French team's future hanging on FIA verdict is spying case

[CNR]

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/212559/renaults_f1_future.html


The former World Champions could withdraw if found guilty of using McLaren data

[wmcot]

I'll bet Bernie and Max won't let that happen! Money talks (and in F1, it yells!)

[F1boat]

It is likely that they will find them guilthy but will not punish them, like McLaren in July.

[nigelred5]

With Renault's results this year would seem to indicate they are inpossession of worthess information ;)

[Big Ben]

With Renault's results this year would seem to indicate they are inpossession of worthess information ;)

If they had information about the 2006 mclaren then that would explain this year`s results. :laugh:

[leopard]

yeah if this is true, they should have finished 2006 season equal to #3 or worse.

[wmcot]

If they had information about the 2006 mclaren then that would explain this year`s results. :laugh:

Couldn't have happened - not enough engine explosions! :)

[leopard]

Couldn't have happened - not enough engine explosions! :)
Why didn't you just make a ditto to my post? :)

[ArrowsFA1]

Fortunately the Renault case appears to be being "managed" in a far more measured way than we saw before.

[F1boat]

Arrows, what do you think will happen with Renault and what with McLaren?

[ArrowsFA1]

Arrows, what do you think will happen with Renault and what with McLaren?
No idea F1boat :crazy: :) Perhaps...

1) The Renault issue will be resolved quietly
or
2) Renault will be penalised in the same way McLaren were

[jas123f1]

No idea F1boat :crazy: :) Perhaps...

1) The Renault issue will be resolved quietly
or
2) Renault will be penalised in the same way McLaren were

The question is if it was Renault (Flavio?) who was taking the first the contact with FIA or if it was opposite. I think that is the key point - if the first contact was taken of Renault then they should go free. (imo)
The second is how high in the organisation the contact was taken because what employers do or speak with each other is not that serious than if it's people in a chief position in the team.

However - what I’m heard - take Renault contact to FIA as soon they did know about the CD disks. If it’s true I don’t know.

:)

[jso1985]

Couldn't have happened - not enough engine explosions! :)

they had McLaren info, not Mercedes ;)

[wmcot]

they had McLaren info, not Mercedes ;)

Good point! I forgot there was a difference for a moment.

[leopard]

No problem, it's a natural occurrence.

People tend to make assessment on current performance of a car based on what they saw this year and forgetting who drove the car out of ordinarily. :)

[AJP]

If Ghosn is saying that Renault will pull out if found guilty,
that is suggesting guilt in my book...and a case of blackmail.
Ghosn : "Hey Bernie! If you fine me, I'll pull Renault out of F1"
Bernie : Don't worry Ghosn, you can stay, if you pull out then I'll loose too much money, and look like a bigger dickhead than I already do."

[SGWilko]

If Ghosn is saying that Renault will pull out if found guilty,
that is suggesting guilt in my book...and a case of blackmail.
Ghosn : "Hey Bernie! If you fine me, I'll pull Renault out of F1"
Bernie : Don't worry Ghosn, you can stay, if you pull out then I'll loose too much money, and look like a bigger dickhead than I already do."

Why the fuss. Call their bluff and let them pull out, they will one day anyway. It's only a matter of time with the Reggie. History shows us their racing ethos.

If Ghosn is saying that Renault will pull out if found guilty,
that is suggesting guilt in my book...and a case of blackmail

It could just as easily be read as being a statement of innocence and that, if wrongly convicted, Renault will walk away from the sport.

[AJP]

It could just as easily be read as being a statement of innocence and that, if wrongly convicted, Renault will walk away from the sport.

yes I know...but where is the drama in that.. ;)

[maxu05]

They thought they had copied a Maclaren design, but it was actually a blueprint of a Minardi from 2003 :laugh:

[trumperZ06]

No idea F1boat :crazy: :) Perhaps...

1) The Renault issue will be resolved quietly
or
2) Renault will be penalised in the same way McLaren were


:dozey: Hhmmmm.... there is a very small difference between McLaren's & Renault's situation.

;) As far as I know... Mad Max is not on a...

VENDICTIVE WITCHHUNT

and so he is not trying to persecute Flavio !!!

Trumper :s mokin:

[RS]

The differences between the Ferrari-McLaren and McLaren-Renault case from what I have read are:

- McLaren>Renault involved a member actually moving team, not transfer of information between the two during a season.

- Renault apprantely went straight to the FIA and McLaren and invited them into their team as soon as the top brass found out about it. This is not what McLaren did as far as I remember and in my opinion was their biggest mistake.

[leopard]

It is likely that they will find them guilthy but will not punish them, like McLaren in July.
They will not find them guilty neither punish them, like accusation on illegal temperature fuel of Williams and BMW. :)

[SGWilko]

They will not find them guilty neither punish them, like accusation on illegal temperature fuel of Williams and BMW. :)

Wow, you're crystal ball is on form this morning!!! ;)

What it boils down to I guess is, was the guy that left McLaren to work for the Reggie entitled to take McLaren IP with him?

If yes, then no problem. (most unlikely)

If no, then there is indeed a punishable offence. But, let us not forget that this is not the only crime here. The data was then loaded (is that intent to use?) onto the Renault computer system (assume a team members lappy is Renault property, and constitutes the Renault IT therefore). This data was then shown to and seen by a not insignificant number of senior personell.

Now, Renault may well have taken themselves off to Speakers Corner at Marble Arch and confessed to the world and his dog, but the crime has nonetheless been committed.

Coupled with the Flav - whiter than white attitude during the Stepneygate episode and you can see that all is not rosy across the Channel (well, Enstone, but Renault is French).

[ioan]

The hypocrites are at it again:



McLaren are adamant that rivals Renault did gain a 'clear benefit and unfair advantage' from the use of the intellectual property that is at the centre of the latest spy controversy surrounding the French car manufacturer, autosport.com has learned.




The exact nature of this information has also been made clear in the FIA submission. It has been revealed that the matter revolves around 33 files of confidential technical information that was copied onto 11 old-style floppy discs.

It is understood these files contained more than 780 individual drawings that outlined the entire technical blueprint of the 2006 and 2007 McLaren car. The figure of 780 drawings is very similar to the number of drawings in the Ferrari dossier that McLaren chief designer Mike Coughlan was found to have in his possession earlier this year.


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64091

So they first said that they gained no advantage from the 780+ pages of Ferrari technical documentation their chief designer had, but now they say that Renault did gain a clear advantage.

How clear an advantage is that when you go from WCC to a lucky 3rd place?

And while we are at it I honestly don't know if the plans for a modern F1 car can be packed into 11 floppys, let alone the fact that a F1 car does have way more than 780 components.

[I am evil Homer]

If you Zip the data it's very easy to store many MBs of data on a single disc - easily enough for technical drawings. I've just zipped 35 PDF docs onto a single disc (yes it was very boring to do!!!!).

Technical blueprint could be anything...a screen grab of a CAD file for example would be no more - file size - than a standard Word document, rather than the CAD file itself.

[ArrowsFA1]

How clear an advantage is that when you go from WCC to a lucky 3rd place?
The measure of guilt, or otherwise, is not Renault's WCC position. It is them having access to McLaren data and, according to the report you quote, the data, and the level of access, was quite extensive.

The McLaren/Ferrari case is done & dusted. McLaren were found guilty and penalised. Perhaps we should try and set that aside, and (try to) look at the Renault case separately.

[MAX_THRUST]

Either way Renault had info it shouldn't as did Ron's team. Ron's team gets hammered in court, will Renault???

If nothing happens, Max is gonna look stupid. If they do and renault pulls out, Max is gonna look stupid. Either way Max is a twat!!!

Don't stir up the hornets nest if you don't wanna get stung. Max has started something that could make him and Bernie look not only stupid, but vindictive, corrupt, and puts F1 in a poor light as bad as the tour de france has looked with drugs scandals in recent years.

On their own they have managed to damage the public perception of F1 in one season, when things had started to look really possitive. If you were a manufacturer, you've got to be panicing that none of your staff have access to priveledged information. Which all the staff must have to do their jobs. It's been going on for years, and has been ignored, should have left it that way.....

[airshifter]

The measure of guilt, or otherwise, is not Renault's WCC position. It is them having access to McLaren data and, according to the report you quote, the data, and the level of access, was quite extensive.

The McLaren/Ferrari case is done & dusted. McLaren were found guilty and penalised. Perhaps we should try and set that aside, and (try to) look at the Renault case separately.

Agreed. The previous case should have nothing at all to do with this case, other than possibly a precedent used if guilt is found.

If Renault cheated their way in, other teams lost out. To me that part of the issue should require a much more complete investigation than took place in the Mclaren case. Desiring to incorporate changes and doing it are two differing things, and the advantage only comes if it actually took place.

[fandango]

I think it's actually in McLaren's interest now that Renault DON'T get heavily penalised. The FIA still have to evaluate the 2008 McLaren, so it would be in McLaren's favour to appear as victims at this point, as it would probably lessen or lighten the scrutiny and/or punsihment. And then the whole thing could be quietly swept under the carpet and forgotten in time for the new season.

[markabilly]

The hypocrites are at it again:


The hypocrites are at it again:



Originally Posted by autosport.com http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/aria/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=0#post0)
McLaren are adamant that rivals Renault did gain a 'clear benefit and unfair advantage' from the use of the intellectual property that is at the centre of the latest spy controversy surrounding the French car manufacturer, autosport.com has learned.



Originally Posted by autosport.com http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/aria/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=0#post0)
The exact nature of this information has also been made clear in the FIA submission. It has been revealed that the matter revolves around 33 files of confidential technical information that was copied onto 11 old-style floppy discs.

It is understood these files contained more than 780 individual drawings that outlined the entire technical blueprint of the 2006 and 2007 McLaren car. The figure of 780 drawings is very similar to the number of drawings in the Ferrari dossier that McLaren chief designer Mike Coughlan was found to have in his possession earlier this year.



http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64091

So they first said that they gained no advantage from the 780+ pages of Ferrari technical documentation their chief designer had, but now they say that Renault did gain a clear advantage.

How clear an advantage is that when you go from WCC to a lucky 3rd place?

And while we are at it I honestly don't know if the plans for a modern F1 car can be packed into 11 floppys, let alone the fact that a F1 car does have way more than 780 components.

And just what is it that makes everyone so certain that these blueprints were actually the Mac car and not that of a certain competitor.......as in oooooppss, downloaded the wrong file on to me floppys :eek:

[Big Ben]

I`m loving this... It's something neither Max nor Bernie expected when they came up with that ridiculous fine. I don't see what can they do now and pretend afterwards they were honest in what they did while keeping Renault in f1 and the other teams satisfied with the decision.

They will probably go against common sense again as they did before...

After all they don't have to take any decision against their favorite team so it's pretty simple for them...

as for the Mchypocrits... I wonder how much did it count for them that FA will probably be a renault driver next year?

[ioan]

The McLaren/Ferrari case is done & dusted. McLaren were found guilty and penalised. Perhaps we should try and set that aside, and (try to) look at the Renault case separately.

As you say, let's look at it separately. But what if the FIA looks to it separately and completely independent from the McWhatever case they will decide that Renault aren't in the same situation? I bet you would like them not to separate things that much.

I hope Renault are found guilty and punished.

My point was just to point out another case of hypocrisy from RD and his cheating band.

[ioan]

I don't see what can they do now and pretend afterwards they were honest in what they did while keeping Renault in f1 and the other teams satisfied with the decision.

That's why you are not the FIA president nor the F1 supremo. I bet they already know what and how they will do! ;)

[ioan]

And just what is it that makes everyone so certain that these blueprints were actually the Mac car and not that of a certain competitor.......as in oooooppss, downloaded the wrong file on to me floppys :eek:

Nah, Stepney wasn't selling Ferrari data to Mc.... last season, he only went mad in February this year.

[passmeatissue]

as for the Mchypocrits... I wonder how much did it count for them that FA will probably be a renault driver next year?

Ron could have really stitched Fernando up, if he was vindictive, by waiting for him to sign for Renault, and then the various other seats to be confirmed, before making the complaint. But he didn't.

My suspicion is that Ron asked Max to back off on the 2008 car ideas issue, and Max wouldn't. So then Ron, as you say, put Max on the spot. Max will have to work hard to reconcile the Renault and McLaren 2007 penalties, and Ron is betting that then even Max will struggle to make a case for extra McLaren 2008 penalties.

Damage to Flav (who if you ask me is the real hypocrite) is just a bonus.

[ArrowsFA1]

As you say, let's look at it separately. But what if the FIA looks to it separately and completely independent from the McWhatever case they will decide that Renault aren't in the same situation? I bet you would like them not to separate things that much.
If the judgement in the Renault case is that they are as guilty as McLaren were found to be then no, I would not like them to separate the cases in terms of the penalty imposed. However, we've yet to hear all the evidence and in that sense they are very separate cases and I hope the FIA deal with them as such.

However, the FIA have set a precedent in the way they dealt with the McLaren/Ferrari case, and they need to be seen to be acting consistently.

You could argue that perhaps McLaren would not be pursuing Renault in this way if things had not gone against them. By that I mean it seems to be generally accepted that 'under-the-table' exchanges of information have always gone on in F1. Having "exposed" this practice and penalised McLaren the FIA have rather painted themselves into an unforseen corner.

[Bagwan]

You could argue that perhaps McLaren would not be pursuing Renault in this way if things had not gone against them. By that I mean it seems to be generally accepted that 'under-the-table' exchanges of information have always gone on in F1. Having "exposed" this practice and penalised McLaren the FIA have rather painted themselves into an unforseen corner.

Characterizing it as "painting themselves into an unforeseen corner" , spins it to look as if the FIA were the only party responsible for this mess .

Whilst "generally accepted" , likely to the degree that the info has to be screened for "red herrings" , it is the fact that it was a complete set of plans that made it's way to Ron's team that makes this worthy of FIA intervention .
As far as I know , this amount of data is without precedent .

The official word from McLaren , before the e-mail story broke , was that there was no use made of the info , and nothing red on the car .
You then had sanction , when found guilty .

Official word from Renault is the same line , that no use was made of the info .

They must now use the same methods to determine whether Flavio's team was cheating .
Of course , we remember then , that the FIA had nothing on Ron until Fernando's and Pedro's e-mails , and that those only surfaced as the drivers started to fight .
And , look over at Renault .
I have heard nary a peep about inequality there . Kovi and the fish seemed happy along-side each other .

It doesn't seem like anyone needs blackmailing at Renault , so we may never see enough proof to sanction .

It will be a big black cloud , though , but not one likely to be as big as Ron's .

Certainly , this stuff goes on , but this level of theft was too much .
It had to be dealt with , and the FIA came up with a solution that kept a team in the running , yet appeased those who would have seen them expelled outright .
They must now do the same , if found guilty .


One thing likely to occur as a result of this mess , is that teams will tend to protect data more vigorously , and think long and hard about accepting full sets of plans in future .

[markabilly]

There really is not much point in this thread, Max has read well his copy of The Prince and demonstrated it's use quite well....so I will repeat the contents of the post in the thread on Silly Season II:


If Renault took the hit, they might fold their tent, "sell" part or the whole team stuff to Red Bull, have Red Bull become "Red Bull-Renault"....and who knows, maybe bag a WDC in 2008

And they already have their own brand of Kool Aid for everyone drink..... :beer:


But it just would not be good for the sport to do something really painful and fatal to Renault ("deserving gots nothing to do with it") and eliminate potential revenue from the possible soap opera of having the spectacular thrill of seeing FA run his old team and enemies to ground while they fight him off brutually at every corner, now would it?????


Even more importantly, bernie is flavio's favio sports team partner--(and just when/how/why was that deal signed and how much money went through and into whose hands???), so methinks that there will be much bashing of Renault for the month of December, much sound and fury, but in the end, signifying nothing................. :vader:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7108758.stm

"McLaren have accused Renault of possessing their team information and gaining an "unfair advantage" from it.

The BBC has seen a McLaren dossier that says the information was "knowingly and widely disseminated" within Renault.

McLaren were fined $100m (£47.5m) and thrown out of the constructors' championship after being found guilty on a similar charge in September.

Renault face a hearing next month on a charge of unauthorised possession of confidential McLaren information.

Motorsport's governing body the FIA says the information includes "the layout and critical dimensions of the McLaren F1 car, fuelling system, gear assembly, oil cooling system, hydraulic control system and a novel suspension component used by the 2006 and 2007 cars".

The BBC has learned that McLaren's dossier - which has been submitted to the FIA - includes 18 witness statements in which Renault F1 employees admit that they viewed confidential technical information belonging to McLaren.

McLaren also contend that 33 files belonging to the team, containing more than 780 individual drawings outlining the entire technical blueprint of the 2006 and 2007 McLaren F1 cars, were loaded onto Renault's computer system in September 2006.

McLaren's dossier states that the files were discussed by up to 18 Renault F1 personnel, including a group of senior engineering chiefs and heads of department.

Renault recently said that former McLaren employee Phil Mackereth had loaded some team information onto their F1 file system "without the knowledge of anyone in authority in the team".

Renault also invited McLaren's independent experts to assess the team's computer systems and inspect the cars and design records, to demonstrate there had been no influence on the design of the cars.

Following a formal internal investigation, Mackereth was suspended by Renault and the floppy disks were returned to McLaren.

McLaren's solicitors, Baker McKenzie, have also complained in writing to Renault's solicitors, Withers, of a "cavalier attitude" on the part of senior Renault personnel during the investigation.

Further complaints relate to a number of written responses from Renault personnel that are "incomplete" or "misleading".

A Renault spokesman said: "We will be making no further comment until the hearing of December 6."





I seem to recall certain people on the forum complaining of Ferrari leaking info to the media when Stepneygate was yet to go before the WMSC.

Presumably those same people will now lambast Mclaren for the same thing?

[ioan]

I seem to recall certain people on the forum complaining of Ferrari leaking info to the media when Stepneygate was yet to go before the WMSC.

Presumably those same people will now lambast Mclaren for the same thing?

That's what you would expect. But I doubt it. /:

[markabilly]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7108758.stm

"McLaren have accused Renault of possessing their team information and gaining an "unfair advantage" from it.

The BBC has seen a McLaren dossier that says the information was "knowingly and widely disseminated" within Renault.

McLaren were fined $100m (£47.5m) and thrown out of the constructors' championship after being found guilty on a similar charge in September.

Renault face a hearing next month on a charge of unauthorised possession of confidential McLaren information.

Motorsport's governing body the FIA says the information includes "the layout and critical dimensions of the McLaren F1 car, fuelling system, gear assembly, oil cooling system, hydraulic control system and a novel suspension component used by the 2006 and 2007 cars".

The BBC has learned that McLaren's dossier - which has been submitted to the FIA - includes 18 witness statements in which Renault F1 employees admit that they viewed confidential technical information belonging to McLaren.

McLaren also contend that 33 files belonging to the team, containing more than 780 individual drawings outlining the entire technical blueprint of the 2006 and 2007 McLaren F1 cars, were loaded onto Renault's computer system in September 2006.

McLaren's dossier states that the files were discussed by up to 18 Renault F1 personnel, including a group of senior engineering chiefs and heads of department.

Renault recently said that former McLaren employee Phil Mackereth had loaded some team information onto their F1 file system "without the knowledge of anyone in authority in the team".

Renault also invited McLaren's independent experts to assess the team's computer systems and inspect the cars and design records, to demonstrate there had been no influence on the design of the cars.

Following a formal internal investigation, Mackereth was suspended by Renault and the floppy disks were returned to McLaren.

McLaren's solicitors, Baker McKenzie, have also complained in writing to Renault's solicitors, Withers, of a "cavalier attitude" on the part of senior Renault personnel during the investigation.

Further complaints relate to a number of written responses from Renault personnel that are "incomplete" or "misleading".

A Renault spokesman said: "We will be making no further comment until the hearing of December 6."





I seem to recall certain people on the forum complaining of Ferrari leaking info to the media when Stepneygate was yet to go before the WMSC.

Presumably those same people will now lambast Mclaren for the same thing?


.................................................. ............................
so methinks that there will be much bashing of Renault for the month of December, much sound and fury, but in the end, signifying nothing................. :vader:

so it begins................

[Garry Walker]

Same punishment for Renault as for McLaren then, aka, letting them off too easy.

[ozrevhead]

Sorry if this has been asked - will the resullt of the Renault investigation have an impact on Redbull as they have Renault factory engines??????

[CNR]

Sorry if this has been asked - will the resullt of the Renault investigation have an impact on Redbull as they have Renault factory engines??????


Renault Sport awards a 3-year contract to Mecachrome for F1 engines

2 days ago
MONTREAL - Mecachrome International Inc. (TSX:MCH) has won a contract renewal for the manufacture and assembly of Formula One engines developed by Renault Sport.
The contract is for three years, running until the end of the 2010 season, Montreal-based Mecachrome said Thursday. Financial details were not disclosed.
"Renault Sport and Mecachrome have been collaborating for many years in the high-performance motor sports sector, particularly in the Formula One World Championship, and have developed a long-term partnership based on their respective know-how and experience," Mecachrome said in a release.
Renault Sport is the motor sports division of French automaker Renault involved in the development of F1 engines.
Mecachrome makes precision-engineered components for aircraft and automotive applications, including aerostructural and aircraft engine components, high-end automobile engine components and motor racing engines.
The company operates 11 state-of-the-art facilities, principally in France and Canada, and employs over 2,000 people.

[markabilly]

Same punishment for Renault as for McLaren then, aka, letting them off too easy.

Well there were two punishments, indeed some thought the first was too harsh

Some thought the second was too easy

Now if "renault" whatever that corporate entity that be that is the F1 team, took a hit, what is to stop them from folding that tent of the team, saying we will not pay, and if no pay, no play...then sold that part..????


or do they get sued (I know Max thinks the FIA is the government, but they can not jail them for not paying....)??????

but unlike Mac, Renault could say no, and still do well as a corporate entity as they did for years without F1 either chassis or engines--Mac was not in position to just fold up and survive




Sorry if this has been asked - will the resullt of the Renault investigation have an impact on Redbull as they have Renault factory engines??????


Perhaps the answer to that question is this:




Renault Sport awards a 3-year contract to Mecachrome for F1 engines

2 days ago
MONTREAL - Mecachrome International Inc. (TSX:MCH) has won a contract renewal for the manufacture and assembly of Formula One engines developed by Renault Sport.
The contract is for three years, running until the end of the 2010 season, Montreal-based Mecachrome said Thursday. Financial details were not disclosed.
"Renault Sport and Mecachrome have been collaborating for many years in the high-performance motor sports sector, particularly in the Formula One World Championship, and have developed a long-term partnership based on their respective know-how and experience," Mecachrome said in a release.
Renault Sport is the motor sports division of French automaker Renault involved in the development of F1 engines.
Mecachrome makes precision-engineered components for aircraft and automotive applications, including aerostructural and aircraft engine components, high-end automobile engine components and motor racing engines.
The company operates 11 state-of-the-art facilities, principally in France and Canada, and employs over 2,000 people.

[ArrowsFA1]

Characterizing it as "painting themselves into an unforeseen corner" , spins it to look as if the FIA were the only party responsible for this mess.
Not at all. Of course the FIA are not the only party responsible for this mess. Far from it. But they are partly responsible.

My point was did anyone forsee that there would be another (apparently very similar) case so soon? I doubt whether the FIA expected to have to deal with another case for some time, if at all, having imposed the kind of penalty they did.

Now that they are in that situation comparisons are unfortunately inevitable. Every report (or "leak") that appears will be compared and used against one team or another, every comment made will be analysed in the context of the earlier case etc etc. That has far more to do with the spread of, and competition for, "news" on the internet, and the readiness with which we can all comment on that "news" on forums like this, than it does with the facts whatever they turn out to be!

[Valve Bounce]

Yep!!

[passmeatissue]

Not at all. Of course the FIA are not the only party responsible for this mess. Far from it. But they are partly responsible.

My point was did anyone forsee that there would be another (apparently very similar) case so soon? I doubt whether the FIA expected to have to deal with another case for some time, if at all, having imposed the kind of penalty they did.

This is interesting, because Max did know about Renault's floppies during the McLaren hearings - McLaren made sure he did. Max was talking about "3 floppies" (I thought 'the old fart hasn't even heard of CD's', but I was wrong!).

To a lawyer precedent is everything, so if he was thinking clearly he would certainly have seen this coming.

It rather looks as though Max' strategy is going to be to keep quiet this time, and let Renault's fate, whatever it is, be someone else's fault.

It will be interesting to see if he then comes to life again on the 7th.

[ioan]

To a lawyer precedent is everything, so if he was thinking clearly he would certainly have seen this coming.

There are several differences between the 2 cases, one of them being the fact that the information exchange was not ongoing over a long period of time but only happened once when Mackereth changed teams.

So, what is worth the precedent if it's proved that the cases are however different from the go?!

[passmeatissue]

There are several differences between the 2 cases, one of them being the fact that the information exchange was not ongoing over a long period of time but only happened once when Mackereth changed teams.

So, what is worth the precedent if it's proved that the cases are however different from the go?!

What if? What if it's proved that the sun rose in the West this morning?

There are differences, and there is the similarity of illegal possession of IP that creates the precedent.

[jas123f1]

I don't think a team can’t be punished too hard if it’s a question about an isolated case and if it’s a new employed person who has this information with him. My opinion is that if FIA make several future investigations at Renault and if they can’t find anything it’s enough with kicking out the Phil Mackereth.

Even if "McLaren's dossier" states that the files were discussed by up to 18 Renault F1 personnel, including a group of senior engineering chiefs and heads of department it means not that much if it’s true what people from Renault are saying - that it was Phil Mackereth who had loaded some McLaren information onto their F1 file system, but he did it "without the knowledge of anyone in authority in the team".

Mackereth is suspended by Renault and the floppy disks are returned to McLaren.

It’s difficult to compare this with the "McLaren/Ferrari spying scandal" because there was 2 chief person involved and not a new employed man as here. :)

[ioan]

What if? What if it's proved that the sun rose in the West this morning?

This is your "intelligent" answer or should I hope that you can do better? :rolleyes:

[passmeatissue]

I don't think a team can’t be punished too hard if it’s a question about an isolated case and if it’s a new employed person who has this information with him. My opinion is that if FIA make several future investigations at Renault and if they can’t find anything it’s enough with kicking out the Phil Mackereth.

Even if "McLaren's dossier" states that the files were discussed by up to 18 Renault F1 personnel, including a group of senior engineering chiefs and heads of department it means not that much if it’s true what people from Renault are saying - that it was Phil Mackereth who had loaded some McLaren information onto their F1 file system, but he did it "without the knowledge of anyone in authority in the team".

Mackereth is suspended by Renault and the floppy disks are returned to McLaren.

It’s difficult to compare this with the "McLaren/Ferrari spying scandal" because there was 2 chief person involved and not a new employed man as here. :)

The difficulty for Renault is that senior people were involved, and apparently have admitted looking at the drawings which were installed on their system for months.

There are differences, but there is no way the two cases are not going to be compared.

Also if the FIA is going to say the Renault episode must not happen again, which they will, they have to apply a deterrent penalty.

[passmeatissue]

This is your "intelligent" answer or should I hope that you can do better? :rolleyes:

I sounded a bit intolerant ioan, excuse me. It was just to point out that when you say "what if it's proved that..." then obviously any following statement will be true.

[ioan]

I sounded a bit intolerant ioan, excuse me. It was just to point out that when you say "what if it's proved that..." then obviously any following statement will be true.

Ofcourse, that was the idea. I won't start with "what if" just to state something that makes no sense.

A "what if" means for me that there is a possibility for what follows.
If however you disagree than feel free to comment, just leave out the sarcasm! :)

[BDunnell]

Why is sarcasm not OK in this case, yet acceptable in others?

[ioan]

Why is sarcasm not OK in this case, yet acceptable in others?

Just to make you ask this question. :rolleyes:

[Hondo]

Contract with Mecachrome? Sounds like the're getting ready to get out. Go ask Williams if they want to buy some Mecachrome engines.

[SGWilko]

Contract with Mecachrome? Sounds like the're getting ready to get out. Go ask Williams if they want to buy some Mecachrome engines.

Nah, sounds like they are calling Bernie/Max's bluff......

There are differences, but there is no way the two cases are not going to be compared.

One difference....maybe one whose importance should not be overlooked.... is that Renault themselves have fully co-operated with Mclaren, letting Mclaren have access to their internal computer systems and being forthright and honest with the FIA....

....which, if I recall correctly, was not what Mclaren before their first Stepneygate hearing (they did their own internal investigation which conveniently never checked Coughlans, De la Rosa or Alonso's emails) and that was the thing that really fecked them in the second hearing.

As it stands at the moment, Renault have not fecked off the FIA by being uncooperative.

Therefore, there are substantial differences as it appears at present.

Remind me again, what was the verdict in the first Stepneygate hearing?

[SGWilko]

One difference....maybe one whose importance should not be overlooked.... is that Renault themselves have fully co-operated with Mclaren, letting Mclaren have access to their internal computer systems and being forthright and honest with the FIA....

....which, if I recall correctly, was not what Mclaren before their first Stepneygate hearing (they did their own internal investigation which conveniently never checked Coughlans, De la Rosa or Alonso's emails) and that was the thing that really fecked them in the second hearing.

As it stands at the moment, Renault have not fecked off the FIA by being uncooperative.

Therefore, there are substantial differences as it appears at present.

Remind me again, what was the verdict in the first Stepneygate hearing?

I know it's all ifs and buts......

.....but why did Renault keep quiet about all this during the stepneygate affair.

Surely, keeping this up their sleeve is likely to at lease d*ck the FIA around a little, and possible cause a little embarrasement.....

[passmeatissue]

One difference....maybe one whose importance should not be overlooked.... is that Renault themselves have fully co-operated with Mclaren, letting Mclaren have access to their internal computer systems and being forthright and honest with the FIA....

....which, if I recall correctly, was not what Mclaren before their first Stepneygate hearing (they did their own internal investigation which conveniently never checked Coughlans, De la Rosa or Alonso's emails) and that was the thing that really fecked them in the second hearing.

As it stands at the moment, Renault have not fecked off the FIA by being uncooperative.

Therefore, there are substantial differences as it appears at present.

Remind me again, what was the verdict in the first Stepneygate hearing?

Well I am not sure about this. I agree McLaren annoyed the WMSC by telling lies, and Max did say this made things worse. However Flav initially told Max there were only 3 floppies and that it was all nothing significant.

In their leak McLaren have said there were 30 floppies and that Renault have been misleading in what they have admitted to so far. Certainly Flav seems to have been trying to present it as Renault making the discovery and coming clean, but it does seem certain that it only came to light because their ex-Renault engineer told McLaren about it. Also McLaren say their inspectors were not fully satisfied with Renault's cooperation.

So I'm waiting to see. I think it's a pity the FIA are basically treating it as a dispute and leaving McLaren to do the prosecuting. I am hoping McLaren will soft-pedal it, but a bit nervous that with their normal PR ineptitude they will end up looking bad again.

Max' performance is going to be very interesting, anyway, pity it won't be live, on the 6th!

As to the first WMSC verdict, McLaren were found technically guilty of possession of illegal IP, by one of their staff in his private house. This basic finding was hyped up in the statement to appease the Ferrari lobby, but this backfired when no-one understood why there was no penalty.

[ArrowsFA1]

...why did Renault keep quiet about all this during the stepneygate affair.
Being cooperative now, more than 12 months after Phil Mackareth apparently took the data from McLaren, may suggest more a fear of what penalty could be imposed, than a spirit of cooperation.

[markabilly]

[quote="tamburello"]

....which, if I recall correctly, was not what Mclaren before their first Stepneygate hearing (they did their own internal investigation which conveniently never checked Coughlans, De la Rosa or Alonso's emails) and that was the thing that really fecked them in the second hearing.

quote]


Something never mentioned but I have recently wondered.

Why was FA chosen by MC to be the one along with Pedro, to be telling them all about the secret source of all this info that was being tested, BUT NO ONE else, not even LH?

Here is the totally new guy, basically unknown, and then there is LH, the one true Mac dirver, the one with Mac in his blood, not one of those useless recycled drivers like FA, who had been hanging around for years.........or maybe he did tell him and others as well???

Of course LH appears to be totally unaware of such, but how could he not know, either from MC who was with them when LH was testing and racing the year before??

Maybe LH just does not save his emails or use emails to discuss such matters??

And if so well known by Pedro and FA about what was being tested and where it came from, such that they freely discuss it in emails, then why not RD and other top dogs??????

[F1boat]

Being cooperative now, more than 12 months after Phil Mackareth apparently took the data from McLaren, may suggest more a fear of what penalty could be imposed, than a spirit of cooperation.

Probably it is true. I think that Renault and Macca will be neighbours next year in the pits.

[rabf1]

To me, the Renault "misconduct" sounds FAR more serious than the McLaren "misconduct." They loaded the designs on their computers and more than a dozen engineers looked at them. The FIA has really got themselves into a spot now. They are going to have to wack Renault if they are fair.

[SGWilko]

if they are fair.


There, that makes for a great piece of rhetoric, doesn't it?

[BDunnell]

To me, the Renault "misconduct" sounds FAR more serious than the McLaren "misconduct." They loaded the designs on their computers and more than a dozen engineers looked at them. The FIA has really got themselves into a spot now. They are going to have to wack Renault if they are fair.

If there is any evidence that confirms 100 per cent that the McLaren data was more widely used by Renault than the Ferrari data was within McLaren. I agree that the Renault situation sounds more serious for those reasons, but evidence is what's required, and there was absolutely none with regard to McLaren in the previous case.

[leopard]

I think slightly different, McLaren scandal was investigated in the running season and the result may give effect to those sentenced guilty, the 2005-6 winner has been already decided, annulling the result may effect to FIA credibility that they didn't and never ever serve any legitimate season. :down:

McLaren scandal was sentenced free in July, if McLaren performed solid teamwork with all their driver favoritism issue needn't have occurred they may remain free, as it may have caused them come up again to surface, and finally they got the disadvantageous consequence.

[passmeatissue]

Grandprix.com are pointing out that the entry list normally comes out on 1st December, but hasn't yet this year.

They are speculating that the FIA are waiting in case Renault are moved down the 2007 classification on Thursday, which would affect the car numbers for 2008.

As a bit of extra speculation, I'm wondering if the rumoured row between Flav and Fernando, over Fernando's delaying, is because Flav wanted FA signed up before Thursday so that there would be a Fernando Factor working for him, like there was for McLaren.

If so, a couple of small signs that Flav has something to worry about.

[samehere]

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/212559/renaults_f1_future.html

I hope they will stay...they were the only team able to beat ferari three years ago...there was no one who was that good...and remeber the last season??what advantage would renault get from mclaren??the silver cars were just a wreck...

[SGWilko]

I hope they will stay...they were the only team able to beat ferari three years ago...there was no one who was that good...and remeber the last season??what advantage would renault get from mclaren??the silver cars were just a wreck...

3 years ago, do you mean in 2004? Because the only team to beat Ferrari then was BAR. I suspect you mean 2005......

[PSfan]

3 years ago, do you mean in 2004? Because the only team to beat Ferrari then was BAR. I suspect you mean 2005......

hmmm 2004 race wins:

Ferrari - 15
Renault - 1
McLeran - 1
Williams - 1
Honda - 0

And if I remember correctly Renault where in good position to finish 2nd in the constructors, but choose to start development on the 05 car early, and basically gave Honda 2nd...

[SGWilko]

hmmm 2004 race wins:

Ferrari - 15
Renault - 1
McLeran - 1
Williams - 1
Honda - 0

And if I remember correctly Renault where in good position to finish 2nd in the constructors, but choose to start development on the 05 car early, and basically gave Honda 2nd...

You spotted my deliberate ;) mistake.

I did actually of course mean the only team closest to Ferrari. Well, at least I knew what I meant, I think. :)

[markabilly]

let me see, unlike RD and some others, I say Max is right now reading up on his well used copy of "The Prince", so based on that, it seems some relatively minor fine or point docking on Flavio aka bernie's business partner......but that is all..plus some stupid writing that self serves what they did and distinguishes Mac from renault somehow, true or not, ................ all done in the interests of the sport......

and if Renault is real stupid like Mac, they will appeal, but if not they smile, and pay to play next year....all warm and happy with freddie or maybe not with freddie

[ioan]

So the McLiars did lie again 2 weeks ago, and what was reported than on their behalf was not even close to reality.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64285

I wonder when are they going to stop this dishonest behavior?
Luckily the FIA asked them to correct the erroneous information they made public a few weeks ago!

[markabilly]

So the McLiars did lie again 2 weeks ago, and what was reported than on their behalf was not even close to reality.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64285

I wonder when are they going to stop this dishonest behavior?
Luckily the FIA asked them to correct the erroneous information they made public a few weeks ago!
How dare you make such a charge...simple matter of some typos on numbers and such...easy mistakes to make when you are weaving a tangled web....

the next thing you will be slandering them over is that "rule clarification only appeal/non-appeal that did not seek points but the drivers should be disqualified..." which is past history of at least a month ago......and then bringing up all this other nonsense......

My guess is you will be pointing out how their constant mclying...i mean simple mis-communication and typos is somehow making the sport look bad and some how contributing to unfairly damaging another competitor.....warranting another 100 million fine or some other unfirness

you just need a big glass of kool aid...and it will all be okay!!!!

[Valve Bounce]

So the McLiars did lie again 2 weeks ago, and what was reported than on their behalf was not even close to reality.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64285

I wonder when are they going to stop this dishonest behavior?
Luckily the FIA asked them to correct the erroneous information they made public a few weeks ago!

We are very grateful to have you here in the forum as the TRUTH IDENTIFIER Police Chief.

Don't know what this forum would be like without you!! :(

[truefan72]

So the McLiars did lie again 2 weeks ago, and what was reported than on their behalf was not even close to reality.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64285

I wonder when are they going to stop this dishonest behavior?
Luckily the FIA asked them to correct the erroneous information they made public a few weeks ago!


First of all they corrected technical inaccuracies in the press release. And once/if you read them you will see that they were negligible errors at best.

please focus your "anger" at Renault instead, 'cause even with the corrected statement, this evidence is about 10x worse than anything that McClaren are alleged to have done. It is ironic that you are venting your anger towards the accusing team instread of the culprits, for if we go back to the Stepney gate scenario, I would assume that LDiM and JT and Ferrari are then all liars in your book for some of the outlandish allegations they made, right?

IMO tomorrow is a make or break day for Formula 1 in 2008, and unfortunatey, I don't have a good feeling about all of this.

I'll be the first to say that I'm not to keen on seeing Renault leave, A monetary fine would suffice in my book.

I do miss the good old days when these things were resolved between the teams ( as Renault and McClaren originally did) before ferrari and MM opened the pandora's box .

They won the battle but are losing the war. MM is using the highest and most prestigous racing series as his backdrop to wage an ignorant and personal warfare against those he doesn't like. ...and we all have to watch it. As much as I love F1, if this becomes a farce, I'll stop watching and support whatever breakaway series that may be formed.

[Valve Bounce]

First of all they corrected technical inaccuracies in the press release. And once/if you read them you will see that they were negligible errors at best.

please focus your "anger" at Renault instead, 'cause even with the corrected statement, this evidence is about 10x worse than anything that McClaren are alleged to have done. It is ironic that you are venting your anger towards the accusing team instread of the culprits, for if we go back to the Stepney gate scenario, I would assume that LDiM and JT and Ferrari are then all liars in your book for some of the outlandish allegations they made, right?




Hey!! you leave the Ayotollah alone. :p :

[markabilly]

First of all they corrected technical inaccuracies in the press release. And once/if you read them you will see that they were negligible errors at best.

please focus your "anger" at Renault instead, 'cause even with the corrected statement, this evidence is about 10x worse than anything that McClaren are alleged to have done....

Certainly glad to see somebody around here has been drinking their Mclieing kool aid ...opps I meant Maclaran kool aid. :D

but once again, not to worry, MM has got his eye on bernie's profits...err ...business...err I mean...big business...errr.... i mean his eye on the big picture of what is good for MM and Bernie...opps....I meant the revenue of flavio's partnership with bernie...I mean...the big picture of what is good for the revenue...err.... i mean big eyeball on the big picture of the sport of formula one. Sorry for all those typos.

For a second, i thought I was going to have to issue my own press release to correct "technical inaccuracies......that were negligible errors at best" in my own press release ..... i meant post.....

[truefan72]

Hey!! you leave the Ayotollah alone. :p :

I couldn't resist, I tried hard to ignore it, but like Pacino said;
"every time I think I am out, they keep pulling me back in"

[CNR]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/sport/motorsport.html?in_article_id=499990&in_page_id=1954

could this see McLaren thrown out of f1



Formula One's tarnished credibility took another beating last night when McLaren were forced into an embarrassing climbdown for falsifying information.

The latest scandal comes ahead of today's FIA World Motor Sport Council meeting in Monte Carlo, which will decide if Renault are guilty of using McLaren secrets.

McLaren leaked details a fortnight ago, claiming their former engineer Steve Mackereth took 780 technical drawings with him when he joined Renault last year.
But the British team have now admitted there were only 18 drawings and that nine employees, rather than the implied 18, have admitted to seeing the sensitive data.
The development is a further dent to their reputation, which is already seriously damaged by a $100million (£50m) fine for spying on Ferrari earlier this year.
The FIA's critics, meanwhile, will think it all very convenient for them. They are thought to be reluctant to replicate the hefty fine meted out to McLaren, knowing that Renault could walk away from the sport as a result.
It is also noted that Renault team principal Flavio Briatore and F1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone are close friends and fellow owners of QPR football club. Today's hearing will be followed a day later by the final instalment of McLaren's own spying saga, when the WMSC will decide if their insider information from Ferrari has been put towards the design of next year's car.

[wmcot]

First of all they corrected technical inaccuracies in the press release. And once/if you read them you will see that they were negligible errors at best.


But something inside makes me wonder why they only corrected the "errors" at the last moment? Why didn't they issue a correction as soon as the inaccuracies were found? There seems to be a pattern here - like having 780 pages of documentation and only admitting it when it is coming to light...

Something still smells fishy in Woking!

[CNR]

http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=General&PO_ID=41400


McLaren has moved to correct inaccuracies in the leaked spy briefing memo, ahead of the FIA hearing into Renault-gate. Read it here in full.

The FIA has asked us to correct certain factual errors contained in a press briefing given on our behalf by one journalist concerning Renault F1 and we are pleased to do so. The corrections are as follows.
In our briefing, we stated that there were 18 witness statements from Renault employees admitting that they had viewed McLaren confidential information.
To the extent that this implied that 18 different Renault employees admitted viewing McLaren confidential information it was inaccurate. 13 Renault F1 employees provided 18 witness statements and 9 of them have so far admitted they viewed and discussed the confidential technical information belonging to McLaren.
We stated that the confidential information on computer disks was uploaded onto 11 Renault computers.
This is not accurate. Mr Mackereth copied information onto 11 computer disks. The information on these 11 computer disks was uploaded by Renault IT staff in September 2006 onto Renault’s T: drive and then transferred by Mr Mackereth to his personal home directory stored on Renault's network server. A back up copy of the material on Mr Mackereth’s personal directory was made onto an unknown number of Renault’s back up servers/tapes.
Our briefing could have been interpreted as suggesting that the Renault employees who admitted sight of McLaren Confidential Information all viewed it on computer screens.
Only Mr Mackereth and Mr Hardie admit viewing McLaren Confidential Information on Mr Mackereth’s computer. The other seven employees who have admitted seeing McLaren Confidential Information admit seeing it in the form of computer print outs or hard copy documents.
We said that the information on the 11 computer disks taken by Mr Mackereth included 780 individual drawings.
This was an error. The information taken by Mr Mackereth on floppy disks, in hard copy form and by email amounts to 762 pages when printed out. The 11 computer disks included 18 individual technical drawings. Mr Mackereth also admits that he took hard copy drawings of McLaren’s dampers.
We said that the McLaren information amounted to the "entire technical blueprint of the 2006 and 2007 McLaren car".
This requires clarification. The position is that, the McLaren drawings plus the information in a confidential MP4 - 22A Specification document taken by Mr Mackereth constitute a technical definition of the fundamental layout of the 2007 McLaren car and the technical details of its innovative and performance enhancing systems.
We are pleased to assist the FIA in making the above clear in advance of tomorrow's hearing.

[Valve Bounce]

Why don't we just wait a couple of days and see what transpires? All this wild conjecture isn't going to get us anywhere.

[SGWilko]

Why don't we just wait a couple of days and see what transpires? All this wild conjecture isn't going to get us anywhere.

Don't spoil their fun Valve. I quite enjoy their witterings, makes my train journey to work fly by........

[ArrowsFA1]

So the McLiars did lie again 2 weeks ago, and what was reported than on their behalf was not even close to reality.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64285

So what do we have then?

9 Renault employees have "admitted they viewed and discussed the confidential technical information belonging to McLaren."

"The information taken by Mr Mackereth on floppy disks, in hard copy form and by email amounts to 762 pages when printed out. The 11 computer disks included 18 individual technical drawings. Mr Mackereth also admits that he took hard copy drawings of McLaren's dampers."

"the McLaren drawings plus the information in a confidential MP4 - 22A Specification document taken by Mr Mackereth constitute a technical definition of the fundamental layout of the 2007 McLaren car and the technical details of its innovative and performance enhancing systems."

[SGWilko]

http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=General&PO_ID=41400

Oh dear, that does not exactly do Renault any favours, does it? Almost paints McLaren (notice the correct spelling Markabilly ;) ) in a better light, could that have been engineered I wonder? :D

[SGWilko]

I liked this little snippet...



This was an error. The information taken by Mr Mackereth on floppy disks, in hard copy form and by email amounts to 762 pages when printed out.

This has all the elements to make it very hard for the FIA to let Renault off with a slap on the wrist.........

[Valve Bounce]

Maybe they'll just tell Renault to say 3 Hail Mary's, 3 Our Father's, and then sin no more. That's what Father Murphy used to tell us at Boarding School.

[SGWilko]

Maybe they'll just tell Renault to say 3 Hail Mary's, 3 Our Father's, and then sin no more. That's what Father Murphy used to tell us at Boarding School.

And then, in true Father Ted style, they'll be told to 'feck off' ! :D

Disclaimer - no offence is intended, neither is that a personal attack. the word feck was used on prime time TV, so I cannot see anyone being offended. But if you are, soz.

[ioan]

So what do we have then?

9 Renault employees have "admitted they viewed and discussed the confidential technical information belonging to McLaren."

"The information taken by Mr Mackereth on floppy disks, in hard copy form and by email amounts to 762 pages when printed out. The 11 computer disks included 18 individual technical drawings. Mr Mackereth also admits that he took hard copy drawings of McLaren's dampers."

"the McLaren drawings plus the information in a confidential MP4 - 22A Specification document taken by Mr Mackereth constitute a technical definition of the fundamental layout of the 2007 McLaren car and the technical details of its innovative and performance enhancing systems."

Unless there will be emails from drivers and test drivers proving that they used the data Renault will be cleared.

And than they will take legal action against McLaren for defamation:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64290

Not bad!

[ioan]

This was an error. The information taken by Mr Mackereth on floppy disks, in hard copy form and by email amounts to 762 pages when printed out.

But McC&L didn't say what format those pages were!
1x2 inches might be the right one for getting up to 762 pages! :rotflamo:

[MAX_THRUST]

Justice will be served and you can always rely on honesty and integrity from the FIA. Oh I forgot consistency. (yeah right).

Renault should be penalised in a like manner to Ron's team. End of story. It seems to me to be a worse case than what Ron was accused of. If they are trying to black mail the FIA in to going easy on them, then call their bluff.

As for Alonso, he has really messed up. If Renault go, who's gonna have him, Ron's team, doubt it. He'd be number 2 for certain.

And what if the FIA let off Renault??? How can they??? They are clearly in possesion of something they should not have. Time for Mad MAx Mosely to resign.

Money greed and power has brought us to this point, and could end up sending back to the good times again with loyal independent teams. The more m0ney comes in the more corrupt things seem to get.

[MAX_THRUST]

Feck Feck Feck Feck.........DAMN RIGHT THERE AINT NOTHING WRONG WITH IT. Anyone wanna buy a teddy bear called.............now that could be offensive.

[ioan]

Justice will be served and you can always rely on honesty and integrity from the FIA. Oh I forgot consistency. (yeah right).

Renault should be penalised in a like manner to Ron's team. End of story.

I agree with you, but for that to happen there needs to be proof that the data was used. Wasn't it like this that it happened with McLaren? They were cleared first because there was no proof that they used the Ferrari data, and than the emails and sms' came to light and they got punished.

So where is the proof that Renault used the McLaren data?

[MAX_THRUST]

does it matter if emails went around they had stuff they shouldn't.

I stole a 50 inch plasma tv, its ok though I didn't use it........c'mon please.

FECK FECK FECK!!!!!

[MAX_THRUST]

All I'm trying to say is Max and Bernie need to be 100% certain of the next move, Doesn't matter who's side your on. I feel just as bad for Renault as I did the Merc's & Mc team. It's all been going on for years, but because it has been highlighted the muck started to hit the fan. How many other teams are waiting for the next FIA hearing to implicate them???

All I would guess!

[ArrowsFA1]

It's all been going on for years, but because it has been highlighted the muck started to hit the fan. How many other teams are waiting for the next FIA hearing to implicate them???

All I would guess!

As Nigel Roebuck has said in Autosport (http://www.autosport.com/):

As for F1, the fact is that this sort of thing has always gone on - indeed a couple of weeks ago Adrian Newey said the same, adding that there had been far worse examples of it in the past that had gone unpunished - and, in many cases, undetected. Anyone in the paddock, for example, will tell you that one year - no, I'm not saying which - the world championship was won by a blatantly illegal car.

Did someone open Pandora's Box this time? I rather fear they did.

[passmeatissue]

But something inside makes me wonder why they only corrected the "errors" at the last moment? Why didn't they issue a correction as soon as the inaccuracies were found? There seems to be a pattern here - like having 780 pages of documentation and only admitting it when it is coming to light...

Something still smells fishy in Woking!

This is Max's timing, the day before the hearing. It's supposed to be Renault in the dock, but instead it's McLaren, with Flav, almost as good at politics as Max but a bit less sophisticated, threatening to sue.

I can't believe how a team that is so good at racing can be quite so hopeless at politics. They were obviously trying to copy Ferrari's briefing strategy, but without allowing for the crucial difference of the Max factor. Just hope they're doing a better job in the hearing.

[SGWilko]

I agree with you, but for that to happen there needs to be proof that the data was used. Wasn't it like this that it happened with McLaren? They were cleared first because there was no proof that they used the Ferrari data, and than the emails and sms' came to light and they got punished.

So where is the proof that Renault used the McLaren data?

Well, Renault had it loaded onto a shared drive on their computer network. T: drive wasn't it. You don't do that just for the hell of it, now do you?

So what do we have then?

9 Renault employees have "admitted they viewed and discussed the confidential technical information belonging to McLaren."

"The information taken by Mr Mackereth on floppy disks, in hard copy form and by email amounts to 762 pages when printed out. The 11 computer disks included 18 individual technical drawings. Mr Mackereth also admits that he took hard copy drawings of McLaren's dampers."

"the McLaren drawings plus the information in a confidential MP4 - 22A Specification document taken by Mr Mackereth constitute a technical definition of the fundamental layout of the 2007 McLaren car and the technical details of its innovative and performance enhancing systems."

I'm just wondering why you haven't criticised Mclaren for letting Mackereth take the disks and why you haven't pointed the finger of conspiracy Mclaren's way like you did with Ferrari over Stepneygate?

[markabilly]

does it matter if emails went around they had stuff they shouldn't.

I stole a 50 inch plasma tv, its ok though I didn't use it........c'mon please.

FECK FECK FECK!!!!!


Well, Renault had it loaded onto a shared drive on their computer network. T: drive wasn't it. You don't do that just for the hell of it, now do you?


As I said when the Mac stuff first hearing, you can not say well we had it, but did not use it--no way---what nonsense that was back then and it still is, no matter the name of the team

enough that they peeked at it.
Interesting to see how some the posters have changed their views on that point

Besides if two drivers at Mac were openly discussing it, then far more than a rogue employee was involved, and at least Renault is not playing that game of "only one rogue"





Unless there will be emails from drivers and test drivers proving that they used the data Renault will be cleared.

And than they will take legal action against McLaren for defamation:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64290

Not bad!

Legal action? Why? Because the claim was I stole 50 plasma TVs but truth is I will admit to only 9 that I never turned on, so I have been made to look a bigger crook than I really am?

Falvio: "We will be cleared and once the verdict is announced we will consider legal action. Our reputation has been defamed."

Of course he probably knows already that the first part of the quote is probably already in the bag........ :vader:

[passmeatissue]

Unless there will be emails from drivers and test drivers proving that they used the data Renault will be cleared.

And than they will take legal action against McLaren for defamation:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64290

Not bad!

Unless the WMSC are going to say it's quite OK for teams to pass round illegally obtained drawings of other teams' IP secretly among their engineers, then there will be a penalty. That much should be obvious.

We just don't know yet how successfully the Axis of Max's will be able to protect one of their recent recruits from the precedent they set with McLaren.

Flav is more likely to be sued than to sue.

[SGWilko]

I'm just wondering why you haven't criticised Mclaren for letting Mackereth take the disks and why you haven't pointed the finger of conspiracy Mclaren's way like you did with Ferrari over Stepneygate?

Hold it, I thought the McLaren guy jumped ship to Renault, whereas Stepney was passing info out of Ferrari while still an employee.

There is a significant difference.

BUT - I can see your point, just I think the differing factor is that Stepney was still in Ferrari's employ, so there is an aspect that the team as a whole, could be deemed to be responsible for his actions.

[markabilly]

Hold it, I thought the McLaren guy jumped ship to Renault, whereas Stepney was passing info out of Ferrari while still an employee.

There is a significant difference.

.


Good one!!! send it to Max before it is too late

Really sounds like there needs to be a "rule clarification" as to when is it okay to cheat/steal and when it is NOT to cheat/steal

OK--employee hired after one year garden leave and brings stuff then OR
---employee hired brings a computer full of designs that he contributed work product

Not OK--employee trying to get hired gives out secrets while still employed OR
---employee sells secrets to highest bidder w/o garden leave

and so forth

[SGWilko]

Good one!!!

Aw shucks, thanks. ;)

As Nigel Roebuck has said in Autosport[/URL]:

Given his constant pro-Mclaren diatribes this season, his view point is hardly that of a detached observer.

Some might even say it's the viewpoint of a stuck-in-the-past reactionary.

But hey, whatever floats the boat.

[SGWilko]

Given his constant pro-Mclaren diatribes this season, his view point is hardly that of a detached observer.

Some might even say it's the viewpoint of a stuck-in-the-past reactionary.

But hey, whatever floats the boat.

I'd class his articles as a little sanity in a very insane (at the moment) sport.

Ill stick with potato, you can call it potato!!! ;)

Ill stick with potato, you can call it potato!!! ;)

That's nothing less than outright Spudist and you know it!

[SGWilko]

That's nothing less than outright Spudist and you know it!

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

[markabilly]

What this hearing does demonstrate is the difference in interest in the general public as to what is going on---the others had all sorts of updates almost minute by minute, who what when and so forth....and with this one, I can not even find a news flash that anyone showed up today.

Maybe it was already over before it started????

Maybe there was more to what Flavio said, "We will be cleared and once the verdict is announced we will consider legal action..."

Or maybe no one really cares all that much?

[SGWilko]

What this hearing does demonstrate is the difference in interest in the general public as to what is going on---the others had all sorts of updates almost minute by minute, who what when and so forth....and with this one, I can not even find a news flash that anyone showed up today.

Maybe it was already over before it started????

Maybe there was more to what Flavio said, "We will be cleared and once the verdict is announced we will consider legal action..."

Or maybe no one really cares all that much?

Baloney. I think the interested parties and knowledgable fans are waiting with baited breath, but are not holding up much hope.

The FIA knows it screwed up by setting a prescedent, but will no doubt squirm its way out of this one, leavin Renault unharmed.

But this is the turning point I think, that the FIA is a wounded swan now, and will start to wither until the rot is cut out.

[ASCAR24/7/365.5]

thats what, i though, the fia have set a dangerous president...looking at it from an inpartial view, they should have disqualified mclaren completly, but that would have upset mclaren so they just disqualified them from constructors, then they should have disqualifiesd williams and bmw but they couldnt do that cos it would have upset ferrari, now they should disqualify renault, but that would upset renault. the fia have completely mishandled this from the start, they should know that spying and cheeting is rife in f1 and should hav e dealt with this behind the scenes

[SGWilko]

thats what, i thought, the fia have set a dangerous president...

100% agree.


looking at it from an inpartial view, No such thing in F1!! ;)


they should have disqualified mclaren completly, but that would have upset mclaren so they just disqualified them from constructors, They could not, cos Max *ucked that up with his immunity scam! But I bet he creamed his pants dealing the $100m blow though. :D


then they should have disqualifiesd williams and bmw but they couldnt do that cos it would have upset ferrari, It would have upset Ferrari if Kimi lost the WDC as a result. But to disqualify Williams and BMW would be hypocrytical, because the oik's at the FIA *ucked up (for some years now) the ruling on fuel temps and how they are checked. :\


now they should disqualify renault, but that would upset renault. the fia have completely mishandled this from the start, they should know that spying and cheeting is rife in f1 and should hav e dealt with this behind the scenes

Well, certainly a hefty fine and a loss of '07 constructor points is what is required if they want to remain impartial, but as I said, that is not a reality in F1 any more. :down:

[markabilly]

Baloney. I think the interested parties and knowledgable fans are waiting with baited breath, but are not holding up much hope.

The FIA knows it screwed up by setting a prescedent, but will no doubt squirm its way out of this one, leavin Renault unharmed.

But this is the turning point I think, that the FIA is a wounded swan now, and will start to wither until the rot is cut out.

Actually what I am talking about is the general public and news media stuff poping up on the interent--we were treated to almost minute by minute stuff about the other hearings on the day of the hearings, and no where can i find any mention of the hearing about what is really happening today as to where what when and so forth, stuff being leaked or even mentioned. Not even one photo of the arrival of the contestants......

To me that demonstrates something, be it popularity of Mac and ferrari or whatever. By comparison to prior episodes, the news seems very muted

[Osella]

Well, they've been found guilty now, so what does everyone think will be the punishment??

I predict the same as McLaren, exclusion of points from the 2007 constructor's championship, as it doesn't really matter anymore!...

Well, they've been found guilty now, so what does everyone think will be the punishment??

I predict the same as McLaren, exclusion of points from the 2007 constructor's championship, as it doesn't really matter anymore!...

My bet - No punishment, same as Mclaren first time round.

[Osella]

Bingo Tamburello!! Right first time...according to BBC ;)

My bet must come after the inevtiable McLaren appeal...which presumably they will work out if they're allowed to make, before they make it this time! :laugh:

[ASCAR24/7/365.5]

in the words of victor meldrew...I DONT BELIVE IT!......the fia have really done it now!...one week saying cheeting is inexcusable and the next letting renault off! utterly discraseful!

[markabilly]

Has FIA learned nothing? No punishment?
Even if it was $1.00, that would at least be a token

will this now follow the mac thing to hearing number 2???

I thought renault might be serving wine, good french wine, at the hearing, but may be they now have their own brand of kool aid...

Given the bernie conection, I thought it was clear that the punishment would be minimal, certainly not high enough to drive them off but nothing?????

Joke

[Osella]

Well I suggest we all hang fire before castigating the FIA until they reveal the reasons and full hearing transcripts tomorrow...

[jso1985]

Can McLaren appeal?

so the FIA makes a circus again for another month, to finally punish Renault with a fine. when it could have been done before

[Osella]

Does it really matter to McLaren whether they can appeal or not!?!? They probably will anyway! :laugh:

P.S> Fellow Timo Glock fan here too :up:

[F1boat]

Just like the original McLaren punishment. No surprise, not for me.

[jso1985]

surely they will but I still don't see why the FIA enjoys making a circus out of evrything. Could have fine them now and leave the whole issue behind

or does the FIA earns more money with appeals?

[F1boat]

surely they will but I still don't see why the FIA enjoys making a circus out of evrything. Could have fine them now and leave the whole issue behind

or does the FIA earns more money with appeals?

I think that there wouldn't be more appeals unless new evidence is found.

[Osella]

Yes, as in the Brazilian GP (false) appeal;

(The FIA):"LEAVES it to the appellant to pay the costs, in accordance with Article 190 of the International Sporting Code and Article 24 of the Rules of the International Court of Appeal."

[SGWilko]

Dear old Flav

Renault have welcomed the decision of the FIA World Motor Sport Council not to punish them for having McLaren intellectual property in their possession.

Following a meeting in Monaco today, the FIA found Renault to have breached the regulations for having McLaren information but, with no proof they gained any advantage, it was felt inappropriate to punish them.

In a statement issued by the team, Renault boss Flavio Briatore said: "I would like to thank Renault, our title sponsor ING and all our partners for their wholehearted support during this sensitive period.

"I also wish to pay tribute to the team, which has handled the matter with integrity and dignity. We are pleased that we can now focus fully on our preparations for the 2008 championship."

The FIA's decision not to punish the team, despite them being found guilty of having the illegal information in their possession, mirrors the McLaren case from earlier this year.

At the original July hearing into the Mike Coughlan/Nigel Stepney affair, McLaren were found guilty of having Ferrari information in their possession but were not punished because there was no evidence the team had gained any performance benefit from the details.

The decision not to punish the team left Briatore baffled at the time.

Speaking to Gazzetta dello Sport in July, he said: "I don't understand what happened, because to begin with you would only gather the World Council if you had proof. Otherwise, if you don't have proof, you avoid such a meeting.

"So I don't understand what happened: if the FIA admits to have established possession of Ferrari material by McLaren, then why is there no retribution? This verdict reminds me of Pontius Pilate."

Oh dear, now if that is not the perfect example of a hypocryte, then I'll eat my (chocolate) hat......

[Big Ben]

I don`t even know why you bother reading what FB has to say. He's nothing more than a leech.

[markabilly]

Dear old Flav

Renault have welcomed the decision of the FIA World Motor Sport Council not to punish them for having McLaren intellectual property in their possession.

Following a meeting in Monaco today, the FIA found Renault to have breached the regulations for having McLaren information but, with no proof they gained any advantage, it was felt inappropriate to punish them.

In a statement issued by the team, Renault boss Flavio Briatore said: "I would like to thank Renault, our title sponsor ING and all our partners for their wholehearted support during this sensitive period.

"I also wish to pay tribute to the team, which has handled the matter with integrity and dignity. We are pleased that we can now focus fully on our preparations for the 2008 championship."

The FIA's decision not to punish the team, despite them being found guilty of having the illegal information in their possession, mirrors the McLaren case from earlier this year.

At the original July hearing into the Mike Coughlan/Nigel Stepney affair, McLaren were found guilty of having Ferrari information in their possession but were not punished because there was no evidence the team had gained any performance benefit from the details.

The decision not to punish the team left Briatore baffled at the time.

Speaking to Gazzetta dello Sport in July, he said: "I don't understand what happened, because to begin with you would only gather the World Council if you had proof. Otherwise, if you don't have proof, you avoid such a meeting.

"So I don't understand what happened: if the FIA admits to have established possession of Ferrari material by McLaren, then why is there no retribution? This verdict reminds me of Pontius Pilate."

Oh dear, now if that is not the perfect example of a hypocryte, then I'll eat my (chocolate) hat......
No, The man obviously did not understand back then, but he does now, so chocalate hats off to his becoming more educated... He obviously now realizes the value of washing his hands.........and no, bernie becoming his partner after the renault pot started heating up, had nothing to do with it......... :vader:

[truefan72]

unbeleivable,...WTF..unbeleivable

not a single dollar$

what a farce

how in the world can they justify the $100 million verdict on McClaren
with evidence that mechanics and engineers discussed it, had it in their computers ( the overwhelming evidence that got McClaren their $100M fine)
just nothing???????????????????????????????????

I'm trying harder to swallow down the vomit

I have absolutely no faith what so ever in the FIA, I refuse to acknowledge their credibility in any way. Basically they just stole the WCC and $100 million from McClaren.

How can this be done ?
completely incredioulus?

Whatever indifference I had towards RD before, or the fact that I wasn't a huge McClaren fan before, from here on out I'm supporting them.

This kind of mockery of any sense of impartiality will be the straw that broke the camels back for this FIA administration and the fool MM.

[AndyRAC]

Only just heard this on the BBC news, and I've got to say I'm speechless!!! It's almost unbelievable, it just makes me think there's a personal vendetta against McLaren. Didn't Renault engineers/Senior Personnel admit they'd seen the documents/information? What is going on with this sport, surely in both cases, if tried in a Court of Law they'd be thrown out. Either both teams are guilty and are fined, or they sre both let off. How can one be fined $100million, and another is let off Scot free?? Eh,....???? I'm sorry, but the F1A have shown themselves to be completely,....I can't think of adequate words,....

[gshevlin]

...a collection of corrupt, discriminatory, vindictive jerks?

[Valve Bounce]

I don`t even know why you bother reading what FB has to say. He's nothing more than a leech.


fousto is right - the guy is in the "FAMILY" :eek:
Nobody was going to punish him.

[ioan]

Nice to see the McFans being consternated by the fact that renault were not punished because there is no proof that they used the Mc.. data and gained an advantage.
Yet the very same people were the ones who were saying, a few months ago, that McLaren shouldn't be punished unless there was proof they gained an unfair advantage! :rolleyes:

Talk about hypocrisy! :p :
You people are like the ones you support, a bunch of hypocrites!

[ioan]

I think that there wouldn't be more appeals unless new evidence is found.

Exactly.
:eek: Consistency from the FIA! :up:
Exactly what most people around here were asking for a while! :D
Now there's consistency, still people aren't happy! :)

[ioan]

Only just heard this on the BBC news, and I've got to say I'm speechless!!! It's almost unbelievable, it just makes me think there's a personal vendetta against McLaren. Didn't Renault engineers/Senior Personnel admit they'd seen the documents/information? What is going on with this sport, surely in both cases, if tried in a Court of Law they'd be thrown out. Either both teams are guilty and are fined, or they sre both let off. How can one be fined $100million, and another is let off Scot free?? Eh,....???? I'm sorry, but the F1A have shown themselves to be completely,....I can't think of adequate words,....

You obviously didn't follow close enough both cases.
Up to this point both cases are following the exactly same path with exactly the same punishments.
So, why are you "spechless", because the FIA's new found consistency?

[passmeatissue]

fousto is right - the guy is in the "FAMILY" :eek:
Nobody was going to punish him.

Yes, after 2006, Flav certainly woke up and smelled the coffee, now totally on-Axis. Max has been so in-our-face about this, though, not even a token punishment. Tomorrow we'll see another Max masterclass in argument with the explanation, I'm part repelled, part fascinated to see how he sets it out.

And I'm nervous about tomorrow's McLaren hearing, Max doesn't seem to recognise normal boundaries these days.

[markabilly]

well there is not much real fussing going on, like I said before, not too many concerned one way or the other, but does seem the Macheat supporters sure have changed their tune on the effect of mere possession, nevertheless, not one of you expected much different?

Did you?

Maybe some meaningless symbolic fine perhaps, but nothing beyond that, right ?????

But as usual regarding the whole thing well..........with the FIA, I still can not match them, and all those folks who say conspiracy, what conspiracy, you paranoid nut case, let us argue the technical merits of whatever ruling comes out....I say the circus is still here :imubash: :bigcry: :arrows: :roll: enjoy the show...and enjoy arguing over whatever nonsense is issued tommorrow

[truefan72]

Nice to see the McFans being consternated by the fact that renault were not punished because there is no proof that they used the Mc.. data and gained an advantage.
Yet the very same people were the ones who were saying, a few months ago, that McLaren shouldn't be punished unless there was proof they gained an unfair advantage! :rolleyes:

Talk about hypocrisy! :p :
You people are like the ones you support, a bunch of hypocrites!

the only hypocracy is coming from the FIA

plese do tell me then what McClaren were guilty of that deserved the fine and how the Renault situation is different.

1. either they both deserve the $100 million or both deserve no penalty.
3. if Mcclaren were not fined for the IP info present,and discussing it with the staff AS RENAULT DID, then what exactly IYO where they fined for?
2. Will the renault 2008 be subject to the same scrutiny as the McClaren

if you cannot see the falacy in the the way FIA have adjudicated this situation, then there really isn't much worth in discussing rationalities.
just for once in this forum, take a step back from the Ferrari haze, and try and understand how this situation, in the long run does more damage than good to the FIA and Formula 1.

you cannot have the top racing series in the world in the hands of vindictive and partisan folks, who at the very best are incomeptent to rule a pre-school squabble and at the moment are not capable od administering the job with any type accumen.

I don't particulary care to hear the convuluted and obviosly edited statements that they will release tomorrow. The damage has been done and that's that.

[truefan72]

You obviously didn't follow close enough both cases.
Up to this point both cases are following the exactly same path with exactly the same punishments.
So, why are you "spechless", because the FIA's new found consistency?


Well then according to you,

they should have held off on the fact that they discussed the IP information and had made 9 copies on disk ( instead of 11 big deal)

and that at least 4 people were discussing the info,

until 3 weeks from now,

and then drag everyone back into court,

provide immunity to the dissatisfied employee who threatens the team with blackmail,

then wait for flav to go to the FIA himself and correct his earlier WRONG statment that it wasn't a big issue and only a little indiscretion

Then have them fined $100 million

I see, that's the way to do it,

unlike the FIA knowing all the facts NOW and understanding that their breach of article 151c included more than just possesion of IP.

Ok, I get it now LOL

[Osella]

The point is, again, that there is minor difference in the two situations, likewise there is no difference in the punishments!!

Please try and remember McLaren were not fined or docked anything after being found guilty; they were only fined and excluded from the FIA Constructors F1 World Championship after a second hearing where new evidence was presented clearly demonstrating that McLaren's racetrack personnel, as well as their design team had demonstrated a clear intent to use the Ferrari data.

At the same point in the McLaren/Ferrari hearing, the results and lack of punishment were exactly the same...now try saying that's not consistent...

[ioan]

The point is, again, that there is minor difference in the two situations, likewise there is no difference in the punishments!!

Please try and remember McLaren were not fined or docked anything after being found guilty; they were only fined and excluded from the FIA Constructors F1 World Championship after a second hearing where new evidence was presented clearly demonstrating that McLaren's racetrack personnel, as well as their design team had demonstrated a clear intent to use the Ferrari data.

At the same point in the McLaren/Ferrari hearing, the results and lack of punishment were exactly the same...now try saying that's not consistent...

:up:

Thanks for explaining it so well! :)

[PSfan]

Ok, Ferrari did appeal the first MacLeran Decision, but the appeal hearing was pre-empted due to FIA finding new evidence, SO we don't know what would have come from the appeal.

Now will so much hanging over MAcLeran, anybody think they would be dumb enough to appeal without more evidence?

[truefan72]

they were trying to inquire about the differences and wanted to see if it had any advantage to their system BUT NEVER DID DO ANYTHING

Renault discusssed the IP info and felt strongly enough to load it on their computers and T- drive which would indicate anaylsis ready to be used and studied. something MCclaren did not do.

Unless you think they were sharing the information as gifts to one another oblvious to the data and its corealation to their own.

You,and I and everybody knows that what Renault did was far worse. Just trying to rationlize MM and the FIA verdict in order to feel better doesn't change the facts. and most arguments that try to draw disitnctions between the two only aid in proving the latter point.

Just accept that the fia got the verdict that they wanted to , and will now take an entire day to re-interprate the evidence to suit their argument.

If they were this crystal clear about the verdict, then the documentation should have been release today, at least in raw form, for transparency sake
but we all know that aint' happening

[ioan]

Renault discusssed the IP info and felt strongly enough to load it on their computers and T- drive which would indicate anaylsis ready to be used and studied.

I think that is not true to the facts.

[ioan]

Ok, Ferrari did appeal the first MacLeran Decision, but the appeal hearing was pre-empted due to FIA finding new evidence, SO we don't know what would have come from the appeal.

Now will so much hanging over MAcLeran, anybody think they would be dumb enough to appeal without more evidence?

I'm wondering how much dumber McLaren could get. For now they largely surpassed any expectations in that domain! So, who knows :?:

[markabilly]

Ok, Ferrari did appeal the first MacLeran Decision, but the appeal hearing was pre-empted due to FIA finding new evidence, SO we don't know what would have come from the appeal.

Now will so much hanging over MAcLeran, anybody think they would be dumb enough to appeal without more evidence?
Actually being in possession and revewing it, then having the opportunity to use it, if any were found to be worthwhile for them, is all the benefit necessary for a heavy fine.

It was true for Mac at the first hearing and at the first hearing that is what should have happenned. Of course many posters did not agree, blindly refusing to recognize the cold hard logic of law, and accessory to theft, and then wondered off on meaningless points about bending floors and should ferrari be punished because a thief stole from ferrari and gave it to a willing acceptor of the stolen property.

It should have happenned at the first hearing for Renault as well.

Two wrongs do not make a right. But it is consistent.

[PSfan]

they were trying to inquire about the differences and wanted to see if it had any advantage to their system BUT NEVER DID DO ANYTHING

I'm gonna assume that you are refering to the tire gasses I had initially brought up in my previous post but hastly changed as I felt it was hard handed and for the most part the main opinion I was conveying was already expressed Osella.

Speedtv had a long winded article on the tire gasses, and and why McLeran couldn't recreate them. Assuming McLeran where able to create the same gasses Ferrari use in their tires, your saying that whether or not their was an advantage to using those gasses MacLeran where not going to use them? they just wanted to see the difference?!?! Somehow I doubt that.



Renault discusssed the IP info and felt strongly enough to load it on their computers and T- drive which would indicate anaylsis ready to be used and studied. something MCclaren did not do.

As stolen from speedtv:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Our briefing could have been interpreted as suggesting that the Renault employees who admitted sight of McLaren confidential information all viewed it on computer screens. Only Mr. Mackereth and Mr. Hardie admit viewing McLaren confidential information on Mr. Mackereth’s computer. The other seven employees who have admitted seeing McLaren confidential information admit seeing it in the form of computer print outs or hard copy documents.

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/41950/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

So ONE other Renault engineer actually saw the MacLeran designs on the computer, sure looks like they where going to analyse, use and study it!!!


Unless you think they were sharing the information as gifts to one another oblvious to the data and its corealation to their own.

I'm inclined to believe that the egineers where sharing the McLeran data as an inside joke sort of thing "See what MAcleran are using for mass dampers? did they get high school students to design those?!? hahaha"

Fact is, the Renault spying hearing wasn't able to determine that Renault attempted to use any of the McLeran documents. Maybe the McLeran fans can dig through renault garbage, emails and such and try to find evidence to the contrary


You,and I and everybody knows that what Renault did was far worse. Just trying to rationlize MM and the FIA verdict in order to feel better doesn't change the facts. and most arguments that try to draw disitnctions between the two only aid in proving the latter point.

No, You think what Renault did was worse. Forget the stepneygate scandal, just MacLeran misrepresenting the facts regarding the Renault case (and having to clarify their position prior to the hearing) is a far worse thing then what Renault have done.

And it gets better:

as taken from Grandprix:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is little doubt that for McLaren the Renault case was a test to see what the FIA would do and it will be interesting to see what happens now. McLaren strategy seems to be to avoid direct conflict with the federation as this will not help the team do what it exists to do - winning races. But that does not mean that the team will take the decision without doing anything. It is quite possible that there will be other cases put before the FIA because the federation is bound to investigate all such allegations and may then be perceived to be digging itself into a deeper hole with each decision that is not on a par with the punishment handed down to McLaren. One way or another, the bitterness that exists is not going to go away just because a decision has been made.
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19915.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just a test? possibility of more allegations??? if McLeran only purpose in F1 now is to expose the FIA's dificiencies, then maybe the FIA should kick em out now... of course I'm starting to think thats what I want for Christmas though I doubt Santa can wrap that one up for me


Just accept that the fia got the verdict that they wanted to , and will now take an entire day to re-interprate the evidence to suit their argument.

If they were this crystal clear about the verdict, then the documentation should have been release today, at least in raw form, for transparency sake
but we all know that aint' happening

What difference does it make when the full explanation comes out? McLeran where at the hearing, I doubt the FIA will be able to "make sh*t up" be patient