F1 crisis meeting

[ioan]

According to pitpass.com, who are quoting The Daily Telegraph, there was a crisis meeting between Bernie and the representatives from all F1 teams except from Ferrari, McLaren and Renault.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=33374

It seems that Bernie is afraid that Renault might have quit F1 if a huge fine will be imposed on them following the MackerethGate!

Bernie seems to forget however that it's his and only his greed that brought the huge fine on McLaren and thus created a precedent that might bring the end of Renault in F1.

The fine was imposed on McLaren as an exchange for letting their drivers keep their points and fight for the championship, thus keeping high viewing rates and generating more money for Bernie.

If Bernie would have left the WMSC ban the McLaren team and its drivers from this seasons campionship, than McLaren would have only lost the TV revenues (some $ 50 million or so). And also Renault would have only lost their share of TV revenues if the team is to be given the same sanction as McLaren got.

In the end it is his greed that brought F1 in a situation where they might lose one of the top teams.

Shame on you Bernie, you're destroying F1 with your greed.

[Ari]

Well said ioan!

I don't always agree with what you've to say, but your spot on here. I don't think anyone would disagree one bit.

Bernie really needs to step back and take a look around. He has a fantastic sport and a fantastic competition but appears to be doing all he possibly can to stuff it up.

[ArrowsFA1]

Bernie seems to forget however that it's his and only his greed that brought the huge fine on McLaren and thus created a precedent that might bring the end of Renault in F1.

The fine was imposed on McLaren as an exchange for letting their drivers keep their points and fight for the championship, thus keeping high viewing rates and generating more money for Bernie.
You're right that BE was one of those seeking a fine, and not an exclusion for McLaren. As he said at the time (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62375):

"The alternative to the fine was worse, being excluded from the championship for two years. It was much closer than everybody says it was. It really would have been bad news. McLaren would have lost more than they have been fined, if they'd have not been able to keep going."
If McLaren, a F1 team, had been kicked out of F1 then it is possible that we would not have seen them back. The loss of sponsors and income could have seen to that. The fine was seen as an alternative which would punish them heavily but allow them to continue in the sport.

The problem now is that precedent has been set, and there must be genuine concerns about Renault's situation because it seems to be very similar to the McLaren case. As Bernie said "the threat is definitely there now if any team is helping anyone else. even if it is a smaller team than McLaren, they're gone, without any hesitation."

[SGWilko]

The problem now is that precedent has been set

And that is no small problem, this is potentially the straw that breaks the camels back. :down:

[ioan]

If McLaren, a F1 team, had been kicked out of F1 then it is possible that we would not have seen them back. The loss of sponsors and income could have seen to that. The fine was seen as an alternative which would punish them heavily but allow them to continue in the sport.

It would have been only for the last 3 races. And if that would have been such a problem than I think they could have let them race but take away all their points (inclusive those for the drivers championship). Sponsor would have been OK with that as they seem to be OK with the huge fine the team got along with their WCC disqualification.

But Bernie wanted his showdown in the drivers title, well he might get the end of F1 now.

[passmeatissue]

Bernie called the crisis meeting because spying and copying has been the normal culture of F1, and he wants that to change. We only know about small parts of it, when something odd has happened like someone caught in the back of a transporter or Trudie Coughlan going to the copy shop. Normally the Renault business wouldn't have come out, Ron only made the complaint to fend off the 2008 points deduction that Max was aiming for. Also there were rumours of a third team with McLaren discs, but no more has been heard.

The line is supposedly drawn between what staff can take in their heads, and what can be taken on disc. but that obviously is a line that is easily crossed - e.g. have the discs at home to refresh your memory before you go to work ;)

The reason McLaren got the big penalty was because Max, Todt, di Montezemolo and Flav made a huge noise about it, exaggerated it, and got it treated as though it was the only illegal copying ever.

Now that is coming home to roost. Max and Flav are on the spot and I have no sympathy with them.

But Bernie IMHO is quite right to try to get things spelled out for the future, what is and isn't acceptable, and how to police it. I bet they all admitted it is rife, shame there isn't a transcript...

[ArrowsFA1]

It would have been only for the last 3 races.
No ioan, the alternative (to the fine) being discussed was, as Bernie said, "being excluded from the championship for two years".

[Erki]

F1 in Crisis? :laugh:
WRC should get a crisis meeting. :rolleyes:

Renault out of F1? Erm... did they even compete this year? :)

[trumperZ06]

Bernie called the crisis meeting because spying and copying has been the normal culture of F1, and he wants that to change. We only know about small parts of it, when something odd has happened like someone caught in the back of a transporter or Trudie Coughlan going to the copy shop. Normally the Renault business wouldn't have come out, Ron only made the complaint to fend off the 2008 points deduction that Max was aiming for. Also there were rumours of a third team with McLaren discs, but no more has been heard.

The line is supposedly drawn between what staff can take in their heads, and what can be taken on disc. but that obviously is a line that is easily crossed - e.g. have the discs at home to refresh your memory before you go to work ;)

The reason McLaren got the big penalty was because Max, Todt, di Montezemolo and Flav made a huge noise about it, exaggerated it, and got it treated as though it was the only illegal copying ever.

Now that is coming home to roost. Max and Flav are on the spot and I have no sympathy with them.

But Bernie IMHO is quite right to try to get things spelled out for the future, what is and isn't acceptable, and how to police it. I bet they all admitted it is rife, shame there isn't a transcript...


:D Well stated !!!

[Valve Bounce]

I hope Bernie mentioned that little temperature infraction to them while he was at it.

[truefan72]

F1 is mess off the track.

sanity needs to be brought back in and Mosley needs to go.

what exactly does it take to get rid of him?
then reduce the fines, then create a new transparent and realistic set of standards

[markabilly]

F1 is mess off the track.

sanity needs to be brought back in and Mosley needs to go.

what exactly does it take to get rid of him?
then reduce the fines, then create a new transparent and realistic set of standards


Max ain't the problem, he is more of a puppet to benie than people realize.......this meeting was also mentioned in the reanult thread, so a bit of old news

Bernie said problems like this should be handled internally....????

[ioan]

Max ain't the problem, he is more of a puppet to benie than people realize.......

The problem is that people don't realize. ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

Perhaps Bernie's trying what he tried to do during the Indy Tyre Fiasco of 2005, and what he's been able to do in the past...call a meeting and bang heads together until a solution is found.

The problem is times have changed. Things don't work as they did in the old FOCA days, and Bernie doesn't have the same power & influence over the teams/manufacturers as he once held among the garagistes.

However, in the interests of F1 as a whole, someone needs to get a grip.

[Malbec]

Essentially McLaren lost $100 million and its constructors points because of a rogue employee who kept the info from Ferrari at his home. As an organisation how on earth are other teams going to ensure that all their employees have nothing from other teams stashed away somewhere? If Brawn or Newey had their homes raided tomorrow how likely is it that no Ferrari/McLaren material is found at all? The number of staff transfers between teams, particularly the British based ones, is quite significant so the potential for illegal IP transfer is quite immense. Its an impossible thing to police and I'm sure quite a few teams out there can point fingers to other teams that they feel have benefited from info taken by transferring staff.

By punishing McLaren so severely for merely having an employee who possessed Ferrari info (and not proving any benefit) the FIA simply has to punish similar offences equally hard or lose all credibility as a fair governing body. McLaren is run by a man for whom life is F1 and who will do everything to stay in it. Renault is run by a man for whom profit is the only thing that counts and who will be more than happy to pull the plug on the team if the numbers don't add up in its favour, not to mention the negative publicity from being found guilty of something as unacceptable in the real world as IP theft.

Copying is never going to leave F1. All teams engage in it whether its a guy running round the paddock taking pictures of new parts on rival cars at test sessions and racedays or whether its a staff member taking ideas in his head from one team to another. I'm sure Bernie knows that and won't be bothering to remove it from F1, rather get a consensus formed on how to sort out the issue and prevent further cases from reaching the headlines. I suspect he's giving the teams an earful and telling them to let sleeping dogs lie.

[dime3]

Essentially McLaren lost $100 million and its constructors points because of a rogue employee who kept the info from Ferrari at his home. As an organisation how on earth are other teams going to ensure that all their employees have nothing from other teams stashed away somewhere? If Brawn or Newey had their homes raided tomorrow how likely is it that no Ferrari/McLaren material is found at all? The number of staff transfers between teams, particularly the British based ones, is quite significant so the potential for illegal IP transfer is quite immense. Its an impossible thing to police and I'm sure quite a few teams out there can point fingers to other teams that they feel have benefited from info taken by transferring staff.

By punishing McLaren so severely for merely having an employee who possessed Ferrari info (and not proving any benefit) the FIA simply has to punish similar offences equally hard or lose all credibility as a fair governing body. McLaren is run by a man for whom life is F1 and who will do everything to stay in it. Renault is run by a man for whom profit is the only thing that counts and who will be more than happy to pull the plug on the team if the numbers don't add up in its favour, not to mention the negative publicity from being found guilty of something as unacceptable in the real world as IP theft.

Copying is never going to leave F1. All teams engage in it whether its a guy running round the paddock taking pictures of new parts on rival cars at test sessions and racedays or whether its a staff member taking ideas in his head from one team to another. I'm sure Bernie knows that and won't be bothering to remove it from F1, rather get a consensus formed on how to sort out the issue and prevent further cases from reaching the headlines. I suspect he's giving the teams an earful and telling them to let sleeping dogs lie.
Well said!

Course Max doesn't have it in for Renault, so no punishment will be given out... :rolleyes:

[Hawkmoon]

Copying is never going to leave F1. All teams engage in it whether its a guy running round the paddock taking pictures of new parts on rival cars at test sessions and racedays or whether its a staff member taking ideas in his head from one team to another. I'm sure Bernie knows that and won't be bothering to remove it from F1, rather get a consensus formed on how to sort out the issue and prevent further cases from reaching the headlines. I suspect he's giving the teams an earful and telling them to let sleeping dogs lie.

There is a difference between "spying" by taking photos and observing other teams and possing hard data about a rival's car. Spying is OK, as is the transfer of knowledge via people changing teams. Having hard data, such as 780 page dossiers or floppy discs of drawings, is not.

Take as many photos as you want. When a car is on the track it's in the public domain and is open to scrutiny. Poach an engineer for his knowledge. It's not like he can erase his knowledge of his previous team. But don't take copies of other teams data. That's theft and that's where the line has to be drawn.

[wmcot]

There is a difference between "spying" by taking photos and observing other teams and possing hard data about a rival's car. Spying is OK, as is the transfer of knowledge via people changing teams. Having hard data, such as 780 page dossiers or floppy discs of drawings, is not.

Take as many photos as you want. When a car is on the track it's in the public domain and is open to scrutiny. Poach an engineer for his knowledge. It's not like he can erase his knowledge of his previous team. But don't take copies of other teams data. That's theft and that's where the line has to be drawn.

Sounds like a good definition of what is acceptable and what isn't. Perhaps the FIA should put this in their rule book.

[555-04Q2]

crisis :?: what crisis :p :

[ioan]

crisis :?: what crisis :p :

Bernie's crisis! He has broken his favorite toy and he needs help to fix it!

[SGWilko]

F1 is mess off the track.

sanity needs to be brought back in and Mosley needs to go.

what exactly does it take to get rid of him?
then reduce the fines, then create a new transparent and realistic set of standards

.....and then we all woke up the next day and realised nothing had changed :p :

[Malbec]

There is a difference between "spying" by taking photos and observing other teams and possing hard data about a rival's car. Spying is OK, as is the transfer of knowledge via people changing teams. Having hard data, such as 780 page dossiers or floppy discs of drawings, is not.

Take as many photos as you want. When a car is on the track it's in the public domain and is open to scrutiny. Poach an engineer for his knowledge. It's not like he can erase his knowledge of his previous team. But don't take copies of other teams data. That's theft and that's where the line has to be drawn.

I was talking about the full spectrum of methods for obtaining information about rival cars/teams.

Sure taking photos of cars at races is acceptable, buying files from another team via an unscrupulous employee is not. Now what about the various shades of grey?

How about Newey scribbling notes on new parts at home whilst in McLaren employment and developing them there before going to RBR and reusing those notes to do the same in his new team? He's just stolen McLaren IP and used it at RBR, yet if he just memorised those notes its acceptable. Remember that tens, perhaps over a hundred staff transfer between teams in any season.

The line between legitimate information transfer and IP theft is incredibly blurred yet the penalties for transgression are unbelievably harsh. It will be impossible for the FIA or any other body to police this area except in the most obvious of cases and it is far more practical for Bernie to simply get the teams to move on and not cause any more trouble by flinging accusations at other teams as Ferrari/McLaren have done.

[truefan72]

I was talking about the full spectrum of methods for obtaining information about rival cars/teams.

Sure taking photos of cars at races is acceptable, buying files from another team via an unscrupulous employee is not. Now what about the various shades of grey?

How about Newey scribbling notes on new parts at home whilst in McLaren employment and developing them there before going to RBR and reusing those notes to do the same in his new team? He's just stolen McLaren IP and used it at RBR, yet if he just memorised those notes its acceptable. Remember that tens, perhaps over a hundred staff transfer between teams in any season.

The line between legitimate information transfer and IP theft is incredibly blurred yet the penalties for transgression are unbelievably harsh. It will be impossible for the FIA or any other body to police this area except in the most obvious of cases and it is far more practical for Bernie to simply get the teams to move on and not cause any more trouble by flinging accusations at other teams as Ferrari/McLaren have done.

all's I got to say is; the code of conduct and general feeelings up and down the paddock prior to 2007 seemed to have worked out for everyone. It is only Ferrari in their zeal to win on or off the track that opened up this whole intricate mess with their legal wranglings. The measures I proposed in several threads are only a way on puttingthe lid back on pandor'as box that Ferrari opened. All these issues are a complete waste of everyone's time. It wouldbe great if we went back tot he decorum that existed prior to the spygate.

Everyone implicitly understanding that info gets around and only bringing suit when there is a real and proven violation of a sizable porportion.

teams should be busy preparing for the 2008 season, instead at least 6 teams are preparing for legal hearings, trials and meetings in paris.

If the brass a F1 / FIA cannot see how all these matters are ruining their sport, then they all drunk with power and to inebriated to save the sport.

[GP-M3]

Everyone implicitly understanding that info gets around and only bringing suit when there is a real and proven violation of a sizable porportion.

Well, you seem to minimize one "small" point. How "sizable a proportion" [sic] does it take for you? Having a 780 page library on the other teams car, strategy, operations, testing, and so forth seems pretty sizable to me. :p

[passmeatissue]

Well, you seem to minimize one "small" point. How "sizable a proportion" [sic] does it take for you? Having a 780 page library on the other teams car, strategy, operations, testing, and so forth seems pretty sizable to me. :p

Well 780 pages sounds a lot, but in terms of what would actually be any use to a top team it wouldn't be any more than a single senior engineer would bring with him. And it was never even shown that the dossier got into the team. That whole thing was wildly exaggerated to get Ron.

Consider how much Ferrari knowledge has just gone to Honda.

[ioan]

Consider how much Ferrari knowledge has just gone to Honda.

Not the F2007 nor the F2008!

[ioan]

Well 780 pages sounds a lot, but in terms of what would actually be any use to a top team it wouldn't be any more than a single senior engineer would bring with him.

I think that you are a bit overoptimistic about the human memory.

[passmeatissue]

Not the F2007 nor the F2008!

I think that you are a bit overoptimistic about the human memory.


Brawn left Ferrari in November, when the 2007 car was finished. The dossier dates around 4 months later, at most.

A page is maybe 3,000 characters, 24,000 bits, times 780 is about 18Mbits, human memory is the order of 10^8432 bits - 1 with 8,433 zeros after it. You could remember trillions of dossiers.

And that isn't even Ross Brawn's brain :)

[ioan]

Brawn left Ferrari in November, when the 2007 car was finished.

Sure, than why did they launch the new car only in January 2007?
What about all the changes they did after starting to test with the new Bridgestone tires?!
And that as after Brawn left!

In 4 months plenty of things changed, and in 12 months almost everything changed in that car.

Also Brawn was not the designer of the cars at Ferrari!

[wmcot]

Until we find a way to wipe out certain memories from the brain, we'll always have the "human element" when people change teams. Remember that memories aren't perfect either, and you might find you a re-designing a part in the wrong way.

The complaint most of us share is when information is transferred on paper, computer disks, email, text messages, etc. that it is over the line of what is reasonable.

[passmeatissue]

Sure, than why did they launch the new car only in January 2007?
What about all the changes they did after starting to test with the new Bridgestone tires?!
And that as after Brawn left!

In 4 months plenty of things changed, and in 12 months almost everything changed in that car.

Also Brawn was not the designer of the cars at Ferrari!

They don't design the car the week before the launch, but anyway it's not the point is it? The dossier is equally old, not all freshly written in March 07; from November 06 everybody had the new Bridgestones, it was the prior experience, from 05, that was valuable. People keep citing the dossier as a huge asset to McLaren, it wouldn't have been, even if they had read it.

[passmeatissue]

Until we find a way to wipe out certain memories from the brain, we'll always have the "human element" when people change teams. Remember that memories aren't perfect either, and you might find you a re-designing a part in the wrong way.

The complaint most of us share is when information is transferred on paper, computer disks, email, text messages, etc. that it is over the line of what is reasonable.

Yes I agree. It's wrong to take data in hard form. It's just the question of how big a deal is it. Montezemolo was trying to make out McLaren had virtually stolen their car, in fact obviously the 2007 McLaren was designed up to a year before. McLaren probably picked up a few things from Stepney, but as a proportion of the information transferred all the time by legal means, it was peanuts. The exaggeration and hype from Ferrari and Max was political and vindictive. They are the unsporting ones in this, that's my objection.

[ioan]

... in fact obviously the 2007 McLaren was designed up to a year before.

Yeah obviously! :rolleyes:
Proof please!

[passmeatissue]

Yeah obviously! :rolleyes:
Proof please!

I don't think you know enough to argue this, other than at the schoolboy level. If you want to know when teams start designing their cars, do some research, then come back and have an informed debate.

There is some info about this at http://www.truthtree.com/debates.shtml

[ioan]

I don't think you know enough to argue this, other than at the schoolboy level. If you want to know when teams start designing their cars, do some research, then come back and have an informed debate.

There is some info about this at http://www.truthtree.com/debates.shtml

So you have no proof. Thanks! :rolleyes:

[truefan72]

ioan

you are arguing a losing battle
you know very well that cars are designed months and sometimes up to a year in advance, with minor modifications and tweaks as the rules and regs see fit.

Remember in France 2007 that Renault mentioned that they are focusing on their 2008 car from now on, meaning that they had already commited resources to design etc, months ago and now are bringing in the rest of the tech staff onto the project.

Why get mired down in a useless argument when you know you are wrong. Unless you just want a good back and forth wasting time rather than discussing things of consequence.

[markabilly]

ioan



Remember in France 2007 that Renault mentioned that they are focusing on their 2008 car from now on, meaning that they had already commited resources to design etc, months ago and now are bringing in the rest of the tech staff onto the project.

.
Yeah, about the same time, I ran into one of their staff trying to buy an old computer at a garage sale, but when he discovered it did not use floppies, he walked away empty handed and digusted for some reason.....

[Malbec]

ioan

you are arguing a losing battle
you know very well that cars are designed months and sometimes up to a year in advance, with minor modifications and tweaks as the rules and regs see fit.

Remember in France 2007 that Renault mentioned that they are focusing on their 2008 car from now on, meaning that they had already commited resources to design etc, months ago and now are bringing in the rest of the tech staff onto the project.

Quite. By mid-November most teams would have completed the design of their 2008 challengers and will be working on methods of improving the package.

[GP-M3]

Yeah, about the same time, I ran into one of their staff trying to buy an old computer at a garage sale, but when he discovered it did not use floppies, he walked away empty handed and digusted for some reason.....

Good one! LOL :)

[Bagwan]

Yes I agree. It's wrong to take data in hard form. It's just the question of how big a deal is it. Montezemolo was trying to make out McLaren had virtually stolen their car, in fact obviously the 2007 McLaren was designed up to a year before. McLaren probably picked up a few things from Stepney, but as a proportion of the information transferred all the time by legal means, it was peanuts. The exaggeration and hype from Ferrari and Max was political and vindictive. They are the unsporting ones in this, that's my objection.

So , you agree that hard copy is wrong .

Then you ridicule Luca for saying that the car design was stolen , because the had thier design done already .

Then you say they "probably" used info , but not much .

Then you say that the team that lost 780 pages of data , current strategy , and consequently , almost a title to McLaren , a team convicted , unappealed on a fine of $100million , is "political and vindictive" , for protesting ?


Stealing hard copy is wrong . 780 pages worth is not peanuts .
If , as you say , they used almost nothing of it , they are more the fools , as "in for a penny , in for a pound" applies here .
It is simply down to the fact that they had access to those pages .
The fact that much of the data that they had stolen was of no use is nobody's problem but thier own .
The fact that , by the the time they had it in thier posession , the McLaren was already designed , was nobody's problem but thier own as well .

E-mails and text messaging proved it was an on-going stream of data , with questions of clarification relating to the 780 pages .



And , you call Ferrari unsporting in this .

So , you agree that hard copy is wrong .

Then you ridicule Luca for saying that the car design was stolen , because the had thier design done already .

Then you say they "probably" used info , but not much .

Then you say that the team that lost 780 pages of data , current strategy , and consequently , almost a title to McLaren , a team convicted , unappealed on a fine of $100million , is "political and vindictive" , for protesting ?


Stealing hard copy is wrong . 780 pages worth is not peanuts .
If , as you say , they used almost nothing of it , they are more the fools , as "in for a penny , in for a pound" applies here .
It is simply down to the fact that they had access to those pages .
The fact that much of the data that they had stolen was of no use is nobody's problem but thier own .
The fact that , by the the time they had it in thier posession , the McLaren was already designed , was nobody's problem but thier own as well .

E-mails and text messaging proved it was an on-going stream of data , with questions of clarification relating to the 780 pages .



And , you call Ferrari unsporting in this .

Excellent post.

[passmeatissue]

So , you agree that hard copy is wrong .

Then you ridicule Luca for saying that the car design was stolen , because the had thier design done already .

Then you say they "probably" used info , but not much .

Then you say that the team that lost 780 pages of data , current strategy , and consequently , almost a title to McLaren , a team convicted , unappealed on a fine of $100million , is "political and vindictive" , for protesting ?


Stealing hard copy is wrong . 780 pages worth is not peanuts .
If , as you say , they used almost nothing of it , they are more the fools , as "in for a penny , in for a pound" applies here .
It is simply down to the fact that they had access to those pages .
The fact that much of the data that they had stolen was of no use is nobody's problem but thier own .
The fact that , by the the time they had it in thier posession , the McLaren was already designed , was nobody's problem but thier own as well .

E-mails and text messaging proved it was an on-going stream of data , with questions of clarification relating to the 780 pages .

And , you call Ferrari unsporting in this .

Coughlan had the dossier, not the team. It wasn't stolen by McLaren, but by Stepney, and only Coughlan was texting Stepney, no-one else.

You can't say, IMO, one the one hand that it's unethical to use stolen data, but on the other hand "foolish" not to use it as much as you can. Either you advocate honesty, or you advocate cheating and opportunism.

Only four people were definitely implicated in the spying, and Montezemolo has made it clear he views one of them very favourably. That's a measure of how serious he really thinks it was. Likewise Max had lunch with him and them announced himself as his protector.

After all the outrage expressed by Todt, Montezelomo and Max, now in the Renault affair they are all saying nothing. That's because in reality, the main event was the political opportunity against Ron.

[Bagwan]

Coughlan had the dossier, not the team. It wasn't stolen by McLaren, but by Stepney, and only Coughlan was texting Stepney, no-one else.

You can't say, IMO, one the one hand that it's unethical to use stolen data, but on the other hand "foolish" not to use it as much as you can. Either you advocate honesty, or you advocate cheating and opportunism.

Only four people were definitely implicated in the spying, and Montezemolo has made it clear he views one of them very favourably. That's a measure of how serious he really thinks it was. Likewise Max had lunch with him and them announced himself as his protector.

After all the outrage expressed by Todt, Montezelomo and Max, now in the Renault affair they are all saying nothing. That's because in reality, the main event was the political opportunity against Ron.

"No-one else" doesn't fit with the drivers asking questions about it . I don't suppose you'd have to actually see it to benefit from it if you could get it incorporated in your set-up or strategy , and we know they tested the ideas , or , at least , considered them , from Pedro's and Fernando's e-mail stream .

Your second paragraph perhaps shows you as not fully understanding the "in for a penny , in for a pound " reference .
Of course I don't advocate theft , but it is hardly a defence to say that one should be treated differently because the item marked stolen was useless .

For the thief , it is the same as for the gambler .
To Coughlan , the risk of being caught was not outweighed by the possibility of the potential gains from having the dossier .

Of course , to have come forward with the info for Max pleased Ferrari . What would one expect ?
Max knew that the dossier had been found , and , due to in-fighting , proof of the use of the info was available .
You may call it "blackmail" , but up to that point , Ron's only defence was the "rogue employee" gambit , and it was Fernando's deal with Max that kept him and his team in the championship .

You now expect Ferrari to comment , but that would ensure the right to say they are trying to influence another situation for thier own gain in many people's eye's .
It would play right into Jackie Stewart's hand .

[passmeatissue]

"No-one else" doesn't fit with the drivers asking questions about it . I don't suppose you'd have to actually see it to benefit from it if you could get it incorporated in your set-up or strategy , and we know they tested the ideas , or , at least , considered them , from Pedro's and Fernando's e-mail stream .

Your second paragraph perhaps shows you as not fully understanding the "in for a penny , in for a pound " reference .
Of course I don't advocate theft , but it is hardly a defence to say that one should be treated differently because the item marked stolen was useless .

For the thief , it is the same as for the gambler .
To Coughlan , the risk of being caught was not outweighed by the possibility of the potential gains from having the dossier .

Of course , to have come forward with the info for Max pleased Ferrari . What would one expect ?
Max knew that the dossier had been found , and , due to in-fighting , proof of the use of the info was available .
You may call it "blackmail" , but up to that point , Ron's only defence was the "rogue employee" gambit , and it was Fernando's deal with Max that kept him and his team in the championship .

You now expect Ferrari to comment , but that would ensure the right to say they are trying to influence another situation for thier own gain in many people's eye's .
It would play right into Jackie Stewart's hand .

Well I do accept that some use was made of Ferrari data, and that this was wrong. I agree that McLaren lied about this, trying to say that no use was made at all. I'm just saying that the extent was exaggerated, in the context that, as Renault are showing, a certain amount of illegal copying is normal in F1.

I think Fernando's ethical position is terrible. He participated actively in seeking information from Stepney. Well I think that is no big deal in F1, and is in line with the casual way Renault just left the McLaren data lying around in their system for all those months. But Max and Montezemolo claim to be outraged by the spying. Then Fernando does not reveal his emails to Bernie for any moral reason, he does it spitefully to hurt McLaren -his team - and Ron, after getting immunity. Remember max only wrote to the drivers after getting FA's tipoff via Bernie.

So for Montezemolo and Max to be excusing FA from their condemnation of McLaren indicates to me that they didn't really care that much about the ethics of it all, or the data itself.

[ioan]

Well I do accept that some use was made of Ferrari data, and that this was wrong. I agree that McLaren lied about this, trying to say that no use was made at all.

All right until here! :up:


I'm just saying that the extent was exaggerated, in the context that, as Renault are showing, a certain amount of illegal copying is normal in F1.

The fact that McLaren were not the only one to do it does not make it legal or right.

[Bagwan]

Well I do accept that some use was made of Ferrari data, and that this was wrong. I agree that McLaren lied about this, trying to say that no use was made at all. I'm just saying that the extent was exaggerated, in the context that, as Renault are showing, a certain amount of illegal copying is normal in F1.

I think Fernando's ethical position is terrible. He participated actively in seeking information from Stepney. Well I think that is no big deal in F1, and is in line with the casual way Renault just left the McLaren data lying around in their system for all those months. But Max and Montezemolo claim to be outraged by the spying. Then Fernando does not reveal his emails to Bernie for any moral reason, he does it spitefully to hurt McLaren -his team - and Ron, after getting immunity. Remember max only wrote to the drivers after getting FA's tipoff via Bernie.

So for Montezemolo and Max to be excusing FA from their condemnation of McLaren indicates to me that they didn't really care that much about the ethics of it all, or the data itself.

Perhaps a certain amount is normal , but none of it is legal .

I think , perhaps , that in this instance , we saw the epitome of what can happen when the stakes are this high . Instead of tid-bits of info being exchanged , we saw the whole enchilada , in an entire set of plans .

Luca(of whom I am no fan) properly expresses outrage , as they were his plans , and Max , charged with cleaning up the mess , is also rightly insensed .

I know it hurts the McLaren fan to hear they cheated , but they did .
Whether Ron knew or not while all this was going on is debatable , but if we take it that he didn't , then it must be noted that it was Fernando's deal was the guarantee that kept them in the championship .
It was Fernando's deal that gives credence to Ron's story in the first place .

Of course , though , it also showed the team for which he signed responsibilty , was cheating .


Ron did the right thing when the info came to his attention , it seems , but it was Alonso who was disclosing it , and it was the real truth about what was going on at McLaren .
His "blackmail" attempt was dislodged when it became clear , or appeared to , to him , that he was trying it on with someone who wasn't in the loop .
Perhaps it's a little thin on ethics , but one might cut Fernando a little more slack if one knows he dropped the issue when he found out he wasn't dealing with someone knowingly cheating .

So , rather than threatening to grass them out to get #1 status , he did a deal that kept them in it to the end .


All in all , a pretty stupid situation , that I hope we can avoid in future .

[Malbec]

I think those people who are getting into the nitty gritty of the Stepneygate affair are missing the point.

I suspect that if you took a random team except for perhaps SAF1 and Spyker and asked them "do you think some of your info has found its way to another team" then they could point some fingers. McLaren managed to accuse Renault almost as a kneejerk reaction when they themselves were accused and lo and behold several discs were found at Renault.

Whilst the scale of having 780 files from another team being found at another team's employees house may be greater than normal taking hard copies of info from one team to another is probably not uncommon. That is the problem.

Previously this issue wasn't particularly important but now F1 has been put into the spotlight thanks to IP theft and the FIA has clarified that the penalty will be in the region of $100 million and loss of WCC points if found guilty the stakes have been raised. F1 can't afford having further cases of IP theft brought into the public eye, Bernie is addressing this issue the best way possible, by telling the other teams to keep such cases quiet!

[passmeatissue]

Perhaps a certain amount is normal , but none of it is legal .

I think , perhaps , that in this instance , we saw the epitome of what can happen when the stakes are this high . Instead of tid-bits of info being exchanged , we saw the whole enchilada , in an entire set of plans .

Luca(of whom I am no fan) properly expresses outrage , as they were his plans , and Max , charged with cleaning up the mess , is also rightly insensed .

I know it hurts the McLaren fan to hear they cheated , but they did .
Whether Ron knew or not while all this was going on is debatable , but if we take it that he didn't , then it must be noted that it was Fernando's deal was the guarantee that kept them in the championship .
It was Fernando's deal that gives credence to Ron's story in the first place .

Of course , though , it also showed the team for which he signed responsibilty , was cheating .


Ron did the right thing when the info came to his attention , it seems , but it was Alonso who was disclosing it , and it was the real truth about what was going on at McLaren .
His "blackmail" attempt was dislodged when it became clear , or appeared to , to him , that he was trying it on with someone who wasn't in the loop .
Perhaps it's a little thin on ethics , but one might cut Fernando a little more slack if one knows he dropped the issue when he found out he wasn't dealing with someone knowingly cheating .

So , rather than threatening to grass them out to get #1 status , he did a deal that kept them in it to the end .


All in all , a pretty stupid situation , that I hope we can avoid in future .

Well I find I still quite like Fernando, but I am not sure why! I think you are very generous to him, the easy way for him to protect his team, before or after he realised Ron wasn't in on it, was just quietly to delete his emals :) .

My feeling is that as long as Max and Bernie run the sport, there will be a bias for Ferrari and against McLaren. If anything, Max seems to get more vindictive as he gets older (I have a theory that as we get older, our true nature comes out more!). Also I should distinguish between my feelings for Ferrari the sporting team and the individuals Todt and Montezemolo, who I feel lack the sporting instinct. Montezemolo is an aggressive businessman and politician, he would be better staying out of it.

And historically I am not a McLaren fan, though I am amazed by Lewis and do support him. What I want is a sporting competition on a fair basis. I am very disappointed that Ron's enemies have managed to get him painted as a cheat for so many fans, and I do think this was deliberate.

December 6th and 7th will tell us more. I hope McLaren are left alone for 2008 and Renault get a verdict that is not too inconsistent with the McLaren precedent, whatever that is when the facts are clearer. Personally my (faint) hope is that it will be also the end of Max.

[passmeatissue]

I think those people who are getting into the nitty gritty of the Stepneygate affair are missing the point.

I suspect that if you took a random team except for perhaps SAF1 and Spyker and asked them "do you think some of your info has found its way to another team" then they could point some fingers. McLaren managed to accuse Renault almost as a kneejerk reaction when they themselves were accused and lo and behold several discs were found at Renault.

Whilst the scale of having 780 files from another team being found at another team's employees house may be greater than normal taking hard copies of info from one team to another is probably not uncommon. That is the problem.

Previously this issue wasn't particularly important but now F1 has been put into the spotlight thanks to IP theft and the FIA has clarified that the penalty will be in the region of $100 million and loss of WCC points if found guilty the stakes have been raised. F1 can't afford having further cases of IP theft brought into the public eye, Bernie is addressing this issue the best way possible, by telling the other teams to keep such cases quiet!

I agree, I think that's a sound analysis.

I am half looking forward to hearing the arguments on December 6/7th, which should be fascinating, and half dreading a bad outcome :s

[Bagwan]

Well I find I still quite like Fernando, but I am not sure why! I think you are very generous to him, the easy way for him to protect his team, before or after he realised Ron wasn't in on it, was just quietly to delete his emals :) .

My feeling is that as long as Max and Bernie run the sport, there will be a bias for Ferrari and against McLaren. If anything, Max seems to get more vindictive as he gets older (I have a theory that as we get older, our true nature comes out more!). Also I should distinguish between my feelings for Ferrari the sporting team and the individuals Todt and Montezemolo, who I feel lack the sporting instinct. Montezemolo is an aggressive businessman and politician, he would be better staying out of it.

And historically I am not a McLaren fan, though I am amazed by Lewis and do support him. What I want is a sporting competition on a fair basis. I am very disappointed that Ron's enemies have managed to get him painted as a cheat for so many fans, and I do think this was deliberate.

December 6th and 7th will tell us more. I hope McLaren are left alone for 2008 and Renault get a verdict that is not too inconsistent with the McLaren precedent, whatever that is when the facts are clearer. Personally my (faint) hope is that it will be also the end of Max.

Now , hold on a minute .
Delete the e-mails ?

How does that not display a lack of sporting instinct ?

Ron's rival's showed his team to be cheating , and Max found a way to allow the team to continue .
I would not have wanted Max's job during this . It sure seemed like a goofy way to make it happen , but at this point it doesn't look like there were many options .

And , as for Renault , I have no idea how Max will sort that one out , but I can't think of a better man for the job .

[passmeatissue]

Now , hold on a minute .
Delete the e-mails ?

How does that not display a lack of sporting instinct ?

Ron's rival's showed his team to be cheating , and Max found a way to allow the team to continue .
I would not have wanted Max's job during this . It sure seemed like a goofy way to make it happen , but at this point it doesn't look like there were many options .

And , as for Renault , I have no idea how Max will sort that one out , but I can't think of a better man for the job .

Wow, well that is a view I didn't see coming.

For me, Max orchestrated the heaviest punishment possible, and was frustrated that he was outvoted on having McLaren excluded for 2 years. I remember both Max and Bernie saying that. Max's verdict document was a masterpiece in marshalling the often quite flimsy evidence into a convincing indictment.

One of the big differences with Renault is that Max is not preparing the way for a big penalty.

As for Fernando's sporting instincts, well if he thought using Stepney was wrong, he could have stopped at any time. This is the thing, it was just normal to him and the others.

[Bagwan]

Wow, well that is a view I didn't see coming.

For me, Max orchestrated the heaviest punishment possible, and was frustrated that he was outvoted on having McLaren excluded for 2 years. I remember both Max and Bernie saying that. Max's verdict document was a masterpiece in marshalling the often quite flimsy evidence into a convincing indictment.

One of the big differences with Renault is that Max is not preparing the way for a big penalty.

As for Fernando's sporting instincts, well if he thought using Stepney was wrong, he could have stopped at any time. This is the thing, it was just normal to him and the others.

The maximum penalty was 2 years exclusion from the championship , and Max's deal with Fernando kept them in it .
He and Bernie both expressing outrage at the outcome saves face with those who wanted the maximum .

As for "flimsy evidence" , I thought we'd already gone over that issue .
It was not "flimsy" . They had them dead to rights .

And , as I said , perhaps that moment of "blackmail" was an epiphone for everyone .
Perhaps Alonso was as cynical about Ron's denial of any knowledge before that moment as Bernie , Max , and I .
Perhaps , up to that point , he was , as you say , doing something "normal" , feeling he was doing it with sanctioning from his boss .

It must have been quite the moment .
It clearly characterizes the dissention within the team at the time , and the distance from the top of the organization to the bottom , with Ron unaware these things were going on in Woking .

If we leave out the "blackmail" aspect , the situation is different , with Alonso grassing up his team for no evident gain other than revenge , and risk of severe sanction for he and the team .
Add the "blackmail" sub-plot , and you gain the adversarial tone that gives merit to the idea that ratting out the boss comes after the epiphone that the boss had no idea it was going on in the first place .

It , in effect , turned Alonso from a cheater to a "black mailer" , and then to whistle-blower/story verifier .
It was all true , or all very clever , as it made sure that Ron's team stayed in it until the end .

Had they been excluded , the end of the season would have been all-Ferrari , with no contest .
Had they been fined a smaller amount , it would have set a scary precedent for those who might hire a cheap designer and buy some plans .

They had to do it this way . The fine had to be commensurate with the company's resources , so to say we don't condone such activity .


As I said , I wouldn't have wanted Max's job at that point .

[TL]

The maximum penalty was 2 years exclusion from the championship , and Max's deal with Fernando kept them in it .
He and Bernie both expressing outrage at the outcome saves face with those who wanted the maximum .

I thought the first "verdict" said no penalty at all ?

[SparkyKate]

Wow, well that is a view I didn't see coming.

For me, Max orchestrated the heaviest punishment possible, and was frustrated that he was outvoted on having McLaren excluded for 2 years. I remember both Max and Bernie saying that. Max's verdict document was a masterpiece in marshalling the often quite flimsy evidence into a convincing indictment.

One of the big differences with Renault is that Max is not preparing the way for a big penalty.

As for Fernando's sporting instincts, well if he thought using Stepney was wrong, he could have stopped at any time. This is the thing, it was just normal to him and the others.

Ok i've read all your views up to here and think that on the Max and Bernie and this fine front, you are missing the big point.

Max and Bernie are not Ferrari fans, they are money fans and while Schumi was at Ferrari and making them a hell of alot of money, those two circus ringmasters were making sure that nothing got in the way of their cashflow.

Now that Lewis is the main man and set to match Schumi's money-making prowess they have got McMercs back. That may seem weird and is quite obviously not what all of you are thinking, but put it this way, Ferrari still have a good name to protect and would not let this issue go. The only way to keep Hamilton in the title race and keep his stock soaring was to placate Ferrari whilst keeping the title race alive. Give McMerc an over the top fine so that Ferrari cant say the penalty's not enough and drop them out the team championship so that no matter what happens Ferrari gets a trophy at the end of the year.

Ferrari get to prove that even in the years following Schumi, theyre the team to beat, keeping their shareholders etc happy and Max and Bernie both know exactly how to sell it to them as they have been doing it for what, 7 years?

Then they go to McMerc and tell them this is the only way to keep Lewis in it which is why they didn't appeal the decision. Basically, they thought he would win it and Ferrari would be looking at a hollow victory while their golden boy got all the glory.

Which would also explain why they jumped straight on BMW and Williams over this small (possible) infraction. They agreed to the fine thinking they had a clear run to the Championship, yet unfortunately that was not delivered. Bernie and Max can't really do anything so they had to go for the last possible alternative.

Shame that didnt work either really.

[Dzeidzei]

What I want is a sporting competition on a fair basis. I am very disappointed that Ron's enemies have managed to get him painted as a cheat for so many fans, and I do think this was deliberate.

Damn, I must have missed something. Is it still unclear who cheated? There is definitely something lacking here... reason and logic.

Fanatism is great, its a big part of this sport. But this neverending arguing sounds more and more like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtL6gShM-II&feature=related

[SparkyKate]

Just imagine the money McMerc would have made if Lewis had won...it would have been more than enough to cover the fine...and both they and those two old so and so's knew it

[Valve Bounce]

Just imagine the money McMerc would have made if Lewis had won...it would have been more than enough to cover the fine...and both they and those two old so and so's knew it

Yes!! and the "controversial" manner that he finally didn't win it and the subsequest brouhaha created even more interest for F1 in the normally docile somnelant quiet season, and thus ensures that Bernie will make even more money next year.

I know I sound cynical, but don't you agree it was all beautifully orchestrated!!

[wmcot]

. I am very disappointed that Ron's enemies have managed to get him painted as a cheat

Actually, someone should have told Ron that the nozzle on the spray paint can points away from you. :)

[F1boat]

Ron painted himself as a cheat. Maybe it would not have been so hard, if he has not portrayed himself as chivalric in previous seasons. And his final desperate attempt with his lawyers portrayed him as a villain from a Sunday cartoon.

[wmcot]

At the beginning of the spy saga, I commented on Ron's frequent claims of "integrity" and brought up the quote that "methinks he doth protest too much!" Looks like I got one right!

I have to wonder what's going on in Lewis's mind or in his conversations with his dad? Is he saying, "What have I gotten myself into? This bloke's crazy!"

[markabilly]

Ok i've read all your views up to here and think that on the Max and Bernie and this fine front, you are missing the big point.

Max and Bernie are not Ferrari fans, they are money fans and while Schumi was at Ferrari and making them a hell of alot of money, those two circus ringmasters were making sure that nothing got in the way of their cashflow.

Now that Lewis is the main man and set to match Schumi's money-making prowess they have got McMercs back. That may seem weird and is quite obviously not what all of you are thinking, but put it this way, Ferrari still have a good name to protect and would not let this issue go. The only way to keep Hamilton in the title race and keep his stock soaring was to placate Ferrari whilst keeping the title race alive. Give McMerc an over the top fine so that Ferrari cant say the penalty's not enough and drop them out the team championship so that no matter what happens Ferrari gets a trophy at the end of the year.

Ferrari get to prove that even in the years following Schumi, theyre the team to beat, keeping their shareholders etc happy and Max and Bernie both know exactly how to sell it to them as they have been doing it for what, 7 years?

Then they go to McMerc and tell them this is the only way to keep Lewis in it which is why they didn't appeal the decision. Basically, they thought he would win it and Ferrari would be looking at a hollow victory while their golden boy got all the glory.

Which would also explain why they jumped straight on BMW and Williams over this small (possible) infraction. They agreed to the fine thinking they had a clear run to the Championship, yet unfortunately that was not delivered. Bernie and Max can't really do anything so they had to go for the last possible alternative.

Shame that didnt work either really.

for someone so new to this forum, you seemed to have summed it up--never thought Max and Bernie to be Ferrari fans, just that they thought that was where the money was.

Same with Hamilton---Bernie even explicitly said so, whining about the recluse FA and the even worst Kimi, who "hardly says a word", some two races before the end, and expressly claimed he campaigned long and hard to spare the Mac drivers any penalty.

The reason he did not support the Mac appeal was he was afraid that would be one step too many, and hurt revenue from the fall-out of seeing one driver win on TV, live in front of millions, and the other driver take it away, deep in the dark tomb of some court hearing out of the public's view...........so what would be the point of watching TV, and as soon as people think that, there goes those billions..