IVF's

[Knock-on]

Now, I haven't got a clue what these are but I can guess.

Let me see??? It's a way for people that have been irresponsible with Credit cards and Loans etc to write off most of the money they owe and run away from their responsibilities.

And who ends up paying for this? The people that struggle through their Mortgages, Finance Agreements, Credit card bills etc.

Just another example of people that want, want, want but can't be bothered to pay?

[EuroTroll]

What are you talking about?

[Drew]

I thought IVF was something to do with helping women who can't naturally get pregnant, get pregant :confused:

[Knock-on]

I have no idea but when I watch Sky, I see 3 types of adverts.

1. Have you suffered an accident and want to sue everyone.

2. Want a reasonably priced Loan of up to £100,000 at 12% interest

or

3. Have you had one of these silly loans and now realise you cannot get any further credit so want to go for insolvency.

I think an IVF is the 3rd one.

Thing is, if your so broke that you have to become insolvent, what are you doing watching Sky?

[Knock-on]

http://www.debtreducers.co.uk/ivas.asp

[Dave B]

You mean an IVA, fool :p

An insolvency agreement which you can either arrange free of charge through Citizens Advice, or entrust to a money-grabbing vulture company which will charge a whopping arrangement fee.

They're like ambulance-chasing law firms, only slightly worse.

[EuroTroll]

I must confess I still don't understand what this is about. :s

[oily oaf]

You mean an IVA, fool :p

An insolvency agreement which you can either arrange free of charge through Citizens Advice, or entrust to a money-grabbing vulture company which will charge a whopping arrangement fee.

They're like ambulance-chasing law firms, only slightly worse.

Don't be too harsh on him Dave. It's an easy mistake to make.
Only last Thursday I found myself potless after buying too many Christmas gifts and nipped down the loan sharks and asked for IVF.
How we laughed when the non plussed shyster gave me a test tube, a grumble mag and told me to go and knock one out in the bogs. :(

[Dave B]

I must confess I still don't understand what this is about. :s

You over-reach yourself on credit cards, expensive tellys and a new sofa; and instead of being made to pay it off you voluntarily declare yourself insolvent.

Your creditors accept an offer to repay a fraction of the original debt over (I think) six years, and write off the rest.

After six years, assuming you keep up the payments, you're free to repeat the whole process.

In theory it will make lenders choose their future customers more carefully, and reduce consumer debt.

In practice it's a licence for people to run up debts they never intend to pay back, and live well beyond their means.

[race aficionado]

Oily, I'm not giving you a "greeny" because I prefer it this way:

I just have to say that you are in rare form. Whatever it is that you are ingesting, injecting, regurgitating or just plain breathing in, keep on doing so.
It's a treat and a good laugh or giggle is the best gift you can spread around.
so there!
back to work then.

Ay caramba!
:s mokin:


p.s. Knockie, I didn't mean to highjack your thread but over here they call it "declaring bankrupcy" to avoid those debt payments but it is being made very difficult now.
but this bloke will sure do the best to help you out.

http://www.debtlawyer.com/

[EuroTroll]

You over-reach yourself on credit cards, expensive tellys and a new sofa; and instead of being made to pay it off you voluntarily declare yourself insolvent.

Your creditors accept an offer to repay a fraction of the original debt over (I think) six years, and write off the rest.

After six years, assuming you keep up the payments, you're free to repeat the whole process.

In theory it will make lenders choose their future customers more carefully, and reduce consumer debt.

In practice it's a licence for people to run up debts they never intend to pay back, and live well beyond their means.

A strange arrangement, to say the least. :s Is it government-sponsored?

[Dave B]

It's not government sponsored, no.

But part of the reason the law was brought in is that personal debt in the UK was (and is) spiralling. Theoretically it should be self-regulating now: the banks will be less willing to lend money to people who pose a higher risk of defaulting, and gradually the problem should go away. That's the theory.

However, like I said, in practice all it's done is foster an attitude that it's ok to run up huge debts becuase you don't have to pay them back in full. The huge rise of these voluntary insolvencies detailed in this article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6225691.stm) is clear demonstration of this.

Debt carries no stigma, and even the insolvency isn't something people are ashamed of.

Of course it's easy to blame the banks for being "irresponsible lenders" when of course the real fault lies with those who over-reach themselves. The people who'll blame the credit companies for their debt are often the same ones who blame McDonalds for their obesity, or blame the schools for their kids' failings.

There's no denying the lenders make it easy, lord knows I ran up enough debts in my 20's. I'm still paying off some of them now, but it's a matter of personal pride that I'll fulfil my obligations. I was tempted, certainly, but I'll readily accept that I was stupid rather than seek to blame a bank which was - heaven forbid - trying to run a profitable business.

[EuroTroll]

I'm truly sorry for continuing to ask questions that might sound stupid, but do you mean to tell me that there's a law in the UK that allows people to not pay their debts to the banks?! :s

[Dave B]

Believe me, it's not you that's stupid, it's the law.

To be fair, an IVA doesn't completely absolve you of debt. You still have to make a sensible offer to your creditors and stick to it.

But in reality, yes it's letting people off the hook and sending entirely the wrong message about fiscal responsibilty.

Have a look at this page (scroll down to "c"). That'll explain it far better than I ever could :)
http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/bankruptcy/alternativestobankruptcy.htm

Edit: this may explain even better:
http://nationaldebtline.co.uk/england_wales/factsheet.php?page=26_individual_voluntary_arrange ments

[Dazz9908]

LOans in test tubes Interesting way you britt's deal with money?! lol :p :

[viper_man]

So this is the same as declaring oneself bankrupt, right?

[viper_man]

**** it cant read. Cheers dave :up:

[Knock-on]

It's very easy to mix up ones' F's and A's you know. Don't take it out on the prematurely senile if I have a senior moment :p :

Dave, bless his cotton socks, has summed up the predicament as succinctly as normal leaving our overseas viewers as perplexed as they need to be surrounding this particular quirk of British legal folly.

You know, sometimes, I think it would be easier to jump on the bandwagon rather than continue to swim upstream all the time.

OK, I need a council house with 4 bedrooms, disability (mental) allowance, half a dozen sprogs for family allowance (which I will farm out to social services) and the smartest shell suit that benefit can buy.

Then we're going on a shopping spree. Yippeeeeeeee!!!

[Storm]

Dave, bless his cotton socks.

I just read that as bless his cotton - (male hens)! :laugh:

[BDunnell]

It's not government sponsored, no.

But part of the reason the law was brought in is that personal debt in the UK was (and is) spiralling. Theoretically it should be self-regulating now: the banks will be less willing to lend money to people who pose a higher risk of defaulting, and gradually the problem should go away. That's the theory.

However, like I said, in practice all it's done is foster an attitude that it's ok to run up huge debts becuase you don't have to pay them back in full. The huge rise of these voluntary insolvencies detailed in this article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6225691.stm) is clear demonstration of this.

Debt carries no stigma, and even the insolvency isn't something people are ashamed of.

Of course it's easy to blame the banks for being "irresponsible lenders" when of course the real fault lies with those who over-reach themselves. The people who'll blame the credit companies for their debt are often the same ones who blame McDonalds for their obesity, or blame the schools for their kids' failings.

There's no denying the lenders make it easy, lord knows I ran up enough debts in my 20's. I'm still paying off some of them now, but it's a matter of personal pride that I'll fulfil my obligations. I was tempted, certainly, but I'll readily accept that I was stupid rather than seek to blame a bank which was - heaven forbid - trying to run a profitable business.

Neither do I blame anyone else but myself for the fact that I'm still paying off debts for various reasons. They are to do with choices I've made. However, I do still think that the banks and other organisations can't be absolved of all blame, as it is undoubtedly easier for irresponsible people to get themselves into debt than it used to be. The opportunities for being able to run up debts are becoming greater than ever before, and I don't think we should be surprised that people decide to take advantage of them.

[BDunnell]

I think an IVF is the 3rd one.

Didn't IVF used to be the leader of the Conservative Party?

[Hazell B]

I do still think that the banks and other organisations can't be absolved of all blame, as it is undoubtedly easier for irresponsible people to get themselves into debt than it used to be. The opportunities for being able to run up debts are becoming greater than ever before, and I don't think we should be surprised that people decide to take advantage of them.

That sounds like a reasonable argument, but it isn't. The banks and loan companies, plus the sofa buy-now-pay-never folk, all have to point out the small print and so on. The fault for debt is completely with those taking out the loans if they don't bother (or care, often as not) about the future and paying.

Many loans are for good reason and ease of getting the loan makes good business sense to the bank, it encourages customers, so the balance between good sales and bad sales has to be found. I believe they've found it, but idiots are taking advantage.

Put it this way, some of us know eating lard will kill you. Some of us don't eat too much lard because of that knowledge. Some of us eat lard and stick our heads in the sand, safe in the knowledge that doctors know nothing. It's human nature. We all have an 'It won't happen to me' safety blanket and it just seems debt is a common one.

That's why I have no credit cards!

[airshifter]

I agree Hazell, the responsibility is that of the borrower.

On the other hand, a great number of financial institutions are just asking for trouble with their lending practices. When we bought our home, we were approved for considerably more than I could have paid at the time. Though I was smart enough to not buy beyond my means, these easy loans are often like waving a bottle in front of an alcoholic.


And really, if you are money smart, credit cards are a good thing. At worst they are short term interest free loans if you pay in full. At best you can often borrow interest free for longer periods of time, assuming you have good credit. Besides I never quite know when I might want to charge a new car rather than waiting to fill out loan paperwork. :laugh:

[BDunnell]

That sounds like a reasonable argument, but it isn't. The banks and loan companies, plus the sofa buy-now-pay-never folk, all have to point out the small print and so on. The fault for debt is completely with those taking out the loans if they don't bother (or care, often as not) about the future and paying.

Many loans are for good reason and ease of getting the loan makes good business sense to the bank, it encourages customers, so the balance between good sales and bad sales has to be found. I believe they've found it, but idiots are taking advantage.

Put it this way, some of us know eating lard will kill you. Some of us don't eat too much lard because of that knowledge. Some of us eat lard and stick our heads in the sand, safe in the knowledge that doctors know nothing. It's human nature. We all have an 'It won't happen to me' safety blanket and it just seems debt is a common one.

That's why I have no credit cards!

Those are all very good points, well put. However...

[BDunnell]

I agree Hazell, the responsibility is that of the borrower.

On the other hand, a great number of financial institutions are just asking for trouble with their lending practices. When we bought our home, we were approved for considerably more than I could have paid at the time. Though I was smart enough to not buy beyond my means, these easy loans are often like waving a bottle in front of an alcoholic.

...I do think there's much truth in that, too. As I said, there are certain reasons why this is a growing problem, and I don't think it's all down to people becoming more stupid.

[Dave B]

Possibly the biggest single factor is that lenders based their decisions on past history, not future ability to pay.

Let's say Mr X takes home £1000 per month after tax, and has quite happily been paying £700 per month on his mortgage, credit cards and Linda Barker sofa. He never misses a payment, and has no history of CCJs or similar. He'll have an excellent credit rating.

But would you lend him enough to buy a car? Even though you know he's only got £300/month after all his other committments, from which he needs to feed and clothe himself. Most banks would...

[EuroTroll]

But would you lend him enough to buy a car? Even though you know he's only got £300/month after all his other committments, from which he needs to feed and clothe himself. Most banks would...

I must say that I continue to be absolutely perplexed by what is written in this thread. It simply seems so improbable that in the UK - i.e. in the country that probably has the longest history of practising capitalism - people and businesses alike make decisions that are truly irrational, and there are laws in place to support that. :s

In my part of the world, you surely wouldn't get a loan from any bank unless you had proper collateral, and if you're in the debt, the bank will clean you up until there's nothing left to settle the debt. Which, I've always thought, is as it should be. :s

[Hazell B]

But would you lend him enough to buy a car? Even though you know he's only got £300/month after all his other committments, from which he needs to feed and clothe himself. Most banks would...


Technically now, they shouldn't. Don't know if they would (I have never had a loan) but they shouldn't with the self governing thingies they've started - sorry, no idea what they're called - that make sure each company can check other lending.
Plus, he'd get an extended mortgage if he got in trouble. That's something that's getting more common and I can see people in the seventies paying off debt in a few years time :s Frightening thought, and one we may all have to pay for in the long run.

I get that credit cards can be interest free loans each month, but they still scare the poo out of me! I just wouldn't dare risk not paying cash, which I guess makes me in the minority, but I'm happy that way. Keeps me working because if I don't, I starve :p :