Renault investigated by FIA !

[bontebempo]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7085098.stm

this is getting out of hand and making F1 a laughing stock!

[Robinho]

IF they have been cheating then they deserve investigating and punishing the same way as McLaren, the precedent has been set, and IF they have been cheating i think that everyone on the grid will be a whole lot more careful with both there own information, and their sources of information in the future as the penalties are so severe.

personally i'd think the fact that they have enough on the case to bring a charge against Renault is the worrying thing, indicating that the spying saga is potentially quite prevavlent, but if this is able to put an end to it then great. i certainly belive that the McLaren case is certainly not an isolated one, they weren't the first, and they surely won't be the last, but they were caught and they deservedly have had an example made of them - perhaps there are an example or 2 more to be made before this whole thing is cleaned up?

why does this stuff follow Fernando around? ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

It'll be interesting to see if the Renault case follows the pattern set by Stepneygate in all respects :dozey:

[pino]

It'll be interesting to see if the Renault case follows the pattern set by Stepneygate in all respects :dozey:

That depends on McLaren :p :

[SGWilko]

That depends on McLaren :p :

Indeed. Perhaps if Ron and Mansour Ojeh jump up and down spitting blood 'a la Mssrs Todt and Montezemelo', then maybe that will be enough to force the Renault board to pull the plug on the team.

[passmeatissue]

Why now? I wonder if McLaren have been trying to get Max to go easy on their 2008 'negative points allocation', and got "no" for an answer?

I am pleased with this development, anyway, everyone knew Renault had the data and used it in their cars, so it was quite unfair that McLaren were being singled out. Not to mention Flav's hypocrisy about it.

[Bagwan]

Shouldn't someone be getting upset at the title of this thread ?

They have been accused , not convicted .

Given that Flavio was shouting that he would have liked the weight distribution info on the Ferrari as well , back when the data was streaming to McLaren from the reds , is it inconceivable that he is in the same situation that Ron said he was in ?

Perhaps he didn't know .

Not that that should excuse him from being responsible , as he signed on as being so , just like Ron .
But , that will likely be his story , using his public disdain for the McLaren saga as evidence of his state of mind at the time , using Ron's precedent to cop a lesser fine due to a lesser amount of info .

Playing in Flavio's favour also , is the fact that Renault never really looked like they had a hope , showing that , if they had a peek , they certainly didn't show it . It sure didn't look like the had .

It'll be interesting to see if the Renault case follows the pattern set by Stepneygate in all respects :dozey:

What, like Pat Symonds has sent his wife down to the local photocopying shop?

What, like if Renault have been in possession of a Mclaren dossier?

What, like if Martin Whitmarsh has been leaking info to Renault?

If there is hard evidence, like a dossier and email communication, then Renault should lose their constructors points for the 2007 season, just as Mclaren did.

Something tells me, however, that Renault's in-house management will have made pretty damn sure that even if hard evidence did at one time exist, it's long been removed.

Sometime between June & September, most likely.

I am pleased with this development, anyway, everyone knew Renault had the data and used it in their cars.

Link please!

[Hondo]

Shouldn't someone be getting upset at the title of this thread ?

They have been accused , not convicted .

Given that Flavio was shouting that he would have liked the weight distribution info on the Ferrari as well , back when the data was streaming to McLaren from the reds , is it inconceivable that he is in the same situation that Ron said he was in ?

Perhaps he didn't know .

Not that that should excuse him from being responsible , as he signed on as being so , just like Ron .
But , that will likely be his story , using his public disdain for the McLaren saga as evidence of his state of mind at the time , using Ron's precedent to cop a lesser fine due to a lesser amount of info .

Playing in Flavio's favour also , is the fact that Renault never really looked like they had a hope , showing that , if they had a peek , they certainly didn't show it . It sure didn't look like the had .

Bags, sorry, but I have grown weary of arguing of arguing what constitutes "cheating" but have gotten no clear definition so I ignore it now.

[Bagwan]

What, like Pat Symonds has sent his wife down to the local photocopying shop?

What, like if Renault have been in possession of a Mclaren dossier?

What, like if Martin Whitmarsh has been leaking info to Renault?

If there is hard evidence, like a dossier and email communication, then Renault should lose their constructors points for the 2007 season, just as Mclaren did.

Something tells me, however, that Renault's in-house management will have made pretty damn sure that even if hard evidence did at one time exist, it's long been removed.

Sometime between June & September, most likely.

Not to worry , Tambo , when they dust for fingerprints , they use powder , so we should be able to get some good scandal going here . They could dust Martin's pockets .

McLaren has no comment , just accusations .
Nice series we have here .

[Bagwan]

Bags, sorry, but I have grown weary of arguing of arguing what constitutes "cheating" but have gotten no clear definition so I ignore it now.


My point was that I believe it was quickly clarified in the thread title when it was McLaren that were accused .
Really , just an aside that could help avoid some argument if cleared up quickly .

I did digress , but for a reason .

[SGWilko]

What, like Pat Symonds has sent his wife down to the local photocopying shop?

What, like if Renault have been in possession of a Mclaren dossier?

What, like if Martin Whitmarsh has been leaking info to Renault?

If there is hard evidence, like a dossier and email communication, then Renault should lose their constructors points for the 2007 season, just as Mclaren did.

Something tells me, however, that Renault's in-house management will have made pretty damn sure that even if hard evidence did at one time exist, it's long been removed.

Sometime between June & September, most likely.

Well, the FIA could pull the same trick as they are going to try with McLaren. "That component looks dodgy, lets stuff 'em"

Unfortunately, the FIA set a very dangerous precedent pandering to the Ferrari machine, and cannot now be seen to be doing anything other than blowing the whistle on the whole incestuous world that is F1. It will be fun watching Charlie Farley boys looking for those elusive needles within all those haystacks. :p :

You never know, Max might decide he fancies retirement after all........ ;)

[passmeatissue]

There was this item....

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19677.html

including:
"More specifically, however, there have been allegations in recent days that Renault engineer Phil Mackereth took three disks of McLaren information with him when he joined Renault. We have also heard rumours that McLaren information may have also turned up at another team which recruited people from McLaren. For the moment everyone is remaining very quiet and playing down the possibilities.
"What happened is what happens probably all the time," Renault team boss Flavio Briatore told a German magazine, oddly echoing the remarks of de la Rosa and Dennis. "It cannot be controlled. I don't want to say anything, because it is now something for the FIA to judge."
Briatore added that the team has given all the available information about the case to the FIA and to McLaren."

So I think there is definitely something to it.

"More specifically, however, there have been allegations in recent days that Renault engineer Phil Mackereth took three disks of McLaren information with him when he joined Renault.

Just a question (not directly to Passmeatissue, more a general one).....have the disks been found at Renault, like the dossier was found in the possession of a Mclaren designer?

If they have, then Renault are in the same boat.

If they haven't, then there isn't any hard evidence.

[Wilderness]

Tad Czapski, head of R&D at RenaultF1...

Tad Czapski, head of R&D at RenaultF1...

I hope there's more to the current accusation than that!

[ArrowsFA1]

...have the disks been found at Renault, like the dossier was found in the possession of a Mclaren designer?
By "at Renault" you mean in possession of a Renault employee?

[Wilderness]

I hope there's more to the current accusation than that!
Sorry if I was too subtle for you.

My jest was with regards to the incestuous culture the F1 community has had for many years. One engineer sneezes, and all the teams catch the same cold. Max is fighting a futile battle in this pandemic.

By "at Renault" you mean in possession of a Renault employee?

Possesion as in proved beyond doubt to be in his possession, such as found at his house, in his car, in his laptop by, say, the police?

Wasn't that the point about Coughlan...he was caught in possesion of the documents?

I'm just intrigued to know if there is something so definitive with the Renault accusation.

If it's just a case of someone being accused of taking a disk without anything to confirm that he did, then there won't be much for Renault to have to do to get off.

So, does anyone know if there is any 'smoking gun' in this case, as there was with the Stepneygate case?

[passmeatissue]

Just a question (not directly to Passmeatissue, more a general one).....have the disks been found at Renault, like the dossier was found in the possession of a Mclaren designer?

If they have, then Renault are in the same boat.

If they haven't, then there isn't any hard evidence.

There's a good summary (as so often) on grandprix.com...

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19845.html

Since Flav is agreeing that the issue does exist, I am pretty sure there is hard evidence, otherwise he would have denied it. I feel there are too many specifics for this to be an empty allegation. There was a story that Flav visited the Macca motorhome (or whatever it is in Ronspeak) and signed some kind of agreement, which Ron tried to present at the WMSC hearing. I was afraid that in return Ron had agreed not to "complain" to the FIA, but apparently not so.

There's a good summary (as so often) on grandprix.com...

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19845.html

Since Flav is agreeing that the issue does exist, I am pretty sure there is hard evidence, otherwise he would have denied it. I feel there are too many specifics for this to be an empty allegation. There was a story that Flav visited the Macca motorhome (or whatever it is in Ronspeak) and signed some kind of agreement, which Ron tried to present at the WMSC hearing. I was afraid that in return Ron had agreed not to "complain" to the FIA, but apparently not so.

Thanks.

[ioan]

Shouldn't someone be getting upset at the title of this thread ?

No French forum members, no Renault fans, no moderator who's fan of Renault either. So I guess it's OK!

Nevertheless a good point to start with! ;)

[ioan]

There's a good summary (as so often) on grandprix.com...

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19845.html

Since Flav is agreeing that the issue does exist, I am pretty sure there is hard evidence, otherwise he would have denied it. I feel there are too many specifics for this to be an empty allegation. There was a story that Flav visited the Macca motorhome (or whatever it is in Ronspeak) and signed some kind of agreement, which Ron tried to present at the WMSC hearing. I was afraid that in return Ron had agreed not to "complain" to the FIA, but apparently not so.

There are some holes in their article especially when they say that it wasn't proved that McLaren used Ferrari data, when we all know that their drivers were using Ferrari data during testing.
So yeah a "reliable" and "unbiased" source they are. :s

[SGWilko]

There are some holes in their article especially when they say that it wasn't proved that McLaren used Ferrari data, when we all know that their drivers were using Ferrari data during testing.
So yeah a "reliable" and "unbiased" source they are. :s

I know of episodes of Only Fools & Horses that get repeated less times on UKTV Gold than you repeat the 'Ferrari Data' chestnut.

:rolleyes: ;)

[Hondo]

Well, the FIA could pull the same trick as they are going to try with McLaren. "That component looks dodgy, lets stuff 'em"

Unfortunately, the FIA set a very dangerous precedent pandering to the Ferrari machine, and cannot now be seen to be doing anything other than blowing the whistle on the whole incestuous world that is F1. It will be fun watching Charlie Farley boys looking for those elusive needles within all those haystacks. :p :

You never know, Max might decide he fancies retirement after all........ ;)

The FIA is not bound, on any decision, to previous case law so precedent means nothing. They could find a Williams with parts stamped "Made by Ferrari" all over it, copies of the entire 2008 testing program, and phone records of a 100 calls from Massa and do nothing at all or fine Sir Frank $1.00 and tell him to take the parts off the car.

The FIA is not bound, on any decision, to previous case law so precedent means nothing. They could find a Williams with parts stamped "Made by Ferrari" all over it, copies of the entire 2008 testing program, and phone records of a 100 calls from Massa and do nothing at all or fine Sir Frank $1.00 and tell him to take the parts off the car.

Good point.

It's also worth bearing in mind that Mclaren's defence of the original spying charge was that the MP4/22 was totally different to the F2007 and so the info was unusable.

If they, Mclaren, are going to accuse Renault of using the data they have allegedly received, doesn't that also prove that Mclaren lied at the September hearing?

[SGWilko]

If they, Mclaren, are going to accuse Renault of using the data they have allegedly received, doesn't that also prove that Mclaren lied at the September hearing?

Do they need to prove they used it? Being in possession of it, as was the FIA case with McLaren re the Ferrari papers, ought to be enough for a $100m fine and constructors point removal?

[passmeatissue]

If they, Mclaren, are going to accuse Renault of using the data they have allegedly received, doesn't that also prove that Mclaren lied at the September hearing?

Could you expand on that please tamburello?

[ArrowsFA1]

The FIA is not bound, on any decision, to previous case law so precedent means nothing.
And therein rests a real problem. With rules being open to interpretation, and penalties being inconsistent, how can fairness be applied consistently for all competitors?

[93VTEC]

HOw come Ferrari is not getting involved. This "McLaren data" could be the "Ferrari data" that McLaren was in possesion of?

The plot thickens.

Perhaps Coughlan was just a middle man, between Ferrari and Renault!

[passmeatissue]

I remember reports that some of the data had been incorporated into the 2007 Renault. Looking now I found this (http://www.duemotori.com/news/f1/17528_McLaren_accuses_Renault_in_new_spy_case.php)

"Lawyers for McLaren are believed to have told the FIA that Renault (http://www.duemotori.com/brands/en/renault/) copied aspects of McLaren's cooling and electronic systems this year after the defecting engineer took with him to the Enstone based team three unspecified 'disks' of detailed data."

Have to wonder how McLaren found out about Renault electronics, do they have a mole in Renault, do you suppose? :D

But sniggering aside, you have to think Flav's only possible defence is that he told the FIA and McLaren as soon as he found out.

Do they need to prove they used it?

No. Same as with Stepneygate. All I was pointing out was that Mclaren's own defence to the orginal Ferrari dossier inquiry was that the info could not be transferred to the MP4/22. That's the same with this current situation....

....unless.....


Could you expand on that please tamburello?

By Mclaren's own logic, the info cannot be of any use.

If the info is claimed by Mclaren to have been used, then they lied to the FIA about the use of data not relating to their own car.

[93VTEC]

Doesn't MAX want closer racing and homologated parts on the cars. Letting the cheating go on, would accomplish that very quickly and everyone would be driving a Fer-ren-laren.

[SGWilko]

Looking now I found this (http://www.duemotori.com/news/f1/17528_McLaren_accuses_Renault_in_new_spy_case.php)

I was not aware that at any time during Ross's tenure at the Scuderia was there an issue between him and Todt.

This year has shown that is all is not well between Luca and Jean though. Does that mean JT will not be working for the road car devision for much longer either?

Is this the beginning of the end again for Ferrari for a while?

[Bagwan]

No. Same as with Stepneygate. All I was pointing out was that Mclaren's own defence to the orginal Ferrari dossier inquiry was that the info could not be transferred to the MP4/22. That's the same with this current situation....

....unless.....



By Mclaren's own logic, the info cannot be of any use.

If the info is claimed by Mclaren to have been used, then they lied to the FIA about the use of data not relating to their own car.


Could you please book a few minutes to speak at the hearing ?
You could straighten a lot of things out with a few words .

[SGWilko]

No. Same as with Stepneygate. All I was pointing out was that Mclaren's own defence to the orginal Ferrari dossier inquiry was that the info could not be transferred to the MP4/22. That's the same with this current situation....

....unless.....



By Mclaren's own logic, the info cannot be of any use.

If the info is claimed by Mclaren to have been used, then they lied to the FIA about the use of data not relating to their own car.

I see your logic.

There are some differences though, as it appears that the case against McLaren was that they had in their (or implied to be in their possesion by the fact that their employee had the dossier) possession data belonging to a rival team. There were no specific allegations as to how that info had been incorporated into the car.

With the Renault case however, it appears - prima facie - that specific solutions incorporated on the McLaren car(s) and subsequently found to be incorporated into the Renault (when an employee left McLaren and went and worked for the Reggie) can (theoretically) be shown to be the case.

This I would say is a strong case for proof of the use of another teams IP in the Reggies current cars, and is potentially quite damaging to them in respect of the possible punishment this could incur, given the McLaren punishment.

[passmeatissue]

No. Same as with Stepneygate. All I was pointing out was that Mclaren's own defence to the orginal Ferrari dossier inquiry was that the info could not be transferred to the MP4/22. That's the same with this current situation....

....unless.....

By Mclaren's own logic, the info cannot be of any use.

If the info is claimed by Mclaren to have been used, then they lied to the FIA about the use of data not relating to their own car.

I think McLaren did lie, and got shown up, for example over Coughlan's role in design, the strength of his relationship with Stepney, and Pedro's input to the simulator. However I also believe Pedro when he said the data was comparatively trivial and the kind that normally gets passed around F1. A 780 page dossier sounds a lot, but most of it would be irrelevant to McLaren.

I think that also applies to the McLaren-to-Renault data, and that McLaren wouldn't normally have made a complaint about it to the FIA. I think the reason they have done is that they have detected that Max is still out to get them.

And, to keep some perspective, on the subject of lying in F1 of course we remember the FIA spokesperson after the first WMSC meeting: "I can confirm that the verdict was unanimous". :)

[Mysterious Rock]

Could it also be feasable that if they were getting info, and it has been proven that Mclaren had ferrari data, then Renault may have also gotten some of this info with the Mclaren Info as such a double whammy????
Far Fetched but plausable

[Daniel]

Why now? I wonder if McLaren have been trying to get Max to go easy on their 2008 'negative points allocation', and got "no" for an answer?

I am pleased with this development, anyway, everyone knew Renault had the data and used it in their cars, so it was quite unfair that McLaren were being singled out. Not to mention Flav's hypocrisy about it.

With all respect pass meat issue, it's not really something that everyone knew about.

[truefan72]

Sorry if I was too subtle for you.

My jest was with regards to the incestuous culture the F1 community has had for many years. One engineer sneezes, and all the teams catch the same cold. Max is fighting a futile battle in this pandemic.

And that just underscores the point that this type of behavoir has been common place in F1 for decades with no real harm being done to anyone. Teams don't exist in a vacuum and knowledge of competitors stuff is/has always been around in F1 and in the rest of the corporate world.
It is just that Ferrari in their zeal to win-at-all-cost have now opened a pandora's box that does nothing but castigate the entire sport to ridicule. If you look long and hatrd enough, surely you will find that Ferrari too were in possesion of competitors materials and IP over the years. To not think so would be to be naive. Teams have only complained in the most egritious of curcumstances and otherwhise played with a subtle understanding that minor info eventually gets around. Especially with the fluidity of Engineers, mechanics and staff.
Ferrari may have won the battle, but have ultimately caused a World war in doing so, escalating the tensions amongst teams and causing a chain reaction amongst teams based on the verdicts of course helped by the FIA...


And therein rests a real problem. With rules being open to interpretation, and penalties being inconsistent, how can fairness be applied consistently for all competitors?

...Which
has also played a significant role in the absurdity of the whole matter. Max Mosley and his juvenile hatred for RD has in effect brought F1 to this event horizon. He and the cutrrent board need to resign with immediate effect.

It is they who have brought the sport to disrepute and threaten to outright damge it beyond repair. These scandals and decisions do nothing to enamor advertisers, sponsorship, innovation, basic impartiality or even some semopblance of an even playing field.

The way things are goingg, by 2012 the entire series would be run by ferrari engines and customer chasis, with only 12 cars on the grid, as everyone else has left.

The calls for a seperate sereis independant of the overbearing FIA grow stronger everyday. And if Williams,BWM, McClaren, Honda, Toyota, and Renault decided to pursue that breakaway series, I will wholeheartedly support it!

[wmcot]

The calls for a seperate sereis independant of the overbearing FIA grow stronger everyday. And if Williams,BWM, McClaren, Honda, Toyota, and Renault decided to pursue that breakaway series, I will wholeheartedly support it!

More likely we'll see the car companies start to pull out of F1 for calmer and friendlier waters! :(

[Wilderness]

And that just underscores the point that this type of behavoir has been common place in F1 for decades with no real harm being done to anyone. Teams don't exist in a vacuum and knowledge of competitors stuff is/has always been around in F1 and in the rest of the corporate world.
It is just that Ferrari in their zeal to win-at-all-cost have now opened a pandora's box that does nothing but castigate the entire sport to ridicule. If you look long and hatrd enough, surely you will find that Ferrari too were in possesion of competitors materials and IP over the years. To not think so would be to be naive. Teams have only complained in the most egritious of curcumstances and otherwhise played with a subtle understanding that minor info eventually gets around. Especially with the fluidity of Engineers, mechanics and staff.
Ferrari may have won the battle, but have ultimately caused a World war in doing so, escalating the tensions amongst teams and causing a chain reaction amongst teams based on the verdicts of course helped by the FIA...
Too true. For example, the 1978 Shadow/Arrows rif over the FA1 was resolved by a court, not FISA.

...Which
has also played a significant role in the absurdity of the whole matter. Max Mosley and his juvenile hatred for RD has in effect brought F1 to this event horizon. He and the cutrrent board need to resign with immediate effect.

It is they who have brought the sport to disrepute and threaten to outright damge it beyond repair. These scandals and decisions do nothing to enamor advertisers, sponsorship, innovation, basic impartiality or even some semopblance of an even playing field.

The way things are goingg, by 2012 the entire series would be run by ferrari engines and customer chasis, with only 12 cars on the grid, as everyone else has left.

The calls for a seperate sereis independant of the overbearing FIA grow stronger everyday. And if Williams,BWM, McClaren, Honda, Toyota, and Renault decided to pursue that breakaway series, I will wholeheartedly support it!
Bring back GPMA. It's time to shelf Mosley and the Concord Agreement.

[passmeatissue]

With all respect pass meat issue, it's not really something that everyone knew about.

Took me a bit by surprise, da kneel, but easily fixed, fortunately!

[Andrewmcm]

The way things are goingg, by 2012 the entire series would be run by ferrari engines and customer chasis, with only 12 cars on the grid, as everyone else has left.

Interesting point. That's happening soon in another series called A1GP....

[jens]

Renault has McLaren's information? No surprise there - Alonso seems to communicate with Briatore 'suspiciously much'. :laugh: Renault will be more competitive next year and FA will say again that he has brought 0,6 secs. :D

With those spying scandals the possibility of seeing Spyker as WCC one day is constantly rising! :laugh:

[DazzlaF1]

Renault has McLaren's information? No surprise there - Alonso seems to communicate with Briatore 'suspiciously much'. :laugh: Renault will be more competitive next year and FA will say again that he has brought 0,6 secs. :D

With those spying scandals the possibility of seeing Spyker as WCC one day is constantly rising! :laugh:
:laugh:

If Renault are found guilty though and DONT get the same punishment as McLaren did, imagine the calls of "double standards" coming from the McLaren camp

[MrJan]

Every team, every year, every boss. One of the main reasons that so much money goes into F1 is because of spying. I don't know why the FIA didn't just sweep it under the carpet, it's like drugs in athletics, never going to be out of the sport.

[truefan72]

:laugh:

If Renault are found guilty though and DONT get the same punishment as McLaren did, imagine the calls of "double standards" coming from the McLaren camp

sadly that's what McClaren are counting on, and it will never stop

I wish all this stuff would go away, and that the Mcclaren fine be reduced to a nominal amount.
Then have all the teams agree on a pact that all decisions regarding spying etc, be handled in arbitration and only when it is CLEARLY demonstrated that the violationg team gained a competitive advantage and/or CLEARLY used the opponents IP in their construction to a degree that would render the components identical; and with no prior development or evolution proven by the accused team of said part that could indicate their own development of the component.

As it stands right now, all the F1 cars are more similar than dissimilar and am certain contain a good number of almost identical parts.

[BDunnell]

Every team, every year, every boss. One of the main reasons that so much money goes into F1 is because of spying. I don't know why the FIA didn't just sweep it under the carpet, it's like drugs in athletics, never going to be out of the sport.

I still don't think this sort of thing is comparable with drugs in other sports. That is a problem specific to those sports and this is a problem specific to F1.

As for this case, who can say? The fact that this thread began by saying, in effect, that Renault are guilty before any investigation is in itself rather depressing. At this stage, we simply don't know. What we can say with all certainty is that spying in one form or another has almost always been a part of F1, albeit to different degrees, and that none of this is any good for the sport no matter how 'enjoyable' some people may find the misfortune of certain teams and individuals.

[DazzlaF1]

sadly that's what McClaren are counting on, and it will never stop

I wish all this stuff would go away, and that the Mcclaren fine be reduced to a nominal amount.
Then have all the teams agree on a pact that all decisions regarding spying etc, be handled in arbitration and only when it is CLEARLY demonstrated that the violationg team gained a competitive advantage and/or CLEARLY used the opponents IP in their construction to a degree that would render the components identical; and with no prior development or evolution proven by the accused team of said part that could indicate their own development of the component.

As it stands right now, all the F1 cars are more similar than dissimilar and am certain contain a good number of almost identical parts.

Aye, it's not like Spying is a new problem, it's been going on in the F1 paddock for years. But its just when Ferrari are the supposed "victims" that all hell breaks loose it looks like.

[VkmSpouge]

I do hope Renault are innocent of the accusations but if they are found guilty they should be given the same punishment as McLaren.

[truefan72]

I do hope Renault are innocent of the accusations but if they are found guilty they should be given the same punishment as McLaren.

first and foremost it depends on what they are actually guilty off

secondly, it looks like RD and FB had some sort of gentleman's agreement from nearly 2 years ago, which has now only been broken due to the outlandish fine that McClaren got for probably a lesser infraction. Actually talking to each other and coming up with an amicable solution was the way things used to be done. Ferrari unhgappy with the resurgance of McClaren (as this was supposed to be their year) took this whole ussue to a disturbing level.


thirdly, It won't stop at Renault and Mcclaren, trust me,
other maunufactures/teams will be claiming offenses all over the place, no matter how minor and looking for a $100 mill. verdict too. Even if it half that or a quarter of that, it will still be too much for many teams on the paddock.

Thise whole spying issue is going to get much worse before it gets better, and us the fans will end up the losers in the whole affair. The fIA is not showing any strong leadership or m,odifications of their rules to clarify these situations. Instead they seem content on letting these situatiions exhaserbate

[ioan]

HOw come Ferrari is not getting involved. This "McLaren data" could be the "Ferrari data" that McLaren was in possesion of?

The plot thickens.

Perhaps Coughlan was just a middle man, between Ferrari and Renault!

The McLaren engineer that is supposed to have brought the McLaren data to Renault did quit McLaren last year, they didn't have the Ferrari data yet at that moment.

So why did you feel the need to involve Ferrari in this story? Care to tell us?

[grantb4]

There are some holes in their article especially when they say that it wasn't proved that McLaren used Ferrari data, when we all know that their drivers were using Ferrari data during testing.
So yeah a "reliable" and "unbiased" source they are. :s

That's not entirely true either. They only talked about using the data during testing. For instance the wieght distribution was considered to be so far off of McLaren's that there was no way or no point of running it on the simulator. In any event, they talked about it but never applied it.

[raikk]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7085098.stm

this is getting out of hand and making F1 a laughing stock!

lol.... F1 will replace racing with dramatic court hearings :mark:

[tinchote]

lol.... F1 will replace racing with dramatic court hearings :mark:

If you think this is bad, ask anybody about the FISA-FOCA war.

[leopard]

I do hope Renault are innocent of the accusations but if they are found guilty they should be given the same punishment as McLaren.
Any leakage of data are consequence of dismissing employee, especially a high absorbility driver like Alonso. Giving punishment to team scored nothing in a season isn't commenced is like to give the punishment to person isn't awake.

;)

[wmcot]

The McLaren engineer that is supposed to have brought the McLaren data to Renault did quit McLaren last year, they didn't have the Ferrari data yet at that moment.

So why did you feel the need to involve Ferrari in this story? Care to tell us?

It's the damn Ferrari bashing gene that takes over the common sense center of the brain in some F1 "fans" ;)

[wmcot]

But its just when Ferrari are the supposed "victims" that all hell breaks loose it looks like.

Or is it just when McLaren are caught "with their hands in the cookie jar" that all hell breaks loose?

[PSfan]

Ok, can I remind everyone that the first time around the FIA chose to give McLeran a conditional discharge, and initially let them walk when McLeran claimed to not have used or even attempted to use the Ferrari information? And it wasn't until more evidence and emails that FIA realised they where lied too and decided to throw the book at them?

Also why does everyone throw the $100 million fine around as if that was fact? That figure was the combined fine, and loss of revenues for finishing 1st in the constructor, and as everyone should already know, thanks to Alonso's little prank he pulled on Hamilton during some qualifying pit stops and the subsequent penalty McLeran received for that, they would have finished second making the combined hit on them I believe only $55 Million or so (Not sure if I'll be able to dig up the article I read that in)

Also why do I think that evidence uncovered by italian police should hold a little bit more weight then eveidence produced by a 3rd party detective agency hired by Mcleran?

If this proves to be nothing more then a Mcleran stirring up $hit, then I hope the FIA reconsider banning them for 2008 for bringing the sport into even more disrepute!!!

[passmeatissue]

Ok, can I remind everyone that the first time around the FIA chose to give McLeran a conditional discharge, and initially let them walk when McLeran claimed to not have used or even attempted to use the Ferrari information? And it wasn't until more evidence and emails that FIA realised they where lied too and decided to throw the book at them?

Also why does everyone throw the $100 million fine around as if that was fact? That figure was the combined fine, and loss of revenues for finishing 1st in the constructor, and as everyone should already know, thanks to Alonso's little prank he pulled on Hamilton during some qualifying pit stops and the subsequent penalty McLeran received for that, they would have finished second making the combined hit on them I believe only $55 Million or so (Not sure if I'll be able to dig up the article I read that in)

Also why do I think that evidence uncovered by italian police should hold a little bit more weight then eveidence produced by a 3rd party detective agency hired by Mcleran?

If this proves to be nothing more then a Mcleran stirring up $hit, then I hope the FIA reconsider banning them for 2008 for bringing the sport into even more disrepute!!!

The offset on the fine is to stop the penalty being $150m. McLaren have $100m less than they would have had, that is the punishment.

Ferrari asked the Italian prosecutor for permission to use the phone message data, and they refused. Ferrari used it anyway, and McLaren are now suing them in Italy for illegal use of that data.

There is no chance that Renault did not use illegal McLaren data. Also it seems Flav did not tell them, they found out from an engineer they recruited from Renault. And it is serious, F1-Live is saying "One insider told The Independent newspaper: "The amount and depth of the information (found at Renault) makes 'Stepneygate' look like a walk in the park."

So hopefully the hysteria whipped up by Ferrari and Max about the comparatively trivial goings on in McLaren will be brought into a more sensible perspective.

Renault could be in deep trouble, unless Max fudges it for them. In that case, Max could be in deep trouble.

[Daniel]

The offset on the fine is to stop the penalty being $150m. McLaren have $100m less than they would have had, that is the punishment.

Ferrari asked the Italian prosecutor for permission to use the phone message data, and they refused. Ferrari used it anyway, and McLaren are now suing them in Italy for illegal use of that data.

There is no chance that Renault did not use illegal McLaren data. Also it seems Flav did not tell them, they found out from an engineer they recruited from Renault. And it is serious, F1-Live is saying "One insider told The Independent newspaper: "The amount and depth of the information (found at Renault) makes 'Stepneygate' look like a walk in the park."

So hopefully the hysteria whipped up by Ferrari and Max about the comparatively trivial goings on in McLaren will be brought into a more sensible perspective.

Renault could be in deep trouble, unless Max fudges it for them. In that case, Max could be in deep trouble.
So you think cheating should just happen and it's all good?

[ArrowsFA1]

F1-Live is saying "One insider told The Independent newspaper: "The amount and depth of the information (found at Renault) makes 'Stepneygate' look like a walk in the park."
Here's (http://sport.independent.co.uk/motor_racing/article3143193.ece) the Independent's story.

[passmeatissue]

So you think cheating should just happen and it's all good?

Take something I did say, then we can debate it.

[Daniel]

Take something I did say, then we can debate it.
What did McLaren do? What are Renault rumoured to have done? CHEATING. Is that trivial? or OK? No!

[rohanweb]

Renault gonna go bankrupt with a 100million fine..

how can you combat one of your thousand employee steal information from the work place and sells it to a competitor? well..sacking is the only thing can happen of the employee both side, WHY PUNISHING THE TEAM AS A WHOLE????
this is ridiculous because there going to be toomany childish-moaners going to riseup with such complaints race after race! i bet next year ferrari is going to comeup with saying Ron's engineers were spying on thier garage with high tech surveilance binaculars..therefore uncle max going to deduct points of mclaren team.. then Tororosso boss going to complain that some team nicked his lollypop or taken a picture of his cars and wants to sue them..

each and every team in every sport always lookout for what is going around in the fellow teams and ARE keen to know technical stuffs etc.. none are innocents including ferrari's.. thats the way sport works for long time and it is the team principal to makesure the security of his own teams stuffs by taking responsibility of it than start blaming around others. it is childish.

hehe.. F1 sucks nowdays..

[Daniel]

Renault gonna go bankrupt with a 100million fine..

how can you combat one of your thousand employee steal information from the work place and sells it to a competitor? well..sacking is the only thing can happen of the employee both side, WHY PUNISHING THE TEAM AS A WHOLE????
this is ridiculous because there going to be toomany childish-moaners going to riseup with such complaints race after race! i bet next year ferrari is going to comeup with saying Ron's engineers were spying on thier garage with high tech surveilance binaculars..therefore uncle max going to deduct points of mclaren team.. then Tororosso boss going to complain that some team nicked his lollypop or taken a picture of his cars and wants to sue them..

each and every team in every sport always lookout for what is going around in the fellow teams and ARE keen to know technical stuffs etc.. none are innocents including ferrari's.. thats the way sport works for long time and it is the team principal to makesure the security of his own teams stuffs by taking responsibility of it than start blaming around others. it is childish.

hehe.. F1 sucks nowdays..
As has been stated ad nauseum it is NOT solely the responsibility of the team to make sure their data is safe. Of course they have to take all reasonable precautions but at the end of the day it's the responsibility of teams and their employees do not use any data from other teams. As I said before the only way to ensure the data is completely safe would be to seal it in a concrete block and drop it into the marianas trench. Now if you can show me a way of running a team while your data is miles underwater then you're a genius but sadly no team can operate with 100% security and that's a fact. If it's just sour grapes because your team was cheating and did their best not to win the drivers title then that's not my problem or Ferrari's problem.

[passmeatissue]

What did McLaren do? What are Renault rumoured to have done? CHEATING. Is that trivial? or OK? No!

Well, there is a level of copying that everyone accepts - photographs, sound recording, debriefing new recruits. So "cheating" is not an on/off thing that starts at zero.

What we know about McLaren's use of Ferrari information is...

There was a 780 page dossier which was a blueprint for a team, but McLaren don't need a blueprint, and there's no evidence that it was used at all.
An email about tyre gas which was immediately poo-poohed by Brdigestone.
Emails about weight distribution which only showed that Ferrari and McLaren cars were completely different in concept, to the point where the simulator couldn't emulate the Ferraris, they were off the scale.
Emails about pitstop plans.
There was a lot text and phone traffic but no-one knows what was said. It couldn't have contained any detailed data, though.
McLaren told some lies at the hearing, trying to deny any wrongdoing at all. They should have admitted what did happen.

This was wrong, clearly, but trivial. There is no evidence that the McLaren car benefitted from this. The 2007 car had already been designed long before, so di Montezemolo's cracks about the McLaren being a Ferrari in disguise were just unsporting off-track hostility. McLaren offered to let the FIA inspect the car, and the FIA didn't want to. Everything else is speculation and you can't issue punishments on that basis.

Renault, by contrast, had at least 7 McLaren-logoed documents on their computer system, and there were several specific parts on their 2007 car which were copied from the McLaren data and used through the season.

So having set the bar at $100m and no contsructors points for what McLaren did, Max is in trouble now to be consistent without losing Renault altogether.

[ioan]

Renault gonna go bankrupt with a 100million fine..


Bollocks, again.

I'm no Renault fan,not F1 nor road cars division. But they are financially stronger than Mercedes.

[ioan]

how can you combat one of your thousand employee steal information from the work place and sells it to a competitor? well..sacking is the only thing can happen of the employee both side, WHY PUNISHING THE TEAM AS A WHOLE????

Because the team works as a WHOLE!

[Daniel]

Well, there is a level of copying that everyone accepts - photographs, sound recording, debriefing new recruits. So "cheating" is not an on/off thing that starts at zero.

What we know about McLaren's use of Ferrari information is...

There was a 780 page dossier which was a blueprint for a team, but McLaren don't need a blueprint, and there's no evidence that it was used at all.
An email about tyre gas which was immediately poo-poohed by Brdigestone.
Emails about weight distribution which only showed that Ferrari and McLaren cars were completely different in concept, to the point where the simulator couldn't emulate the Ferraris, they were off the scale.
Emails about pitstop plans.
There was a lot text and phone traffic but no-one knows what was said. It couldn't have contained any detailed data, though.
McLaren told some lies at the hearing, trying to deny any wrongdoing at all. They should have admitted what did happen.

This was wrong, clearly, but trivial. There is no evidence that the McLaren car benefitted from this. The 2007 car had already been designed long before, so di Montezemolo's cracks about the McLaren being a Ferrari in disguise were just unsporting off-track hostility. McLaren offered to let the FIA inspect the car, and the FIA didn't want to. Everything else is speculation and you can't issue punishments on that basis.

Renault, by contrast, had at least 7 McLaren-logoed documents on their computer system, and there were several specific parts on their 2007 car which were copied from the McLaren data and used through the season.

So having set the bar at $100m and no contsructors points for what McLaren did, Max is in trouble now to be consistent without losing Renault altogether.

I hope you don't mind if I break into your house and steal all your credit cards. I won't buy anything with them of course and I won't benefit from it at all so I expect not to face any sort of prosecution.

[ioan]

I hope you don't mind if I break into your house and steal all your credit cards. I won't buy anything with them of course and I won't benefit from it at all so I expect not to face any sort of prosecution.

Give it up Daniel.
There is really no use to start it again just to get the same results like in the previous threads.
Unless you have plenty of free time for this! ;)

[passmeatissue]

I hope you don't mind if I break into your house and steal all your credit cards. I won't buy anything with them of course and I won't benefit from it at all so I expect not to face any sort of prosecution.

pssst. F1 data is not a credit card ;) .

Much easier to
(a) pretend the other person said something extreme and indefensible, and
(b) concoct some irrelevant analogy

than follow what is going on in F1 and construct a reasoned argument in response to what was actually said.

[tinchote]

how can you combat one of your thousand employee steal information from the work place and sells it to a competitor? well..sacking is the only thing can happen of the employee both side, WHY PUNISHING THE TEAM AS A WHOLE????


You seem to have got something really wrong here. You don't punish the team whose employee sells the info. You punish the team that buys the info.

[Daniel]

pssst. F1 data is not a credit card ;) .

Much easier to
(a) pretend the other person said something extreme and indefensible, and
(b) concoct some irrelevant analogy

than follow what is going on in F1 and construct a reasoned argument in response to what was actually said.
WHAT?!?!?!? pass meat issue. Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought F1 data was credit cards! Oops! :rolleyes:

Unless entrapment can be proved you do as Tinchote said and prosecute the team who received the information. Of course you can "cheat" by looking at photos but cheating from documents is just not on........

[ArrowsFA1]

I hope you don't mind if I break into your house and steal all your credit cards. I won't buy anything with them of course and I won't benefit from it at all so I expect not to face any sort of prosecution.
No-one broke in and stole anything. Nigel Stepney used the company credit card ;)

[Daniel]

No-one broke in and stole anything. Nigel Stepney used the company credit card ;)
I wasn't trying to liken it exactly to what went on ;)

But lets say pass meat issue's significant other gave me their credit card? Should I not just report it straight away?

[pino]

WHAT?!?!?!? pass meat issue...



Daniel, please write/spell usernames correctly...thanks !

[aryan]

And therein rests a real problem. With rules being open to interpretation, and penalties being inconsistent, how can fairness be applied consistently for all competitors?

Ah! Civil Law Vs. Common Law... here we go again!

[SGWilko]

I hope you don't mind if I break into your house and steal all your credit cards. I won't buy anything with them of course and I won't benefit from it at all so I expect not to face any sort of prosecution.

Has there been an accusation of breaking into the Ferrari HQ and stealing info? That's a new one on me.....

[markabilly]

Daniel, please write/spell usernames correctly...thanks !
I am jealous--you never said that about me when others were screwing up my name and bashing in on me, and just who was pastthe meat before he became passedthemeat?

And you are always picking on Daniel; if Daniel can be scolded then so should many many others. Besides Daniel has a nice simple name, unlike this name with more than three words all strung together. And please do not tell me he came up with this name all on his own....I am sure he has got some manual or cd from somebody somewhere

Where is the justice? Sounds like the FIA needs to raid your computer

Clear favoritism and I am calling auntie Damon Hill to add this to his complaints :D

[Daniel]

Has there been an accusation of breaking into the Ferrari HQ and stealing info? That's a new one on me.....
Did I say that?

[SGWilko]

Did I say that?

You didn't need to, you made clear your inferrence by this little example.....


I hope you don't mind if I break into your house and steal all your credit cards. I won't buy anything with them of course and I won't benefit from it at all so I expect not to face any sort of prosecution.

[Daniel]

You didn't need to, you made clear your inferrence by this little example.....
...made clear your inference :rotflmao: If you wish to see it that way then I meant it that way. Whatever. The issue was the posession of someone elses goods and not making any benefit from it. The fact that I cleared it up with arrows should have kind of let you know what I was talking about......

[SGWilko]

...made clear your inference :rotflmao: If you wish to see it that way then I meant it that way. Whatever. The issue was the posession of someone elses goods and not making any benefit from it. The fact that I cleared it up with arrows should have kind of let you know what I was talking about......

Calm down, your spitting venom all over my screen.

[markabilly]

Just when I thought it be safe to put my well worn copy of the prince back on the shelf....oh well,

I was reading the story of the time of a certain village was in turmoil with open rebellion everywhere and the prince sends in a certain character to "take care of da dirty rats". After much taking care, and other executions, da prince gets wind of the people outcry, so he shows up, expresses dismay and disgust at the gusto of the faithful servant, and has the faithful servant terminated with extreme prejudice aka "taken care of", much to the relief and joy of the remaining few, who swore blind loyalty forever to their merciful prince


Now, turning our attention to the village in turmoil, we have the Flavio who has rocked the boat upon occaision, and RD who has rocked the boat much more seriously. Flavio is the business partner of bernie and bernie is the god of the sport and friend of Max, but RD is the one big pain in the but who can not get his golden boy choker to win the wdc, much to the dismay of revenue---So what to do?

The investigation based on character references of Bernie as to flavio's outstanding character will reveal that Flavio, unlike RD, took all appropriate measures to maintain the sanctuality of the sport......other details to be worked out....

[passmeatissue]

I wasn't trying to liken it exactly to what went on ;)

But lets say pass meat issue's significant other gave me their credit card? Should I not just report it straight away?

Daniel, excellent forum here for credit card fans...
http://forum.creditorweb.com/ :D

[ioan]

I am jealous--you never said that about me when others were screwing up my name and bashing in on me, and just who was pastthe meat before he became passedthemeat?

And you are always picking on Daniel; if Daniel can be scolded then so should many many others. Besides Daniel has a nice simple name, unlike this name with more than three words all strung together. And please do not tell me he came up with this name all on his own....I am sure he has got some manual or cd from somebody somewhere

Where is the justice? Sounds like the FIA needs to raid your computer

Clear favoritism and I am calling auntie Damon Hill to add this to his complaints :D

:rotflmao:

[ArrowsFA1]

Following the notification of the FIA for the ING Renault F1 Team representatives to appear in front of the World Council, the team wishes to clarify the situation.
On the 6th September 2007 it came to our attention that an engineer (Mr Phil Mackereth) who joined the team from McLaren in Sept 2006 had brought with him some information that was considered to be proprietary to McLaren. This information was contained on old style floppy discs and included copies of some McLaren engineering drawings and some technical spreadsheets.
This information was loaded at the request of Mr Mackereth onto his personal directory on the Renault F1 Team file system. This was done without the knowledge of anyone in authority in the team. As soon as the situation was brought to the attention of the team's technical management, the following actions were taken:
The information was completely cleansed from the team's computer systems and a formal investigation was started. We promptly informed McLaren of the situation and immediately after the FIA.
Since then we have constantly and regularly kept McLaren and the FIA informed on all relevant findings.
Mr Mackereth was immediately suspended from his position. The original floppy discs were impounded and sent to our solicitors for return to McLaren.
Our formal investigation showed that early in his employment with Renault Mr Mackereth made some of our engineers aware of parts of this information in the form of a few reduced scale engineering drawings. These drawings covered four basic systems as used by McLaren and were: the internal layout of the fuel tank, the basic layout of the gear clusters, a tuned mass damper and a suspension damper.
Subsequent witness statements from the engineers involved have categorically stated that having been briefly shown these drawings, none of this information was used to influence design decisions relating to the Renault car. In the particular case of the tuned mass damper, these had already been deemed illegal by the FIA and therefore the drawing was of no value.
The suspension damper drawing hinted that the McLaren design might be similarly considered illegal and a subsequent clarification from the FIA confirmed this based upon our crude interpretation of the concept.
ING Renault F1 Team have co-operated fully with McLaren and the FIA in this matter to the extent that the team has invited McLaren's independent experts to come and assess the team's computer systems and inspect the cars and the design records, to demonstrate that this unfortunate incident has not in anyway influenced the design of the cars.
ING Renault F1 Team have acted with complete transparency towards McLaren and the FIA, being proactive in solving this matter and we are fully confident in the judgment of the World Council.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63874

[Wilderness]

Sounds fishy. Who uses "old style" floppy disks this day and age??? Would they have enough storage capacity for those drawings?

[ioan]

Well well.
They aren't doing the same mistakes as RD did.
But I don't know if their stance would be the same if there wouldn't already have been the McLaren case with it's outcome.

I feel that a punishment should be handed out. How harsh that will be? Who knows.

[SGWilko]

Sounds fishy. Who uses "old style" floppy disks this day and age??? Would they have enough storage capacity for those drawings?

Old style - as in 1.44MB, and they had detailed tech drawings on them. Perhaps these disks were formatted with the TARDIS file format...... :laugh: Renault loaded those drawings onto their systems?

And they took ages to fathom out why they were so slow.........?! ;)

[Wilderness]

I'd suspend Mackereth too for not being too technically savvy...

[ioan]

Sounds fishy. Who uses "old style" floppy disks this day and age???

It seems that McLaren do! :D
Maybe that's why he needed to ask for them to be loaded on his Renault directory, cause they didn't had any suitable drive!


Would they have enough storage capacity for those drawings?

For the systems described (fuel tank layout, damper systems) it is easily possible.
Very easy if it's 2D, and fairly easy if it was 3D, and even if it was an assembly of several 3D parts.

One simple part (simple shapes, without use of complicated math equation to describe curves and surfaces) designed with ProEngineer with shades, highlights and colors added would need a few tenths of KBs. A more complicated part would go up to 100 or 200 KBs.

So the answer is yes it was possible to have all that info on 3, 1.44 MB floppy disks.

[SGWilko]

One simple part (simple shapes, without use of complicated math equation to describe curves and surfaces) designed with ProEngineer with shades, highlights and colors added would need a few tenths of KBs. A more complicated part would go up to 100 or 200 KBs.

So the answer is yes it was possible to have all that info on 3, 1.44 MB floppy disks.

That's very dissapointing. With the budgets these guys spend on design etc, and the technical minutae they go into, I would at least have expected a few Gigs of multilayered drawings. Oh well, it's not all true what you see on the big screen I guess..... ;)

[ioan]

I'd suspend Mackereth too for not being too technically savy...

Honestly, after seeing the mess these F1 engineers got themselves trying to do some data traffic, I strongly believe that they do not now to much about how to cheat an informatics system.

To "take home" 3 x 1.44 MB of classified data there is really no need to copy it onto floppies.

[ioan]

That's very dissapointing. With the budgets these guys spend on design etc, and the technical minutae they go into, I would at least have expected a few Gigs of multilayered drawings. Oh well, it's not all true what you see on the big screen I guess..... ;)

Don't fool yourself, results of FEM or FD simulations or optimizations for simpler (from a design point of view) parts do need many gigabytes for storage.

[Easy Drifter]

One question unanswered. Who authorized the up loading onto Renault's system? That person is not named in FB's response. Just who and how senior was this person? Ooops, that is really 3 questions.

[PSfan]

The offset on the fine is to stop the penalty being $150m. McLaren have $100m less than they would have had, that is the punishment.

The problem with that being the FIA cannot dictate what Bernie/FOM pays out, so its easy to assume that the combined fine plus resulting payout Mcleran lost would = 100, however there is nothing stopping Bernie from taking Ron into a back room and saying "you guys did I fine job, I think you still deserve the 2nd place prize money, there you go old chap"


Ferrari asked the Italian prosecutor for permission to use the phone message data, and they refused. Ferrari used it anyway, and McLaren are now suing them in Italy for illegal use of that data.

This is by far the most idoitic thing I've read on here in days!!! Sue Ferrari for using the data the police uncovered? use it for what? stand up comedy? what could Ferrari have any use of that information? it may have been passed on to the FIA who then used it against McLeran BUT Fererri used it too? Maybe ALonso passed on a secret Mcleran recipe for brownies that Ferrari used at a formula 1 bake sale?


There is no chance that Renault did not use illegal McLaren data. Also it seems Flav did not tell them, they found out from an engineer they recruited from Renault. And it is serious, F1-Live is saying "One insider told The Independent newspaper: "The amount and depth of the information (found at Renault) makes 'Stepneygate' look like a walk in the park."

We now have conflicting reports on this, renault said, and in enough detail that if they are proven right, would suggest the possibility of the macs still using mass dampers and other funny gadgets also deemed illegal, all found on 3 floppies disks. And then we have another story claiming this is much worse the what the Macs had on Ferrari...


So hopefully the hysteria whipped up by Ferrari and Max about the comparatively trivial goings on in McLaren will be brought into a more sensible perspective.


Renault could be in deep trouble, unless Max fudges it for them. In that case, Max could be in deep trouble.

And if the evidence proves Renault acted correctly on this matter? As I suggested earlier, should this prove to be nothing more then McLeran attempting to regain some dignity after the steyney-gate then I hope FIA has a couple more books they can throw at them...

[Hawkmoon]

I guess those that wanted Ferrari punished for not controlling their employees now want McLaren punished, again, for not doing the same. So that would be another $100 million and goodbye 2008. ;)

I think a distinction between spying and theft needs to be made. Spying is OK. They all do it and nobody has a problem with it. Taking photos and doing various forms of analysis on other cars is OK. Taking actual data, in whatever medium, is not. That's theft, or the receipt of stolen goods, and that's what McLaren were found guilty of and what Renault are being investigated for.

Looks like McLaren just moved one spot further up the pit lane next year. ;)

[truefan72]

The FIA is losing control over the situation

Give it a week and an allegation is going to come out that some other team used Renault info, it is going to be a domino effect that will stall the 2008 season. I can feel the storm gathering. F1 is becoming a farce and these legal cases and potential problems are doing nothing but diminishing the value of the sport.

From McClaren's end I can see their logic, as this precedent has been set up by the FIA. The guy Alonso who cost them $100million ( after the FIA had already handed out a verdict) is now going to the competitor that they themselves "cheated" on them. Ergo poetic justice would afford them the opportunity to hand it to Renault. For a trully ironic twist, they should have waited until Alonso signed on the dotted line and the team were 3 races into the season.

But seriously if I were the FIA I would do the following with hase

1. reduce McClaren fine to a nominal $1 million

2. hand out the same punishement to Renault

3. Reinstate the constructors points and let the current teams keep their winnigs, but maintain the #2 status for McClaren next year with all the benefits they are entitled to at that position.

4. from here on out ajudicate all team vs. team matters through an Arbitratior in order to ensure maximum impartiality as well as to stay out of making judgements. along with that, institute a policy whereby teams as part of the concord system CANNOT involve local or national judicial systems in a sporting matter. I am sure the italian government has better things to do than trying to ensure a Ferrari victory through their court system

5. Come up with a specific, transparent and a concise uniform code of conduct with specific penalities and associated values in place. No more subjective or biased decisions. $1million for each specific infraction.

6. Only refer a situation to arbitration, if it meets a stricter standard of "possession with actual confirmed and definitve use, resulting in exceeding performance and complete lack of distinction from competitors part" and/or "components/parts used that show clear to have been designed from other teams data/IP and violating teams own IP lacks independent evolution odd said component/part.
Simply posessing a dosier or files is not enough to hammer down a team.

7. Cease the retroactive punishement of teams as from the 2008 season.

8. Rules stated at the begining of the season cannot be ammended throughout the year to grandfather "changes designs or concepts" that as the rules clearly state are in violtion.

9. Each team gets 1 ( and only 1) member to join the rules and competition commitee that evaluates and verifies the legality of new components requested throughout the year. Team member may not disclose any technical information to their team and serve only to verify and assess the legality of the components rather than pass judgement to minimize their competitive disadvantege. 75% majority required to disapprove new components.

That's what I would implement if I were leading the FIA, no more backroom dealings, no more secret pacts just good sound business. If the NFL and FIFA can use arbitration, then why not F1

[truefan72]

I think a distinction between spying and theft needs to be made. Spying is OK. They all do it and nobody has a problem with it. Taking photos and doing various forms of analysis on other cars is OK. Taking actual data, in whatever medium, is not. That's theft, or the receipt of stolen goods, and that's what McLaren were found guilty of and what Renault are being investigated for.

I agree in part but feel that the criteria should be set to "using actual data"
everyone copies,passes on information etc. Every business corporation in every industry does it. They reverse engineer, they posees other companies data etc. But itis only when coke tastes exactly like pepsi, when lays bbq chips taste like herr's bbq chips, when McD's comes ut with onion rings that are identical to Burger King's etc, that the other company sues for patent infrigment. It happens in the movie/tv business in clothing companes, everywhere. Simply possessing info is not enough, in my book, to hand down draconian penalties.

[mstillhere]

Shouldn't someone be getting upset at the title of this thread ?

They have been accused , not convicted .

Given that Flavio was shouting that he would have liked the weight distribution info on the Ferrari as well , back when the data was streaming to McLaren from the reds , is it inconceivable that he is in the same situation that Ron said he was in ?

Perhaps he didn't know .

Not that that should excuse him from being responsible , as he signed on as being so , just like Ron .
But , that will likely be his story , using his public disdain for the McLaren saga as evidence of his state of mind at the time , using Ron's precedent to cop a lesser fine due to a lesser amount of info .

Playing in Flavio's favour also , is the fact that Renault never really looked like they had a hope , showing that , if they had a peek , they certainly didn't show it . It sure didn't look like the had .

I was witing for this. look how all the mcLaren fans sticking up for their team, in total denial, hanging on shred of excuse available.But forget about applying the same rules of innocent until proven guilty. How hypocritical! This thread is revolting. What an unplesant spectacle!!! I always knew that everybody defending McLaren were doing it out of spite, and this is the prove. Way to go McLAren fans!!! Way to go..........

[mstillhere]

WOW@!!!! McLaren under scrutiny and Renault maeby in troulble too??? I am sure Ferrari is enjoyng all this :) :) :) :)

[BDunnell]

But I don't know if their stance would be the same if there wouldn't already have been the McLaren case with it's outcome.

Interesting point, although if the account is true, their 'stance' on the situation had nothing to do with the McLaren case because it had all been 'resolved' before we knew anything about it. And the statement is just as open to other interpretations as anything else we've seen recently.

[passmeatissue]

Renault obviously is putting the most positive spin on it. But here is another view, from grandprix.com ..
"Given what Renault has admitted it is fairly clear that the team is in at least as bad a situation as was McLaren - something which Flavio Briatore denied when the first rumours emerged about the problem.
Some would argue that this is much worse as Renault is admitting that the information was inside its factory and in its computer network - something which McLaren denied being the case with the documents that Mike Coughlan received from Ferrari and of which not trace has been found despite strenuous efforts by the FIA.
The argument that not much information was involved is irrelevant as the FIA rules do not quantify how much espionage is acceptable. A dozen disks are as bad as 780 pages of paperwork.
The fact that there are witness statements from a number of Renault engineers (we hear the number is 15) admitting that they have seen the data suggests that this is much more of a problem than was the case against McLaren."
(http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19855.html)
Another site said the data was only removed a year after the engineer started at Renault, and that some of the engineers who saw it and signed the witness statements/admissions were pretty senior. Also Flav has been quoted saying that McLaren should automatically have been thrown out of both championships, for spying.

So far Max has kept quiet, we'll have to see which way he spins it. He's in a tight spot.

[passmeatissue]

The problem with that being the FIA cannot dictate what Bernie/FOM pays out, so its easy to assume that the combined fine plus resulting payout Mcleran lost would = 100, however there is nothing stopping Bernie from taking Ron into a back room and saying "you guys did I fine job, I think you still deserve the 2nd place prize money, there you go old chap"

Anyone can give them money, but the fine was $100m.


This is by far the most idoitic thing I've read on here in days!!! Sue Ferrari for using the data the police uncovered? use it for what? stand up comedy? what could Ferrari have any use of that information? it may have been passed on to the FIA who then used it against McLeran BUT Fererri used it too? Maybe ALonso passed on a secret Mcleran recipe for brownies that Ferrari used at a formula 1 bake sale?

Ferrari produced it as evidence. As in the UK, you can't just get someone's phone records for private use. Not legally, anyway.


We now have conflicting reports on this, renault said, and in enough detail that if they are proven right, would suggest the possibility of the macs still using mass dampers and other funny gadgets also deemed illegal, all found on 3 floppies disks.

Any design is legal at the design stage. Renault were just saying that they couldn't have benefitted from those designs.


And then we have another story claiming this is much worse the what the Macs had on Ferrari...

And if the evidence proves Renault acted correctly on this matter? As I suggested earlier, should this prove to be nothing more then McLeran attempting to regain some dignity after the steyney-gate then I hope FIA has a couple more books they can throw at them...

If that's proved, it's proved, but at this point in time, it doesn't look likely. Renault look in trouble. And Max.

[Hondo]

I don't think Renault has too much to worry about. McLaren races for a living. Renault sells street cars for a living. Renault has been in and out of F1. Back in 2005 they were making noises like they wouldn't be in F1 for 2007. If Renault is found to be in violation of one or more sporting regulations the FIA will not hammer them like they did McLaren because Renault will tell Max to stuff it and leave F1. Oddly enough, the results of the FIA's inspection of McLaren's 2008 car will not be released until the Renault matter is settled. If Renault is found to be in violation and suffers a minor penalty, McLaren will be told to smile and agree it's fair or there could be some problem areas with the 2008 car. If everybody plays nice, McLaren's 2008 car will be certified as 100% McLaren and the 2008 season will be saved.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the team owners have already been quietly discussing a new, breakaway series again. Especially since there is no new agreement in place.

[raikk]

coming from a ''biased'' Mclaren fan I really think this is BS.. Renault said they even told the FIA and Mclaren as soon as they go it so I don't think they should be guilty... this whole spy thing is a joke.. it's been going on for ages and just now all of a sudden Formula 1 teams are spying on eachother.. yaah right!

[wmcot]

McLaren told some lies at the hearing, trying to deny any wrongdoing at all. They should have admitted what did happen.

This was wrong, clearly, but trivial.

If you are ever in a court of law, try lying and see how "trivial" the court thinks it is!

[wmcot]

Renault gonna go bankrupt with a 100million fine..

how can you combat one of your thousand employee steal information from the work place and sells it to a competitor? well..sacking is the only thing can happen of the employee both side, WHY PUNISHING THE TEAM AS A WHOLE????

Did you forget that F1 is a TEAM SPORT????? And businesses prevent espionage every day.

Whether it is 1 employee or 100 employees involved, theft and espionage is wrong and needs to be punished. If you want to accept that as OK, then what is next? Poisoning another team's drivers?

[wmcot]

pssst. F1 data is not a credit card ;)

Aren't they both forms of confidential information???

[wmcot]

coming from a ''biased'' Mclaren fan I really think this is BS.. Renault said they even told the FIA and Mclaren as soon as they go it so I don't think they should be guilty... this whole spy thing is a joke.. it's been going on for ages and just now all of a sudden Formula 1 teams are spying on eachother.. yaah right!

It's just been raised to a higher (or deeper) level and the media has more access to the information on the cases. The FIA must do something to try and save face when these things become public.

(Of course, there are still those who claim the whole issue is Ferrari's fault! Even Damon Hill - who is hardly unbiased - is still linking Ferrari to the problem with spying "tarnishing" the sport. He still doesn't understand the definition of legality regarding Ferrari's floor in Melbourne!) http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=33371

[Daniel]

coming from a ''biased'' Mclaren fan I really think this is BS.. Renault said they even told the FIA and Mclaren as soon as they go it so I don't think they should be guilty... this whole spy thing is a joke.. it's been going on for ages and just now all of a sudden Formula 1 teams are spying on eachother.. yaah right!
If all of the teams are caught then that will encourage all of the teams not to cheat. Simple enough really.....

[markabilly]

When one considers the content of the information, appearently mass dampers are involved, perhaps this secret form of mass damper is illegal and threfore of little or no use. Even more interesting is the FIA statement rebutuall to Hill that discussed the floor device, and NOTES THAT A DEVICE SIMILAR IN EFFECT WAS BEING ALSO BEING USED BY MAC

[passmeatissue]

If you are ever in a court of law, try lying and see how "trivial" the court thinks it is!

Well it wasn't a court of law. But in any case you wouldn't throw the team out of the WMC and fine them $100m for that lying would you? It needs to be proportionate. Otherwise, how would you punish the FIA for saying that the first WMSC decsision was unanimous, when the Italian delegate was already complaining about it? A lie.

Everything was built up as though McLaren was the only team ever to have used another team's data. Now it becoming (even) clearer that they are not, as Bernie's 'crisis meeting' with the other teams demonstrates. It's normal in F1 to use whatever you can get.

[passmeatissue]

Aren't they both forms of confidential information???

They are not identical either, are they? It was an analogy to avoid discussing the real issue. Do I condone theft etc etc - of course I don't, that was not the point.

[passmeatissue]

It's just been raised to a higher (or deeper) level and the media has more access to the information on the cases. The FIA must do something to try and save face when these things become public.

(Of course, there are still those who claim the whole issue is Ferrari's fault! Even Damon Hill - who is hardly unbiased - is still linking Ferrari to the problem with spying "tarnishing" the sport. He still doesn't understand the definition of legality regarding Ferrari's floor in Melbourne!) http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=33371

Hill is the one who understands the regs. Read them, there is no way a partially sprung floor met 3.15. 3.17 had to be met as well as, not instead of, 3.15 (see 2.4). The FIA added 3.17.6 to get Ferrari off the hook after Melbourne.

[wmcot]

Well it wasn't a court of law. But in any case you wouldn't throw the team out of the WMC and fine them $100m for that lying would you?

The fact is that they were lying about espionage! That's a much bigger problem than telling a simple lie. You can't separate the two parts - they had the information - they lied about having the information - they lied about how much information they had. It's far more serious than lying by itself.

I probably wouldn't fine McLaren (or Renault if found to be guilty.) I would suggest that the team earns no WCC or WDC points for that season with a probationary period for the next season based on further evidence of espionage. The loss of championship points and revenue would be a fine in itself.

[wmcot]

They are not identical either, are they?

Well it wasn't a court of law.


You have a problem with analogies, don't you?

[wmcot]

Hill is the one who understands the regs. Read them, there is no way a partially sprung floor met 3.15. 3.17 had to be met as well as, not instead of, 3.15 (see 2.4). The FIA added 3.17.6 to get Ferrari off the hook after Melbourne.

But "dear old Damon" forgot to mention that the FIA determined that McLaren and RedBull were running similar devices, didn't he?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63877

[Hondo]

Dateline Paris Feb. 25, 2008..........................................

In a statement released today, FIA President Max Mosley sought to reassure the fans of Formula 1 that the FIA does indeed listen to, and respond to public opinion. " Many of you have voiced your displeasure over the verdict of the Ferrari-McLaren affair, especially in light of the fact that McLaren didn't actively solicit the documents and were themselves, in a sense, victims of the actions of a rogue Ferrari employee." said Mosley. "Therefore, in the matter of the McLaren-Renault affair, we can announce with pride that McLaren has been fined $100 million dollars for allowing a rogue/former employee to violate sporting regulation 151c by sharing McLaren intellectual property with Renault. In addition, McLaren will not be allowed to collect points towards the constructor's championship in the 2008 season." He continued " Renault has been fined $15, one dollar for each Renault engineer that saw the data." Mosley stated that he felt confident this verdict would address the issues of fair play raised by the public.

He also confirmed that a complaint had been filed by Ferrari against Force India over the theft of Ferrari intellectual property because of Force India's use of an uppercase "F" in the team name. No hearing date has been set.

Renault has expressed shock and outrage over the amount of the fine and will appeal the verdict. Said Flav " Fifteen dollars is outragous! This could break us!"

[markabilly]

Just when I thought it be safe to put my well worn copy of the prince back on the shelf....oh well,

I was reading the story of the time of a certain village was in turmoil with open rebellion everywhere and the prince sends in a certain character to "take care of da dirty rats". After much taking care, and other executions, da prince gets wind of the people outcry, so he shows up, expresses dismay and disgust at the gusto of the faithful servant, and has the faithful servant terminated with extreme prejudice aka "taken care of", much to the relief and joy of the remaining few, who swore blind loyalty forever to their merciful prince


Now, turning our attention to the village in turmoil, we have the Flavio who has rocked the boat upon occaision, and RD who has rocked the boat much more seriously. Flavio is the business partner of bernie and bernie is the god of the sport and friend of Max, but RD is the one big pain in the but who can not get his golden boy choker to win the wdc, much to the dismay of revenue---So what to do?

The investigation based on character references of Bernie as to flavio's outstanding character will reveal that Flavio, unlike RD, took all appropriate measures to maintain the sanctuality of the sport......other details to be worked out....


Weell nooow i said details to be worked out, however the following seems to have done that quite nicely


Dateline Paris Feb. 25, 2008..........................................

In a statement released today, FIA President Max Mosley sought to reassure the fans of Formula 1 that the FIA does indeed listen to, and respond to public opinion. " Many of you have voiced your displeasure over the verdict of the Ferrari-McLaren affair, especially in light of the fact that McLaren didn't actively solicit the documents and were themselves, in a sense, victims of the actions of a rogue Ferrari employee." said Mosley. "Therefore, in the matter of the McLaren-Renault affair, we can announce with pride that McLaren has been fined $100 million dollars for allowing a rogue/former employee to violate sporting regulation 151c by sharing McLaren intellectual property with Renault. In addition, McLaren will not be allowed to collect points towards the constructor's championship in the 2008 season." He continued " Renault has been fined $15, one dollar for each Renault engineer that saw the data." Mosley stated that he felt confident this verdict would address the issues of fair play raised by the public.

He also confirmed that a complaint had been filed by Ferrari against Force India over the theft of Ferrari intellectual property because of Force India's use of an uppercase "F" in the team name. No hearing date has been set.

Renault has expressed shock and outrage over the amount of the fine and will appeal the verdict. Said Flav " Fifteen dollars is outragous! This could break us!"


But you fogot to add:

" Renault and Maclaren computers will no longer be allowed to be able to use or access floppy disks and they will be inspected to be sure that this rule is strictly obeyed for the entire year of 2008"

"Further, to prevent further such incidents in the future, all teams are hereby ordered to handle all spying issues internally and no team may take advantage of the secrets of another team on "how to cheat without being caught" without suspending the engineer providing the information for an indefinite period of time; however all such future matters will not be disclosed to the public to preserve the integrity of the sport"

"Finally there is no truth to the rumors that the new FIA inspection sticker was deliberately designed to be identical to the team logo of a certain team jointly owned by two certain individuals and will now be one foot and by two feet, to be displayed in a prominent postion on both sides of all cars in competition as the design was simply a mere coincidence."


Of course, we should not be too smug about this, as the actual events and rulings will be more outlandish than anything that could be dreamed up,,,,,,,,,

[Valve Bounce]

Gee!! the end of season Blues are affecting us badly this time of year. :(

[passmeatissue]

You have a problem with analogies, don't you?

Absolutely! They're used to avoid talking about the actual subject and take the discussion onto something else. For example, someone who wants to defend a partisan view about the McLaren WMSC hearings but hasn't read the verdict or the transcripts, can start talking about credit cards.

[passmeatissue]

But "dear old Damon" forgot to mention that the FIA determined that McLaren and RedBull were running similar devices, didn't he?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63877

Well I personally am hoping to get a bit more information about this. Max saying that McLaren were running the same floor as Ferrari doesn't square with Jonathan Neale trying to introduce the issue into the WMSC hearing.

But even if McLaren were, that wouldn't make it comply. The problem is that the FIA said the design complied with the letter of the rules, but it did not. Read clause 3.15. It's no answer to say "the FIA said it was OK". That is the problem, not the solution.

[BDunnell]

Absolutely! They're used to avoid talking about the actual subject and take the discussion onto something else. For example, someone who wants to defend a partisan view about the McLaren WMSC hearings but hasn't read the verdict or the transcripts, can start talking about credit cards.

And very often, such comparisons are largely irrelevant because no direct comparisons can be made between situations in one field and another.

[tinchote]

But even if McLaren were, that wouldn't make it comply. The problem is that the FIA said the design complied with the letter of the rules, but it did not. Read clause 3.15. It's no answer to say "the FIA said it was OK". That is the problem, not the solution.

That's not the case, because for obvious reasons the enforcement of the rules is made in terms of measurements. Otherwise, a marshal would be able to say for example "this part flexes too much" and ban a car. Rules like 3.15 express what is usually called "the spirit of the rules", which is the guide used to determine the measurement test. And that's precisely what happened after Australia: it was noted that these movable floors complied with the letter of the rules but not the spirit, and the measurements were changed accordingly.

[Daniel]

Tinchote. This is a classic case of everyone sucks except for who I support. Facts or truth don't enter into this argument.

[Azumanga Davo]

Dateline Paris Feb. 25, 2008..........................................

In a statement released today, FIA President Max Mosley sought to reassure the fans of Formula 1 that the FIA does indeed listen to, and respond to public opinion..... "

And we have told him how he is a nong and asked him to leave the post for how many years now? :D

[passmeatissue]

That's not the case, because for obvious reasons the enforcement of the rules is made in terms of measurements. Otherwise, a marshal would be able to say for example "this part flexes too much" and ban a car. Rules like 3.15 express what is usually called "the spirit of the rules", which is the guide used to determine the measurement test. And that's precisely what happened after Australia: it was noted that these movable floors complied with the letter of the rules but not the spirit, and the measurements were changed accordingly.

This is being discussed (I hope) in detail on the FIA slams Hill thread, please join in there :)

[Malbec]

Well well well, the FIA are in a bit of a tight spot. They set a precedent by hitting McLaren very hard but the problem with that is that they then have to hit any other team doing something similar equally hard to be seen as being fair.

In this case McLaren info was actually on a Renault computer and 15 engineers are supposed to have seen the data which is 14 more than in the McLaren case. On the face of it the evidence against Renault is stronger than the evidence against Mclaren was, so what is the FIA going to do?

Interestingly I also can't see Alonso being all too keen to sign up for a team that might suddenly not be scoring any points in 2008 and may have a whopping fine put against them so where is he going to go?

[markabilly]

Well I personally am hoping to get a bit more information about this. Max saying that McLaren were running the same floor as Ferrari doesn't square with Jonathan Neale trying to introduce the issue into the WMSC hearing.

But even if McLaren were, that wouldn't make it comply. The problem is that the FIA said the design complied with the letter of the rules, but it did not. Read clause 3.15. It's no answer to say "the FIA said it was OK". That is the problem, not the solution.
Max does not really say this ---what he says is the test was changed or revised, and as a result, the three teams had a floor problem. The Mac design could have been totally different, may not have lowered as much, may not have relied on springs, may have used some special composite material that flexed/deflected at speed....

there has never really been much of an explanation for how the ferrari floor actually operated, and its design details. Same for the Mac and RB floors.

So one can not really say much except to speculate.

[wmcot]

Well I personally am hoping to get a bit more information about this. Max saying that McLaren were running the same floor as Ferrari doesn't square with Jonathan Neale trying to introduce the issue into the WMSC hearing.

But even if McLaren were, that wouldn't make it comply. The problem is that the FIA said the design complied with the letter of the rules, but it did not. Read clause 3.15. It's no answer to say "the FIA said it was OK". That is the problem, not the solution.

Actually Max said a "similar device" but we don't have the details to know if it was the same design. I assume he means that the device had the same effect (flexing floors) whether it was the same design or not.

So you are agreeing that if the Ferrari floor was "illegal" there is the possibility that the McLaren and RedBull floors were also "illegal" at Melbourne according to 3.15?

[passmeatissue]

Actually Max said a "similar device" but we don't have the details to know if it was the same design. I assume he means that the device had the same effect (flexing floors) whether it was the same design or not.

So you are agreeing that if the Ferrari floor was "illegal" there is the possibility that the McLaren and RedBull floors were also "illegal" at Melbourne according to 3.15?

Yes I think I have to :mad: . I posted on the Max slams Hill thread that the Macca floor seems to have hinged down too.

[passmeatissue]

Well well well, the FIA are in a bit of a tight spot. They set a precedent by hitting McLaren very hard but the problem with that is that they then have to hit any other team doing something similar equally hard to be seen as being fair.

In this case McLaren info was actually on a Renault computer and 15 engineers are supposed to have seen the data which is 14 more than in the McLaren case. On the face of it the evidence against Renault is stronger than the evidence against Mclaren was, so what is the FIA going to do?

Interestingly I also can't see Alonso being all too keen to sign up for a team that might suddenly not be scoring any points in 2008 and may have a whopping fine put against them so where is he going to go?

Ron could have stitched Fernando up, couldn't he, if he'd waited till he'd signed and the other teams had confirmed their drivers, then made the complaint. Bet he was tempted.

[ioan]

Ron could have stitched Fernando up, couldn't he, if he'd waited till he'd signed and the other teams had confirmed their drivers, then made the complaint. Bet he was tempted.

No he couldn't, he complained about Renault already back in August. ;)

[passmeatissue]

No he couldn't, he complained about Renault already back in August. ;)

"But while conducting an interview with team boss Briatore, a journalist for The Times says the Italian "seemed puzzled as to why McLaren had waited so long to make a formal complaint to the FIA, which they did this week."

In the days leading up to Renault's FIA summons, McLaren refugee Fernando Alonso was reportedly imminently close to agreeing a deal to return to the French team in 2008."
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/071111165618.shtml

[ArrowsFA1]

It's ironic that when Pat Symonds was asked by Nigel Roebuck if he thought McLaren were guilty he said "yes, I suppose so", but when asked what exactly they were guilty of he said "not very much".

In the light of what's happening to Renault I wonder if he has the same opinion now.

[SGWilko]

It's ironic that when Pat Symonds was asked by Nigel Roebuck if he thought McLaren were guilty he said "yes, I suppose so", but when asked what exactly they were guilty of he said "not very much".

In the light of what's happening to Renault I wonder if he has the same opinion now.

Perhaps when he was quoted, he might have known the faecal matter was inevitably going to hit the rotating blade air cooling device at some future point........

[raikk]

If all of the teams are caught then that will encourage all of the teams not to cheat. Simple enough really.....

they waited waay to long for this one I know exactly why too but If I say it I will get into a whole **** war with all the Ferrari fans :laugh:

[PSfan]

I would like to add yet again that yes there is precedent regarding how to deal with Renault over this latest spy scandal:

As found on grandprix.com:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
JULY 26, 2007
No punishment for McLaren F1 team
The World Council gathers
© FIA Media
The FIA World Motor Sports Council has decided not to impose any penalty on McLaren. The FIA said after the hearing that it would pursue action against Coughlan and Ferrari engineer Nigel Stepney.

The governing body said that there was no doubt that the team's chief designer Mike Coughlan had had the leaked information but there was no proof that McLaren had benefited from it.

The FIA reserved the right to summon McLaren again if it was suspected that the team had made use of any of the data.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19454.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why is this such a hard concept? It wasn't until the so called communications between the drivers that proved that their was atleast some intent to use the data that the book was thrown at McLeran, Renault and Flav are insisting that they did not benefit at all by having the Mcleran designs:

As found on speed (and probably everywhere else but Grandprix.com (wonder why?)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"“We gave to [FIA President Max] Mosley all the correspondence and the evidence and a statement from our engineers making clear we never used any McLaren system in our car."

"I am confident the information was not used, and not only me. We have witness statements from every engineer that was involved and, categorically, everybody says that there was no influence of any of these things on the design of our car."

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/41550/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

So assuming that Flav isn't pulling a Ron Dennis and lieing threw his teeth, based on precedent, should Renault get the same original punishment as MacLeran did?

[GP-M3]

So assuming that Flav isn't pulling a Ron Dennis and lieing threw his teeth, based on precedent, should Renault get the same original punishment as MacLeran did?

Well put, much better than the most recent opinion piece on GrandPrix.com, where he suggests the only option is to give them a $100M fine. He's turned into a Mac cheerleader... he's lost a lot of credibility on this.

Your opinion was excellent though... I think they should likely get the same ORIGINAL punishment as the Mac did.

PS: We see the difference between having Ferrari data (Mac turned into reliable world beaters from also rans the year before) and Renault who went from world beaters to pud beat... well you get the idea, when they had some Mac data from the previous / pre-Ferrari year. LOL - OK it's a joke some of you, don't get all riled up!

[ioan]

PS: We see the difference between having Ferrari data (Mac turned into reliable world beaters from also rans the year before) and Renault who went from world beaters to pud beat... well you get the idea, when they had some Mac data from the previous / pre-Ferrari year. LOL - OK it's a joke some of you, don't get all riled up!

Good one! ;) :up:

[passmeatissue]

I'm sure Flav and Max are going to play for the original "punishment". However that was based on no evidence that the dossier really got into the team, it was just briefly shown to Jonathan Neale who immediately told him to get rid of it. It was not that it couldn't be seen in the car, that was still the case at the second hearing when they got the points taken away and the $100m fine. The no-punishment case was that only Coughlan had the dossier, and the team were guilty only in the technical sense, that they are automatically responsible for the behaviour of their staff.

The difference is that Renault had the data in their computer system, it was widely viewed and was there for 8 months.

So Max has work to do.

[markabilly]

I'm sure Flav and Max are going to play for the original "punishment". However that was based on no evidence that the dossier really got into the team, it was just briefly shown to Jonathan Neale who immediately told him to get rid of it. It was not that it couldn't be seen in the car, that was still the case at the second hearing when they got the points taken away and the $100m fine. The no-punishment case was that only Coughlan had the dossier, and the team were guilty only in the technical sense, that they are automatically responsible for the behaviour of their staff.

The difference is that Renault had the data in their computer system, it was widely viewed and was there for 8 months.

So Max has work to do.

But beyond viewing, was it tested or used too? Does any driver have certain emails they would like to share with us??? :idea:

[passmeatissue]

But beyond viewing, was it tested or used too? Does any driver have certain emails they would like to share with us??? :idea:

Well OK, the emails are an extra factor but they didn't lead anywhere in particular. The gas was never tried and the weight distribution couldn't be used. There was some stuff about pitstops but nothing to show that the Ferrari data were "used", on the car.

Renault can't really improve on this. They can say they haven't used the data, but they only end up in the same situation as McLaren, at best. The data were all over the engineering department.

For me the fact that they left the data hanging around for so long, and let so many people in on it, shows that in F1 this is just normal. But the McLaren precedent is there for the WMSC, and even if Max makes some clever arguments he'll struggle to stop the headlines saying "bias" unless Renault do get a similar penalty.

[ioan]

Well OK, the emails are an extra factor but they didn't lead anywhere in particular. The gas was never tried and the weight distribution couldn't be used. There was some stuff about pitstops but nothing to show that the Ferrari data were "used", on the car.

We are waiting to know how all this has been proved!

[SGWilko]

We are waiting to know how all this has been proved!

I am not entirely sur ethat the use of Ferrari data CAN be proved, can it.....?

And now, as the situation stands, it looks as if the FIA team looking at the 2008 McLaren for Ferrari ideas (that one still makes me snigger), are going to have to divide their time between Woking and now Enstone - looking for McLaren ideas in the 2008 Renault.

That immortal line from Blazing Saddles "Darn it Mr Lamar Sir, you use your tongue prettier than a $20 dollar whore" really, IMO, ought to apply to Max!!!!!

[ioan]

I am not entirely sur ethat the use of Ferrari data CAN be proved, can it.....?

In any case the emails between the drivers were saying that they were going to test the Ferrari solutions. This is more of a used than not used sign! ;)

[SGWilko]

In any case the emails between the drivers were saying that they were going to test the Ferrari solutions. This is more of a used than not used sign! ;)

Yes, don't get me wrong, I think the loss of WCC points and the fine was justified (I don't agree with the amount of the fine though).

But, if I enter F1, as the 12th team - lets say ShoeString F1 - and I see an innovative feature on a competitors car, which my technical dept try out, would I get penalised for it? I know that is simplistic, but we can agree that Weight Dist can be (quite accurately guestimated) by looking at a craned car? Is that spying? It may be that most of the non dossier info on Ferrari in the McLaren HQ could have been gained from other than NS - were all the txt messages and phone call transcripts made available for their content, was that info actually available?

It is the proof of the use of IP that is going to be the bugbear, and this 'Ferrari Idea's' shennigans that Max (an intelligent man, apparently) came out with that astounds me.

[GP-M3]

Yes, don't get me wrong, I think the loss of WCC points and the fine was justified (I don't agree with the amount of the fine though).

The amount of the fine was rather bogus though... they were allowed to deduct their TV rights/Winnings this year, based on how many points they scored. (Since they had and used Ferrari data) they scored high in the points and thus were given a huge deduction.

It was a smokescreen. IMO: They should have disqualified them from the winnings this year, then given then some reasonable (but high - though far less than $100m) fine with a simple monetary amount.

[passmeatissue]

In any case the emails between the drivers were saying that they were going to test the Ferrari solutions. This is more of a used than not used sign! ;)

One of the drivers being FA, whom Montezemolo was being so nice about afterwards :p

[BDunnell]

We are waiting to know how all this has been proved!

The truth is that it can't be to any degree that is permissible in a court of law — just as all the other accusations about F1 (FIA bias towards Ferrari, FIA bias towards Hamilton, Ecclestone bias towards Schumacher, Ecclestone bias towards Hamilton, etc, etc, etc) can't be proved.

The more I read about all of these primary issues — the McLaren spying affair, the Renault spying affair, the moving floors — the more confused I get.

[ioan]

The truth is that it can't be to any degree that is permissible in a court of law — just as all the other accusations about F1 (FIA bias towards Ferrari, FIA bias towards Hamilton, Ecclestone bias towards Schumacher, Ecclestone bias towards Hamilton, etc, etc, etc) can't be proved.

The more I read about all of these primary issues — the McLaren spying affair, the Renault spying affair, the moving floors — the more confused I get.

Flexing floors, please! ;)

Anyway, lets hope that next season we get action only on the tracks. :)

For now I'm enjoying MS' testing sessions! :D

[BDunnell]

Flexing floors, please! ;)

Anyway, lets hope that next season we get action only on the tracks. :)


Flexing, moving — same difference! If you disagree, ask Bernie and Max, not me. ;)

:up: to the second comment. I'd also like a lack of conspiracy theories...

[PSfan]

But, if I enter F1, as the 12th team - lets say ShoeString F1 - and I see an innovative feature on a competitors car, which my technical dept try out, would I get penalised for it? I know that is simplistic, but we can agree that Weight Dist can be (quite accurately guestimated) by looking at a craned car? Is that spying? It may be that most of the non dossier info on Ferrari in the McLaren HQ could have been gained from other than NS - were all the txt messages and phone call transcripts made available for their content, was that info actually available?


Good point, I suppose once this Renault spy scandal is taken care of, MacLeran will then lodge a protest against BMW for using those "horns" on their car?

But actually, the MacLeran/BMW horns can be used as a prime example of what is acceptable practice regarding F1 "spying"

If BMW had used pictures and such taken during practices and GP's to help them imitate the horns, then thats acceptable

If They had some stolen blueprints that helped them in the design process... well that would warrent the $100 fine


Also getting back to the whole "at least 15 people at Renault knew about them" whats the relevance to that? Do we know how many people had access to the Ferrari documents at McLeran? we at least know their drivers did, so I suspect it must have been alot more widespread at MacLeran then Renault.

Also I do recall an article on speedtv.com suggesting that not only did Alonso suggest they try using the same gas in the tires, but MacLeran actually attempted to create those gasses but failed. I'll try to find a link to that, but I don't think speed keeps archives...

[BDunnell]

If They had some stolen blueprints that helped them in the design process... well that would warrent the $100 fine


A $100 fine? Sounds reasonable to me.

[ioan]

A $100 fine? Sounds reasonable to me.

And cheaper than paying a photograph to take all those needed pictures, not to mention the wind tunnel costs! :D

[BDunnell]

And cheaper than paying a photograph to take all those needed pictures, not to mention the wind tunnel costs! :D

I'd do the shots for nothing — apart from a paddock pass. And I'd do them for either Super Aguri or Force India, because no-one would care.

[PSfan]

A $100 fine? Sounds reasonable to me.


Thats $100 in PSfan dollars, after exchange, it would end up being about $100 Million in US dollars. :p : Hard to give a proper figure since the US dollar seems to be dropping so fast. So on a side note, was the original fine in US dollars or in pounds? If it was expected in US currency then MacLeran will have to pay alot less now then when the punishment was handed out.

[passmeatissue]

Can I make a prediction? Only very slightly a diversion...

For 2009 McLaren will recruit an engineer from Ferrari, with evidence that the data the FIA "squad" took from McLaren last week ended up in Ferrari. Having been vetted there for ideas. :grenade:

The squad, if you haven't read about it, refused to sign confidentiality agreements. And I can't see how anyone but Ferrari people are supposed to check for Ferrari ideas in what they took away. Or any other reason to take stuff away.

Maybe transparency will eventually reveal something better.

[ArrowsFA1]

I'd do the shots for nothing — apart from a paddock pass. And I'd do them for either Super Aguri or Force India, because no-one would care.
One question which I'm not sure has been answered amid all these 'theft of IP' cases is why did Ferrari challenge Toyota through the courts (and not the FIA), and McLaren via the FIA (and the courts)?

What was the difference between the cases? Were they more sure of their legal case against Toyota? Were there legal differences between the cases? Or was it that no-one cared enough about a team that wasn't a threat?

The same applies to McLaren. Why would they not prosecute their former employee, and/or Renault, for theft of IP through the courts?

[ioan]

One question which I'm not sure has been answered amid all these 'theft of IP' cases is why did Ferrari challenge Toyota through the courts (and not the FIA), and McLaren via the FIA (and the courts)?

What was the difference between the cases? Were they more sure of their legal case against Toyota? Were there legal differences between the cases? Or was it that no-one cared enough about a team that wasn't a threat?

I think I already answered this once not so long ago.
As you say they didn't go to the FIA cause the team was new, didn't won anything, were not going to have a TV income in their first year.

On the other hand, as in the McLaren case with Stepney and Coughlan, Ferrari took the offending employees to legal court.

It looks similar to me.

[BDunnell]

I think I already answered this once not so long ago.
As you say they didn't go to the FIA cause the team was new, didn't won anything, were not going to have a TV income in their first year.


In which case, the moral of the tale is that you can get all the dodgy info you like if you're a new team. I don't think that's right at all.

[ioan]

In which case, the moral of the tale is that you can get all the dodgy info you like if you're a new team. I don't think that's right at all.

You're right it isn't. Or maybe it wasn't, because I believe that from now on this kind of things might stop. At least I hope so.

[PSfan]

Well from what I could gather looking at news archives is, in regards to the Toyota affair, it seems in 2003 (their 2nd season) there was suspicion that Toyota where using Ferrari designs, but formal charges weren't laid until sometime in 2005, so I suspect that their wasn't enough evidence until it would have been a moot point anyways probably mid 2004.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19067.html

Whats more interesting is that there is no longer much mention about Spyker having possession of the Red Bull/ Toro Rosso designs earlier this year... FIA seemed to ignore that... once again it seems a determining factor is what you do with the stolen property, or perhaps attempt to...

[wmcot]

Whats more interesting is that there is no longer much mention about Spyker having possession of the Red Bull/ Toro Rosso designs earlier this year... FIA seemed to ignore that... once again it seems a determining factor is what you do with the stolen property, or perhaps attempt to...

With Spyker you would have to determine who to fine. Was the data in the possession of Spyker or Midland or maybe back to Jordan. Then again, you might get some money from Force India! Even the FIA can't hit a target that moves that fast!

[Malbec]

One question which I'm not sure has been answered amid all these 'theft of IP' cases is why did Ferrari challenge Toyota through the courts (and not the FIA), and McLaren via the FIA (and the courts)?

I don't believe Ferrari ever legally challenged Toyota through the courts. The police had evidence that Toyota employees had committed a crime and therefore didn't need permission from the 'victim' to investigate and prosecute.

I also think that the FIA made a big error in not investigating Toyota, after all the IP theft there had been proven in criminal courts with a higher burden of proof then the FIA has ever required, it should have been an open and shut case with only the degree of punishment up for discussion.

The appearance of being inconsistent with letting Toyota get away with it despite overwhelming evidence and two criminal judgments against them whilst investigating and punishing McLaren hard with less evidence doesn't put the FIA in a good light.