Still one thing missing

[Dzeidzei]

And thats an apology by Ron Dennis. Unless he wants to be remembered as a cheat and the damage he has caused the whole sport of F1, he needs to apologise to the fans, to his sponsors and to the other teams.

And this is a valid request regardless how early on he knew about the Ferrari material McL clearly had access to. If youre running and managing things, you must know. If you dont, you must take responsilibity for not knowing.

He is very lucky to even run a team next year. Now its time to be a little humble.

[ioan]

And thats an apology by Ron Dennis. Unless he wants to be remembered as a cheat and the damage he has caused the whole sport of F1, he needs to apologise to the fans, to his sponsors and to the other teams.

And this is a valid request regardless how early on he knew about the Ferrari material McL clearly had access to. If youre running and managing things, you must know. If you dont, you must take responsilibity for not knowing.

He is very lucky to even run a team next year. Now its time to be a little humble.

Humble, that's a word that is not to be find in Ronspeak.
It was always more or less obvious that Ron is a 2 faced hypocrite, now it's finally clear and everyone can see it.

[TL]

If youre running and managing things, you must know. If you dont, you must take responsilibity for not knowing.

He is very lucky to even run a team next year. Now its time to be a little humble.

doesn't that also counts for ferrari ? they also never noticed a high ranked enmployee of there's was giving out there data or ?

[ioan]

doesn't that also counts for ferrari ?

No.

[DonJippo]

they also never noticed a high ranked enmployee of there's was giving out there data or ?

So why we are having this so called Stepneygate then in the first place if no-one noticed it?

[Hondo]

I thought the only team caught cheating this year was Ferrari and their moveable floor, designed to do one thing during a static test, but to act altogether differently during actual use, thus being ruled illegal by the FIA for future use. Thats not only cheating, but also expressly designing a component for cheating.

Didn't Toyota get thrown out of rally for a couple of years for the same basic idea? An air intake that did one thing in static tests, but expanded (moved) while in actual use?

[seppefan]

And thats an apology by Ron Dennis. Unless he wants to be remembered as a cheat and the damage he has caused the whole sport of F1, he needs to apologise to the fans, to his sponsors and to the other teams.

And this is a valid request regardless how early on he knew about the Ferrari material McL clearly had access to. If youre running and managing things, you must know. If you dont, you must take responsilibity for not knowing.

He is very lucky to even run a team next year. Now its time to be a little humble.

Ron should apologies but he needs to sack Jonathan Neale and maybe a few others as well to clear the decks. Alonso should apologies as should Pedro de la Rosa as they knew about the info way before Ron.

[DonJippo]

I thought the only team caught cheating this year was Ferrari and their moveable floor, designed to do one thing during a static test, but to act altogether differently during actual use, thus being ruled illegal by the FIA for future use. Thats not only cheating, but also expressly designing a component for cheating.

How can you say that a techical solution that passed a test with set parameters is cheating?

[Hondo]

How can you say that a techical solution that passed a test with set parameters is cheating?

The FIA ruled it illegal. Therefore, a breech of regulations. Because to ioan. any breech of regulations is cheating, Ferrari cheated.

Unless you would care to define "cheating".

The Ferrari movable floor was ruled illegal because it was specifically designed to pass the tests, but operate in an illegal manner during actual use. Now that, in anybody's book, has got to be cheating. If it wasn't, the FIA wouldn't have ruled it illegal.

Cheating.

[Hondo]

The word "cheating" doesn't appear in the FIA sporting regulations.

[DonJippo]

The FIA ruled it illegal.

Did they? All I remember FIA doing was to change the test parameters?

[ioan]

The FIA ruled it illegal.

No they didn't.
Please do provide proof to your claim.

[Daniel]

So why we are having this so called Stepneygate then in the first place if no-one noticed it?
It's not really worth arguing with him. He simply doesn't understand the concept of industrial espionage.

[TL]

So why we are having this so called Stepneygate then in the first place if no-one noticed it?

don't think it was someone inside ferrari who found out first..but think a copyshop was involved no ? also one of these stories that made my eyebrows rise !

[TL]

It's not really worth arguing with him. He simply doesn't understand the concept of industrial espionage.

maybe I don't..But I'm willing to learn...as I asked a question in one of the other threads..and nobody yet replied..so will pose it again...is a photographer who takes pics of a team in the pits..than provide these pics to other teams also doin industrial spionage ?

[Daniel]

maybe I don't..But I'm willing to learn...as I asked a question in one of the other threads..and nobody yet replied..so will pose it again...is a photographer who takes pics of a team in the pits..than provide these pics to other teams also doin industrial spionage ?
Teams have the right to restrict media access to their pit areas. At Rally Australia in 2005 I practically got pushed over by a Ford mechanic while trying to take a picture of the underside of their new Focus WRC suspension. All service during the rally on the car was done in a tent with sides on it. Teams are allowed to stop photographers from taking photos in their garages. On the track and in the pits they can't really do much but to actually get any proper data from it they would need closeup pictures from particular angles to get any useful "spy" data and that's hard when the car is on the track or in the pits.

[BDunnell]

Teams have the right to restrict media access to their pit areas. At Rally Australia in 2005 I practically got pushed over by a Ford mechanic while trying to take a picture of the underside of their new Focus WRC suspension. All service during the rally on the car was done in a tent with sides on it. Teams are allowed to stop photographers from taking photos in their garages. On the track and in the pits they can't really do much but to actually get any proper data from it they would need closeup pictures from particular angles to get any useful "spy" data and that's hard when the car is on the track or in the pits.

Many, if not all, current F1 teams pay photographers to supply them with good quality pictures of the opposition's cars. This is clearly of some value to them.

[Daniel]

Many, if not all, current F1 teams pay photographers to supply them with good quality pictures of the opposition's cars. This is clearly of some value to them.
Yes that's true but you can't photograph someone's weight distribution, the lap when they're going to pit or what gas is being used in their tyres now can you? ;) I think it's a given that things like aero parts will be copied and that's the nature of the beast given the fact that we can all see the cars when they're racing. But using illegally obtained documents is clearly not allowed.

[TL]

Yes that's true but you can't photograph someone's weight distribution, the lap when they're going to pit or what gas is being used in their tyres now can you? ;) I think it's a given that things like aero parts will be copied and that's the nature of the beast given the fact that we can all see the cars when they're racing. But using illegally obtained documents is clearly not allowed.

but is it yes or no a way of industrial spionage ?..even if the material obtained by the photographs isn't that valuable as you say ?

[BDunnell]

Yes that's true but you can't photograph someone's weight distribution, the lap when they're going to pit or what gas is being used in their tyres now can you? ;) I think it's a given that things like aero parts will be copied and that's the nature of the beast given the fact that we can all see the cars when they're racing. But using illegally obtained documents is clearly not allowed.

Well, on TV Martin Brundle et al seem to be able to work out pretty accurately the lap on which a car is going to pit, so it's not as if this is rocket science.

[Daniel]

It's something that can't be stopped so it's legal. If they could stop teams seeing parts on someone elses car and changing them then they would but they can't now can they? Using another teams data though is highly illegal.

[Daniel]

Well, on TV Martin Brundle et al seem to be able to work out pretty accurately the lap on which a car is going to pit, so it's not as if this is rocket science.
Yes but they work it out during the race. McLaren knew it before the start of the race :mark:

[BDunnell]

Yes but they work it out during the race. McLaren knew it before the start of the race :mark:

The TV commentators are also able to have a pretty good go at guessing before the race, too, based on qualifying times. It is of little advantage to any team to have this information in advance. But we've been here before, to no agreement as to the severity of these 'crimes' about which some people claim to be so outraged.

[Daniel]

The TV commentators are also able to have a pretty good go at guessing before the race, too, based on qualifying times. It is of little advantage to any team to have this information in advance. But we've been here before, to no agreement as to the severity of these 'crimes' about which some people claim to be so outraged.
The fact remains that it was only part of the problem. To make inference as to when someone will pit is fine (and probably quite accurate too!) but to have prior and definite knowledge is just not on is it? :)

[BDunnell]

The fact remains that it was only part of the problem. To make inference as to when someone will pit is fine (and probably quite accurate too!) but to have prior and definite knowledge is just not on is it? :)

No, but neither is it as serious as is made out, like so many other incidents in F1 in recent years that have been termed 'cheating'.

[Daniel]

No, but neither is it as serious as is made out, like so many other incidents in F1 in recent years that have been termed 'cheating'.
Well the way people discuss Formula 1 on this forum is silly at best. With regards to it's use in the WMSC meeting which resulted in Mclaren losing points and being fined it was merely used by the FIA as a means of proving that McLaren had (illegally obtained) knowledge of what Ferrari was doing.

[TL]

It's something that can't be stopped so it's legal. If they could stop teams seeing parts on someone elses car and changing them then they would but they can't now can they? Using another teams data though is highly illegal.

can you ever be 100% sure whoever you hire for your team will be trustable ? Can you ever be sure the new engineer you give a contract will not give out confidential information ? That's also something that can't be stopped....

and I also keep repeating myself...It was never 100% proven data from one team was used by an other....

[Daniel]

It was proven. Just because you say it wasn't doesn't mean that it wasn't.

You can't make sure that someone will be 100% honest but you can sue their ass off and make sure the company who used the information pays too.

[wmcot]

can you ever be 100% sure whoever you hire for your team will be trustable ? Can you ever be sure the new engineer you give a contract will not give out confidential information ? That's also something that can't be stopped....

It's called taking the guilty party to court on criminal charges! That's where Stepney is headed.

[wmcot]

The FIA ruled it illegal. Therefore, a breech of regulations.

It was not in breach of regulations at the Australian GP. Once the testing procedure was changed, changing the regulations, the floor was modified to comply with the "new" regulations.

Just like in the real world, rules (or laws) change all the time. You can't base what happened in the past on a new law and call it illegal.

Not that difficult a concept to grasp!

[wmcot]

doesn't that also counts for ferrari ? they also never noticed a high ranked enmployee of there's was giving out there data or ?

Espionage is difficult to catch unless you want to do strip searches and body cavity searches of each employee as they leave each evening (in addition to monitoring each employee's activities each and every day.)

Once Stepney was found out, criminal charges were filed. You can't do much more than that.

[wmcot]

maybe I don't..But I'm willing to learn...as I asked a question in one of the other threads..and nobody yet replied..so will pose it again...is a photographer who takes pics of a team in the pits..than provide these pics to other teams also doin industrial spionage ?

Not really, because the car is in view of the public. If the photographer sneaks into a part of the garage without authorization, that would be espionage.

I guess if you want to eliminate this, all races could be run in secret with no fans, photographers, film crews, TV crews, guests, etc. and the FIA could announce the results of the race! That would kind of ruin the sport, don't you think?

[aryan]

can you ever be 100% sure whoever you hire for your team will be trustable ? Can you ever be sure the new engineer you give a contract will not give out confidential information ? That's also something that can't be stopped....



Yes you can, it's called a NDA.

Standard practice in any industry in any position.

Most of the questions asked in this thread, can be answered by anyone who has taken Law 101. There are strcit laws covering intellectual property, and industrial espionage.

[TL]

Not really, because the car is in view of the public. If the photographer sneaks into a part of the garage without authorization, that would be espionage.

I guess if you want to eliminate this, all races could be run in secret with no fans, photographers, film crews, TV crews, guests, etc. and the FIA could announce the results of the race! That would kind of ruin the sport, don't you think?

well with the photographic material available these days it's no longer needed to try to get into the garages to make good pics...

I'm not trying to eliminate this.......i'm just trying to figure out where this so called industrial espionage in the formule 1 starts/stops ! fe..is there a charter between the teams..where is said that when someone from one team moves over to another other the next season..he/she isn't allowed to share any of the information obtained from the old team with the new one ?

[wmcot]

well with the photographic material available these days it's no longer needed to try to get into the garages to make good pics...

I'm not trying to eliminate this.......i'm just trying to figure out where this so called industrial espionage in the formule 1 starts/stops ! fe..is there a charter between the teams..where is said that when someone from one team moves over to another other the next season..he/she isn't allowed to share any of the information obtained from the old team with the new one ?

As far as the photographs go, you are right to a certain point. However, there are things that can't be photographed at all (such as weight distributions, pitstop schedules, the gasses in the tires, etc. as mentioned earlier.) There may be some parts of a car that are only visible in the garage when the bodywork is off. These areas are where espionage are concerned.

As far as employees in a team, it is standard practice in all major companies to have each employee sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA in the above post.) This is a legal contract between the employee and employer that states that you will not take company information or property. They are not yours to "give" away or to take for your own use. They are for company use only. If you "give" them away or take them for your own use or use them in the future when you have left the company, you have signed a contract that makes you legally liable and you may be civilly or criminally prosecuted. I woulc assume that F1 teams all use these contracts with their employees. I had to sign one with my employer and I'm sure most forum members have done the same.

I hope this helps answer your questions.

[passmeatissue]

Here is Clause 3.15 of the FIA Technical Regulations (2006 and through 2007, it was not altered after Australia) (my caps)...
------------------
3.15 Aerodynamic influence:
With the exception of the cover described in Article 6.5.2 (when used in the pit lane) and the ducts described in Article 11.4, any specific part of the car influencing its aerodynamic performance:

- Must comply with the rules relating to bodywork.
- Must be RIGIDLY secured to the entirely sprung part of the car (rigidly secured means not having ANY degree of freedom).
- Must remain IMMOBILE in relation to the SPRUNG part of the car.
---------------------
So even though the Ferrari floor complied with the *tests* in Clause 3.17, it obviously did NOT comply with the *rules* in 3.15. Moreover, it was deliberately engineered to deceive the scrutineers by passing the test then being mobile in the race - a situation that got Honda a 2-race ban and Toyota in the WRC two complete seasons' ban.
Also the rear wheel trims do not seem to comply and the front wheel trims definitely do not comply - Ferrari have publicly explained the aero benefits of the 27-degree angle of the vent.

So however we each see McLaren, unless the English language has ceased to be meaningful in F1 Ferrari have broken the rules, have not been punished and in fact have been allowed to do so all year by the FIA.

[A.F.F.]

I really don't follow the F1, nor that I care but funny thing is that 90% of F1 following Finns thought the biggeest cheats were Ferrari. That is before Kimi went in of course.

[wmcot]

Here is Clause 3.15 of the FIA Technical Regulations (2006 and through 2007, it was not altered after Australia) (my caps)...
------------------
3.15 Aerodynamic influence:
With the exception of the cover described in Article 6.5.2 (when used in the pit lane) and the ducts described in Article 11.4, any specific part of the car influencing its aerodynamic performance:

- Must comply with the rules relating to bodywork.
- Must be RIGIDLY secured to the entirely sprung part of the car (rigidly secured means not having ANY degree of freedom).
- Must remain IMMOBILE in relation to the SPRUNG part of the car.
---------------------
So even though the Ferrari floor complied with the *tests* in Clause 3.17, it obviously did NOT comply with the *rules* in 3.15. Moreover, it was deliberately engineered to deceive the scrutineers by passing the test then being mobile in the race - a situation that got Honda a 2-race ban and Toyota in the WRC two complete seasons' ban.
Also the rear wheel trims do not seem to comply and the front wheel trims definitely do not comply - Ferrari have publicly explained the aero benefits of the 27-degree angle of the vent.

So however we each see McLaren, unless the English language has ceased to be meaningful in F1 Ferrari have broken the rules, have not been punished and in fact have been allowed to do so all year by the FIA.

Compliance with the rules is DEFINED by the test. If an elephant sits down on the nose of a car, I can guarantee you that some part of that car will flex beyond allowable limits!

(Maybe I should have said dead horse instead of elephant, since that is obviously what some of you are trying to beat to death!) :)

[janneppi]

I really don't follow the F1, nor that I care but funny thing is that 90% of F1 following Finns thought the biggeest cheats were Ferrari. That is before Kimi went in of course.
Now it's probably down to 87% :p :

is there a charter between the teams..where is said that when someone from one team moves over to another other the next season..he/she isn't allowed to share any of the information obtained from the old team with the new one ?

I can answer this one.

All the contracts I signed with teams included a Non-Disclosure Agreement. When I worked free-lance, any work I did for a team was also covered by a Non-Disclosure Agreement.

I was strictly prohibited from taking any designs and using them elsewhere...even if they were, in effect, designs I had come up with.

If I had, then I would have been liable to criminal prosecution and most likely incarceration, not to mention financial ruin.

I could take the knowledge I had in my head with me when I left, but I could not use any documents or information on results.

The best I could ever say to a new employee was that something might be worth looking into. I could not say anymore quite simply because it would have destroyed my professional credibility and employers trust in me....after all, if I had been willing to do that for my new employer he would think that I would do it for my next employer.

Of course, you cannot lose knowledge and so every team knows that there will be knowledge to acquire, but that is very, very different to turning up on the first day with a dossier full of another teams designs.

[OmarF1]

Ron's a millionaire and runs one of the most important and winning teams of one of the most ego-filled sports on earth, do you really think he can be humble? :D

[Tazio]

Ron's a millionaire with a hot wife and runs one of the most important and winning teams of one of the most ego-filled sports on earth, do you really think he can be humble? :D She's not THAT hot!

[OmarF1]

She's not THAT hot!

Well she's a fine looking lady for her age, she certainly ain't in the Carmen Electra-kind-of-babe-league, but she's ok, at least if you consider that Ron's a veeeeeeery ugly mofo.

[Tazio]

Well she's a fine looking lady for her age, she certainly ain't in the Carmen Electra-kind-of-babe-league, but she's ok, at least if you consider that Ron's a veeeeeeery ugly mofo.I'd do 'er

[N. Jones]

And thats an apology by Ron Dennis. Unless he wants to be remembered as a cheat and the damage he has caused the whole sport of F1, he needs to apologise to the fans, to his sponsors and to the other teams.

And this is a valid request regardless how early on he knew about the Ferrari material McL clearly had access to. If youre running and managing things, you must know. If you dont, you must take responsilibity for not knowing.

He is very lucky to even run a team next year. Now its time to be a little humble.

Can't we give this whole thing a break? :rolleyes:

[OmarF1]

I'd do 'er

Yes sir, me too.

[Dzeidzei]

Can't we give this whole thing a break? :rolleyes:

Yes, you´re absolutely right.

I sincerely apologise to Ron Dennis and all you McLaren fans. Ron has done nothing wrong, McL was not cheating and the FIA wrongfully took away their points in WCC. In fact, we can safely say that Ferrari is the only evil thing in F1 and this whole saga was some sort of sick plot from Maranello.

Ron Dennis is the symbol of true sportmanship, a trustworthy team leader and a true gentleman, who deserves our humblest admiration.

[ioan]

Yes, you´re absolutely right.

I sincerely apologise to Ron Dennis and all you McLaren fans. Ron has done nothing wrong, McL was not cheating and the FIA wrongfully took away their points in WCC. In fact, we can safely say that Ferrari is the only evil thing in F1 and this whole saga was some sort of sick plot from Maranello.

Ron Dennis is the symbol of true sportmanship, a trustworthy team leader and a true gentleman, who deserves our humblest admiration.

I don't subscribe to this! :D