Ralf) or a rookie can do it.

When a double world champion feels that he wasn’t getting a right support from the team – then who does? a rookie? no chance...

I think McLaren needs some one who has been in F1 a time.
The best option (after Alonso) was Nico of course, but if it's true what Williams is stating then it doesn't happen. If the second best is Kovalainen or Piquet is difficult to say … I think it will be Kovalainen, he made a good job and has been as test driver, the question is of course if Heikki is interested – can Dennis give him a guaranties of a fair treatment??

:)

[Hondo]

I think Alonso was gone the minute he made his "blackmail" threat. Great driver or not, he's not to be trusted. I would've gotten rid of him also. I also think Ghosen doesn't really want him back either, regardless of what Flav thinks.

[jas123f1]

I think Alonso was gone the minute he made his "blackmail" threat. Great driver or not, he's not to be trusted. I would've gotten rid of him also. I also think Ghosen doesn't really want him back either, regardless of what Flav thinks.

Alonso had to choose between to tell the truth or loose his F1-license.
FIA all ready did know about the mail. So there wasn’t that much to ponder for Alonso.

Ron should accuse him self and not any one else. They did manage whole spy scandal very bad. Ron didn’t say one word that McLaren (and him self) hade some part of the spying.
First time he almost fixed it but after that so many peoples was protesting FIA was forced to take the affair up again. It’s not fair to accuse Alonso of it.

[markabilly]

It would seem to me that it is a question of what happens to the spy deal as to whether FA would actually go to Renault...what would be the point if they take a real hard hit? If so, then off the Red Cow for the money......

Personally, still think both BMW and FA would have both been better off at BMW, cause face it, the BMW drivers, esp the Kube might turn out capable of winning a WDC, but right now, neither has proven they have the touch and talent to win a race, to say nothing of a championship, and until they do...one just left to wonder.......and then there is the pressure cooker of NOT choking when one is on the edge of a WDC being all sown up and in the bag...as Hamilton and Mac found out, and may find out again next year......

If you can find a WDC still in his prime and not too old, to drive a car that seems to clearly be very fast, perhaps as fast as any car in the field, then you need not wonder if it is driver or the car, if the car does not go to being "faster" than the rest, rather than remaining as "just as fast as", .....

[passmeatissue]

Alonso had to choose between to tell the truth or loose his F1-license.
FIA all ready did know about the mail. So there wasn’t that much to ponder for Alonso.

Ron should accuse him self and not any one else. They did manage whole spy scandal very bad. Ron didn’t say one word that McLaren (and him self) hade some part of the spying.
First time he almost fixed it but after that so many peoples was protesting FIA was forced to take the affair up again. It’s not fair to accuse Alonso of it.

I don't think that's right. After the blackmail attempt Ron called Max, Max was satisfied by Ron's assurance that there was nothing to be revealed in the emails. Then about 3 weeks later "someone" told Bernie that there was more, and so Max wrote to FA and PDLA. I have never seen it denied that the someone was Fernando.

So it seems Fernando did it, for no other reason that we can see than spite.

Ron, we must assume, would not have called Max if he had known about what was going on with Stepney.

[jas123f1]

I don't think that's right. After the blackmail attempt Ron called Max, Max was satisfied by Ron's assurance that there was nothing to be revealed in the emails. Then about 3 weeks later "someone" told Bernie that there was more, and so Max wrote to FA and PDLA. I have never seen it denied that the someone was Fernando.

So it seems Fernando did it, for no other reason that we can see than spite.

Ron, we must assume, would not have called Max if he had known about what was going on with Stepney.

I don't want to start any discussion about this again. But Alonso got an "FIA ultimatum" to speak true or loose his F1 licence. Do you really think he should to risk his F1-licence and lie to FIA? I still think Ron didn't investigate enough inside the team what happened or he did but didn’t tell what came out.. but that’s history now – I just don’t like when people are claiming drivers but forget who is responsible for the team. :)

[passmeatissue]

I don't want to start any discussion about this again. But Alonso got an "FIA ultimatum" to speak true or loose his F1 licence. Do you really think he should to risk his F1-licence and lie to FIA? I still think Ron didn't investigate enough inside the team what happened or he did but didn’t tell what came out.. but that’s history now – I just don’t like when people are claiming drivers but forget who is responsible for the team. :)

Well, if you post about something you have to expect to get replies that might disagee :) .

Fernando only got the FIA ultimatum because he set it up by going to Bernie.

[Valve Bounce]

Well, if you post about something you have to expect to get replies that might disagee :) .

Fernando only got the FIA ultimatum because he set it up by going to Bernie.


...........and squeeled!!

[markabilly]

...........and squeeled!!

.....yes all true but never ever forget what lead to the "blackmail" as in what happened the night before with the FIA, Hamilton, Hamilton's poppa and all when the Macgolden boy decided to disobey team orders that put the torch to the Spanard

A veiled threat made in anger over being knocked down five grid places thanks to the teamie's whining and fussing along with poppa (who squealed first) a threat that according to RD's own tstimony, was somewhat vague, but seems to me that RD knew enough about the stuff, to be all scared, so much that he called maxie in a panic and squealed on hisownself..........

At best a bunch of rats and hamsters trying to rat out one another :rolleyes:

And RD showed his true colors as a yellow belly liar with the so-called appeal... :vader:

Oh what tangled web we weave

Anway back to the real world, oh where oh where will FA go?

Seems if Flavielossoso takes a big FIA bullet, then FA will go Red Cow. If not there, then where?

I always thought toyota should not sign him, because he might end up doing worse than Ralfie, and then Toyota would clearly demonstarte to the world what a stinker of a car they built--sufficient for many hari-kari or what ever they call ritual suicide these days (please do not say that the name for such has become "Honda" or "Toyota")

[Valve Bounce]

What can I say?? Have a koolaid!!

Maybe, if Alonso cannot get a team to accept his terms, either timewise or financially, he may have to sit out a year and then see what is on offer, and which teams might improve in the interim.

[passmeatissue]

Maybe, if Alonso cannot get a team to accept his terms, either timewise or financially, he may have to sit out a year and then see what is on offer, and which teams might improve in the interim.

I can't remember a similar situation, ever! Fernando is lucky, I think, that key people don't seem to be worrying too much about his involvement in the spying or his grassing up his team.

Speculation-wise, if he has a deal at Ferrari for 2009, which does seem to fit in with what little we know, then you'd have to think that is a fixture and he'll fit 2008 around it.

If Renault were too small to both win in 2006 and develop well for 2007, then that limitation is only likely to get worse after 6th Dec. I feel Ghosn is a hard case who won't budge on his 3-year minimum.

I suspect Honda would take him, for the impetus it would give them, and they'd still have Jense for 2009. Rubens was slow until they gave him Ferrari-esque "foot-switch" traction control so it's probably a shot to nothing for them. I reckon it's there as a last resort for FA.

Red Bull can get enough benefit from one year to make it a commercial proposition, I think, selling more drinks. It's relatively easy to make a seat available and the car should be a contender for 3rd team. Then Kimi swaps in for 2009, he would fit right in! That's my pick.

But FA may not get such a big pay packet next year. Shouldn't do anyway, IMHO :blackeye: .

[Hondo]

I think Ghosen is insisting on 3 years to keep him away.

[markabilly]

I suspect Honda would take him, for the impetus it would give them, and they'd still have Jense for 2009. Rubens was slow until they gave him Ferrari-esque "foot-switch" traction control so it's probably a shot to nothing for them. I reckon it's there as a last resort for FA.



But FA may not get such a big pay packet next year. Shouldn't do anyway, IMHO :blackeye: .
As to Honda, same thing I said about Toyota should apply to them---(at least until Brawn came along)...one might still wonder about Button and his ability/determination, so was the question of the car or the driver is there, but if both FA and Button were to start putting on massive battles for the glory of not starting last place on the grid and not being behind Sato in his soon to be three year Honda chassis, more hari-kari for all.

With Brawn there, who knows, maybe things will get better, but his talent was in helping and working with a very talented driver who more of a motivator and inspirational leader to his team rather than a driver who needed special motivating and treatment to keep him from getting all depressed, plus current the honda team of engineers and designers is a huge question mark....it will probably get worse during the transisition before it gets much better, and everyone will be saying in 2008, even without FA there, geewhiz, RB was suppose to be an instant formula for Button to be a wdc in 2008, so what happenned? Why make the situation worse?

So that leaves Renault, Red Bull teams one and two, Spyker and BMW.

BMW is apprently NOT going to do what I think is the most obvious and easy way to march straight to a WCC and WDC in 2008, relying on the Kube (who probably has the most potential on that team) and Heidfelt, who someday before he retires from old age, might actually win a race or two....maybe....

If Renault took the hit, they might fold their tent, "sell" part or the whole team stuff to Red Bull, have Red Bull become "Red Bull-Renault"....and who knows, maybe bag a WDC in 2008

And they already have their own brand of Kool Aid for everyone drink..... :beer:


But it just would not be good for the sport to do something really painful and fatal to Renault ("deserving gots nothing to do with it") and eliminate potential revenue from the soap opera of having the spectacular thrill of seeing FA run his old team and enemies to ground while they fight him off brutually at every corner, now would it?????


Even more importantly, bernie is flavio's favio sports team partner--(and just when/how/why was that deal signed and how much money went through and into whose hands???), so methinks that there will be much bashing of Renault for the month of December, much sound and fury, but in the end, signifying nothing................. :vader:

[Tazio]

.....yes all true but never ever forget what lead to the "blackmail" as in what happened the night before with the FIA, Hamilton, Hamilton's poppa and all when the Macgolden boy decided to disobey team orders that put the torch to the Spanard

A veiled threat made in anger over being knocked down five grid places thanks to the teamie's whining and fussing along with poppa (who squealed first) a threat that according to RD's own tstimony, was somewhat vague, but seems to me that RD knew enough about the stuff, to be all scared, so much that he called maxie in a panic and squealed on hisownself..........

At best a bunch of rats and hamsters trying to rat out one another :rolleyes:

And RD showed his true colors as a yellow belly liar with the so-called appeal... :vader:

Oh what tangled web we weave


Word!

[jas123f1]

Well, if you post about something you have to expect to get replies that might disagee :) .

Fernando only got the FIA ultimatum because he set it up by going to Bernie.

The only reason for that Alonso got the ultimatum was because FIA wanted to know the truth - there were no other reasons - that's the only reason. And when they did have it, the result was 100 000000 $ fine to McLaren – that serious it was and MAYBE Alonso saved the team in F1 - when telling FIA the truth about the spy affair.
There was a big risk that McLaren had been kicked out for a year or two..

And whatever so I don't think Alonso should lie to FIA only because Ron Dennis didn't do his job as he should to do. Ron didn’t investigate what his team was doing, he should investigate things like that all ready before it game out anywhere.. in every case as soon as possible AND take contact to FIA. I don’t know how much he did or didn’t know about what his chief designer was doing, so therefore I don’t like to speculate about it, but as team Principal is Ron Dennis always responsible for that kind of matters and things in his team – that’s clear and that’s the reason to the big fine McLaren got. The responsibility is definitely not drivers and they have now reason to be involved or start to lie for any one. It’s for the rest serious thing and contrary to the law to lie about criminal activities as industrial spying.

I would say that in one way Alonso made Ron job .. :)

[jas123f1]

Couldn't find the original thread.
Heiki and Fisi not wanted at Renault. http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=33419

It will appear that Nelson Piquet Jr will be one member, while Flavio will try to negotiate a deal with Alonso.

Back to the thread.
I think it's not absolutely clear yet who will join Alonso (if he will return to Renault) it can still be either Heikki or Fisi. Alonso and Fisi were a good team earlier so why don't again?
:)

[passmeatissue]

Michael won Massa's carting event.

Think that might weaken his resolve?? :eek:

[Valve Bounce]

Wouldn't it be great if SchM took up the seat at McLaren. I can see the dollar bills ringing up in Bernies eyes!!

[ArrowsFA1]

Back to the thread.
I think it's not absolutely clear yet who will join Alonso (if he will return to Renault) it can still be either Heikki or Fisi. Alonso and Fisi were a good team earlier so why don't again?
:)
Fisi would be the perfect partner for Alonso IMHO. Renault know they work together well and also Fisi is quick but not a real threat.

Slightly OT, in this month's F1 Racing magazine Alan Henry suggests Alonso may not win another race, let alone another championship :eek:

[leopard]

consistency scoring points maybe also important than the win itself. It may send him to another win of championship. :)

[ShiftingGears]

Slightly OT, in this month's F1 Racing magazine Alan Henry suggests Alonso may not win another race, let alone another championship :eek:

Not impossible...can't see it happening though. :\

[leopard]

Many said that pessimism when he firstly won. :)

[Valve Bounce]

Fisi would be the perfect partner for Alonso IMHO. Renault know they work together well and also Fisi is quick but not a real threat.

Slightly OT, in this month's F1 Racing magazine Alan Henry suggests Alonso may not win another race, let alone another championship :eek:

First of all, my link above indicated that both Fisi and Heiki have been told they are no longer required at Renault.

Secondly, the only way that Alonso may not win another race is if he is shunned by Renault and Red Bull and has to go drive for Toyota. Not impossible, but that is the reality. I think the ability of any driver to win races is totally dependent on the competitiveness of the team in any year. I reckon that had bunsen been driving the McLaren this year, he may have won enough races to be WDC. Who knows?? It is all about being in the right team at the right time.

[ArrowsFA1]

DC has said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64107) "I cannot see Fernando Alonso joining Red Bull in 2008, and I am 100 percent certain that I will be racing for them next year."

His comments about how little research is done by F1 journalists into these sort of stories are interesting as well. After all, why bother checking the facts when a story can be spun :rolleyes:

[Valve Bounce]

Ya gotta admit: rumours are a helluva lot more interesting than facts.

[OTA]

If that bloke wants to put money on it, I'll put a good bunch that Alonso will be well over 30 wins when he decides to call it a day.

Cheers
David

[Roamy]

This is a great silly season. We have Fred, Fish, BabyShu, and Hekki with no rides and the possibility of Renault pulling out. Man somebody better get some money for Aguri

[Valve Bounce]

i THINK hEIKI WILL GO TO mClAREN - DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE OTHERS THO'

[leopard]

I think the others would be hibernating. :)

[pino]

According to some Ital media, today's the day we will know more about Alonso's future ;)

[leopard]

I think mostly of them said Alonso's future is in no rush. Any choice must be made prudently :)

[CNR]

http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=72645



A Ferrari test driver has backed Fernando Alonso's apparent plan to join the Maranello based team in the future.
But despite speculation to the contrary, Marc Gene, also a Spaniard, says he can not envisage the 26-year-old double world champion in a Ferrari as early as 2009.
http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/themes/PostNuke/images/pix-t.gifhttp://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/themes/PostNuke/images/pix-t.gif
It is rumoured that Alonso is fervently pushing for a single-year contract for 2008 so that he is free to join Ferrari the year after.
"I don't think he has said that himself," Gene, who is 33, is quoted as saying by the Spanish news agency EFE.
"Anyway, Ferrari already has contracts -- Kimi for two more years and Felipe for three. And this is a team that honours what it has signed, so until 2010 there is no vacancy," he added.

[passmeatissue]

The main bit of evidence I can see is that holding out for one year is such a showstopper, only a Ferrari drive for 2009 would be worth it.

[Buzz Lightyear]

This is showing all the signs of something going on the the background.. and both drivers pouting. RB seems to be the only team maybe will to agree his 1 year term clause...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64126

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64107

[Buzz Lightyear]

my thoery is shot..

Dietrich Mateschitz has moved to dismiss talk that Fernando Alonso is in contention for a race seat at Red Bull Racing next year - and instead said his team are happy to wait another season before gunning for a big-name star.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64130

[ArrowsFA1]

"If there is speculation in the Italian media that Alonso is about to sign for Red Bull, I can only say - I know nothing about that," said Mateschitz in an interview with Swiss publication Motorsport Aktuell.
"Red Bull Racing and Scuderia Toro Rosso have four drivers under contract.
"From what I hear, Alonso is speaking to other teams about a one-year only deal. Such a deal is out of question for us. We would prefer to wait a year and prove that we can build a car which is capable of attracting one of the best Grand Prix drivers for 2009."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64130

[passmeatissue]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64130

Dietrich might just be someone who makes fizzy drinks but you have to say he knows how to pick his words. The interview is being spun one way by Autosport, and almost the opposite way by F1-live..."Mateschitz confirms Alonso talks."

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/071127152136.shtml

:confused:

F1 at its finest :)

[Garry Walker]

Alonso to hopefully remain seatless for 2008!

[Garry Walker]

The main bit of evidence I can see is that holding out for one year is such a showstopper, only a Ferrari drive for 2009 would be worth it.

Why would Ferrari want him? They already have 2 more mature and better drivers.

[Garry Walker]

According to some Ital media, today's the day we will know more about Alonso's future ;)

And ;)

[Easy Drifter]

Alonso to NAPCAR. He would feel at home with all the other open wheel refugees.

[jso1985]

Cause Di Montezemolo rates Alonso a lot, maybe even higher than Massa and Raikkonen

[ArrowsFA1]

The interview is being spun one way by Autosport, and almost the opposite way by F1-live...
Give a direct quote to 5 different outlets and you'll get five different stories :p

[jas123f1]

Give a direct quote to 5 different outlets and you'll get five different stories :p

Sure :D - but i'm also sure that Red Bull like to have Alonso in the team.
(However its funny how they can speak without to say anything)..

[pino]

Cause Di Montezemolo rates Alonso a lot, maybe even higher than Massa and Raikkonen

Luca rates Alonso a lot but not higher than Massa and Kimi ;)

[Valve Bounce]

I am sure Alonso will come to a decision tomorrow where he will be racing next year.

In the same context, there is a pub out west that is offering free beer tomorrow.

[CNR]

http://www.autoracingdaily.com/article/formula_one_team_red_bull_rules_out_fernando_alons os_services_for_2008_seas/



The boss of Formula One team Red Bull, Dietrich Mateschitz, told a German magazine he was not interested in signing former two-time world champion Fernando Alonso on a one-year contract.

[FIA]

Ferrari: Raikkonen & Massa
BMW: Heidfeld & Kubica
Renault: Alonso & Piquet
Williams: Rosberg & Nakajima
Red Bull: Coulthard & Webber
Toyota: Trulli & Glock
Toro Rosso: Vettel & Bourdais
Honda: Button & Barrichello
Super Aguri: Sato & Davidson
Force India: Sutil & Liuzzi/Klien
McLaren: Hamilton & Kovalainen

[Valve Bounce]

Ferrari: Raikkonen & Massa
BMW: Heidfeld & Kubica
Renault: Alonso & Piquet
Williams: Rosberg & Nakajima
Red Bull: Coulthard & Webber
Toyota: Trulli & Glock
Toro Rosso: Vettel & Bourdais
Honda: Button & Barrichello
Super Aguri: Sato & Davidson
Force India: Sutil & Liuzzi/Klien
McLaren: Hamilton & Kovalainen

I would say this is just about right. The only doubt here is Alonso, because he only wants to sign for one year, and team owners prefer a driver to show more faith and loyalty to a team than a one year jaunt.

[passmeatissue]

I would say this is just about right. The only doubt here is Alonso, because he only wants to sign for one year, and team owners prefer a driver to show more faith and loyalty to a team than a one year jaunt.

Suppose we believe Ghosn (I do, myself) that it's 3 years at Renault or none. If FA will not accept it, the only reason has to be that he has a seat at Ferrari.

I would have thought that if he wanted Renault, he could have had a contract subject to the WMSC outcome, and been testing next week.

Pino thinks Montezemolo prefers Massa to Alonso, but I would say if so he is among a small minority. Felipe may be quick enough, but in his head he is no match for the top 3. Also the challenge of sticking it to Ron by having Kimi and Fernando driving together successfully will be a big temptation for Luca.

The Red Bull option does seem to be fading. Toyota have been relatively definite about "no" to 1 year.

So by that process of elimination...Honda for a year, then Ferrari.

Then Kovy would stay at Renault, and Ron has a tricky choice to make. Pedro would be steady but behind the BMW's I reckon, and Ron loves those 1-2s. I fancy he'll be keeping a close eye on the Force India tests...

[ClarkFan]

I would say this is just about right. The only doubt here is Alonso, because he only wants to sign for one year, and team owners prefer a driver to show more faith and loyalty to a team than a one year jaunt.

He could do a Button and have an escape clause if he isn't at 150% of the WDC leader's points total at the end of August. ;)

More seriously, a grown-up needs to talk with him about what his real choices are. Unless he is angling for a BMW seat, the other choices for 2009 beyond Renault seem pretty limited. Williams hasn't the dosh, Honda hasn't proved they can consistently produce a competitive car, and Ferrari really isn't interested. The rest aren't candidates to produce a WDC car, unless he thinks all will be forgiven at McLaren. :rolleyes:

Alonso needs to put his head down, shut his mouth and restore his reputation with some serious racing at Renault. It's not like he will have to eat beans to make ends meet. Who knows, he may decide it is the best decision long term.

ClarkFan

[janneppi]

A Finnish tabloid has quoted some other tabloid that Alonso has been seen fitting a seat at Honda, which would force Barrichello to Super Aguri and Davidson to somewhere else. :)

[Valve Bounce]

A Finnish tabloid has quoted some other tabloid that Alonso has been seen fitting a seat at Honda, which would force Barrichello to Super Aguri and Davidson to somewhere else. :)

News of the World or Mirror? :confused:

[SGWilko]

News of the World or Mirror? :confused:

Or even the paper that gave us 'Elvis found on moon'.....

The Sunday Sport.

[Valve Bounce]

Or even the paper that gave us 'Elvis found on moon'.....

The Sunday Sport.

Hey!! I missed that :(

[janneppi]

News of the World or Mirror? :confused:
The so-called article didn't say who was the inventor of he original story. ;)

[Garry Walker]

A Finnish tabloid has quoted some other tabloid that Alonso has been seen fitting a seat at Honda, which would force Barrichello to Super Aguri and Davidson to somewhere else. :)

I would love it if that was true!

[passmeatissue]

A Finnish tabloid has quoted some other tabloid that Alonso has been seen fitting a seat at Honda, which would force Barrichello to Super Aguri and Davidson to somewhere else. :)

Now also in Sport Bild...

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/071129170331.shtml

"nearing an agreement"

[passmeatissue]

Now also in Sport Bild...

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/071129170331.shtml

"nearing an agreement"


BUT: Honda deny Alonso rumours

"Reacting to the Bild story, a Honda spokeswoman said: "Fernando has not visited our factory, and Honda Racing confirmed their drivers for the 2008 season back in July."

http://www.autosport.com/news/grapevine.php/id/64169

[Valve Bounce]

BUT: Honda deny Alonso rumours

"Reacting to the Bild story, a Honda spokeswoman said: "Fernando has not visited our factory, and Honda Racing confirmed their drivers for the 2008 season back in July."

http://www.autosport.com/news/grapevine.php/id/64169


Yeah!! but ya gotta admit : if it's reported in The Bild, it's gotta be true. :rolleyes:

[passmeatissue]

Yeah!! but ya gotta admit : if it's reported in The Bild, it's gotta be true. :rolleyes:

No-one said it was true. :rolleyes: . Not even Sport Bild, probably.

[Valve Bounce]

No-one said it was true. :rolleyes: . Not even Sport Bild, probably.


I'm confused :confused: So who is not going where? :(

[Valve Bounce]

Hre's another opinion: http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19901.html

[rabf1]

I am not an Alonso fan, but he is a 2x WDC and is unquestionably a talented driver. He seems to have a ruthless and ferocious desire to win. One thing that puzzles me is why BMW evidently doesn't want him. Their drivers don't qualify to carry his jock in terms of talent. I think BMW could win the drivers championship with Alonso next year.

[Valve Bounce]

I am not an Alonso fan, but he is a 2x WDC and is unquestionably a talented driver. He seems to have a ruthless and ferocious desire to win. One thing that puzzles me is why BMW evidently doesn't want him. Their drivers don't qualify to carry his jock ...............

Does that mean you think he is a big prick?? :eek:

[passmeatissue]

I am not an Alonso fan, but he is a 2x WDC and is unquestionably a talented driver. He seems to have a ruthless and ferocious desire to win. One thing that puzzles me is why BMW evidently doesn't want him. Their drivers don't qualify to carry his jock in terms of talent. I think BMW could win the drivers championship with Alonso next year.

Yes, interesting, no-one seems to expect Dr Mario to do the expedient thing and dump one of his drivers. Is this pure integrity? It might be.

In a survey on a German F1 website (Motorsport-Total.com) the favourite team was BMW and favourite team boss was Mario Theissen, with McLaren Mercedes 4th in each poll, so it seems he is building a good reputation for the team. Toyota was last despite being in Germany, so BMW is clearly the home team (German driver coming for Macca, anyone?).

Alonso was only 6th favourite driver so his reputation seems to have taken a hit among German fans, I suppose having grassed up Mercedes. Dr Mario may simply agree with this, I suspect. Respect from me too, if so.

[rabf1]

This is business. Someone could build a team around Alonso. He is not so different from Senna in that he does seem to have a ruthless side when it comes to his desire to win. BMW's drivers are not going to be multiple world champions.

[passmeatissue]

This is business. Someone could build a team around Alonso. He is not so different from Senna in that he does seem to have a ruthless side when it comes to his desire to win. BMW's drivers are not going to be multiple world champions.

It's a problem for Fernando that going to Bernie did not advance his cause in the championship in any way, so as far as anyone can see it was just out of spite. This is a weak trait, I think many in the pitlane see this differently from ambition.

I think he is a better fit with someone a bit less scrupulous, like Flav. Or Ross, even.

And at Renault he was complaining, signed for McLaren at the end of 2005, and has said Renault is not his first choice, so building a team around a driver who has no sense of loyalty at all would be quite risky. It's not like Schumi. More like Senna, I agree, but he's not that strong.

[AJP]

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=276212&FS=F1

Fisi and Ralf to test for Force India...very interesting...and desperate moves from two drivers clasping on to a drive of some sorts...not that I'd blame them. I would want to keep driving F1's for my entire life...

[Roamy]

I am not an Alonso fan, but he is a 2x WDC and is unquestionably a talented driver. He seems to have a ruthless and ferocious desire to win. One thing that puzzles me is why BMW evidently doesn't want him. Their drivers don't qualify to carry his jock in terms of talent. I think BMW could win the drivers championship with Alonso next year.

Pretty easy one: Mario does not want a WDC - He had one. This way he always has a excuse for not winning and can string out his job for years.

[ioan]

Pretty easy one: Mario does not want a WDC - He had one. This way he always has a excuse for not winning and can string out his job for years.

JV would have not won anything since the end of 97 till the end of his F1 driver career. JB beat him at Honda,Fisi at Renault, FM at Sauber and NH at BMW Sauber. If he didn't leave BMW last year he would have been driving for Spyker in the very best case.

[Easy Drifter]

Can anyone see Mario and his attitude towards running BMW and Freddie with his trait of throwing his toys out of the pram if he doesn't get his way ever getting along? They would be at each others throats by the end of the first race if not before testing ended.

[Valve Bounce]

BMW has two good drivers - fast and both capable of getting into the points. It is only a matter of time when the car improves, luck turns their way, and they star winning. Why bugger around with a snake in the grass? who would only destabilise the team?

[janneppi]

BMW team comes across as similar to McLaren and Williams, drivers are a part of the team, not the team working for the drivers. Heidfeld and Kubica seem fit that part quite well.

[janneppi]

Here's some Alonso speculation I picked up from Turun Sanomat.
Alonso's options are now limited to Toyota and Redbull

-Alonso hasn't been to talks with Renault after a clash with Briatore last week.
-Honda seems to be built around Button and isn't ready to put Alonso in the first seat.
-Toyota deal would put Trulli out of a seat making him a very expensive tester.
-Redbull could face loosing it's Renault engines if Alonso moves there as a payback from Flavio.

All this, of course isn't worth the electricity needed to make this text into your screen if there is already a deal done. :)

[ClarkFan]

Here's some Alonso speculation I picked up from Turun Sanomat.
Alonso's options are now limited to Toyota and Redbull

-Alonso hasn't been to talks with Renault after a clash with Briatore last week.
-Honda seems to be built around Button and isn't ready to put Alonso in the first seat.
-Toyota deal would put Trulli out of a seat making him a very expensive tester.
-Redbull could face loosing it's Renault engines if Alonso moves there as a payback from Flavio.

All this, of course isn't worth the electricity needed to make this text into your screen if there is already a deal done. :)

I'm not disputing what you posted (have no information to contradict any of it), but wasn't Briatore Alonso's manager? Did they split over the McLaren deal? Or does Alonso no longer have a friend in this world?

And if I were running Honda, Button vs. Alonso would be a no-brainer as long as Alonso was willing to commit for the long term. And as for loyalty, Button has been willing to throw his team out of the pram - what goes around, comes around.

ClarkFan

[ioan]

Here's some Alonso speculation I picked up from Turun Sanomat.
Alonso's options are now limited to Toyota and Redbull

-Alonso hasn't been to talks with Renault after a clash with Briatore last week.

Why?


-Honda seems to be built around Button and isn't ready to put Alonso in the first seat.

Button can win a race only if he's the only one driving a F1 on the track. :D
Why wouldn't Honda pick the best available driver (unless their goal in F1 is not to win a championship)?


-Toyota deal would put Trulli out of a seat making him a very expensive tester.

Money isn't Toyota's problem!


-Redbull could face loosing it's Renault engines if Alonso moves there as a payback from Flavio.

Ghosn would kick Flavio out in the very next minute if he does that. This isn't Benetton anymore, I would hardly believe that Renault would give a kick to those extra millions.


All this, of course isn't worth the electricity needed to make this text into your screen if there is already a deal done. :)

The same applies if there is no deal yet.

[janneppi]

Why?
Why limited options or why no talks with Renault?
Options limited by teams or Alonso, or neither Alonso or Briatore give the impression of calm negotiators who can prevent discussion getting too heated.


Button can win a race only if he's the only one driving a F1 on the track. :D
Why wouldn't Honda pick the best available driver (unless their goal in F1 is not to win a championship)?The article suggests it's Alonso who doesn't want the seat alongside Button.


The same applies if there is no deal yet.As I said, it's all speculation from the newspaper journalist who gathers rumours from the paddocs. :)

[passmeatissue]

As I said, it's all speculation from the newspaper journalist who gathers rumours from the paddocs. :)

Yes, it's not called the Sensible Season, after all :) .

The latest rumour from Dario As is that Fernando is waiting for next Monday, 10th, to see and digest what happens at the WMSC meeting(s).

So, speculating on that little nugget of "information", Renault seem still to be in the game, although I can quite believe the story that Flav and Fernando had a row.

[ClarkFan]

Yes, it's not called the Sensible Season, after all :) .

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

The best comment so far!

ClarkFan

[dime3]

Can anyone see Mario and his attitude towards running BMW and Freddie with his trait of throwing his toys out of the pram if he doesn't get his way ever getting along? They would be at each others throats by the end of the first race if not before testing ended.
:D It would be fantastic popcorn viewing though! :D

[SGWilko]

:D It would be fantastic popcorn viewing though! :D

Have you ever watched popcorn.....? It doesn't do much! ;)

[markabilly]

It


Personally, still think both BMW and FA would have both been better off at BMW, cause face it, the BMW drivers, esp the Kube might turn out capable of winning a WDC, but right now, neither has proven they have the touch and talent to win a race, to say nothing of a championship, and until they do...one just left to wonder.......and then there is the pressure cooker of NOT choking when one is on the edge of a WDC being all sown up and in the bag...as Hamilton and Mac found out, and may find out again next year......

If you can find a WDC still in his prime and not too old, to drive a car that seems to clearly be very fast, perhaps as fast as any car in the field, then you need not wonder if it is driver or the car, if the car does not go to being "faster" than the rest, rather than remaining as "just as fast as", .....


This is business. Someone could build a team around Alonso. He is not so different from Senna in that he does seem to have a ruthless side when it comes to his desire to win. BMW's drivers are not going to be multiple world champions.


Pretty easy one: Mario does not want a WDC - He had one. This way he always has a excuse for not winning and can string out his job for years.


JV would have not won anything since the end of 97 till the end of his F1 driver career. JB beat him at Honda,Fisi at Renault, FM at Sauber and NH at BMW Sauber. If he didn't leave BMW last year he would have been driving for Spyker in the very best case.


BMW has two good drivers - fast and both capable of getting into the points. It is only a matter of time when the car improves, luck turns their way, and they star winning. Why bugger around with a snake in the grass? who would only destabilise the team?


I am not an Alonso fan, but he is a 2x WDC and is unquestionably a talented driver. He seems to have a ruthless and ferocious desire to win. One thing that puzzles me is why BMW evidently doesn't want him. Their drivers don't qualify to carry his jock in terms of talent. I think BMW could win the drivers championship with Alonso next year.

The reason is simple for a snake is simple--this is not "I do not like traction control and I have wasted four years at do nothing Honda" JV, but someone who is winning now, and came with one point of a WDC less than a couple of months ago

And if you want to get real personal, just remember a certain race where he went from from pole and lost five grid positions because of his cry-baby teammate and poppa--give him one point or better give him a second or third place in that race--or heaven forbid, an actual win, and FA would be a three-time WDC.

So who does BMW have--two drivers still trying to win their first race.

Looks like BMW will not be doing it, but without question FA is the best thing for BMW, if they want to do more than win a few races next year and with their current line up, even that is not quaranteed as they may not even win one race, so i guess BMW will continue to look good with some "good results" with its "team image and all" but that is not putting a WDC or a WCC in the bag

Remember Pete Aaron of the old sixties movie "Grand Prix". Who would you rather have as the best shot at the best result for a wdc? Kube? NH? Button? Rubins?Trullie?

[SGWilko]

The reason is simple for a snake is simple--this is not "I do not like traction control and I have wasted four years at do nothing Honda" JV, but someone who is winning now, and came with one point of a WDC less than a couple of months ago

And if you want to get real personal, just remember a certain race where he went from from pole and lost five grid positions because of his cry-baby teammate and poppa--give him one point or better give him a second or third place in that race--or heaven forbid, an actual win, and FA would be a three-time WDC.

So who does BMW have--two drivers still trying to win their first race.

Looks like BMW will not be doing it, but without question FA is the best thing for BMW, if they want to do more than win a few races next year and with their current line up, even that is not quaranteed as they may not even win one race, so i guess BMW will continue to look good with some "good results" with its "team image and all" but that is not putting a WDC or a WCC in the bag

Remember Pete Aaron of the old sixties movie "Grand Prix". Who would you rather have as the best shot at the best result for a wdc? Kube? NH? Button? Rubins?Trullie?

Have been drinking your Kool Aid again?

That did not make much sense. What were you trying to say?

[markabilly]

Have been drinking your Kool Aid again?

That did not make much sense. What were you trying to say?


Compare the drivers at BMW (and Honda) to FA--there is every reason for them to hire FA over those, esp. BMW if they really want to win championships and not just score points, looking good or whatever.

I think Freddie deserves a new nickname--"Snake", given a couple of the comments I quoted


You should try it,
:beer:

you will like it, assuming you survive the aftertaste......

(guess I should have added at the end "or Freddie"...Kimi WDC can out drink me anyway.........

[SGWilko]

Compare the drivers at BMW (and Honda) to FA--there is every reason for them to hire FA over those, esp. BMW if they really want to win championships and not just score points, looking good or whatever.

I think Freddie deserves a new nickname--"Snake", given a couple of the comments I quoted


You should try it,
:beer:

you will like it, assuming you survive the aftertaste......

A tempting offer, but not just yet..... ;)

That is much clearer, thanks. Well, Kubica is still wet behind the ears, so he has a lot of potential. Nick pulled off some good moves this season, and I think he is underrated. This is the trouble with todays F1, you have such a job to get to the top. Sauber was always going to be midfielders, BMW have bettered that in a short space of time. If they can break into the top 3, I think both the current drivers could mount a good challenge.

[markabilly]

A tempting offer, but not just yet..... ;)

That is much clearer, thanks. Well, Kubica is still wet behind the ears, so he has a lot of potential. Nick pulled off some good moves this season, and I think he is underrated. This is the trouble with todays F1, you have such a job to get to the top. Sauber was always going to be midfielders, BMW have bettered that in a short space of time. If they can break into the top 3, I think both the current drivers could mount a good challenge.
A good challenge but not necessarily a succesful championship one. While LH showed a lot of talent, there was still the image of losing that big point lead that someone who was more battle scarred might not have lost...and Kimi did not suddenly start wining a wdc the same year he started winning races, and neither did MS and so on....

and JV might not have won a WDC in 1997 in his second year, if Hill had remained at the team as that was his real competition as MS and Ferrari were still a bit weak--and JV had been winning big races (if you call Indy in front of 250k people big) before he showed up, and was winning the year before

Today without question, we have Mac and ferrari at the top, excellent drivers there, with Renault at their heels along with BMW...what little extra does BMW need? A great driver who will win

[Valve Bounce]

This is all comparative. Many things have to be considered before we make assumptions that certain drivers are better than others: Like Renault in 2005 and 2006 are on par with BMW/Sauber, so Alonso is the superior driver to the BMW/Sauber pair then. Then McLaren is on par with BMW/Sauber this year, so that Lewis Hamilton and Alonso are far superior to the two BMW drivers.

Even when drivers are in the same team, there are complications in comparing them. One can quote numerous examples from McLaren's performance as the year progressed, so it is difficult to demonstrate whether Hamilton or Alonso is the beter driver from their results alone.

Just ask ioan; he'll tell you that in 2005 and 2006, SchM was still the best driver in the WORLD : it is subjective when we rate drivers' abilities.

Then of course, I could say that ant is a better driver than bunsen because he was doing better in his second hand honda running on a shoestring budget than bunsen with the vast resources or Team Honda. It's all very subjective isn't it!!

[ClarkFan]

Compare the drivers at BMW (and Honda) to FA--there is every reason for them to hire FA over those, esp. BMW if they really want to win championships and not just score points, looking good or whatever.

I agree with your analysis. If either of those teams wants to fight for the championship anytime soon, they need Alonso's butt in one of their cars.

Actually the case is more urgent for Honda - Button and Barrichello have both been around long enough to set the outer bounds of their potential, and the WDC is well outside those bounds. BMW may have an excuse with Kubica, but Nick Heidfeld isn't ever going to be World Champion. Good journeyman, good with the car, but Champion? No chance.

And I don't buy the argument that losing traction control will reshuffle the driver pecking order. With every big technological change in the past, the top dogs remained the top dogs. Front engine to rear engine, 1.5 liters to 3 liters, no electronic aids to electronic aids - each time the fastest drivers remained the fastest drivers. Maybe this time is different, but history says it won't be.

If I was running a team and wanted to win, I would be talking to Alonso (exceptions being Ferrari and McLaren). And if my incumbent driver(s) didn't like it, a thrilling career in DTM would be awaiting them.

ClarkFan

[Valve Bounce]

Where Alonso goes or what he does will be dependent on the outcome of the Renault Spy hearing this thursday :http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2940947,00.html

We can speculate all we like about all the other teams, but I think it will boil down to just Renault.

But I was just thinking, after reading how Patrick Head says it will not be the end of Williams if Rosberg left them; http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2941819,00.html;
so just what would they think if Fernando wanted to drive for Williams and Rosbrg would then move to McLaren?

I must admit I didn't think of hte possibility of Alonso going to Williams, but then again, why not??

[Roamy]

Can anyone see Mario and his attitude towards running BMW and Freddie with his trait of throwing his toys out of the pram if he doesn't get his way ever getting along? They would be at each others throats by the end of the first race if not before testing ended.

my point exactly - I don't think Mario can handle a WDC - his ego is too big and if he can't win the championship with a vastly superior car - it ain't gonna happen

[leopard]

Average car wouldn't be a problem, he get used to drive that sort of car last year and before.

[ioan]

The article suggests it's Alonso who doesn't want the seat alongside Button.
As I said, it's all speculation from the newspaper journalist who gathers rumours from the paddocs. :)

Yeah especially when the paddocks are closed in the off-season! ;)

[markabilly]

This is all comparative. Many things have to be considered before we make assumptions that certain drivers are better than others: Like Renault in 2005 and 2006 are on par with BMW/Sauber, so Alonso is the superior driver to the BMW/Sauber pair then. Then McLaren is on par with BMW/Sauber this year, so that Lewis Hamilton and Alonso are far superior to the two BMW drivers.

Even when drivers are in the same team, there are complications in comparing them. One can quote numerous examples from McLaren's performance as the year progressed, so it is difficult to demonstrate whether Hamilton or Alonso is the beter driver from their results alone.

Just ask ioan; he'll tell you that in 2005 and 2006, SchM was still the best driver in the WORLD : it is subjective when we rate drivers' abilities.

Then of course, I could say that ant is a better driver than bunsen because he was doing better in his second hand honda running on a shoestring budget than bunsen with the vast resources or Team Honda. It's all very subjective isn't it!!

Up to a point, it is subjective, but there is no substitute for experience that provides a certain amount of ability to deal with pressure...and obviously such experience can also show a continual, constant inability to deal with pressure.

So, hate the snake and love LH or blame LH and love Freddie, FA does have the demonstrated ability of the last three seasons to win two WDC in a car that was not clearly and vastly superior to Ferrari, despite his later inability to deal with a team mate's outburst that leads to Freddie being docked five grid places with blackmail threats and so forth (but then who could and have the necessary temperament to be a WDC?)

Yet despite the open celebrations in the pits by his own team when he was beaten in races or qualifying by his team mate etc and so forth, he still came within one point for a third consecutive WDC

Besides, it is not nearly enough to be the fastest in a particular race or on a particular day or in a particular car that makes a champion. It is being able to do well enough to win or score high, when one is not being the fastest at a particular track or a particular day, and to do that consistently throughout the entire season.

MS, MH, FA --of recent drivers of the last ten years, they had the "Right Stuff" to be a WDC--and frankly, I think Kimi only recently acquired it from several years of being very competitive but either winning or not doing well, so that he learned from past failures to not just did not blow off second through fourth place finishes that played a real big role, along with those wins, in giving him the title, or race as he did in Brazil. Being patient at the right time is as important as being willing to go all out on other occaisions

All the rest of the current drivers remain subjective question marks that one can debate as to the "potential" and so forth or who is better, especially those drivers who have never won a single race or have won a couple......but it is not winning debates or even winning a pole position here and there, but the ability at resisting pressure and winning enough points over a very long and tough season that makes a WDC

So when someone like that is on the market, why not jump at him, given the alternatives of a NH or Kube or Button or whoever...esp where it appears that you ahve the car that can do it


besides, FA has more than proven for the last three years that he can race in the rain very well--so drivers like that, will have no problem dealing with the absence of traction control one would think..........

[Valve Bounce]

I had always rated Alonso very highly. However, his recent behaviourial patterns leave a question mark over how he would fit into a team, especially one that is clerly not the best on the grid. Perhaps winning that first WDC had made him very self important and the contributions of his team mate for his second was overlooked too easily. Who really knows?

When he qualified that Minardi at Albert Park, I stated then that his next trick was to walk across the lake. I think he must have believed it too.

[markabilly]

I had always rated Alonso very highly. However, his recent behaviourial patterns leave a question mark over how he would fit into a team, especially one that is clerly not the best on the grid. ...........

Probably a bit better than Senna would...when and who did he bump....was it a certain world champ....what team were they on and how many times?

i think that if Senna had been teamed with Hamilton this year, we would have seen far worse from Senna towards LH...i would think that Senna would have not talked to RD that morning, but gone looking to punch him out all on his own or just did whatever to put him really down and out on the track, and that incident at Spa would have seen him push LH right into the fence....assuming LH lasted that long into the season and continued to act up......

and LH was a just rookie and Freddie only did some whining.......

[Valve Bounce]

You do have a rather high opinion on Senna, don't you.

But let me put it to you from my perspective: I suspect that all teams push the boundaries on what is acceptable and what is illegal. If spying on another team to see how they set up a car, hiding some detail mod that is questionable, just to get an edge on their opponents, then they would do it if they think they would not get caught. Like barge boards, suspensions, brakes, software, wings, ...it's all been tried before.

But if a team principle thinks that a certain driver would resort to blackmail if he didn't get his way, by spilling the beans to Max, then the team principle might have second thoughts about hiring such a driver. Now you have an excellent driver who had a three year contract with a winning team, and the team principle has to "get rid" of this driver after just one year, you might start thinking whether it's better to stick with your current two drivers than to take a risk on such a driver.

It's like interviewing someone for a position in a company. His CV is excellent, he is capable, probably top of the grade at Oxford, but you find out that he could not get along at his previous employer for some serious reason and had to leave. Warning alarm bells start to ring and you look past the guy at the next applicant, don't you?

As good as I ever believed Fernando is, and I thought long ago that he would be WDC, if I owned an F1 team, I would be extremely cautious in considering him as a driver in my team after what transpired last year at McLaren.

I ask again, who is to say that if bunsen or Heidfeld or Rosberg was pedalling a McLaren last year that they wouldn't have been big winners also? (and everyone here knows I am not a fan of bunsen). Who really knows?

[markabilly]

You do have a rather high opinion on Senna, don't you.

But let me put it to you from my perspective: I suspect that all teams push the boundaries on what is acceptable and what is illegal. If spying on another team to see how they set up a car, hiding some detail mod that is questionable, just to get an edge on their opponents, then they would do it if they think they would not get caught. Like barge boards, suspensions, brakes, software, wings, ...it's all been tried before.

But if a team principle thinks that a certain driver would resort to blackmail if he didn't get his way, by spilling the beans to Max, then the team principle might have second thoughts about hiring such a driver. Now you have an excellent driver who had a three year contract with a winning team, and the team principle has to "get rid" of this driver after just one year, you might start thinking whether it's better to stick with your current two drivers than to take a risk on such a driver.

It's like interviewing someone for a position in a company. His CV is excellent, he is capable, probably top of the grade at Oxford, but you find out that he could not get along at his previous employer for some serious reason and had to leave. Warning alarm bells start to ring and you look past the guy at the next applicant, don't you?

As good as I ever believed Fernando is, and I thought long ago that he would be WDC, if I owned an F1 team, I would be extremely cautious in considering him as a driver in my team after what transpired last year at McLaren.

I ask again, who is to say that if bunsen or Heidfeld or Rosberg was pedalling a McLaren last year that they wouldn't have been big winners also? (and everyone here knows I am not a fan of bunsen). Who really knows?

I do not particularly disagree, except that all we really know is the letter of immunity was issued and FA complied and that RD called Max, after FA blew up over being kicked down five places on the grid because of his team mate, the same team mate who caused Mac to be investigated after Monaco.


So we have two instances where LH or his pop, went to the FIA with greivances that resulted in an investigation, one which investigation that arguably cost his team mate a WDC. We have RD calling MAx about emails after FA made some vague threat in a moment of anger.


We do not have any such documented evidence of FA doing anything but turning over emails. Otherwise just rumors.

So we have no real evidence, that unlike LH, FA threw his toys out of the pram.

Instead we have two documented episodes of Hamilton, throwing his toys out of the pram--twice---at the team who loves him!!! So who is the bigger baby?.

Initially, I thought very bad about FA when the stuff came out about the emails and his alleged blackmail, but after RD's testimony, it changed my view.....besides if two drivers (if not all three) were fully aware of what was going on with MC, then so was many others at Mac.........

Whatever happened after that, we do not particularly know. But we do know that FA was in a team where when he did well, he was treated casually by the team compared to when his team mate did well. He was in a team where early in the season his boss was talking how LH was the one True Mac, the one with Mac in his blood, and not some recycled driver from another team.

Plus FA was the quiet one, not going around like Hamiliton with all this "I am cooler than Kimi" and stuff about FA will not be my friend even though I tried so hard, but he is just not a team player ( Why? Because he does not accept his punishment at losing five grid places, for making LH unhappy???)

Like I said, it would not have been long before someone like Senna would have done far more to LH than whine to RD after that stuff....just like he did to that other driver....who was that other driver, Prost????? :D

So anyway, a team manager who wants to win, takes him if possible, but better do it right.

Of course now the latest is that he will return to Mac.... :roll:

I would absolutely say what a silly joke of a rumor, except that it may have to do with substantial sums of sponsorship money, so while Bstuff walks, money does talk...so who knows???

Personally, I think if Renault is not nailed to the cross and torn limb to limb, it will be reanult, but ......there is the sponsor money and that seems to be what it is all about.....

[SGWilko]

Yet despite the open celebrations in the pits by his own team when he was beaten in races or qualifying by his team mate etc and so forth, he still came within one point for a third consecutive WDC

Is the bottle of Kool Aid half empty, or half full.

Were they celebrating FA being beaten, or LH finishing in a strong position?

[markabilly]

Is the bottle of Kool Aid half empty, or half full.

Were they celebrating FA being beaten, or LH finishing in a strong position?
Good question--personally I do not care much for either of them, just I think that FA is getting an unfair knocking about being a rat, when everything is looked at, including the behavior of his team mate, with the same standards and scrutiny.

So I will stick to rooting for folks like Kimi, and missing poor old Scott Not Speedie, the one faint hope for usa, now gone for good along with Indy....

[Valve Bounce]

So I will stick to rooting for folks like Kimi, and missing poor old Scott Not Speedie, the one faint hope for usa, now gone for good along with Indy....


I cheer for Kimi also :) May I also recruit you into the Supr Aguri cheer squad? That's my favourite team right now.

[markabilly]

I cheer for Kimi also :) May I also recruit you into the Supr Aguri cheer squad? That's my favourite team right now.
I may have to have a go...but I wish they would hire Scottie.... :(

[SGWilko]

but I wish they would hire Scottie.... :(

Nah, can you imagine the radio conversation between race engineer and Scottie.

Engineer - Push Scottie, we're faster than him, we can get the points
Scottie - She cannie take much more captain........
:laugh:

[markabilly]

Back to what I was saying about BMW needing FA to put them over the top......here is BMW's own NF whining on and on about how dangerous it will be and so forth in 2008...so just one more reason why I say what I say, that if BMW wants a WDC in 2008, ....maybe they need to find somebody that has actually won at least one race in their long and lengthy career


http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2007/12/05/heidfeld-f1-wil-be-extremely-dangerous-in-2009/


oh welll.......

[rabf1]

I agree totally that BMW is foolish for not pursuing Alonso. But I do think Heidfeld is entitled to voice his opinion about the 2009 rules if he really thinks those rules are dangerous. His complaints sound a lot like Senna's before the 1994 season.

[keysersoze]

I'm inclined to think Force India will go with Klein to partner Sutil, unless they feel they need Fisichella's maturity and leadership to, among other benefits, be a mentor for Adrian.

But for Christian to be .3 quicker than GF on the same day is pretty impressive.

[Valve Bounce]

Back to what I was saying about BMW needing FA to put them over the top......here is BMW's own NF whining on and on about how dangerous it will be and so forth in 2008...so just one more reason why I say what I say, that if BMW wants a WDC in 2008, ....maybe they need to find somebody that has actually won at least one race in their long and lengthy career


http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2007/12/05/heidfeld-f1-wil-be-extremely-dangerous-in-2009/


oh welll.......


You're not seriously suggesting they should hire Ralfie, are you? :p :

[markabilly]

You're not seriously suggesting they should hire Ralfie, are you? :p :


I thought he quit racing a couple of years ago..... :s mokin:

[ioan]

unless they feel they need Fisichella's maturity and leadership to, among other benefits, be a mentor for Adrian.

Sutil won't spend his carrer with the FI team, so they have no incentive to take Fisi on board to mentor Sutil. Plus, I think that Klien is good enough to do it too.

[jas123f1]

You're not seriously suggesting they should hire Ralfie, are you? :p :

Maybe Ron will hire him - McLaren needs a guy like Ralf - so Lewis can win without any discussions :) (if they will win any races next season – which is not that sure).

Lewis is speaking that it’s so important to get a driver which is a team player (what he means with that, is probably "let him win") so maybe Ron gives de la Rosa a chance to be a "team player"? or Paffet ? Who knows? However it’s difficult to see that any of top drivers like to have a treatment like Alonso had (if it’s THAT they mean with a team player??).

Even Kimi agreed that Ferrari is much better team to work in "with nice people and good feeling". No money can compensate that and it's important in every human’s life. So I understand very well that Alonso didn’t like to accept to be that kind of "team player". Same time I agreed that it’s difficult to have two top drivers in a top team and may be that was it the filnal reason that Ron let Alonso go.

I think Renault has a big chance to get Alonso back in the team - now when FIA has decided that don’t punish them. But they need at least 2 years contract with him (possible 3). The question is who is in that case going to be his team mate Heikki K or Nelson P?

But - in fact – there are other teams too for Alonso, Red Bull and Honda are still possibilities – Red Bull with Newey and Honda with Ross Brawn – if they can have a top driver like Alonso - a contract for 3 years - and it’s not impossible that the team can be a winner.
It's more difficult to believe that BMW should fire Heidfeld or Kubica and Ferrari is out of discussion.

Silly season :)

:)

[Valve Bounce]

Sutil won't spend his carrer with the FI team, so they have no incentive to take Fisi on board to mentor Sutil. Plus, I think that Klien is good enough to do it too.


I can't make heads or tails of this post. ioan. Could you re-phrase it so it makes sense. Thanks.

Surely you are not suggesting they take on Klein to mentor Sutil. :confused:

OK, maybe you are - I'm just confused.

[keysersoze]

That's what he said.

But I don't agree with it. I can't imagine that Klein has either the time, ability, or the inclination to mentor anyone. Not that Sutil would listen; after all, this would be Klein's 4th team in five years.

Fisi has only raced with 4 teams in his, IIRC, 12-year career, and one of the teams had the faith to hire him a SECOND time. He may not be a top-line driver but he is the consummate professional in and out of the car (except when he lost his cool in Canada a couple of years ago).

[janneppi]

So, who's left? Kovalainen?
I just hope he doesn't end up with the keys to a Dacia Logan come first GP in 2008.
I can't say I'm happy with arrengement Flavio has built being the team boss and manager of his team's fifteen drivers.




Even Kimi agreed that Ferrari is much better team to work in "with nice people and good feeling". No money can compensate that and it's important in every human’s life. So I understand very well that Alonso didn’t like to accept to be that kind of "team player".
Silly season :)

:)
Well, I won't Kimi expect Kimi to talk about the negatives of working with Ferrari until he retires from that team, he didn't do it with Macca or Sauber either.
But then again, Kimi might even like working with Ferrari, at least as long as they win. ;)

[Valve Bounce]

I suppose we are all looking forward to the performance of Jr vis a vis Fernando. Maybe Jr could be as sensational as Lewis Hamilton in his first year in F1.

[janneppi]

My memories of Jr are mostly about him in GP2 2005 crashing into people as he tries to overtake them, hopefully he's matured a bit.

[ioan]

I can't make heads or tails of this post. ioan. Could you re-phrase it so it makes sense. Thanks.

Surely you are not suggesting they take on Klein to mentor Sutil. :confused:

OK, maybe you are - I'm just confused.

It must be the age Valve. :p :
However you got it right! ;)

[Valve Bounce]

My memories of Jr are mostly about him in GP2 2005 crashing into people as he tries to overtake them, hopefully he's matured a bit.


Well Fernando will have very interesting first corner drags in next year's races then. :eek:

[markabilly]

Well Fernando will have very interesting first corner drags in next year's races then. :eek:
Not if Jr. carefully reads his contract, and comes to understand that the "I" in team does not mean "Jr."

He probably will not be a good "team mate" if he is like his poppa, and perhaps Flavio is thinking that this might provide some extra incentive to FA...but unlike RD, he is probably not dishonest enough to pretend otherwise, and when it comes down to the wire, Flavio will want that title without putting his hopes on some rookie who might choke himself out of it, ,and will have no problem explaining that to Jr...so that Jr will understand he is just one of a pack of drivers managed by old flavio.......................

[Valve Bounce]

I don't think Flav will bother to explain anything to Jr - he has other ways to make sure Jr is not fast enough to challenge Fernando.

[SGWilko]

Well Fernando will have very interesting first corner drags in next year's races then. :eek:

Nah, he'll continue to replicate the Montreal special he did this year.....

[ioan]

I don't think Flav will bother to explain anything to Jr - he has other ways to make sure Jr is not fast enough to challenge Fernando.

But still fast enough to beat the others in order to protect FA and win the WCC?

We all know that this part about how they can slow down one driver in order to give an advantage to the other one is just a myth.

Both cars have to be as fast as possible in order to gather as many points as possible for the constructors championship. And a word with the less experienced driver is enough to make it clear who is the favored one.

[jas123f1]

So, who's left? Kovalainen?
I just hope he doesn't end up with the keys to a Dacia Logan come first GP in 2008.
I can't say I'm happy with arrengement Flavio has built being the team boss and manager of his team's fifteen drivers.

Well, I won't Kimi expect Kimi to talk about the negatives of working with Ferrari until he retires from that team, he didn't do it with Macca or Sauber either.
But then again, Kimi might even like working with Ferrari, at least as long as they win. ;)

Speaking about Kovalainen - i hope he gets (and take) a seat at Toyota there he can be the first driver of couple of years. I think Kova will be one of the best drivers now when cars are without tc.

and .. Kimi never speak B*** S*** of any one. I'm sure he had lot of things he didn't like at McLaren but he doesn't speak about that too much.. but it's clear that he likes Ferrari much more ... however now .. :)

[DazzlaF1]

Now i think there's only 3 seats left available (should be 4 but i suspect Super Aguri are delaying the inevitable in terms of Takuma Sato)

FERRARI: 1. Kimi Raikkonen, 2. Felipe Massa
BMW SAUBER: 3. Nick Heidfeld, 4. Robert Kubica
RENAULT: 5. Fernando Alonso, 6. Nelson Piquet jr
WILLIAMS: 7. Nico Rosberg, 8. Kazuki Nakajima
RED BULL: 9. David Coulthard, 10. Mark Webber
TOYOTA: 11. Jarno Trulli, 12. Timo Glock
TORO ROSSO: 14. Sebastien Vettel, 15, Sebastien Bourdais
HONDA: 16. Jenson Button, 17. Rubens Barrichello
SUPER AGURI: 18. Takuma Sato, 19. ???
FORCE INDIA: 20. Adrian Sutil, 21. ???
McLAREN: 22. Lewis Hamilton, 23. ???

LIKELY CANDIDATES
SUPER AGURI - In my view, almost certain to be Sato and Davidson again

FORCE INDIA - Fisichella has declared his interest as has Ralf Schumacher, the latter i dont think will get the drive, it makes Fisichella the favourite but i wold'nt be surprised if an Indian driver came into the reckoning (Karthikeyan or Chandhok)

McLAREN - Haug did say the names of 3 drivers he was considering, of which i think Kovalainen is the favourite

[keysersoze]

FORCE INDIA - Fisichella has declared his interest as has Ralf Schumacher, the latter i dont think will get the drive, it makes Fisichella the favourite but i wold'nt be surprised if an Indian driver came into the reckoning (Karthikeyan or Chandhok)

Christian Klein was the quickest of the, it seems, 58 drivers they tested last week. He was also quickest at the earlier test, ahead of Luizzi. To me, he has to be the favorite for the seat, with GF getting serious consideration for his experience. Luizzi is third IMO. If anyone gets the drive beside these three I'd opine that it would be a seriously flawed decision.

[Garry Walker]

Christian Klein was the quickest of the, it seems, 58 drivers they tested last week. He was also quickest at the earlier test, ahead of Luizzi. To me, he has to be the favorite for the seat, with GF getting serious consideration for his experience. Luizzi is third IMO. If anyone gets the drive beside these three I'd opine that it would be a seriously flawed decision.

According to what I have read, Fisichella was easily the fastest out of them all, only to get a problem on his last flying lap. He was also supposedly the only one being fast right out of the box, which impressed the team. I wouldnt mind him getting the drive, he deserves a new chance after the treatment he suffered at Renault.

Who is Luizzi?

Davidson is apparently going to be left without a seat :D

[keysersoze]

I didn't read that, Garry, but that certainly pleases me, as I'm a GF fan.
Did I misspell Vintantonio's last name? Oops.