New updated engine for LH - None for Alonso

[mstillhere]

Marca this time is publishing an article (http://www.marca.com/edicion/marca/motor/formula1/es/desarrollo/1047035.html) according to which LH will be using an updated (and more powerful ?)version of the German made engine. Alonso cannot use it (not without penalty), since he has used his engine only once. Anybody can confirm this news and also add more info about the new updates?

[yodasarmpit]

Awesome

However, I would prefer him to use the already established and known to be reliable 2007 engine, too much risk trying out a new one on the most important race of the year.

[Tazio]

Marca this time is publishing an article (http://www.marca.com/edicion/marca/motor/formula1/es/desarrollo/1047035.html) according to which LH will be using an updated (and more powerful ?)version of the German made engine. Alonso cannot use it (not without penalty), since he has used his engine only once. Anybody can confirm this news and also add more info about the new updates?Whats happening is that of the 4 top point getters Fred is the only one whose engine is on its second race. Because of engine regs. no one can drive a modified engine. But if it only has one race to run those engines LH KR FM can run them hotter and at higer revs One article I read said it would be an increase of ten horse power. 700hp to 710 not a big deal if that souce is correct.

[ioan]

Whats happening is that of the 4 top point getters Fred is the only one whose engine is on its second race. Because of engine regs. no one can drive a modified engine. But if it only has one race to run those engines LH KR FM can run them hotter and at higer revs One article I read said it would be an increase of ten horse power. 700hp to 710 not a big deal if that souce is correct.

Considering that because of the altitude the circuit is situated at they will all lose 7% of the engine power they have at sea level, it makes it even less than 10HP.

Anyway it's a good sign if McLaren and Mercedes are pushing the engineering limits, we may get a mechanical failure from them after all. :D

[Tazio]

Here's the Freakin' Story

engine setback for '07 finale
Posted in: Formula One By GMM on Oct 16, 2007 - 9:43:16 AM


(GMM) Lewis Hamilton will enjoy a horse power advantage over his teammate and championship rival Fernando Alonso as the 2007 season climaxes in Brazil this weekend.

The 22-year-old British rookie not only has a four-point advantage over the Spaniard, but a brand new Mercedes-Benz engine will be fitted to his single seater at the Interlagos circuit ahead of free practice on Saturday.

Alonso, on the other hand, must again use the engine he raced to second place in Shanghai two weeks ago in qualifying and the grand prix in Brazil, according to the rules.

Both Ferrari contenders are also due for new engines in Brazil, having reached the end of the mandatory two-race cycle in China.

The new 'engine freeze' rules for 2007, however, prevents Hamilton's crew - and the Ferrari team - from rolling out special aggressive developments for the championship decider, but the situation is a significant advantage for them over Alonso.

Because Brazil is the final race of the season, the necessary 'life' of a new engine is approximately halved, from 1000km to about 500km.

"It means that we can try to increase the severity of usage of the engine, for example by running higher revs," said Ferrari's head of track engineering (engine), Mattia Binotto.

"We can also run it at higher temperatures," he said ahead of the Brazilian grand prix.

The German newspaper 'TZ', meanwhile, claims that the Mercedes-Benz horse power advantage for Hamilton in Brazil, compared with Alonso, will be about 10 horse power.

[Tazio]

Considering that because of the altitude the circuit is situated at they will all lose 7% of the engine power they have at sea level, it makes it even less than 10HP.

Anyway it's a good sign if McLaren and Mercedes are pushing the engineering limits, we may get a mechanical failure from them after all. :D
I don't feel like doing the math but I think they factoed in the altitude and my original numbers may be 7% high The said 10 hps and they probably mean in inerlagos at altitude

[Tazio]

Here is what Ferrari's Engine man had to say


For Brazil, the two F2007 are fitted with fresh engines.



"In the past, when we had this situation of not having to prepare an engine to last for two races, it could lead to some extreme engine experimentation from teams, but now with the engine freeze there are limits to what can be done," says Binotto. "In the past you could have carried out dedicated development for just a single race or even built special components with a shorter life. Now, all components must remain the same but it is true that the distance the engines that we bring to Sao Paulo must cover is divided by two: five hundred kilometres instead of one thousand.”



“It means that we can try to increase the severity of usage of the engine, for example by running higher revs, try to get the maximum benefit in terms of performance. We can also run it at higher temperatures. As for the Interlagos circuit itself, the main feature as far as the engines are concerned is its height above sea level which causes a reduction in power. On top of that, the fact the main straight past the pits is uphill also means that engine power is at a premium. You therefore need to aim for maximum power down the main straight to give you the opportunity to overtake, so the choice of gear ratios is very important. These factors mean that, when setting up the car, it should be optimised not necessarily to get the best lap time but more for maximum speed and acceleration on the main straight."

http://f1.automoto365.com/news/controller.php?lang=en&theme=default&month=10&year=2007&nextMode=GpNewsForm&news_id=28407

[trumperZ06]

;) The higher rev's should be more benificial and likely give Hamilton & the two Ferrari's an advantage over Alonso.

[L5->R5/CR]

10 hp could also be a tenth or more per lap depending on the distribution of said power

[hmmm - donuts]

;) The higher rev's should be more benificial and likely give Hamilton & the two Ferrari's an advantage over Alonso.

Aren't the engines already running at the 19,000 rpm limit? - I assume that higher revs means being able to run at the limit for longer - certainly not running higher than 19,000 pm.

[DazzlaF1]

Updated engine? I thought there was supposed to be an engine development freeze

[BDunnell]

This is not necessarily good news for them/him, of course.

[Tazio]

Aren't the engines already running at the 19,000 rpm limit? - I assume that higher revs means being able to run at the limit for longer - certainly not running higher than 19,000 pm.
You are correct But it may allow them to run taller gears for the uphill straight!

[Valve Bounce]

Considering that because of the altitude the circuit is situated at they will all lose 7% of the engine power they have at sea level, it makes it even less than 10HP.

Anyway it's a good sign if McLaren and Mercedes are pushing the engineering limits, we may get a mechanical failure from them after all. :D


You are right. If we reduce engine powers by 7% , then the difference is only 9.3 HP by my reckonning. Of course, this is only a rough approximation, and if the difference is not exactly 10 HP, then the difference at altitude could be slightly different. Then, of course, my maths comes into it, and as I left school and uni such a long time ago, my calculations might be incorrect, in which case, my figure of 9.3HP may not be entirely correct.

[Ari]

Aren't the engines already running at the 19,000 rpm limit? - I assume that higher revs means being able to run at the limit for longer - certainly not running higher than 19,000 pm.

Although they're all running at 19000 rpm they rarely use all those revs. Most drivers change gear at about 17,500 and leave the ether revs on the shelf to preserve the engine. Being that they won't have to use the engine for two races they will likely change at about 18,500.

[Kevincal]

What about the idea that a performance engine has a break-in period and actually gains a bit of horsepower after some use... ;) Maybe Alonso's engine is actually in its prime? ;P

[Lalo]

"There's gonna be equalty between our drivers. There will be no favoritism"

Yeah, right!! :(

[Tazio]

Team Alonzo are going to have to make a very tough decision. Let’s pretend that his mechanics haven't conspired to help him lose. For whatever you think it is worth take notice I didn't say help LH win. There has to be a serious and conscientious diagnosis of that lump. I am going to make a prediction. Alonzo (you notice I’m not referring to him as Fr*d. That means I am like totally serious dudes). I predict my man Alonzo drives the $#!+ out of that rig through practice, sets it up like it is it's first race, using soft stones, puts it in p1 with a low fuel load. Bolts on a new lump, takes the 10 position penalty, and is p3, or p4 by the 6th lap. If there is carnage ahead of him, and he can avoid any, including self-induced, possibly put that scooter even, although not likely higher. On his first stop he will take what is a usual fuel load for a normal two stopper and another set of softy’s. Several laps after rejoining he will pass LH (if he is still running) on track! Possibly! This may or may not be for p1 but LH will not fight too hard because Fre* I mean Federico will be possessed by the devil, and would just as soon kick Mr. Lewis Hamilton into tomorrow, as look at him! On his second stop he will put in enough fuel to get him back on track to go the distance and win the wdc on the harder stones.
If this is not possible, he will have to short fill, with Team Alonzo alertly sending him back out on the soft stones. Then, “Dio de Madre”, he will flog that Mc-perro for all it's worth. Increase his lead until he is in position with time to take a splash, put on the harder compound, and rejoin (ala Mike's 4 stopper in Magny-Cours) in position to drive it home.
His only comment at the press interview as he stands with a lit cigarette gesturing with it in his hand

“That’s why I don't do two shows a night any more”

[jjanicke]

What about the idea that a performance engine has a break-in period and actually gains a bit of horsepower after some use... ;) Maybe Alonso's engine is actually in its prime? ;P

lol... only problem is that Alonso's engine surely was manufactured to be already broken in for race 1. ;)

[Valve Bounce]

You can do all the ifs and buts, perms and coms; in the final analysis, all Lewis has to do is to follow Alonso home and finish one place behind him, and Alonso won't win the championship.

[Tazio]

You can do all the ifs and buts, perms and coms; in the final analysis, all Lewis has to do is to follow Alonso home and finish one place behind him,
and Alonso won't win the championship.
And all Sr. Alonzo has to do is place first, and have someone between him,
and Saint Lewis of the Realm, and Sr. Alonzo will be Rey Del Mundo

[hmmm - donuts]

"There's gonna be equalty between our drivers. There will be no favoritism"

Yeah, right!! :(

Not favourtism - just the way the cookie crumbles.

[wmcot]

Actually, I think McLaren have been running simulations since mid-season to figure out which scenarios would work to get LH a new engine for Brazil with FA still running an old one...just another conspiracy theory for you all! ;)

[leopard]

The new updated engine of LH reminds me that this morning I was told the new parts just supplied are difficult to rolling smoothly, yeah conspiracy theory for the benefit of FA, because every development takes time before it reach its top performance. :)

[janneppi]

The same was two years ago when Renault could bring a fresh , more tuned engine with more umph taken out to the last race compared to the old engine McLaren used. There was an estimated 20-30hp difference compared to the normal level.

It's propably not as big difference this year.

[Valve Bounce]

And all Sr. Alonzo has to do is place first, and have someone between him,
and Saint Lewis of the Realm, and Sr. Alonzo will be Rey Del Mundo

Pray tell!! how on earth is Fernando going to arrange that? But if Lewis cannot follow the slower Alonso home directly behind him, he don't deserve no championship!!

[Valve Bounce]

The new updated engine of LH reminds me that this morning I was told the new parts just supplied are difficult to rolling smoothly, yeah conspiracy theory for the benefit of FA, because every development takes time before it reach its top performance. :)

Yeah!! like running some laps in P1, P2, and then sat morning practice. Get real lah!!

[leopard]

Yeah!! like running some laps in P1, P2, and then sat morning practice. Get real lah!!
True, but I this time am not sure that this theory would work, LH's chance is anyhow bigger :D

[Tazio]

Pray tell!! how on earth is Fernando going to arrange that? But if Lewis cannot follow the slower Alonso home directly behind him, he don't deserve no championship!!
Please don't pretend to be ignorant! Either Kimi, or FM could finish p2

[ArrowsFA1]

Marca this time is publishing an article according to which LH will be using an updated (and more powerful ?)version of the German made engine...
And so folks, the Brazilian GP weekend begins :rolleyes:

[Tazio]

Marca this time is publishing an article (http://www.marca.com/edicion/marca/motor/formula1/es/desarrollo/1047035.html) according to which LH will be using an updated (and more powerful ?)version of the German made engine. Alonso cannot use it (not without penalty), since he has used his engine only once. Anybody can confirm this news and also add more info about the new updates?
Don't be so Gullible, Mc Fly

[rohanweb]

hehe.. shall we see FIA scrutineers,Jean Todt & Alonso putting up a case againt RD & MW ??? for favouring LH on engines please?

it should be a feel good factor for the Hamilton bashers & something to chill the spanish press & people..lol

[ioan]

hehe.. shall we see FIA scrutineers,Jean Todt & Alonso putting up a case againt RD & MW ??? for favouring LH on engines please?

it should be a feel good factor for the Hamilton bashers & something to chill the spanish press & people..lol

:s

[Easy Drifter]

When does Mad Max demand that LH use 500 less RPM to equalize the new engine?

[jso1985]

a fresh engine running on higher revs doesn't sound like an update to me...

[Valve Bounce]

a fresh engine running on higher revs doesn't sound like an update to me...

It isn't. But not everybody here can tell the difference between a fresh engine and an updated engine.

It will be very interesting to see how many laps each car will do in practice. Very often, the total number of laps in practice is around race distance, maybe even more.

[leopard]

a fresh engine running on higher revs doesn't sound like an update to me...

You maybe true with your own perception, I am clueless translating the article. :s

[hmmm - donuts]

Transaltion for you...

Fernando Alonso will have a light handicap in the Brazilian circuit of Interlagos, since its car will have a respect power deficit Al of its rival. Lewis Hamilton will enjoy more horses of power above its companion and rival in the championship, Fernando Alonso, in the career where will be decided all in Brazil.

The British one does not only have 4 points of advantage on Alonso, but in Interlagos will run with a new motor of Mercy-Benz. The newspaper German TZ affirmed that the advantage of Hamilton on Alonso will be of some 10 horses of power.

Alonso, on the other hand, should dispute the last career with the motor that utilized in Shanghai, more harassed, two weeks ago according to the regulation.

The two pilots of Ferrari will also have new motors in Brazil, after arriving Al most minimum cycle of use of two careers in China.

The new one 'congealment of motors' does not permit that the team of Hamilton and Ferrari can do aggressive developments in its motors to decide the championship, but even thus, the situation supposes a notable advantage of them on Alonso.

As Brazil is the last career of the season, the use of the motor diminishes halfway, of 1000 km to 500 km. "That signifies that we can try to enlarge the performance of the motor, for example doing that function with more revolutions", the engineer in trail of motors said of Ferrari, Mattia Binotto. "Also we can run with him to higher temperatures", said.

[rohanweb]

Transaltion for you...

Fernando Alonso will have a light handicap in the Brazilian circuit of Interlagos, since its car will have a respect power deficit Al of its rival. Lewis Hamilton will enjoy more horses of power above its companion and rival in the championship, Fernando Alonso, in the career where will be decided all in Brazil.

The British one does not only have 4 points of advantage on Alonso, but in Interlagos will run with a new motor of Mercy-Benz. The newspaper German TZ affirmed that the advantage of Hamilton on Alonso will be of some 10 horses of power.

Alonso, on the other hand, should dispute the last career with the motor that utilized in Shanghai, more harassed, two weeks ago according to the regulation.

The two pilots of Ferrari will also have new motors in Brazil, after arriving Al most minimum cycle of use of two careers in China.

The new one 'congealment of motors' does not permit that the team of Hamilton and Ferrari can do aggressive developments in its motors to decide the championship, but even thus, the situation supposes a notable advantage of them on Alonso.

As Brazil is the last career of the season, the use of the motor diminishes halfway, of 1000 km to 500 km. "That signifies that we can try to enlarge the performance of the motor, for example doing that function with more revolutions", the engineer in trail of motors said of Ferrari, Mattia Binotto. "Also we can run with him to higher temperatures", said.


good explanation donuts.
thanx

[rohanweb]

Pray tell!! how on earth is Fernando going to arrange that? But if Lewis cannot follow the slower Alonso home directly behind him, he don't deserve no championship!!


well..no one @ ferrari replying to fernando's SMS ..lol

then obviously you are right,that will happen if there were 'team orders' due to equal treatment or that fia scruitneer sits next to RD on the pitwall will force RD to order LH not to overtake FA ..if FA moved off the start line first / FA got in front of LH or even FA got pole...

i reckon if thats the case LH will tell both RD & FIA to go f**king swivel..i am taking on Fernando...lol

[Dave B]

What's the big deal? The drivers happen to be out of sync on their engine cycle. If that gives an advantage to the driver on the new engine, then it stands to reason that Alonso had an advantage in China, and nobody made a big deal about it then.

Just because this is the last race doesn't make it mathematically any more important than any of the preceding sixteen - a driver's final score is the sum of all their races, not just this one.

[markabilly]

well..no one @ ferrari replying to fernando's SMS ..lol

then obviously you are right,that will happen if there were 'team orders' due to equal treatment or that fia scruitneer sits next to RD on the pitwall will force RD to order LH not to overtake FA ..if FA moved off the start line first / FA got in front of LH or even FA got pole...

i reckon if thats the case LH will tell both RD & FIA to go f**king swivel..i am taking on Fernando...lol

No he will be thinking those guys in Nastybumpcar make how much $$$$$$$$$$$$$for just running around in a circle chasing their tails, and I get to throw helmets on the track, do doughnuts, bump anybody I do not like... no more hours of endless testing, no more everyone saying I am winning cause I got the best car, no more RD telling me I can not get drunk and eat all the doughnuts and barbeque I want......

and best of all, no more whiney, nerdy, pseduo-intellectual fans english fans drinking too much kool aid...


If JPM and JV can do it, so can I.........yep that is what he will be thinkin, man

[ioan]

It will be very interesting to see how many laps each car will do in practice. Very often, the total number of laps in practice is around race distance, maybe even more.

That's because on Fridays they don't use their race engine but a new one. HTH ;)

[janneppi]

What's the big deal? The drivers happen to be out of sync on their engine cycle. If that gives an advantage to the driver on the new engine, then it stands to reason that Alonso had an advantage in China, and nobody made a big deal about it then.

Just because this is the last race doesn't make it mathematically any more important than any of the preceding sixteen - a driver's final score is the sum of all their races, not just this one.
There is a difference though, a normal new engine has to last two races and driven in the first race with that in mind, but now those with fresh engines don't have to worry about the next 500km's

[Garry Walker]

The same was two years ago when Renault could bring a fresh , more tuned engine with more umph taken out to the last race compared to the old engine McLaren used. There was an estimated 20-30hp difference compared to the normal level.

It's propably not as big difference this year.

The difference is much smaller this year, but I am sure there will be some difference. 10 HP is probably too much.
Alonso has himself only to blame though, he crashed his car and engine at Japan, not anyone else


It will be very interesting to see how many laps each car will do in practice. Very often, the total number of laps in practice is around race distance, maybe even more.

You do realize they dont use the race engines during Friday Practises, yes?

[Tazio]

[quote="
Alonso has himself only to blame though=[/QUOTE"]

Or does he?

[Garry Walker]

Or does he?

So who crashed his car at Fuji? god? George Bush?

[Tazio]

So who crashed his car at Fuji? god? George Bush?

That was an allegorical comment.

The short version a veiled meaning within a narrative

allegory, in literature, symbolic story that serves as a disguised representation for meanings other than those indicated on the surface. The characters in an allegory often have no individual personality, but are embodiments of moral qualities and other abstractions. The allegory is closely related to the parable, fable, and metaphor, differing from them largely in intricacy and length. A great variety of literary forms have been used for allegories. The medieval morality play Everyman, personifying such abstractions as Fellowship and Good Deeds, recounts the death journey of Everyman. John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress, a prose narrative, is an allegory of man's spiritual salvation. Spenser's poem The Faerie Queene, besides being a chivalric romance, is a commentary on morals and manners in 16th-century England as well as a national epic. Although allegory is still used by some authors, its popularity as a literary form has declined in favor of a more personal form of symbolic expression (see symbolists).
See C. S. Lewis, The Allegory of Love (1936); P. de Man, Allegories of Reading (1979); M. Quilligan, The Language of Allegory (1979)