Is FA departure going to hurt LH?

[OTA]

So FA is gone. FA claimed at one point in the season that he had brought some 0,6sec to Mac. Are those 0,6sec leaving with him or on the other hand will they stay? Has LH enjoy a free ride in terms of development and set up or on the other hand FA is full of it and LH can do just as good without FA input.

My opinion is that FA will move on and will improve which ever car he sits in. The improvement will obviously be related to the starting point, which it will most likely be mid-filed. On the other hand, LH has to mantain a wining team in winning ways which could be a bit more tricky. This year LH was fabolous when he had nothing to lose, but erratic when real stakes were in play. Is that a weak point in LH habilities or just a rookie trait that will go away as his head goes back to the top of his shoulders.

I think that he will need still a couple of years for his head to get back to reality and next year he will have a tougher time.

Cheers
David

[OmarF1]

Well, first of all I do not think that the improvement of the McLaren car relies only on the presence of Alonso there, and I'm an Alonso supporter. Remember each year at Macca a different team of engineers it is responsible for the desing of the car, this year, 2007 was the turn for the design team that made the 2005 car and that year's car was very fast, for 2008 the team that designed the 2006 car will be responsible for the next, and 06's car was awful.

Hamilton should not care about this situation since no matter who enters the second seat at McLaren he will always be Ron's protegee, and will count with all the support posible from the team, think about it, he has a lot of emotional security there, plus a big bunch of money in the years to come, even if McLaren fails to produce a good car in the years to come, Hamilton will never be fired of the team, he's family. that it's great if Macca becomes a one man team as Ferrari with Schumy, but the bad thing about this is that second the seat it will not be appealing to any driver who respect himself and wants to win a WDC in the future, the only drivers that would like to end up there at Macca, will be proven lapdogs and desperate looking-for-a-final-shot drivers.

Cheers!

[Jimmy Magnusson]

FA bringing six tenths to McLaren is BS. I'm sure he helped, but the car was designed way before he ever touched it. I also suspect that the whole "Lewis is using Fernando's setups!!1!!1!" is pretty much BS also and has been blown way out of proportion.
That's not to say that LH will be teh great next season. Being lead driver is a very different thing to a rookie without preassure. If McLaren gets off to a strong start I think that will help him, but if they struggle I have my doubts about his ability as team leader.
For Fernando to do well and develop a team my own personal theory is that his own needs should be well catered for. Remember that while he helped develop the McLaren in early 07 (Fernando did more testing than any other McLaren driver) everything was still cozy. Renault would benefit greatly from him (that, and the fact that they now have one year's experience on the Bridgestones that troubled them so much this year), and you would assume that the atmosphere within the team would be quite good. If he goes to Red Bull I think that that would possibly turn out quite good too. He would likely be partnered by Coulthard, and that would probably not bring any major problems. You could see DC adopting a Berger-like mentality I think.
About McLaren; I do think they're a big and professional enough organization to be able to move forwards effectivly.

[ArrowsFA1]

There can be little doubt that Hamilton has benefitted from having Alonso as a team-mate. He will have learnt from every aspect of the 2xWDC's time at McLaren. Drivers want to pit themselves against the best and Lewis had that opportunity this year. He will use that experience and be even better in 2008.

I think the 0.6s Alonso claimed he brought to the car was exaggerated. Yes, of course he brought his experience and knowledge with him which would have helped, but so to did the team as a whole. The improvement in performance compared with 2006 was a combination of everyones efforts.

The team know whose setups were used and regardless of who used what, the drivers ended up with the same number of points at the end of the year using the same car. Will Lewis be lost without Fernando's input? I guess we'll get an idea of that next year.

I'll be very interested to see who McLaren sign as a replacement. Will they maintain their policy towards their drivers which caused many difficulties this year, or will they focus on Lewis, particularly as he is no longer a rookie?

Hopefully Fernando will find a team where he feels far more comfortable than he did at McLaren, and a team that can give him the chance to compete at the front. It's a crucial time for him. Regardless of what your view is of this year his reputation has taken a battering and he'll want to re-establish himself quickly.

[ioan]

I guess we will find out next season.

[tinchote]

I think that LH will do very well next year. Those claiming that he only did well because of his teammate, they seem to know very little about F1 history. Many drivers have had the chance of driving a top car - including several rookies - and most of them were not up to their more experienced teammates, even if later they became great drivers. LH's first season has been impressive, so it is natural to assume that he will do great next year.

[VkmSpouge]

The internal pressures within the McLaren will have undoubtedly eased through the departure of Fernando Alonso, that will probably help Hamilton. Alonso's experience in developing a car might well be missed but if McLaren bring in a good driver who can do development work then that should plug the gap. Hamilton is inexperienced as developing F1 cars, something that he must learn, so this winter will be a good time to do it.

[fandango]

I don't think it's really a question of whether Hamilton will suffer, but rather a question of how Hamilton will deal with the new reality at McLaren.

1. People will be expecting great things. It won't be enough to say he's happy just to be there.

2. McLaren don't have such a great recent history of good continuity. There have been quite a few years recently when they have produced a less-then-perfect package. Was Alonso the difference? Could be...?

3. McLaren won't be able to simply throw money at the development team. They have been heavily fined, so I imagine they'll suffer somewhere because of that.

It wouldn't surprise me to see DC back at McLaren on a one year contract. It'd be his last chance to be at the front, so he wouldn't say no. And he'd be fast enough, and gentlemanly enough, to push LH without rocking the boat.

[OTA]

Arrows, I do believe that the so-call equal status policy is more a myth that a reality. I don't doubt that Mac has given equal machinery to both of its drivers, but that aspect I don't doubt of any of the well-funded teams. Never doubted that Rubens or Felipe were given the same material as Schumy, but also I don't doubt that the aim of the Scuderia was to secure titles and MS was their man to do so. Therefore strategies and overall focus were aimed in the direction of making MS WDC.
In Mac this year the season started with the clear focus of making FA WDC. Just remember the Ozzy GP in which they basically set up the pit stops to let FA through. Then after Malasia FA went through a tough couple of races in which he was off the pace in one(Bahrain) and had the incident with Massa in Montmelo.
But then Monaco arrived and all hell broke lose. FA won that race fair and square, but LH did not accept it and that was the end of FA as team leader. From then on LH was their man. Don't tell me that from then on Mac were given the same attention to LH goal than to FA's one because I don't beleive for a second. May be it was media pressure or what ever it was, but from then on LH was the star and Ron wanted to be in his side. Fair from a mentor perpective, but not fair for FA.
I'm not saying that LH did not earn his share in the track, but the kind of attention LH got made him a quite untouchable character. The intrusion of the FIA in Hungary was another clear message that said "don't f..... with this boy". RD did not played a part in it, but he surely went alone quite nicely.
May be Mac gave equal machinery, but sure as hell they did not focus on both the same.
It's logical in a sense, FA has a character that doesn't make him many friends.

You say FA reputation has taken a dip, but I disagree. I think that LH reputation has been raised to a completly new height, but I still consider that FA is widely accepted as a main player in this game. By many he is not considered the best, but that's the same situation we had last year after he cliched his 2nd title. Yes the Brittish and German media have all taken a shot at Alonso as a person and as a driver, but he was 1 point short of the WDC under difficult circumstances. Not his best season, but rivals won't fear him any less.

Cheers
David

[tinchote]

2. McLaren don't have such a great recent history of good continuity. There have been quite a few years recently when they have produced a less-then-perfect package. Was Alonso the difference? Could be...?


That's hard to believe. McLaren's big difference this year was reliability. They were bad in 06, but they were very good in previous years, and Kimi won a lot of races when he was lucky enough that his Mac didn't fall apart. The main reason for the increase in reliability is the cap in rpm and the engine freeze. This year has probably been the year with best reliability overall (all teams). Well, with the exception of Red Bull which seem to buy their hydraulics at the Chinese shop next block ;) :p :

[fandango]

Well, there was that other time a few seasons ago when they produced a dog of a car against all the odds. I don't remember offhand which season it was. Considering their resources, they're failing more than getting it right these days, like Ferrari before Todt.....

[tinchote]

Well, there was that other time a few seasons ago when they produced a dog of a car against all the odds. I don't remember offhand which season it was. Considering their resources, they're failing more than getting it right these days, like Ferrari before Todt.....

I'm not saying they have been producing wonderful cars all the time. But if you look at several ok KR's seasons at McLaren, his issues were with reliability and not speed. As I said, McLaren's big jump in 2007 was in the reliability's department. And I feel that reliability is really an engineering and not a driver issue.

[Spanish]

Arrows, I do believe that the so-call equal status policy is more a myth that a reality. I don't doubt that Mac has given equal machinery to both of its drivers, but that aspect I don't doubt of any of the well-funded teams. Never doubted that Rubens or Felipe were given the same material as Schumy, but also I don't doubt that the aim of the Scuderia was to secure titles and MS was their man to do so. Therefore strategies and overall focus were aimed in the direction of making MS WDC.
In Mac this year the season started with the clear focus of making FA WDC. Just remember the Ozzy GP in which they basically set up the pit stops to let FA through. Then after Malasia FA went through a tough couple of races in which he was off the pace in one(Bahrain) and had the incident with Massa in Montmelo.
But then Monaco arrived and all hell broke lose. FA won that race fair and square, but LH did not accept it and that was the end of FA as team leader. From then on LH was their man. Don't tell me that from then on Mac were given the same attention to LH goal than to FA's one because I don't beleive for a second. May be it was media pressure or what ever it was, but from then on LH was the star and Ron wanted to be in his side. Fair from a mentor perpective, but not fair for FA.
I'm not saying that LH did not earn his share in the track, but the kind of attention LH got made him a quite untouchable character. The intrusion of the FIA in Hungary was another clear message that said "don't f..... with this boy". RD did not played a part in it, but he surely went alone quite nicely.
May be Mac gave equal machinery, but sure as hell they did not focus on both the same.
It's logical in a sense, FA has a character that doesn't make him many friends.

You say FA reputation has taken a dip, but I disagree. I think that LH reputation has been raised to a completly new height, but I still consider that FA is widely accepted as a main player in this game. By many he is not considered the best, but that's the same situation we had last year after he cliched his 2nd title. Yes the Brittish and German media have all taken a shot at Alonso as a person and as a driver, but he was 1 point short of the WDC under difficult circumstances. Not his best season, but rivals won't fear him any less.

Cheers
David

:up: Agree!!!!!!


believe that 2008 will be be a year more difficult for Mclaren and LH that FA.

What pilot (competitive) want to be in the second seat Mclaren after seeing the experience of FA with DR?

It is hoped that LH progress MORE (Will win more than 6 races in 2008?)

Fernando at Renault, Red Bull, Toyota or Williams is not bound to anything. A podium is a success, and a victory, a kick in the Ron ass... ;)

[ioan]

I'm not saying they have been producing wonderful cars all the time. But if you look at several ok KR's seasons at McLaren, his issues were with reliability and not speed. As I said, McLaren's big jump in 2007 was in the reliability's department. And I feel that reliability is really an engineering and not a driver issue.

Allow me to disagree, McLaren were nowhere near Ferrari and Renault last year in terms of speed either.
So they made a big jump in terms of speed to, not only reliability that was brought to them through rpm limitation.

[passmeatissue]

I'm not saying they have been producing wonderful cars all the time. But if you look at several ok KR's seasons at McLaren, his issues were with reliability and not speed. As I said, McLaren's big jump in 2007 was in the reliability's department. And I feel that reliability is really an engineering and not a driver issue.

I agree, for example Kimi would have been wdc in 2005 but for the flatspotted tyre at the Nurburgring, and every year since 1998, except 2004, a McLaren driver either won or was best after Ferrari during the dream team era.

[keysersoze]

There is not a driver in the paddock with Alonso's combination of:

1) outright speed
2) technical abilities
3) gamesmanship, and
4) will to win

Sure, Kimi may excel in one area and Lewis in another and Massa in yet another. But Alonso is the proven package.

Hamilton will continue to do well, but to answer the question, it seems quite clear that the answer is a resounding "yes." Without a doubt, having Alonso in your corner results in an immediate and profound lift. Recently, only Schumacher, Senna, and Prost can claim this sort of sublime ability . . . not Hakkinen, not Villeneuve, not Hill, not Mansell, not Lauda, not Keke, not Jody, not Hunt, not Andretti, not Emerson . . . no one in the last 35 years.

[jens]

Is FA departure going to hurt LH?

Well, for a person, who's not working in the team, it's of course hard to say, how much exactly has Lewis learned during that year. At the end of the year he already seemed very fast with his own setups. If Hamilton gets an experienced technical driver as his #2, from who he can continue learning (although I think LH has already learned quite a lot during his first year), then I guess he won't suffer much. But two inexperienced youngsters at McLaren next year might indeed create little trouble. So we'll have to see, which gamble is Ron willing to take in drivers' choice.

[passmeatissue]

I was wondering whether Lewis's engineers were the B team. You would have expected FA to have been given the best when they both started. I remember Damon Hill swapping to Senna's team after he died, if Alonso's guys are better Lewis could benefit from doing that. Especially if they learned some things from FA. Have to be pretty ruthless I suppose, unless Ron manages the transition for him.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

That's hard to believe. McLaren's big difference this year was reliability. They were bad in 06, but they were very good in previous years, and Kimi won a lot of races when he was lucky enough that his Mac didn't fall apart. The main reason for the increase in reliability is the cap in rpm and the engine freeze. This year has probably been the year with best reliability overall (all teams). Well, with the exception of Red Bull which seem to buy their hydraulics at the Chinese shop next block ;) :p :

Correct. If the new rev limit had not been introduced the fight for the championship would quite possibly have been a Räikkönen/Massa affari :)

[markabilly]

Hamster will suffer....then charm is already starting to wear off because he started with nothing to lose, borrowed FA's set ups. Once the real pressure set in, he folded.

BIG TIME

He lost it, even though he had outstanding support from his team, and what is really surprizing is how well FA managed to do.

I remain surprized at the stupidity of Mac and the support for LH, given his behavior and selfish nature that created the 100 milion dollar fine.

[tinchote]

I remain surprized at the stupidity of Mac and the support for LH, given his behavior and selfish nature that created the 100 milion dollar fine.

Man, saying that LH was the cause of McLaren being punished in the spying affair has to be the most biased assertion I have seen in almost 6 years in these forums :eek: :down:

[Hondo]

I don't know that Alonso's departure will hurt Hamilton to any great degree. One thing I think will hamper him is that last year he was an unknown rookie that took everyone by surprise, including McLaren. For 2008 the other teams will have had a year to learn his style, where he is strong and where he is weak and develop strategies to counter him, like the start of the Brazil race in 2007. There are those out there that will expect him to win the WDC regardless of good or bad the 2008 McLaren ends up being. That pressure alone may make him push too hard, resulting in costly errors.

[markabilly]

Man, saying that LH was the cause of McLaren being punished in the spying affair has to be the most biased assertion I have seen in almost 6 years in these forums


If LH had followed his orders and shared his toys per the past practice, instead of acting like the spoiled brat, behavior clearly repeated from Monaco, then FA would not have blown up.

And after having caused the stink, Louie "I've been in these situations before and I can cope with the pressure," Hamilton's popa goes whining to the FIA and then FA gets knocked back five grid positions late that night.

It is only to be expected that anyone would blow up at such behavior from his teamate and sure enough, FA blows up even more that his teamate has now cost him five grid spots when his teamie was the one that caused the problem in the first place

And all FA had to say was to make a very bland reference to his computer that throws RD into a tizzy, a simple fact demonstrating that RD was fully aware of what MC was doing...read RD's comments from the hearing about all FA had to do was point at his computer...... :roll: :rotflmao:

And make no mistake ----- if FA knew the stuff and MC was feeding him this stuff, under the official equality policy of Mac, MC was doing the same for LH who was always the sentimnetal fav of the Macca crew--and maybe explains the special baby treatment LH has recieved at Macca fear of even worse diclosures

Simple fact is the Macca is very fast and reliable and someone will take the seat--personally I hope it is Webber, because instead of fussing at RD and threatening to make public whatever is in the computer, Webber would be using golden boy's but to wipe the floor of the garage, if Webber left him any to be so used....

All that ham's performance demonstrates is how dominant the car is over the ability of the driver, and without FA or someone close to that caliber, Ham will not be so hot next year--although if he does get there, once a choker, always a choker :grenade:

No amount of Kool aid will change that :beer:

[TL]

If LH had followed his orders and shared his toys per the past practice, instead of acting like the spoiled brat, behavior clearly repeated from Monaco, then FA would not have blown up.

And after having caused the stink, Louie "I've been in these situations before and I can cope with the pressure," Hamilton's popa goes whining to the FIA and then FA gets knocked back five grid positions late that night.

It is only to be expected that anyone would blow up at such behavior from his teamate and sure enough, FA blows up even more that his teamate has now cost him five grid spots when his teamie was the one that caused the problem in the first place

And all FA had to say was to make a very bland reference to his computer that throws RD into a tizzy, a simple fact demonstrating that RD was fully aware of what MC was doing...read RD's comments from the hearing about all FA had to do was point at his computer...... :roll: :rotflmao:

And make no mistake ----- if FA knew the stuff and MC was feeding him this stuff, under the official equality policy of Mac, MC was doing the same for LH who was always the sentimnetal fav of the Macca crew--and maybe explains the special baby treatment LH has recieved at Macca fear of even worse diclosures

Simple fact is the Macca is very fast and reliable and someone will take the seat--personally I hope it is Webber, because instead of fussing at RD and threatening to make public whatever is in the computer, Webber would be using golden boy's but to wipe the floor of the garage, if Webber left him any to be so used....

All that ham's performance demonstrates is how dominant the car is over the ability of the driver, and without FA or someone close to that caliber, Ham will not be so hot next year--although if he does get there, once a choker, always a choker :grenade:

No amount of Kool aid will change that :beer:

Well markabilly..My thoughts are you drunk to many Kool aids when you posted this ! ;)


All that ham's performance demonstrates is how dominant the car is over the ability of the driver, and without FA or someone close to that caliber, Ham will not be so hot next year

Just check his career so far my friend...he showed more than enough he not need FA to go fast in whatever car..and don't worry..he will keep doin so in 2008....2009...2010 etc etc etc

[wmcot]

The biggest question will be the 2008 car. If it is an update of the 2007 car and is the same to set up, then there will be no problem for LH. If the car is less than ideal, we'll see how good LH is at setting up a problem car!

[markabilly]

Definition of Choker

or LH and RD cry over FA departure?

"that is okay, we will get you a new friend who will play with you on the computer...and don't worry we will never tell anyone about your slip it into nuetral..."

[W8&C]

...and don't worry we will never tell anyone about your slip it into nuetral..."It would be really interesting to know how your poor correspondence to reality does affect your everyday life. :D

[markabilly]

It would be really interesting to know how your poor correspondence to reality does affect your everyday life. :D
Thanks--that must be it. my mother told me I had poor handwriting, so that must explain why i keep writing letters to reality but reality never writes me back. I will try some emails and see if I can correspond better :s mokin: :D :s mokin:

[aryan]

Well, there was that other time a few seasons ago when they produced a dog of a car against all the odds.

Yes 2004. their car was dog slow, until they redesigned it and Kimi won that memorable race in Spa.

Speaking of which, now that there is an empty seat in McLaren, can Kimi please come back? :p We still love him and will even forget his year wearing the red suit if he comes back ;) :D

[markabilly]

Yes 2004. their car was dog slow, until they redesigned it and Kimi won that memorable race in Spa.

Speaking of which, now that there is an empty seat in McLaren, can Kimi please come back? :p We still love him and will even forget his year wearing the red suit if he comes back ;) :D


No as he openly confirmed in the post race interveiw, he has found a much more happier place to be than macca. He would never willingly return to macca at all...Hahahahahha

Besides he does not do stuff like this crying in the arms of RD at all...

[ioan]

Speaking of which, now that there is an empty seat in McLaren, can Kimi please come back? :p We still love him and will even forget his year wearing the red suit if he comes back ;) :D

I doubt he would quit Ferrari for McLaren, no person with self respect should go there to lick Hamy's boots. :p :

[Hondo]

I doubt he would quit Ferrari for McLaren, no person with self respect should go there to lick Hamy's boots. :p :


Fisi would, if Ralf didn't beat him to the boots.

[ArrowsFA1]

You say FA reputation has taken a dip, but I disagree. I think that LH reputation has been raised to a completly new height, but I still consider that FA is widely accepted as a main player in this game. By many he is not considered the best, but that's the same situation we had last year after he cliched his 2nd title. Yes the Brittish and German media have all taken a shot at Alonso as a person and as a driver, but he was 1 point short of the WDC under difficult circumstances. Not his best season, but rivals won't fear him any less.
OTA, one thing that hasn't taken a dip is Alonso's ability, but I don't think that has ever been in question. I think the problems at McLaren stemmed from Alonso assuming he would be the lead driver, in the same way that Piquet assumed he would be when he joined Williams. As WDCs both felt their status afforded them that position, and most others assumed they would naturally assume that position as well. However, both Mansell and Hamilton exceeded expectations and neither Williams nor McLaren chose to 'slow' them down to suit the other driver.

Now, whether anyone feels McLaren were right or wrong to 'manage' their drivers as they did, I feel it is Alonso's reaction to the situation he found himself in that has damaged his reputation. As it turned out McLaren weren't the right team for him so leaving is absolutely the right thing to do. Hopefully he'll now find the kind of team environment that worked so well for him at Renault, and if he does then he'll soon be a 3xWDC.

[passmeatissue]

I agree, well, 98%. He is still seen as one of the top 3, who are a distinct group ahead of whoever might be no 4. I think that's a slight step back from the end of last season, when he was seen by a lot of people as a clear no1, being more complete than Kimi (who was supposed to be a bit lazy and non-technical, but no-one is saying that now!).

I think Hammy exposed Fernando, even if over the year he wasn't lapping faster. Some of Alonso's strong head is in denial ("the mass damper doesn't make any difference") and that isn't as strong as it seeems when the chips really go down.

If the FA+Ross Brawn rumours come to anything, that would be really good for Fernando, I think, he would feel thoroughly looked after. Hope it comes true.

[Bradley]

It will be fun to hear Hammys excuses why he's doing so bad after every race next year.