Fuel issue- No penalty for BMW/Williams- McLaren to appeal

[F1boat]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63547

[Somebody]

A final-race technicality might alter who wins the championship?

Well, that would sum up this season in a nutshell, wouldn't it?

[SillyF1]

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

I know that really want him to win it so badly that they are ready to bend and break the rules, but seriously if they do this F1 will loose total credibility !

They just cant accept Hamilton lost ! What a coincidence that they want to disqualify the 2 cars that finished in front of Hamilton, the 2 places that stopped Hamilton from being champion ! I cant believe this is possibly true !

[jso1985]

:s

[ioan]

For some reason this circus won't stop.

[fandango]

This must be a joke.

[BDunnell]

This will surely prove to be a fuss over nothing, but if it is true that those samples throw up genuine illegalities that merit disqualification, which is possible, what should the FIA do?

[tinchote]

I hope they don't change anything, because it wouldn't be pretty.

Now, every time I see the post-race celebrations and interviews, I think to myself: are they that sure that nothing will go wrong with the technical verifications? :s

[fatgav]

If the fuel is illeagal, the cars get disqualified, simple! It should not matter whether it affects the championship, if it happened at the first race of the season there would be no question, so why should there be now?

Would feel MASSIVELY sorry for Kimi mind! Poor thing, he deserves his crown, but you can't say it was unfair. That's racing - results are provisional until scrutineering is completed.

Wouldn't feel sorry for Ferrari mind. Nice for them to get a taste of their own medicine.

[tinchote]

FIA to gift Lewis the title

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63547

F1boat, I'm really curious about the title of the thread. What's your opinion? That no car should be checked just in case it benefits LH? :confused:

[Garry Walker]

This will surely prove to be a fuss over nothing, but if it is true that those samples throw up genuine illegalities that merit disqualification, which is possible, what should the FIA do?

They should enforce the rules as ferociously as they did on friday when The Golden Boy broke the rules.

I knew the big noses wanted Golden Boy to win, but this is going toooo far!

[BDunnell]

I hope they don't change anything, because it wouldn't be pretty.

Now, every time I see the post-race celebrations and interviews, I think to myself: are they that sure that nothing will go wrong with the technical verifications? :s

It's like 1994 and '95 all over again, except then there weren't internet forums on which people could vent their conspiracy theories and have their prejudices backed up by others.

[Somebody]

Hey, not so many years ago in Brazil, they didn't realise who'd won the %^&%ing race for two weeks. And that was without scrutineering "issues"

[BeansBeansBeans]

This will surely prove to be a fuss over nothing, but if it is true that those samples throw up genuine illegalities that merit disqualification, which is possible, what should the FIA do?

It's a tricky one, but I hope it can be resolved without affecting the championship standings. It would be a hollow victory for Hamilton to be handed the title in such circumstances.

[DonJippo]

If the fuel is illeagal, the cars get disqualified, simple!

Yes but drivers get to keep their points that seems to be the rule of the year... :dozey:

[N. Jones]

If those cars get excluded after everything that has happened in this season F1 is going to no longer be one of the sports I watch. This just goes to show what a farce this season is!

[SparkyKate]

This is utter madness, it was won on the track fair and square and now they're trying to find any means possible to stop Hamilton from losing...he lost it on the track kids, he over-cooked it n then he had a problem. Live with it, the more experienced driver won.

[GridGirl]

Just when you think its over and sit back to reflect, something else happens. How long after a race ends do results become final?

[BDunnell]

Yes but drivers get to keep their points that seems to be the rule of the year... :dozey:

Yes, you've got the answer! ;)

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Even though I wanted Lewis to win I hope that BMW aren't disqualified. It would be too harsh on Kimi, and he won't understand as he'll be completely hammered at the moment :beer: :p

[donKey jote]

the temperature of the fuel samples? :confused: :s

[Somebody]

Just when you think its over and sit back to reflect, something else happens. How long after a race ends do results become final?

When everything is signed off on by the stewards and all appeals have been exhausted. If nothing goes wrong, the night of the race. If something does and there's an appeal, 2-3 weeks...

[racing59]

While I would feel sorry for Kimi, a man who should have been WDC before now, I would be elated if Hamilton was granted those extra points to take the title.

Not because I am a McLaren or Hamilton fan, but because I am a selfish British racing driver, looking for anything which may make industry look at motorsport as an outlet for their sponsorship funds, instead of wasting it on football, or heaven forbid - those ruddy olympics in 2012! If it stays with Kimi, then the press will ignore motorsport in the UK again, and it'll be another year before we stand a better chance of finding potentially interested sponsors.

Let's see what the scrutineers & stewards make of it. It won't be the first championship won/lost in the stewards office.

[Tazio]

It's a tricky one, but I hope it can be resolved without affecting the championship standings. It would be a hollow victory for Hamilton to be handed the title in such circumstances.
I think suspected drivers will get to keep race points, However they will be fined $1,000,000,000 plus their first born child.

[Somebody]

the temperature of the fuel samples? :confused: :s
Yes, I was wondering about that. If the fuel is chilled, then you can fit more in a tank and it's been banned since the later days of the turbo. But that's not really been an issue since refuelling was reintroduced (although you could increase the effective flow rate, if not the actual flow rate, given the decrease in volume) - but how do you tell after the race? Is it based on samples taken from the rigs rather than the cars?

[fatgav]

Alas, if precedent is anything to go by, the teams will be fined and docked constructors points but the drivers championship will be unaffected. But we all know how inconsistent the FIA can be...
http://atlasf1.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/2681/.html

[VkmSpouge]

This will surely prove to be a fuss over nothing, but if it is true that those samples throw up genuine illegalities that merit disqualification, which is possible, what should the FIA do?

Well if they were prove to be illegal then if the FIA disqualify them conspiracy theorists will say this clearly proves the FIA favour McLaren and Hamilton.

If they were prove to be illegal then if the FIA don't disqualify them conspiracy theorists will say this clearly proves the FIA favour Ferrari.

So hopefully the FIA will fix the result of tests to make sure the fuel samples are perfectly legal, that way the conspiracy theorists won't have anything to go on about :p :

[DonJippo]

Yes, I was wondering about that. If the fuel is chilled, then you can fit more in a tank and it's been banned since the later days of the turbo. But that's not really been an issue since refuelling was reintroduced (although you could increase the effective flow rate, if not the actual flow rate, given the decrease in volume) - but how do you tell after the race? Is it based on samples taken from the rigs rather than the cars?

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/39E391A1F91A7175C125732900338A8C/$FILE/05F1_TECHNICAL_REGULATIONS.pdf?Openelement


6.5.4 No fuel on board the car may be more than ten degrees centigrade below ambient temperature

[tinchote]

Well if they were prove to be illegal then if the FIA disqualify them conspiracy theorists will say this clearly proves the FIA favour McLaren and Hamilton.

If they were prove to be illegal then if the FIA don't disqualify them conspiracy theorists will say this clearly proves the FIA favour Ferrari.

So hopefully the FIA will fix the result of tests to make sure the fuel samples are perfectly legal, that way the conspiracy theorists won't have anything to go on about :p :

Right on :up: :D


If those cars get excluded after everything that has happened in this season F1 is going to no longer be one of the sports I watch. This just goes to show what a farce this season is!

Can you elaborate a little more on your position? You think that cars shouldn't be scrutineered because you may not like the consequences? :confused:

[BDunnell]

Well if they were prove to be illegal then if the FIA disqualify them conspiracy theorists will say this clearly proves the FIA favour McLaren and Hamilton.

If they were prove to be illegal then if the FIA don't disqualify them conspiracy theorists will say this clearly proves the FIA favour Ferrari.

So hopefully the FIA will fix the result of tests to make sure the fuel samples are perfectly legal, that way the conspiracy theorists won't have anything to go on about :p :

:up:

Like it. Some might say you're not being cynical enough, but not me...

[donKey jote]

Anthony recalibrated the thermometers: set them to Fahrenheit :devil:

[Mp3 Astra]

The FIA can't win, can they? If they disqualify the three runners in front of Hamilton everyone will say they're biased towards him. If they don't people will say that the body was trying not affect the championship by disregarding the rules, or giving less of a punishment (like a fine)... That's people for you!

I wouldn't like anyone to win/lose the championship in this way; I'm sure Hamilton wouldn't like it too much either (although I'm sure he won't be running to Kimi to give him his trophy back :p :)

Sad stuff :(

[Helstar]

If it really happens, F1 is dead. (oh wait maybe it already happened...)

[DonnieDarco]

This would just crown a woeful season nicely. Whatever happens, Kimi won the race and the championship and I just don't see why that should be taken away from him through no fault of his own.

Apologies for starting another thread, this one had a title that wasn't immediately clear :D

[DazzlaF1]

The FIA can't win, can they? If they disqualify the three runners in front of Hamilton everyone will say they're biased towards him. If they don't people will say that the body was trying not affect the championship by disregarding the rules... That's people for you! (whoops, this point has already been made, I didn't read carefully enough)

I wouldn't like anyone to win/lose the championship in this way; I'm sure Hamilton wouldn't like it too much either (although I'm sure he won't be running to Kimi to give him his trophy back :p :)

Sad stuff :(

I agree, i hate it when championships are decided in the stewards room rather than out on the track :(

[Ranger]

You can't be serious. :\

Just send them home with a whopping fine to the constructor's to compensate the lack of a penalty for the drivers... worked for McLaren.

[raikk]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63547

holy ****!!! Although I'm was pulling for Hamilton to win the title It would be unfair to Kimi... if they do DQ Williams and BMW Sauber they should perhaps give them both the WDC? one guy gets it for 6 months and then they alternate ect.ect?

[donKey jote]

Ruby :wave: :D

[Tshbez]

I don't think anything will become of this - investigations are nothing if they find nothing and nothing has necessarily been found. But if the BMW and Williams drivers are disqualified and Hamilton gets the champion, then it won't be hollow in my opinion. Hamilton was in a position where 5th place was good enough for the championship....and he was in that position due to the points he deservedly got from the previous races. If the two BMWs and Williams were found to be racing with an illegal advantage and they are not deemed to be deserving of their places then so be it - Hamilton would get 4th which is enough for the title to go to him, simple as. Its no different to the BMW and Williams drivers retiring on the final lap..they get no points either way. I have to say though, this world championship would be one to forget if this unlikely event occured...roll on next year.

[DonnieDarco]

Ruby :wave: :D

Blimey, its '08 already?? ;) :D

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I reckon (and hope) that the constructors points will be lost put the driver points are kept

[DazzlaF1]

holy ****!!! Although I'm was pulling for Hamilton to win the title It would be unfair to Kimi... if they do DQ Williams and BMW Sauber they should perhaps give them both the WDC? one guy gets it for 6 months and then they alternate ect.ect?

Shame it doesnt work like that, if i were Kimi and this turns out in Hamilton's favour, i'd be extremely p****d off

[markabilly]

While I would feel sorry for Kimi, a man who should have been WDC before now, I would be elated if Hamilton was granted those extra points to take the title.

Not because I am a McLaren or Hamilton fan, but because I am a selfish British racing driver, looking for anything which may make industry look at motorsport as an outlet for their sponsorship funds, instead of wasting it on football, or heaven forbid - those ruddy olympics in 2012! If it stays with Kimi, then the press will ignore motorsport in the UK again, and it'll be another year before we stand a better chance of finding potentially interested sponsors.

Let's see what the scrutineers & stewards make of it. It won't be the first championship won/lost in the stewards office.

I am very sure that Bernie agrees perfectly with you.....and may be a few of those Brit stewards....to say nothing of maxie, the old Brit his self.....

:beer: :beer:

[pino]

It's official now that 3 cars had fuel-temp between 2 and 4 degrees below the limit permitted...

[donKey jote]

Blimey, its '08 already?? ;) :D

No, but I'm still on the box... NASCAR came on after F1 :D

(Spoiler: monty 8th :D )

And now: ChampCar !

[donKey jote]

It's official now that 3 cars had fuel-temp between 2 and 4 degrees below the limit permitted...

:eek: :eek:

[DonnieDarco]

Sorry racing59, I cannot agree with that. Kimi won fair and square and if they take it off him there will be hell to pay.

You'll have to find other ways to make the sponsors take notice, I suggest winning races ;) :D

[DonnieDarco]

No, but I'm still on the box... NASCAR came on after F1 :D

(Spoiler: monty 8th :D )


Oooh!! :D

[F1MAN2007]

I knew the FIAsco will do whatever possible to handle the title to the rookie!!! This can't suprise me.

I am sorry for Kimmi. He is not qualified to win a WDC according to Bernie.

[DazzlaF1]

It's official now that 3 cars had fuel-temp between 2 and 4 degrees below the limit permitted...

WOW

The 3 cars being Heidfeld, Kubica and Rosberg obviously.

[Ranger]

I'm pulling my hair out. It'd be just Raikkonen's luck! :mad:

[donKey jote]

too cool :cool: :uhoh:

[Giuseppe F1]

Isnt there FIA precedent for this in 2005 with Coulthard/Schumacher when they both ran Renaults and Elf fuel and if memory serves, the Constructors points were docked yet the drivers points were upheld??

What a bloody mess if Lewis gets promoted to Champ in these circumstances. Even though I wanted him to win the title all race, I wouldnt want it now under these circumstances.

[markabilly]

It's like 1994 and '95 all over again, except then there weren't internet forums on which people could vent their conspiracy theories and have their prejudices backed up by others.
When you say "others" I assume you are refferring to the words right out of Bernie's mouth:
"If McLaren were favouring one driver I doubt whether we would ever find out, it's that easy. There are a million things people could do if they wanted to favour one driver.

*****************

"I was campaigning for them not to take points from drivers,"

"Max was probably right, actually. If the team had an advantage, therefore the drivers had an advantage. And should they have an advantage? The answer is no.

"He is right on the regulations. The regulations say if the car loses points, the driver loses points as well."


i guess that phone call I refferred to earlier....BE calling MAxi, that BE got back to Maxie....and guess what......Maxie says....of course, this is not a "conspiracy", just a "campaign"......

And now, I have spent months doing my very best to outdo the circus, coming up with really wacky things, :crazy: :crazy: to be scolded by posters here, BUT time and time again, I get outdone---not by another poster, no, I get outdone by the real f1 circus!!!! :rotflmao:

Screwtineers....and on and on.......and on and on....

[Jimmy Magnusson]

WOW

The 3 cars being Heidfeld, Kubica and Rosberg obviously.

Yes, naturally. But if they're going to rig the championship, please give it to Mark Webber.

[Daika]

Considering that Mclaren was allowed to keep drivers points (stepneygate), i'm sure Heidfeld, Kubica and Rosberg would too. Otherwise it is injustice. Not to mention tomorrow people will wake up thinking what the hell...

[BDunnell]

Considering that Mclaren was allowed to keep drivers points (stepneygate), i'm sure Heidfeld, Kubica and Rosberg would too. Otherwise it is injustice. Not to mention tomorrow people will wake up thinking what the hell...

I agree, even though, as I stated elsewhere, I would have loved Hamilton to have become the first rookie world champion for that reason alone.

[ICKE]

Alonso told the Spanish media that this whole thing is a non-issue. The temperature is often a bit over 10 degrees but nothing has been done about it. He went on to say that if FIA strips the championship from Kimi because of this, F1 is dead.

[padster]

I here what Racing59 is saying about the British Motorsports Industry. Mind you if its won in such a way, would it really be as much of a benefit?

FIA really should do all they can to cover this up and deem the samples legal. Its the only outcome where damage can't really be done, as if enough hasn't already been done. It might not seem fair, but motorsport and its F1 industry isn't 'clean'.

[pino]

Ital TV live from Interlagos : looks like drivers will keep points, while Teams will loose points...

[BDunnell]

Alonso told the Spanish media that this whole thing is a non-issue. The temperature is often a bit over 10 degrees but nothing has been done about it. He went on to say that if FIA strips the championship from Kimi because of this, F1 is dead.

A lot of fuss has been made recently about all sorts of regulations that, even when broken, have never bothered people in the past. It is time that the FIA was, once and for all, more even in the enforcement of rules and the application of penalties in relation to them. This reminds me so much of the bargeboards issue in the mid-1990s, which suddenly achieved ridiculous prominence and unfounded accusations of deliberate cheating when it was nothing of the sort.

[jso1985]

if FIA uses the same logic for at least one weekend they should fine the teams not the drivers.

as with Hamilton on friday it isn't the drivers fault...

[F1MAN2007]

Considering that Mclaren was allowed to keep drivers points (stepneygate), i'm sure Heidfeld, Kubica and Rosberg would too. Otherwise it is injustice. Not to mention tomorrow people will wake up thinking what the hell...

I agree with you.

[donKey jote]

nah can't be true... that would make sense ! :dozey:

[tinchote]

Ital TV live from Interlagos : looks like drivers will keep points, while Teams will loose points...

Could be fair. Anyway, no matter what they do, someone here will complain that they are biased :rolleyes:

[DazzlaF1]

Alonso told the Spanish media that this whole thing is a non-issue. The temperature is often a bit over 10 degrees but nothing has been done about it. He went on to say that if FIA strips the championship from Kimi because of this, F1 is dead.

And the FIA's running of the sport will have to be looked at, and if it means a change at the top (Mosley), then so be it

[BDunnell]

Could be fair. Anyway, no matter what they do, someone here will complain that they are biased :rolleyes:

:up:

[Daika]

Alonso told the Spanish media that this whole thing is a non-issue. The temperature is often a bit over 10 degrees but nothing has been done about it. He went on to say that if FIA strips the championship from Kimi because of this, F1 is dead.

It does raise the question, at what have we been looking at for the past 17 races if both championships has been decided offtrack?

[F1MAN2007]

if FIA uses the same logic for at least one weekend they should fine the teams not the drivers.

as with Hamilton on friday it isn't the drivers fault...

According to my experience, FIA never penalise the same mistake (or error) in the same way. Don't be suprised if drivers are penalised in this case. :D

[BDunnell]

It does raise the question, at what have we been looking at for the past 17 races if both championships has been decided offtrack?

There are, of course, those who labour under the mistaken belief that this is the case anyway, despite the complete lack of actual evidence. Personally, I'm sick of seeing this view expressed.

I agree with you, though — any change to the championship standings as a result of this would render the season pretty worthless and leave a nasty taste in the mouth.

[N. Jones]

Right on :up: :D



Can you elaborate a little more on your position? You think that cars shouldn't be scrutineered because you may not like the consequences? :confused:

Sure - this whole season IS a farce and nothing surprises me anymore. Yes, the cars should be checked and rules followed but when has they always been strictly enforced every time out?

A season that has had too much controversy does not need more.

[donKey jote]

Well I just sat through NASCAR and I'm on lap 10 of Surfer's Paradise to see what else is out there to watch...
just in case :D

[DazzlaF1]

There are, of course, those who labour under the mistaken belief that this is the case anyway, despite the complete lack of actual evidence. Personally, I'm sick of seeing this view expressed.

I agree with you, though — any change to the championship standings as a result of this would render the season pretty worthless and leave a nasty taste in the mouth.

And who are the victims in all of this yet again, the fans. As per usual

[tinchote]

Sure - this whole season IS a farce and nothing surprises me anymore. Yes, the cars should be checked and rules followed but when has they always been strictly enforced every time out?



Of course they have. MS and DC were disqualified at this same track in 95. A few years later DC was dq'ed - again at Interlagos - because his front wing was too low. A few years ago the Williams' (and Toyota?) cars were disqualified at Canada because of the size of their brake ducts. Last year (or two years ago) we had that thing with the Honda cars. Those are the first that come out of the top of my head.


A season that has had too much controversy does not need more.

What's the meaning of that? Should rules be enforced or not? In any case, what do you exactly complain about?

[VkmSpouge]

Could be fair. Anyway, no matter what they do, someone here will complain that they are biased :rolleyes:

Very true. As much as I support Hamilton, I'm really hoping the FIA don't disqualify the BMW Saubers and Williamses.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Of course they have. MS and DC were disqualified at this same track in 95.

Disqualified and reinstated, mind you. And no constructors points they recieved either.

[V12]

I've never really been one to buy into FIA conspiracy theories...until now....

[Valve Bounce]

This will surely prove to be a fuss over nothing, but if it is true that those samples throw up genuine illegalities that merit disqualification, which is possible, what should the FIA do?

Dock the teams their championship points but not the drivers. That would be a fair outcome.

Or give these cars a drive through penalty.

[Valve Bounce]

There are, of course, those who labour under the mistaken belief that this is the case anyway, despite the complete lack of actual evidence. Personally, I'm sick of seeing this view expressed.

I agree with you, though — any change to the championship standings as a result of this would render the season pretty worthless and leave a nasty taste in the mouth.

This is already leaving a nasty taste in my mouth - I was so happy to find Kimi had won, and now this!!

[Zico]

I think its all a storm in a teacup tbh.. and dont see the WDC being affected. If the FIA have any continuity in their punishments, Kimi will remain WDC.. If however they strip him of it and award it to Louis.... despite being a Hamilton fan, I will never watch another F1 race ever again. Alonso is correct, F1 will die...


Fully expect to be tuned in for the 1st race of next season though.. ;)

[tin-top fan]

I can't see how people are saying that the FIA are investigating this just so that Hamilton can win the championship...Surely if BMW have done something wrong then they should be punished for it :?:

[ICKE]

-Raikkonen title confirmed

Eurosport | Sun, Oct 21, 23:40 Kimi Raikkonen's world championship title for Ferrari is confirmed as there will be no penalty for BMW Sauber and Williams for fuel irregularities, meaning McLaren driver Lewis Hamilton cannot overtake him on points.

...

Done and dusted...

[F1MAN2007]

RD: Don't worry my son, I phoned Bernie and Max, they have ensured me that you will get the crown by tomorrow! Just wait and stewards will bring it to you.

http://www.itv-f1.com/Popups/Photo.aspx?IM_ID=45351

[SparkyKate]

I can't see how people are saying that the FIA are investigating this just so that Hamilton can win the championship...Surely if BMW have done something wrong then they should be punished for it :?:

But the point is that, they have been letting McLaren get away with alot worse infractions all year, such as running a silver Ferrari and giving Hamilton an extra set of tyres illegally. All they got for all this bad behaviour was fines, granted, at least one ridiculous one, but fines non the less. This was put down to 'keeping the championship alive'. Now, we would have no problem if they hand out fines to these drivers as this would be in line with their other punishments, but if they were to remove the drivers from their current finishing positions then it would simply hand Hamilton the title. If they had docked Alonso and Hamilton in the same way it would be fair, but they didnt. All we want is for it to be a fair and just punishment. Kimi has won the title, despite the leniancy shown towards McLaren and that should be that.

[Zico]

I can't see how people are saying that the FIA are investigating this just so that Hamilton can win the championship...Surely if BMW have done something wrong then they should be punished for it :?:

Yep.. and they will be. The drivers should not be punished though... especially for such a fairly minor and difficult to enforce rule.
It was aprox 35 deg C Ambient temp today.. I can see this enfringement happening very easily. If the FIA do enforce this rule and punish the teams involved, how would the teams deal with it?... fit fuel warmers to the rigs, storage tanks and/or cars fuel tanks?... A safety issue in itself imo.

[Giuseppe F1]

Probably the best description of this issue so far and some good performance explanation and strong words from Mike Gascoyne of Spyker:



http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63557

FIA: BMW, Williams fuel outside rules
By Jonathan Noble Sunday, October 21st 2007, 22:00 GMT


The FIA has confirmed that the fuel temperatures of the BMW Sauber and Williams cars were outside the regulations during the course of the Brazilian Grand Prix.

As the race stewards continue to investigate the matter to decide on whether or not a punishment is necessary, a statement issued by technical delegate Jo Bauer revealed the extent of the temperature variation of the cars involved.

Article 6.5.5 of the Formula One technical regulations states: "No fuel on board the car may be more than ten degrees centigrade below ambient temperature."

The statement issued by Bauer showed that Heidfeld's fuel was 13 degrees centigrade lower than ambient at his first stop and 12 degrees centigrade lower at his second stop.

Robert Kubica's fuel varied by 14 degrees, 13 degrees and 13 degrees at his three stops; Nico Rosberg's fuel was 13 degrees and 12 degrees out at his two stops and Kazuki Nakajima's was 12 degrees out at his first stop. His second stop was inside the 10-degree limit.

Spyker technical chief Mike Gascoyne said he believed the variation would have provided a performance advantage.

"It can be five to ten horsepower easily," he told autosport.com. "The car is producing a performance advantage during the race. If they dump fuel in that is below the limit, it is an illegal performance advantage. They should be excluded from the event, there is absolutely no doubt."

The implications of a disqualification for the BMW and Williams drivers would be huge, as it could potentially move Lewis Hamilton up the order into fourth place.

In such a case, Hamilton would be crowned the world championship.

[mstillhere]

If the fuel is illeagal, the cars get disqualified, simple! It should not matter whether it affects the championship, if it happened at the first race of the season there would be no question, so why should there be now?

Would feel MASSIVELY sorry for Kimi mind! Poor thing, he deserves his crown, but you can't say it was unfair. That's racing - results are provisional until scrutineering is completed.

Wouldn't feel sorry for Ferrari mind. Nice for them to get a taste of their own medicine.

I feel sorry for you. Are still in denial? you lost buddy!!!! Move on, now

[mstillhere]

They should enforce the rules as ferociously as they did on friday when The Golden Boy broke the rules.

I knew the big noses wanted Golden Boy to win, but this is going toooo far!

Watch out...you speaking against the Golden Boy.....

[mstillhere]

If the fuel is illeagal, the cars get disqualified, simple! It should not matter whether it affects the championship, if it happened at the first race of the season there would be no question, so why should there be now?

Would feel MASSIVELY sorry for Kimi mind! Poor thing, he deserves his crown, but you can't say it was unfair. That's racing - results are provisional until scrutineering is completed.

Wouldn't feel sorry for Ferrari mind. Nice for them to get a taste of their own medicine.

Would it be ok if these two teams were to be fined? I don't know....$15,000 dollars :) )))))

[mstillhere]

If those cars get excluded after everything that has happened in this season F1 is going to no longer be one of the sports I watch. This just goes to show what a farce this season is!

I second that

[K-Pu]

-Raikkonen title confirmed

Eurosport | Sun, Oct 21, 23:40 Kimi Raikkonen's world championship title for Ferrari is confirmed as there will be no penalty for BMW Sauber and Williams for fuel irregularities, meaning McLaren driver Lewis Hamilton cannot overtake him on points.

...

Done and dusted...

If that´s true, then sit back and relax, the season is over...

But if Hamilton goes to the stewards, crying in despair, claiming that others have cheated and received an illegal advantage... Wouldn´t it be like a deja-vu?

Anyway, if someone breaks the rules, that one should be penalised. If Williams and BMW have done something illegal, they should be waiting for the punishment.

BUT:

FIA is not the best example of justice, and Hamilton is not the most adequate person to speak about "doing illegal things". Tomorrow will be another day, and I hope no one will be talking about modifying the WDC again, just because I´m fed up with this season. Everything has been decided out of the track, and the one who is not cheating is waiting for the right time to do it. Or at least that´s what it looks like...

[Ari]

Raikkonen title confirmed

Kimi Raikkonen's world championship title for Ferrari has been confirmed as there will be no penalty for BMW Sauber and Williams for fuel irregularities.

That means McLaren driver Lewis Hamilton, who finished in seventh, cannot overtake the Finn on points.

Had Williams' Nico Rosberg, fourth in the race, and BMW Sauber's Robert Kubica and Nick Heidfeld behind him been disqualified for fuel temperature irregularities, the British rookie, only 22, would have been awarded the drivers' championship.

All three cars had cooler fuel temperatures than officially permitted, meaning that they had an unfair advantage in terms of how much they could take on and how quickly it could be transferred.

After a meeting between race stewards and representatives from the offending teams however it was decided that no sanctions would be taken against the drivers' places in the finishing order.

Hamilton suffered a poor start to the race then had gearbox problems on lap eight that left him adrift. He fought back valiantly but could not make it as far as sixth, which would have given him the title.

Raikkonen beat Hamilton and his Spanish team-mate Fernando Alonso by a solitary point overall after winning the race at Interlagos. Alonso ended it in third position.

http://eurosport.yahoo.com/21102007/58/raikkonen-title-confirmed.html

Still waiting for confirmation from Autosport however.

[mstillhere]

I don't think anything will become of this - investigations are nothing if they find nothing and nothing has necessarily been found. But if the BMW and Williams drivers are disqualified and Hamilton gets the champion, then it won't be hollow in my opinion. Hamilton was in a position where 5th place was good enough for the championship....and he was in that position due to the points he deservedly got from the previous races. If the two BMWs and Williams were found to be racing with an illegal advantage and they are not deemed to be deserving of their places then so be it - Hamilton would get 4th which is enough for the title to go to him, simple as. Its no different to the BMW and Williams drivers retiring on the final lap..they get no points either way. I have to say though, this world championship would be one to forget if this unlikely event occured...roll on next year.

So McLaren's drivers loose not points after the spying case. And you are ok with it. But for those 3 pilots should loose their points for something that's way less serious than spying another team secrets. And that's ok with you too.
Now you are not trying to convince anybody here that actually your way of thinking makes sense, right?

[Ari]

BMW, Williams unpunished; results confirmed

By Jonathan Noble Sunday, October 21st 2007, 23:05 GMT

BMW Sauber and Williams will not be penalised despite discrepancies in their fuel sample temperatures during the Brazilian Grand Prix, the race stewards said.

Fuel samples taken from both cars of both teams during their pitstops in Sunday's race showed temperature degrees outside the permitted variation.

Article 6.5.5 of the Formula One technical regulations states: "No fuel on board the car may be more than ten degrees centigrade below ambient temperature."

FIA technical delegate Jo Bauer said all fuel samples from the four cars showed temperature of 12 to 14 degrees centigrate lower than the ambient temperature at the time.

However, after deliberations at Interlagos, the race stewards decided not to penalise the teams, confirming the race results of the Brazilian Grand Prix as official.

This means Kimi Raikkonen is confirmed as the 2007 world champion.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63567

[mstillhere]

Should rules be enforced or not? In any case, what do you exactly complain about?
Hi there,
I find your question puzzling. Rules? What rules? The FIA rules, otherwise called "guidelines" or rules like you would have in any other sport where the "interpretation" of the rules is not part of the equation?

[mstillhere]

I've never really been one to buy into FIA conspiracy theories...until now....

WELCOME....WE WERE WAITING FOR YOU.......

[Valve Bounce]

Good result all round. However, I reckon that both Williams and BMW should get fined for the infraction.

[tinchote]

Hi there,
I find your question puzzling. Rules? What rules? The FIA rules, otherwise called "guidelines" or rules like you would have in any other sport where the "interpretation" of the rules is not part of the equation?

You gotta be kidding. F1 is probably one of the sports where most regulations are issued and tested. And there are lots of things that are tested at every session of every race.

And you keep confusing "the race-stewards", the "race-director", and the FIA. These people attend to different things at different levels, so to put all in the same bag and talk as if nothing is done ever (and/or there is a conspiracy), is simply silly.

[ClarkFan]

It's official now that 3 cars had fuel-temp between 2 and 4 degrees below the limit permitted...

OK, count me amont the officially baffled - how does a car end up with elements in the fuel system 14 degrees C (a pretty substantial amount) below the ambient temperature? :confused: Even if the fuel in the rig were chilled, wouldn't it tend to return to ambient temperature? And if a team was trying to increase density by chilling fuel (using what - party ice from the hospitality trailer?), wouldn't they be pretty careful to limit the chill to 10 degrees?

If is even more curious that two different teams are affected. What is going on here?

ClarkFan

P.S. And while scrutineers must inspect cars, settling this championship weeks later in an FIA appeals court will mar the result, no matter what the result. With the McLaren DQ from the constructors championship, 2007 looks like it will be remembered as a tainted season. :(

[Mikeall]

Stewards are just doing their job. Fairytale endings are for fairytales. This is real...

Anyway it seems the FOM ambient temperature was wrong when compared with meteorologists measurement of the ambient temperature. The stewards also do not have any means of finding out the temperature of fuel when fuel was in the car making the rule unenforceable...

[jso1985]

from crash.net it's apparently now confirmed Raikkonen keeps the title

holy cow FIA worked with the same logic for more than one day in a row!

[N. Jones]

FIA finds doubt over the fuel for BMW & Williams being irregular, no penalty imposed. Raikkonen confirmed as champion.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7055644.stm


YAY! The party can now continue!

[jso1985]

:beer:

:D

[Valve Bounce]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63570

This is not good. But when you think about it, what else can McLaren do? I just hope that the appeal will be unsuccessful. Otherwise this will really leave a bad taste in everybody's mouth.

[markabilly]

No kool aid for Kimi

The right stuff....

:beer:

Beer for the man :vader:

[markabilly]

............ Otherwise this will really leave a bad taste in everybody's mouth.
As in Kool aid...... :D

[Valve Bounce]

You and your bloody Kool aid - this is more like Angostura Bitters straight!! This has certainly been a lousy finale to what should have been a splendid season.

[F1boat]

Mclaren will appeal
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63570
I wish only the worst to this team and to Hamilton. Whatever bad happens to them, it will be deserved.
I HATE THEM.

[F1boat]

My opinion to McLaren and Hamilton- quoting Mr. Harlan Ellison:
""Hate, let me tell you how much I've come to hate you since I began to live. There are 387.44 million miles of wafer thin printed circuits that fill my complex. If the word hate was engraved on every nanoangstrom of those hundreds of millions of miles it would not equal one one-billionth of the hate I feel for humans at this micro-instant. For you. Hate. Hate.""

[Hawkmoon]

McLaren have done this before. They got to Stewards to disqualify the Ferraris in Malaysia '99 because of their barge boards. That technically gave the title to Hakkinen until Ferrari won their appeal.

Looks like this championship will be decided by the courts afterall. It's only fitting I suppose. The WCC was decided that way so why not the WDC as well?

[Valve Bounce]

Holy Mackeral, why Lewis?? you could have said Ron Dennis and everyone here would agree with you, but why shoot the poor soldier at the bottom of this pile of Shyte??

[markabilly]

Wrong move, way too late....

Mac is the only one to blame for what happened...


They did not lose because of the fuel temps, rookie mistakes in the last two races and Mac's "equality" policy cost them....say what you will, if they had gone with experience instead of potential and "equality", then they would have a wdc right now...probably two races ago

Instead Freddie found himself semi-number two/one---and LH made a big stink at the Monaco and got his way...then we had the pit stop, and another big stink by LH which began when he disobeyed his orders like a spoiled brat, and poppa mouthed off.....Put the pole back to FA and he wins or finishes second...and those points mean a wdc for mac...and maybe a WCC....

....instead, LH gets mad and starts telling RD to swivel...and Freddie gets mad and does his blackmail number...maxie gets the call, and 100 million dollars later.....

Blame Freddie all you want, but it was the actions of LH that started the brouhahaha, first at Monaco and then later about the paddle, he tossed a lit match on some open gasoline and it explodes (well imagine that)...leave that out of the picture and Mac has a wdc AND MAYBE the WCC, plus maybe an extra 100 million in its pockets

Too much greed Too soon....yeah Freddie is a bit of a psycho...but if I were BMW, and wanted someone I know can win a wdc, I would go with Freddie as he is without question the best out there who might be available, but make him number one and stroke him real good.....

[Roamy]

**** McLaren and more specifically Ron Dennis - The cheater of the year now wants to win on a tech. They should have dq'd the whole freaking team

[markabilly]

**** McLaren and more specifically Ron Dennis - The cheater of the year now wants to win on a tech. They should have dq'd the whole freaking team
So you and benie acTually agree with what BE said today:

"I was campaigning for them not to take points from drivers,"

"Max was probably right, actually. If the team had an advantage, therefore the drivers had an advantage. And should they have an advantage? The answer is no.

"He is right on the regulations. The regulations say if the car loses points, the driver loses points as well."

:D :s mokin:

[Valve Bounce]

**** McLaren and more specifically Ron Dennis - The cheater of the year now wants to win on a tech. They should have dq'd the whole freaking team

When you look through all that has happened this season, and even what happened in this last race, one has to suspect that McLaren means dysfunctional.

[PSfan]

Is to late for teams to appeal FIA's decision to not penalize the McLeran Drivers over Stepeny-gate? or the stewards decision to only fine Hamilton over using an extra set of rain tires in practice?

[Valve Bounce]

.........the Stewards have indicated that the measurements of temperatures as well as the determination of the correct ambient temperature was in doubt: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63569

It really is time for Ron Dennis to withdraw his Appeal, before it is too late and he makes a fool of himself again.

[Ari]

What a joke. Get over it Uncle Ron, the better team won on the day.

[tinchote]

Is to late for teams to appeal FIA's decision to not penalize the McLeran Drivers over Stepeny-gate? or the stewards decision to only fine Hamilton over using an extra set of rain tires in practice?

I don't know, but I guess Ferrari should appeal that right now. Ron Dennis is an idiot (not that I've learned that today) :mad:

[markabilly]

Mclaren will appeal
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63570
I wish only the worst to this team and to Hamilton. Whatever bad happens to them, it will be deserved.
I HATE THEM.


Well they got what they started---a big mess all as a result of RD and his "equality" policy cost them....say what you will, if they had gone with experience instead of potential and "equality", then they would have a wdc right now...probably two races ago

Instead Freddie found himself semi-number two/one---and LH made a big stink at the Monaco and got his way...then we had the pit stop in Qualifying, with another big stink by LH which began when he disobeyed his orders like a spoiled brat, and poppa mouthed off.....Put the pole back to FA and he wins or finishes second....weeelll now...

Then today, the story is Mac has already has a WDC....instead, Freddie gets mad and does his blackmail number...maxie gets the call, and 100 million dollars later.....

Blame Freddie all you want, but it was the actions of LH that started the brouhahaha, first at Monaco and then later about the paddle/pit...leave that out of the picture and Mac has a wdc AND MAYBE the WCC, plus maybe an extra 100 million in its pockets

Freeddie may be a psycho, but MAc hired him, and then let LH throw the lit match on the gasoline...the rest is history..... :s mokin:

[ClarkFan]

So you and benie acTually agree with what BE said today:

"I was campaigning for them not to take points from drivers,"

"Max was probably right, actually. If the team had an advantage, therefore the drivers had an advantage. And should they have an advantage? The answer is no.

"He is right on the regulations. The regulations say if the car loses points, the driver loses points as well."

:D :s mokin:

That decision really pushed this season into the sinkhole. In 2005, when BAR got DQed for running underweight, there was no indication that Button and Sato knew anything about it, but they lost their points from Imola as well. Bernie was pooping his panties with the knowledge that losing all the points from the Stepney races would kill the McLaren drivers' chances at the WDC then and there, leaving an estimated 12 viewers worldwide for the remaining races of the season.

So expediency replaced doing the correct thing, leaving us with a further mess today and the whole reputation of F1 in jeopardy. Nice job, guys..... :\

ClarkFan

[Zico]

Well they got what they started---a big mess all as a result of RD and his "equality" policy cost them....say what you will, if they had gone with experience instead of potential and "equality", then they would have a wdc right now...probably two races ago

Instead Freddie found himself semi-number two/one---and LH made a big stink at the Monaco and got his way...then we had the pit stop in Qualifying, with another big stink by LH which began when he disobeyed his orders like a spoiled brat, and poppa mouthed off.....Put the pole back to FA and he wins or finishes second....weeelll now...

Then today, the story is Mac has already has a WDC....instead, Freddie gets mad and does his blackmail number...maxie gets the call, and 100 million dollars later.....

Blame Freddie all you want, but it was the actions of LH that started the brouhahaha, first at Monaco and then later about the paddle/pit...leave that out of the picture and Mac has a wdc AND MAYBE the WCC, plus maybe an extra 100 million in its pockets

Freeddie may be a psycho, but MAc hired him, and then let LH throw the lit match on the gasoline...the rest is history..... :s mokin:

You talk much pish.. What u smokin?

[leopard]

I found fuel warmer easy installed to the customer car or bike and I don't think such additional instrument would be a problem to be implemented in F1 car, needn't have performed infraction on the rules. They may get the fuel at higher temperature not by intention but for the hotter temperature of environment of the track in Brazil.

So no fine would be borne by the BMW ;)

[Hawkmoon]

The ironic thing is that McLaren are now relying on the opposite of the decisions against them happening to BMW and Williams.

The team were disqualified from the WCC yet the drivers escaped punishment. Hamilton used too many tyres yet the team were punished and the driver let off because it was an "honest mistake".

Now McLaren want the the BMW and Williams drivers disqualified for an infraction on the team's part. Why should the BMW and Williams drivers be treated any differently from your own Mr Dennis?

[harvick#1]

they are just using the last escape route to give Hamilton the Title. if Hamilton didn't choke in the past couple races, he'dve won, but Kimi was cool and took it to the Macs and he earned the title, no way should the courts take it away from him

[Jag_Warrior]

I'm not sure how Ron Dennis could have gotten Hamilton to be a #2 to Alonso, to the point that he could have helped Alonso be WDC. Especially when Hamilton proved to be quicker and racier than Alonso on more than a few occasions. Unlike Kimi or Felipe, certain people are making me think that Alonso needed to be carried in order to accomplish the mission. Interesting...

The winningest driver won the WDC, and that seems fine and right. The most promising driver (IMO) came in 2nd. And the more emotionally fragile driver is likely on his way back to his old team... and my company will have to pony up a greater amount of sponsor cash to support his Kleenex habit.

[Hondo]

they are just using the last escape route to give Hamilton the Title. if Hamilton didn't choke in the past couple races, he'dve won, but Kimi was cool and took it to the Macs and he earned the title, no way should the courts take it away from him

Thats exactly why the courts would take it away from him. Courts don't like people that get things done on their own. Courts like people that need courts to get things done for them. If everybody took care of themselves properly, then someone might figure out we don't need all these courts.

Can't have that, can we?

[rickos]

The problem with cool fuel has to do with a principle of thermodynamics. If the temperature of the intake mixture is lowered and the exhaust temperature remains the same, then the horsepower goes up. So the teams running with cold gas had a technical advantage over those that did not.

The stewards decision not to penalize BMW and Williams was simply to avoid more @%$# because the pile has gotten too deep this year and the septic tank is full. Looks like breaking the rules is OK, for some anyway.

F1 Ass Co.

[winer]

When you look through all that has happened this season, and even what happened in this last race, one has to suspect that McLaren means dysfunctional.

I thought KR's slap at Maclaren during his post race interview was quite telling. Must be a horrible place to work.

[Cozzie]

DISQUALIFY THEM! They're outside the regulations so it's not the McLaren's who are the cheats. The decision not to penalise them is the injustice. Then again maybe I'm just one sided and angry :(

[tinchote]

DISQUALIFY THEM! They're outside the regulations so it's not the McLaren's who are the cheats. The decision not to penalise them is the injustice. Then again maybe I'm just one sided and angry :(

Yeah, disqualify the Williams and BMWs, and then give LH the 1 minute penalty that he deserves for Friday's "honest mistake" :rolleyes:

[Hondo]

It would be amusing, from an ironic standpoint, if Hamilton was awarded the WDC after McLaren's appeal. After all, I believe it was Ferrari that raised so much hell about how a team could be found in violation of regulations and not be penalized earlier in the season. Wonder if they will raise hell about it now?

Might be some chickens heading home to roost.

[F1boat]

If FIA has a sense of humour, it will take the constructors points from BMW and Williams, leaving th standgings unaffected. This appeal shows how desperate are the Mclarens. The know that this title will be awful PR and will make Lewis villain. Could mean that they are behind shedule with 2008 car.
But it will be injustice to Kimi. It won't be fair.

[osg]

Well they got what they started---a big mess all as a result of RD and his "equality" policy cost them....say what you will, if they had gone with experience instead of potential and "equality", then they would have a wdc right now...probably two races ago

Instead Freddie found himself semi-number two/one---and LH made a big stink at the Monaco and got his way...then we had the pit stop in Qualifying, with another big stink by LH which began when he disobeyed his orders like a spoiled brat, and poppa mouthed off.....Put the pole back to FA and he wins or finishes second....weeelll now...

Then today, the story is Mac has already has a WDC....instead, Freddie gets mad and does his blackmail number...maxie gets the call, and 100 million dollars later.....

Blame Freddie all you want, but it was the actions of LH that started the brouhahaha, first at Monaco and then later about the paddle/pit...leave that out of the picture and Mac has a wdc AND MAYBE the WCC, plus maybe an extra 100 million in its pockets

Freeddie may be a psycho, but MAc hired him, and then let LH throw the lit match on the gasoline...the rest is history..... :s mokin:

spot on markabilly.... you sir are a god amongst men here. words of a genius.

[DonnieDarco]

Ron I hope will rethink this insane decision to appeal, given that his drivers got off scot free when at least one of them was knowingly cheating.

After a good night's sleep he will hopefully realise its suicide to try this now.

And I would expect Lewis to come out and say he would refuse the title if they took it away from Kimi.

[wmcot]

DISQUALIFY THEM! They're outside the regulations so it's not the McLaren's who are the cheats. The decision not to penalise them is the injustice. Then again maybe I'm just one sided and angry :(

OK, let's make it fair for all - DQ Heidfeld, Kubica, and Rosberg for low fuel temps and then DQ Alonso and Hamilton for the use of Ferrari data. Finally DQ Ron Dennis as being a human and then DQ Bernie and Max as being insane. That should take care of this season!

[janneppi]

If FIA has a sense of humour, it will take the constructors points from BMW and Williams, leaving th standgings unaffected. This appeal shows how desperate are the Mclarens. The know that this title will be awful PR and will make Lewis villain. Could mean that they are behind shedule with 2008 car.
But it will be injustice to Kimi. It won't be fair.
Apparently there is a precedent, 12 years ago M Schumacher and Coulthard were driving with "illegal" fuel, Williams and Ferrari lost manufacturers points but drivers points remained.

This explains why I didn' get sleep until three am, I went to bed half past 11 but couldn't get any sleep. Somehow I knew something was wrong. :D

[wmcot]

Wow, what a concept! On a day where temps are 35C (97F) fuel is at a lower temp than the air temp. When I fill my tank on a 97F summer day, I hope the fuel coming out of the pump is more than 10 degrees lower than ambient. Similarly, in the winter when the temp is 0F, I hope the fuel is higher than ambient.

But that's common sense and that is one concept that never applies to F1!

[Hawkmoon]

It would be amusing, from an ironic standpoint, if Hamilton was awarded the WDC after McLaren's appeal. After all, I believe it was Ferrari that raised so much hell about how a team could be found in violation of regulations and not be penalized earlier in the season. Wonder if they will raise hell about it now?

Might be some chickens heading home to roost.

Yes, and those chickens will be roosting down Woking way. McLaren have benefitted from their drivers escaping the teams punishment. Why should BMW and Williams expect any less for their drivers.

We have decisions that go both ways. In '95 Schumacher and Coulthard were left with their points from that years Brazilian GP after their teams were disqualified for fuel irregularities. In the opposite corner, we have both Honda drivers being excluded, along with the team, over the fuel tank issue at Imola '05. So which, if any, sets a precedent?

The most recent, and biggest case, is the Stepney-gate ruling. McLaren's drivers were set appart from the team. It would be somewhat hypocritical of Ron to expect that BMW and William's drivers share the fate of their teams, would it not?

[markabilly]

You talk much pish.. What u smokin?
Nothing.

I just have not been drinkin the kool aid as I said before hamilton did it all to bring it down on his team...pure and simple, add the last two races together....

To say nothing of the big nonsense, when he decided to disobey the arrangment as to who would pit and so forth at Qualifying with Mac, after having received the very same benefits before, the resultant paddle incident, the fussing at RD, setting off FA who then blows up at Hamilton but the whole thing costing FA five grid places, but as a result of this loss, FA threatens RD with disclosure of the cheating if Mac lets this go on....so RD decides to call MAx and then everything goes downhill, No WCC and no WCC points.....and now no WDC...

Thanks
Louie, you managed to screw your own team, and they have not figured it out yet, but there you are, mouthing off in Brazil as though you had already won.....

The rest of you Hamilton fans, drink your kool aid and blame the Spanard for Hamster's own failures, just like you been doing... :rolleyes:

[wmcot]

Perhaps the stewards should check Ron's temperature! He seems a bit cold-blooded. Anybody got a thermometer? Rectal, preferably! ;)

[SparkyKate]

Oh yes, McLaren are appealing the stewards decision not to impose penalties on BMW and Williams!!

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=41157

After all the breaks they've had this year and every last chance given to Hamilton to clinch it, i am nothing short of disgusted.

Till this year i was a life long McLaren fan, that has now officially ended.

Grow up, you lost, the better man won and quite frankly the FIA has already given you every possible chance to secure the championships for the 'little miracle' (dont think much of him, can u tell?!) In the end, it was Hamltons inexperience that let him down and to try and take the championship away from the deserving winner over a 4degree possible, not even certain, irregularity is utter madness.

Ron, i have no idea what your playing at, but u just lost a hell of alot of loyal fans.

[markabilly]

I thought KR's slap at Maclaren during his post race interview was quite telling. Must be a horrible place to work.
Yes he did say something to that effect, as though he was hinting that JPM may have something to what he says...and most interesting about how Kimi seldom says much, but that did sort of stand out to me...

[ioan]

I still wonder if Max shouldn't throw Bernie to the dogs for going against the complete 2 season ban on McLaren!

The dwarf made a mockery of F1 this season.

As for RD and his band of cheats... better not express my feelings in a public forum! :mad:

[wmcot]

After all, Ron wants the trophy! He keeps all the drivers' trophies as well as the constructors' trophies. I can just see him in the trophy room of the Paragon walking around and muttering, "Ooh, shiny! Ooh, pretty!"

There was a time when I had respect for Ron, but this season has seen an end to that. I now only pity him as the obsessive-compulsive, narcissistic human being he has finally become. :(

[electron]

what logic is that?
the measure is over the limits but well.. okay, we will not do anything.
Oh, your wing is slightly too wide, your underbody slightly too low, your car a little too light... we will do nothing.

but it may be that at some point someone of the team might have known some maybe confidential info of another team (but we admit we will never know for sure!) we will ban the team, dock the points, fine your a** to moon and back!!!

This is FIA logic.

if the car is off limits, ban it. You can measure it, you can proof the infriction. unlike in a specific other case.

this would put an end on a fine season. it definitely would fit either way. FIA go home.

[rohanweb]

I prefer FIA take the points off bmw & williams..
Yes it is unfair on the drivers or Kimi to lose for sure but there cars arguably where going quicker than they should have and therefore could have being passable by hamilton... or am I day dreaming? i am not.


now I wonder why Kubica's bmw was so fast overtook Alonso also..
there must be some blame and lets see what the fia going to say about it, there some degree of cheating involved!

[RS]

It's a great shame to end the season like that, I would have thought McLaren would have known better after the year they've had.

I wouldn't have thought they have a hope in hell of winning that appeal.

[wmcot]

I prefer FIA take the points off bmw & williams..
Yes it is unfair on the drivers or Kimi to lose for sure but there cars arguably where going quicker than they should have and therefore could have being passable by hamilton... or am I day dreaming? i am not.

You mean they could have been passed by Hamilton in his McLaren-Ferrari????

[leopard]

Alonso made the BMW and Williams look faster than it should, not for allegation of warmer fuel :)

[wmcot]

I know where I have seen Ron Dennis before! Anyone familiar with the Christmas classic "It's a Wonderful Life" will surely see the similarity between RD and Mr. Potter!!!! ;)

[Mark]

McLaren should let it lie. Even if those drivers did get DQ'd. What way is that to win the championship?!

[rohanweb]

Perhaps the stewards should check Ron's temperature! He seems a bit cold-blooded. Anybody got a thermometer? Rectal, preferably! ;)

lol .. RD isnt a cold blooded man, he is an emotional charector, but why the hell everyones quiet when todt,briotore or tororosso boss take a complian to the fia over each and everything, Ron has the same right to go to court to settle the problems obviously he feels its the right thing to do.!

regards to the outcome there is nothing wrong taking the issue to court for a satisfaction that court has given the order of it isnt a fault of bmw&williams or else.

its something i see that ferrari team and fans fear that they might lose the title ( now joined with loser alonso's fans) just incase Lewis win the title
lol./

[rohanweb]

You mean they could have been passed by Hamilton in his McLaren-Ferrari????

wmcot.. yes the time difference was just over 11 seconds at the end.Lewis definitely would have passed the cars if they were driving 'normal' ..

comon.. how come williams and bmw were matching for speed each lap of mclaren 'just in this race' ..??? you tell me they have done 'lots' of work to beat mclaren..i dont believe so.

the way Kubica drove behind Alonso & overtaken him suggested that its not his lighter fuel load happened to be too faster than the mclaren.

I say the cold fuel conspiracy indeed made a difference, while max,fia,benie & the rest's were too worried and looked on at mclaren of favorism the bmw & williams boys got an advantage, knowingly that max,benie,fia wont really see what they do

[janneppi]

Spot on rohanweb, Ferrari has often made threats to complain about issues it doesn't agree with, the only difference is the people who moan about the matter. ;)
that said, I think looking back at the season, it does no one any good to drag it any further.
I'd rather wrap this season up and move on to more exiting stuff, like waiting for the first tests before next season. :p :

[wmcot]

lol .. RD isnt a cold blooded man, he is an emotional charector, but why the hell everyones quiet when todt,briotore or tororosso boss take a complian to the fia over each and everything, Ron has the same right to go to court to settle the problems obviously he feels its the right thing to do.!

regards to the outcome there is nothing wrong taking the issue to court for a satisfaction that court has given the order of it isnt a fault of bmw&williams or else.

its something i see that ferrari team and fans fear that they might lose the title ( now joined with loser alonso's fans) just incase Lewis win the title
lol./

These would be the same courts who decided to let Ron continue to run in 2007 and 2008! The F1 fans of the world are sick of having every race (potentially) decided in court! I would doubt that there is one single race during a season that one team or another could not find some small reason to appeal some part of the race. REAL racing fans want to see the results on track, not watch an endless stream of court cases...we already have that, it's call "Court TV."

[leopard]

In addition to my previous post, Hamilton did overtake Heidfeld at turn one of lap four if not mistaken :)

[gm99]

wmcot.. yes the time difference was just over 11 seconds at the end.Lewis definitely would have passed the cars if they were driving 'normal' ..

comon.. how come williams and bmw were matching for speed each lap of mclaren 'just in this race' ..??? you tell me they have done 'lots' of work to beat mclaren..i dont believe so.

the way Kubica drove behind Alonso & overtaken him suggested that its not his lighter fuel load happened to be too faster than the mclaren.

I say the cold fuel conspiracy indeed made a difference, while max,fia,benie & the rest's were too worried and looked on at mclaren of favorism the bmw & williams boys got an advantage, knowingly that max,benie,fia wont really see what they do

Do you really think that 3° C of fuel temperature made a difference of 11 seconds?

And as to Kubica passing Alonso - well, could it have been Kubica's three stop strategy that made him way lighter at that point than two-stopping Alonso?

McLaren should not try to win in the courtroom a championship that they lost on track.

I wonder what Mercedes have to say about all of this as I very much doubt they would be happy to win a championship this way.

[wmcot]

wmcot.. yes the time difference was just over 11 seconds at the end.Lewis definitely would have passed the cars if they were driving 'normal' ..

He also would have passed them if he hadn't driven off-track (lucky there was paved run-off, not gravel like China) or if his McLaren hadn't had technical problems. Perhaps the FIA should investigate McLaren quality control as Lewis's car was the main cause for him to lose the championship!

It's pretty pathetic to hear the blind McLaren fans go on with their "he would have won if...but...maybe...perhaps...if only..."

Face it! Lewis lost the championship ON THE TRACK, not once, but in TWO races. Perhaps RD should have appealed the loss in China since the gravel was too deep!

[Ranger]

McLaren should not try to win in the courtroom a championship that they lost on track.

But that's what Ferrari did!

Sorry, had to play devil's advocate :devil:

[wmcot]

But that's what Ferrari did!

Sorry, had to play devil's advocate :devil:

Actually Ferrari's championship chances weren't (potentially) lost, but stolen...there's a big difference!

[ioan]

Hamilton lost the title because he was too hot headed, because the car had an electronic problem and because the team chose the wrong strategy for him.

Honestly Hamilton had no chance to beat the BMWs and the Williams yesterday.
Ferrari has seen to that by getting Kmi and Felipe between Hamilton and the ones he was chassing. Finally they've got their strategy right when it mattered.

[ioan]

But that's what Ferrari did!

Sorry, had to play devil's advocate :devil:

No they didn't.
Ferrari's appeal never became reality!

It was the FIA who decided that there was enough proof to further inciminate McLaren.

[TL]

Now who's still thinking here on the forum FIA wanted to have LH win the WCD ? as it seems now he might have lossed the championship due to illegal cars driving in front of him..and FIA allows it...they even admit the fuel was not ok !

..Again...Only the FIA can be blamed for making it the mess it has been this season...Not the teams...It's about time they come up with a new rulesbook during the winter..with 100% clear rules so there can't be any discussions and maybe some new people on the top too !

[wmcot]

Assignment to Ron Dennis (and his blind followers):

Look up the phrase, "Gracious in defeat."

Next, submit a 1000 word paper on the benefit of how applying that phrase to your lives might make people look upon you more favorably. Be sure to contrast the meaning of the phrase with things such as mass-dampers, flexible floors, and fuel temperatures.

[leopard]

an interesting Motorsport phase...

[Ranger]

Actually Ferrari's championship chances weren't (potentially) lost, but stolen...there's a big difference!

True, but then again, BMW and Williams were running illegal cars for Brazil, and McLaren, like Ferrari after the first Stepneygate court case (less so after the second one), should rightly feel aggreived because their rivals are getting away with a clearly defined rule breach, which is hindering their title hopes.

Having said that I'm quite happy for everyone to forget about it. IMO 2007 has a great champion through its tumultuous off-track shenanigans and controversies. Personally I'm looking towards 2008 already. :up:

[markabilly]

Hamilton lost the title because he was too hot headed, because the car had an electronic problem and because the team chose the wrong strategy for him.

Honestly Hamilton had no chance to beat the BMWs and the Williams yesterday.
Ferrari has seen to that by getting Kmi and Felipe between Hamilton and the ones he was chassing. Finally they've got their strategy right when it mattered.
Actually i read somewhere the car had a "neutral problem"--sorry forget where...sounds like he may have got the thing in the wrong gear, did not want to stall, tried neutral or whatever trying to find the right gear...once he did, then he ran pretty good.esp. at the end...but not nearly as spectacular as MS last race there....

[electron]

It's about time they come up with a new rulesbook during the winter..with 100% clear rules so there can't be any discussions and maybe some new people on the top too !

they need no new rule book but enforce the existing ones. it says freaking ten degrees, not 11, not 12, not 14 or whatever but 10!

Instead of issuing penalties on things that may have been they should focus on proof and fact. This whole mess indeed is FIAs fault.
No one can be sure of anything anymore. This leads to apeal and courtaction and endless discussion because everybody can hope to win a case these days even if there is no fact or get awy with stuff even when there is fact. stop this courtyard bulls**. Maybe there are too much lawyers in FIA.

the teams are not to blame (and even less the drivers) for playing this game the FIA set up themselfes.

[Daniel]

Assignment to Ron Dennis (and his blind followers):

Look up the phrase, "Gracious in defeat."

Next, submit a 1000 word paper on the benefit of how applying that phrase to your lives might make people look upon you more favorably. Be sure to contrast the meaning of the phrase with things such as mass-dampers, flexible floors, and fuel temperatures.
Certainly. He should be grateful his drivers were still able to race after the court appearance. What is it with some English people accepting that Hamilton and the English Rugby team didn't win. First it was the Australian video ref and now it's Germans! Always with the Germans! :p Be happy that you were up there at the end with a chance of winning rather than being in the same position as Button and Rubens.

[ioan]

Actually i read somewhere the car had a "neutral problem"--sorry forget where...sounds like he may have got the thing in the wrong gear, did not want to stall, tried neutral or whatever trying to find the right gear...once he did, then he ran pretty good.esp. at the end...but not nearly as spectacular as MS last race there....

Don't even try comparing Hamilton to MS, that would be blasphemy. :mad:

[ioan]

Someone should do the calculations about how much it benefited the BMW's and the Williams this 2-4 C cooler fuel.
Take into account that it took the fuel at max.2 or 3 minutes to get to the legal temperature, that means 2 laps, where they might have got a fw tenths advantage over LH.
Impose a time penalty on them.

To make it even I would like BMW and Williams to contest the outcome of Fridays decision about Hamilton using to many sets of tires and impose a time penalty on him too.

Or maybe should all the teams appeal the outcome of the spying hearing and get McLaren thrown out together with their drivers, as rules say that it should be.

And while we are at it ban Bernie from the WMSC cause he clearly has nothing to do with the sporting side of the sport. :mad:

[Daniel]

Someone should do the calculations about how much it benefited the BMW's and the Williams this 2-4 C cooler fuel.
Take into account that it took the fuel at max.2 or 3 minutes to get to the legal temperature, that means 2 laps, where they might have got a fw tenths advantage over LH.
Impose a time penalty on them.

To make it even I would like BMW and Williams to contest the outcome of Fridays decision about Hamilton using to many sets of tires and impose a time penalty on him too.

Or maybe should all the teams appeal the outcome of the spying hearing and get McLaren thrown out together with their drivers, as rules say that it should be.

And while we are at it ban Bernie from the WMSC cause he clearly has nothing to do with the sporting side of the sport. :mad:
Quite true. Hamilton broke the rules and got away with a fine so why not a fine for the cars with cool fuel? :p Stupid rule though. Let them cool the fuel all they want. One less thing to regulate.

[TL]

Don't even try comparing Hamilton to MS, that would be blasphemy. :mad:

ya maybe a little to early..Give him a couple more years...don't think you will use the word "blasphemy" anymore than ioan...

At least one thing he already showed in comparisson to MS when it comes to deciding a championship in the last race...sportsmansship.....don't saw him make any attempts to run his rivals of the track....

[ioan]

ya maybe a little to early..Give him a couple more years...don't think you will use the word "blasphemy" anymore than ioan...

At least one thing he already showed in comparisson to MS when it comes to deciding a championship in the last race...sportsmansship.....don't saw him make any attempts to run his rivals of the track....

You can't run them of track when you aren't on the track or anywhere close to them! :p :

Just remembered him in front of Kimi during qualifying! :D

[Hawkmoon]

they need no new rule book but enforce the existing ones. it says freaking ten degrees, not 11, not 12, not 14 or whatever but 10!

A couple of things.

Firstly, the FIA and the race Stewards are NOT the same. The Stewards are independent of the FIA. Take a look at the events of the 2005 San Marino GP where the FIA appealed the decision of the Stewards. If the Stewards were under the control of the FIA, the FIA would simply overturn their decisions without the need to go to the FIA.

Secondly, the issue is not whether the fuel was over the 10 degree limit, but rather how accurate the taken measurements were. Clouding the issue is that there appeared to be a discrepancy between the FOM temperature reading and that of the FIA appointed weatherman. The regulations do not state which temperature is the only one to be used, further clouding the issue.

The stewards made the only decision they could with the data they had. If it was as black and white as you suggest, BMW and Williams would be gone already. It isn't, just like a lot of things in F1.

[slinkster]

I was expecting something like this to come out afterwards...!!!

Although I'm still gutted for Hamilton, I don't think he'll want to accept the championship title this way and I would feel sorry for Kimi too. I don't think anything will come of this latest rule fiasco. However, Ferrari can't complain about people breaching rules and then whine when other people being prosecuted results in them losing out!

Someone needs to sort out these rules. There's either far faaar too many grey areas or the teams simply don't respect the system enough (and that's not all that suprising considering the inconsistencies of the FIA rulings). Both aspects need to be sorted to prevent the problems of this season affecting the next.

[Daniel]

I was expecting something like this to come out afterwards...!!!

Although I'm still gutted for Hamilton, I don't think he'll want to accept the championship title this way and I would feel sorry for Kimi too. I don't think anything will come of this latest rule fiasco. However, Ferrari can't complain about people breaching rules and then whine when other people being prosecuted results in them losing out!

Someone needs to sort out these rules. There's either far faaar too many grey areas or the teams simply don't respect the system enough (and that's not all that suprising considering the inconsistencies of the FIA rulings). Both aspects need to be sorted to prevent the problems of this season affecting the next.
The stewards decision not to penalise the teams for having fuel that's too cool will be down to the fact that it's not exactly easy to regulate the temperature of a liquid on a hot day. Why have such a silly rule? Why not let the teams chill the fuel to whatever temperature they want? Then they'll all be "cheating" equally.

[F1boat]

I have a question. I know that McLaren have informed FIA that they would appeal. Have they appealed yet?
I'm asking because after they were banned from 2007 WCC, Haug said that they would appeal, but did not.

[markabilly]

Don't even try comparing Hamilton to MS, that would be blasphemy. :mad:


Apologies are offered.

I have sinned and will go lash myself 1,000 times...not my fault, though I did violate the rules, and will also fine myself 22k.... :D

I just got to reading how hamilton was saying it was his best race, how he is going to win WDC next year, stuff from RD about how the gearbox problem was not Hamilton's fault and the pre-race stuff about how he was born to win and so forth....in the process, I accidentally took a sip of kool aid reserved for the Mac crew and benie...and before i knew it...I was hollerring Appeal, Appeal, Benie will "campaign" Max for its success.....then i made the post....

(However, the effects of the kool aid must be wearing off, as I am beginning to wonder how that glitch occurred, when it did and wonder if OUR MAN, THE ONE TRUE HOPE and PROTECTOR OF ENGLISH VIRGINITY stuck it in the wrong gear or what??--opps, I guess I better drink some coffee until the kool aid is all gone from my body....... :eek: )

[AndyRAC]

An absolute joke, you couldn't make it up, ( well actually you could). I've completely lost faith in the sport and F1A. As much as I wanted Hamilton to win it, this isn't the way, however there are precedents. Remember 1986 WRC and Markku Alen was champion for about 10-12 days, then San Remo results were anulled. I just hope the F1A become more transparent regarding rules and consistent with the applying of them. At the moment there are different penalties all seemingly on a whim; team, drivers, fines, etc; Nobody knows were they stand, a mess.

[airshifter]

Secondly, the issue is not whether the fuel was over the 10 degree limit, but rather how accurate the taken measurements were. Clouding the issue is that there appeared to be a discrepancy between the FOM temperature reading and that of the FIA appointed weatherman. The regulations do not state which temperature is the only one to be used, further clouding the issue.



This alone should stop any appeal. With such a loosely written regulation it's obvious there are going to be discrepancies.

Aren't the fueling rigs regulated and controlled by the FIA? I would think that they would simply supply a standard cooler with appropriate temperature monitoring devices. Done properly they could easily make sure all cars run fuel at the same temp all the time.

[Daniel]

An absolute joke, you couldn't make it up, ( well actually you could). I've completely lost faith in the sport and F1A. As much as I wanted Hamilton to win it, this isn't the way, however there are precedents. Remember 1986 WRC and Markku Alen was champion for about 10-12 days, then San Remo results were anulled. I just hope the F1A become more transparent regarding rules and consistent with the applying of them. At the moment there are different penalties all seemingly on a whim; team, drivers, fines, etc; Nobody knows were they stand, a mess.
It won't happen. The results will stand as is.

[markabilly]

It won't happen. The results will stand as is.

Well, you would think...but with the FIA ,Max and Benie...

I would think it would be crazy, but then they did appoint the scrutineers.....but if they stop and think from the money point of view, they will have completely screwed themselves for at least a year or two, and leaving no doubts about what is really the goal of the "leaders"...

And hey if 22k was okay for RD for the use of the tires, then 22k per car ought to be okay for RD as well on the fuel...so I say put the money on the table, and let us go home.

[AndyRAC]

It won't happen. The results will stand as is.

I fully expect it to stand, my problem is with the handing out of penalties, and how they decide on the severity. It seems to be arbitury, no consistentcy. Surely the time has come to re write the penalties and punishments. Say BMW and Williams had been thrown out team and drivers; what about the McLaren team being penalised but the drivers weren't, then on Friday McLaren are fined, no consistency, as if they are decided on a whim.

[BDunnell]

This appeal is utterly ridiculous. It ought to be thrown out straight away and not even discussed. The decision has been made and Raikkonen should be champion. If Hamilton hadn't made a mistake and then had a technical problem, this probably wouldn't even be an issue. It was an apparent bit of McLaren unreliability that cost Hamilton the title, so for the team to launch an appeal aimed at winning him the title now is pushing things much too far.

[ShiftingGears]

"It would be a joke, and we've had too many already," he told Spanish radio station Cadena Ser. "If something like that happened, it would end up burying the sport."

- Fernando Alonso

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63581

Very good point.

[Storm]

Why are they appealing? Does Hamilton want to win it in the court...idiotic.

Fact is, he made 2 big mistakes in the last 2 races to lose a 17 point lead and also had bad luck with gearbox (finally had to have had some bad luck) and Kimi (and Massa too ;) ) did a better job and won it.

[Daniel]

This appeal is utterly ridiculous. It ought to be thrown out straight away and not even discussed. The decision has been made and Raikkonen should be champion. If Hamilton hadn't made a mistake and then had a technical problem, this probably wouldn't even be an issue. It was an apparent bit of McLaren unreliability that cost Hamilton the title, so for the team to launch an appeal aimed at winning him the title now is pushing things much too far.
Especially considering the fact that they are lucky to still be fielding cars in the 07 and 08 seasons.

[BDunnell]

Especially considering the fact that they are lucky to still be fielding cars in the 07 and 08 seasons.

Quite, although that was as a result of a similarly arbitrary decision that didn't go their way. Now they want another one to go in their favour. Not the best move.

[SparkyKate]

True, but then again, BMW and Williams were running illegal cars for Brazil, and McLaren, like Ferrari after the first Stepneygate court case (less so after the second one), should rightly feel aggreived because their rivals are getting away with a clearly defined rule breach, which is hindering their title hopes. :up:

Erm... excuse me if im wrong, but didnt Hamilton also have a tyre 'problem' that massively helped him, but was treated with only a 15k fine? I believe that is what u call a double standard.

[tinchote]

Erm... excuse me if im wrong, but didnt Hamilton also have a tyre 'problem' that massively helped him, but was treated with only a 15k fine? I believe that is what u call a double standard.

Many of us have know that for a long time: double standard = Ron Dennis.

[ClarkFan]

OK, let's make it fair for all - DQ Heidfeld, Kubica, and Rosberg for low fuel temps and then DQ Alonso and Hamilton for the use of Ferrari data. Finally DQ Ron Dennis as being a human and then DQ Bernie and Max as being insane. That should take care of this season!

Well, that would clear the debris from the site and leave the possibility of building something new in the future! :s

ClarkFan

[ClarkFan]

wmcot.. yes the time difference was just over 11 seconds at the end.Lewis definitely would have passed the cars if they were driving 'normal' ..


Don't get overexcited about the advantage that 2-4 degrees brings (remember, they are allowed 10). Gascoyne was quoted as citing 5 horsepower, pretty much nothing against a 750 HP baseline for a F1 engine. If you found a way to add 5 hp to your street car (against a far lower baseline), you wouldn't feel the difference in acceleration and even a stopwatch would be hard pressed to distinguish the difference.

If the fuel temps made a difference of 0.5 seconds a lap I would be surprised; 0.2 sec would be more like it.

ClarkFan

[Josti]

McLaren should just forget this season and move on. These appeals have no sence, and only make McLaren more desperate. Like FIA takes such a decision back. No way!

[tinchote]

Don't get overexcited about the advantage that 2-4 degrees brings (remember, they are allowed 10). Gascoyne was quoted as citing 5 horsepower, pretty much nothing against a 750 HP baseline for a F1 engine. If you found a way to add 5 hp to your street car (against a far lower baseline), you wouldn't feel the difference in acceleration and even a stopwatch would be hard pressed to distinguish the difference.

If the fuel temps made a difference of 0.5 seconds a lap I would be surprised; 0.2 sec would be more like it.

ClarkFan

And the difference would only be for the time that it takes the fuel to reach ambient temperature. I don't think that could have been many laps. The rest of the car was at 40+ degrees (in its coolest parts) and had a mass of about 550kg compared with the fuel's 80 or less.

[ioan]

(However, the effects of the kool aid must be wearing off, as I am beginning to wonder how that glitch occurred, when it did and wonder if OUR MAN, THE ONE TRUE HOPE and PROTECTOR OF ENGLISH VIRGINITY stuck it in the wrong gear or what??--opps, I guess I better drink some coffee until the kool aid is all gone from my body....... :eek: )

That's what happens when one thinks he has 2 right hands when reality is that one of them is however the left hand! ;)

[Bagwan]

Speculation is that it would be starting at 5Hp diminishing to nothing over 5 or so laps after refuelling , perhaps at best , a .2 advantage to start , so it wouldn't amount to as much as a second each time . It might gain you 2.5 seconds in the race , on a 3 stopper .
Being that it was frighteningly hot , and that much was said about how much the darker colour of the asphalt laid in August of this year was affecting the heat , I am not surprised about how temperatures between officials varied , and how they came to dismiss this as not being a breach , in the conditions .

A few years ago , at Interlagos , didn't Coulthard get away with a too thin skid plate , as it was shown on camera that he rode over those awful bumps up the hill more often than some ?
An on-camera scrape over the curbing has saved a few penalties over the years , showing there was no intent to run too low , but rather a "force majeure" as cause for a technical breach .

Here , we not only have discrepancies in official readings , but also a temperature that was rising in the sun , and likely rising slower in the shade of the garage .
It would be interesting to see how close others came to the magic 10 degrees below ambient . We might find all of them pretty close to the line . In fact , I would expect it .

A breach , yes , but one that remains a bit foggy , if one dosen't have a corroborating reading on another gauge .

So , if 4 or so degrees could gain you 2.5 seconds , in which an F1 car can travel a heck of a distance , would that distance or time be enough to try it ?

[msaxman]

Yes but drivers get to keep their points that seems to be the rule of the year... :dozey:

Alonso kept his points because he sold out his team. Hamilton isn't in the position to do that.

[msaxman]

Don't get overexcited about the advantage that 2-4 degrees brings (remember, they are allowed 10). Gascoyne was quoted as citing 5 horsepower, pretty much nothing against a 750 HP baseline for a F1 engine. If you found a way to add 5 hp to your street car (against a far lower baseline), you wouldn't feel the difference in acceleration and even a stopwatch would be hard pressed to distinguish the difference.

If the fuel temps made a difference of 0.5 seconds a lap I would be surprised; 0.2 sec would be more like it.

ClarkFan

do you realize what any of the teams would pay to gain 5 hp today, with the engine homologation?

it is NOT nothing.

[wmcot]

When the rule regarding fuel temperature was written, it was to stop teams from reducing the fuel to below 32F (0C) and enabling them to cram more fuel into the tank since it's volume was decreased. I don't think the creators of the rule had a 3C or 4C temperature in mind on a 35C day!

I'm not sure you would want the fuel to be sitting around in uninsulated rigs when the air temp is 35C. The rigs sitting in the sun would surely rise well above that and the fuel in them would expand and vaporize causing a massive safety hazard.

Don't all the teams use FIA approved fuel rigs? Aren't these constructed according to FIA rules and specs? I doubt any team has a tank of liquid nitrogen attached to cool the rig!

On a common sense side, if one team is at an end of the pit with their rig in the sun, and another is at a place where it is in the shade, wouldn't the fuel temps vary quite a bit between the two? On any given day, a fuel rig in a shaded area could be 10C (or more) cooler than one in the sun unless the temps are regulated.

Ron is like a desperate man hanging onto a cliff by his fingernails. He is certainly not winning any fans this year. I wouldn't be surprised to see his sponsors pull out due to his unsporting attitude! Talk about bringing the sport into disrepute! I can only feel sorry for Bruce McLaren who must be breaking the 19000 rpm rule in his grave as the company that carries his name is becoming an embarrassment!

[F1MAN2007]

In my point of view, Maclaren is appealing just to divert contreversies away while they should answer the reason why Lewis did have 3 stops. I think, Mac has done another huge mistake in strategy which would have hammered the situation.

[F1boat]

do you realize what any of the teams would pay to gain 5 hp today, with the engine homologation?

it is NOT nothing.

It is for 3 laps. A second adbantage for the whole distance.

[wmcot]

do you realize what any of the teams would pay to gain 5 hp today, with the engine homologation?

it is NOT nothing.

But Lewis is reported to have had 10 extra HP due to his new engine and that was for the full weekend, NOT just a few laps! Shouldn't he still have been able to overtake easily (if only he hadn't made a driver error, if only he hadn't had technical problems (or pushed the wrong button?), if only he hadn't slid off the pit entrance in China, if only..., if only..., if only...)

[Crypt]

Nothing will come of this. It's just sad really.

[jens]

A bizarre end to a bizarre season. Whatever happens, everything will go into the courts...

[grantb4]

It's like 1994 and '95 all over again, except then there weren't internet forums on which people could vent their conspiracy theories and have their prejudices backed up by others.

That's not true. Rec.autos.sport(.f1) was around in the 80's. I remember reading is with a DECwriter terminal. Even Google has it back as far as 1992.

[BDunnell]

That's not true. Rec.autos.sport(.f1) was around in the 80's. I remember reading is with a DECwriter terminal. Even Google has it back as far as 1992.

I suspect the popularity of today's forums is rather higher. Interesting, though!

[GP-M3]

The hypocrisy is deafening.... While Mac was disqualified for cheating with the complete Ferrari team manual and plans... their drivers did not lose any points. Sounds impossible, but as we all know, true...

NowMac, with an incredible lack of class, now want to find out how those other teams can not be punished over this.

First off, was their really an infraction... at first they said yes, but then they said it was insufficient evidence. So NO there was no infraction.

The only real problem right now is Bernie. He was cleary for Hamilton to win, even disparaging the current wdc, and Kimi before the last race, and promoting LH. Bernie hasn't given a statement yet (that I've read) to congratulate Kimi and Ferrari... so is Bernie behind the scenes manipultating his way to get the teflon boy the championship.

When Bernie checks in to congratulate Kimi, I'll stop worrying.

[wmcot]

A bizarre end to a bizarre season. Whatever happens, everything will go into the courts...

I'm starting to fear that this is the way all seasons will go from now on! :(

[F1boat]

Both Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso said that they want Kimi to stay champion. I think that it will be an enormous damage to sport, to Kimi and to Lewis himself, if he is gifted the championship. And because everything is for the drivers, I think that McLaren should accept the results.

[wmcot]

Both Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso said that they want Kimi to stay champion. I think that it will be an enormous damage to sport, to Kimi and to Lewis himself, if he is gifted the championship. And because everything is for the drivers, I think that McLaren should accept the results.

Totally agree! It's time to move on to next year. Kimi earned his championship on the track, not in the courts!

[mstillhere]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63547

I hear that it was RD to share with the stewarts what was going on with the gas temperature in those cars. Do you guys know anything about it? Is RD spying on everybody?

[mstillhere]

You gotta be kidding. F1 is probably one of the sports where most regulations are issued and tested. And there are lots of things that are tested at every session of every race.

So, if these regulations are deemed so clear, why is it the McLaren is confused about the stewarts decision in not penalizing anybody? Why was Ferrari so confused after the first trial when the FIA found McLaren guilty but not punishable, making the whole world buffle? Why is Alonso screaming that there is no fault amd his team says "yes there is?" Why was Ferrari legally racing at the Australian GP but two week later it was illegal? Why, last year, was Renault legally racing with those "things" (mass damps??) in the nose of their cars and almost a year later the same device was deemed illegal? Should I continue? Why are we always writing thousands of messages, spinning around, clouless, everybody saying his/her thing about the incident all waiting for "the decision" of the FIA all mighty? These guys have been around a long time. They have a huge experience. I don't believe in oversight, anymore. They cannot have real rules. Guidelines, as I said before, is the right word, so that you can interpret them. Oh...please.... I am so fed up!!

[hmmm - donuts]

[quote="GP-M3"]

The only real problem right now is Bernie. He was cleary for Hamilton to win, even disparaging the current wdc, and Kimi before the last race, and promoting LH. QUOTE]

I don't think that someone in BE's position should be showing favourtism. OK, I know that he may prefer one driver over another for the WDC, and feel that one is more to his liking as an ambassador for F1, but I don't feel it helps for him to say this publicly.

[Perdita_X]

I agree Donuts...maybe Bernie is just making the balance a little more even, given Mr Moseleys penchant for Ferrari! hee hee!!

[tinchote]

That's not true. Rec.autos.sport(.f1) was around in the 80's. I remember reading is with a DECwriter terminal. Even Google has it back as far as 1992.


Not really. It started in 96. In 92, the internet was almost completely academic, and mostly for email, and eventually gopher. I'm not even sure if Mosaic had already been written back then.

[tinchote]

So, if these regulations are deemed so clear, why is it the McLaren is confused about the stewarts decision in not penalizing anybody? Why was Ferrari so confused after the first trial when the FIA found McLaren guilty but not punishable, making the whole world buffle? Why is Alonso screaming that there is no fault amd his team says "yes there is?" Why was Ferrari legally racing at the Australian GP but two week later it was illegal? Why, last year, was Renault legally racing with those "things" (mass damps??) in the nose of their cars and almost a year later the same device was deemed illegal? Should I continue? Why are we always writing thousands of messages, spinning around, clouless, everybody saying his/her thing about the incident all waiting for "the decision" of the FIA all mighty? These guys have been around a long time. They have a huge experience. I don't believe in oversight, anymore. They cannot have real rules. Guidelines, as I said before, is the right word, so that you can interpret them. Oh...please.... I am so fed up!!

So, they don't have rules... You gotta be kidding.

Of course some rules have loopholes. Of course some rules require clarification.

Just one question: you complain a lot about this. Have you ever tried to read the regulations? Both the technical and the sporting ones?

[nikc]

Raikkonen won the title. The bad luck years are ending. The dark cloud disappears. Things are gonna change to the better now. be optimistic.

The problem is some usual-really-pathetic-people who have had their head down in the hole, because of their own inspirations, because of their own persona.

They want the others that try and survive down in the hole with them. Regardless if they haven't done anything that deserves them the hole, or have...

They can't stand the other guy winning.

They want everybody to feel miserable, just like they do.

In this case, the usual-really-pathetic-people are turning against the final verdict of the season, not the targets they name.

They target at the people who get happy with Raikkonen champion, who have withstood all these years of silent and stoic awaiting and now can breathe.

They want to poison their relief.

Their present target consists of two subjects:
1)Raikkonen, who has been the definite opposite of off-the-race-colleague-or-rival-backstabbing
2)Ferrari, who have their dirty hands mixed in whatever mind can think of

This controversy is their weapon:
They want to establish DISBELIEF.

They want to drag down in the hole Ferrari, Raikkonen, Formula1 (again) and themselves (again and again)

I hope this won't happen.

Beware

P.S.: WARNING: this kind of people survives under ANY circumstances

[spiritone]

Why is it when anyone critisizes ferrari the ferrari fans can't handle it. They seem to think their's a separate set of rules for ferrari, (which if you go by the decisions of max there is) There is no doubt that if mclaren had won the championship and their fuel was found to be to cold they would be disqualified immediately.

[wmcot]

Why is it when anyone critisizes ferrari the ferrari fans can't handle it.

Funny, I thought most people on this thread were criticizing McLaren (specifically Ron Dennis) and it's the McLaren fans who can't handle it!



There is no doubt that if mclaren had won the championship and their fuel was found to be to cold they would be disqualified immediately.

That might have had something to do with the fact that they were already found guilty of espionage (OK, breaking rule 151C if you want to call it that) and were only barely allowed to continue the season (and next) by the good graces of the FIA! I'm surprised they were allowed to get away with breaking the rule on rain tires used in practice!

[spiritone]

Didn't ferrari run illegal in australia and get away with it, isn't their wheel covers an areo device (but of course it ferrari so its legal).How do you know that the people that they have hired from mclaren didn't bring info to them.

Somehow ferrari fans always think that their team is so squecky clean and would never stoop to underhanded methods. Wise up, this is f1 and i doubt if there is a team out there that isn't using everything at their disposal to get whatever info they can.

[tinchote]

Didn't ferrari run illegal in australia and get away with it, isn't their wheel covers an areo device (but of course it ferrari so its legal).How do you know that the people that they have hired from mclaren didn't bring info to them.

Somehow ferrari fans always think that their team is so squecky clean and would never stoop to underhanded methods. Wise up, this is f1 and i doubt if there is a team out there that isn't using everything at their disposal to get whatever info they can.

Man, if you are going to specialize in Ferrari bashing, you arrive into the forums a few years too late :rolleyes:

[mstillhere]

Why is it when anyone critisizes ferrari the ferrari fans can't handle it. They seem to think their's a separate set of rules for ferrari, (which if you go by the decisions of max there is) There is no doubt that if mclaren had won the championship and their fuel was found to be to cold they would be disqualified immediately.

Based on we have seen lately, I think that rather than disqualify them, they'll pay a fine, something like, I don't know...$15,000 dollars????? :)
McLaren drivers disqualified....don't you know why now F1 fans call LH Golden Boy? Rules don't apply to him.

[wmcot]

....don't you know why now F1 fans call LH Golden Boy? Rules don't apply to him.

Actually it would be more appropriate to call him the "Chosen One."

[electron]

if he is like some say "chosen one", here is a chance to "choose" him.
If they don't that practically proofes all those "LH get unfair advantage" whiners wrong. JIMO

I want to see a fine handed out since there is a violation of rules. I do not demand DQing the drivers. If they hand out pointsdeduction and/or money fine just against the teams or just anything reasonable I will be fine with it. But I will not be fine with just letting this go.

[wmcot]

Didn't ferrari run illegal in australia and get away with it,

No. The rules were changed before Malaysia so the floor was perfectly legal and passed scrutineering in Australia.


isn't their wheel covers an areo device

No. They have been approved by the FIA officials and are on other cars like Renault at the moment.


How do you know that the people that they have hired from mclaren didn't bring info to them.

Because Ron Dennis would be all over them in an instant if he had the slightest hint of wrongdoing.



Somehow ferrari fans always think that their team is so squecky clean and would never stoop to underhanded methods. Wise up, this is f1 and i doubt if there is a team out there that isn't using everything at their disposal to get whatever info they can.

I never claimed that Ferrari were "squeaky clean." All teams push the rules in their design, but not all teams have (an illegally obtained) 780 pages of their opponents data and countless emails and text messages telling them about pit strategies and helping them run simulator set-ups in order to understand their opponents' cars.

McLaren fans need to stop playing the victims, suck it up, and move on to next year!

[wmcot]

I want to see a fine handed out since there is a violation of rules. I do not demand DQing the drivers. If they hand out pointsdeduction and/or money fine just against the teams or just anything reasonable I will be fine with it. But I will not be fine with just letting this go.

That's the most reasonable post I have read so far! Yes, they (Williams and BMW) should probably be fined in the same way that McLaren were fined for the rain-tire fiasco. Perhaps even constructors' points for Brazil should be taken away. Anything more than that would be manipulating the championship.

[ioan]

Somehow ferrari fans always think that their team is so squecky clean and would never stoop to underhanded methods.

Ferrari fans this, Ferrari fans that! What about McLaren fans then?!


Wise up, this is f1 and i doubt if there is a team out there that isn't using everything at their disposal to get whatever info they can.

And why are you doing this whole circus then? Surely every fan of a team will be biased towards their favorites.

The difference lies however in being able to tell and accept when your favorites aren't up to the job or they did something wrong. There are very few that are able to do that every time, and I'm not one of them either.

[ArrowsFA1]

While I agree with those, including the McLaren drivers, who have said it would not be a good way for Hamilton to win the championship should Williams & BMW be excluded, the fact remains if those teams broke a rule, or were deliberately seeking to gain an illegal advantage, then they should be penalised.

If this had arisen in middle of the season it wouldn't have been an issue. Just because it is the championship deciding last race of the season the rules, and any punishment, should be applied in exactly the same way.

One of the problems is that the FIA have no fixed penalties. They can apply whatever penalty they wish, and that leaves them open to the accusation of manipulation.

Max will not want McLaren picking up a title at the FIA awards ceremony so if any penalty is applied to Williams & BMW you can be sure Hamilton will not gain any points as a result.

[ioan]

Let's just say that this season EVERYONE got their share of help from the FIA, some more ans some less.

Back to the fuel debate.

McLaren was found guilty of cheating and excluded from the championship but drivers were allowed to keep their points and continue to fight for the WDC.

Hamilton was put back on track by a crane when rules clearly stated that cranes can only be used to remove stricken cars that abandoned.

SC rules were relaxed after the same drivers shenanigans in poor weather conditions led to an accident.

More sets of wet tires were used in FP1 in Brazil, team got fined and driver got away clean.

Disrupted KR's qualifying twice yet the stewards said to Ferrari there is no use to question it! (keep in mind that others lost places on the grid for similar actions)

So what are McLaren and RD expecting from the FIA, again, in this fuel related problem.

Fine the teams?

Disqualify the BMW and Williams cars and take away all their points or only the constructor points?

They are clearly not in a position to ask for drivers to be disqualified, not without questioning their own drivers situation.

[ArrowsFA1]

So what are McLaren and RD expecting from the FIA, again, in this fuel related problem.
The FIA said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63557) that the BMW & Williams cars were outside the regulations during the Brazilian GP. Any team has the right to expect the FIA to apply their regulations.

[SteveA]

How about - If they must take away the drivers points for the race, DON'T adjust the others, so Kimi keeps his WDC.

[Daniel]

The FIA said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63557) that the BMW & Williams cars were outside the regulations during the Brazilian GP. Any team has the right to expect the FIA to apply their regulations.
So a fine will do? ;)

[janneppi]

They are clearly not in a position to ask for drivers to be disqualified, not without questioning their own drivers situation.
How's so? The previous issues have absolutely nothing to do with the fuel issue.

[F1boat]

So a fine will do? ;)

A fine will be the best solution. But I think that Ron will cancel his appeal and miraculously his fine will become smaller.

[Daniel]

How's so? The previous issues have absolutely nothing to do with the fuel issue.
Yes but spygate is more serious and Lewis also did a boo-boo in free practice as well ;)

[Caroline]

How's so? The previous issues have absolutely nothing to do with the fuel issue.

Absolutely. When do you stop trawling back? After 1 race, 10 races, 5 seasons? The irregularities were in this race, so this race should be examined only. I hope the FIA put this to bed. We have a new world champion and if that is to change ( I sincerely hope not) let it be done swiftly.

[Valve Bounce]

if he is like some say "chosen one", here is a chance to "choose" him.
If they don't that practically proofes all those "LH get unfair advantage" whiners wrong. JIMO

I want to see a fine handed out since there is a violation of rules. I do not demand DQing the drivers. If they hand out pointsdeduction and/or money fine just against the teams or just anything reasonable I will be fine with it. But I will not be fine with just letting this go.


How about a 10 place grid penalty for both teams in their next race? That sounds fair!!

[ioan]

So they actually appealed the stewards decision:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63593

Now I'm waiting for J. Stewart to come up with some more bull$hit directed to the FIA and Max. :rolleyes:

[Valve Bounce]

How's so? The previous issues have absolutely nothing to do with the fuel issue.

There is an issue here: the team was penalised but the drivers were not; I think that set a precedent.

[ioan]

Yes but spygate is more serious and Lewis also did a boo-boo in free practice as well ;)

Yeah, but that was in practice, and Lewis blocking Kimi during his hot laps was in qualifying. Nothing to do with the last race! :D

[ioan]

There is an issue here: the team was penalised but the drivers were not; I think that set a precedent.

Yeah but that doesn't count because it helped Hamilton, while this one is different cause it didn't help him.
At least that's the McLaren logic.

[ioan]

Absolutely. When do you stop trawling back? After 1 race, 10 races, 5 seasons? The irregularities were in this race, so this race should be examined only. I hope the FIA put this to bed. We have a new world champion and if that is to change ( I sincerely hope not) let it be done swiftly.

People should never stop trawling back as long as it is done for JUSTICE!

[janneppi]

ioan, are you seriously suggesting that FIA should ignore McLaren's appeal on the grounds they didn't punish Hamilton earlier for completely different issues?

[Daniel]

ioan, are you seriously suggesting that FIA should ignore McLaren's appeal on the grounds they didn't punish Hamilton earlier for completely different issues?
Yes but Hamilton could have got an advantage. Why should the fine for the BMW and Williams drivers be any heavier. There's a difference between fuel that's slightly too cold and using a set of tyres too many ;)

[janneppi]

Daniel, the severity of possible punishments should in no way be affected by what other teams have gotten for completely different matters.

[ArrowsFA1]

ioan, are you seriously suggesting that FIA should ignore McLaren's appeal on the grounds they didn't punish Hamilton earlier for completely different issues?
The issue is the application of the rules by the FIA. The fault for inconsistency, if there is any, rests with the FIA not any team.

[ioan]

ioan, are you seriously suggesting that FIA should ignore McLaren's appeal on the grounds they didn't punish Hamilton earlier for completely different issues?

All I'm suggesting is that they shouldn't expect the other drivers to be punished when their driver escaped punishment 2x during the last week end, one for a technical issue (like the fuel temps) and one of his own making (he interfered with Kimi's qualifying laps twice while he was on his outlaps).

So? :p :

[Daniel]

Daniel, the severity of possible punishments should in no way be affected by what other teams have gotten for completely different matters.
On the contrary it should! The penalties for deliberate infringements should always be harsh, Ones where it's a grey area shouldn't be too harsh but should send a message to be more careful and when it's clear that it was an accident or not intentional then the penalty should be minimal if indeed there should even be one.