Inevitable comparisons begin: Massa vs Kimi

[janneppi]

As the last race is over, time to tediously analytical with stats, stats and some more stats.
*only sessions where fair comparison can be made included.

Who was faster of the two more often in practices:
Kimi 27 times
Massa 19 times

Who was faster of the two more often in qualifications, all comparable sessions:
Kimi 22 times
Massa 24 times
Faster in Q3's
Kimi 6 (of those times was lighter than massa in Q3 3 times
Massa 7 (of those times was lighter than kimi in Q3 5 times

Who was ahead in in the finish line more often: (DQ's not included)
Kimi 6(+ China and Brazil which depending how naive you are) times
Massa 4 times

*math might be off sligthly, not much though. ;)

[ioan]

As the last race is over, time to tediously analytical with stats, stats and some more stats.
*only sessions where fair comparison can be made included.

Who was faster of the two more often in practices:
Kimi 27 times
Massa 19 times

Who was faster of the two more often in qualifications, all comparable sessions:
Kimi 22 times
Massa 24 times
Faster in Q3's
Kimi 6 (of those times was lighter than massa in Q3 3 times
Massa 7 (of those times was lighter than kimi in Q3 5 times

Who was ahead in in the finish line more often: (DQ's not included)
Kimi 6(+ China and Brazil which depending how naive you are) times
Massa 4 times

*math might be off sligthly, not much though. ;)

You mean Japan, not China!

Let's continue:

Who's got more mechanical problems and team cock-ups?
I'll let you do the maths, now that you're already good at it. :p :

[Storm]

I have to say Massa sueprised me by being so close to Kimi's speed (especially in qualifying). I put it down to his knowledge of the team, car and hunger for beating the new team-mate (who most of us thought would beat him).

I think Kimi will be stronger next year now that he has no monkeys on his back (no Todt!!, I mean the world title) but also Massa will be quick which he showed this year.

All MS fans shifted their allegiance to Massa at the start of the year, but Raikkonen is the world champ... :p :

[Eki]

I think Kimi will be stronger next year now that he has no monkeys on his back (no Todt!!, I mean the world title) but also Massa will be quick which he showed this year.

I think Massa was quick already last year. He occasionaly even beat Schumi.

[Tazio]

All MS fans shifted their allegiance to Massa at the start of the year, but Raikkonen is the world champ... :p :
How did you ascertain that line of crap?

[janneppi]

Just ask ioan or 555-04Q2. ;)

[Tazio]

Just ask ioan or 555-04Q2. ;)
They don't constitute all because, you forgot Gary Walker!
No I'm serious! Storm, back that Bull $#!t up!

[janneppi]

Why the angry tone Tazio?
Lighten up.

[Hondo]

Keep your stats, poles, fast laps, etc.

Until I see Massa storm through the field from the back of the pack like I have seen Kimi do so many times, I think Kimi is the better driver. Massa, like Hamilton, has proven he can lead from the pole and win races but both seem to struggle a bit more when they need to move to the front.

Kimi is a good champion and has earned the title.

[Tazio]

Why the angry tone Tazio?
Lighten up.
OK boss
I just think that because Kimi was a rival at Mac that some members think that us rational aficionados would automatically consider Kimi a less desirable commodity.
Rational Ferrari fans that appreciate real talent either dig Kimi or are antagonistic, insecure neurotics.
I would prefer not to be included in that group.

[leopard]

We have now another incomparable comparison ;)

[janneppi]

OK boss
I just think that because Kimi was a rival at Mac that some members think that us rational aficionados would automatically consider Kimi a less desirable commodity.
Rational Ferrari fans that appreciate real talent either dig Kimi or are antagonistic, insecure neurotics.
I would prefer not to be included in that group.
There is no such thing as a rational fan, a rational supporter might exist. :p :
Mind you, being a Ferrari fan and being a fan of MS isn't exactly the same thing.

[jens]

I have started wondering whether Massa will ever become WDC. I'm afraid he's the new Rubens in the making. Also if we are to believe the assumptions that he might struggle a little bit without TC...

Will Massa ever get a better opportunity to win the title than in 2007?

[Tomi]

Will Massa ever get a better opportunity to win the title than in 2007?

In the F1 world you get nothing for free, you got to earn your place in the team by driving, if he can do that he will get his chance, but one thing is for sure it will not be a easy task.

[Dzeidzei]

As the last race is over, time to tediously analytical with stats, stats and some more stats.
*only sessions where fair comparison can be made included.

Who was faster of the two more often in practices:
Kimi 27 times
Massa 19 times

Who was faster of the two more often in qualifications, all comparable sessions:
Kimi 22 times
Massa 24 times
Faster in Q3's
Kimi 6 (of those times was lighter than massa in Q3 3 times
Massa 7 (of those times was lighter than kimi in Q3 5 times

Who was ahead in in the finish line more often: (DQ's not included)
Kimi 6(+ China and Brazil which depending how naive you are) times
Massa 4 times

*math might be off sligthly, not much though. ;)

How about the same stats starting from the French gp?

[leopard]

Ferrari wouldn't take any risk signing a driver multiple seasons forwards if not satisfied with the performance of driver in the reserve seat...

[Valve Bounce]

As the last race is over, time to tediously analytical with stats, stats and some more stats.
*only sessions where fair comparison can be made included.

Who was faster of the two more often in practices:
Kimi 27 times
Massa 19 times

Who was faster of the two more often in qualifications, all comparable sessions:
Kimi 22 times
Massa 24 times
Faster in Q3's
Kimi 6 (of those times was lighter than massa in Q3 3 times
Massa 7 (of those times was lighter than kimi in Q3 5 times

Who was ahead in in the finish line more often: (DQ's not included)
Kimi 6(+ China and Brazil which depending how naive you are) times
Massa 4 times

*math might be off sligthly, not much though. ;)

A famous philosopher once said:"Statistics are like lamp posts for the drunks to lean on"

[555-04Q2]

Just ask ioan or 555-04Q2. ;)

Hey! You need to pay royalty fees to use my name in your post ;)

Seriously though, I always liked Massa as he is a humble guy and he is a long serving test driver and now driver for Ferrari, whom I support. With the retirment of MS, Massa was the obvious choice for me. Kimi will become my first choice if still at Ferrari when Massa leaves ( belive it or not :p : )
My only issue with Kimi is his attitude towards track side marshals which is less than exemplary and his status as F1's quickest driver, which i feel belongs to Alonso. But that is just my personal opinion, which of course, means nothing to Kimi fans ;)

[ioan]

Hey! You need to pay royalty fees to use my name in your post ;)

Seriously though, I always liked Massa as he is a humble guy and he is a long serving test driver and now driver for Ferrari, whom I support. With the retirment of MS, Massa was the obvious choice for me. Kimi will become my first choice if still at Ferrari when Massa leaves ( belive it or not :p : )

The same for me. ;)

[seppefan]

All MS fans shifted their allegiance to Massa at the start of the year, but Raikkonen is the world champ... :p :


Good point

[wedge]

Keep your stats, poles, fast laps, etc.

Until I see Massa storm through the field from the back of the pack like I have seen Kimi do so many times, I think Kimi is the better driver. Massa, like Hamilton, has proven he can lead from the pole and win races but both seem to struggle a bit more when they need to move to the front.

Kimi is a good champion and has earned the title.

IMHO, you cannot lump Massa and Lewis in the same bracket. Lewis has bigger balls than Massa because of the incredible overtaking manoeuvres when slicing through the field.

Nurburgring - Fisi squeezed Lewis on the outside with half the car on the dusty grass-crete on the back straight.

Interlagos - passed Barrichello into the first corner when was Lewis was about 80m from Barrichello and made the move stick. A lesser driver would've collided with the Brazillian.

Monza - similar to Interlagos, except from the onboard camera we saw incredible skills underbraking when he passed Kimi into the first corner. Again, a lesser driver would've probably crashed into Kimi.

And you have Malaysia where Lewis made Massa look stupid.

Other than that, I agree with your thinking. I've noticed that Kimi can keep up with Massa eg. Turkey and Indy, but can Massa keep up with Kimi? China, Spa, Malaysia?

Ultimately Kimi has been quick when it counts such as the end of stints to make it all count and pit pass Massa. His win at Spa was important else it would've been game over.

I think the other difference between Massa and Kimi has been in qualy. There were moments such as in Monaco and Turkey where mistakes proved costly for Kimi's race let alone pole.

[ioan]

IMHO, you cannot lump Massa and Lewis in the same bracket. Lewis has bigger balls than Massa because of the incredible overtaking manoeuvres when slicing through the field.

Sure, sure!

What about Silverstone this year?

Felipe went from last to 5th!
OZ 16th to 6th!
Fuji last to 3rd in the wet (before serving a pit stop, his, 4th with very few laps to go!).

You see it's easy to talk without taking the facts into account!

When did Hamilton slice through the field like that?
He would have been WDC if he made it to 5th as Felipe did in Silverstone.

I don't know about their balls but you're argument didn't have any.

[aryan]

Hey! You need to pay royalty fees to use my name in your post

Seriously though, I always liked Massa as he is a humble guy and he is a long serving test driver and now driver for Ferrari, whom I support. With the retirment of MS, Massa was the obvious choice for me. Kimi will become my first choice if still at Ferrari when Massa leaves ( belive it or not )
My only issue with Kimi is his attitude towards track side marshals which is less than exemplary and his status as F1's quickest driver, which i feel belongs to Alonso. But that is just my personal opinion, which of course, means nothing to Kimi fans


And I thought Kimi would get a bit more credit from you Massa/MS fans after winning the world championship. Nope. I was mistaken. :p

Meanwhile, most of us McLaren fans, still like Kimi and have a soft spot somewhere in our heart for him, and are actually quite happy that he won the title in the end cause we thought he deserved it long ago. :)

Wait a second....

Now that I think about it, here I am, a McLaren fan, defending a Ferrari driver, and here you are, a die-hard tifosi, telling me that Alonso is quicker than Kimi (which I will not believe for a second!!). What a strange world it has become :D

[Garry Walker]

Interlagos - passed Barrichello into the first corner when was Lewis was about 80m from Barrichello and made the move stick. A lesser driver would've collided with the Brazillian.


80 metres from RB? LOL. Crazy talk.
as for the rest of your post - you have been reading too much of Peter Windsors retarded ramblings.

Kimi vs Massa - In the end this year, Massa was better in qualifyings and Kimi a bit better in races. Next year without TC will be interesting.

[wedge]

Sure, sure!

What about Silverstone this year?

Felipe went from last to 5th!
OZ 16th to 6th!
Fuji last to 3rd in the wet (before serving a pit stop, his, 4th with very few laps to go!).

You see it's easy to talk without taking the facts into account!

When did Hamilton slice through the field like that?
He would have been WDC if he made it to 5th as Felipe did in Silverstone.

I don't know about their balls but you're argument didn't have any.

Silverstone - most of his passing was down the Hangar straight like a hot knife through butter. Any good examples of gutsy overtaking manoeuvres? Seem to stall when he came up to Kubica. Did Massa run out of ideas or do we use the dirty air excuse considering a Silverstone was a Ferrari track, as Kimi demonstrated.

Malaysia - stuck behind a BMW for the rest of the race after Lewis made him look stupid, poor attempt at pit passing. Does Massa have the required speed at crucial moments in a more consistant basis?

Spain - no complaints over his brilliant start against Alonso. A good example of when Alonso should shut his mouth this year.

Nurburgring - if Massa had balls then I think he should've done a better job at holding off Alonso. Alonso has held up Schumi in inferior car - Imola 2005 and Turkey 2006.

Fuji - I have no complaints because I'm an advocate of asphalt run-offs and there will be people who hate it because they believe drivers should be punished more for mistakes and going off the circuit.


as for the rest of your post - you have been reading too much of Peter Windsors retarded ramblings.

Kimi vs Massa - In the end this year, Massa was better in qualifyings and Kimi a bit better in races. Next year without TC will be interesting.

Errrrr....... I originally made the point Massa was better than Kimi in qualy and Kimi was better race driver:


I've noticed that Kimi can keep up with Massa eg. Turkey and Indy, but can Massa keep up with Kimi? China, Spa, Malaysia?

Ultimately Kimi has been quick when it counts such as the end of stints to make it all count and pit pass Massa. His win at Spa was important else it would've been game over.

I think the other difference between Massa and Kimi has been in qualy. There were moments such as in Monaco and Turkey where mistakes proved costly for Kimi's race let alone pole.

[Roamy]

i think perhaps massa can be faster over a couple of laps but over a entire race with condidtions changing right now i will put my money on kimi

[Tazio]

Having Kimi as Aa benchmark, Massa even being close say alot about the kid.
Not many people thought he would even be close once Kimi got comfy.
They make a good one-two punch!

[leopard]

I get the feeling in car racing like F1 those better in qualifying are supposed to do better in the real race, as it resembles multiplication of qualifying. Massa has dominantly qualified better, as such Hamilton over Alonso.

Why do we have Massa at the lower points towards Kimi, so do Hamilton only collecting the same points with Alonso, must need to involve non technical reason that is sometimes not delicious.

[wmcot]

All MS fans shifted their allegiance to Massa at the start of the year, but Raikkonen is the world champ... :p :

Don't group me in that bunch! I enjoyed both drivers having good races this year. It was great to see Kimi finally win the WDC, but it was also great to see how much Massa has matured and become a good racer.

[ten-tenths]

Don't group me in that bunch! I enjoyed both drivers having good races this year. It was great to see Kimi finally win the WDC, but it was also great to see how much Massa has matured and become a good racer.

it's funny but it felt like massa was the quicker driver between the two this year but somehow raikkonen found himself the number one driver going down the stretch. i can't wait to see who comes out on top next year!!! my money is on raikkonen!!!

[ArrowsFA1]

While looking at the comparison between Kimi and Felipe, it's worth comparing the two McLaren drivers to see how each pairing have done with the same material. And no I don't mean they were all driving Ferraris ;)

The most important benchmark for any driver is his team-mate. It's as close as possible we get to being able to make comparisons, and this year neither team has employed a "#1" which makes it a little easier.

Over the course of the season Kimi, Fernando and Lewis have been almost inseperable. Massa, however, has been one step behind. That's where he is as a driver. Time will tell if he is capable of making the required step up and mount a genuine challenge, but he's already a 6-year veteran of F1. The clock is ticking.

[555-04Q2]

And I thought Kimi would get a bit more credit from you Massa/MS fans after winning the world championship. Nope. I was mistaken. :p

Meanwhile, most of us McLaren fans, still like Kimi and have a soft spot somewhere in our heart for him, and are actually quite happy that he won the title in the end cause we thought he deserved it long ago. :)

Wait a second....

Now that I think about it, here I am, a McLaren fan, defending a Ferrari driver, and here you are, a die-hard tifosi, telling me that Alonso is quicker than Kimi (which I will not believe for a second!!). What a strange world it has become :D

Actually, Kimi's shares went up in my books big time when he won the WDC but it doesn't mean I want to start humping his leg on Sundays ;) After many seasons in top teams it was about bloody time!

My opinion is that Alonso is still the quickest driver in F1, but that could be changing thanks to a certain Lewis Hamilton who has thrown the proverbial cat amongst the pigeons with a great rookie season. 2008 should be another cracker for the Alonso/Hamilton/Kimi/Massa show!!!!!

[leopard]

The closing race was the fresh reminder on the Massa's job. Starting the race with clever move, enlarge the gap more than 3 second before taking it all endeavor for the honor of the team.