Ross Brawn Signed for Honda [confirmed]

[BeeJ_UK]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2007/11/12/smgars112.xml

[Hondo]

Talk about....."Now, for something completely different..." this will be most interesting next year. I hope Honda really does allow him to do what he thinks best. I'll bet Button peed all over himself like an excited poodle when he heard about it.

[Ranger]

I'll wait for the official announcement - haven't seen this anywhere else.

[markabilly]

If so, oooppps ferrari u just blew that one......

[wmcot]

I'll wait for the official announcement - haven't seen this anywhere else.

Me, too! It is the silly season after all.

[Valve Bounce]

I always thought that Brawn had a helluva lot to do with Ferrari's and also SchM's success in F1 races. His timing was uncanny in races, and he seemed to have the races under control at all times.

I just hope that some of his expertise will also result in a similar improvement to Supr Aguri's fortunes.

[ArrowsFA1]

Interesting times for Honda if true :eek: It would be fascinating to see how Brawn turns their fortunes around. He's done it before with Benetton and Ferrari, but he had the same core group of people around him in both cases. It's hard to see the likes of Byrne, Schumacher and Stepney joining him this time :dozey:

[ioan]

Interesting times for Honda if true :eek: It would be fascinating to see how Brawn turns their fortunes around. He's done it before with Benetton and Ferrari, but he had the same core group of people around him in both cases. It's hard to see the likes of Byrne, Schumacher and Stepney joining him this time :dozey:

Why not Stepney, he's a free agent since May or June! :D

[ioan]

I always thought that Brawn had a helluva lot to do with Ferrari's and also SchM's success in F1 races. His timing was uncanny in races, and he seemed to have the races under control at all times.

Yeah, but he needed that the driver does his part properly and that meant turning out perfectly constant qualifying times lap after lap after lap.
Something MS could do, I however doubt Jenson and Rubens are that good.

[ArrowsFA1]

Why not Stepney, he's a free agent since May or June! :D
The point is that success at Benetton and Ferrari was not down to Brawn alone. There were a group of people who combined superbly well, and even then the success took time to come. For example, Brawn joined Ferrari in December 1996. The first title came four years later.

If Brawn joins Honda he'll have a similar rebuilding task on his hands.

[ioan]

For example, Brawn joined Ferrari in December 1996. The first title came four years later.

However they missed the title by very little already in '97!
And would have certainly got both titles in '99 if not for a broken leg. ;)

[SGWilko]

Right. Here is my tuppence ha'penny...

(For all Ferrari fans, I am not stirring)

If this is true, and lord knows I hope it is (my wife is a JB fan, so if he starts winning on a regular basis, I might be on a few more promises come Sunday evenings ;) ) then that is great news, and a real 'shot in the arm' for Honda.

They WILL listen to Ross, and that will be a revolution, because the Japanese management way will stop, and that (in F1 at least) aint no bad thing.

But, he WAS a great asset (although, admittedly, only one part of a 3/4 piece dream team) to Ferrari. With the perceived rift between LD-M and JT, how will that affect the relationship. One would assume Ferrari knew this was on the cards, and measures for RB's replacement are/were in place. But it can only be a hinderence. WIll other 'disgruntled' Ferrari employees start leaving?

Anyway, given how badly in the mire Honda have become, it'll take a Ross a few crates of bananas to sort their stall out, and start making a proper play at the championships. But I hope they can do it........

Can anyone see FA at Honda in 2009?

[SGWilko]

However they missed the title by very little already in '97!
And would have certainly got both titles in '99 if not for a broken leg. ;)

Or, if not for a money grabbing journeyman as a number 2 driver? Sorry, I could not resist. :D

[tinchote]

For example, Brawn joined Ferrari in December 1996. The first title came four years later.


That's a deceiving view: they fought for the title in the last race in 97, 98, and 99.

[ioan]

That's a deceiving view: they fought for the title in the last race in 97, 98, and 99.

Exactly.
So it took them 1 year to be serious championship contenders. Not bad.

Truth is I read somewhere that after MS tested the Ferrari 412T2 after the end of the 95 season he said that he could have won the WDC with that car easily. Make of it what you wish! ;)

[OutRun]

I'm glad that Honda have finally found a qualified person to replace Geoff Willis. Shuhei Nakamoto wasn't exactly the best person for the job. I just hope this doesn't turn into a Gascoyne @ Toyota situation.

Winter testing is just around the corner. Ross Brawn will have his hands full. Not only does he have to fix Honda but he also has to change Honda's approach to F1.

[SGWilko]

Exactly.
Truth is I read somewhere that after MS tested the Ferrari 412T2 after the end of the 95 season he said that he could have won the WDC with that car easily. Make of it what you wish! ;)

Yes, I remember that car, very neat little package that was, given it was packing a v12 (or had they gone the v10 by then?)

I think GB and JA just did not do that car justice.......

[savage86]

It makes me laugh that so many of the rather opinionated posters on this forum said that Honda would never get Ross, and now they have!

I guess its clear that no one knows what will happen in F1.
Even though I dont personally like Ross as a character. As a strategist and engineer though he is one of the best in the Business.
He was always very well thought of in Ferrari, and the British media, maybe because ITV wanted to make a point that a British person had such a key role in the Italian team. I think the most important thing he will bring is decisiveness, from what ive heard the Japanese are terrible at trying to knit pick at problems with the car rather than just designing a new part. Ross should have the ruthlessness to stop things when there going wrong and firing people when there not pulling there weight.

[ioan]

Yes, I remember that car, very neat little package that was, given it was packing a v12 (or had they gone the v10 by then?)

It was the last V12 F1 car. The one that gave Alesi his only win at the '95 Canadian GP.


I think GB and JA just did not do that car justice.......

We will never know, I'm afraid.

[ArrowsFA1]

That's a deceiving view: they fought for the title in the last race in 97, 98, and 99.
Yes they were contenders, but winners? No. I suspect that Ross may take as long to turn Honda around, but winning the WCC within 3 years would be a good start :)

[ioan]

Yes they were contenders, but winners? No. I suspect that Ross may take as long to turn Honda around, but I certainly hope they will be contenders as much as Ferrari were in the years you mention.

They need better drivers for that.

[SGWilko]

They need better drivers for that.

Careful, that statement might come back one day and nip you in the fetlocks..... ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

They need better drivers for that.
In a funny way I suspect that Rubens's place in the team may be a little more secure now, at least for the time being.

[Valve Bounce]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Yes they were contenders, but winners? No. I suspect that Ross may take as long to turn Honda around, but I certainly hope they will be contenders as much as Ferrari were in the years you mention.

Funny that you should misquote Arrows deliberately to make your point. I don't know what to say at this point, but since you were not making a jocular point here, I can only say that it is very poor form. I thought that you'd be above that sort of stuff - only sleazy politicians do that.

[passmeatissue]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Yes they were contenders, but winners? No. I suspect that Ross may take as long to turn Honda around, but I certainly hope they will be contenders as much as Ferrari were in the years you mention.

Funny that you should misquote Arrows deliberately to make your point. I don't know what to say at this point, but since you were not making a jocular point here, I can only say that it is very poor form. I thought that you'd be above that sort of stuff - only sleazy politicians do that.

Well I watched a recent member driven away by crude insults, for putting in a polite challenge (and being an engineer), so I am not surprised.

I am hopeful that Brawn will make a difference quite quickly. I remember a story that the second Honda wind tunnel was put into the control of someone who was not even an aerodynamicist, but someone from HR or accounting or something, but with a big ego. Brawn will put that sort of thing right on Day1.

Then I am hoping they can get up into the midfield during the year.

[rohanweb]

great to see Ross Brawn next year..hope honda will get rid of the pathetic world theme on thier cars..

anyway does his appointment mean Britains favorite boy Jenson Button going to deliver???
he claimed that Lewis Hamilton may not win a WDC.. what a pity? Jenson himself is much less likely to win a wdc.. he should dump honda a try to get a drive from a top team..now how many years it will be then for Ross to deliver??
Bunsen is a looser!

[ArrowsFA1]

Funny that you should misquote Arrows deliberately to make your point.
Not how I saw it Valve. tinchote was just pointing out how close Ferrari had come to winning soon after Ross joined, whereas I just concentrated on the titles they'd won with him at the helm.

While the line between contenders and winners can be a thin one (just look at the WDC this year :eek :) crossing that line is the difference that someone like Ross may make for Honda, and it's winning that counts in F1. To quote Ron Dennis (take cover!!!) "2nd is just the first of the losers" ;)

[seppefan]

They need better drivers for that.

Does this make Honda a long term possibility for Alonso ?

[seppefan]

How does Brawn not put ten years of Ferrari design into the Honda and then not be subject to the FIA.

[SGWilko]

How does Brawn not put ten years of Ferrari design into the Honda and then not be subject to the FIA.

So long as he only 'takes with him' what is in his memory, and not the contents of his Acer Ferrari laptop, he will be fine.

[Hondo]

It's going to be interesting to see who else Brawn can bring with him. For the first time since they became constructors, I now believe Honda is serious about winning the championship.

[hugh_lee]

interesting to know what really transpired behind the scenes,with a similar reorganization at ferrari but with brawn ending up at honda.can anyone remember his reasons for taking the sabattical?

[jens]

Interesting decision. I wonder, how much freedom will he be given in decision-making process, but probably much enough to motivate him to join the team. But it would take some time before seeing some effect - probably 2008 won't mark a significant jump in competitiveness.

I also guess that Honda needs to replace Nakamoto to have better chances of becoming a threat... But maybe that will be done under Brawn's leadership.

[Allyc85]

all im gonna say is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! !

:D :D :D :D

[Hondo]

Did the article say when Michael is to go for his seat fitting?

[truefan72]

First and foremost,
Congrats to RB, this is a great opportunity for a very well qualified individual.
I think that post schumacher, he was lookingfor a new challenge that would stir up his passions again. I'm not sure hewas too enamored by all the cosmetic manegerial decisions that LDM initiated at Ferrari with their "Italians First" mentality. Ferrari IMO was more of an international brand with the best people first rather than ensuring an italian dominace in that department.

For Honda, this is a good move. Even though their 2007 campaign was a total bust, they have all the ingreadients for a successful team. Now they have a top chef. ( and a revised kitchen- the new fixed wind tunnel etc.)


How does Brawn not put ten years of Ferrari design into the Honda and then not be subject to the FIA.

In light of the recent FIA situations it will be interesting to see.
But think of Adrian Newey at RBR. There is no doubt that strong influences from former teams play a key role. And just from a pure IP base, whatever RB has in his head is about a thousand times more valuable and usefull than any dossier can provide. Not only will you get the same exact information straight from the source, but also an insight to the thought process. UNless the FIA puts a scrutineer to monitor all his conversations. LOL


It's going to be interesting to see who else Brawn can bring with him. For the first time since they became constructors, I now believe Honda is serious about winning the championship.

I Think tht they were always serious about winning championships, But just didn't go about it in the right way. But as to who he might bring with him...


Did the article say when Michael is to go for his seat fitting?

... my thoughts exactly. But not as a driver, but more as an integral part of the team. Even though I can see him do some testing for them too.

[VkmSpouge]

A great coup for Honda. I don't think Ross Brawn will be Honda's silver bullet but he will help them start to turn things around. A decent car for 2008 will be another step forward.

[Easy Drifter]

Ross being a highly intelligent man will know how the Japanese usually work. I would expect that he has clauses in his contract that give him full authority without interference from Japan or from current staff. If he starts getting overruled or too much interference I would expect him to be gone within the year.
I also would not be surprised to see a few non Italian Ferrari members arriving as it appears the only non Italians of authority in the team now are the drivers. It was this attitude toward him that started the Stephney saga and now JT is out of the F1 team.
It likely it was this attitude and last year's turmoil that stopped Ross from returning to Ferrari.
I doubt he would hire Nigel but in F1 who knows. I also doubt he would hire Coughlan, who I expect will be gone from McLaren at the end of the year but do not forget he was the man mainly responsible for the McLaren last year. He and Brawn, if they could get along, would be a powerful twosome.
Lots of questions and so far few answers. :vader:

[AJP]

It all comes down to how Brawn will adapt to the Japanese way, and how he can step around this. As the Japanese way at Honda is clearly not working, nor with Toyota, things have to change and maybe the top dudes in Honda have finally come to their senses and realised that their way aint the right way..
This should be very interesting now..I am glad someone of Ross Brawns calibre is in at Honda now. Hopefully this will get them back to the top asap.

[Hawkmoon]

I wouldn't be expecting too much from Honda before the end of the decade. Brawn has a lot further to go to get Honda anywhere near the front than he did when he joined Ferrari. He also doesn't have Schumacher and Byrne, not to mention Todt, to help him.

I think the key to Brawn's success or failure will be how he deals with the Honda people back in Japan. If Fry can insulate him from Honda politics and ideologies then he has a good shot at turning them around. If Brawn has to deal with all that stuff then I think he has little chance.

Someone also raised Newey and Red Bull and I think the analogy is a good one. Red Bull are no closer to the front despite having had Newey onboard for a couple of seasons now. Does anybody really think Brawn and Honda will be any different?

[Sleeper]

I wouldn't be expecting too much from Honda before the end of the decade. Brawn has a lot further to go to get Honda anywhere near the front than he did when he joined Ferrari. He also doesn't have Schumacher and Byrne, not to mention Todt, to help him.

I think the key to Brawn's success or failure will be how he deals with the Honda people back in Japan. If Fry can insulate him from Honda politics and ideologies then he has a good shot at turning them around. If Brawn has to deal with all that stuff then I think he has little chance.

Someone also raised Newey and Red Bull and I think the analogy is a good one. Red Bull are no closer to the front despite having had Newey onboard for a couple of seasons now. Does anybody really think Brawn and Honda will be any different?
In fairness Newey has only worked on the 07 and now 08 cars at RBR and this years car was much closer to the front than any previous car from that team since the Stewart SF3.

Call me an optomist but I think Honda were going to have had a much better year next year anyway, but its much easier to see them getting to the front now than it was last week.

[ioan]

In fairness Newey has only worked on the 07 and now 08 cars at RBR and this years car was much closer to the front than any previous car from that team since the Stewart SF3.

Not really sure about that. There was a season when Jaguar F1 did score podiums and pole positions.

[Sleeper]

Not really sure about that. There was a season when Jaguar F1 did score podiums and pole positions.
I dont remeber Webber getting a pole position in 03 (though he did get a couple of front row starts) and one podium at the Hungaroring, I think, were he drove brilliantly. I seem to remember that car doing much worse in the races than in qualy, kinda like Trulli at Toyota.

[truefan72]

I wouldn't be expecting too much from Honda before the end of the decade. Brawn has a lot further to go to get Honda anywhere near the front than he did when he joined Ferrari. He also doesn't have Schumacher and Byrne, not to mention Todt, to help him.

I think the key to Brawn's success or failure will be how he deals with the Honda people back in Japan. If Fry can insulate him from Honda politics and ideologies then he has a good shot at turning them around. If Brawn has to deal with all that stuff then I think he has little chance.

Someone also raised Newey and Red Bull and I think the analogy is a good one. Red Bull are no closer to the front despite having had Newey onboard for a couple of seasons now. Does anybody really think Brawn and Honda will be any different?

geez folks here act like Honda is some novice team.
I'd say that 2007 was more of an abiration with a cascading effect that couldn't be stopped. With or without Ross RB I fully expect them to be a lot more competitive in 2008.

I do beleive that Honda are in a lot better shape than where Ferrar was when he joined them. IMO they will be right up there with BMW next year.

[ioan]

I dont remeber Webber getting a pole position in 03 (though he did get a couple of front row starts) and one podium at the Hungaroring, I think, were he drove brilliantly. I seem to remember that car doing much worse in the races than in qualy, kinda like Trulli at Toyota.

My bad, I've mistaken Webber front row start with a pole position.
But I'm quite sure that E. Irvine got on the podium driving a Jaguar F1, which is not a bad effort and is comparable if not better than what RedBull achieved up to this date with Newey or without him.

[jso1985]

Without other key people like Byrne, Schumacher, Todt or Stepney. Brown will have a much thougher challenge.

Taking count Honda's shape now compared to Ferrari's one in 1996, I don't think Honda will start getting results until 2010 and they need a better driver for that

[ioan]

geez folks here act like Honda is some novice team.
I'd say that 2007 was more of an abiration with a cascading effect that couldn't be stopped. With or without Ross RB I fully expect them to be a lot more competitive in 2008.

I do beleive that Honda are in a lot better shape than where Ferrar was when he joined them. IMO they will be right up there with BMW next year.

:eek: I can't believe what I'm reading!
You must be kidding.
Ferrari did win GP's regularly before RB joined them, they also were 3rd (distant 3rd) in the championship in 95.
How can you say that Honda are at this moment in a better shape than Ferrari were back then :?:
This must be the biggest flop in the history of the forum. :rolleyes:

They will be right up there with BMW next season? Maybe if BMW send them a large package containing the full design of their 2008 car, and never complain to the FIA about it! And even than the MW drivers are way better than Honda's.

[Hawkmoon]

In fairness Newey has only worked on the 07 and now 08 cars at RBR and this years car was much closer to the front than any previous car from that team since the Stewart SF3.

Call me an optomist but I think Honda were going to have had a much better year next year anyway, but its much easier to see them getting to the front now than it was last week.

I'd say Red Bull have gone down hill since their first year. After taking over Jaguar they had a very good year. The RB2 and Newey's RB3 haven't been as good, at least not in the results column. So after 18 months - 2 years on the job and Newey hasn't turned Red Bull into consistent points scorers, let alone winners.

That's not purely a criticism of Newey, although I think he's a little overrated as a designer. It just shows how bloody hard it is to get to the top in F1.


geez folks here act like Honda is some novice team.
I'd say that 2007 was more of an abiration with a cascading effect that couldn't be stopped. With or without Ross RB I fully expect them to be a lot more competitive in 2008.

I do beleive that Honda are in a lot better shape than where Ferrar was when he joined them. IMO they will be right up there with BMW next year.

When Honda stop acting like a novice team, I'll stop referring to them that way.

Honda have been on a steady decline since the '04 BAR team lead by David Richards were consistent podium finishers. You want to talk about aberations? Hungary '06 was an aberation. Though Button drove extremely well, the car wasn't even in the same ballpark as the Ferrari and the Renault.

How could 2008 not be better than 2007? It couldn't be any worse! 6 points in 17 races for a well-funded manufacturer-owned team! They only managed to beat Spyker and Super Aguri in the WCC. For a factory team that's woeful.

I also disagree with the notion that Honda are in better shape than Ferrari were when Brawn came over from Benetton. Don't forget, Brawn didn't join Ferrari until '97, the year after Schumacher made the switch. So when Brawn and Byrne joined in '97, Schumacher, Todt and Martinelli were already in place. Schumacher won 3 races in '96 and 5 in '97 in cars designed by John Barnard. The first Brawn/Byrne Ferrari was the F300 of '98. Ferrari were winning races and competing for championships before Brawn could have any real influence on the design of the car.

That's not the case with Honda. Nick Fry is no Jean Todt. Button is no Schumacher and whoever-the-hell is designing the car can't hold a candle to Rory Byrne.

Brawn is a great acquisition, but it's going to take several seasons and more talent acquisition before Honda will be winning enough races to be contenders.

[winer]

With or without Ross RB I fully expect them to be a lot more competitive in 2008.

I do beleive that Honda are in a lot better shape than where Ferrar was when he joined them. IMO they will be right up there with BMW next year.

The 2008 car will already be largely completed the design process, so it is highly unlikely that RB will be able to effect great change next year, especially with the drivers they will have.

[Valve Bounce]

Had Ferrari been able to offer Brawn the role of team principal he would probably have remained in Italy. Fry will have had no hesitation in stepping aside as he can now use his expertise to develop business and marketing strategies, including taking Honda's environmental marketing concept to the next level, while managing the relationship with the board in Japan.

Brawn has free reign over the whole engineering enterprise and on-track grand prix activity. At Honda he will have at his disposal engineering resources the equal of Ferrari fired by a burning desire to win. His appointment represents a shift in thinking for which Fry must take much of the credit. The team have floundered not for want of effort or cash but because of a lack of expertise in winning races. A management culture unsuited to Formula One, which requires decisions to be taken quickly by one man, not by committee, failed to deliver.


This tells me that Ross might have control over what goes on with racing at Honda and probably the direction of R&D to achieve improvements to the car's performance.

It must be realised that before SchM arrived at Ferrari, they were winning 2 races in 3 years. I feel that SchM had a great influence in the team's performance, as he was one of the top 3 drivers at the time. Of course with the arrival of Ross Brawn, Ferrari's results improved markedly.

There is also the probablity that Honda will improve from it's nadir of the 2007 season. Honda's drivers are also not as bad as this past season has indicated. All, in all, Ross Brawns arrival will improve the team's preformance, and by how much only time will tell.

[Ranger]

My bad, I've mistaken Webber front row start with a pole position.
But I'm quite sure that E. Irvine got on the podium driving a Jaguar F1, which is not a bad effort and is comparable if not better than what RedBull achieved up to this date with Newey or without him.

Yeah, the Jag's had several starts on the front 2 rows courtesy of Webber and maybe Irvine, though in 5 years the team scored only 1 podium, at Monaco in 2001. Mind you, this is with Ford backing as well, so I can't really say it would be any better than what Red Bull have done in 3 years.

Newey has been employed since 2005, but because of gardening leave has only designed the RB3 of this year, which was better than the RB2 of '06.

Back to Honda...

Honda won't be winners next year, I'm pretty sure. They may be winners down the line though, but Brawn is only the traffic controller and he can't make the car any better. As mentioned, Fry and Nakamoto aren't Byrne and Todt either, so that'll need to be addressed, as well as the Japanese connection with the bosses.

[Roamy]

I think the playing field is being leveled which is great for us fans. Money has been the greatest factor in success whereas now some teams will have the ability to advance because you won't be able to just "Buy" you way to the front. F1 has taken a step in the right direction

[wmcot]

Good luck Ross! It will be interesting to see what changes he can make and how he relates to the Japanese management by committee. If Honda gives him some leash, he'll improve their team. If not he'll become frustrated quickly. It would be nice to add another competitive team at the top if he can pull it off!

[ArrowsFA1]

I think the key to Brawn's success or failure will be how he deals with the Honda people back in Japan. If Fry can insulate him from Honda politics and ideologies then he has a good shot at turning them around. If Brawn has to deal with all that stuff then I think he has little chance.
My guess is that will be exactly Fry's role :up:

[greencroft]

I think an important part of the signing of Brawn will be the confidence it will give to others to join the Honda team now. Before Brawn was committed, I could see that others in F1 would have been pretty wary of joining Honda given its previous form on team management. Now I think the "if it's good enough for Brawn, then it's good enough for me" attitude may win over and Honda will be able quickly to gather together a stronger team right through.

With the changes going on in Ferrari management just now where previously stability at the top has been a key attribute, there may be some easy disaffected pickings found at Maranello?

[Malbec]

With the changes going on in Ferrari management just now where previously stability at the top has been a key attribute, there may be some easy disaffected pickings found at Maranello?

I had exactly the same thought, when I heard the news my first question wasn't 'why did he join Honda' but 'why didn't he join Ferrari?'. It really does suggest that there are serious upheavals going on in Italy what with Todt effectively being ousted on the same day too. There will always be disaffected staff to pick up not just by Honda but by others too in such a situation.

[janneppi]

As said by many (me included ;) ) Ferrari was seen asn MS's team and after he quit it's inevitable there is change in key personnel, it will be interesting to see if they can remain as one of top teams in the future if there isn't a pulling force like MS in the team anymore.
Kimi isn't such a figure, neither is Massa.

[seppefan]

[quote="ioan"] :eek: I can't believe what I'm reading!
You must be kidding.
Ferrari did win GP's regularly before RB joined them, they also were 3rd (distant 3rd) in the championship in 95.
How can you say that Honda are at this moment in a better shape than Ferrari were back then :?:

quote]
Quote Ross Brawn ""But Honda are much closer to where you need to be to get to the top in F1 than Ferrari were. When I joined them back in 1997 they did not even have a design office at Maranello."

[Malbec]

As said by many (me included ;) ) Ferrari was seen asn MS's team and after he quit it's inevitable there is change in key personnel, it will be interesting to see if they can remain as one of top teams in the future if there isn't a pulling force like MS in the team anymore.
Kimi isn't such a figure, neither is Massa.

I don't think thats the case as much as that with Todt given a more senior post a lot of people beneath him were expecting a promotion. Bearing in mind that many of the senior personnel at Ferrari had stayed in the same position for a decade or so its only natural some would start asking for a promotion or leaving for a team that would allow them that. Brawn is only the second to do so after Stepney's rather clumsy efforts to depart for a better position in another team.

[ioan]

:eek: I can't believe what I'm reading!
You must be kidding.
Ferrari did win GP's regularly before RB joined them, they also were 3rd (distant 3rd) in the championship in 95.
How can you say that Honda are at this moment in a better shape than Ferrari were back then :?:



Quote Ross Brawn ""But Honda are much closer to where you need to be to get to the top in F1 than Ferrari were. When I joined them back in 1997 they did not even have a design office at Maranello."

So he gives some thumbs ups to his new employer.
But does he actually believe that a team that gathered 6 points in a season (yeah that's Honda in 2007) is better than a team that won 3 races and got plenty of podiums back in 96?!

Results speak for themselves, and Ferrari had a design office, not at Maranello but in England.
If moving their design office from one place to another would be Honda's only problem than I would say they are in a good shape, but they have more than one design offices, in England and Japan, and they were still pants. :rolleyes:

[ioan]

I don't think thats the case as much as that with Todt given a more senior post a lot of people beneath him were expecting a promotion. Bearing in mind that many of the senior personnel at Ferrari had stayed in the same position for a decade or so its only natural some would start asking for a promotion or leaving for a team that would allow them that. Brawn is only the second to do so after Stepney's rather clumsy efforts to depart for a better position in another team.

Brawn would have got the position of head of the Sporting Operations at Ferrari if he would have really wanted it.
But he left Ferrari 1 year ago because he was tired, and because he wanted to spend time with his family. Living in Italy with his family back in England was not a choice anymore after he spent a full year with them.

Honda are based in England, so he was more than happy to accept a job back home, instead of the same job thousands of miles away.

Believe me I know what it means to work far from home, and he did it for 10 years. More than enough.

[jens]

It's quite funny that despite all those setbacks Honda consistently remains to be an overrated team. The only year, when the BAR/Honda structure performed over expectations, was 2004, on other occasions they have underperformed. Although some people say that 2006 was pretty good, then it was a failure as based on winter tests Honda was expecting to fight for the title - so much about that! And even before the start of the 2007 season they were overrated. Based on winter tests people somehow couldn't believe that they can be so crap and thought Honda was sandbagging. I thought 2007 would bring everyone down to Earth, but for some reason it hasn't happen. There's zero chance (okay, maybe an overexaggeration as nothing in this world is impossible, but you get my point) Honda will compete with BMW next year. I recommend to take a sceptical attitude about Honda's 2008 performance not to get disappointed again. Top6 finish in the WCC is basically maximum. And in the long run (2009, 2010) I don't really expect Honda to become a title contender, maybe to regain their 2006 form at best. They need to change a lot more than just hiring Brawn.


Yeah, the Jag's had several starts on the front 2 rows courtesy of Webber and maybe Irvine, though in 5 years the team scored only 1 podium, at Monaco in 2001.

Actually 2 podiums - 2002 Italy too. ;)

And let's get the facts right. I have noticed that in this thread here have been given all kinds of variants about Webber's starting grid positions during his Jaguar career. He has started from the front row only for once plus he has started from 3rd pos on three occasions.

[BDunnell]

Brawn would have got the position of head of the Sporting Operations at Ferrari if he would have really wanted it.
But he left Ferrari 1 year ago because he was tired, and because he wanted to spend time with his family. Living in Italy with his family back in England was not a choice anymore after he spent a full year with them.

Honda are based in England, so he was more than happy to accept a job back home, instead of the same job thousands of miles away.

Believe me I know what it means to work far from home, and he did it for 10 years. More than enough.

I agree with this, though I would love to work away from my home country!

Being realistic, Brawn must have realised when he took his year's sabbatical for the above reasons that his time with Ferrari was pretty much over, so long as they didn't have an awful season that could be attributed to his absence. Clearly, they didn't.

[ArrowsFA1]

So he gives some thumbs ups to his new employer.
But does he actually believe that a team that gathered 6 points in a season (yeah that's Honda in 2007) is better than a team that won 3 races and got plenty of podiums back in 96?!
It terms of results no, but in terms of facilities and structure then Honda possibly are ahead of the Ferrari circa 1996.

[BDunnell]

It terms of results no, but in terms of facilities and structure then Honda possibly are ahead of the Ferrari circa 1996.

That's as maybe, but without a Michael Schumacher, it surely won't be possible to have the same effect.

[ioan]

It terms of results no, but in terms of facilities and structure then Honda possibly are ahead of the Ferrari circa 1996.

In absolute comparison yes, but relative to the other teams I doubt it.

[BDunnell]

And, in any case, I doubt it's fair to compare the infrastructure of an F1 team 11 years ago with today, just as making comparisons between drivers of different eras is impossible. Things are too different.

[SGWilko]

Not really sure about that. There was a season when Jaguar F1 did score podiums and pole positions.

Yes, that was when Tony Purnell and whats his name were at the helm. Then Ford sold it, Diddy brought it and sacked the management!

Hopefully honda will have a much faster car next year with him on board.

[Bagwan]

I thought I'd bring this back to the top , as I just remembered something .

Stepney and Coughlan are said to have met with Honda , with aspirations of getting jobs there , both unhappy with where they were .
There was wild speculation at the time that Brawn was part of the group , but it was seen as just that , wild speculation .

Now one has to wonder if Ross will get any of the Stepney-gate dirt on him , as it seems like the wild speculation just might have been correct .

If it was , think about what the package consisted of , with the designs , potentially , of the 2 top teams , and arguably the best strategist in the game . That's a hell of an offer .

When does Nigel's trial start ?
Will Ross be called in ?

[SteveA]

Hopefully honda will have a much faster car next year with him on board.

He's a big bloke, it'll slow it down ;)

[janneppi]

I thought I'd bring this back to the top , as I just remembered something .

Stepney and Coughlan are said to have met with Honda , with aspirations of getting jobs there , both unhappy with where they were .
There was wild speculation at the time that Brawn was part of the group , but it was seen as just that , wild speculation .

Now one has to wonder if Ross will get any of the Stepney-gate dirt on him , as it seems like the wild speculation just might have been correct .

If it was , think about what the package consisted of , with the designs , potentially , of the 2 top teams , and arguably the best strategist in the game . That's a hell of an offer .

When does Nigel's trial start ?
Will Ross be called in ?
Ferrari probably doesn't want Braw answering question asked by Stepney's lawyer, something unpleasant might come out.

[SGWilko]

Ferrari probably doesn't want Braw answering question asked by Stepney's lawyer, something unpleasant might come out.

Well, that may be the case, but Stepney's lawyer can just subphoena (spelling?) him anyway.

Can you imagine the stories Ross could tell, he'll make a fortune later in life as an after dinner speaker at the McLaren motorhome!!! :D

[Bagwan]

Even more interesting , as a witness , would be Nick Fry .

I would suggest that he would place Stepney as organizer of the splinter group .
I speculated about why Stepney would send the plans to Coughlan in the first place , and the only logical explanation I could think of was that it was proof that he was serious about them going to Honda with an offer .
A set of plans would show Coughlan that not only was he serious , but that he could pull it off . A copy , done without Ron's knowledge , would be made , and the plans would then be slipped back in to the factory at Modena .

Trouble was , though , that Stepney was already being watched .
Trouble also , because Coughlan was using the info . This may have started only after the approach was turned down .

That was a good move from Fry , but it begs the question as to whether Brawn's name was attached to the gambit or not .
If it was , then Fry chose the only member of the group that wasn't dirty , at least if he didn't know about the 2 sets of plans .

[ArrowsFA1]

Stepney and Coughlan are said to have met with Honda , with aspirations of getting jobs there , both unhappy with where they were .
There was wild speculation at the time that Brawn was part of the group , but it was seen as just that , wild speculation .

Now one has to wonder if Ross will get any of the Stepney-gate dirt on him , as it seems like the wild speculation just might have been correct.
The source of that speculation was Stepney, who mentioned RB as one of those at Ferrari who may have been interested in moving from the team. Stepney has, of course, been discredited by his former employer who described him as having "gone mad".

The source of that speculation was Stepney, who mentioned RB as one of those at Ferrari who may have been interested in moving from the team. Stepney has, of course, been discredited by his former employer who described him as having "gone mad".

Oh, so that proves beyond doubt that Stepney didn't really do anything that could be considered as an act of madness?

[Bagwan]

Certainly , having Ross now at Honda , puts Honda in the thick of it , too .

Just what was offered to Fry at that meeting ?
He denied any knowledge of plans being offered , but how else was it a logical thing to have a chief mechanic at one team and a designer at another placing an offer together ? It doesn't seem too clever , unless you have more to offer than the sum of the 2 positions .

That would be 2 sets of plans , and possibly a strategist as well .

Now that the strategist is now working for the team it was speculated that got the offer , perhaps they just cherry-picked Ross from the bunch , and we'll see how Nigel feels about being left holding the bag of powder .

[Malbec]

I thought I'd bring this back to the top , as I just remembered something .

Stepney and Coughlan are said to have met with Honda , with aspirations of getting jobs there , both unhappy with where they were .
There was wild speculation at the time that Brawn was part of the group , but it was seen as just that , wild speculation .

Now one has to wonder if Ross will get any of the Stepney-gate dirt on him , as it seems like the wild speculation just might have been correct .

If it was , think about what the package consisted of , with the designs , potentially , of the 2 top teams , and arguably the best strategist in the game . That's a hell of an offer .

When does Nigel's trial start ?
Will Ross be called in ?

The only problem with that is Honda started pursuing Brawn about two years or so ago with serious negotiations going on for more than a year. The process surrounding his transfer began far before Stepneygate.

It doesn't make for much of a conspiracy if the team that pursued Brawn told Stepney and Coughlan that they weren't interested in their services after just one meeting. What is the connection you're trying to make?

[Valve Bounce]

Let's not be silly here. I think Honda would have better photocopy facillities than the one Trudy used down in the village.

[Easy Drifter]

Not if they were installed by the same people who calibrated the wind tunnel.

[Valve Bounce]

Not if they were installed by the same people who calibrated the wind tunnel.


I forgot about that :(

[Bagwan]

The only problem with that is Honda started pursuing Brawn about two years or so ago with serious negotiations going on for more than a year. The process surrounding his transfer began far before Stepneygate.

It doesn't make for much of a conspiracy if the team that pursued Brawn told Stepney and Coughlan that they weren't interested in their services after just one meeting. What is the connection you're trying to make?

Well , how about this ?
Brawn negotiates to get plans from both the reds and Macs , but Fry gets cold feet .
Or , Stepney hears about Brawn going to Honda and sweetens the deal to get a job with plans from 2 top teams .
Or , Honda dangles Brawn in front of Stepney and Fry to get plans .
Or , Honda , using Brawn as lure , coaxes Stepney and Coughlan into a scandalous position , and leaves them high and dry .

Any of the above are possible scenarios .
Renault , Ferrari , and McLaren might yet be joined by Honda , once the Stepney trial begins .

It might be that Brawn is clean as a whistle in all this , I should add .
I hope so . I hope his new team is as well .

[ArrowsFA1]

Oh, so that proves beyond doubt that Stepney didn't really do anything that could be considered as an act of madness?
Once again you chose to put your own spin on my words.

RB's move to Honda suggests there may have been something to what Stepney said about a group in Ferrari looking to move - including Ross Brawn. If true then that raises questions about a man "gone mad" and having been completely discredited.

These are not absolutes, or facts. Just opinion for the purpose of discussion.

If true then that raises questions about a man "gone mad" and having been completely discredited.

Now that, dear Arrows, is real spin.

Brawn left Ferrari's employment at the end of 2006, taking a sabbatical.

Since a sabbatical means that you have the option to return or not, it's therefore reasonable to assume that Ross Brawn may well have been considering not returning and head for a new challenge.

That is what has transpired, and to that extent Stepney may well have been right in his opinion that Ross Brawn was looking for a new challenge. As somebody no longer employed by Ferrari, he was free to do so.

However, to try to pin that as counter-argument to Jean Todt's assesment that, following Stepneys decision to start giving classified info to a rivals employee, Stepney had "gone mad" is, quite frankly, absurd.

I should be surprised that a man of your apparent knowledge and intelligence should try to spin the outcome of one seperate story to suit the requirements of your view of another.

But having seen how you take every opportunity, no matter how trivial (and in this case without any validity or merit to your argument) to criticize the Scuderia............yet never once do the same to a team whose own modus operandi has caused them to be fined a record sum and have all their constructors points removed rather shows that it is you who are trying the Shane Warne action.

[ArrowsFA1]

...to that extent Stepney may well have been right in his opinion that Ross Brawn was looking for a new challenge. As somebody no longer employed by Ferrari, he was free to do so.

However, to try to pin that as counter-argument to Jean Todt's assesment that, following Stepneys decision to start giving classified info to a rivals employee, Stepney had "gone mad" is, quite frankly, absurd..
Stepney mentioned Brawn in connection with Honda and he has been seen to be right in making that connection.

In the context of Todt's "gone mad" comment, and the efforts made to discredit Stepney at every opportunity in some quarters, it raises reasonable questions about just how "mad" the man is.

Stepney mentioned Brawn in connection with Honda and he has been seen to be right in making that connection.

In the context of Todt's "gone mad" comment, and the efforts made to discredit Stepney at every opportunity in some quarters, it raises reasonable questions about just how "mad" the man is.

But Todt's comments were not made in the same context. Todt was referring to Stepneys actions in giving dossiers to rivals, as you well know.

Any attempt to put them into the Brawn-To-Honda context is spin and nothing but spin.

Not very good spin at that.

[ArrowsFA1]

But Todt's comments were not made in the same context. Todt was referring to Stepneys actions in giving dossiers to rivals.
Ahhh, so Stepney can be described as having "gone mad" when it suits. Glad we cleared that one up.

Ahhh, so Stepney can be described as having "gone mad" when it suits. Glad we cleared that one up.

Yet more spin from the spinmeister.

It is pretty obvious that there was a time when Nigel Stepney was a professional, loyal employee not prone to acts of madness and professional suicide.

It is pretty obvious that, sometime in early 2007, he stopped being a professional and loyal employee and started to indulge in acts of madness and professional suicide.

It is pretty obvious that someone who refuses to make that distinction and instead uses pre-dossier events and statements to claim that it is reasonable to suggest that Stepney did not commit acts of madness and professional suicide is nothing more than a practitioner of spin and is conducting nothing more than a spiteful and grossly misleading campaign.

[ioan]

Yet more spin from the spinmeister.


Nah, his just the denial master, his spins are to obvious. :s

[AJP]

If there is no SPIN, the world stops....
anything and everything can happen in F1, so don't think these allegations are completely false or true, as not one person here (apart from giving there opinion) has any real idea of what the hell is actually happening out there..

[schmenke]

I'm getting dizzy...

[AJP]

;)

[ArrowsFA1]

It is pretty obvious that someone who refuses to make that distinction and instead uses pre-dossier events and statements to claim that it is reasonable to suggest that Stepney did not commit acts of madness and professional suicide is nothing more than a practitioner of spin and is conducting nothing more than a spiteful and grossly misleading campaign.
For goodness sake :rolleyes: "Misleading campaign"? :laugh: The only thing I am offering as an opinion is that here we have one aspect of Stepney's story that has been seen to have credibility. Given that there are those who have set out to dismantle any credibility Stepney has as a respected F1 engineer of long standing, and as a person, that is worth noting.

That's all. Nothing more.

What I don't appreciate, enjoy or find acceptable are the personal nature of your comments made in response to my posts over a period of time so goodbye :wave:

[leopard]

I'm getting dizzy...

What are Axle and Slash doing now?

[ioan]

What I don't appreciate, enjoy or find acceptable are the personal nature of your comments made in response to my posts over a period of time so goodbye :wave:

Arrows, I would have thought that you would take the criticism of your opinions with a bit more dignity.
But it seems to me that as soon as someone dares to contradict you several times with logical arguments that you can't deny, you just throw the toys out of the pram instead of acknowledging that you were wrong.
So you are less open to dialogs than you state.

Just my 2 cents, on your above post.

[passmeatissue]

Arrows, I would have thought that you would take the criticism of your opinions with a bit more dignity.
But it seems to me that as soon as someone dares to contradict you several times with logical arguments that you can't deny, you just throw the toys out of the pram instead of acknowledging that you were wrong.
So you are less open to dialogs than you state.

Just my 2 cents, on your above post.

Pardon????

[ioan]

Pardon????

No pardon. Mind your own business. :mad:

[janneppi]

I suggest you all take it back to the original topic and keep your personal comments to yourselves.
I'm getting sick of you lot taking every opportunity to stick a little jab into your fellow forumites, if you can't get along, then ****ing ignore each others or leave.

[scaliwag]

Stepney mentioned Brawn in connection with Honda and he has been seen to be right in making that connection.

In the context of Todt's "gone mad" comment, and the efforts made to discredit Stepney at every opportunity in some quarters, it raises reasonable questions about just how "mad" the man is.

Stepney mentioned Brawn in connection with Honda and he has been seen to be right in making that connection.

Arrows.
You are, as usual correct Stepney did mention Brawn plus others, why Tam is disputing your statement is beyond me.

Regards scaliwag.

Stepney mentioned Brawn in connection with Honda and he has been seen to be right in making that connection.

Arrows.
You are, as usual correct Stepney did mention Brawn plus others, why Tam is disputing your statement is beyond me.



I suggest you re-read the posts, paying attention to what has been put.

I am not disputing that Stepney mentioned Brawn, nor that he was right to make that connection.

I was stating that it is wholly incorrect to assume from that the notion that it undermines Jean Todt's later statements regarding Stepney's mental state during and after the Spygate affair.

The two are seperate issues.

[passmeatissue]

I suggest you all take it back to the original topic and keep your personal comments to yourselves.
I'm getting sick of you lot taking every opportunity to stick a little jab into your fellow forumites, if you can't get along, then ****ing ignore each others or leave.

But it's quite likely to be the polite, constructive forumers who leave. Even in my short time here I have seen a new member driven away by insults. IMO the mods should raise the general standard with a few decisive permanent bans. The rest of us are powerless, after all, to do anything, apart from look for another forum. You can see that if we offer any objection, the posts instantly go personal and rude. Reporting a post seems to get it deleted, but that's all.

[janneppi]

But it's quite likely to be the polite, constructive forumers who leave. Even in my short time here I have seen a new member driven away by insults. IMO the mods should raise the general standard with a few decisive permanent bans. The rest of us are powerless, after all, to do anything, apart from look for another forum. You can see that if we offer any objection, the posts instantly go personal and rude. Reporting a post seems to get it deleted, but that's all.
What you can do is ignore the the people you deem not worth of your time and effort, either using the ignore function, which unfortunately is pretty bad, or simply not replying or reading their posts. Before I came a mod here I used both methods with some success.

You are not obliged to talk to everyone who wants to talk to you. Neither are other members in any way obliged to talk to you.

[passmeatissue]

What you can do is ignore the the people you deem not worth of your time and effort, either using the ignore function, which unfortunately is pretty bad, or simply not replying or reading their posts. Before I came a mod here I used both methods with some success.

You are not obliged to talk to everyone who wants to talk to you. Neither are other members in any way obliged to talk to you.

Well OK, and I know it's not easy, but I don't think leaving the rude members to it, and blaming everybody equally when the inevitable happens, is the answer.

In this exchange, member1 was a bit rude, but he and member2 might have worked things out if member3 hadn't put in a personal attack on member2, then another one, then one on me. It wasn't "you lot" who caused the problem, it was one individual.

A individual who repeatedly breaks the rules, but is never penalised.

[janneppi]

Members 1 and 3 can rest assured that if and when I get irritted enough of their behaviour, I'll boot them off the forum for a small period of time It's been in the air for a while. ;)
And I doubt members 1 and 2 are ever going to get along, they've been doing their little song and dance number for years now. :p :

now, back to the original topic what ever it might have been.

[SGWilko]

Members 1 and 3 can rest assured that if and when I get irritted enough of their behaviour, I'll boot them off the forum for a small period of time It's been in the air for a while. ;)
And I doubt members 1 and 2 are ever going to get along, they've been doing their little song and dance number for years now. :p :

now, back to the original topic what ever it might have been.

I see panto season has arrived early this year......

Nudge nudge, wink wink, know what I mean?

;)

[Bagwan]

Well now , didn't I open a can of worms .
It was me . I admit it .
I brought this thread back to the front page with a suggestion that Honda might know a little more about this Stepney-gate issue than has been previously stated , and Ross's signing might be related .

I poked the bee's nest . I pulled the tiger's tail . I kicked the sumo wrestler .

Whether Ross had anything to do with the scandal or not will come out . Stepney will not go down alone .
That's if it ever goes to trial .
We've seen a "crisis meeting" with all the other teams , and I'll bet there are separate meetings going on with the few who were not there , trying to work out how to keep it all behind closed doors .

[markabilly]

What you can do is ignore the the people you deem not worth of your time and effort, either using the ignore function, which unfortunately is pretty bad, or simply not replying or reading their posts. Before I came a mod here I used both methods with some success.

You are not obliged to talk to everyone who wants to talk to you. Neither are other members in any way obliged to talk to you.


Or you and a number of the posters here should wake up and realize this racing stuff is for fun and entertainment, no children are being left homeless on the streets to starve, or get shot by drive by shooters trying to prove they are man enough to be a member of a gang, or getting blown to bits by some religious nut case trying to protect them from those evil infidels, or flown into a building in the name of god, or burned by napalm.......


Even more fun should be the same for any forum on the subject of the comic soap opera that F1 has become......so when folks just get so excited and inflamed, their little noses all stuck up in the air, want to leave or use their ignore button because their nerves/ego just can not take it......or just become so personally insulting to one another as though we are accusing one another of causing the death of children.. :bigcry: ...........well, gee, what fun it is, :bounce: :s pin: :rotflmao:

Shame on you bagwan for pulling the tiger's tail and poking bee's nest!!! HOW DARE YOU!!!

THIS IS SERIOUS BUSINESS!!!!!!!!

[FlatChatRacer]

Back to Topic,

Signing Ross Brawn is a masterstroke. Now, if Honda want to accelerate the rediscovery of their 2006 form, then they should re-hire Geoff Willis. If isn't available then either Mike Gascoyne or Sergio Rinland would do the job.

I think it will take time for Honda to challenge for wins again, but if they make the right moves, watch out for Honda in 2009 and Button to be a consistent front runner.

[passmeatissue]

Back to Topic,

Signing Ross Brawn is a masterstroke. Now, if Honda want to accelerate the rediscovery of their 2006 form, then they should re-hire Geoff Willis. If isn't available then either Mike Gascoyne or Sergio Rinland would do the job.

I think it will take time for Honda to challenge for wins again, but if they make the right moves, watch out for Honda in 2009 and Button to be a consistent front runner.

I agree. He's the kind of guy everyone will gather around and raise their performance for. Also I get the impression some big improvements can be made just putting aerodynamicists in charge of the wind tunnels...

I'm hoping they'll move up to around 7th team or so in the course of the season, and maybe Jense can take it to some of the midfield.

[ClarkFan]

Yeah, but he needed that the driver does his part properly and that meant turning out perfectly constant qualifying times lap after lap after lap.
Something MS could do, I however doubt Jenson and Rubens are that good.

No question MS was/is better than the current crew at Honda. But Brawn should represent a major upgrade over Fry, and Honda had to fix that first.

Until the whole team and its design process is improved, there was no point in shooting for a top grade driver (and the current ones are better than 2007 results indicate). Put a top driver in a slug and what do your get? A well-driven slug, but not a race winner.

Honda has to stop producing slugs before they can worry about whether a given driver is a potential champion - and that is why you bring in Brawn. And for him to sign, I assume he has been given free reign in staffing the team. There would be no good reason for him to leave Ferrari is his ability to run Honda as he sees fit is hampered.

ClarkFan
S2000 vanity license plate "GP HONDA"

[Valve Bounce]

Back to Topic,

Signing Ross Brawn is a masterstroke. Now, if Honda want to accelerate the rediscovery of their 2006 form, then they should re-hire Geoff Willis. If isn't available then either Mike Gascoyne or Sergio Rinland would do the job.



Or Coughney and Steplan could fill the breach. :p :

[markabilly]

Or Coughney and Steplan could fill the breach. :p :


"you get the best of both worlds" (from Hanna Montana-and if you have daughters under age ten, you know who she is) :D