Union Flag - Symbol of Hatred?

[Rollo]

I work in the upper class posh suburb of Mosman on Sydney's North Shore. In a lot of cases not even 7 figures will buy you a house around here (for the record I live in the bogan Western Suburbs and drive 44km to get to work).

Anyway, the local Chamber of Commerce meeting was/is being held across the street in the Mosman Town Hall and I've was denied entry until I removed my tie. Reason:
My tie had The Union Flag on it, which can be seen as a symbol of hatred.

I mean what the **** is going on here? Out the front of the council chamber there is a big chair with a bench in front, with a picture of HM Queen Elizabeth II flanked by the Union Flag and the Australian Flag which has as the canton yet another Union Flag.

How is it that I'm denied entry until I remove said offending item which is duplicated in the very room I've been denied entry to? Especially considering that the Oath of Allegience for Australian Citizenship is also done in the room where they also sware allegience to the Queen.

Has the world gone bonkers?

[Daniel]

LOL. Wtf? I'd make an official complaint about that as I can imaging you feel quite insulted.

[jso1985]

I fail to understand why the union flag can be a symbol of hatred in a country that uses it on their own flag! :s

[Jaws]

Rollo, I have lived in Sydney all of my life and all I can tell you is that I am totally flabergastered about what happened to you, I have never heard of that one before.

The only thing I can tell you is that Mosmanites do view themselves as not only upper class but more "special" than the rest of us. I wouldn't be surprised of they had their own constitution, do you need a special Visa to work their??

Probably most surprising about your experience is that I cannot think of anywhere in Australia (or the world for that matter) where there would be a higher per capita of Monarchists than Mosman.

You should have told them to go **** themselves.

Oh, and by the way, I do not find the Union Jack offensive, I see it as a reminder of our proud English heritage.

Have a great weekend :beer:

[SEATFreak]

What I fail to comprehend about politicians who deny someone something on the basis of something a person has on their body that is based on his/her nations flag, for instance, is that being in the position of democratic power they should not only be making such rules as the right to wear your nations flag somewhere about your person (Whether your from Australia, Britain/England or Tumbuktu), but they should be also be helping to enforce it by setting an example. And that could be wearing a tiepin for example themselves or allowing people like yourself Rollo into government buildings.

[BDunnell]

I don't think politicians should 'set an example' by wearing their national flag on themselves, because I don't believe that everyone should wear one. However, no-one should be penalised for wearing a flag in some way if they want to.

[Erki]

What's symbol is the (current) German flag? Pretty often I see it on someone's coat, on the upper arm. Never understood what's the point, though. :confused:

[Drew]

It's made all the more stanger by the fact that the Australian flag has the union jack on it too :\

[Donney]

We live in a world of idiots, that's the only explanation I can find about that. Spain is a very special country in what regards the use of the flag and I can't stand it.

[Mark]

Rollo, that is disgusting. I trust you will contact your local MP and press about this.

[BDunnell]

What's symbol is the (current) German flag? Pretty often I see it on someone's coat, on the upper arm. Never understood what's the point, though. :confused:

It seems to be popular on army-style jackets, for some reason.

[donKey jote]

We live in a world of idiots, that's the only explanation I can find about that. Spain is a very special country in what regards the use of the flag and I can't stand it.

Hey Donney don't tell me you didn't go out and celebrate Patriot Day like Mariano said all good Patriots should ? :p : :laugh:
:dozey:

[fandango]

While I have to admit if someone showed up to my house wearing the union jack I'd ask them not to wear it again here, or I might even not want them to come in, I see that as a prerogative of mine as a householder. I understand there are people who don't share my view, and I'm amazed that it would be seen as such in a country like Australia.

Do you think it would have been different if you had worn something with the Australian flag?

[Erki]

Next time make sure your coat is in the colours of the rest of the Aussie flag. Then say that the tie is only part of the whole package. ;)

[Curryhead]

maybe its the "house rules", I dunno, I know of places here where you would not be allowed in if you were sporting a national flag(even ours), or say a football team logo in some way. I would guess this is the case especially as you say its an affluent establishment.



Do you think it would have been different if you had worn something with the Australian flag?

I would also guess in this case the Aussie flag on a garment would have got the same response.........I do a lot of guessing me :D

[Daniel]

fair enough if it's house rules but that's no excuse to be rude about the flag. I don't think Rollo is so angry that he couldn't wear the tie, just that it was called a symbol of hatred.

[cobre]

it's to bad, but considering most people in the world today are looking for or inventing new ways to be offended; it's not surprizing.

[Camelopard]

What's symbol is the (current) German flag? Pretty often I see it on someone's coat, on the upper arm. Never understood what's the point, though. :confused:

This is all ex-military gear isn't it that you get from disposal shops?

[Erki]

This is all ex-military gear isn't it that you get from disposal shops?

Yes those jackets seem to be in kind of army-style. No idea where they've been used though.

[BDunnell]

I don't think they really are army surplus.

[Drew]

I'd really doubt they were surplus too. I assumed people bought the jacket and then added the flag later.

[BDunnell]

I'd really doubt they were surplus too. I assumed people bought the jacket and then added the flag later.

I think the jackets come with the German flag already on them. Why German, I have no idea.

[Drew]

I think the jackets come with the German flag already on them. Why German, I have no idea.

I normally see goths, skinheads or 'strange' people wearing them. I assume they think it's like putting the Swastika there, without actually offending anybody. It's like a symbol of power, nobody would put the Belgian flag on it (unless perhaps they were Belgian)

[Galveston dunes]

denied entry until I removed my tie. Reason:
My tie had The Union Flag on it, which can be seen as a symbol of hatred.

I mean what the **** is going on here? Out the front of the council chamber there is a big chair with a bench in front, with a picture of HM Queen Elizabeth II flanked by the Union Flag and the Australian Flag which has as the canton yet another Union Flag.

How is it that I'm denied entry until I remove said offending item which is duplicated in the very room I've been denied entry to? Especially considering that the Oath of Allegience for Australian Citizenship is also done in the room where they also sware allegience to the Queen.

Has the world gone bonkers?

I don't know you and don't want to make an enemy but I was wondering to myself-When you put on the tie did you already know you'd be denied entry and wore it as we Americans would say as a slap in the faces of hippocratic rule?Also why not just remove the tie and enter knowing they would still know you had it but couldn't wear It a strong believer in freedom of expression and of speech a right guaranteed to us Americans however our thoughts and our protests do cause us much disdain when we practice this right.
Believe it or not I'm on you're side I say wear the tie and protest out front of the hall doors in clear view of the symbol they wish not to be acknowledged.In the U.S. we say if you feel your right you fight till you take your last breath.
So Rollo wear your tie and wear it proudly.

[Malbec]

I think the jackets come with the German flag already on them. Why German, I have no idea.

They are ex-Bundeswehr shirts, jackets and the like and have the German flag stitched on them as standard. You can also get similar Dutch ones too. I suspect the Bundeswehr flogs them on at bargain basement prices once the conscripts leave.

Ought to declare at this point I bought a couple at a festival a few years ago, they're much more comfortable than British army equivalents and are great for doing messy stuff like working on the car or gardening in and are cheap as chips.

I think the Germans might get quite offended if people were buying them for some Nazi connection.....

[Erki]

I normally see goths, skinheads or 'strange' people wearing them. I assume they think it's like putting the Swastika there, without actually offending anybody. It's like a symbol of power, nobody would put the Belgian flag on it (unless perhaps they were Belgian)

That's the impression I have got as well. Years ago a classmate of mine was a kind of a skinhead and always wore one. However, it seems that "normal" people wear them too: some years ago I remember a talk show host wore one. About a week ago, I saw Urmo Aava featured on a newspaper cover, wearing one too.


I think the Germans might get quite offended if people were buying them for some Nazi connection.....

Seconded. :)

[Donney]

Hey Donney don't tell me you didn't go out and celebrate Patriot Day like Mariano said all good Patriots should ? :p : :laugh:
:dozey:


Yes but I won't tell you what intimate gesture I made with the flag ;)

To be honest I felt ashamed and insulted by his nationalistic harangue to the masses.

[Rollo]

I don't know you and don't want to make an enemy but I was wondering to myself-When you put on the tie did you already know you'd be denied entry and wore it as we Americans would say as a slap in the faces of hippocratic rule?

The tie happened to be on rotation. It's not like I deliberately set out to do anything. Given that Australia is a Commonwealth country and that the Queen is head of state, I found the whole thing really strange.

Fair dos if you walked around in South Africa or Hong Kong with it maybe, but Australia? If anything Australians hate the English more than the other way around, but even that only really is a tongue-in-cheek jyp over a question of sport (though arguably that is more than a matter of life and death itself).

[BDunnell]

They are ex-Bundeswehr shirts, jackets and the like and have the German flag stitched on them as standard. You can also get similar Dutch ones too. I suspect the Bundeswehr flogs them on at bargain basement prices once the conscripts leave.

Ought to declare at this point I bought a couple at a festival a few years ago, they're much more comfortable than British army equivalents and are great for doing messy stuff like working on the car or gardening in and are cheap as chips.

I think the Germans might get quite offended if people were buying them for some Nazi connection.....

That's interesting, because I assumed they had never been anywhere near the Bundeswehr.

[Malbec]

I hope we're talking about the same thing, ie the shirts on the top left in the following link.

http://www.surplusandoutdoors.com/ishop/877/shopscr358.html

[BDunnell]

Yes, in effect, though I was thinking more about the jackets with them on.

[rah]

There wasn't an Aboriginal ceremony or something going on was there? Thats all I can think of.

As for the Union Jack on the Aus flag, well its a stain that needs removing. But thats just my opinion.

[Azumanga Davo]

Right that does it, time to invade again... :D

In light of this new fact Rollo brings up, everyone in the UK should now start buying Foster's in bulk in protest to the action. It really pees off Aussies when you do that... ;)

[Daniel]

As for the Union Jack on the Aus flag, well its a stain that needs removing. But thats just my opinion.

I don't know where you come from but most Australians definitely don't share your opinion and it's our flag......

What's your country of origin or residence and can I pass judgement over it's flag? :mark:

[millencolin]

some members of the upper class here in Australia have their heads so far up each other's arses that they dont kow what the time of day is. It's not just in sydney where bull**** like this happens, but here in Brisbane too.

HOw on earth is the Union Flag offensive? its not, they just didnt like the look of you so they used it as an excuse to kick you out.

saying that the Union flag is offensive in this country is like saying the Melbourne Storm isn't the best rugby league team atm. How can that falg be of offence when most of us have british heritage. I'm half British (oh the shame i know)... and so are millions of other Australians.

[millencolin]

In light of this new fact Rollo brings up, everyone in the UK should now start buying Foster's in bulk in protest to the action. It really pees off Aussies when you do that... ;)

heck, buy as much fosters as you want. That means less crap beer for us. Enjoy your flavourless pee-water.. i'll go grab a coopers

[leopard]

I think even moon has the flag. :\

[rah]

I don't know where you come from but most Australians definitely don't share your opinion and it's our flag......

What's your country of origin or residence and can I pass judgement over it's flag? :mark:


As I said, it's my opinion. Some of us like it, some of us don't. I dont like the fact that it is there. Nor do I like Australia being a monarchy.

If you haven't guessed yet, I will give you a hint: I drive a tonner.

Sure pass judgement on my flag, I don't like it so I doubt I could be offended.

[Daniel]

As I said, it's my opinion. Some of us like it, some of us don't. I dont like the fact that it is there. Nor do I like Australia being a monarchy.

If you haven't guessed yet, I will give you a hint: I drive a tonner.

Sure pass judgement on my flag, I don't like it so I doubt I could be offended.
The Monarchy debate is the biggest non-issue in Australia since erm I don't know! I think it might actually be the biggest non-issue in the history of the country. People are happy with their history. Unless you're Aboriginal Australia wasn't invaded and so on and the people opressed. There's no reason for Australians to despise the Union Jack because a good deal of people are originally from the UK and the reason why people want to move there is because it's a good country to live in because those people make it a better place than a lot of other places out there.

What difference does having a British head of state make to us? Name the last time a British head of state who interfered with Australian affairs. If the Queen was constantly screwing around with Australia I could understand but she isn't and for the vast majority of people it's either a non-issue or something they don't want to change.

For the record I'm Australian born and have lived there for about 23 of my years (I'm 24) so it's my flag too.

As I said the indigenous population has right to dislike the UK but with the population being so low would it be right to have a minority decision given the fact that changing the flag or head of state won't improve their health and employment opportunities.

[rah]

The Monarchy debate is the biggest non-issue in Australia since erm I don't know! I think it might actually be the biggest non-issue in the history of the country. People are happy with their history. Unless you're Aboriginal Australia wasn't invaded and so on and the people opressed. There's no reason for Australians to despise the Union Jack because a good deal of people are originally from the UK and the reason why people want to move there is because it's a good country to live in because those people make it a better place than a lot of other places out there.

What difference does having a British head of state make to us? Name the last time a British head of state who interfered with Australian affairs. If the Queen was constantly screwing around with Australia I could understand but she isn't and for the vast majority of people it's either a non-issue or something they don't want to change.

For the record I'm Australian born and have lived there for about 23 of my years (I'm 24) so it's my flag too.

As I said the indigenous population has right to dislike the UK but with the population being so low would it be right to have a minority decision given the fact that changing the flag or head of state won't improve their health and employment opportunities.

Lol dude, there was no need to roll out the soap box. I don't like the flag. I don't like the monarchy. Notice the I.

The hole monarchy thing is another debate entirely.

[Daniel]

Yes but I was talking about change. Why change something that people don't really care about?

[rah]

Yes but I was talking about change. Why change something that people don't really care about?

But some people do care about it. I don't like having a head of state that is not democratically elected. I know she is just a figure head, but what is the point of her?

[Azumanga Davo]

I would like to think the Queen was thinking same about you... ;)

Non-issues? Then let's talk about the non-issue that is having the Union Jack in the Aussie flag. There's another one...

[rah]

I would like to think the Queen was thinking same about you... ;)

Non-issues? Then let's talk about the non-issue that is having the Union Jack in the Aussie flag. There's another one...

Nah mate, the difference between me and the queen is that I know I am useless. But I can't see her shouting me acommodation when I visit the UK.

[millencolin]

Nah mate, the difference between me and the queen is that I know I am useless. But I can't see her shouting me acommodation when I visit the UK.

I dont see the queen offering accomodation for people of England. So whats your point?

[Daniel]

But some people do care about it. I don't like having a head of state that is not democratically elected. I know she is just a figure head, but what is the point of her?
More to the point what is the point of you? Why does something have to have a point? If it aint broke don't fix it.

[rah]

I dont see the queen offering accomodation for people of England. So whats your point?

We have to put her up when she decides to visit her colonies.

[Daniel]

We have to put her up when she decides to visit her colonies.
Oh my god! Call John Howard and ask for your .25c back for what you paid for her to stay here.

[rah]

More to the point what is the point of you? Why does something have to have a point? If it aint broke don't fix it.

Lol haven't you worked that out yet? I am here to educate you about climate change!

I like to think we can move on from being a monarchy, I like a little progress. Does the queen represent Australia well?

[rah]

Oh my god! Call John Howard and ask for your .25c back for what you paid for her to stay here.

Yeah like we couldn't spend the few million that it costs us on something better?

[Daniel]

Yeah like we couldn't spend the few million that it costs us on something better?
Perhaps we could say sorry to the Aborigines. That'll sort their problem out.

[BDunnell]

More to the point what is the point of you? Why does something have to have a point? If it aint broke don't fix it.

I believe there is something fundamentally 'broke' with having an unelected head of state based on a hereditary principle. Both are deemed unacceptable for Parliamentary chambers, and in business it would be called nepotism, yet deemed OK by certain countries when it comes to heads of state. I think we can do better than that.

[Daniel]

I believe there is something fundamentally 'broke' with having an unelected head of state based on a hereditary principle. Both are deemed unacceptable for Parliamentary chambers, and in business it would be called nepotism, yet deemed OK by certain countries when it comes to heads of state. I think we can do better than that.
The Queen is basically a woman who sits in a palace most of the day and sometimes goes to see people, visits her loyal subjects and makes Christmas addresses. We're not talking the supreme overlord and ruler who decides how much you're going to be taxed. If this was 200 years ago I'd agree and say we needed an elected head but in effect we have that now. The Queen is symbolic and as a symbolic head I see nothing wrong with what she's doing/done.

[rah]

Perhaps we could say sorry to the Aborigines. That'll sort their problem out.

It's a start.

[Daniel]

It's a start.
It's a cop out. That's what it is. It's as meaningless and hollow as a 20 year old German apologising the the Jews for the Holocaust. Who cares about the past? Lets try and sort the present as well as the future.

[rah]

It's a cop out. That's what it is. It's as meaningless and hollow as a 20 year old German apologising the the Jews for the Holocaust. Who cares about the past? Lets try and sort the present as well as the future.

You obviously have no concept of the idea.

[BDunnell]

The Queen is basically a woman who sits in a palace most of the day and sometimes goes to see people, visits her loyal subjects and makes Christmas addresses. We're not talking the supreme overlord and ruler who decides how much you're going to be taxed. If this was 200 years ago I'd agree and say we needed an elected head but in effect we have that now. The Queen is symbolic and as a symbolic head I see nothing wrong with what she's doing/done.

I see what you're saying, but I have a fundamental objection to all forms of hereditary principle — indeed, anything that goes against a true meritocracy in any walk of life.

[BDunnell]

It's a cop out. That's what it is. It's as meaningless and hollow as a 20 year old German apologising the the Jews for the Holocaust. Who cares about the past? Lets try and sort the present as well as the future.

Is the Germany/Holocaust comparison exactly relevant, though? I agree with what you say in relation to Germany, but when applied to Australia and the Aborigines, I'm not so sure. After all, the Nazi period was 'just' 12 years of Germany's existence.

[Garry Walker]

Perhaps we could say sorry to the Aborigines.

Only if most of them apologize for the stuff they get up to now.

[Daniel]

Is the Germany/Holocaust comparison exactly relevant, though? I agree with what you say in relation to Germany, but when applied to Australia and the Aborigines, I'm not so sure. After all, the Nazi period was 'just' 12 years of Germany's existence.
The "stolen generation" wasn't a huge part of Australian history and that's a big part of what they want "us" to say sorry for. 99.9999% of Australians are just as responsible for that as 99.99999% of Germans are responsible for the Holocaust. To me there are more practical problems which need to be tackled rather than saying "sorry" for something that only a few people were doing (the church mainly :rolleyes: ).

[Daniel]

I see what you're saying, but I have a fundamental objection to all forms of hereditary principle — indeed, anything that goes against a true meritocracy in any walk of life.
Very true and I agree. But I see the ties in Australia to Britain as symbolic and important. If someone tried to pick a fight with Britain they know we'd come running and the opposite is also true. No need to lessen the ties even if they are only symbolic. Then there's the matter of the cost of the numerous changes that would need to be made and so on and for what benefit? :mark: If she was a horrible Queen who tortured people and had them beheaded then yeah let's disassociate ourselves from her personally but I just don't see it as being a problem. Soooooo many other things to sort out before we start on small and rather insignificant things like that.

[BDunnell]

The "stolen generation" wasn't a huge part of Australian history and that's a big part of what they want "us" to say sorry for. 99.9999% of Australians are just as responsible for that as 99.99999% of Germans are responsible for the Holocaust. To me there are more practical problems which need to be tackled rather than saying "sorry" for something that only a few people were doing (the church mainly :rolleyes: ).

All very fairly put.

[Daniel]

All very fairly put.
Cheers :)

At the end of the day sorry is just a word. A lot of aboriginal people live perfectly fine lives and that's great. But all too many of them are involved in sniffing petrol, sniffing glue, alcoholism, crime, domestic abuse, car theft. Then there's the fact that they have a far shorter life expectency than the average Australian, a higher rate of diabetes, higher rates of teenage pregnancy and the list goes on. Then there's the fact they used to put them all in ghetto areas. Back 10 years ago you just didn't go to parts of Perth.

Saying sorry is all fine and dandy and symbolic but it doesn't solve any problems. Plus I think it's pretty insulting to say sorry but not solve the problems that the Aboriginal community faces as a whole. Thing of George W Bush going to Iraq today, shaking a few people's hands and saying "Sorry it didn't go too well for y'all"

I think there are a few do-gooders who think it's going to do something for the aboriginal people as a whole (oooh! I'm going to wake up and NOT sniff petrol today because John Howard said "sorry" :mark: ) and there are some Aboriginal people and I think it's just a small minority who just want a pint of blood. But at the end of the day it's just words from people who really had nothing to do with it.

[rah]

The "stolen generation" wasn't a huge part of Australian history and that's a big part of what they want "us" to say sorry for. 99.9999% of Australians are just as responsible for that as 99.99999% of Germans are responsible for the Holocaust. To me there are more practical problems which need to be tackled rather than saying "sorry" for something that only a few people were doing (the church mainly :rolleyes: ).

Mate I think you need to do a little research into the subject.
At least 100,000 children were forcibly removed from their parents. It was not just the church, it was government legislation. Do you have any idea of the social impacts this causes?

Sorry is what the aboriginal peoples of Australia want, sorry is what they deserve.

[Daniel]

i said it was mainly the church. sorry means nothing when they still live in squalor.

[rah]

i said it was mainly the church. sorry means nothing when they still live in squalor.
The church would not have been able to do it if it wasn't for the government.
Sorry always means something when you hurt someone.

[Daniel]

The church would not have been able to do it if it wasn't for the government.
Sorry always means something when you hurt someone.
What if YOU didn't do it? Then sorry is just an empty word.

[BDunnell]

I agree that there is only so far collective apologies can go. This is despite the fact that I believe, for example, that Bush and Blair should apologise over Iraq, Japan should apologise for some of its actions in the Second World War, and there are a few other examples. However, there's no need to go around as a country with a sense of guilt for ever more.

[rah]

What if YOU didn't do it? Then sorry is just an empty word.

They are not asking you to say sorry. They are asking the Australian Govt to say sorry.

[Daniel]

They are not asking you to say sorry. They are asking the Australian Govt to say sorry.
The fact of the matter is most Australians don't feel we should say "sorry" and don't have a problem with the Queen or with the Union Flag being in the top corner. So why should the government do things which the people don't want it to do?

[BDunnell]

The fact of the matter is most Australians don't feel we should say "sorry"

To be fair, that doesn't necessarily make it right.

[Camelopard]

The fact of the matter is most Australians don't feel we should say "sorry" and don't have a problem with the Queen or with the Union Flag being in the top corner. So why should the government do things which the people don't want it to do?

That may be your opinion however I do not agree with that statement and it will be interesting to see what happens after we have a change of Government in 4 weeks time (unless little johnny can pull another Tampa incident out of the hat!).
The Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa don't seem to have hurt that country much and there has been a lot of people saying 'sorry' over there since 'one person' 'one vote' regardless of colour was introduced.
IMO the last referendum regarding Australia becoming a Republic was heavily loaded in favour of a 'no' vote so it will be interesting to see what happens next time.

[Daniel]

To be fair, that doesn't necessarily make it right.
But government should be to take care of the wishes of the masses. At the end of the day all they'd be doing is saying sorry for someone elses mistake.

[Daniel]

The Truth and Reconciliation Commissions in South Africa don't seem to have hurt that country much and there has been a lot of people saying 'sorry' over there since 'one person' 'one vote' was introduced.

It's just a cover for all of the discrimination that's going on now and the corruption that runs rife through the government. What's happening now is no better than what happened before. How's that for hypocrisy? Words are just words and you can reconcile all you like till you're all reconciled out but it's not going to make a lick of difference if nothing's actually done about the problem.

It's not exactly the best indication but the general opinion of the Australians on the forum in the past has been that becoming a republic will come at a cost and will bring no real benefits. Going back to one original point that Rah made. Whenever a dignatory comes to a country the home country usually pays. If the Queen visited Japan they'd pay for her accomodation. It's not the fact that she's our head of state or anything like that.

[rah]

The fact of the matter is most Australians don't feel we should say "sorry" and don't have a problem with the Queen or with the Union Flag being in the top corner. So why should the government do things which the people don't want it to do?

Most Australians? I didn't know there was a poll. Maybe these are you views, that doesn't make them necessarily that of the entire country.

The Govt always does thing that the majority does not want it to do. Sometimes it is misguided, sometimes it is the best thing to do.

[rah]

But government should be to take care of the wishes of the masses. At the end of the day all they'd be doing is saying sorry for someone elses mistake.

No, the Govt is there to do the best for the country. At least that what it is supposed to be there for.

[Daniel]

Most Australians? I didn't know there was a poll. Maybe these are you views, that doesn't make them necessarily that of the entire country.

The Govt always does thing that the majority does not want it to do. Sometimes it is misguided, sometimes it is the best thing to do.
OK lets try another point of view. Why haven't they said sorry?

[Camelopard]

It's just a cover for all of the discrimination that's going on now and the corruption that runs rife through the government. What's happening now is no better than what happened before. How's that for hypocrisy? Words are just words and you can reconcile all you like till you're all reconciled out but it's not going to make a lick of difference if nothing's actually done about the problem.

It's not exactly the best indication but the general opinion of the Australians on the forum in the past has been that becoming a republic will come at a cost and will bring no real benefits. Going back to one original point that Rah made. Whenever a dignatory comes to a country the home country usually pays. If the Queen visited Japan they'd pay for her accomodation. It's not the fact that she's our head of state or anything like that.

So now it's the Blacks and the Coloured who get all the benefits of the discrimination and corruption and not the Whites, so that's bad?

To me it doesn't matter who pays for the queen to visit Australia, we can still be a member of the Commonwealth without her being our nominal head of state. After all Mozambique (a former Portugese colony) is a member of the Commonwealth

[Camelopard]

OK lets try another point of view. Why haven't they said sorry?

because janette has told little johhny not to. Although there are still 4 weeks untill the election and little johnny has already made numerous backflips in the last 2 weeks so anything is possible.

[Daniel]

So now it's the Blacks and the Coloured who get all the benefits of the discrimination and corruption and not the Whites, so that's bad?

How would you feel if the same discrimination applied in Australia so that Aboriginal people had more rights than you and if you went up for a job and there was an aboriginal person going for the job as well you had 0% chance of getting the job. ALL discrimination based on things like sex, race, sexuality and so on is wrong. To go on about the horrors of Apartheid and then turn around and say that what is happening now is OK is just stupid in the extreme.

Incidently were you watching Lethal Weapon 2 when you posted this? :laugh: But but but but you're bleck!

[BDunnell]

No, the Govt is there to do the best for the country. At least that what it is supposed to be there for.

I agree with that. If every Government took heed of what 'the masses' supposedly believe, some awful policies would be implemented.

[Daniel]

I agree with that. If every Government took heed of what 'the masses' supposedly believe, some awful policies would be implemented.
Tax cuts for all! Wooooooooooooooooooo oh wait I don't have a job or a house :laugh:

As I said before I fail to see the point when there are other more important issues that saying sorry for something that's a fair way back in the past and isn't really a current problem in everyday life for people.

[BDunnell]

Tax cuts for all! Wooooooooooooooooooo oh wait I don't have a job or a house :laugh:

As I said before I fail to see the point when there are other more important issues that saying sorry for something that's a fair way back in the past and isn't really a current problem in everyday life for people.

Equally, on reflection, it's only a small word and saying it can allow a country to move on. Being too contrite for things way in the past is unwise, though — this is what I suppose I was referring to earlier.

[Daniel]

Equally, on reflection, it's only a small word and saying it can allow a country to move on. Being too contrite for things way in the past is unwise, though — this is what I suppose I was referring to earlier.
On the contrary that small word can be ammunition for people not to move on. I think every country needs to deal with the skeletons in their closet in ways which best work for them.

At the end of the day you choose to move on yourself. If you want something to leave a festering sore it will and if you want to get over it you can and will.

[BDunnell]

On the contrary that small word can be ammunition for people not to move on. I think every country needs to deal with the skeletons in their closet in ways which best work for them.

At the end of the day you choose to move on yourself. If you want something to leave a festering sore it will and if you want to get over it you can and will.

That, too, is all true. This is a very difficult topic and, with hindsight, I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. I would probably tend to side more with the 'moving on but never forgetting' view, though.