With no TC, Who will excel and who will choke?

[aryan]

This was brought up by Raikk in the Hamilton Vs. Villeneuve thread, but I thought the topic was worthy of its own thread.

Which drivers will benefit from lack of TC, and which ones will falter, or choke?

Here is my list

Benefit:

Hamilton (just out of GP2)
Kovalainen (same reason)
Kimi
Button
Barichello
Truli


Falter:

Massa (aggressive driver)
Alonso (same reason)
Fisico
Ralf (if he is still here)
Sato
Webber


I have no idea about the others.

Note: these are just my feelings, I can't back it up with logic or links

PS: having said all of this, I am sure most drivers will adapt within a couple of races. Some may not survive though.

[wmcot]

Most of the drivers will adapt (if necessary) during winter testing. Having no TC does open the possibility of a human mistake here and there which could make next season more interesting!

[Simmo666]

Less TC will make the cars harder on their tyres (I think?), so Hamilton, who we've seen is quite hard on his tyres, may have a bit of a problem as well.

Button is always described as a smooth driver and so should have little problem with the task I'd think. Whether he has any sort of car capable of showing that is another question entirely.

I've no idea about the driving styles of others. Haven't been paying enough attention to the little yellow TC square during the onboard shots.

[Stuartf12007]

it will make no differnec at all to the drivers.

hopefully Fisi will be replace by piquet jnr

[Kevincal]

No difference AT ALL?! That makes... NO SENSE at all...

[Hawkmoon]

I think the pecking order, quality of car aside, will be pretty much the same as this year. All the drivers will have winter testing to adapt to no TC. I think it will be much easier for them to adapt to no TC than it was for some of them to adapt from Michelin to Bridgestone.

The behaviour of the cars probably wont be any different. They will still turn in, break and corner like the '07 cars. It's only the corner exit that will change and I'm pretty sure that these guys will be able to control the throttle just fine.

I think an interesting question is how Bridgestone will react to no TC. How often will they use the softer end of their tyre set next year considering tyre wear will probably be greater than in the TC years?

[Tazio]

I think the teams that have the cars that set up best for track conditions
will probably have drivers manage without TC a little more effectively.
A vague answer! It will be a subject of some interest when we see cars/drivers at race pace.

How do you associate "choking" with "adjusting", "coping", or lack of "rudimentary talent".
Does this term mean something else down under? Nothing personal in any way.
To choke is to screw up in an important or critical situation, usually associated with decisive events.
Which under less serious circumstances would have a history of being adequate or satisfactory in said task?
“Hamilton choked." He failed to produce when it really mattered
.

[Roamy]

well you really can't even guess but I would say the immediate advantage will go to Bourdas - driving fast cars with no TC.

[leopard]

No difference AT ALL?! That makes... NO SENSE at all...

I wouldn't say it that extreme, It may have No significant difference

[raikk]

here it is again..


I think that will benefit Lewis more... It will take other drivers some more time to get used to the old proper way for driving grandpirx cars while Hamilton is still pretty fresh from GP2 and certainly showed his worth there..
(Drivers who will excel without TC)
Hamilton
Raikkonen
Alonso
Kubica
Kovy
Rosberg


(Drivers who will not excel without TC)
Fisichella
Massa (car control is self taught!)
Ralf Schumi
Rubens Barichello
Button
Trulli
Sato

(Dark horses)
Heifeld
Sutil
Bourdais (no TC in champcar)
DC
Vettle

[Hawkmoon]

Massa (car control is self taught!)

What to do you mean by this one? Surely Massa has a similar level of innate car control that all drivers good enough to race, let alone compete at the pointy end, must have?

I can't see that Massa taught himself to drive an F1 car. He has honed his natural ability but his driving in the early days was all about reflexes leading to his "be quick or crash" early days with Sauber.

[wmcot]

well you really can't even guess but I would say the immediate advantage will go to Bourdas - driving fast cars with no TC.

There might be an advantage there, but F1 cars and F1 tracks are a lot different than Champ Cars on city street circuits or airports. It will be interesting to watch!

[raikk]

What to do you mean by this one? Surely Massa has a similar level of innate car control that all drivers good enough to race, let alone compete at the pointy end, must have?

I can't see that Massa taught himself to drive an F1 car. He has honed his natural ability but his driving in the early days was all about reflexes leading to his "be quick or crash" early days with Sauber.

Lets just say it will take him longer then the others to get used to this... Schumi has taken Massa under his wing and has made him a better driver.. My point is that Massa needs some one to teach him.. he is less independant then say Raikkonen.. I would say that Massa has less raw talent and ability of the big 4 maybe even 5.. (Hamilton,Raikkonen,Alonso anyways).. I'm not saying he's a bad driver because he adapted to Ferrari well but he relies on others a bit more and I belive it will take him a bit longer then the other 3 to get used to this feature and master perfectly on the edge..

[samuratt]

well you really can't even guess but I would say the immediate advantage will go to Bourdas - driving fast cars with no TC.

But champcars aerodynamics can't be compared to those of a F1. So maybe what he gains by bannig TC he losses it by having to learn how to set up a car with a lot more possibilities than a champcar.

Probably they will all adapt to driving whitout TC, the problem is that driver errors won't be covered by a goog traction control system so we will see more mistakes from drivers who are really pushing his car. Also in wet races we will be able to see who is the class of the field, cause manny drivers have stated that to keep this cars on track when raining and whitout TC is going to be some sort of miracle.

Bring on 2008! :)

[555-04Q2]

Smooth drivers like Jenson Button should have an advantage without TC.

The likes of Alonso, Kimi and Hamilton like to throw their cars around may find it a bit more difficult.

[Hawkmoon]

Lets just say it will take him longer then the others to get used to this... Schumi has taken Massa under his wing and has made him a better driver.. My point is that Massa needs some one to teach him.. he is less independant then say Raikkonen.. I would say that Massa has less raw talent and ability of the big 4 maybe even 5.. (Hamilton,Raikkonen,Alonso anyways).. I'm not saying he's a bad driver because he adapted to Ferrari well but he relies on others a bit more and I belive it will take him a bit longer then the other 3 to get used to this feature and master perfectly on the edge..

Fair enough but I think you might be surprised by him next season.

[Mark]

Remember how much RB struggled with Honda because it was designed for Buttons style which uses minimal TC

[ShiftingGears]

Advantage
Button is a smooth driver, so I think he'll excel. Fast in the wet conditions, where more time is gained and lost through throttle control.
Raikkonen - one of the best drivers in F1. It took him a while to adapt his driving style to Ferrari's superior TC system. (I dunno how reliable Windsors word is...) Again, fast in the wet.
Hamilton - out of GP2, and one of the best drivers in F1. Fast in the wet.
Kovaleinen - out of GP2, and a very quick driver.
Rosberg - see above.
Alonso - Double world champion, and innovated his own less conventional style which eliminated graining, and also worked very well with the Renaults. Also jumping into a new team and being immediately fast.
Webber - Very fast and talented, very fast in the rain. He knows what it takes to be fast in any car, and he's got the talent to do so.
Disadvantage
Barrichello - was known to have difficulty adapting his driving style to the Honda, with lesser TC.
Massa - not as naturally talented as Kimi. Relies a lot more on being taught rather than instinctively knowing what he needs to do to be quick, so I think he's going to lose out slightly. In any case, he's bloody quick, and many underestimated him coming into this year.
Fisichella - #2 driver.
Undecided
Kubica - aggressive style that didn't work as well with this years Bridgestones. TC won't help his cause, I suspect.
Bourdais - 4xChamp in 700+ HP series without traction control or depth of talent pool. Has made some divebomb passes resulting in sustained car damage for his own and/or others cars.
Vettel - frequently outpaced by Liuzzi in the dry, but is exceptional in wet weather.
Toyota and Super Aguri drivers, Heidfeld and Sutil- I don't really know much about their driving styles to have an opinion about them.
Coulthard - #2 driver and pretty much always has been, really. I don't think he really compares to Webber at all.

[ioan]

Lets just say it will take him longer then the others to get used to this... Schumi has taken Massa under his wing and has made him a better driver.. My point is that Massa needs some one to teach him.. he is less independant then say Raikkonen.. I would say that Massa has less raw talent and ability of the big 4 maybe even 5.. (Hamilton,Raikkonen,Alonso anyways)

This is all bullsh!t wrapped in silver paper.

[ShiftingGears]

This is all bullsh!t wrapped in silver paper.

Really? Massa has said quite often that he's learnt a lot from Schumacher and that he's benefitted from his knowledge greatly. Kimi on the other hand has been quoted as saying that "you can't really learn from other drivers advice - you're either fast or you're not" and at the end of the day it was Kimi that had to adjust to all the aspects of a new team and it was him that came away with the WDC.

[ioan]

Really? Massa has said quite often that he's learnt a lot from Schumacher and that he's benefitted from his knowledge greatly. Kimi on the other hand has been quoted as saying that "you can't really learn from other drivers advice - you're either fast or you're not" and at the end of the day it was Kimi that had to adjust to all the aspects of a new team and it was him that came away with the WDC.

It does not mean that he will take longer than the others to adapt, which is the central point of raikk's post.

We could just come and say the same about any driver on the grid, as there is no way to prove it.

[ShiftingGears]

It does not mean that he will take longer than the others to adapt, which is the central point of raikk's post.

We could just come and say the same about any driver on the grid, as there is no way to prove it.

It might not necessarily mean that, but I think the point he's trying to get at (I believe) is that Massa doesn't instinctively know what it takes to be fastest. And this might cause him to struggle if he's put in an unfamiliar situation, such as in a car without TC.

[Hawkmoon]

I don't think Hamilton will do well unless he seriously adjusts his driving style. He was harder on his rear tyres than Alonso by a considerable margin this year. Silverstone, Spa, Shanghai and Interlagos being example from the latter part of the season where Hamilton lost out because he was too hard on the rubber.

The fact that he was just out of GP2 didn't stop him from wearing his tyres down to the belt in Shanghai and that was with a TC enabled car. Alonso went further on the same tyres with no problems.

If Hamilton continues to eat his rears he will struggle in 2008.

[wedge]

Pah! I say this before and I'll say it again but the cream of the crop will always rise to the top. The best is the best no matter what their driving style is.

The majority found it laughable that Kimi and Alonso were complaining about adjusting to the tyres this year and then as the season went on we saw their true abilities shine.


I don't think Hamilton will do well unless he seriously adjusts his driving style. He was harder on his rear tyres than Alonso by a considerable margin this year. Silverstone, Spa, Shanghai and Interlagos being example from the latter part of the season where Hamilton lost out because he was too hard on the rubber.

The fact that he was just out of GP2 didn't stop him from wearing his tyres down to the belt in Shanghai and that was with a TC enabled car. Alonso went further on the same tyres with no problems.

If Hamilton continues to eat his rears he will struggle in 2008.

Peter Windsor reckons the opposite and I too disagree to an extent. I think you will have to factor in what McLaren can come up with next year. If it's similar to this year's, which was hard on tyres, then he's in a bit of trouble because Lewis is a hard racer and will take some life out of the tyres.

I think McLaren and Lewis will come up with a good package - McLaren have generally built cars that don't abuse the rears and Lewis knows his racecraft needs fine-tuning.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I think that JButton is the obvious choice for who will excel. He won't have to adjust his driving style much, when you have the on board camera on Jenson, you very rarely here the traction control cutting in.

[wedge]

I think that JButton is the obvious choice for who will excel. He won't have to adjust his driving style much, when you have the on board camera on Jenson, you very rarely here the traction control cutting in.

....and they said the same thing in 2005 with the 1-tyre rule.....

[BDunnell]

Pah! I say this before and I'll say it again but the cream of the crop will always rise to the top. The best is the best no matter what their driving style is.

The majority found it laughable that Kimi and Alonso were complaining about adjusting to the tyres this year and then as the season went on we saw their true abilities shine.


I agree. I don't think it will shake up the pack too much. It will be interesting, though.

[ArrowsFA1]

Nick Heidfeld:

"I think there will be more mistakes, more overtaking, and more sliding. It is more fun."
Nico Rosberg:

"It's going to be exciting. I tried it recently and it was quite shocking actually. In the difficulty sense it is not ideal - and it is going to be a big challenge for everybody. There'll be more mistakes, more inconsistencies. To this question I said no a few months ago, but since I tried it I will say yes now."

"You look at a track like Hungary, with no traction control, you are going to see mistakes. You are going to have drivers who are going to overdrive in the beginning and have no tyres left towards the end."

"The thing is with these cars that you don't feel the limit properly at the rear. And once it goes, it's so snappy that it's very hard to hold it. There's no way you're going to be drifting in anything, that's not possible. The cars are so edgy and twitchy. In the high-speed stuff there's no traction control because you can't get wheelspin. It's only in the slow-speed stuff, especially second and first gear corners."

"I was going through the chicane (in the test) and I hit the throttle because I forgot that traction control was off. I was in first gear, and it spun me round quicker than I was able to think. I was facing the other way and I was like, 'Whoa!' In the wet it would be incredibly difficult."

"I think it will suit some drivers better than others, especially us young guys who have only driven traction control from one or two years back. I think we are going to have fewer problems than maybe the older people among us who have been driving 10 years with it."

[pentti]

I still have my worry that teams are not going to accept a common ecu. But if they indeed have no tc next year, we fans surely will benefit. I remember when tc was not allowed many cars spinning. I do not agree that all drivers can adopt. Those who have great antipacition in theyr body would do fine.

[passmeatissue]

Thinking of Kimi drifting his car through turn 4 inQ3 and those instant one-time corrections we've seen from Lewis then I think those two will be winners and they will stand out even more from the rest. Alonso I would put as a potential loser because he doesn't like such a back-endy car.

[jens]

To me it has always seemed that the importance given to the loss of TC is overexaggerated. The main change would probably be that we would see more spins, more overtaking (as a driver ahead fails to exit the corner perfectly more often) and maybe more blistered tyres as Hawkmoon mentioned that tyre wear would probably be greater. It's not like someone becomes half a second a lap more competitive driver than other. They are all very good drivers in F1 and I seriously can't select anyone, who would be in serious disadvantage. It would be an unjustified harm and underrating already before the start of the season. So let's try not to downplay anyone's chances - just let's wait and see. :)

[jso1985]

sorry to dissapoint but I think the same fast drivers will remain as the same fast drivers...

they have the whole winter to adapt, so I think all will adapt and the talented ones will remain as the faster ones
so don't expect any surprises next year

[leopard]

there is also possibility that driver will need 1/2 season to adapt it ...

[jso1985]

Yamamoto and other not so talented probably but in that case who cares? they're going to be slow no mather what

[leopard]

Of course, Yamamoto will need 9/10 season to get adapted

[TMorel]

I'm with those that think that the same drivers will be at the top.
What I'm hoping for is more dicing and changing positions between these same people.

[Mark]

Those drivers who have only been in F1 since 2001 like Alonso are the most likely to suffer.

[trumperZ06]

well you really can't even guess but I would say the immediate advantage will go to Bourdas - driving fast cars with no TC.

:D Yep... given a half-way competitive car,

;) SeaBass may surprise a lot of people.

[Ranger]

....and they said the same thing in 2005 with the 1-tyre rule.....

The points tally between him and his team-mate that year suggests that they may have been right! :p :

Generally I don't think anyone will excel - it'll mostly stay the same IMO.

[raikk]

This is all bullsh!t wrapped in silver paper.

:laugh: :laugh:
There is no exact way to prove it.. your right because I certainly do not have a crystal ball infront of me but I go from previous experiance where Massa struggled through the first half and was decent-good in the 2nd half..now Raikkonen struggled a bit in his first half but was a little more consistant (take out engine failures ect.) but what counts is that he pretty much made the best of a bad sitiation by winning a flurry of races in the last stretch and therefore clinching the WDC...If Massa did not have Micheal he would not be as good as he is now.. Raikkonen on the other hand.. well he just doesnt give a sh!t about Micheal and does everything independantly...





It might not necessarily mean that, but I think the point he's trying to get at (I believe) is that Massa doesn't instinctively know what it takes to be fastest. And this might cause him to struggle if he's put in an unfamiliar situation, such as in a car without TC.
you have learned well :s mokin:

[Malbec]

To me it has always seemed that the importance given to the loss of TC is overexaggerated.

I agree.

When TC was reintroduced a few years back there was a lot of talk about some drivers losing out and others gaining. In the end the same talented drivers were still quicker than the same less talented drivers. We didn't see much difference at all.

[jso1985]

to Dylan H and Jens :up:

sorry Button fan's... ain't gonna happen that easy

[Tazio]

to Dylan H and Jens :up:

sorry Button fan's... ain't gonna happen that easy
.

[leopard]

Those drivers who have only been in F1 since 2001 like Alonso are the most likely to suffer.
yeah, too many to mention ;)

[Robinho]

i'm kinda hoping that Honda have been running without TC secretly all year, just to prepare, and come next year they'll be competitive - however, i have my doubts ;)

[mirek01]

I think everybody need to learn how to drive a car without TC because this cars in the past were different so it is only a question which driver adapts better.

[keysersoze]

I don't see why Fisichella would suffer, as his smoothness and feel for the car is generally considered his forte.

[Boudica]

I know Kimi came into F1 when there was still no traction control, it might be the same with Alonso.

Alonso is know to be the driver who is the most reliant on technical driver aids, if this is really true is yet another question.

The most people are expecting Kimi and Lewis to shine, because they drive with oversteer. But the tyres are still another issue. And button for all his smoothness and classic style.

Alonso and Massa drives with understeer, which according to many people will make it more difficult for them to adapt to the TC ban.

Here is what Kimi and Massa had to say:

Raikkonen also said he was looking forward to the ban on traction control, which takes effect next season, and expressed his belief that the ban will improve the racing.

"When I came to Formula One, we didn't have traction control," he commented. "There are so many things coming up. I think it'll be good fun and more challenging, too. And taking the traction control away will give us more opportunities to overtake."

His teammate Felipe Massa, however, was more reserved, as he admitted he has not driver a Formula One car without traction control yet.

"I haven't yet driven cars without traction control, but it's just a matter of habit," the Brazilian stated.

"We'll see if we need to change our driving style or we need to change the car."



Kimi sounds like he is exsited by it, Massa is a bit unsure.

In the end they are the best drivers in the world, and shouldn't be discounted some will properly just take longer then others . If it improves overtaking as Kimi stated I'am all for it!

[Valve Bounce]

I don't think any of the current crop of F1 drivers will suffer when Trax is outlawed; after all they all came through the Karting ranks as well as lower formulae which do not have Trax.

It would be a different story if the transmissions had to revert to manual gear changes. That would require a much higher degree of driver control both in downshifting plus braking and upshifting and accelerating.

[aryan]

I know Kimi came into F1 when there was still no traction control, it might be the same with Alonso.


CORRECTION: When Kimi came into F1, there was no LEGAL TC.

Can anyone tell me if Sauber received the Special Version ECU along with the Ferrari engines, or was it the normal version of the ECU? ;-)

[aryan]

It would be a different story if the transmissions had to revert to manual gear changes. That would require a much higher degree of driver control both in downshifting plus braking and upshifting and accelerating.

It's not gonna happen though, simply because the world has moved to the other direction. I've driven a 2002 SLK with a manual cluthless paddle shift 'box (a la the DSG) and I hated it, but I'm seeing that all the 'driver' cars nowadays (like the Lancer EVO X, or the new M3 beemer) are also going with the paddle shift seamless 'box options.

[ArrowsFA1]

After Heidfeld and Rosberg's comments here's what Lewis Hamilton thinks of racing without TC:

"I think it will be cool. I'm looking forward to trying it out. I've not been in the car with traction control off, apart from the warm-up laps before the race. I think it will be interesting. It's a good challenge, and I love challenges. I enjoyed driving the GP2 car without TC, and the F3 car. It's a new technique, it's a different technique, to drive without it, so it will be interesting."

"I've not driven the car without TC, I don't know if it's going to make it more exciting, if it's going to make it harder for us, easier, whether it will be harder on the tyres. I can only assume it's going to be tougher for all of us. Perhaps more mistakes, but only little mistakes, like going wide. We are the best drivers in the world so we should be able to deal with it."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63847