New chief at Ferrari !

[pino]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63901

[ioan]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63901

It's pretty much logical given that Brawn was holding the key to it and he decided to go with Honda.

[janneppi]

What does Jean Todt do then?
Work on the Fiat assembly line? :)

[ioan]

What does Jean Todt do then?
Work on the Fiat assembly line? :)

The title of the thread is a bit misleading (are you a journo pino? :D ).
Todt will be the head of Ferrari while Domenicali will be the head of the Sporting Division of Ferrari! ;)

[SGWilko]

Do we think this is going to be a winning formula?

[pino]

The title of the thread is a bit misleading (are you a journo pino? :D ).
Todt will be the head of Ferrari while Domenicali will be the head of the Sporting Division of Ferrari! ;)

Nothing wrong with the title, from now on...all sporting decisions will be taken by Domenicali. No I am not a journo ;)

[rohanweb]

I got to spend another few years seeing the rat-face on itv.. mmm

[Hondo]

I think Luca wants to go for an all Italian racing division in the management/technical areas.

[jens]

What does Jean Todt do then?
Work on the Fiat assembly line? :)

He should go to Toyota. ;)

[Hondo]

Believe me when I say I'm not trying to start a war here, but I believe Luca Montezemolo is going to cause Ferrari to slip back into the dark ages. I know a lot of people predicted doom and gloom for Ferrari when Brawn left, but Ferrari won the championship without him. However, acknowledging that the only thing that counts is the final decision, if McLaren had not been stripped of their points, Ferrari would not have won the Constructor's title. Now with Todt out of the way, Montezemolo is free to run the team as he wants and I just don't think he has the "hands-on-in-the-paddock" savvy to do it right.
We'll see.

[truefan72]

Well Luca Montezemolo has now gotten what he wished for. An All Italain Face on Ferrari F1. a successful team built on the backs of multinationalism and extremely talented individuals has now been turned into a natinalistic symbol. As they say pride cometh before fall.

I don't fault Domenicali at all, who wouldn't want to assume that postion. (although I heard rumors of acrimony between he and JT).it will be up to him now (somewhat) to continue the fine traditionfrom the past decade and hpefully he will see fit to hire the bestpeople rather than italians first, or loyalists.
Good luck to him.

[Andy65]

Believe me when I say I'm not trying to start a war here, but I believe Luca Montezemolo is going to cause Ferrari to slip back into the dark ages. I know a lot of people predicted doom and gloom for Ferrari when Brawn left, but Ferrari won the championship without him. However, acknowledging that the only thing that counts is the final decision, if McLaren had not been stripped of their points, Ferrari would not have won the Constructor's title. Now with Todt out of the way, Montezemolo is free to run the team as he wants and I just don't think he has the "hands-on-in-the-paddock" savvy to do it right.
We'll see.

I may be wrong but I think when all the points were worked out at the end of the last race even if Mclaren had not had their points stripped Ferrari would still have won the championship, and just my opinion but I think Ferrari will be very hard to beat next year, and I believe Kimi Raikkonen will win his second championship.

[markabilly]

Well Luca Montezemolo has now gotten what he wished for. An All Italain Face on Ferrari F1. a successful team built on the backs of multinationalism and extremely talented individuals has now been turned into a natinalistic symbol. As they say pride cometh before fall.

I don't fault Domenicali at all, who wouldn't want to assume that postion. (although I heard rumors of acrimony between he and JT).it will be up to him now (somewhat) to continue the fine traditionfrom the past decade and hpefully he will see fit to hire the bestpeople rather than italians first, or loyalists.
Good luck to him.

As i said elsewhere
Not much telling about ferrari--have they gone so Italian that they just go back to their old ways? Running out of gas in the pitlane? While Kimi winning a WDC was nice, but it never would have happened if FA had been their number one, and Mac had not relied upon el choko

Is there a new breed of Italian engineers with the same attitude as at Ducati? Then maybe there is hope for ferrari fans, because Duc has been kicking some serious buttts for a few years in superbike, even on Honda.................and now motogp--for sure casey stoner is good, but he never came close to nicky on the same machines nor Rossi, then off to the Duc and look out...2007 motogp was almost over before it started

[ioan]

I may be wrong but I think when all the points were worked out at the end of the last race even if Mclaren had not had their points stripped Ferrari would still have won the championship, and just my opinion but I think Ferrari will be very hard to beat next year, and I believe Kimi Raikkonen will win his second championship.

And you're right. :up:
Ferrari got more constructors points than McLaren, whom would have however been 2nd in the championship if not for their spying affairs.

[jso1985]

The title of the thread is a bit misleading (are you a journo pino? :D ).
Todt will be the head of Ferrari while Domenicali will be the head of the Sporting Division of Ferrari! ;)

I thought Todt was already Ferrari's head, who was it then?


I may be wrong but I think when all the points were worked out at the end of the last race even if Mclaren had not had their points stripped Ferrari would still have won the championship, and just my opinion but I think Ferrari will be very hard to beat next year, and I believe Kimi Raikkonen will win his second championship.

That's without the Hungarian GP points.
Wihtout any penalty McLaren would have won it

[ioan]

I thought Todt was already Ferrari's head, who was it then?

Todt was head of Ferrari and also head of Gestione Sportiva untill now. From now on he'll stay head of Ferrari with Domenicalli being named head of Gestione Sportiva (including F1).
Todt will still be the boss but he'll have less work to do than before.



That's without the Hungarian GP points.
Wihtout any penalty McLaren would have won it

Yeah but they blew that one up on their own, with no involvement from Ferrari.
Plus it transpired later that the new gearbox casing they use in Hungary wasn't submitted to the the FIA tests.

[Hondo]

Todt was head of Ferrari and also head of Gestione Sportiva untill now. From now on he'll stay head of Ferrari with Domenicalli being named head of Gestione Sportiva (including F1).
Todt will still be the boss but he'll have less work to do than before.



Yeah but they blew that one up on their own, with no involvement from Ferrari.
Plus it transpired later that the new gearbox casing they use in Hungary wasn't submitted to the the FIA tests.

Yeah, I was including Hungary points but with everything else going on I forgot about the gearbox. It all seems so long ago now. Sorry, I retract my points statement.

[wmcot]

JT has to be burned out by now! If I put in all the hours and late nights he has, I would be a basket case. I think he wanted a relief from the pressure. How it will work out - we'll have to wait and see.

[pino]

Believe me when I say I'm not trying to start a war here, but I believe Luca Montezemolo is going to cause Ferrari to slip back into the dark ages...

We'll see.

Luca is a very capable man (just look how many Companies he runs) and all these changes were planned long time ago, and these new young people have been working at Ferrari for long time, and learned enough to be in charge now.

[passmeatissue]

Luca is a very capable man (just look how many Companies he runs) and all these changes were planned long time ago, and these new young people have been working at Ferrari for long time, and learned enough to be in charge now.

I can see how Ferrari could have had enough of their success being put down to a German, a South African, a Frenchman and sundry Brits, but if they go too far down the nationalist road they will lose performance, I think. The talent needed at the top of F1 is so rare, any limitations you put on your choice of people will eventually catch up with you.

I hope Ferrari stay at least fairly international, the integration of nationalities is one of the best things about F1.

[ioan]

... but if they go too far down the nationalist road they will lose performance, I think. The talent needed at the top of F1 is so rare, any limitations you put on your choice of people will eventually catch up with you.

I hope Ferrari stay at least fairly international, the integration of nationalities is one of the best things about F1.

For once we agree. :D

[passmeatissue]

For once we agree. :D

Oh no we don't. :arrows: . Well, OK then. But I still think the floor...

:D :D

[pino]

I can see how Ferrari could have had enough of their success being put down to a German, a South African, a Frenchman and sundry Brits, but if they go too far down the nationalist road they will lose performance, I think. The talent needed at the top of F1 is so rare, any limitations you put on your choice of people will eventually catch up with you.

I hope Ferrari stay at least fairly international, the integration of nationalities is one of the best things about F1.

Nationalities have nothing to do with talent, Michael wasn't good because he was german, neither Todt nor Brown because they were french/british. Luca choosed Domenicali not because is italian but because that was the best option he had in his hand. Luca's not so stupid to put limitations on his choices...

[passmeatissue]

Nationalities have nothing to do with talent, Michael wasn't good because he was german, neither Todt nor Brown because they were french/british. Luca choosed Domenicali not because is italian but because that was the best option he had in his hand. Luca's not so stupid to put limitations on his choices...

I absolutely did not say I think talent is related to nationality. Quite the opposite.

And nothing against Domenicali, who seems a nice guy.

Although it could be mentioned that when testing started this morning, an Italian car immediately had an electrical problem... :p :

[janneppi]

I think what passmeatissue meant was that if there is a desire to limit the choices of personnel to Italians, it would lower the number of choices of talented people to choose from.

[Roamy]

I find it incredible that people are this forum would insinuate that Italians are intellectually challenged and refer to a little toad as "Rat Face" I think you Northern Euros are just jealous because you have to live with all the sausage beasts while the Italians enjoy the beautiful women and the rest awesome products created in Italy!!

[passmeatissue]

I find it incredible that people are this forum would insinuate that Italians are intellectually challenged and refer to a little toad as "Rat Face" I think you Northern Euros are just jealous because you have to live with all the sausage beasts while the Italians enjoy the beautiful women and the rest awesome products created in Italy!!

I'm not impressed with the "rat face" jibe either, but it was aimed at Ross Brawn, not Jean Todt.

Although on that subject Stefano is going to be a big improvement on Jean, in the photogenic stakes :)

[Roamy]

hey passman - I am just joking - I love it all - Toad looks more like a rat while brawn kinds of reminds one of a jeffrey dalmer

[W8&C]

Nationalities have nothing to do with talent, Michael wasn't good because he was german, neither Todt nor Brown because they were french/british. Luca choosed Domenicali not because is italian but because that was the best option he had in his hand. Luca's not so stupid to put limitations on his choices...So you don´t think he will pick Fisichella and Trulli(!) for his italian 09 lineup? :D

[Valve Bounce]

Nationalities have nothing to do with talent, Michael wasn't good because he was german, neither Todt nor Brown because they were french/british. Luca choosed Domenicali not because is italian but because that was the best option he had in his hand. Luca's not so stupid to put limitations on his choices...


I think that when Ferrari hired Brawn, burne and Todt (and Stepney) and put them in strategic positions in the team, Ferrari probably managed to put together the best team available.

Now by not re-hiring Brawn, sidetracking Todt from the F1 operation and losing Stepney after the latter was also sidelined away from the role he played in the F1 operation, they have lost a great team of experts in their field.

It remains to be seen whether the new all Italian team will measure up.

[truefan72]

So you don´t think he will pick Fisichella and Trulli(!) for his italian 09 lineup? :D


LOL

[markabilly]

I think that when Ferrari hired Brawn, burne and Todt (and Stepney) and put them in strategic positions in the team, Ferrari probably managed to put together the best team available.

Now by not re-hiring Brawn, sidetracking Todt from the F1 operation and losing Stepney after the latter was also sidelined away from the role he played in the F1 operation, they have lost a great team of experts in their field.

It remains to be seen whether the new all Italian team will measure up.
You Forgot MS--who was by contract, as much or more team principal there than anyone, and by presence, more of the real leader than anyone else.......

But it is gone on....gone for good...maybe ms WANTS TO DO ONE LAST DRIVE FOR MEMORY'S SAKE, since they will be no one he worked with there, much longer......

[ioan]

I think that when Ferrari hired Brawn, burne and Todt (and Stepney) and put them in strategic positions in the team, Ferrari probably managed to put together the best team available.

Now by not re-hiring Brawn, sidetracking Todt from the F1 operation and losing Stepney after the latter was also sidelined away from the role he played in the F1 operation, they have lost a great team of experts in their field.

It remains to be seen whether the new all Italian team will measure up.

I don't see it exactly that way.

First of all Montezemolo brought in J.Todt back in '93, because he has been a very successful team principal with Peugeot in Rally and Endurance (Le Mans) races.

It was Todt who put together the team starting with MS in 96 and Byrne & Brawn & Stepney in '97.

The same Todt that has decided who will take up the most important position in the team now that Brawn decided to stay in England, Stepney went mad and Todt wants to have a slightly calmer life as head of Ferrari. The people he nominated are people who have been with the team for a long time already, they've been formed and previously worked with the people they are replacing at this moment, so theoretically they should be as good as those who retired from the team.

And why do you call it an "all" Italian team?

The drivers are not Italian, the head of engine development is not Italian, and who knows how many others aren't Italian. :rolleyes:

People thought that Ferrari will fall after Brawn left, well Ferrari is still up there, that's enough proof that the team is very strong.

[Malbec]

The same Todt that has decided who will take up the most important position in the team now that Brawn decided to stay in England, Stepney went mad and Todt wants to have a slightly calmer life as head of Ferrari.

I don't agree with this analysis. By all accounts there has been a power struggle at Ferrari between LdM and Todt with the latter wanting to keep his hand in the raceteam whilst the former wanted Todt to work on the overall company and keep out of racing matters. This was partly driven by the fact that up until Stepneygate reached its conclusion it looked as if Ferrari would be championshipless for three seasons in a row and someone needed to take the responsibility, Todt.

I don't think it was a coincidence that Brawn's move to Honda and Domenicali's promotion to Ferrari team chief were announced on the same day. Whatever reasons Brawn may give for his move to Honda I believe that his first choice would have been to remain at Ferrari and lead it, hence why he insisted on giving Ferrari priority over Honda in his talks over the past year.

Looking at the broader picture there are some advantages to placing a priority on employing people of the same nationality as the team. When things are good and you have a technological march on the opposition it slows down the rate at which other teams copy your ideas as its less likely that your employees move off to other teams. With things so good at Ferrari I can see the temptation to keep promotions in-house.

[ioan]

I don't agree with this analysis. By all accounts there has been a power struggle at Ferrari between LdM and Todt with the latter wanting to keep his hand in the raceteam whilst the former wanted Todt to work on the overall company and keep out of racing matters. This was partly driven by the fact that up until Stepneygate reached its conclusion it looked as if Ferrari would be championshipless for three seasons in a row and someone needed to take the responsibility, Todt.

I don't think it was a coincidence that Brawn's move to Honda and Domenicali's promotion to Ferrari team chief were announced on the same day. Whatever reasons Brawn may give for his move to Honda I believe that his first choice would have been to remain at Ferrari and lead it, hence why he insisted on giving Ferrari priority over Honda in his talks over the past year.

Looking at the broader picture there are some advantages to placing a priority on employing people of the same nationality as the team. When things are good and you have a technological march on the opposition it slows down the rate at which other teams copy your ideas as its less likely that your employees move off to other teams. With things so good at Ferrari I can see the temptation to keep promotions in-house.

I think you are trying to make things look worse than they are.

[BDunnell]

I don't think it was a coincidence that Brawn's move to Honda and Domenicali's promotion to Ferrari team chief were announced on the same day. Whatever reasons Brawn may give for his move to Honda I believe that his first choice would have been to remain at Ferrari and lead it, hence why he insisted on giving Ferrari priority over Honda in his talks over the past year.

No coincidence indeed, but I disagree with the reason you give for that. I never felt that Brawn would return to Ferrari after his sabbatical — why, indeed, did he take a sabbatical if he didn't want to consider his own position there, in the light of his desire to spend more time at home and away from the pressures of F1? Going to Honda allows him to have a slightly less hectic lifestyle while also giving him a new challenge.

If Ferrari really wanted rid of Brawn for the team's recent lack of drivers' titles, then they were being absurdly short-sighted and naive about the nature of F1, and I don't think Ferrari are either of those things. After all, Michael Schumacher didn't deliver Ferrari drivers' titles in those seasons either, yet he's still part of the team!

[Malbec]

I think you are trying to make things look worse than they are.

well, things were clearly bad enough to push a man who had spent more than a decade working for Ferrari to pass its biggest rival team secrets so clearly there are serious rifts of some sort within the team.

[BDunnell]

well, things were clearly bad enough to push a man who had spent more than a decade working for Ferrari to pass its biggest rival team secrets so clearly there are serious rifts of some sort within the team.

Without wishing to dredge this one up too far, it is entirely possible that Stepney had a higher opinion of his own abilities than the team genuinely did; thus, he was passed over for promotion as people are in work, and reacted in a rather extreme fashion.

This is not to say that there aren't questions to be answered as to the allegations regarding Ferrari, Stepney, the alleged sabotage and the alleged white powder, none of which have yet been answered.

[Malbec]

No coincidence indeed, but I disagree with the reason you give for that. I never felt that Brawn would return to Ferrari after his sabbatical — why, indeed, did he take a sabbatical if he didn't want to consider his own position there, in the light of his desire to spend more time at home and away from the pressures of F1? Going to Honda allows him to have a slightly less hectic lifestyle while also giving him a new challenge.

If Ferrari really wanted rid of Brawn for the team's recent lack of drivers' titles, then they were being absurdly short-sighted and naive about the nature of F1, and I don't think Ferrari are either of those things. After all, Michael Schumacher didn't deliver Ferrari drivers' titles in those seasons either, yet he's still part of the team!

My original post wasn't clearly written, sorry.

I meant that LdM was in favour of ousting Todt as a result of the lack of success, not Brawn. Once the Todt situation was resolved either way then the question of his replacement Domenicali or Brawn could be sorted out too. It seems that Todt has failed to succeed in keeping his post at Ferrari F1.

Regarding Brawn and his sabbatical, who knows? One thing he made clear was that Ferrari had first dibbs on his services, why do that if he didn't intend to stay there at all?

I disagree that life at Honda will be any less hectic, if anything his responsibilities will be greater. At Ferrari there was a stable structure that required little tinkering over the past few years. At Honda he has to completely overhaul the team. That IMO will represent a great increase in workload for him. It may be however that his family want him back in the UK and nothing at Ferrari could ever compensate for that.

[BDunnell]

Regarding Brawn and his sabbatical, who knows? One thing he made clear was that Ferrari had first dibbs on his services, why do that if he didn't intend to stay there at all?

Contractually, I should imagine he had to say that, because he was still a Ferrari employee. He was hardly going to say 'I'm available to anyone who wants me' in public, after all.



I disagree that life at Honda will be any less hectic, if anything his responsibilities will be greater. At Ferrari there was a stable structure that required little tinkering over the past few years. At Honda he has to completely overhaul the team. That IMO will represent a great increase in workload for him. It may be however that his family want him back in the UK and nothing at Ferrari could ever compensate for that.

You could very well be right about the workload at Honda, but my feeling is that, for whatever reason, he just felt it time to move on from Ferrari without anything much else being at play. Call me naive in relation to F1, but this does happen at work.

[Malbec]

You could very well be right about the workload at Honda, but my feeling is that, for whatever reason, he just felt it time to move on from Ferrari without anything much else being at play. Call me naive in relation to F1, but this does happen at work.

I agree, I think the idea of facing a new challenge is probably what drew him to Honda, just as it was probably the main factor in drawing him to Ferrari in the first place. I'm just also arguing that the fact that he wasn't given a promotion to the very top at Ferrari F1 was also another factor in pushing him out. From what little I have heard about his new job he has effectively been given the top job at Honda except for the commercial/financial aspects which remain with Fry.

[BDunnell]

I'm just also arguing that the fact that he wasn't given a promotion to the very top at Ferrari F1 was also another factor in pushing him out.

Yes, on reflection, that's perfectly reasonable, though I think one still has to look to the reasons for his sabbatical.

The thought has also crossed my mind as to whether Brawn is somehow irritated with the way certain people in Ferrari have acted in relation to 'Stepneygate' this season just gone, but this is entirely without foundation in anything other than my imagination so I feel rather hypocritical for raising it (unless it is true...) ;)

[ioan]

I'm just also arguing that the fact that he wasn't given a promotion to the very top at Ferrari F1 was also another factor in pushing him out. From what little I have heard about his new job he has effectively been given the top job at Honda except for the commercial/financial aspects which remain with Fry.

Honestly, do you believe that Ross Brawn was denied to be head of Ferrari F1 in favor of Domenicalli?

As you pointed it out previously both Ross Brawn to Honda and Domenicalli up at Ferrari were announced almost simultaneously, and as you said it was no coincidence.
I believe that Ferrari actually waited for Ross and only decided to give the position to Domenicalli after Ross signed with Honda.

[BDunnell]

I believe that Ferrari actually waited for Ross and only decided to give the position to Domenicalli after Ross signed with Honda.

So do I. It's the reasonable thing to do, especially in relation to an employee the company valued as much as Brawn. Ferrari clearly did value Brawn, as it's not stupid.

However, the team could very well have taken the decision to pass over Brawn for that top job. It's a possibility. At present, we don't know for sure what the motivations were. As I said, I suspect that there isn't all that much to it.

[ioan]

The thought has also crossed my mind as to whether Brawn is somehow irritated with the way certain people in Ferrari have acted in relation to 'Stepneygate' this season just gone, but this is entirely without foundation in anything other than my imagination so I feel rather hypocritical for raising it (unless it is true...) ;)

Don't know, he actually went to help Ferrari at the September hearing in Paris. Why would he do that if he wasn't happy with them and knowing that he was not going back to the team? But it's just my opinion about the whole situation.

[BDunnell]

Don't know, he actually went to help Ferrari at the September hearing in Paris. Why would he do that if he wasn't happy with them and knowing that he was not going back to the team? But it's just my opinion about the whole situation.

This is true. Still, he was an employee and his absence might have been 'conspicuous'. As you say, we just don't know.

[Malbec]

Honestly, do you believe that Ross Brawn was denied to be head of Ferrari F1 in favor of Domenicalli?

As you pointed it out previously both Ross Brawn to Honda and Domenicalli up at Ferrari were announced almost simultaneously, and as you said it was no coincidence.
I believe that Ferrari actually waited for Ross and only decided to give the position to Domenicalli after Ross signed with Honda.

It could be the opposite of course, Ross deciding to go for Honda once he didn't get the more responsible job he wanted at Ferrari, the job then going to Domenicali. We'll never know the truth.

[BDunnell]

It could be the opposite of course, Ross deciding to go for Honda once he didn't get the more responsible job he wanted at Ferrari, the job then going to Domenicali. We'll never know the truth.

We may do, but would we know what the truth is amid all the positive, inoffensive spin that gets inserted into many comments about such matters?

[Malbec]

I generally ignore spin. All that matters for me is that Brawn joined Honda and Domenicali got promoted to the job that Brawn would have had at Ferrari with Todt forced out of the team..... Everything else is fluff.

[passmeatissue]

Q. What are your thought on Ross Brawn's move?
MS: I think it's great for him. He called me before to tell me about it

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63933

I suppose Ross was just wondering...

[ioan]

Q. What are your thought on Ross Brawn's move?
MS: I think it's great for him. He called me before to tell me about it

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63933

I suppose Ross was just wondering...

Wondering if it's better to be head of Ferrari's sporting division and having to live in Italy, or Head of the Honda F1 team and living at home in England.

He's not young anymore and 10 years away from home were more than enough.
Personally I've been away for only 7 years with better conditions than at home, but family is family, and some need it more than others.

[passmeatissue]

Wondering if it's better to be head of Ferrari's sporting division and having to live in Italy, or Head of the Honda F1 team and living at home in England.

He's not young anymore and 10 years away from home were more than enough.
Personally I've been away for only 7 years with better conditions than at home, but family is family, and some need it more than others.

What I was meaning was "just wondering if you felt like driving again, Michael" :)

[ioan]

What I was meaning was "just wondering if you felt like driving again, Michael" :)

Diving what the F2007 Ferrari or the MyEarthNightmare?! :D

[ArrowsFA1]

I suppose Ross was just wondering...
I guess it's worth a try :p Honda release Button to McLaren, and sign up Schumi to team up with Ross and Rubens again :D

[SGWilko]

I guess it's worth a try :p Honda release Button to McLaren, and sign up Schumi to team up with Ross and Rubens again :D

This could be classed as conspiracy, but....

What if Ross knew what was coming from Stepney, or had an inkling what might happen.

Or, knowing Schumi was out, not wanting to be associated with a possible down turn in form.......

Or, he was trying to make Ferrari see what they were missing with him out for a year.....

All very legitimate reasons to take a sabbatical.

[markabilly]

This could be classed as conspiracy, but....

What if Ross knew what was coming from Stepney, or had an inkling what might happen.

Or, knowing Schumi was out, not wanting to be associated with a possible down turn in form.......

Or, he was trying to make Ferrari see what they were missing with him out for a year.....

All very legitimate reasons to take a sabbatical.

Or simply to put himself in a superior position to bargain with whoever was willing to step forward, as he now had his "garden leave", and let us suppose Ferrari, in the absence of the MS, was turning back into a soap opera, or Todt did not want to give it up .......


or for none of those reasons, and it was simply to be in position to take advantage of a better deal, if simply someone else came along with the better deal......