The "Cold Fuel" saga continued [Part 1]

[ioan]

The hearing of the McLaren appeal concerning the use of allegedly too "cold fuel" by Williams and BMW will finally take place tomorrow in London.

And, again, the first to air his views and thus influence the outcome is Bernie who''s opinion is that they shouldn't change the results of the last race!

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=33393

PS: For the moderators: I thought it's time to open a thread about this imminent matter, hope you agree! ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

And, again, the first to air his views and thus influence the outcome is Bernie who''s opinion is that they shouldn't change the results of the last race!
You'll probably be happy about what he's said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63923) though:

"I don't think that the Formula One fans would like a championship to be won because the temperature of the fuel, which can't be measured anyway, is possibly 5C out. If anybody thinks that's the best thing for Formula One, then I'd have a very serious thought about me retiring."

[ioan]

He is interfering with things he shouldn't, as he always did! ;)
This was my only point, being pro McLaren or Ferrari isn't my problem with him.

[Andy65]

The more I read about this the more it looks as though the fuel was not too cold but that the tempurature readings given by the FIA were wrong !

[passmeatissue]

"If anybody thinks that's the best thing for Formula One, then I'd have a very serious thought about me retiring."

THAT'S (IT'@S) THE BEST THING FOR FORMULA ONE, BERNIE


:laugh:

[Andy65]

At the end of the day all this is about is Mclarens last ditch chance to get Hamilton the championship, but thats not going to happen, but what really gets RD's back up is the fact that the chap that won, up till last year was driving for him :)

[pino]

Meanwhile Ecclestone warns...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63923

[Dave B]

Much as I'd love Lewis to be WDC I honestly wouldn't want to see it happen this way. It would ruin what was - on track at least - a remarkable season.

I'd imagine that if there is to be any punishment for Williams and BMW it will be either a fine or loss of constructors' points earned at Brazil, neither of which would affect the fact that Kimi is the rightful Champion having won most races and scored the most points.

But I still maintain that there should be a clear tariff of penalties laid down in black and white so that we aren't subjected to the whims of stewards and appeal hearings.

[SGWilko]

At the end of the day all this is about is Mclarens last ditch chance to get Hamilton the championship, but thats not going to happen, but what really gets RD's back up is the fact that the chap that won, up till last year was driving for him :)

Is it? I thought it was an attempt to finally get these oiks (stewards, and generally the [perceived] morons in charge) to finally see the light and learn wtf consistency actually means. And then put a stop to the ongoing farce of the FIA published ambient temp figures, that are rarely accurate anyway....

[ArrowsFA1]

...again, the first to air his views and thus influence the outcome is Bernie...
The FIA President was there first a while ago:

"Even if they excluded those cars, they are not obliged to reclassify Hamilton. There's absolutely no need, if they don't wish to, to change the position that Hamilton was in."

[Rusty Spanner]

Is it? I thought it was an attempt to finally get these oiks (stewards, and generally the [perceived] morons in charge) to finally see the light and learn wtf consistency actually means. And then put a stop to the ongoing farce of the FIA published ambient temp figures, that are rarely accurate anyway....


Thats pretty much it.

Either the FIA has to admit that their Stewards at the meeting were wrong to have not punished the teams involved.

Or

The FIA has to admit that their Stewards failed to be able to perform the most basic of technical checks (in the most technically complicated sport around) in taking the fuel temperature with any degree of certainty.

Either way the FIA doesn't come out of the whole thing looking too clever and has the appearance that they are unable to enforce their own rules.

Of course there is also actually the 3rd way. Some fudged, half baked cop-out of a verdict shrouded in a think fog misdirection and re-interpreted rules.

[BDunnell]

Thats pretty much it.

Either the FIA has to admit that their Stewards at the meeting were wrong to have not punished the teams involved.

Or

The FIA has to admit that their Stewards failed to be able to perform the most basic of technical checks (in the most technically complicated sport around) in taking the fuel temperature with any degree of certainty.

Either way the FIA doesn't come out of the whole thing looking too clever and has the appearance that they are unable to enforce their own rules.

Of course there is also actually the 3rd way. Some fudged, half baked cop-out of a verdict shrouded in a think fog misdirection and re-interpreted rules.

That's exactly my view. In addition, I trust that this rule which has come to prominence so suddenly will be enforced with absolute strictness from now on, rather than forgotten about once this case is over, because it is clearly of the utmost importance to the fairness of F1.

If you believe that, you'll believe anything...

[markabilly]

"If anybody thinks that's the best thing for Formula One, then I'd have a very serious thought about me retiring."

THAT'S THE BEST THING FOR FORMULA ONE, BERNIE


:laugh:
Forget it!!!he said "serious thoughts" and NOT "I will retire" .......if he had said I will retire if LH is crowned WDC, I would start chanting Hamilton Hamilton

But on the other hand, who wants the kids of bernie or his trust ruling F1???????

bernie is just acknowledging the obvious with such flimsy evidence where the stewards can not really say what was the right temps and whether their measurments were even reliable as to the actual temperatures of the fuel (as they said in their statement--I don't get that, as maybe their thermometer was broken or they just do not know how to do it accurrately????)

Such a penalty would truly be a big black mark on the FIA, although Bernie clearly had his fav for the WDC...and it was NOT Kimi...... :eek:

[Andy65]

That's exactly my view. In addition, I trust that this rule which has come to prominence so suddenly will be enforced with absolute strictness from now on, rather than forgotten about once this case is over, because it is clearly of the utmost importance to the fairness of F1.

If you believe that, you'll believe anything...

Yes but again I say has any rule been broken ? the tempurature readings given by the weather chaps who give information to the teams which run by international standards have said that the air tempurature was at least 4 deg cooler than those readings given out by the FIA, and the track tempurature given by the FIA was way out, a report on the ITV web said they believe the probes were left in direct sunlight and not in the shade where the readings should be taken !!

[tinchote]

What nobody explained, regarding this affair, is how do the teams cool-down the fuel? As far as I know, the fuel rigs are standard equipment provided by FIA. I mean, if BMW had ice-bags around the fuel rig everybody would have seen them, would it? So, how do they do it? :confused:

[Andy65]

What nobody explained, regarding this affair, is how do the teams cool-down the fuel? As far as I know, the fuel rigs are standard equipment provided by FIA. I mean, if BMW had ice-bags around the fuel rig everybody would have seen them, would it? So, how do they do it? :confused:


True !!

[ioan]

Martin Whitmarsh still believes that appealing the race results was the only way having the rules clarified.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63931

I still find it bizarre that they can't simply ask the FIA to clarify this mess with a simple rule change and a press release! :rolleyes:

[BDunnell]

Martin Whitmarsh still believes that appealing the race results was the only way having the rules clarified.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63931

I still find it bizarre that they can't simply ask the FIA to clarify this mess with a simple rule change and a press release! :rolleyes:

On this point, I trust that McLaren are able to state categorically that they checked the temperature of the fuel they were using at every possible opportunity at every race meeting in 2007.

This is what I mean about people suddenly becoming concerned about this issue, which has never exercised them before.

[Andy65]

Martin Whitmarsh still believes that appealing the race results was the only way having the rules clarified.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63931

I still find it bizarre that they can't simply ask the FIA to clarify this mess with a simple rule change and a press release! :rolleyes:

But that wouldn't give Hamilton a second chance at the championship would it !

[SGWilko]

On this point, I trust that McLaren are able to state categorically that they checked the temperature of the fuel they were using at every possible opportunity at every race meeting in 2007.

IIRC there was an article in the Autosport Journal about this - http://www.autosport.com/journal/article.php/id/1317, and only McLaren, Ferrari and one other team I cannot remember have coolers/heaters that constantly keep the fuel in the rigs at the coolest possible temp within the regs.

Other teams have less sophisticated equipment that cannot be used to react quickly enough to rapid changes in temp, and this is where BMW and Williams got caught out, I believe.

[SGWilko]

IIRC there was an article in the Autosport Journal about this - http://www.autosport.com/journal/article.php/id/1317, and only McLaren, Ferrari and one other team I cannot remember have coolers/heaters that constantly keep the fuel in the rigs at the coolest possible temp within the regs.

Other teams have less sophisticated equipment that cannot be used to react quickly enough to rapid changes in temp, and this is where BMW and Williams got caught out, I believe.

See also http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63930

[ArrowsFA1]

I still find it bizarre that they can't simply ask the FIA to clarify this mess with a simple rule change and a press release! :rolleyes:
Many of the FIA rules are worded so as to be open to interpretation. This particular reg is not one of those. The fuel temp limit is specified, as is the means of measuring that limit.

Changing a rule because it's been broken is not an acceptable solution for anyone, particularly as the FIA themselves confirmed (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63557) that the fuel temperatures of the BMW Sauber and Williams cars were outside the regulations.

[ioan]

Many of the FIA rules are worded so as to be open to interpretation. This particular reg is not one of those. The fuel temp limit is specified, as is the means of measuring that limit.

Changing a rule because it's been broken is not an acceptable solution for anyone, particularly as the FIA themselves confirmed (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63557) that the fuel temperatures of the BMW Sauber and Williams cars were outside the regulations.

Apparently the rule was not broken, but the FIA's way of measuring the air temperature seems to be useless.

Thus amending the rules as happened with the flexible floors would have been the way to go.
And BTW why didn't McLaren also challenge the Australian GP result in order to get a clarification of the rule on flexing floors?
A change in the testing methods was enough then to clarify things but it isn't now.

Hypocrites.

[SGWilko]

Apparently the rule was not broken,

Technically, if you take the correct ambient temp (not the hopeless FIA official one) then no, they would have been within the rules.

But, and its a big but sadly, the rules (you know, the hopeless FIA things what aint wurf the paper wot they is writted on) stae that the FIA temp (the consistently incorrect one (do you see a pattern forming here, anyone)) is the temp that counts. So, they were infringing the rules.

It IS pedantic, but you can see McLarens POV. And I would be horrified if Lewis became champ because of it.

Kimi is the champ.

Period.

[Rusty Spanner]

Yes but again I say has any rule been broken ?

At this point, this long after the event its almost impossible to tell with cetainty. The FIA bungled the enforcement of its own rules. So whilst I think its pretty likely no rule was actually broken - either deliberately or on purpose - the fact is the FIA checked and promptly confused itself!

[ArrowsFA1]

Thus amending the rules as happened with the flexible floors would have been the way to go.
I don't think clarification is the way to go in this case because, as the FIA's regs are clear, what would clarification achieve? The FIA have already confirmed Williams and BMW's fuel was outside the regulations. The rules were open to interpretation where the floor was concerned, hence the need for clarification and the FIA amending the test.

[Rusty Spanner]

Technically, if you take the correct ambient temp (not the hopeless FIA official one) then no, they would have been within the rules.


Wasn't there a meeting of the FIA and teams Technical Working group earlier in the year at which it was agreed by all that the reference temperautre would be the one that was displayed on the timing monitors. That way every team could see it all the time and use it to check the calibration of their equipment. Unfortunately the FIA stewards in Brazil (Wonder what reference they were using at the other races?) forgot this.

[ArrowsFA1]

Wasn't there a meeting of the FIA and teams Technical Working group earlier in the year at which it was agreed by all that the reference temperautre would be the one that was displayed on the timing monitors.

This from a Q&A with Martin Whitmarsh:


Q. What is this fuel rule all about and why is it important?
Martin Whitmarsh - McLaren F1 CEO: It has been around for about 20 years in fact, so it is not new. Cooler fuel gives an advantage in terms of more power, greater reliability and quicker flow of fuel into the tank. The teams even carry fuel chillers around with them to races to achieve this.
In order, however, to prevent extreme measures being adapted to cool fuel temperatures a limit was determined that the fuel in the rigs not being allowed to be more than 10 degrees C below the ambient temperature.
Q. What went wrong if this had been around for 20 years?
MW: The FIA has always, as far as we are aware, measured compliance by looking at the FIA timing monitors in respect of the ambient temperature and the on-board fuel temperature by measuring the fuel in the rig. This might not be perfect but it was the system and everyone knew it was the procedure that they had to comply with. In fact at each race the FIA make a report using these benchmarks and this is what happened in Brazil.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63931

[markabilly]

Weelll duh here we have a test that ought to be real easy and clear to do...But when the FIA report states they doubt the accuracy of the testing.....

Anyway, you have to wonder what besides flexible floors, is beyond the tech comprehension of the steards if they can not get the temp setting and measurements correct.....



EASY SOLUTION:
Set the rig temp guage for x degrees for all teams...and measure it....or just take all rigs and set the temp the same for all rigs, so when the ambient air temp starts bouncing around, someone does not need to be worrying about adjusting all the dials and so forth to stay within ten degrees.....(and get rid of individual fuel chillers that are not part of the "rig")

[Big Ben]

This is a great discussion about rules... FIA has its own way when it comes to rules... and you should keep that always in mind. We could see how the rules allowed the use of a mass dumper for a year or so and then the same rule banned it. It wasn't some minor difference in the interpretation of the rule... It was a 180 degree change. We could see at the Australian GP how their rules were not fully covered with adequate tests. etc etc

don't forget that FIA doesn't even need a rule to penalize somebody... I don't know if it happened for the first time but we could see that too this year

This controversies about the rules in F1 are the funniest thing. I thing we have better laws even here in this original country called Romania

:laugh:

[passmeatissue]

Something to bear in mind is that McLaren did not protest the race result. They only appealed the stewards' pathetic decision, and this IMO was a sporting decision to get the process improved without trying to win the WDC with it.

[petrolhead ben]

I'm obviously wrong, but I thought that this fuel saga case in Brazil had already been put to rest. But obviously it's not, meaning there is still a chance that lewis could be champion. As much as I like lewis this really would put the icing on the cake after this season wouldn't it. Just imagine what kimi and ferrari would feel about it. It's incredible to think that he might not be able to keep his WDC beyond the end of November, let alone retaining it in '08'.

If that happened I'm sure it would create another saga in itself because ferrari would appeal about kimi getting his title back again.

[BDunnell]

Something to bear in mind is that McLaren did not protest the race result. They only appealed the stewards' pathetic decision, and this IMO was a sporting decision to get the process improved without trying to win the WDC with it.

Yes. It's just a great shame that it happened when it did, and that the verdict could have an effect on the championship. I really hope this isn't the case, no matter whether the teams/drivers in question should be penalised. Yes, this is inconsistent, but a change to the championship order under these circumstances would make F1 out to be a farce, which I don't believe it is at present despite all its problems.

[passmeatissue]

Yes. It's just a great shame that it happened when it did, and that the verdict could have an effect on the championship. I really hope this isn't the case, no matter whether the teams/drivers in question should be penalised. Yes, this is inconsistent, but a change to the championship order under these circumstances would make F1 out to be a farce, which I don't believe it is at present despite all its problems.

Everyone has lost confidence haven't they (we!), so decisions that would normally be accepted are not. So many obvious failures to apply the written rules, now everyone expects each decision to have bias, one way or the other.

But I think even the fuel rule in the decisive last race could have been applied and been accepted, if it had been done properly - with a swift decision accounced and explained between the pitstops and the end of the race.

But as it is, hard to imagine the WDC being changed.

[GP-M3]

But I think even the fuel rule in the decisive last race could have been applied and been accepted, if it had been done properly - with a swift decision accounced and explained between the pitstops and the end of the race.


I think it's important not to loose focus that they determined there was not conclusive evidence of an infringement, and that the evidence was contradictory, so no judgement was made.

That being the case, I don't understand what they are appealing now. Further, the Mac was not involved in the case, and therefore is on marginal grounds for actually having the right to wage an appeal.

"The court that meets today in London (thanks to the transit strikes in Paris) could decide that there is no case for an appeal to be made because procedures are usually different. According to the FIA Statutes appeals against decisions by the stewards of a meeting can be lodged by "one of the parties concerned". It is arguable whether McLaren was concerned in the specific issue. There is an argument that the team should perhaps have protested the race result and then appealed if that protest had been rejected by the FIA Stewards."

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19864.html

[passmeatissue]

I think it's important not to loose focus that they determined there was not conclusive evidence of an infringement, and that the evidence was contradictory, so no judgement was made.

That being the case, I don't understand what they are appealing now. Further, the Mac was not involved in the case, and therefore is on marginal grounds for actually having the right to wage an appeal.

"The court that meets today in London (thanks to the transit strikes in Paris) could decide that there is no case for an appeal to be made because procedures are usually different. According to the FIA Statutes appeals against decisions by the stewards of a meeting can be lodged by "one of the parties concerned". It is arguable whether McLaren was concerned in the specific issue. There is an argument that the team should perhaps have protested the race result and then appealed if that protest had been rejected by the FIA Stewards."

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19864.html

Apparently it had been decided in committee, and notified to teams by the FIA, that the fuel temperature would be measured in the fuel rig, and the reference ambient temperature would be the FoM data as displayed on the pitwall. To cover exactly the difficulties encountered in Brazil.

McLaren's point is that either the stewards didn't know, as they should have, or they pretended not to know in order to duck a difficult decision.

Yes it sounds as though the appeal panel can just go straight home if they want. But they are lawyers, I suspect their hourly rate will keep them there for a bit ;)

[BDunnell]

Everyone has lost confidence haven't they (we!), so decisions that would normally be accepted are not. So many obvious failures to apply the written rules, now everyone expects each decision to have bias, one way or the other.

Not me, for one, as I genuinely don't believe that there is any bias on the part of Ecclestone or the FIA that has led to decisions being taken one way or the other. I didn't think that in the years of Schumacher domination and I don't now.

[GP-M3]

Apparently it had been decided in committee, and notified to teams by the FIA, that the fuel temperature would be measured in the fuel rig, and the reference ambient temperature would be the FoM data as displayed on the pitwall. To cover exactly the difficulties encountered in Brazil.

I think the other point was that the FOM ambient temperature readings were way off. I remember seeing the track temperature as 146f which I'm sure was way over. And the actual meteorologists hired by the teams had far lower and more reasobable readings. And they setup a lonely booth to international standards to take the readings. So there is some evidence that the FOM temperatures readings were quite off. Thus the non-decision, decision.

[wmcot]

EASY SOLUTION:
Set the rig temp guage for x degrees for all teams...and measure it....or just take all rigs and set the temp the same for all rigs, so when the ambient air temp starts bouncing around, someone does not need to be worrying about adjusting all the dials and so forth to stay within ten degrees.....(and get rid of individual fuel chillers that are not part of the "rig")

I agree completely! With all the technology in an F1 team, it shouldn't be too hard to create a fuel rig with a regulated temperature set to a specific temperature for all teams (within a certain tolerance.) Basing fuel rig temperature on FIA reading displayed on trackside monitors is an antiquated method. What were Williams and BMW supposed to do if (when?) they discovered their fuel temps were too low, build a fire under the rig??? ;)

[BDunnell]

I agree completely! With all the technology in an F1 team, it shouldn't be too hard to create a fuel rig with a regulated temperature set to a specific temperature for all teams (within a certain tolerance.) Basing fuel rig temperature on FIA reading displayed on trackside monitors is an antiquated method. What were Williams and BMW supposed to do if (when?) they discovered their fuel temps were too low, build a fire under the rig??? ;)

:laugh:

A standard fuel temperature measuring device shouldn't be beyond the wit of man.

(As long as it isn't made by a McLaren group company, of course. ;) )

[jas123f1]

Apparently the rule was not broken, but the FIA's way of measuring the air temperature seems to be useless.

Thus amending the rules as happened with the flexible floors would have been the way to go.
And BTW why didn't McLaren also challenge the Australian GP result in order to get a clarification of the rule on flexing floors?
A change in the testing methods was enough then to clarify things but it isn't now.

Hypocrites.

How the stewards got the air temperature? From a weather forecast?
I heard that the cooling system for fuel in the cars has some kind of thermostat and the teams are using the temperature from the weather forecast to fix a right fuel temperature for a race.
The other question is how it’s possible that 3 cars have same faultiness in same race or maybe there were more cars with too big difference between air (weather forecast?) and fuel temperature - but they were behind Hamilton?
However this whole "case" made a bit affected manners and for me it's only McLaren’s latest trick in this season. Now they even destroyed Ferraris and Kimis "party" as well when they had to wait - because of McLaren's disappointment that they blew their best ever chance to get the drivers title.

[markabilly]

I agree completely! With all the technology in an F1 team, it shouldn't be too hard to create a fuel rig with a regulated temperature set to a specific temperature for all teams (within a certain tolerance.) Basing fuel rig temperature on FIA reading displayed on trackside monitors is an antiquated method. What were Williams and BMW supposed to do if (when?) they discovered their fuel temps were too low, build a fire under the rig??? ;)

You are right, but I think the actual method would depend on how close to time for the pitstop, might be too slow for the time left, in which case, just take the lid off the tank and use a big blow torch.

for that I would definitely go back to watching F1 live :hot:

[Hawkmoon]

EASY SOLUTION:
Set the rig temp guage for x degrees for all teams...and measure it....or just take all rigs and set the temp the same for all rigs, so when the ambient air temp starts bouncing around, someone does not need to be worrying about adjusting all the dials and so forth to stay within ten degrees.....(and get rid of individual fuel chillers that are not part of the "rig")


I agree completely! With all the technology in an F1 team, it shouldn't be too hard to create a fuel rig with a regulated temperature set to a specific temperature for all teams (within a certain tolerance.) Basing fuel rig temperature on FIA reading displayed on trackside monitors is an antiquated method. What were Williams and BMW supposed to do if (when?) they discovered their fuel temps were too low, build a fire under the rig??? ;)

I also agree. What a nice simple solution. I'm sure these genius F1 engineering-types can come up with something suitable.

I think the point that tinchote raised also warrants discussion, namely, how did the fuel in a standard FIA-approved rig get to be outside allowable temperatures? How is the fuel in the rig temperature-regulated anyway? Were all the teams fuel rigs tested, including McLaren's?

Also, why were BMW and Williams allowed to continue racing after their fuel was found to be too cool after the first stops only one third of the way into the race? If they were clearly in breach of the rules, as McLaren are claiming, why weren't they black-flagged on the spot? Massa and Fisichella were immediately black-flagged for running the red light in Canada, which was a clear breach of the rules.

What did BMW and Williams do that cooled their fuel? Do they have better air conditioning in their pits than the other teams? Did somebody leave the beer esky too close to the fueling rig?

[markabilly]

I also agree. What a nice simple solution. I'm sure these genius F1 engineering-types can come up with something suitable.

I think the point that tinchote raised also warrants discussion, namely, how did the fuel in a standard FIA-approved rig get to be outside allowable temperatures? How is the fuel in the rig temperature-regulated anyway? Were all the teams fuel rigs tested, including McLaren's?

Also, why were BMW and Williams allowed to continue racing after their fuel was found to be too cool after the first stops only one third of the way into the race? If they were clearly in breach of the rules, as McLaren are claiming, why weren't they black-flagged on the spot? Massa and Fisichella were immediately black-flagged for running the red light in Canada, which was a clear breach of the rules.

What did BMW and Williams do that cooled their fuel? Do they have better air conditioning in their pits than the other teams? Did somebody leave the beer esky too close to the fueling rig?
Somewhere I saw something that teams can or do use auxillary coolers to go with the rigs. I guess that means the team is free to mess with the temp of the fuel. I could see such a practice from many years ago, but with the rigs, the whole idea was to stop the various teams from doing this kind of backdoor gaining of an advavtage as well as the safety factor.

Otherwise the best way to get the fuel in would not be messing with temp. but simply ramp up the pressure in the rig and do an 8 sec fill in three seconds.

THe calculations for improvement in response to fuel temp does not show much of an advantage, like 20 hp or whatever, while the fuel is 10 degrees cooler, according to some stuff that was put out when this began an issue. Here we are talking one to three degrees, so the improvement in total lap times, assuming that the fuel was actually kept at this temp in the car while it was racing the whole time (an obvious problem), would not add up to a big advantage--and not nearly enough to account for the gap between LH and the other cars in front.

Where it might be a big advantage would be in qualifying, rather than the race

[ioan]

At what time is the hearing?

[ArrowsFA1]

At what time is the hearing?
No idea. Autosport reported (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63917) that the hearing had been moved from Paris to London, and that the "date and time remain unchanged". They don't mention what time :p

[Garry Walker]

No idea. Autosport reported (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63917) that the hearing had been moved from Paris to London, and that the "date and time remain unchanged". They don't mention what time :p

They probably dont want too fanatical and eager Ferrari and Hamilton supporters causing havoc

[ArrowsFA1]

The hearing has started (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63945).


An International Automobile Federation (FIA) spokeswoman said a judgment was likely to come on Friday.

[Garry Walker]

The hearing has started (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63945).

Only on FRIDAY?

The CxxxS!!!

[TMorel]

Of course it'll be Friday.
It'll take a while for Max to ask Bernie what he's allowed to do.
Then everyone will vote.
It'll take an hour or so to count the votes and then for Max to ignore the count and say it was unanimous result.
Then he'll have to go back to Bernie again.
After a quick phone call to Ron to see if he'll drop the Renault allegations he'll decide to give the championship to Schumi, as based on the testing he's obviously faster than anyone and would have won had he not been forced to retire.

[ioan]

Of course it'll be Friday.
It'll take a while for Max to ask Bernie what he's allowed to do.
Then everyone will vote.
It'll take an hour or so to count the votes and then for Max to ignore the count and say it was unanimous result.
Then he'll have to go back to Bernie again.
After a quick phone call to Ron to see if he'll drop the Renault allegations he'll decide to give the championship to Schumi, as based on the testing he's obviously faster than anyone and would have won had he not been forced to retire.

:rotflmao:

[ArrowsFA1]

Good stuff TMorel :up: :laugh:

According to Autosport (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63949):

The opening hour of the hearing was devoted to the issue of whether the appeal was admissible, with the judges from the United States, Greece, Portugal and Czech Republic still to rule on that.

[F1boat]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63930

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63949

I hate this pen, called a F1 team.

[Andy65]

At the end of the day all this is about is Mclarens last ditch chance to get Hamilton the championship, but thats not going to happen, but what really gets RD's back up is the fact that the chap that won, up till last year was driving for him :)

Just as I said !!

[ioan]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63930

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63949

I hate this pen, called a F1 team.

Rule clarification my a.s.s!

Biggest liars and hypocrites F1 has ever seen! :down:

[ArrowsFA1]

Biggest liars and hypocrites F1 has ever seen! :down:
:laugh: Perhaps we should go back to the days when a championship rival of a certain teams driver was put at the back of the grid on a trumped up rule infraction at that teams home GP. Those were the days :p

[markabilly]

:laugh: Perhaps we should go back to the days when a championship rival of a certain teams driver was put at the back of the grid on a trumped up rule infraction at that teams home GP. Those were the days :p
you mean like at monaco last year when poor Micheal's ferrari gave up on him????

[ioan]

:laugh: Perhaps we should go back to the days when a championship rival of a certain teams driver was put at the back of the grid on a trumped up rule infraction at that teams home GP. Those were the days :p

Ferrari did ask for FA to be punished for blocking FM, they didn't hide behind any rule clarification request!
So don't compare apples with oranges.

McLaren lied for weeks that they want just a clarification of the rule about the fuel temperatures.
When they arrive in front of the Appeal Court they ask for the drivers to be disqualified and Hamilton given the WDC.

If you are trying to protect their stance on this, than I'm afraid that I will have to ignore your posts.

[F1boat]

If Hamilton is gifted the title, I hope that F1 will collapse and be destroyed. Really. And McLaren team annihilated by Osama. I really HATE this team.

[ArrowsFA1]

When they arrive in front of the Appeal Court they ask for the drivers to be disqualified and Hamilton given the WDC.
You're believing the poor journalism we were talking about elsewhere.

Ferrari did ask for FA to be punished for blocking FM, they didn't hide behind any rule clarification request!
So don't compare apples with oranges.
You'll need to go back 31 years for the example I was thinking about.

[ioan]

You'll need to go back 31 years for the example I was thinking about.

Sorry, I have little knowledge of pre 1990 F1, it only includes the drivers and the cars.

Anyway, whatever happened back than won't change McLaren's hypocrisy.

[markabilly]

Hypocrisy?

"The principle is clear," Reuters reports Mill said during the hearing. "If there was a breach, it was performance-enhancing. The sanction, I'm afraid, has to be disqualification."

seems to sum it up.......

[ArrowsFA1]

Sorry, I have little knowledge of pre 1990 F1, it only includes the drivers and the cars.
That's a shame, the 1976 season was a corker :)

[ioan]

That's a shame, the 1976 season was a corker :)

I'll take a look as soon as I'll have enough time.

[SGWilko]

I also agree. What a nice simple solution. I'm sure these genius F1 engineering-types can come up with something suitable.

I think the point that tinchote raised also warrants discussion, namely, how did the fuel in a standard FIA-approved rig get to be outside allowable temperatures? How is the fuel in the rig temperature-regulated anyway? Were all the teams fuel rigs tested, including McLaren's?

Also, why were BMW and Williams allowed to continue racing after their fuel was found to be too cool after the first stops only one third of the way into the race? If they were clearly in breach of the rules, as McLaren are claiming, why weren't they black-flagged on the spot? Massa and Fisichella were immediately black-flagged for running the red light in Canada, which was a clear breach of the rules.

What did BMW and Williams do that cooled their fuel? Do they have better air conditioning in their pits than the other teams? Did somebody leave the beer esky too close to the fueling rig?

This article tells you all you need to know about the intelligent, well informed, capable and generally top drawer people at the FIA tech dept......

http://www.autosport.com/journal/article.php/id/1359

So you see, a rule clarification in this area is desperately needed. In fact, lets appoint David Blunket head of the FIA, I bet he'll see more than Max ever did........... :p :

[ioan]

F1 teams are not impressed by McLaren's back door move:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63956



"As McLaren have always said, the championship should be decided on the racetrack and not in the courtroom."

Tozzi said comments by McLaren bosses that they were not appealing in order to win the title through the back door but for clarification of the rules should either be taken at face value or be seen as the words of "shameless hypocrites devoid of any integrity".

BMW Sauber's lawyer Ian Meakin spoke of "naked opportunism" on the part of McLaren and suggested that, even if the appeal were to be allowed, a fine should be the maximum penalty applicable.


The underlined part sums up Ron Dennis pretty well, IMO.

[SGWilko]

F1 teams are not impressed by McLaren's back door move:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63956



The underlined part sums up Ron Dennis pretty well, IMO.

How do you feel about Flav? Do you think he and his team are also hypocrites? What di Flav say during the Stepnygate about the Ferrari info at McLaren?

And now, since 2006 no less, it has transpired that Renault has had on their computers, and known by some 15 senior personell to exist, they are only now admitting it........

[SGWilko]

How do you feel about Flav? Do you think he and his team are also hypocrites? What di Flav say during the Stepnygate about the Ferrari info at McLaren?

And now, since 2006 no less, it has transpired that Renault has had on their computers, and known by some 15 senior personell to exist, they are only now admitting it........

Eugh, that's realy badly worded, sorry. But you get the point of it I hope?

[passmeatissue]

Well no surprise that Ferrari, BWM and Williams think McLaren shouldn't have appealed.

But what do you thing other F1 teams, including these, would have done if they had been in McLaren's position? Would they have foregone the appeal in order not to win off the track?

I can't think of a time when a team could have won on appeal, and, purely on the altruistic principle of 'not winning off the track', didn't.

[GP-M3]

Rule clarification my a.s.s!

Biggest liars and hypocrites F1 has ever seen! :down:

100% What a bunch of lying, hypocritical unsportsmanlike morons. I was neutral to Mac to this point, but I'm becoming a Mac hater quickly...

[Crypt]

Yesterday Mac says "We just want a clarification of the rules, we don't want to win the title this way".

Today "We want BMW and Williams disqualified from the Brazillian Grand Prix".

Hey Ron,

SOD OFF.


I just hope this judge and jury can be bi-partisan.

[BDunnell]

Sorry, I have little knowledge of pre 1990 F1, it only includes the drivers and the cars.

Anyway, whatever happened back than won't change McLaren's hypocrisy.

They were lovely days. It was a time when there weren't internet message boards in which loads of conspiracy-related, bile-filled crap could be posted.

[Hawkmoon]

Well no surprise that Ferrari, BWM and Williams think McLaren shouldn't have appealed.

But what do you thing other F1 teams, including these, would have done if they had been in McLaren's position? Would they have foregone the appeal in order not to win off the track?

I can't think of a time when a team could have won on appeal, and, purely on the altruistic principle of 'not winning off the track', didn't.

It's not the appeal and attempt to win the title in the courts that annoys me. It's the constant attempts to disguise the appeal as a "clarification" when everybody can plainly see what it really is.

This lawyer, Mills, also didn't do his homework. Schumacher and Coulthard kept their points despite their respective teams being disqualified for fuel problems from the Brazillian GP of, I think, 1995. That's just one example from the last 20 years that goes against his assertion that all breaches always lead to disqualification.

It's also quite ironic that McLaren were fined for the breach of using too many tyres in practice and Hamilton escaped all penalty at the same GP that McLaren want their rivals disqualified.

"Team Integrity", indeed. :dozey:

[GP-M3]

They were lovely days. It was a time when there weren't internet message boards in which loads of conspiracy-related, bile-filled crap could be posted.

Not really... here in the states you couldn't find out what was happening at all in F1. Maybe you would get a blurb in the paper on Monday or Tuesday, that was about it.

Glad things have progressed. Now we have SpeedTV which shows practice/qually and the Race, and the internet, where we can follow things during the off season, and in season testing, etc...

[rabf1]

"It's also quite ironic that McLaren were fined for the breach of using too many tyres in practice and Hamilton escaped all penalty at the same GP that McLaren want their rivals disqualified."

Not to mention that McLaren cheated and got the boot from the constructors championship, but their drivers got to keep their points. Now these cheaters want someone else to lose their points? Its pretty sickening.

[wmcot]

OK, let's be totally consistent and fair - if we disqualify Williams and BMW (and their drivers) for the performance enhancement of slightly too cool fuel, let's retroactively disqualify both McLaren drivers for the performance enhancement of the team having Ferrari data. While we're at it, let's disqualify Renault and their drivers, too! And on...and on...

By the time we get through all the appeals, Winkelhock will be WDC!

[wmcot]

"It's also quite ironic that McLaren were fined for the breach of using too many tyres in practice and Hamilton escaped all penalty at the same GP that McLaren want their rivals disqualified."

Not to mention that McLaren cheated and got the boot from the constructors championship, but their drivers got to keep their points. Now these cheaters want someone else to lose their points? Its pretty sickening.

To think I actually used to respect Ron Dennis???? :(

[passmeatissue]

It's not the appeal and attempt to win the title in the courts that annoys me. It's the constant attempts to disguise the appeal as a "clarification" when everybody can plainly see what it really is.

This lawyer, Mills, also didn't do his homework. Schumacher and Coulthard kept their points despite their respective teams being disqualified for fuel problems from the Brazillian GP of, I think, 1995. That's just one example from the last 20 years that goes against his assertion that all breaches always lead to disqualification.

It's also quite ironic that McLaren were fined for the breach of using too many tyres in practice and Hamilton escaped all penalty at the same GP that McLaren want their rivals disqualified.

"Team Integrity", indeed. :dozey:

The difference between what McLaren and Ian Mills are saying is a just facet of adversarial law, where Mills presents the strongest case he can, so do the others, then the judges decide. This would be Mills' training, he would say he is entitled to ask for anything, then what the judges decide is up to them, so if they give Hammy the title it's their doing. McLaren are saying that's not their motivation.

It would be for Tozzi and the others to introduce the DC/MS fuel precedent, Mills is not supposed to be balanced.

The tyres were only used for one install lap, there was no advantage and the breach was of sporting regulations, rather than technical. Tech regs are always more precisely enforced, in theory, while there is more leeway for judgement in the sporting regs.

A lot of over-the-top moral outrage over this, IMHO.

[wmcot]

Most people complain of Bernie and Max ruining F1, I think we could add Ron Dennis to that list!

"Saint Ron of Integrity" has a very tarnished halo!

[Hawkmoon]

The difference between what McLaren and Ian Mills are saying is a just facet of adversarial law, where Mills presents the strongest case he can, so do the others, then the judges decide. This would be Mills' training, he would say he is entitled to ask for anything, then what the judges decide is up to them, so if they give Hammy the title it's their doing. McLaren are saying that's not their motivation.

It would be for Tozzi and the others to introduce the DC/MS fuel precedent, Mills is not supposed to be balanced.

The tyres were only used for one install lap, there was no advantage and the breach was of sporting regulations, rather than technical. Tech regs are always more precisely enforced, in theory, while there is more leeway for judgement in the sporting regs.

A lot of over-the-top moral outrage over this, IMHO.

Hamilton would have had an extra set of scrubbed tyres. So even though it was a procedural breach it could be argued that Hamilton would have gained a technical advantage had he gotten away with it.

As for McLaren's motivation. It's as obvious as the proverbial turd in a punchbowl that McLaren's motivation is to get Hamilton the title. No problem there. Just stop trying to make out that winning the title would only be an inconsequential by-product of a mere "clarification" attempt.

[wmcot]

Hamilton would have had an extra set of scrubbed tyres. So even though it was a procedural breach it could be argued that Hamilton would have gained a technical advantage had he gotten away with it.



Not to mention a few extra laps in the wet to familiarize himself with the track in case the race was rainy! (Sounds like an advantage to me!)

[F1boat]

Well, in my opinion constructors points should be taken, but WDC should stay as it is. F1 title should not be decided by 5 C.

[ioan]

I think that Bernie might think twice next time when he has the chance to protect Ron and his team.

Imagine that Hamilton is awarded 4th place and thus the championship, the very next moment Ferrari will start a procedure to get FA and LH disqualified from this years championship, not too mention that McLaren might have to sit out the next season too.

They won't get any sympathy from fellow competitors after this show of lack of the most basic moral stance.

[passmeatissue]

Not to mention a few extra laps in the wet to familiarize himself with the track in case the race was rainy! (Sounds like an advantage to me!)

Dry race in prospect, one install accidentally on a second set of wets, $15,000 fine, I don't see what it has to do with the appeal.

I would have preferred McLaren to either go for the appeal as a protest or to keep Ian Mills on message with the clarification-only version, but I just don't get all the outrage. An F1 team aren't saints - so what, nor are the others. They're bad at PR, that's not the end of the world.

The judges are going to decide. Mills, Ron and co know this. They don't expect to win but they can make their case. Once the stewards or the FIA cocked it up, that's how it's supposed to be.

[wmcot]

Dry race in prospect, one install accidentally on a second set of wets, $15,000 fine, I don't see what it has to do with the appeal.

I would have preferred McLaren to either go for the appeal as a protest or to keep Ian Mills on message with the clarification-only version, but I just don't get all the outrage. An F1 team aren't saints - so what, nor are the others. They're bad at PR, that's not the end of the world.

The tire issue is just an example of how McLaren could have been judged to have gained an advantage, that's all.

As for McLaren's bad PR, I wouldn't call publicly stating "we only want a clarification" and then going for "we want 3 drivers disqualified and the championship awarded to us" bad PR! I would call that being two-faced liars!

(p.s. Don't argue that it's just legal maneuvering, it still reflects badly on McLaren "integrity")

[ioan]

Dry race in prospect, one install accidentally on a second set of wets, $15,000 fine, I don't see what it has to do with the appeal.

I would have preferred McLaren to either go for the appeal as a protest or to keep Ian Mills on message with the clarification-only version, but I just don't get all the outrage. An F1 team aren't saints - so what, nor are the others. They're bad at PR, that's not the end of the world.

The judges are going to decide. Mills, Ron and co know this. They don't expect to win but they can make their case. Once the stewards or the FIA cocked it up, that's how it's supposed to be.

I simply despise liar and hypocrites, and could live a nice life without having to hear about such people (for example the McCheats&Liars&Hypocrites, starting with RD).

Maybe some people appreciate such beings, I don't.

[ioan]

(p.s. Don't argue that it's just legal maneuvering, it still reflects badly on McLaren "integrity")

Integrity is a word that shouldn't be associated with McLaren, let alone written alongside.

[Hawkmoon]

Dry race in prospect, one install accidentally on a second set of wets, $15,000 fine, I don't see what it has to do with the appeal.

I would have preferred McLaren to either go for the appeal as a protest or to keep Ian Mills on message with the clarification-only version, but I just don't get all the outrage. An F1 team aren't saints - so what, nor are the others. They're bad at PR, that's not the end of the world.

The judges are going to decide. Mills, Ron and co know this. They don't expect to win but they can make their case. Once the stewards or the FIA cocked it up, that's how it's supposed to be.

I'd say the fact that they were running around on wets suggests that the prospect of a wet race was factored in when Hamilton "accidentally" scubbed an extra set of wet tyres.

It's relevance to the appeal comes from the fact that Mills has asserted that a breach of the regulations must result in disqualification as a matter of 20 years of precedent. He's wrong. The Stewards have a range of options open to them (one of the problems of F1, incidentily) as shown by the very GP that McLaren are protesting.

The thing that is annoying me and others is that McLaren promote themselves as the "Honest Johns" of the pitlane yet try to disguise their intentions as a "clarification" rather than call like it is, ie. a last ditch attempt at the WDC.

[passmeatissue]

The thing that is annoying me and others is that McLaren promote themselves as the "Honest Johns" of the pitlane yet try to disguise their intentions as a "clarification" rather than call like it is, ie. a last ditch attempt at the WDC.

Well I have never seen them that way, I remember Ron saying to a group of journos "you only write about history, I make history", which annoyed the hell out of them as you can imagine, and how badly he wanted every single race in 1988(?). He is a bad winner, never mind a bad loser. So maybe I find it easier to make allowances now. For me they're a race team, and broadly as honest and dishonest as the others.

A lot of people have fallen for the anti-McLaren hype this year, orchestrated by Max and Montezemolo. If more comes out of the Renault hearing and Bernie's "crisis meeting" it will make it more obvious that their ethics are quite normal for F1.

[ioan]

A lot of people have fallen for the anti-McLaren hype this year, orchestrated by Max and Montezemolo.

Oh, I think I'm going to cry :( , please pass me a tissue! :p :

[passmeatissue]

Oh, I think I'm going to cry :( , please pass me a tissue! :p :

This is an F1 forum, ioan, not a kiddie playground

[wmcot]

Well I have never seen them that way, I remember Ron saying to a group of journos "you only write about history, I make history", which annoyed the hell out of them as you can imagine, and how badly he wanted every single race in 1988(?). He is a bad winner, never mind a bad loser. So maybe I find it easier to make allowances now. For me they're a race team, and broadly as honest and dishonest as the others.


But it was Ron spouting off about his "integrity" all season long ever since the spying issue came up! Maybe he's got a different dictionary than the rest of us.

[wmcot]

Integrity is a word that shouldn't be associated with McLaren, let alone written alongside.

That's why I put it in quotes. I was trying to signify Ron's self-proclaimed version of his integrity" is completely different from the world's definition of integrity!

Maybe I'll start calling it Ron-tegrity! :)

[GP-M3]

By the time we get through all the appeals, Winkelhock will be WDC!

LOL! Excellent! :)

[markabilly]

Originally Posted by wmcot http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/aria/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=385679#post385679)
By the time we get through all the appeals, Winkelhock will be WDC!


LOL! Excellent!



LOL! Excellent! :)


Actually very incorrect.

All drivers this year, including Winkel who was driving that Spyker copy of Toyota with a different paint job with a ferrari engine with parts stolen from somebody that I am sure must be somewhere in that engine, will be disqualified for all these reasons.


Opps, I forgot:all except for two, and you should know who those two are because they were promised immunity... :D

As some lawyer once said, justice is the last thing I want for my client

[GP-M3]

Opps, I forgot:all except for two, and you should know who those two are because they were promised immunity... :D


Ha, ha! Good point, so we circle around and everyone is disqualified.... except the two who had immunity to begin with... and as LH wins it on tiebreakers... I guess the teflon boy (golden by some standards) wins!

[Valve Bounce]

I am afraid that if the finding results in Kimi losing the WDC, Ferrari will then protest/appeal that since the McLarens were stripped of their Constructor's points, the cars should also have been disqualified. You can't have it both ways, and the argument that Bernie wanted desperately not to lose his spectators for the remaining championship races this year had the two McLaren drivers been disqualifed won't hold much water in the same court.

I know somebody else had already posted the same opinion previously on this thread, and I just wanted to post this as my opinion also.

[555-04Q2]

I am afraid that if the finding results in Kimi losing the WDC, Ferrari will then protest/appeal that since the McLarens were stripped of their Constructor's points, the cars should also have been disqualified. You can't have it both ways, and the argument that Bernie wanted desperately not to lose his spectators for the remaining championship races this year had the two McLaren drivers been disqualifed won't hold much water in the same court.

I know somebody else had already posted the same opinion previously on this thread, and I just wanted to post this as my opinion also.

That is my opinion as well. There will be no winners in this situation, only losers, but, we also have to remember that if the speculated cars were illegal, then the law must be upheld according to the rules.

Lets be honest, the whole situation stinks :down:

[wmcot]

If they disqualify the Williams and BMW cars and drivers, they should give the trophy to Ian Mills since Lewis has already said he doesn't want it!

(Wait, I forgot. Ron won't give it to Lewis anyway since he insists on keeping all drivers' trophies. Maybe he could put it in a display case titled "The Unearned Championship.")

[Valve Bounce]

The final battle will come down to why the McLaren drivers were offered imdemnity. Was this one ay of rigging a championship to go down to the wire to gain more viewers?

I must say the whole thing has left a very bitter taste in my mouth.

[wmcot]

The final battle will come down to why the McLaren drivers were offered imdemnity. Was this one ay of rigging a championship to go down to the wire to gain more viewers?


YES.

[555-04Q2]

The final battle will come down to why the McLaren drivers were offered imdemnity. Was this one ay of rigging a championship to go down to the wire to gain more viewers?

I must say the whole thing has left a very bitter taste in my mouth.

Yes. More viewers = more TV revenue = more money for Bernie. The guy would sell his soul if he could get a buck for it :(

[ioan]

Yes. More viewers = more TV revenue = more money for Bernie. The guy would sell his soul if he could get a buck for it :(

I doubt than even the devil would want it! :D

[ArrowsFA1]

Yesterday Mac says "We just want a clarification of the rules, we don't want to win the title this way".

Today "We want BMW and Williams disqualified from the Brazillian Grand Prix".
They're not saying we want the teams DQ'd so Hamilton can win the WDC. They are saying that the FIA's rules, which are clear on this issue (and remember we're talking about the fuel issue and nothing else), should be applied, and if they are applied then the penalty is disqualification.

That is a distinction that some chose to ignore, for no other reason than to jump on the anti-McLaren bandwagon that's more like a runaway train at the moment. It's aslo one of the consequences of the way the FIA have dealt with the many controversies this season.


Well, in my opinion constructors points should be taken, but WDC should stay as it is. F1 title should not be decided by 5 C.
I agree :up: However, the rule is clear on this issue. The consistency of the FIA's penalties are not.

[F1boat]

The fact is, if Kimi's WDC is taken, I quit watching F1 and I am sure that I won't be alone. The spirit of the competition is far more important than some obscure rules and it is not as there aren't any other forms of motorsort. Also, usually FIA penalizes teams and not drivers. So really they must only be consistent.

[ioan]

They're not saying we want the teams DQ'd so Hamilton can win the WDC. They are saying that the FIA's rules, which are clear on this issue (and remember we're talking about the fuel issue and nothing else), should be applied, and if they are applied then the penalty is disqualification.

They lawyer asked for the teams to be DQed and also the drivers as they were driving illegal cars, and all this without taking into account that this very season other drivers (guess the drivers :D ) kept their points when the cars were disqualified.

This is exactly asking for the title to be awarded to Hamilton.

[ioan]

The fact is, if Kimi's WDC is taken, I quit watching F1 and I am sure that I won't be alone. The spirit of the competition is far more important than some obscure rules and it is not as there aren't any other forms of motorsort. Also, usually FIA penalizes teams and not drivers. So really they must only be consistent.

This isn't about obscure rules.

It's only about one man's overinflated ego, a man that is a sore winner and an even worse loser. A man who's team didn't win a championship since 1999. The man who's team are spending hundreds of millions of their sponsors money and all they give them is a tarnished image of liars, cheaters and hypocrites! This is a desperate man who is bringing this sport-business down on its knees because of his personal deficiencies!
Ladies and gentlemen I give you RD, the man who's retirement would make the biggest difference to Formula 1's image.

[passmeatissue]

But it was Ron spouting off about his "integrity" all season long ever since the spying issue came up! Maybe he's got a different dictionary than the rest of us.

He was put in that position by Max, who accused him of lying when he said he didn't know about the dossier, then about the content of Alonso's emails.

And it has never been shown that he did know.

[F1boat]

They lawyer asked for the teams to be DQed and also the drivers as they were driving illegal cars, and all this without taking into account that this very season other drivers (guess the drivers :D ) kept their points when the cars were disqualified.

This is exactly asking for the title to be awarded to Hamilton.

Anyone who believes that Macca wants simple clarification is very naive.

[ioan]

He was put in that position by Max, who accused him of lying when he said he didn't know about the dossier, then about the content of Alonso's emails.

And it has never been shown that he did know.

Their were punished and didn't appeal, that's enough proof that they were guilty.

[passmeatissue]

Their were punished and didn't appeal, that's enough proof that they were guilty.

Different subject

[SGWilko]

This isn't about obscure rules.

It's only about one man's overinflated ego, a man that is a sore winner and an even worse loser. A man who's team didn't win a championship since 1999. The man who's team are spending hundreds of millions of their sponsors money and all they give them is a tarnished image of liars, cheaters and hypocrites! This is a desperate man who is bringing this sport-business down on its knees because of his personal deficiencies!
Ladies and gentlemen I give you RD, the man who's retirement would make the biggest difference to Formula 1's image.

All we hear, pretty much 99% of what we know about everything in F1 is from the media. The media (especially the press) are the worst liars and cheats of all. We read what they WANT us to read, knowing the opinions we are likely to formulate from their (dis)information.

I know for myself that I do not know if Ron was aware or not of the Ferrari info/emails/SMS etc. I don't know either if Flav knew about his impending dilemma.

WHat I do know, is that that is now 7 teams that have been involved in some form of cheating/IP theft scenario - Ferrari, McLaren, Renault, STR & Red Bull, Honda & SA and Midland/Spyker/Force India.

7 teams.. My god, can you not all see the entire sport is corrupt. So please, don't bleat on like a flock of sheep about Ron, because to single him out without 100% cast iron proof of your allegations, you become the hypocrytes, the liars and the ones with no integrity.

What it appears McLaren are seeking here IS a clarification on not only how the FIA police and enforce their regulations and rules, but also how the punishment is applied. Because at present, it appears the FIA uses a lucky dip policy, as consistency is not their strong point.

Now, turning to the LH and FA should also be banned from the WDC this year, have we all forgotten that the Head Moron of the FIA - Max Mosely, personally gave his assurance to the drivers they would get immunity. Do we all know the cause and effect of this, or are we just chosing to ignore the facts.

Lets leave the bile where it belongs, with the rest of the Succus Intericus just below the pyloric sphyncter.

[ioan]

Different subject

:laugh: That's all you got?! :rotflmao:

[ioan]

WHat I do know, is that that is now 7 teams that have been involved in some form of cheating/IP theft scenario - Ferrari, McLaren, Renault, STR & Red Bull, Honda & SA and Midland/Spyker/Force India.

7 teams.. My god, can you not all see the entire sport is corrupt. So please, don't bleat on like a flock of sheep about Ron, because to single him out without 100% cast iron proof of your allegations, you become the hypocrytes, the liars and the ones with no integrity.

There are only 3 teams that got classified info, not 7!

Throwing mud at the others in attempt to save your own integrity is what Ron did, and what his fans are doing. I call this pathetic.

[SGWilko]

There are only 3 teams that got classified info, not 7!

Throwing mud at the others in attempt to save your own integrity is what Ron did, and what his fans are doing. I call this pathetic.

Red Bull & STR are using each others IP, Spyker had blueprints of the STR designs for a part, but the blueprint had the RB branding on it.

Same IP scenario with Honda and SA. Those four, added to the three is seven.

[SGWilko]

Their were punished and didn't appeal, that's enough proof that they were guilty.

Well it is not really is it? I think hard evidence (conclusive proof) would be required to show guilt of the particular allegation. Sadly, it would appear the FIA know this, but they also know that McLaren have in the back of their minds that Max will possibly fabricate some ludicrous additional evidence and throw the badly written rule book at them.

I think that an independant legal team, unassociated with F1 should investigate the Ferrari, Toyota, Renault & McLaren situation. Perhaps then we might get some cast iron proof and truth. Dont lose any sleep that it might happen though, this is F1 after all.......

[F1boat]

I think that F1 has turned into very unfriendly to fans sport. :(

[ioan]

Red Bull & STR are using each others IP, Spyker had blueprints of the STR designs for a part, but the blueprint had the RB branding on it.

Same IP scenario with Honda and SA. Those four, added to the three is seven.

McLaren, Renault and Spyker had others IP in their possession illegally.

STR and SAF1 are teams that used cars that were built for them by RedBull and Honda.

Even a McLaren fan should see the difference between those cases! Or maybe not?! :s

[TL]

Throwing mud at the others in attempt to save your own integrity is what Ron did, and what his fans are doing. I call this pathetic.

wasn't it an Italian based team who started the mud throwing ?

[ioan]

Well it is not really is it? I think hard evidence (conclusive proof) would be required to show guilt of the particular allegation. Sadly, it would appear the FIA know this, but they also know that McLaren have in the back of their minds that Max will possibly fabricate some ludicrous additional evidence and throw the badly written rule book at them.

I think that an independant legal team, unassociated with F1 should investigate the Ferrari, Toyota, Renault & McLaren situation. Perhaps then we might get some cast iron proof and truth. Dont lose any sleep that it might happen though, this is F1 after all.......

If they were not guilty they would have appealed the WMSC decision, you can trust that.
No one get's called liar and thief and so on and no one parts ways with $ 100 millions if they know that they are not guilty.

The fact that they accepted the ruling is PROOF that they accepted the guilt, what other better proof you want?

[ioan]

wasn't it an Italian based team who started the mud throwing ?

No. It wasn't.

[555-04Q2]

wasn't it an Italian based team who started the mud throwing ?

Yes, Alfa Romeo :p :

[SGWilko]

McLaren, Renault and Spyker had others IP in their possession illegally.

STR and SAF1 are teams that used cars that were built for them by RedBull and Honda.

Even a McLaren fan should see the difference between those cases! Or maybe not?! :s

Ioan, IP is involved here, why is there ongoing arbitration on this subject if it is clearly legal? Even the FIA have no idea what is and is not allowed, there is no hope is there?

I am an F1 fan, historically, when I first started watching I was a thoroubred Williams fan because of Nigel Mansell. I am certainly no die hard McLaren fan.

[TL]

If they were not guilty they would have appealed the WMSC decision, you can trust that.
No one get's called liar and thief and so on and no one parts ways with $ 100 millions if they know that they are not guilty.

The fact that they accepted the ruling is PROOF that they accepted the guilt, what other better proof you want?

don't forget this already was the 2nd verdict !! at first McL got no punishment at all....someone at FIA wasn't happy with that result..."conjured" some "emails" out of his magic head....and voilà...totaly different verdict..

[SGWilko]

If they were not guilty they would have appealed the WMSC decision, you can trust that.
No one get's called liar and thief and so on and no one parts ways with $ 100 millions if they know that they are not guilty.

The fact that they accepted the ruling is PROOF that they accepted the guilt, what other better proof you want?

It just is not that simple though, is it? Lets see how Max deals with the Renault situation so we can make an informed judgement of whether or not he is impartial, or biased against McLaren.

What we have seen is that other teams have also been shown to have rivals docs in their possesion (that is all that can be conclusively proved in the McLaren case) (yes, I know "what about the phone calls and SMS messages" I hear you cry - well, you show me what they contained first - verbatim - then I will make judgement). So I think one team is being singled out. If they are not, why not punish Toyota or Spyker?

The whole thing smells worse than a Turkish Wrestlers jockstrap.

[SGWilko]

It just is not that simple though, is it? Lets see how Max deals with the Renault situation so we can make an informed judgement of whether or not he is impartial, or biased against McLaren.

What we have seen is that other teams have also been shown to have rivals docs in their possesion (that is all that can be conclusively proved in the McLaren case) (yes, I know "what about the phone calls and SMS messages" I hear you cry - well, you show me what they contained first - verbatim - then I will make judgement). So I think one team is being singled out. If they are not, why not punish Toyota or Spyker?

The whole thing smells worse than a Turkish Wrestlers jockstrap.

And of course, lets just remind ourselves how all this started. A Ferrari employee was it not. Currently untouched by the FIA (either Ferrari or Stepney).

Just like you can't quite grasp the burden of proof with McLaren, I can quite grasp why the Scuderia has got off scott free..................

[ioan]

...someone at FIA wasn't happy with that result..."conjured" some "emails" out of his magic head....and voilà...totaly different verdict..

You must be the most desperate McLaren fanatic out there, to come up with such "conjured" rubbish. :rolleyes:

[ioan]

And of course, lets just remind ourselves how all this started. A Ferrari employee was it not. Currently untouched by the FIA (either Ferrari or Stepney).



Next time someone steals the money you gave you wife/girlfriend to pay the phone bills you will have to go to jail, after all it was your money that was stolen, and there is no excuse to why your wife/girlfriend had possession of your money. :)

[ioan]

So when do we get that ruling over this cold matter?

[TL]

You must be the most desperate McLaren fanatic out there, to come up with such "conjured" rubbish. :rolleyes:

as it seems you know everything..who was it who brought the existance of these emails to FIA's attention in first place ??

[TL]

Next time someone steals the money you gave you wife/girlfriend to pay the phone bills you will have to go to jail, after all it was your money that was stolen, and there is no excuse to why your wife/girlfriend had possession of your money. :)

I don't get it why people keep using the word "stolen by McL"....while it was voluntary given to them....

[Hawkmoon]

I don't get it why people keep using the word "stolen by McL"....while it was voluntary given to them....

That would be because the receipt of stolen goods is the same as stealing them yourself.

And yes, the dossier was stolen because it belonged to Ferrari, not Stepney.

[SGWilko]

Next time someone steals the money you gave you wife/girlfriend to pay the phone bills you will have to go to jail, after all it was your money that was stolen, and there is no excuse to why your wife/girlfriend had possession of your money. :)

This needs tidying up, because you do not understand the concept. Stepney should NOT have given away info to a rival team. If his contract stated he could, then that is a different matter.

If I give money to the 'trouble and strife' (reluctantly, of course, hasn't she already got enough shoes?!) I am entitled to do so. I nor she have signed a contract that does not permit such behaviour. If that money then gets stolen, I fully expect the thief to be punished. Now, in the Ferrari McLaren case, when exactly did McLaren steal the Ferrari info? I can say that a rogue employee received stolen goods, but he did not steal them. And I think there was a $100M fine for this infringement and a removal from the WCC........... Next, Daniel will be back on line asking if can come and burgle my house. Both your analagies are incorrect.

In allowing (twice, as there is previous form a la Toyota) Ferrari have been allowed to bring the sport into disrepute by given away their confidential info. If they get a whacking great fine, they will probably make darn sure it does not happen again, ever.

[Valve Bounce]

WHat I do know, is that that is now 7 teams that have been involved in some form of cheating/IP theft scenario - Ferrari, McLaren, Renault, STR & Red Bull, Honda & SA and Midland/Spyker/Force India.

.

That's a bit rough!! :eek:
How did Honda and Red Bull cheat? I'm missing something here :(

[tinchote]

(yes, I know "what about the phone calls and SMS messages" I hear you cry - well, you show me what they contained first - verbatim - then I will make judgement). So I think one team is being singled out. If they are not, why not punish Toyota or Spyker?


It is certain (or at least believable) that the messages contained significant information, because otherwise, why would they lie about them? Coughlan said that he had barely had contact with Stepney, and that he wen to Barcelona to tell him to stop contacting him (yes, they want us to believe that a person flew to a different country just to tell someone not to contact him). The information about the phone calls and the text messages shows that Coughlan was lying, and then one has the right to presume that the thing was way bigger than it was presented.

I think that at least partly the reason that McLaren has been punished this season is their incredible tendency to submit outrageous lies in writing. They were not punished initially because "no one knew" about Coughlan; and then a month later we learn " well, a few knew about it". Things like that won't make a court very lenient. At Hungary, they said that they were just waiting for empty track for FA, when there was only one car on the track. Now they say that they are spending money and time on an appeal "just to clarify the rules". The lies never end.

On the other hand, I'm not aware of Toyota or Spyker lying to the authorities. McLaren is not being singled out: they single out themselves.

[SGWilko]

That's a bit rough!! :eek:
How did Honda and Red Bull cheat? I'm missing something here :(

It's not intended to be rough Valve. But there is ongoing arbitration with Spyker (who are they?) on this, and the fact that STR can enter a car that they have not had to spent gazillions on designing etc. This becomes an IP issue, which is loosely related to the issue.

Is it legal to use another teams IP, and if not is using it 'cheating'?

Remember, Prodrive will be absent next year because of this, even though the FIA suggested during the 12 team tender process that all will be tickety boo.

It is a sad situation for a multitude of reasons. Has the FIA got a clue/grip. Can anything be done to start afresh with new management so to speak?

[Valve Bounce]

It's not intended to be rough Valve. But there is ongoing arbitration with Spyker (who are they?) on this, and the fact that STR can enter a car that they have not had to spent gazillions on designing etc. This becomes an IP issue, which is loosely related to the issue.

Is it legal to use another teams IP, and if not is using it 'cheating'?

Remember, Prodrive will be absent next year because of this, even though the FIA suggested during the 12 team tender process that all will be tickety boo.

It is a sad situation for a multitude of reasons. Has the FIA got a clue/grip. Can anything be done to start afresh with new management so to speak?

OK!! so who's IP did Red Bull use, or Honda for that matter? :confused:

[TL]

That would be because the receipt of stolen goods is the same as stealing them yourself.

And yes, the dossier was stolen because it belonged to Ferrari, not Stepney.

is that so ? So when I get a present from a friend one day....and a couple of weeks later it's confirmed those goods where stolen by him I get the same punishment like my friend who was the actual thief ?

and Stepney "belonged" to Ferrari..as he signed a contract with them...so it's Ferrari duty to take better care of there so called "top secret" files not ?

[ioan]

as it seems you know everything..who was it who brought the existance of these emails to FIA's attention in first place ??

Alonso, through Bernie!

[SGWilko]

OK!! so who's IP did Red Bull use, or Honda for that matter? :confused:

A seperate 'holding company' set up specifically for that purpose.

The bone of contention (and a possible cheat to circumvent the rules) is whether that is permitted in the current Concorde Agmt.

Honest Valve, there is method to my madness.......

[ioan]

That's a bit rough!! :eek:
How did Honda and Red Bull cheat? I'm missing something here :(

There is nothing to understand Valve.
It's just McLaren fans trying to make their fave team look better by throwing mud to others, that's the same method used by Ron Dennis when they were caught cheating and lying in the summer.

[TL]

Alonso, through Bernie!

and you find it normal that someone from one party involved in this case gets in touch with people of the other party and tells them if they can get him proof in any way they will get immunity ?

[SGWilko]

There is nothing to understand Valve.
It's just McLaren fans trying to make their fave team look better by throwing mud to others, that's the same method used by Ron Dennis when they were caught cheating and lying in the summer.

Can I refer you here....



A seperate 'holding company' set up specifically for that purpose.

The bone of contention (and a possible cheat to circumvent the rules) is whether that is permitted in the current Concorde Agmt.

Honest Valve, there is method to my madness.......

[ioan]

is that so ? So when I get a present from a friend one day....and a couple of weeks later it's confirmed those goods where stolen by him I get the same punishment like my friend who was the actual thief ?

If your friend was working for you (you had a binding contract with him in a field that happenes to be the one where the present comes) than the answer is yes!


and Stepney "belonged" to Ferrari..as he signed a contract with them...so it's Ferrari duty to take better care of there so called "top secret" files not ?

Ferrari are taking care of that, and Stepney will likely spend some time in jail for what he did.

And all this was discussed and explained to you already in other threads before, the fact that you seem to not understand how it works can't be helped any further than it was done in the original "Stepneygate" thread.
Before turning this thread into a new "Stepneygate" thread I suggest you to take your time and study the previous threads where the case was discussed.

Let's go back to the "cold fuel" matter at hand now.

When will they give us an answer to this circus?

[Hawkmoon]

is that so ? So when I get a present from a friend one day....and a couple of weeks later it's confirmed those goods where stolen by him I get the same punishment like my friend who was the actual thief ?

and Stepney "belonged" to Ferrari..as he signed a contract with them...so it's Ferrari duty to take better care of there so called "top secret" files not ?

If you don't report the theft when you discover that they're stolen, then yes, you are in a similar situation to the actual thief.

The fact that Stepney was a Ferrari employee doesn't change the fact that he stole Ferrari IP and gave it to McLaren.

[TL]

If your friend was working for you (you had a binding contract with him in a field that happenes to be the one where the present comes) than the answer is yes!



Ferrari are taking care of that, and Stepney will likely spend some time in jail for what he did.

In this case my friend would have been working for another company no ?

and yes I know..but why wasn't McL just allowed to do the same..and have them punish only the people involved ?

[ioan]

In this case my friend would have been working for another company no ?

Oups I was talking about the Coughlan Mclaren relation, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, my bad.


and yes I know..but why wasn't McL just allowed to do the same..and have them punish only the people involved ?

McLaren can take Cughlan to the court, no one is stopping them doing that.
However given that Coughlan showed the data to several senior McLaren team members as well as the drivers who were requesting Ferrari information from him, the team gained an illegal advantage and had to be punished too.

[ArrowsFA1]

Alonso, through Bernie!
So what was all this about Alonso threatening Ron with incriminating info relating to Spygate if he didn't get his way? A threat he later tried to withdraw. By then Ron had informed Max Mosley of Alonso's threat and the implication there was info - that RD was not previously aware of - relevant to the investigation. That was "the new evidence" that led to McLaren being found guilty.

Obviously that doesn't fit with the picture of Ron Dennis some would like us to believe :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Obviously that doesn't fit with the picture of Ron Dennis some would like us to believe :rolleyes:

Depends on the RD picture each has.

[markabilly]

The final battle will come down to why the McLaren drivers were offered imdemnity. Was this one ay of rigging a championship to go down to the wire to gain more viewers?

I must say the whole thing has left a very bitter taste in my mouth.


Bernie pretty much said that was necessary to save the season but that he "advocated" (not "conspired"-hahahaha) for it......

anyway, what is interesting, is the Public Relations fallout over the cold fuel appeal.

One might have thought the fine and so forth would be something of a PR slap to Mac and Mercedes, but seemed to generate as much or more sympathy for MAc and outrage against the FIA

However, this "hypocrisy" seems to have really come back against Mac in terms of backlash in many places where I have looked on the web. As in really big time :eek:

[OTA]

So RD says that FA made a threat to him and we are obliged to beleive him. It just doesn't work that way.
And that threat was what make RD aware of the fact that the Ferrari dossier was going round Woking, yeah right. RD knew as soon as Aus, may be even before, that they were getting info from Ferrari.(Another thing would be to investigate all the info teams have acces to; may be we'll find out that there is lots of info running around that could be seen as "confidential".) Nothing unusual in a fairly close group, where engineers and other switch teams quite frequently).

In other words, is there evidence that FA has ever threated RD. Sorry, but the only evidence I have seen of the matter is the view of 1 of the parties. Not enough in any court of law, specially when the other party involved has said that RD version is not what really happen. So either we get to know the whole story( which probably never happened) or we should respect the views of both, but acknoledge that there is a lot of grey smoke in that incident.

And about the cold fuel, well I just think that an incident of such depth should be settle on race day, 1 month and a half after doesn't seem right.

Cheers
David

[Valve Bounce]

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_feature_item.php
Long article but interesting; make sure you read page 3.

[markabilly]

Back to cold fuel, all the talk is about hypocrisy, and dumping on Mac, but what about the substantive evidence, if any, presented at the hearing?

When the chief evidence comes from a group that says its testing was not reliable...oh well.....
I can not find a word about that which was presented or discussed at the hearing.........

[ioan]

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_feature_item.php
Long article but interesting; make sure you read page 3.

There's no page 3:


PHP/Database Error encountered - Unable to generate page
ERROR - No article id value passed to script

[ArrowsFA1]

So RD says that FA made a threat to him and we are obliged to beleive him. It just doesn't work that way.
A fair point. So much has been reportedly said, denied, spun into something that wasn't said or whatever. The basis of me saying that Alonso threatened RD comes from this report (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62548) which itself is reporting what was said during the FIA hearing.

[ioan]

This is looking very very bad:



A news wire is quoting an insider that Hamilton has been awarded the WDC. No statement being released while senior FIA members are reportedly on an emergency conference call on how to void the decision.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A29164052

[OTA]

Ok Arrows, so we know again RD view of the incident. Where's Fernando's? The only thing I have heard from him is that the story is not quite as that.
We know, and I think it's a fact, that FA was upset. Pretty normal specially after what had happened the day before. But the rest is something we just know one side.

Another thing that RD never really says. What's it that FA demands that goes against team policy? To give LH an inferior car, to have a choice over strategies, to have first choice when new parts arrive, to have privacy over his telemetry, or what is it exactly because it's far from clear and each thing is very different.
If he wanted to give LH an inferior car, then there's no doubt that FA is wrong and unsporting. If what he wanted is choice over strategies then there's a lot more to discuss, and we could go forever, but the fact remains that we have no idea(at least I don't) of what is the so called preferential treatment FA demanded that was against the integrity of the Mac organization.

Cheers
David

[SparkyKate]

I am so sick of hearing about this ridiculous farse...the FIA should dock the teams £10grand for every supposed infraction and be done with it, that is after all what happened with Hamilton when he had a tyre infraction and that gave him alot more of an advantage then a maybe/maybe not slight drop in fuel temp. Stupid meaningless little things like this are pathetic. As far as i can see there is a president already set...£10,000 for any minor infraction.

[passmeatissue]

This is looking very very bad:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A29164052

The rumour also says that McLaren have declined the title.

So you may be OK, just have to put a little more effort into your RD-bashing.

[ArrowsFA1]

This is looking very very bad:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A29164052
A message posted on the BBC's 606 board saying "A news wire is quoting an insider" is unfortunately typical of the kind of stuff we've seen this year. Still, it's found its way around the internet so it must be true :p

[ioan]

The rumour also says that McLaren have declined the title.

So you may be OK, just have to put a little more effort into your RD-bashing.

If you want to sing odes to RD than you're free to do it. But give me a brake with your attacks.

[ioan]

A message posted on the BBC's 606 board saying "A news wire is quoting an insider" is unfortunately typical of the kind of stuff we've seen this year. Still, it's found its way around the internet so it must be true :p

I certainly hope it isn't , or otherwise we might get an appeal and court decision every week, maybe even have 2008 WDC before the one for 2007 is known! ;)

[SGWilko]

The rumour also says that McLaren have declined the title.

So you may be OK, just have to put a little more effort into your RD-bashing.

This was always about rule clarification. The FIA have excelled themselves this year at portraying themselves as bungling bafoons.

A lawyer will point to statute, and past precedent. I do not see how referring to this year as precedent is of particular benefit because, as I just stated, the FIA have demonstrated a lack of control.

If this ruling is true, then McLaren should be respected for refusing the title. We know who won it, we saw with our own eyes.

What we could not see, was the cool fuel saga, and how Charlie Farley and his team of timultuous twits were unable to police their own rules.

This cannot be allowed to continue. Which team in their right mind would ever trust the FIA again (if they actually trust them now)?

If you set a precedent, you must stand by it. That is why Renaualt are in (quite possibly) a very tight spot, because of the FIA precedent.

Lets just wait for some official news. Then wait for that to change, because of Bernie............ then a new ruling blah blah blah.

[SGWilko]

But give me a brake with your attacks.

What is good for the Goose Ioan....

You constantly harp on about McLaren fans and mud slinging........ Don't become a hypocrite in your own rite............

[markabilly]

And dudes, i keep telling you I am doing my very best to be so crazy and out of touch with reality, bein the paranoid schizo that I am, but every time, along comes the FIA and out does me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(but this is too much non-sense to be true....NO WAY!!!!)

[F1boat]

UNOFFICIAL:
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=33411

[F1boat]

And dudes, i keep telling you I am doing my very best to be so crazy and out of touch with reality, bein the paranoid schizo that I am, but every time, along comes the FIA and out does me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(but this is too much non-sense to be true....NO WAY!!!!)

IMO it is not true, because it was declared a few hours ago and still it is not confirmed.

[markabilly]

IMO it is not true, because it was declared a few hours ago and still it is not confirmed.
After thinking about, it would be better if it were true...benie would be happy, more headline news for F1, more of stuff for us to talk about ....otherwise life is going to become real boring, as in snooze city...nothing to fuss over..................

[F1boat]

I don't know how could you be so cruel to Kimi... :(

[SGWilko]

UNOFFICIAL:
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=33411

Well, I still hope the FIA can muster up enough brain cells between them to actually clarify this rule.

Won't hold my breath though.

I wonder if Max still sends a Chrimbo card to Ayrton................. ;)

[markabilly]

I don't know how could you be so cruel to Kimi... :(
With Iceman, nothing bothers him, especially this kind of err err "stuff" :D

Probably off partying somewhere, and does not even know what day it is.....

[SGWilko]

I don't know if this site is worth the bandwidth it's written on, but here.......... http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/157217-0/fuel_appeal_adjourned_and_moved_back_to_paris.html

[ioan]

They are taking their time, no question about that! :s

[ArrowsFA1]

Worse than a blummin' soap opera :rolleyes: :p

[F1boat]

I am really questioning whether I should continue to follow F1.

[SGWilko]

Worse than a blummin' soap opera :rolleyes: :p

Hold it, I thought that is exactly what Bernie & Max hed dragged F1 down to - a soap opera. :down:

[F1boat]

Hold it, I thought that is exactly what Bernie & Max hed dragged F1 down to - a soap opera. :down:

More like a cheap horror, if you ask me. Just when you though that the hero (Kimi) has beaten the ugly Ron Kruegger, the monster tries to ruin it all.
In any case, right now I'm feeling terror and revulsion.

[F1boat]

what happened to this ****** appeal?! I AM DISGUSTED!

[ioan]

what happened to this ****** appeal?! I AM DISGUSTED!

Maybe they forgot about it, and also forgot telling us not to wait a result.

[F1boat]

You know how much emotion a human being, who is fan, is giving about this sh*t and all because McLaren SUCKS badly. So I really wonder, whatever happens, who spending so much emotion about this ridiculous sport. In NASCAR they might be fixing things, but heck, it is cool for fans. This simply SUCKS!

[passmeatissue]

Well it makes sense to me. The independent lawyers looked at the written rules and the data, found they had to penalise BMW and Williams, and looking at precedent they had to promote Hammy.

RD was going to decline the championship, which would have made him look quite sporting.

Max obviously is not going to have that, and has taken the judges back to Paris, where he can work on them in the basement.

Their revised judgement will be announced this evening, though they may not be able to appear in person :D

[F1boat]

What is really annoying is that in the IRL Indy Car series we had a very entertaining, very close season, just like in "Formula 1", but there weren't any ridiculous appeals, the teams didn't try to steal from each other and had the balls to congratulate the guys who bested them.

[nightingalecars]

WOW! they are really dragging this appeal on arn't they!! Been checking all the formula 1 websites all day expecting an outcome and still nothing!!!!

[F1boat]

I think that they will make Hamilton champion, or they should have announced the decision already
Bye, bye F-1.

[TMorel]

Could Ron actually turn the championship down, even if he wanted to?

Didn't Schumi get the team a $1mil fine for pushing Barrichello onto the top step after Austria, imagine the fine for trying to give a different teams driver the big trophy (probably enough to put the sport into disrepute and get a 12month ban)

[jas123f1]

I think that they will make Hamilton champion, or they should have announced the decision already
Bye, bye F-1.

Yes - one can start to wonder what's going on there behind the doors.
Are they fighting or sleeping? Whatever it is so hopefully they doesn't make that mistake that they take from Kimi and Ferrari their well deserved title.
It should be the BIGGEST FIA mistake for ever. People would in all future say that McLaren that paid 100 000000dollar for it (I too) .. :)

[passmeatissue]

Pitpass are quoting "very good source" as saying McLaren have lost.

Still unofficial though

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=33411

[ioan]

I can't access the pitpass site for some reasons.

[Easy Drifter]

They are probably trying to figure out how to get out of this mess without looking like complete morons. Considering most decisions made by the FIA that is going to take some doing.
The simple way, and there is precedent. is to disqualify the cars but leave the driver positions and points alone. Nobody is happy but it solves the problem.
They can admit their temperature taking methods are inadequate but back to the moron stage.

[ioan]

While we wait for some kind of results, we could however discuss about this Court of Appeal (COA).

Who are they? (I believe that it is the FIA's COA and not some civil COA)
What do they know about motorsports in general, and F1 in particular?
What exactly are their possibilities in this case?
Can they decide the outcome of the race or only if the stewards were right to say that nothing can be proved?
Why are McLaren seeking a rule clarification at the COA instead of the FIA?

To me their role isn't very clear.

[jas123f1]

Pitpass are quoting "very good source" as saying McLaren have lost.

Still unofficial though

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=33411

ok - and thanks - i hope they have the right info.

[F1boat]

ok - and thanks - i hope they have the right info.
too old.

[GP-M3]

Yeah, I hope that is correct, but this wait has me a bit worried. It will really hurt F1 if they rip the title in this way. Every survey, board, and word I've heard overwhelimgly wants Kimi to keep the title. That would be a fair end to this season.

I've got the last race recorded, and I've been waiting for the official word on this stupid appeal to watch it again. I'll erase it immediatly if this appeal is won by the hypocrites.

[markabilly]

What time in London? About 6.30 pm?

Still no word---geeasasa...could it really be true that they are having a big debate over this?

No no no way....but I guess so..............

[F1boat]

Yeah, I hope that is correct, but this wait has me a bit worried. It will really hurt F1 if they rip the title in this way. Every survey, board, and word I've heard overwhelimgly wants Kimi to keep the title. That would be a fair end to this season.

I've got the last race recorded, and I've been waiting for the official word on this stupid appeal to watch it again. I'll erase it immediatly if this appeal is won by the hypocrites.

I'll erase everything connected with F1 and will become a NASCAR follower.

[DonJippo]

While we wait for some kind of results, we could however discuss about this Court of Appeal (COA).

Who are they? (I believe that it is the FIA's COA and not some civil COA)
What do they know about motorsports in general, and F1 in particular?
What exactly are their possibilities in this case?
Can they decide the outcome of the race or only if the stewards were right to say that nothing can be proved?
Why are McLaren seeking a rule clarification at the COA instead of the FIA?

To me their role isn't very clear.

Here you go http://www.fia.com/thefia/Court_of_appeal/index.html

[Hondo]

As far as I'm concerned, Kimi deserves the title by virture of having the most wins. he'll keep the title.

[ioan]

Here you go http://www.fia.com/thefia/Court_of_appeal/index.html

Thanks!

[Mauri A]

It´s all over! Kimi the Champion!!!!

[markabilly]

let us see it 8,47 pm in france and 7.47 pm in london

[markabilly]

It´s all over! Kimi the Champion!!!!
You mean that Kimi did not have it taken away because some other teams were not "disqualified"??

Source??

[GP-M3]

GrandPrix.com is claiming that the FIA are trying to bury the story (from the Saturday news editions - like politicians do) when they have bad news, and the bad news according to him, is that:

"The outcome of the FIA International Court of Appeal is just such a story. The court has ruled that the appeal was inadmissable."

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19871.html

So, this would seem to be good news to most of us here... Let's wait for the official announcment though...

[gshevlin]

This another duck-and-weave by the FIA, who have simply ruled that "the appeal is inadmissible", which relieves the panel of the responsibility of having to rule on the evidence presented.

[F1boat]

At last FIA to do something sensible.

[SparkyKate]

Finally! Common sense prevails!!

Kimi is OFFICIALLY champion!!!

About bloody time...any guesses as to what the next problem will be??

[jas123f1]

Court of Appeal did the right ting - at last..

Nice!! Congratulations to Kimi and whole Ferrari team whom really deserves the title – hopefully all b*** s*** is behind us now and the racing can start without any spy- or other scandals next season. :)

[markabilly]

This another duck-and-weave by the FIA, who have simply ruled that "the appeal is inadmissible", which relieves the panel of the responsibility of having to rule on the evidence presented.
No, it means Mac failed to do it right...I guess they still all choked up @ the track as in "choking" in keeping with fine tradition established by their number one driver........ :D

Would have made no difference as to whether they went forward or not because in the Court of Appeals statement where it said the stewards concluded that they did not accurately measure the temperature of the on board fuel..............as well as the ambient temperature

Now how can you say the temp of on board fuel being placed in the car was illegal when you admit that the temperature measurement of the fuel itself was inaccurate?

You can not.

Of course, they could have pointed out how stupid it is in the first place to have a relatively simple (but unnecessary as dicussed above) rule and people who can not measure temperature accurately.......... :eek:

Poor benie, stuck with iceman------ I wonder how well LH will now float with his new buyers.....

[djparky]

At last FIA to do something sensible.

amen to that- I'm no Ferrari fan but am pleased that Kimi became world champion this year

[GP-M3]

Finally some closure to the season. Well done FIA, bad sportsmanship Mac, Congrats to Kimi!!

[F1boat]

Forza Kimi! Forza Ferrari!

[wmcot]

now Can We Please Move On To 2008??????

[ioan]

now Can We Please Move On To 2008??????

6th December first!

[spiritone]

Suprise!suprise! FIA rules maclaren appeal inadmissable. Did anybody really expect a ruling against ferrari?

Now all thats left is how figure out how not to penalize Renault.

[markabilly]

Finally! Common sense prevails!!

Kimi is OFFICIALLY champion!!!

About bloody time...any guesses as to what the next problem will be??
Pretty easy...no need to guess..it is called Renault and its floppies.... :rolleyes:

[passmeatissue]

Followed the next day by the hearing of the inspection of the 2008 McLaren... :eek:

[markabilly]

Really what could you expect?

Mac called for a strict enforcement of the rules. The rules for once were strictly enforced.

Mac did not lodge a protest against the race result as clearly required by the rules, then demanded the disqualification and points be given to their drivers as though they had followed the rules and properly protested the result. Meanwhile Mercedes and the rest of the crew was saying we are not protesting the result, we only want a clarification of the temperature rule.

Then in the hearing, their lawyer does exactly that: protest the result and argue strict enforcement when under strict enforcement of the rules, they failed to properl to lay the groundwork for such a protest, and do what Mac with the rest of its crew, were saying they were not doing, protesting the result without having taken formal steps to do so.

Under strict enforcement of the rules, the first question must be has the party properly protested who seeks relief? If the answer is NO, then that ends it.

If they wanted their protest, they should have stepped up to the plate and done it like men, instead of trying to go through the back door like thieves in the night.

Even so, when the temperature measurment can not be said to be accurate as to the fuel going on board, then there really is not much to fuss about.

[AJP]

Suprise!suprise! FIA rules maclaren appeal inadmissable. Did anybody really expect a ruling against ferrari?

Now all thats left is how figure out how not to penalize Renault.

I thought this was to penalise BMW and Williams for using illegal fuel.

[F1boat]

Really what could you expect?

Mac called for a strict enforcement of the rules. The rules for once were strictly enforced.

Mac did not lodge a protest against the race result as clearly required by the rules, then demanded the disqualification and points be given to their drivers as though they had followed the rules and properly protested the result. Meanwhile Mercedes and the rest of the crew was saying we are not protesting the result, we only want a clarification of the temperature rule.

Then in the hearing, their lawyer does exactly that: protest the result and argue strict enforcement when under strict enforcement of the rules, they failed to properl to lay the groundwork for such a protest, and do what Mac with the rest of its crew, were saying they were not doing, protesting the result without having taken formal steps to do so.

Under strict enforcement of the rules, the first question must be has the party properly protested who seeks relief? If the answer is NO, then that ends it.

If they wanted their protest, they should have stepped up to the plate and done it like men, instead of trying to go through the back door like thieves in the night.

Even so, when the temperature measurment can not be said to be accurate as to the fuel going on board, then there really is not much to fuss about.
Great post!

[F1boat]

It was about the ego of Ron Dennis.

[Valve Bounce]

Really what could you expect?

.

Kool aid all round please!! :up: :beer:

[Hawkmoon]

Here's Williams' take on the matter:

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=33416

Somewhat ironic that McLaren were bleating on about rules not being followed yet the reason for their appeal being rejected was that they themselves didn't follow the rules concerning protesting a race result. :D

[wmcot]

How hard can it be to install a fuel temperature sensor in the fuel cell of a car? Connect it to the ECU and add a couple of lines of code and you don't have a problem anymore!

The again, as I keep repeating, common sense has little to do with F1!

[Valve Bounce]

Having been involved in Materials testing for much of my engineering career, including despatch of Asphaltic concrete(Bitumen to Poms), and soil tests which include moisture content determinations, I am fully in tune with temperature readings and specifications.

The FIA did not have anything even close to what I would consider adequate to meet the specifications and requirements of an Asphalt batching plant, or even taking density tests on a construction site, let alone a billion dollar industry (F1 racing).

Then there is the issue of McLaren's appeal. In yachting, there are certain protocols that have to be met in lodging a protest in a race - there is a time limit, and certain other protocols (like informing other yachts immediately of your intent to protest). These rules are clearly spelled out in the Rules under which races are held. If you don't follow these protocols, which apply to any races from club dinghy races to the Admirals Cup, then your protest is invalid.

What the hell is wrong with the whole FIA and F1 organisations that they cannot make their rules and protocols and penalties crystal clear? Then you have the principals of the sport like Bernie and max trying to influence the outcome of these hearings.

How stupid is that?

[truefan72]

I thought this was to penalise BMW and Williams for using illegal fuel.

of course that takes a back seat to sticking it to RD.

Even though I don't want to see the results of the WDC changed,
I think the 1983 situation with Rosberg and Lauda would have seen them dock the points from the 3 teams and from their WCC standings, while not penalizing the drivers for their actual race performance.

Trust me, if it was Ferrari in the same situation, all hell would have broken loose over at the FIA and surely their claim would not have been deemed inadmissable.

in the fIA's opinion, who exactly would have had the authority to launch the complaint?

and furthermore, do they accept the fact that 3 cars used fuel that was cooler than the allowable tolerance?
ergo what is the exact penalty for that?
I guess nothing as long as it doesn't bother ferrari.

[Ari]

Has nothing to do with Ferrari.

There were too many outside circumstances which may have effected the fuel temperatures. Even immediately after fuel temperature testing it was written into the reports that they were unsure how accurate the tests were.

In court there is a ruling that if there is any doubt you cannot find guilty. This ruling is effectively based on that.

[tinchote]

I'm waiting for RD or Martin Witmarsh to appear on the record saying that they are satisfied. After all, they did all this to obtain a "clarification of the rules", didn't they? ;) :p :

[Valve Bounce]

I'm waiting for RD or Martin Witmarsh to appear on the record saying that they are satisfied. After all, they did all this to obtain a "clarification of the rules", didn't they? ;) :p :


May I speak on their behalf? "I'm satisfied!!" :p :

[F1boat]

Here's Williams' take on the matter:

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=33416

Somewhat ironic that McLaren were bleating on about rules not being followed yet the reason for their appeal being rejected was that they themselves didn't follow the rules concerning protesting a race result. :D

I am very, very happy that they failed. Evil lost yesterday and more, it was caught in its own web, it was humiliated. The good guy (Kimi), won. This is most important.

[TL]

In court there is a ruling that if there is any doubt you cannot find guilty. This ruling is effectively based on that.

I wished they based that ruling on every case this season....something FIA did not !

[passmeatissue]

I am very, very happy that they failed. Evil lost yesterday and more, it was caught in its own web, it was humiliated. The good guy (Kimi), won. This is most important.

Evil? This is a sporting competition, not Sauron vs Gandalf.

McLaren did not protest because they did not want to change the result. They appealed, having been told that they could by the Chief Steward, in order to have it on record that the fuel temperatures of three cars ahead of Hammy were illegal. Ron's objective was to have the championship awarded, and then decline it. This would have stuck it to Ferrari and Max, but by application of the rules, as part of the sport.

It was ruled against them, there was a winner and a loser, as an outcome of a sporting competition. McLaren was Senna's team, for goodness' sake.

[ioan]

Ron's objective was to have the championship awarded, and then decline it.
:eek:

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

One of the best jokes I've ever heard. :laugh:

Now seriously, where's the proof to that?!

[ioan]

People who get so involved that they lose sight of this need to get a real life, IMO. McLaren was Senna's team, for goodness' sake.

Careful that's personal attack towards a forum member!

[ioan]

Trust me, if it was Ferrari in the same situation, all hell would have broken loose over at the FIA and surely their claim would not have been deemed inadmissable.

You bet, cause Ferrari would have followed the right procedure in order no to have their case dismissed. :p :

McLaren turned themselves into the laughing stock of F1! :D

[jas123f1]

It's time to celebrate Kimi and Ferrari :) ...

(it's not a video but I like it because it's showing (especially in the second half of it) the great feeling they have in Ferrari team ...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=JIB2o2wxFRw&feature=related

[ArrowsFA1]

No real suprise that the FIA threw out the appeal on a technicality. It's a neat way of sidestepping a difficult decision which their own rules created.

McLaren have repeated (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63995) their wish for the fuel temperature issue to be clarified and resolved, and their stance has been supported (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64016) by Mario Theissen. Let's hope that is done before next season.

Sadly Ferrari continue (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63996) to make the kind of statements that have done themselves no favours during the course of this season.

Let's hope the FIA's inspection of the 2008 McLaren will draw a line under what has been a poisonous season in many respects.

[passmeatissue]

:eek:

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

One of the best jokes I've ever heard. :laugh:

Now seriously, where's the proof to that?!

It's not for everyone else to educate you about F1 and bring you the content of F1 news websites on a plate. If you want to challenge a post, it's for you to show some evidence that the truth is something else.

[Valve Bounce]

Careful that's personal attack towards a forum member!

I doubt Senna was ever a member of our forum ioan; you should keep abreast of history, so to speak. :p :

[ioan]

It's not for everyone else to educate you about F1 and bring you the content of F1 news websites on a plate. If you want to challenge a post, it's for you to show some evidence that the truth is something else.

Statement: "I can walk on water!"
Now, if you have doubts about this than please prove that it isn't true, otherwise you have to agree that it is true, and there is no need for me to prove my statement, according to your logic! :rolleyes:

As for the education part, you better stop insulting others.

[ioan]

Sadly Ferrari continue (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63996) to make the kind of statements that have done themselves no favours during the course of this season.

And as I supposed some will continue throwing mud at Ferrari in an attempt to make their favorite bunch of "hypocrites devoid of any integrity" look better. :rolleyes:

[passmeatissue]

Careful that's personal attack towards a forum member!

I'm sure the mods will be glad to have your help ioan, to be informed that "people" is specific. There's a vacancy for a mod on Atlas F1 forum, had you thought about applying? :laugh: . There are some great posts there about the cheets, liers and hippocrites at McLaren, you'd be very welcome.

Meanwhile I think I'll rely on Pino and Mark for any guidance, thanks.

Sadly Ferrari continue (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63996) to make the kind of statements that have done themselves no favours during the course of this season.

Give it a rest.

[passmeatissue]

continue[/URL] to make the kind of statements that have done themselves no favours during the course of this season.

Let's hope the FIA's inspection of the 2008 McLaren will draw a line under what has been a poisonous season in many respects.

I agree, Williams and BMW expressed their satisfaction without bitterness, Todt couldn't resist adding "desperate" to his comment. I'm hoping Domenicali is a more sporting character, not too influenced by Montezemolo.

I'm still nervous about the 2008 McLaren hearing. I feel Max will push it to the limit or beyond. Also I notice that he has kept quiet about Renault so far, no outrage or threats like I remember before McLaren's.

[pino]

Give it a rest.

That's the advice I am giving to both ioan and passmeatissue...

[Bagwan]

I agree, Williams and BMW expressed their satisfaction without bitterness, Todt couldn't resist adding "desperate" to his comment. I'm hoping Domenicali is a more sporting character, not too influenced by Montezemolo.

I'm still nervous about the 2008 McLaren hearing. I feel Max will push it to the limit or beyond. Also I notice that he has kept quiet about Renault so far, no outrage or threats like I remember before McLaren's.

There have been no attacks on the FIA regarding apparent bias towards Ferrari , from former world champions , to refute .

[Bagwan]

That's the advice I am giving to both ioan and passmeatissue...

Now , hold on there , Pino .
You'll notice that Tam was reacting to a post by Arrows , not either of the 2 you are warning .

It's a debate , and it's not quite out of hand just yet .
It'll be ok .

Be nice , kids .

[markabilly]

Some of you guys are sounding like Andrew Davies over at Planet F1...and the headline "Maclaren baffled by FIA ruling". If you read what the Mac statement actually says, it is we hope the rules are clarified.

No mention of the fact that despite this being their apparent public position, their lawyer attempted to turn it into an appeal of the race result, seek the DQ of cars and drivers, to set the stage for a new WDC.

Perhaps he was just another "rogue employee", out there acting all on his own, without an ounce of human decency.....and without any authority from his client and without their knowledge..... :rolleyes: And just where does in this hearing, Ron Deniss jump up and say,"oh no that is not what we want, we only want to know exactly what the rules will be in the future"?

Opps caught with the hand in the cookie jar..... :eek:

I wonder if "the rule clarification only request" was even discussed by Mclaren at the hearing? I have seen no quotes where their lawyer disavowed anything such as DQ, and only wanted the court to clarify proper procedures for testing temperature and how that is to be handled in the future.

In any event, given that an "appeal" of the race result was being made at the hearing by them, and not a "rule clarification" request at the hearing, having failed to follow proper procedure, the FIA did what Mclaren requested.....follow the rules....


And just why did Mclaren try to backdoor their appeal? Incompetence or dishonesty. Either they knew what they were doing, and wanted to avoid the bad PR build up by trying to sneak it in through the back door just like thieves in the night--which is apparently what everyone seemed to suspect, or they were just too dumb to know better.

Everyone else should say, just give it a rest Mclaren, we are tired of the hypocrisy. Mac just needs to be drinking the Kool aid, but not expecting everyone else is drinking it as well.... :D

[markabilly]

Hamilton: Changing the result was not the purpose of our appeal.

Then what is all the fuss about when the "appeal" was rejected?

There are other ways such as wroking through changing the tech rules, per the "flexing floors", and so forth, to clarify the rules. What hypocrisy!!

[ioan]

And just why did Mclaren try to backdoor their appeal? Incompetence or dishonesty.

Until the start of the season I would have gone with dishonesty, but now I have to say it's both dishonesty and incompetence.

I was wondering one of this days where is Mansour Ojjeh hiding? After all he owns as much of McLaren as Ron does, still he prefers to keep quite and away from the team at this moment.

[F1boat]

Evil? This is a sporting competition, not Sauron vs Gandalf.

McLaren did not protest because they did not want to change the result. They appealed, having been told that they could by the Chief Steward, in order to have it on record that the fuel temperatures of three cars ahead of Hammy were illegal. Ron's objective was to have the championship awarded, and then decline it. This would have stuck it to Ferrari and Max, but by application of the rules, as part of the sport.

It was ruled against them, there was a winner and a loser, as an outcome of a sporting competition. McLaren was Senna's team, for goodness' sake.

Evil does not exist only in fantasy books and movies. Trying to ruin a young man's lifetime achievement, hiding between lies, after spying on your rival - for me this is evil. It is my opinion. McLaren for me represented evil this year.

[F1boat]

I agree, Williams and BMW expressed their satisfaction without bitterness, Todt couldn't resist adding "desperate" to his comment. I'm hoping Domenicali is a more sporting character, not too influenced by Montezemolo.


Ferrari had a lot more to lose than Williams and BMW. I fully agree with Mr. Todt's opinion. IMO he was even quite kind.