The 2008 ECU saga

[ioan]

I just thought it will be nice to diversify even more our choice of controversial threads.

So here we go, another thread about something that might provide a scandal sometimes next season: the new standard ECU.

New to some of the teams, not to all of them, given that it's produced by one of the McLaren companies!

Here, Renault engineer Bob Bell's take on it:



Is it the biggest technical change you will have to cope with in 2008?
BB: Without a shadow of doubt!

Will teams, which used the system in 2007, have an advantage?
BB: It's obvious!


http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=33395

So why did the FIA chose the company of one of the teams that compete in F1 to produce the standard ECU system? Or even better, why was McLaren at all allowed to take part in the bid for the creation of said ECU?

How can this be fair in competition mainly based on technology?

Keep the discussion civilized.

[BDunnell]

I hadn't read about the source of the ECU before. That strikes me as a(nother) significant conflict of interests.

But one question, ioan, in the interests of the sort of fair play on the forum that we all want to see in F1 — would you be concerned in the same way if the ECU was produced by a Fiat group company? I hope so.

[ArrowsFA1]

So why did the FIA chose the company of one of the teams that compete in F1 to produce the standard ECU system? Or even better, why was McLaren at all allowed to take part in the bid for the creation of said ECU?
That is a question for the FIA, although it was not the McLaren F1 team who won the bid. McLaren Electronic Systems (http://www.mclarenelectronics.com/) are a part of the McLaren Group (http://www.mclaren.com/partners/group.php) of companies. Of course, that does mean MES comes under the same 'umbrella' as the F1 team.

[markabilly]

I just thought it will be nice to diversify even more our choice of controversial threads.

So here we go, another thread about something that might provide a scandal sometimes next season: the new standard ECU.

New to some of the teams, not to all of them, given that it's produced by one of the McLaren companies!

Here, Renault engineer Bob Bell's take on it:



http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=33395

So why did the FIA chose the company of one of the teams that compete in F1 to produce the standard ECU system? Or even better, why was McLaren at all allowed to take part in the bid for the creation of said ECU?

How can this be fair in competition mainly based on technology?

Keep the discussion civilized.

I think this may have been discussed before in this forum...but it will be most interesting to see which teams have no problems....and which teams just "can not get it right"

To be really fair someone very independant is going to have to manage this system to avoid secret mapping...

and if it were designed for a certain engine, I do not see how it would work well for another team, as certainly timing, fuel injection and so forth would be different for different engines to maximize performance of the particular engine....as discussed in the article between Mac engineers and renault....

[ioan]

I hadn't read about the source of the ECU before. That strikes me as a(nother) significant conflict of interests.

But one question, ioan, in the interests of the sort of fair play on the forum that we all want to see in F1 — would you be concerned in the same way if the ECU was produced by a Fiat group company? I hope so.

Yes I would.

You know, as the flag shows, that I come from an ex communist country, a country which is rightly seen as one of those with the most corrupted systems in EU. I left the country years ago and every time I go back there I feel that corruption first hand.
Corruption is what I hate and despise most, be it in politics, administration or sports.

[BDunnell]

Yes I would.

You know, as the flag shows, that I come from an ex communist country, a country which is rightly seen as one of those with the most corrupted systems in EU. I left the country years ago and every time I go back there I feel that corruption first hand.
Corruption is what I hate and despise most, be it in politics, administration or sports.

:up:

[Bagwan]

Ioan , it might be a moot point , as McLaren may yet be disqualified from next year's championship .
Then , they would be an independent manufacturer .

And , if they are out , Renault will be the only team with the floppies to make it work .

[passmeatissue]

Roos Brawn said in July 2006 when it was decided...

“I think the fact is that like the Bridgestone tires (http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/29216/#), whoever [used MES before] will have some experience with that system,” said Brawn. “If it had been the Marelli system we would have had the experience with that. It’s a McLaren a system, they’ll have experience with the McLaren system. That’s unavoidable.

“I think it’s still a preferential system than trying to introduce someone with no experience of F1, so whoever was going to get contract, somebody would have some experience of. But I don’t think it’s a competitive problem because the [FIA] is quite clear on the requirements, from what I understand.”

(http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/29216/)

[dime3]

Oh no doubt if Mclaren start winning in 08 Ferrari will have them banned over having prior knowledge of the ECU or something :rolleyes:

[passmeatissue]

Here is another quote..

"boss Flavio Briatore is openly unhappy about working with in 2008-2010 and is believed to be exploring legal options.

"How am I to trust a company that is at the centre of a spying scandal?" he is quoted as saying." :p

http://formula-1.updatesport.com/news/article/1187168090/formula_one/F1tech.talk/Standard-ECU-raises-problems/view.html)

[ioan]

Ioan , it might be a moot point , as McLaren may yet be disqualified from next year's championship.

It won't happen.
Not with todays F1 politics.

[ioan]

Here is another quote..

"boss Flavio Briatore is openly unhappy about working with in 2008-2010 and is believed to be exploring legal options.

"How am I to trust a company that is at the centre of a spying scandal?" he is quoted as saying." :p

http://formula-1.updatesport.com/news/article/1187168090/formula_one/F1tech.talk/Standard-ECU-raises-problems/view.html)

This part is however the best one:


A spokesman for McLaren said: "MES acts independently of the (F1) team"

And they develop their systems based on what? :rolleyes:

[BDunnell]

There is a problem here which is common to many fields of business and indeed politics, because such conflicts of interest are becoming more and more common as companies become ever larger. It may very well be that the MES system is the best available, and there is absolutely no reason to suspect that the tender process was anything other than above board. Ross Brawn, someone I've always respected as one of the (outwardly — I have no more knowledge than that) more reasonable figures in the F1 paddock, clearly had no objections to it according to the quote posted earlier, which I think is telling. Yet such situations always look rather shabby, and I believe they are best avoided.

One thing I won't do, though, is suggest that this is part of any conspiracy or come to the conclusion next year that, if McLaren are top of the pile, the fact that the ECUs are provided by a company in the same group as the F1 team is responsible. That would be taking it too far.

[wmcot]

One thing I won't do, though, is suggest that this is part of any conspiracy or come to the conclusion next year that, if McLaren are top of the pile, the fact that the ECUs are provided by a company in the same group as the F1 team is responsible. That would be taking it too far.

It will look very suspicious if McLaren are dominant and engineers from other teams are complaining about getting the ECU to work properly with their engine! On the other hand, if it is a well-designed unit, it should be flexible enough to adapt to all systems. Time will tell!

[ioan]

It may very well be that the MES system is the best available...

You obviously don't know that Microsoft is involved in it's conception! :D ;)

[ioan]

It will look very suspicious if McLaren are dominant and engineers from other teams are complaining about getting the ECU to work properly with their engine! On the other hand, if it is a well-designed unit, it should be flexible enough to adapt to all systems. Time will tell!

All we know for the moment is that it isn't very well designed, not flexible and not very trusty either, but its standard.
There were reports that some bigger team couldn't even get the engine started using this standard McLaren ECU. :D

[BDunnell]

On the other hand, if it is a well-designed unit, it should be flexible enough to adapt to all systems.

Indeed it should. This won't prevent accusations at the slightest alleged failing, though, and I say that even though I still feel that these possible conflicts of interests should be avoided in all fields if at all possible.

[BDunnell]

You obviously don't know that Microsoft is involved in it's conception! :D ;)

I'm writing this from a Mac, so I don't know about that! ;)

[passmeatissue]

All we know for the moment is that it isn't very well designed, not flexible and not very trusty either, but its standard.
There were reports that some bigger team couldn't even get the engine started using this standard McLaren ECU. :D

We don't know that at all. It's a lot of work to change from a Marelli system, because the ecu is so fundamental. They are complaining on the one hand that it is a complex change, but on the other that the processor is simpler. It's a change, extra work, and so obviously not everyone likes it.

It's a control part, not supposed to be flexible, that is the whole point.

And since 10 teams could start their engines... :dozey:

[ioan]

We don't know that at all. It's a lot of work to change from a Marelli system, because the ecu is so fundamental. They are complaining on the one hand that it is a complex change, but on the other that the processor is simpler. It's a change, extra work, and so obviously not everyone likes it.

It's a control part, not supposed to be flexible, that is the whole point.

And since 10 teams could start their engines... :dozey:

OK Max, we've got it! :p :

[BDunnell]

It is, to be honest (leaving the conflict of interests aside), an entirely reasonable point.

[Hawkmoon]

How many teams currently use the MES unit? If McLaren are the only ones, wouldn't it have made more sense to go with the Marelli unit as Magneti Marelli already supply several teams and no questions of conflicting interests could be raised?

[BDunnell]

How many teams currently use the MES unit? If McLaren are the only ones, wouldn't it have made more sense to go with the Marelli unit as Magneti Marelli already supply several teams and no questions of conflicting interests could be raised?

They could be raised. This is the reason Ross Brawn referred to the company in his comments quoted earlier. Magneti Marelli is a long-time sponsor of Ferrari and other Fiat group motorsport efforts.

[ioan]

Why is that only McLaren-Microsoft and Magneti Marelli participated to the tender?
After all they will get money for providing that piece of standardized electronics, so why only them?

Are they the only suppliers of F1 electronics (Bosch, TAG spring to mind and there are certainly others) ?
If yes than the one supplying more teams should have got the deal, we would have got several teams on equal footing that way, though it wouldn't have been completely fair either.

I seem to remember that for tire supply there was only Michelin and Bridgestone.

It's rather bizarre that no other tire manufacturer wanted to get the F1 contract either.

[BDunnell]

Why is that only McLaren-Microsoft and Magneti Marelli participated to the tender?

I haven't seen anything to suggest that they were the only companies involved; nor indeed, anything that states that Magneti Marelli participated in the tender. To me, Ross Brawn's comment was couched in more general terms.

[Hawkmoon]

They could be raised. This is the reason Ross Brawn referred to the company in his comments quoted earlier. Magneti Marelli is a long-time sponsor of Ferrari and other Fiat group motorsport efforts.

You'll also find the Magneti Marelli logos on numerous other teams cars both today and down through the years. So yes, they are a Ferrari supplier, but they also supply other teams and have done for a long time.

How many teams other than McLaren does MES supply? I have no idea, which is why I'm asking. If it's only McLaren then the FIA probably shouldn't have awarded them the contract. If MES supply multiple teams then there should be no problems.

As far as I can recall, Magneti Marelli and MES weren't the only suppliers who tendered, though I'd have to check the old archives to find the others.

[Valve Bounce]

I think there used to be a thread on this subject, and many of us have voiced their scepticism/disproval on the basis of conflict of interest.

I remember posting there could be a secret button that "Certain" people could press to immobilise certain opposition cars going past. :eek"

[ArrowsFA1]

How many teams other than McLaren does MES supply? I have no idea, which is why I'm asking. If it's only McLaren then the FIA probably shouldn't have awarded them the contract. If MES supply multiple teams then there should be no problems.
According to the MES website:

McLaren Electronic Systems make electronic control systems for motorsport. We have been supplying control and data acquisition systems to the motorsport industry for over 15 years, selling to teams and engine makers in Formula One, World Rally Car, IRL, MotoGP, NASCAR, Le Mans and other professional motorsport categories.

[Hawkmoon]

If they already supply teams other than McLaren then I don't see what the problem is. Thanks Arrows.

[passmeatissue]

I think there used to be a thread on this subject, and many of us have voiced their scepticism/disproval on the basis of conflict of interest.

I remember posting there could be a secret button that "Certain" people could press to immobilise certain opposition cars going past. :eek"

Yes, endless scope for conspiracy programming theory, I am really looking forward to the ferraristi posts when they lose. They'll have the ECU and "stolen ferrari IP" to blame :D .

In reality I think Brawn's assessment that the MES contract balances the Bridgestone advantage that Ferrari enjoyed in 2007 is the right one. If Ferrari had had both Bridgestone and Marelli, that would have been a bit too brazen. And in 2006 when it was decided, Max was probably a bit less mad than he is today.

[ioan]

With "teams and engine makers in Formula One" they mean McLaren, Prodrive and Mercedes or also some teams independent from McLaren?

I'll do a list and try to figure it out:

Ferrari - Magneti Marelli
McLaren - MES
BMW - all I've found is "The entire power train – engine, transmission and electronics – was developed and built in Munich", so it's not MES
Renault - Magneti Marelli
Toyota - Magneti Marelli
Honda - didn't find anything about it (maybe they don't have any ECU, that would explain their poor form), likely to be some Honda system
Red Bull - Magneti Marelli (same as Renault for the obvious reasons)
Williams - Magneti Marelli (same as Toyota for the obvious reasons)
STR - Magneti Marelli (same as Ferrari for the obvious reasons)
SuperAguriF1 - same as Honda
Spyker- Magneti Marelli (same as Ferrari for the obvious reasons)

It's hard to find those F1 teams other than McLaren that are using the MES ECU.

Anyway the choice should have been a company that was not involved in F1 at the moment or in the worst case company that was involved with more than only 1 team.

[ArrowsFA1]

With "teams and engine makers in Formula One" they mean McLaren, Prodrive and Mercedes or also some teams independent from McLaren?
Why not email them and see if you can find out ;)

[ioan]

Why not email them and see if you can find out ;)

Well I did my own research on it and found that for now the F1 teams are only 1 team, McLaren.
It was faster than expecting an carefully crafted answer which will take their marketing team an hour to write after they manage to count the F1 team(s) that they were supplying up to the 2007 season.

I bet that what's on their site is already referring to next year when they'll supply all the F1 teams. Their marketing department must have asked for an upgrade of that line as soon as the Brazilian GP was over! ;)

[passmeatissue]

With "teams and engine makers in Formula One" they mean McLaren, Prodrive and Mercedes or also some teams independent from McLaren?

I'll do a list and try to figure it out:

Ferrari - Magneti Marelli
McLaren - MES
BMW - all I've found is "The entire power train – engine, transmission and electronics – was developed and built in Munich", so it's not MES
Renault - Magneti Marelli
Toyota - Magneti Marelli
Honda - didn't find anything about it (maybe they don't have any ECU, that would explain their poor form), likely to be some Honda system
Red Bull - Magneti Marelli (same as Renault for the obvious reasons)
Williams - Magneti Marelli (same as Toyota for the obvious reasons)
STR - Magneti Marelli (same as Ferrari for the obvious reasons)
SuperAguriF1 - same as Honda
Spyker- Magneti Marelli (same as Ferrari for the obvious reasons)

It's hard to find those F1 teams other than McLaren that are using the MES ECU.

Anyway the choice should have been a company that was not involved in F1 at the moment or in the worst case company that was involved with more than only 1 team.

I don't know, Ferrari might still lose with that arrangement. Surely it would be better to let Ferrari keep their existing Marelli setup, and have the others on the MES control one.

[ioan]

I don't know, Ferrari might still lose with that arrangement. Surely it would be better to let Ferrari keep their existing Marelli setup, and have the others on the MES control one.

:?:

The best solution would have been to take up Bosch or TAG.

[BDunnell]

:?:

The best solution would have been to take up Bosch or TAG.

I'm slightly playing devil's advocate here, for reasons stated above, but what if MES provides the best system around?

[ArrowsFA1]

It's hard to find those F1 teams other than McLaren that are using the MES ECU.
Especially when you don't want to find them :p

More seriously, we have to assume that these are the kind of questions that the FIA looked at when they invited bids for the contract to supply the ECU. That whole process began in February 2006 (report (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/49695)) and it was announced that "Microsoft MES" had won the contract (report (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/55980)) in December last year.

In that last report the MD of MES said:

"We have been involved in Formula One and other forms of professional motorsport for 15 years and already work with all the Formula One teams."

[ioan]

I'm slightly playing devil's advocate here, for reasons stated above, but what if MES provides the best system around?

Recent reports suggested that the teams weren't positively impressed with this "best" system! ;)

[ioan]

Especially when you don't want to find them :p

I actually lost 5 minutes of my life making that list, still McLaren were the only team using a McLaren system in the 2007 cars!


Anyway, what's done is done and the FIA were not willing to discuss this choice with the teams.
Let's just hope that the next season won't feed this thread! :D

[ArrowsFA1]

Recent reports suggested that the teams weren't positively impressed with this "best" system! ;)
You're right, there were concerns (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61758) back in August.

[TMorel]

Ioan - why are you worried. The MES unit is probably based on stolen design plans so it probably is a close match to the Ferrari unit anyway

[ioan]

Ioan - why are you worried.

What I'm worried is a lack of trying from the FIA's part to make this whole sporting business a bit less controversial.

You can't award the deal for a standard ECU to a McLaren company when there are 100% independent company that could do it.
WTH, can't they see the conflict of interests?

[passmeatissue]

What I'm worried is a lack of trying from the FIA's part to make this whole sporting business a bit less controversial.

You can't award the deal for a standard ECU to a McLaren company when there are 100% independent company that could do it.
WTH, can't they see the conflict of interests?

Well obviously, but Brawn addressed this. He only mentioned Marelli and MES, or companies that would be new to F1. He thought it would be worse to try a new supplier.

[ArrowsFA1]

What I'm worried is a lack of trying from the FIA's part to make this whole sporting business a bit less controversial.
But ioan, it is you making the issue out to be controversial. Have there been complaints from other teams regarding the conflict of interest angle? Yes, there have been problems (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61758) with the ECU itself, but that's not the same thing.

[ioan]

But ioan, it is you making the issue out to be controversial. Have there been complaints from other teams regarding the conflict of interest angle? Yes, there have been problems (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61758) with the ECU itself, but that's not the same thing.

So according to you there is no conflict of interest in this case?
As for the complaining part, just wait and see.

[ArrowsFA1]

So according to you there is no conflict of interest in this case?
I can certainly understand why you think there might be, but there is nothing to suggest that there is.

[wedge]

:?:

The best solution would have been to take up Bosch or TAG.

TAG is now MES! Has been for a number of years!

[ioan]

TAG is now MES! Has been for a number of years!

Oups, my bad.

[wedge]

Oups, my bad.

:D :D :D

Shame on you Ioan! You should know by now that Ron Dennis is one heck of a businessman.

Remember the McLaren-TAG-Porsches? McLaren have been in partnership since, in the same way Tag-Heur and Hugo Boss have partnered McLaren for a good number of years!

[TMorel]

Actually I do think the FIA were asking for trouble with either option.

* Pick MES and they are accused of favouritism towards Ron
* Pick Magneti Marelli and they are accused of victimising McLaren again (as Ioan pointed out McL would virtually be the only team affected)

Sometimes I think the FIA deliberately make life difficult for themselves

[ioan]

:D :D :D

Shame on you Ioan! You should know by now that Ron Dennis is one heck of a businessman.

Remember the McLaren-TAG-Porsches? McLaren have been in partnership since, in the same way Tag-Heur and Hugo Boss have partnered McLaren for a good number of years!

Yeah but I also remember the 911 GT1 TAG Porsche that was built to beat the McLarensF1 GTs at LeMans in 96, 97 and 98.
How should I know that McLaren decided to buy TAg after that? :(

[ArrowsFA1]

Yeah but I also remember the 911 GT1 TAG Porsche that was built to beat the McLarensF1 GTs at LeMans in 96, 97 and 98.
How should I know that McLaren decided to buy TAg after that? :(
And then there's the fact that TAG funded the Porsche engines that McLaren raced between 1983-87 winning 5 titles in the process :p

[ioan]

And then there's the fact that TAG funded the Porsche engines that McLaren raced between 1983-87 winning 5 titles in the process :p

Yeah but that was 9 years before 96, 97, 98 when TAG Porsches were beating the BMW powered McLaren GTs!

Anyway, back to the standard ECUs. :D

[aryan]

To put things into perspective, McLaren was the only team to object to the standard ECU rule for 2008. However after being defeated in that battle, they decided "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em ". And so MES entered the tender process.

FIA had two options:

1) Ban all current F1 ECU suppliers from the tender.
2) Allow all bids

FIA went with the second option, and MES won the tende. Personaly I would have gone for the first option (I would have done the same with standard tyre as well) so as not to give any team an unfair disadvantage. The problem of course is that then, the ECU would have been manufactured by someone with absolutely no ECU F1 experience. Perhaps not a very good scenario.