Is It Cos I iz Black?

[Hazell B]

Couple of weekends ago I caught a young man using the lane behind my house as a toilet. His mate was up to no good too, so after calling the police I confronted the pair. Mr Urinal (identity changed to protect the guilty :p : ) said in his country it was perfectly fine to just pee while leaning on a Land Rover belonging to Hazell and I was simply a racist for daring to complain :mark:

Of course, in his country they also produce 17 year old drunks with broad Bradford accents :rolleyes:

When I asked him to drop the "is it 'cos I iz black?" routine he said sorry, gave me a hug and went on his way .... to a party two doors down. His real excuse wasn't cultural difference, it was that he had to put out his cigarette in my neighbour's house so couldn't be bothered going inside to the bathroom. I kid you not.

Yesterday a van was parked blocking my road exit, so I tracked down the driver to a Greek takeaway. Waving his clipboard in my face he did the old "I no understand. I no speak Eeeengleeesh. You get at me, Johnny Foreigner. I only there two minutes!" routine.

Pointing out the van was dry underneath yet it had been raining nearly an hour was met by "I no understand you" and more clipboard waving.

The clipboard's paperwork was in English and his handwritting was neat was met by a sudden rememberance of his Leeds upbringing and muttered appology in the local accent. He knew when he was nabbed, bless him :p :


Race hasn't ever been an issue for me. I just don't care where anyone comes from. However, I've had the race card unfairly pulled twice in ten days by people who're as English as I am. It's never happened before and I hope it doesn't happen again - it's ripping off those with true racial issues who frankly deserve better from their countrymates :down:

[Brown, Jon Brow]

As usual it's another controversial hot topic for your thread Hazell :p

Racial affairs is a political hot potato. Does anyone want to catch it... because it's burning my fingers.....

[BDunnell]

Race hasn't ever been an issue for me. I just don't care where anyone comes from. However, I've had the race card unfairly pulled twice in ten days by people who're as English as I am. It's never happened before and I hope it doesn't happen again - it's ripping off those with true racial issues who frankly deserve better from their countrymates :down:

I agree with that absolutely.

[Daniel]

I agree Hazell. I'm of South African blood so apparently more predisposed to being racist than most and quite frankly I don't care whether someone's skin is white, yellow, brown, black, green or purple I hate idiots equally no matter where they come from! I just simply don't care!

Racial discrimination (over and above a bit of friendly banter which I feel is OK) is just a sign of idiocy in the extreme.

[SOD]

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c74/theborderfox/ronn.jpg

[tinchote]

I think this a consequence of the current "extreme PC" situation. Rather sooner than later people will try and take advantage of it.

[MrJan]

Sounds to me like they were both just trying to pull a fast one by using any advantage they had. I think we've all tried something similar in our own way at one point or another. Just these two chose the wrong person to try and trick against a less savvy person they'd probably have made it stick.

[Hazell B]

Do you know what? I posted this thread crossing my fingers that it was just pure coincidence that I had two people try the race card on me in a few days, and that it isn't common.

Looks as if I was right. That's brought some trust in human nature back for me - thanks guys :)

I'm not saying these people upset me, but that their attitude to a serious issue annoyed me. After all, I could easily claim to have been sexually descriminated against a thousand times but I don't. It's to be expected that smaller, weaker females will be treated differently to large, strapping men and I'm happy about that. It's also to be expected that some moron splashing urine on my vehicle will be shouted at, whatever his colour :laugh:

[Julia Fox]

While I was working at the Jobcentre I had the race card pulled on me a few times but this was more than matched by you are discriminating against me because I am NOT black,gay,muslim etc,etc..
Folk will try every trick in the book if it means them getting what they want.
As a transexual and therefore in a minority group I am astounded every day by the tolerance and understanding that I get and that alone brings a smile to my face.

[Garry Walker]

While I was working at the Jobcentre I had the race card pulled on me a few times but this was more than matched by you are discriminating against me because I am NOT black,gay,muslim etc,etc..


The reality of the situation is that that sort of discrimination is more likely to happen these days than the sort where someone is discriminated against because of that person being in minority. Not that the latter is completely gone from the society, but the so-called "positive discrimination" is the worst thing to happen to the society.
The person most likely to suffer from discrimination these days is a man, heterosexual and white.

[ShiftingGears]

The reality of the situation is that that sort of discrimination is more likely to happen these days than the sort where someone is discriminated against because of that person being in minority. Not that the latter is completely gone from the society, but the so-called "positive discrimination" is the worst thing to happen to the society.
The person most likely to suffer from discrimination these days is a man, heterosexual and white.

Definitely.

[BDunnell]

The reality of the situation is that that sort of discrimination is more likely to happen these days than the sort where someone is discriminated against because of that person being in minority. Not that the latter is completely gone from the society, but the so-called "positive discrimination" is the worst thing to happen to the society.
The person most likely to suffer from discrimination these days is a man, heterosexual and white.

I disagree with this completely, I'm afraid. In what ways have you been 'discriminated' against? I bet it has nothing on racism or homophobia.

[Garry Walker]

I disagree with this completely, I'm afraid. In what ways have you been 'discriminated' against? I bet it has nothing on racism or homophobia.

You would disagree.

I have not been discriminated against, because no one is really in any position to hire or fire me for example. That is the priviledge of being your own boss.

But there have been cases where race quotas have been established, where you have to have a certain amount of minorities, otherwise you are discriminating against them. You have to have them even if the results the non-minorities show are better and they would be deserving of the job more. There recently was such a case with police force turning away white candidates in UK, simply because they were white and they needed to hire minorities. This obviously is not the only example. But it is exactly that kind of behaviour that causes frictions between groups of people and leads to problems.

[tinchote]

I disagree with this completely, I'm afraid. In what ways have you been 'discriminated' against? I bet it has nothing on racism or homophobia.

In Canada, if a woman gets my exact same job, she can apply to a government program designed to foster woman presence in academia, and her starting salary will be about 20% above mine. That's an example of "positive discrimination": I cannot apply to a program like that, and I cannot get that salary.

Last time our department was hiring, there seemed to be a consensus among many that we "had to hire a woman". Three candidates were shortlisted, in this order: man, man, woman. The woman was hired. "Positive discrimination".

The university has explicitly announced that it is striving to have the same racial representation among faculty as in society: that is, if 15% of the population are aboriginals, then 15% of the faculty should be aboriginals, etc. It just happens that the distribution of people in the profession has nothing to do with those percentages: among a couple hundreds of mathematicians I know, only one of them is aboriginal. In the end, they are trying to over-represent a minority in the name of equality: positive discrimination.

And, of course, no one in the university seems to be concerned by the fact that white males are under-represented among the janitorial personnel. They won't do any positive discrimination there :mad:

[Daniel]

Exactly Tinchote. In South Africa companies are "encouraged" to employ a black person over a white person. So if you're white and there's someone else who can do the job they get the job. As someone who firmly believes that ability should be more important than race I consider this positive discrimination.

When I went for my recent internal job interview I can almost guarantee that my being a male was an advantage as the whole department of 16 only has one woman in it.

Discrimination happens every day and most of the time it happens in ways that are so minor that we don't complain about it.

[BDunnell]

But, as much as I dislike anything that goes against the idea of a true meritocracy, I'm afraid I believe the 'white heterosexual male as victim' thing is simply taking things too far. And quite what sexuality has to do with it, I have no idea.

[Daniel]

But, as much as I dislike anything that goes against the idea of a true meritocracy, I'm afraid I believe the 'white heterosexual male as victim' thing is simply taking things too far. And quite what sexuality has to do with it, I have no idea.
Because Ben :) If you're different to most people it gives you a reason to explain why they were discriminated against.

[BDunnell]

Because Ben :) If you're different to most people it gives you a reason to explain why they were discriminated against.

Sorry, not quite sure that I follow who the 'you' is there.

[Daniel]

Sorry, not quite sure that I follow who the 'you' is there.
You is the person who thinks they're being discriminated. If we were discussing that in another thread I would call it "Is it coz I is not diffrent enuf?" ;)

[BDunnell]

You is the person who thinks they're being discriminated. If we were discussing that in another thread I would call it "Is it coz I is not diffrent enuf?" ;)

I still don't quite get the point you were making, sadly.

[schmenke]

...The university has explicitly announced that it is striving to have the same racial representation among faculty as in society: that is, if 15% of the population are aboriginals, then 15% of the faculty should be aboriginals, etc. It just happens that the distribution of people in the profession has nothing to do with those percentages: among a couple hundreds of mathematicians I know, only one of them is aboriginal. In the end, they are trying to over-represent a minority in the name of equality: positive discrimination. ...

What also seems to be neglected is the fact that a very small percentage of aboriginals (compared to non-aborigianls) have a higher education. In other words, there is a very small pool of aboriginals that would qualify for acadamia employment :mark:

[RaceFanStan]

I would be tempted to ask the person :
"Does being black give you the right to pee wherever you want ?"

[Julia Fox]

I found that most people who played the discrimination card were using it as an excuse,not a reason.
Most members of minority groups just want to be accepted.

[BDunnell]

I found that most people who played the discrimination card were using it as an excuse,not a reason.
Most members of minority groups just want to be accepted.

And not to be treated any differently to anyone else.

[tinchote]

But, as much as I dislike anything that goes against the idea of a true meritocracy, I'm afraid I believe the 'white heterosexual male as victim' thing is simply taking things too far. And quite what sexuality has to do with it, I have no idea.

I have no idea either. But then, here at the university there is a "Queer studies award" :mark:

[BDunnell]

I have no idea either. But then, here at the university there is a "Queer studies award" :mark:

Well, there are lots of bo11ocky courses at some universities nowadays.

[tinchote]

What also seems to be neglected is the fact that a very small percentage of aboriginals (compared to non-aborigianls) have a higher education. In other words, there is a very small pool of aboriginals that would qualify for acadamia employment :mark:

Absolutely. But you cannot say that in a loud voice (and try to do something about it, by the way) because it's not PC :mad:

In fact, regarding women and academia, I read a study some time ago where they had considered the reasons why people abandon a science career. This is interesting, because the gender distribution among undergrads is more or less even, while among professionals women are almost a rarity. The study found that many women simply tend to have other interests, at least more than men. I don't remember the details, but the conclusion was that the lack of women in academia was a natural phenomenon and not the consequence of any conspiracy and/or oppression, etc., etc. And still, many universities think that their faculty should be divided equally between men and women. But, for example, no one tries to achieve the same among highway or buiding workers, for example.

[BDunnell]

Absolutely. But you cannot say that in a loud voice (and try to do something about it, by the way) because it's not PC :mad:


But you can say that sort of thing. There is nothing I don't feel I can say as a result of this perceived 'political correctness'.

[Malbec]

Regarding ethnic minorities, I don't believe that in Britain there is a special bias either way any more. Of course Anglo-Saxon males who previously found themselves in an advantageous position may feel disadvantaged by having to play on a level playing field. Things may be different in countries that feel a need to correct long term injustices and places like Canada, America and Australia come to mind with their native populations.

The problem comes with women. Its definitely true that women have been discriminated against in the past, but there are clear differences between the two sexes that work against them too. In my profession it isn't traditionally regarded as acceptable to take large chunks of time out or to work part time. However any women in my profession will need to do just that in order to have children. Its a tough decision but I'm afraid women can't have their cake and eat it too. Again in my profession there has been in recent years an attempt to positively discriminate in favour of women to the extent that I'd walk out of job interviews if there were as many women as posts on offer as I knew that as a male I simply didn't have a chance.

[BDunnell]

The problem comes with women. Its definitely true that women have been discriminated against in the past, but there are clear differences between the two sexes that work against them too. In my profession it isn't traditionally regarded as acceptable to take large chunks of time out or to work part time. However any women in my profession will need to do just that in order to have children. Its a tough decision but I'm afraid women can't have their cake and eat it too.

I agree absolutely.


Again in my profession there has been in recent years an attempt to positively discriminate in favour of women to the extent that I'd walk out of job interviews if there were as many women as posts on offer as I knew that as a male I simply didn't have a chance.

In the profession in which I used to work, I believe all-woman shortlists in elections were a fundamentally bad idea, predicated on the notion that political bodies should be more 'representative'. Awful word, that, when used in this context, and rather patronising — for instance, the notion that I, as a gay man, would automatically feel better 'represented' by a gay MP than a straight one is simply absurd and more than a little offensive.

[BeansBeansBeans]

I have no idea either. But then, here at the university there is a "Queer studies award" :mark:

My brother-in-law is an academic, and he is an expert in the field of Queer Cinema.

[BeansBeansBeans]

On the subject of affirmative action (or positive discrimination, as some call it), let's not forget that it was introduced for a reason. Many organisations were turning down black or asian people for employment, regardless of their ability, and this was something which needed tackling. Okay, you could argue that the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction, and that affirmative action is no longer required in modern society, but let's not forget why it first occured.

[BDunnell]

On the subject of affirmative action (or positive discrimination, as some call it), let's not forget that it was introduced for a reason. Many organisations were turning down black or asian people for employment, regardless of their ability, and this was something which needed tackling. Okay, you could argue that the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction, and that affirmative action is no longer required in modern society, but let's not forget why it first occured.

Very good point.

The same could be said of 'political correctness', whatever that means now. I was rather saddened to read in at least two of today's obituaries of the brilliant Alan Coren that some of his humour was 'politically incorrect', as if this was somehow a higher, more valuable aspect of his comedic output than being satirical.

[BDunnell]

My brother-in-law is an academic, and he is an expert in the field of Queer Cinema.

I must apologise if you found my comment about 'bo11ocky university courses' overly dismissive. I stand by it in general, because there is some absolute rubbish around nowadays, but I am glad that minority issues can still be studied at university.

[tinchote]

My brother-in-law is an academic, and he is an expert in the field of Queer Cinema.

I have no problem with that. But the money to work on that should come from the pool of money dedicated to cinema in general. Or would it be ok to establish a "heterosexual cinema" fund? I find it intrinsically wrong to discriminate by sexual orientation.


Regarding ethnic minorities, I don't believe that in Britain there is a special bias either way any more.

I cannot speak about the job market. But regarding racism in general, I have a friend from Kenia who worked in England for several years. And it happened to him several times to enter a patient's room and the patient immediately claim to see a white doctor.


But you can say that sort of thing. There is nothing I don't feel I can say as a result of this perceived 'political correctness'.

I can say it here. But I cannot say it where it would make a difference without running the risk of getting a lot of importantn people against me.

[BDunnell]

I have no problem with that. But the money to work on that should come from the pool of money dedicated to cinema in general. Or would it be ok to establish a "heterosexual cinema" fund?

But there isn't such a thing as 'heterosexual cinema', whereas gay cinema is a specific genre in itself. I always become irritated, too, when people say things along the lines of "it's discriminatory for there to be such a thing as 'black music' when there isn't anything called 'white music'." Again, one is a genre and one isn't. I don't know why people feel threatened by these 'minority' genres.



I can say it here. But I cannot say it where it would make a difference without running the risk of getting a lot of importantn people against me.

Where, for instance? People may disagree, but I don't think anyone need feel that 'you can't say anything nowadays'. You can — thankfully, though, certain views are now generally deemed inappropriate and it's right that they are castigated. This isn't any assault on freedom of speech.

[Malbec]

I have no problem with that. But the money to work on that should come from the pool of money dedicated to cinema in general. Or would it be ok to establish a "heterosexual cinema" fund? I find it intrinsically wrong to discriminate by sexual orientation.

Gay cinema is a particular niche though, just as, say, Indian or Australian cinema or whatever. I see no problem in funding courses in such niches at all provided it is of some use.


I cannot speak about the job market. But regarding racism in general, I have a friend from Kenia who worked in England for several years. And it happened to him several times to enter a patient's room and the patient immediately claim to see a white doctor.

I find that interesting because neither myself nor my colleagues have ever experienced that. In the NHS that kind of behaviour simply isn't tolerated and patients are ejected from the hospital and in my experience it is often the white nursing staff who overhear racist comments who react most aggressively to them.

Patients in the NHS have the right to seek treatment and have some choice over the type of treatment they receive but they are not allowed the right to actively select the person giving the treatment (although they are allowed to express concerns which may be listened to if legitimate).

Perhaps over ten years ago that kind of behaviour existed, not now.

[Malbec]

In the profession in which I used to work, I believe all-woman shortlists in elections were a fundamentally bad idea, predicated on the notion that political bodies should be more 'representative'. Awful word, that, when used in this context, and rather patronising — for instance, the notion that I, as a gay man, would automatically feel better 'represented' by a gay MP than a straight one is simply absurd and more than a little offensive.

Is it worse to have a shortlist that locks out vast chunks of society in the first place or to shortlist everyone but then actively positively discriminate in favour of one group?

[BDunnell]

I find that interesting because neither myself nor my colleagues have ever experienced that. In the NHS that kind of behaviour simply isn't tolerated and patients are ejected from the hospital and in my experience it is often the white nursing staff who overhear racist comments who react most aggressively to them.

Patients in the NHS have the right to seek treatment and have some choice over the type of treatment they receive but they are not allowed the right to actively select the person giving the treatment (although they are allowed to express concerns which may be listened to if legitimate).

Perhaps over ten years ago that kind of behaviour existed, not now.

There is still the odd instance. After all, when Iain Duncan Smith was Tory leader, there was that case they took up of Rose Addis, the elderly woman who had supposedly been neglected by the NHS. It turned out, as I recall, that it was strongly suggested that she had objected to being treated by nurses from ethnic minorities.

[BDunnell]

Is it worse to have a shortlist that locks out vast chunks of society in the first place or to shortlist everyone but then actively positively discriminate in favour of one group?

I think both are equally bad.

[Malbec]

There is still the odd instance. After all, when Iain Duncan Smith was Tory leader, there was that case they took up of Rose Addis, the elderly woman who had supposedly been neglected by the NHS. It turned out, as I recall, that it was strongly suggested that she had objected to being treated by nurses from ethnic minorities.

There is clearly some, particularly from those who are demented or confused and don't have much control over what they say like the patient you mentioned. I have received some of that too but I don't count that since they are so impaired mentally that legally they are also incapable of giving consent. The point is that it is rare enough that for someone to be able to recount several episodes of such direct racism is a bit difficult to believe nowadays.

[Daniel]

There is still the odd instance. After all, when Iain Duncan Smith was Tory leader, there was that case they took up of Rose Addis, the elderly woman who had supposedly been neglected by the NHS. It turned out, as I recall, that it was strongly suggested that she had objected to being treated by nurses from ethnic minorities.
Those people have no right to come into our country and do the jobs no one here wants to do. It's scandalous!

[BDunnell]

There is clearly some, particularly from those who are demented or confused and don't have much control over what they say like the patient you mentioned. I have received some of that too but I don't count that since they are so impaired mentally that legally they are also incapable of giving consent.

Very fair point.

[BDunnell]

By the way, Dylan, do you think I've misunderstood the point you were making about political shortlists? I think I may have.

[Malbec]

By the way, Dylan, do you think I've misunderstood the point you were making about political shortlists? I think I may have.

Probably not, it was a very open-ended question!

[BDunnell]

Probably not, it was a very open-ended question!

Thinking about it, I'm not sure who you mean when you refer to large chunks of society being excluded from standing. Of course, many people are in effect excluded from standing for political parties by not being members of those parties or active in politics, but I see this as a fact of life. If you mean that men are shut out when an all-woman shortlist is imposed, then I think this is wrong.

Hope that clarifies my point to some extent!

[tinchote]

I find that interesting because neither myself nor my colleagues have ever experienced that. In the NHS that kind of behaviour simply isn't tolerated and patients are ejected from the hospital and in my experience it is often the white nursing staff who overhear racist comments who react most aggressively to them.

Patients in the NHS have the right to seek treatment and have some choice over the type of treatment they receive but they are not allowed the right to actively select the person giving the treatment (although they are allowed to express concerns which may be listened to if legitimate).

Perhaps over ten years ago that kind of behaviour existed, not now.

Maybe you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not suggesting that there is racism at the professional level. I'm just saying that if there are still patients who call for a "real doctor" when an African physician enters their room, it means that there is still a racism problem in society. Now I get it that you were talking about the professional environment all the time. Sorry about that.

[Malbec]

Maybe you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not suggesting that there is racism at the professional level. I'm just saying that if there are still patients who call for a "real doctor" when an African physician enters their room, it means that there is still a racism problem in society. Now I get it that you were talking about the professional environment all the time. Sorry about that.

Actually I wasn't, I was referring mainly to the patients.

Given the large number of both doctors and nurses within the NHS who aren't of an Anglo-Saxon background (in many cities the majority) any patient who refused treatment by a non-white would swiftly find their treatment grinding to a rapid halt even if the NHS staff looked upon them charitably.

I once remember an A/E sister talking to a drunk who demanded a white doctor, she looked at the rota and said "you're in luck, you only have another 72 hours to wait till the next one is on duty." Funnily enough his racial prejudices were suddenly silenced.

I'm not claiming for a second that racism doesn't exist either from patients or within the professions but its simply not voiced overtly as you describe. This is of course from my own experiences and that of my colleagues in the South East and experiences in some of the farthest flung provinces may differ.

[Hazell B]

I once remember an A/E sister talking to a drunk who demanded a white doctor, she looked at the rota and said "you're in luck, you only have another 72 hours to wait till the next one is on duty." Funnily enough his racial prejudices were suddenly silenced.



That made me laugh, as I know of a similar situation. A woman was brought in to our local A&E with injuries from "falling down the stairs" by her boyfriend. Knowing full well the injuries were caused by him, my mate (a nurse) sent in the largest possible porter to help the young lady get ready for her X-ray. As he was black, the man started to complain that he was a pervert "after our women" :rolleyes: . If I remember correctly, the nurse's reply was "Well, at least he lives in a bungalow. Now ****off"

[tintin]

Yesterday a van was parked blocking my road exit, so I tracked down the driver to a Greek takeaway. Waving his clipboard in my face he did the old "I no understand. I no speak Eeeengleeesh. You get at me, Johnny Foreigner. I only there two minutes!" routine.

Pointing out the van was dry underneath yet it had been raining nearly an hour was met by "I no understand you" and more clipboard waving.

The clipboard's paperwork was in English and his handwritting was neat was met by a sudden rememberance of his Leeds upbringing and muttered appology in the local accent. He knew when he was nabbed, bless him :p :


A couple of weeks ago I was eating out in a restaurant where the customer service was extraordinarily poor.

The waiter serving my table had a heavy French accent, and he gave the impression that he didn't understand a lot of English, and his English vocabulary was limited to what was on the menu.

However there was something not quite right about him, and I certainly wasn't convinced that he didn't understand the complaints of people on adjacent tables.

...So when I found lead shot in the wild game terrine (well I suppose it did prove it was wild) I decided to make my complaint in French. And it was about then that his accent became less Paris, and more Portsmouth.

[Hazell B]

:laugh:

merde :p :