Matt Neal +

[WSRfan82]

i dont know how you lot feel about this but ive lost respect for neal after that 3rd race :( . neal said he did not want to mess things up...ahum....you just did....costing plato the far chance of the championship ok plato was slow at the start but neal could of let plato though like he did with tom and gio "not to mess things up" but like plato said its neal so it was expected lol

id also like to say congrats to WSR/Team RAC for winning the indy teams championship yay!!! :) and to congrat colin turkington for winning the indy drivers championship woooo!!!! hoooo!!! yes!!!!!!!! :) and i hope jordan is ok after his off

[tin-top fan]

I completely agree...........It almost feels that team dynamics are trying to eliminate the rest of their fanbase!

[Tshbez]

It was just so obvious he was aiding Vauxhall, I mean there was no chance he was letting Plato through. I've never seen anything like it in racing; a driver from a different team letting rivals pass him. It took nothing away from Giovanardi's victory because I think the championship was won at the start of the race but it was a blatent two fingers up to Plato and fairness. Yes, I know drivers have done some pretty unfair things in the past but this just takes the biscuit.

[Bezza]

I was gonna say I'd lost respect for Matt Neal, but then I've not had respect for him since around 2002 when his ego overtook his driving skill.

Jason Plato is a legend in my eyes considering he was driving through the pain barrier, heavily bandaged hands. Giovanardi is a worthy champion who never needed to resort to any dirty tactics. Both drivers deserved to be champion in fairness, and its a shame somebody had to lose out.

However, there is one man who just couldn't help but get involved. After two championships he is not involved in this one but he decides to have his say anyway. Pathetically letting past the two Vauxhalls, and then blocking Plato. I cheered when Plato punted him off, i don't condone that sort of thing but Plato had nothing to lose and Neal deserved it.

Matt Neal is a disgrace in my opinion, he is supposed to be a grown man but resorts to these kind of tactics, as if he's playing on a Playstation with a fellow 12-year old. Like Plato said, you can't expect any less. Hopefully those blind "fans" that Neal apparently, somehow, still has after all his tricks and tactics over the years can finally see the light. Peoples Champion - my arse. The guys a mouse.

[BTCC Fan#1]

Just unbelivable. He's lost me completely with that one. I really don't know what else to say, especially after his comments in the pre-race interview. Unfortunatly I could see him playing some role in the title battle after the 2nd race, a real shame. I don't normally condone apparently deliberate contact but I have to say I gave a cheer when Plato got past him at the complex.
Not impressed. :down: I hope he doesn't get the Vauxhall drive now.

[WSRfan82]

well btccfan after that i bet neal does get the vauxhall drive as hes helped them out big time

[Pedalpusher]

Very sad to see that another competitor, who is not involved in the championship fight, blatantly moves over to allow certain drivers through.

Yes Gio got a great start which really helped his cause but Plato's race would have been a bit easier without the petty antics of Neal.

[Neil Adams]

well matt is off to vauxhall next year, so it all makes 'sense' in a way

[tin-top fan]

Yup- confirmed here http://www.crash.net/news_view~cid~10~id~155938.htm

[BDunnell]

Seems a bit blatant, doesn't it?

[thetrooper_uk]

I'm not a big fan of Matt either but Plato was crashing into most of the cars in front of him anyway including Matt, so I don't see why he should have let him through. Plato crashed into Gio twice but still couldn't get past so I'm glad he never won.

[Ian McC]

The decision was already made, still, that last race was wrong, way wrong :down:

[Mark]

I don't know the exact BTCC rules but you would expect drivers from within a team to aid their team mates. But when a driver from one team aids another, there is just one word for that.. cheating.

[ukaskew]

Probably one of the most vindictive things I've ever seen on a race track, particuarly in light of the comments he made to Ted Kravitz earlier in the day about racing fair, but battling for track position.

Letting two 'rival' cars through just to stop a man he doesn't like is low in the extreme, no racer who does it for the love of the sport would give up track position so easily.

[SEATFreak]

Irrespective of whether he was off to VXR or not, as unmentioned in the rules it is, Mat Squeal didn't have to do it. Not because it is or isn't in the rules. But because it ain't sportsmanlike.

Here's to the crossed fingers that SEAT push their full might into pulling something fantastic out the hat for 2008.

[taffy]

Just read Alan Gow`s comments on this on BTCC.net.. He spoke to JP after the race and JP said that Matt Neals performance in race 3 is not what cost him the title and that he had had no complaints from Seat about the way MN let through the vauxhalls.. It still does not excuse the way MN blocked him. He stated after race 2 he would not get involved in the title battle.. So why did he??

[msport-images]

Yes ... i sat down to watch the rounds last night ... cheering for JP as i have been all season , its about time we had a "fighter" back in the btcc .

What Matt did yesterday 100% killed all the respect i had for him as a driver to be honest , very unfair !! ... still next year hey JP ?

soooo .. on the other note if JP had got past (let past) Matt when he was feeling charitable perhaps it would have been a different story , as usual Jason had a very strong car late on in the race .

Thats my feelings anyway

cheers

[MAX_THRUST]

dissapointing, to think I was pleased for Neal and his family the last two times they won the championship. Idiot driving, no morals......sad. (Didn't wany Plato to have won it as many times as him!!) Plato only hit Gio in the second race as he had to defend from Neal who lunged for the inside, Gio breaked early while Neal & JP were on it. Much Respect to Gio for the cup, huge respect to JP for even driving. Oh and he is one of the nicest guys I've ever met in any paddock. Matt Neal I'm sorry, you are going off next year, at every oppotunity someone gets........

[CroftPilgrim]

Just read Alan Gow`s comments on this on BTCC.net.. He spoke to JP after the race and JP said that Matt Neals performance in race 3 is not what cost him the title and that he had had no complaints from Seat about the way MN let through the vauxhalls.

Well, maybe we should let it lie then. Let's be honest, these on track rivalries are one of the things we enjoy about the BTCC and in a sense it was great to see Matt and Jason still slugging it out at the very end!

Anyway, I want to say (at the risk of being lynched!), congratulations to Matt on getting the most prodigious seat in the BTCC - a works Vauxhall drive!

[AndyRAC]

Well, maybe we should let it lie then. Let's be honest, these on track rivalries are one of the things we enjoy about the BTCC and in a sense it was great to see Matt and Jason still slugging it out at the very end!

Anyway, I want to say (at the risk of being lynched!), congratulations to Matt on getting the most prodigious seat in the BTCC - a works Vauxhall drive!

You could say that both Matt Neal and Vauxhall deserve each other, should be a match made in heaven. There both as bad as each other, sorry but I don't have any respect for either of them.
I've never been a fan of Vauxhall, there's something about them that grates me, maybe it's the smugness of Mike Nicholson.

[VkmSpouge]

I have no problems with how Matt Neal raced, he helped his future team mate and team win the title while fighting fairly with Jason Plato.

[bt52b]

What a sad slimey vauxhall floor matt, he was in race three, the most bitter twisted elder lemon of the BTCC. TD must be pissed too, to see a decent finish thrown away in his final race. What did GIO do deserve a teammate like that :confused:

[Daniel]

I don't know the exact BTCC rules but you would expect drivers from within a team to aid their team mates. But when a driver from one team aids another, there is just one word for that.. cheating.
Race fixing would be an even better description by the sound of it. This was the guy that people were using the phrase "people's champion" to describe a few years ago or am I wrong? :)

[BDunnell]

I suspect that it would be impossible to prove any 'fixing'.

[BeeJ_UK]

I lost respect for Matt Neal in 06, in 05 he was the peoples champion in 06 his ego got over inflated to be honest I did not expect any more from him whether he was going to Vauxhall or not.

[SC76]

Was at Thruxton yesterday and am extremely gutted that Plato didn't get the title :bigcry:

Matt Neal has never had my respect and has even less after his performance yesterday - letting the Vauxhalls through like that is unforgiveable and really shows his true colours.

Lots of Seat & VXR fans at Thruxton yesterday, don't recall seeing many Team Halfords supporters - all the glory hunters switched allegiance have they?

[NoahsGirl]

I couldn't believe it when Neal was letting the Vauxhalls through and not JP. MN may be on his way to Vauxhall next season, but they are not paying his wages yet! Team Dynamics must be well annoyed.

It spoilt a great battle that would have probably gone down to the final lap, even though my nerves and fingernails were gone!

[MattL]

You could say that both Matt Neal and Vauxhall deserve each other, should be a match made in heaven. There both as bad as each other, sorry but I don't have any respect for either of them.
I've never been a fan of Vauxhall, there's something about them that grates me, maybe it's the smugness of Mike Nicholson.

Pretty harsh words against a manufacturer that has put so much into the BTCC!

[wedge]

TBH, MN antics didn't surprise me one bit. His stock has been plunging over the past couple of years and his arrogance heading the other direction.

That race incident reminded me of the 1993 Japanese GP where Senna lapped Irvine but didn't lap Hill (because they were going to be team mates the following season), Irvine unlapped himself because he was racing against Hill for position.

[SEATFreak]

I suspect that it would be impossible to prove any 'fixing'.

Maybe not "fixing", maybe not "cheating". But would it be getting closer to the mark to say "influenced"?

Neal influenced to a degree I feel the race order and therefore perhaos to a small extent the title race.


Pretty harsh words against a manufacturer that has put so much into the BTCC!

I don't see how that safeguards Vauxhall against criticism.

Jase and Matt Neal have been in the BTCC for years yet they haven't been immune from criticism. They have attracted their fair share of it in the past.

[thetrooper_uk]

Most of you seem to have a blank memory to some of the unsportsmanlike driving that Plato has done over the years. Most of you seem to forget it's a race and the guy behind must find a way past, not be let past.

The amount of times I have seen drivers letting their rivals through because they know that they are faster and would not be able to defend for all the race.

At the end of the day all is fair in love and war. It's done now get over it.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Most of you seem to have a blank memory to some of the unsportsmanlike driving that Plato has done over the years. Most of you seem to forget it's a race and the guy behind must find a way past, not be let past.

Giovanardi and Chilton didn't have to find a way past did they?

[BeansBeansBeans]

At the end of the day all is fair in love and war.

A fantastic double-cliche there.

[Daniel]

Giovanardi and Chilton didn't have to find a way past did they?
Must be that blank memory he was talking about ;)

[Daniel]

A fantastic double-cliche there.
Such is life BBB :)

[Mark]

it's a race and the guy behind must find a way past, not be let past.

Which is exactly what we are complaining about.



At the end of the day all is fair in love and war. It's done now get over it.

Sport has rules which competitiors must follow.

[CroftPilgrim]

I'm struggling to see what Matt did in 05 and 06 to make people lose respect for him. He's always been the same hard, talented driver. Perhaps we could have some examples - or is it that we don't like supporting winners?

[Captain VXR]

Well I didnt see that from where I was sat so I will be neutral until I see the TV coverage :) . Wonder if TD and VXR did a driver swap (Chilton to TD?)

[tisme]

Wonder if TD and VXR did a driver swap (Chilton to TD?)

Don't think so... it's mentioned somewhere else that Chilton will be in a new car to the BTCC for next year!

[Bezza]

I'm struggling to see what Matt did in 05 and 06 to make people lose respect for him. He's always been the same hard, talented driver. Perhaps we could have some examples - or is it that we don't like supporting winners?

Don't tempt me. Virtually every interview with Matt Neal, especially in 05 and 06 was all about his ego. As for his driving standards...

I can't believe a couple of years ago I used to get unbelievable stick for disliking the guy so much, and now everybody can see exactly what he's like. He's ALWAYS been that kind of person.

[ASCAR24/7/365.5]

its interesting, i was always a huge matt neal fan since about 96, and hated plato, i thought he winged too much, but now i can see where hes coming from, ive lost alot of respect for neal and gained alot for plato after his performance at the weekend, im glad gio won the title and i dont think plato would have caught him even if he could have got past neal easier but thats no excuse for what neal did.

[VkmSpouge]

I don't really understand the reaction to this; if Matt Neal had been driving a Vauxhall yesterday what he done would have been perfectly fine (I don't think anyone would have a problem with Chilton or Menu doing it) but because he is only driving a Vauxhall next year what he did was a terrible thing?

[Activediffsonly]

I'd like to know how happy title sponsor Halfords were, about Neall giving away a certain podium in the season finale in order to satisfy a personal grudge and suck up to a future employer.
If team dynamics can get away with that sort of behaviour when they have a duty to maximise there sponsorship and marketing opportunities/responsibilities i will be genuinely suprised.

[Ian McC]

I find the whole thing depressing, with this and the mess F1 is in it's enough to put you off motorsport.

[Luffield]

You could say that both Matt Neal and Vauxhall deserve each other, should be a match made in heaven. There both as bad as each other, sorry but I don't have any respect for either of them.
I've never been a fan of Vauxhall, there's something about them that grates me, maybe it's the smugness of Mike Nicholson.

I might drive a Vauxhall myself but I don't support them in the BTCC nowadays myself.

They gave Muller all the best bits of the car in '99 and drove Cleland (Mr Vauxhall) out of the BTCC :(

Then Plato lost his chance to defend his title after a conflict with the afore mentioned Mr Muller and now this.

I hope JP comes back with his Seat and gets the 2nd title he deserves.

Although Giovanardi is a class driver and a worthy champion.

[mad.butcher2]

Hi First post on here. After yesterdays races and talking in work this morning, was it un sporting of Mat Neal to let the Vauxhalls through and to block JP in the third race. Mat was saying he wanted a clean race but probably pulled off a bad move by blocking JP. For years we have longed for an exciting final race and the fans were disappointed. Also now that Mat has signed for VX did he have double intrests? Or is it simply bad blood between Mat and JP? :confused:

JP You are a Hero for racing! :s mokin: :bandit:

[Sarah]

He needs to remember the people who pay good money for their tickets or take time out to watch TV on a Sunday afternoon. They will do something else if they don't like what they see.

[Captain VXR]

Don't think so... it's mentioned somewhere else that Chilton will be in a new car to the BTCC for next year!

I hadn't read that when I posted, probably you're correct as it was posted by TDB :)

[WSRfan82]

Chirst ive got something started here :S

So what if Neals is driving for VX in 2008 what he did was not on end of and i realy hope Seat and Plato blow VX and Neal away with win after win. plato for the 2008 championship :)

I can see neal flying off the track next year more then once :)

[Mark]

I don't really understand the reaction to this; if Matt Neal had been driving a Vauxhall yesterday what he done would have been perfectly fine (I don't think anyone would have a problem with Chilton or Menu doing it) but because he is only driving a Vauxhall next year what he did was a terrible thing?

Exactly correct. Matt Neal was not driving for VXR at Thruxton. It seems he forgot that.

It's a general rule in sport that you help your team mates but you never help another team. People have gone to jail for that in other sports.

[KILOHMUNNS]

Time to get shot down but I feel like playing devils advocate!!! :p

I only got a chance to watch it racing last night so have stayed silent and to make sure I'm impartial I think both drivers are good at what they do but are as bad as each other personality wise!

It seem most people are looking at this in a fans perpective, what about the drivers perpective. Here are a few observations.

1. You hate a particular driver and you can ensure that you can get one over on them, would you? I know I would and I'd make it as hard as I could for them.

2. You are going to join a team and can help by making them the championship winning team? Would you help? I think the answer again is yes! It could mean the difference of getting more respect/support when you join!

3. With regards to the racing, from what I could see Plato was a long way off even challenging until he decided to completely miss the chicane out (did he lock up? I didn't see any tell tale signs like tyre smoke) which gained nearly a second on the other and he carried more speed to he could catch up. Was this sportmanship or a sign of desperation? Or even cheating!

4. In race 2 he nearly took Gio and himself off and in race 3 pushed Neal and tried the same to Chilton. Is this the sign of a true champion or again is this cheating?

Just 4 little observations. On the flip side it has been a cracking season to go down the wire and for Plato to even race was a credit to him and puts him up in my estimations. On the other hand what Neal did was underhand and did take away something from the championship finale. But it's not the first time it's happened or the last time it will happen. I also think Neal will have difficult time next season being effectively no 2.

Right let the debate continue! :D

[Iain]

1. You hate a particular driver and you can ensure that you can get one over on them, would you? I know I would and I'd make it as hard as I could for them.


That's a good point actually. :up:

I'm not that bothered about what happened the other day. I don't think JP had much left in him in that final race, so it wouldn't have made much difference had Matt Neal not been involved.

I heard the rumour about MN and VXR on Saturday afternoon and did think to myself that maybe there would be an extra orange Vauxhall on Sunday should it be needed. :p :

[SEATFreak]

2. You are going to join a team and can help by making them the championship winning team? Would you help? I think the answer again is yes! It could mean the difference of getting more respect/support when you join!

I don't think I would.

But then your feeling and mine are as different as chalk and cheese.

Until I joined "Team Y" I would still consider myself a driver racing for "Team X".

But then again I wouldn't be as bothered about getting more respect when I joined if it means me being given a car I could win in. But then again in order for me to give myself the best chance to win I would really want support so I would be bothered about.

[Iain]

So you agree then. :p :

[SEATFreak]

Just noticed the new look btw......like it.....

Well...I would have to say I do indeed agree, yes.

It is a catch-22 situation. Which ever I do, I end up having to agree.

If their was a way of getting support (of the technical and emotional kind) without getting respect, even though we all know what it brings, I would help my future team by hindering the progress of a rival. I desperately need good technical support for my car if my car is going to be a fast, competitive and reliable car.

But I would also have to agree if their was no other way of getting support and/or respect than to hinder the progress of a rival and help my future team-to-be make another year of multiple success.

[TMorel]

I dunno, if I was a VXR mechanic I'd be thinking that Matt was happy to shaft his current team out of a podium, so he's likely to shaft us when he's had enough and wants to move on again. That's not something that would gain much respect from me.

[thetrooper_uk]

Giovanardi and Chilton didn't have to find a way past did they?
Giovanardi got a good start and passed cars through skill. Chilton was the only one that was let past. If Jase was not happy he should have bashed the others out the way......oops I forgot he tried that and it never worked.

[thetrooper_uk]

Time to get shot down but I feel like playing devils advocate!!! :p

I only got a chance to watch it racing last night so have stayed silent and to make sure I'm impartial I think both drivers are good at what they do but are as bad as each other personality wise!

It seem most people are looking at this in a fans perpective, what about the drivers perpective. Here are a few observations.

1. You hate a particular driver and you can ensure that you can get one over on them, would you? I know I would and I'd make it as hard as I could for them.

2. You are going to join a team and can help by making them the championship winning team? Would you help? I think the answer again is yes! It could mean the difference of getting more respect/support when you join!

3. With regards to the racing, from what I could see Plato was a long way off even challenging until he decided to completely miss the chicane out (did he lock up? I didn't see any tell tale signs like tyre smoke) which gained nearly a second on the other and he carried more speed to he could catch up. Was this sportmanship or a sign of desperation? Or even cheating!

4. In race 2 he nearly took Gio and himself off and in race 3 pushed Neal and tried the same to Chilton. Is this the sign of a true champion or again is this cheating?

Just 4 little observations. On the flip side it has been a cracking season to go down the wire and for Plato to even race was a credit to him and puts him up in my estimations. On the other hand what Neal did was underhand and did take away something from the championship finale. But it's not the first time it's happened or the last time it will happen. I also think Neal will have difficult time next season being effectively no 2.

Right let the debate continue! :D
I totally agree with you.

[VkmSpouge]

Exactly correct. Matt Neal was not driving for VXR at Thruxton. It seems he forgot that.

It's a general rule in sport that you help your team mates but you never help another team. People have gone to jail for that in other sports.

An unwritten rule, so Neal didn't really do anything wrong by the rules. I'll admit I wasn't thrilled with Neal not treating the two championship challengers equally but I don't see why it bothers everyone so much.


I'm not that bothered about what happened the other day. I don't think JP had much left in him in that final race, so it wouldn't have made much difference had Matt Neal not been involved.

Probably right, even if Plato had been let through by Neal he still would have to pass Chilton and then Giovanardi. Ultimately it was Plato's start that cost him the title.

[Winchester]

Giovanardi got a good start and passed cars through skill. Chilton was the only one that was let past. If Jase was not happy he should have bashed the others out the way......oops I forgot he tried that and it never worked.

Neal let both of them past! You could see him waving. It was as clear as the day is long!
I think that much is undisputed, surely?

[KILOHMUNNS]

Neal let both of them past! You could see him waving. It was as clear as the day is long!
I think that much is undisputed, surely?

I don't think anyone is disputing that, but what theTrooper is trying to say is that if Plato had a better start and got in front of Gio at the start then we wouldn't be having this discussion as Neal wouldn't have let anybody through as Plato would have been defending from Gio!

[BDunnell]

I'm not that bothered about what happened the other day. I don't think JP had much left in him in that final race, so it wouldn't have made much difference had Matt Neal not been involved.

In any case, if Neal hadn't got in the way and Plato had won the title, people would be moaning about Plato's earlier contact with Giovanardi and saying that he'd taken the championship by unfair means.

I still didn't like any of it though.

[fabricator/61]

Having read all the replies on this thread I am amazed how much bile and hatred are being banded about Matt. Lets get one thing straight, all the cars have a spy in the cab cameras and the stewards would have watched the same race as us and if they were happy then everything was above board.Come on folks this is motor racing not the Womens institute knitting circle!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CroftPilgrim]

Don't tempt me. Virtually every interview with Matt Neal, especially in 05 and 06 was all about his ego. As for his driving standards....

Really? Well, I guess my perception is different to yours.

I dont think Matt's driving standards are any better or worse than most other drivers. The only change over the years is that Matt is now a two time champion. He has the same attitude today as he did years ago. It was that attitude that made him win at Donny in 2000 when the field was dominated by the 3 works teams. It was that attitude that gave him two chamionships

As I say, I think we have something against winners....

Anyone?

[Dave Clark]

I wouldnt say I have anything against any of our winners. I've liked Tarquini, Rydell, Menu, Aiello, Thompson, Plato, Harvey, Cleland who is a legend....


I was gonna say I'd lost respect for Matt Neal, but then I've not had respect for him since around 2002 when his ego overtook his driving skill.

Couldnt put it better... I'd say from 1999/2000 but yes, his ego far outweighs his driving skill.

I fully respected him whilst I was growing up and really wanted to be just like Matt Neal... for any kids reading this... choose a different role model!

It shows how a little bit of money goes straight to your head! Whilst an underfunded privateer, Matt was a nice guy. As soon as Max Power/Halfords sponsorship comes his way he becomes a complete tw@.

[Perdita_X]

3. With regards to the racing, from what I could see Plato was a long way off even challenging until he decided to completely miss the chicane out (did he lock up? I didn't see any tell tale signs like tyre smoke) which gained nearly a second on the other and he carried more speed to he could catch up. Was this sportmanship or a sign of desperation? Or even cheating!


I am so pleased that someone has mentioned this! Jason was so far away from Matt et al until he missed that chicane, that he really would never have caught them...and as memory serves, a couple of laps later he did it again!!! Everyone seems to be insisting that Matt was cheating, but are failing to mention that Jason TWICE drove around a significantly shorter circuit than the rest of the drivers giving himself the opportunity to challenge for the positions. Tell me if I'm wrong, but last time I checked there were rules against this! Given that both Fabby Fabrizio and Tom had caught Matt fair and square, possibly he felt agrieved at allowing Jason through easily given he had not caught him entirely honestly. Just a thought!

Secondly, someone mentioned earlier (and I apologise for my ignorance, but I forget who it was) that Jason was not given the opportunity to defend his title with VX due to a falling out with Yvan. Given the way Jason won the title, this was not exactly a shock was it! The move Jason made on Yvan at Silverstone can only be likened to the move made by Schumacher on Hill all those years ago that the majority of people agree was a disgraceful move. When a driver is willing to sacrifice his team mate so easily to his further his own interests, he has to expect the come back.

You may have guessed that I am not the worlds biggest Jason fan, but I will say that I take my hat off to him with his performance this weekend given his accident. I am pleased Fabrizio won, but I am not the kind of person who would wish bad things on people, so I would like to congratulate Jason on his courage and achievement, and wish him a speedy recovery.

Finally, I am a Matt fan. I have been a Matt fan since 1994. We would visit him in Pit Lane Walk Abouts when no one else wanted to speak to him and would spend ages chatting to him. A number of years later, when we still had 2 sets of qualifying, Matt got a double pole at Oulton Park (I think it was 2002) and my friend and I ran to the paddock afterwards to congratulate him, and for our trouble got picked up and spun around by an exceptionally happy chap! In 2005 after his first Championship win at Brands Hatch Matt bought us a drink in the bar of the hotel and (although understandably squiffy) thanked us for our support. I got married earlier this year and received a message of congratulations from him. Given the rise in his profile, it is harder to find him these days in the paddock, and it is harder to have the long conversations that we used to have with him, but he is certainly not all about his ego. He is the exact same dry, funny, mischevous, very tall chappy that he has always been.

[BDunnell]

Secondly, someone mentioned earlier (and I apologise for my ignorance, but I forget who it was) that Jason was not given the opportunity to defend his title with VX due to a falling out with Yvan. Given the way Jason won the title, this was not exactly a shock was it! The move Jason made on Yvan at Silverstone can only be likened to the move made by Schumacher on Hill all those years ago that the majority of people agree was a disgraceful move. When a driver is willing to sacrifice his team mate so easily to his further his own interests, he has to expect the come back.

I don't think we should start going over this again, but not everyone would agree about that incident. I think there were worse ones that year.

[Perdita_X]

Indeed there were....just a shame that this particular one decided the championship!

[Steelrat]

May I just say what a superb move that was by Chilton on Coronel and Plato at Campbell on lap 2 of race 3?

Just thought I'd mention something positive about the last race .....

P

[thetrooper_uk]

Having read all the replies on this thread I am amazed how much bile and hatred are being banded about Matt. Lets get one thing straight, all the cars have a spy in the cab cameras and the stewards would have watched the same race as us and if they were happy then everything was above board.Come on folks this is motor racing not the Womens institute knitting circle!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well said.

[CroftPilgrim]

IMatt ... is the exact same dry, funny, mischevous, very tall chappy that he has always been.

That is my perception, and I dont even know him!

[WSRfan82]

when matt in the indy ford mondeo and then the nissan primera i had a lot of respect for neal as he did so well with it being his dads team and he was a real gent was willing to chat to you etc and as soon as 2002 came 2nd year of the btc regs he was not the matt neal i remembered could not be bothered talking to fans ignoring us and walked off so after that i stoped supproting neal

[Perdita_X]

I really don't think its a case of Matt not wanting to speak to people, I think its more a case of him being unable to. I too remember the days when you could spend a good half hour having a chin wag with him in the paddock, but the fact is that he is now one of the leading drivers in the series and everyone wants to have a bit of him (as it were! :eek: ) making it really difficult for him to speak to everyone all the time.

Also, he has a job to do at a race weekend. In the past he had time to chat to everyone that wanted to chat with him, go over all the informationy technical gubbins (technical terms only you'll notice!!!) he has to go over between races or after qualifying and have time to compose himself and focus ready for the next race or whatever. Because of the sheer volume of people that surround him now when he leaves the garage, it would be simply impossible for him to dedicate the time to everyone the way he used to and still do his job effectively.

Finally, because of his position as a leading driver he now receives an awful lot of media attention too, as well as column inches in magazines or fan forums like this one, and people analyze and over analyze absolutely everything he says or does in a way they never did before. He therefore has to be much more guarded about what he says in conversation these days than he ever was before, just in case it is repeated on a forum or by a journo or whatever and taken out of context.

Personally, I am blooming glad I don't have that kind of pressure on me every time I have a conversation with someone in my workplace!!!

[Hazell B]

That's all very well, but does being (or appearing to be) Mr Nice Guy allow him to act as he did last weekend?

They're very different subjects ;)

[Perdita_X]

Depends on whether you think he acted inapropriately. Personally I feel that Mr Plato acted outside of the rules by cutting the chicane twice in order to catch up with Matt. I don't feel that given this circumstance, Matt not letting him past could be considered as inapropriate behaviour.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Depends on whether you think he acted inapropriately. Personally I feel that Mr Plato acted outside of the rules by cutting the chicane twice in order to catch up with Matt. I don't feel that given this circumstance, Matt not letting him past could be considered as inapropriate behaviour.

Nobody could possibly have a problem with Neal not letting Plato past per se. The issue is that he let Giovanardi and Chilton past, but not Plato.

[SparkyKate]

Ok, i have read everyone's opinions on the final and i've got to say, whether you're a Matt Neal fan or not (and i'm REALLY not) you have got to see that his driving and general smugness etc was not the problem, the Plato at the chicanes (one of which was caused by Neal, MN fans) was not the problem, it was simply the absolutly disgusting behaviour of waving past TWO COMPETITORS, made all the worse by claiming before hand that he was going to stay out of it. Yes, holding up Plato is just racing and yes the bloke who was suffering with full thickness burns at the time, was not exactly at his best standard by race 3, but never have i known someone, especially of champion standard to totally disregard and disrespect his current team by waving past the competition for no other reason than to gain brownie points at his new team n kick Plato when he's down. For the record I am not a Neal or Plato fan, i am just sick of watching motorsport goin to hell, just like some of the goings on in F1 this year this is just another example of unsportsmanlike and truly pathetic behaviour...and i tell you what, if the tables were reversed then all you Neal fans would be baying for Plato's blood :rolleyes:

[Wasted Talent]

Ok, i have read everyone's opinions on the final and i've got to say, whether you're a Matt Neal fan or not (and i'm REALLY not) you have got to see that his driving and general smugness etc was not the problem, the Plato at the chicanes (one of which was caused by Neal, MN fans) was not the problem, it was simply the absolutly disgusting behaviour of waving past TWO COMPETITORS, made all the worse by claiming before hand that he was going to stay out of it. Yes, holding up Plato is just racing and yes the bloke who was suffering with full thickness burns at the time, was not exactly at his best standard by race 3, but never have i known someone, especially of champion standard to totally disregard and disrespect his current team by waving past the competition for no other reason than to gain brownie points at his new team n kick Plato when he's down. For the record I am not a Neal or Plato fan, i am just sick of watching motorsport goin to hell, just like some of the goings on in F1 this year this is just another example of unsportsmanlike and truly pathetic behaviour...and i tell you what, if the tables were reversed then all you Neal fans would be baying for Plato's blood :rolleyes:

Agree completely, if it had been horse racing Neal would have been up before the stewards for not trying his best.

WT

[KILOHMUNNS]

Agree completely, if it had been horse racing Neal would have been up before the stewards for not trying his best.

WT

If it was horse racing Plato would have been disqualified for missing a jump!! (or chicane in this instance).

You seem to have missed the point, we wouldn't been having this debate if Plato hadn't missed the chicane the first time around as he would never have been near Gio/Chilton/Neal in the first place to have been blocked!

[Perdita_X]

Agree 100%, Kilohmunns!

...and what Matt said after race 2 was that he will race Jason in the way he would expect Jason to race against him in the same circumstances, and that is exactly what he did. He did not allow a person who had cheated to gain a passing position to prospour (which Jason would have done also), and once he had been passed he continued to race for position (again, Jason would have done this.)

I can't see the problem!!! Which (according to the rules of BTCC rather than any other random sport we can think of) is cheating? Allowing people to pass you, or purposely cutting a chicane to gain advantage?????

[SparkyKate]

Again, you are missing the point!! Re-read my last post and actually take it in, what happened between Plato and Neal was just racing, but the way Neal behaved to his current team was disgraceful...THATS what the majority of people have a problem with, and as far as i can see the horse racing metaphor had naff all to do with the chicanes, but with that behaviour, and yes it was a good metaphor as Kieron Fallon has just been banned for basically waving past his competitors!!!!!

[Perdita_X]

I guess we all just have to agree to disagree on this one! I feel exceptionally strongly that Matt did absolutely nothing wrong, while others feel exceptionally strongly that he did.

I think that there are some jumping on the 'Matt-Bashing' bandwagon, as this certainly seems to have become the norm this season, and I don't doubt that had Matt let Jason through no problem and the outcome had been different, it would be Matt's fault it was different for not racing Jason when he had cut a chicane! He really can't win no matter what he does in the eyes of some!!

Oh, and just one final thing...it really doesn't matter what happens in other sports...unless they have identical rules, in which case they are comparable. The simple fact is that Fallon was banned for breaking the rules of his sport. Matt has not done this and as such he will not be banned. Its that simple!!!

[Daniel]

I guess we all just have to agree to disagree on this one! I feel exceptionally strongly that Matt did absolutely nothing wrong, while others feel exceptionally strongly that he did.

I think that there are some jumping on the 'Matt-Bashing' bandwagon, as this certainly seems to have become the norm this season, and I don't doubt that had Matt let Jason through no problem and the outcome had been different, it would be Matt's fault it was different for not racing Jason when he had cut a chicane! He really can't win no matter what he does in the eyes of some!!

Oh, and just one final thing...it really doesn't matter what happens in other sports...unless they have identical rules, in which case they are comparable. The simple fact is that Fallon was banned for breaking the rules of his sport. Matt has not done this and as such he will not be banned. Its that simple!!!
As previously stated. He let through some people and not others. Those drivers he let through happen to be Vauxhall drivers and guess who he's driving for next year......

[Perdita_X]

Some people caught him fairly and others didn't. Simple as!

[SparkyKate]

Perdita i think you have ur Matt Neal blinkers on. I dont think it was disgusting because it was Neal that pulled it, i think its disgusting how anyone, from the front runners to the back, could behave so disgracefully towards their own current team. In any sort of racing, the competition is the competition and you do not wave them past you unless you have a problem. In this case Matt did not have a problem and therefore helped out his new team to the detriment of the team whose car he was driving at the time. This is disgusting and i would think that no matter who was behaving in such a way. Oh and as for Kieran Fallon, he did break the sporting code yes, thats why he was banned, but the code he broke was DO NOT WAVE PAST UR COMPETITORS TO FURTHER UR OWN MEANS and frankly the only reason it is written in stone with horse racing is to stop the betting spectators from being taken for a ride, as Fallon tried to do!! Fallon went against the owners, trainer and fans of the horses he was riding at that time in favour of someone elses. Explain to me how thats any different from what Neal did, other then the obvious point that he deals with horse power and not horses?

Its not Matt bashing, i would have the same opinion no matter who pulled this stunt.

[KILOHMUNNS]

Again, you are missing the point!! Re-read my last post and actually take it in, what happened between Plato and Neal was just racing, but the way Neal behaved to his current team was disgraceful...THATS what the majority of people have a problem with, and as far as i can see the horse racing metaphor had naff all to do with the chicanes, but with that behaviour, and yes it was a good metaphor as Kieron Fallon has just been banned for basically waving past his competitors!!!!!

I'm not sure where your metaphor is going, I thought Kieron was banned pending the investigation for "conspiracy to defraud" with regards to betting? :confused: If this is the case it's a lot less to so with sportsmanship but more to do with cheating! As you can see I'm not big into metaphors especially when they have no relevance to the subject in hand.

And as I have said before BOTH were at fault in that race, one for bad sportsmanship in a champiobship battle and the other for gaining an unfair advantage. I prefer to see things more fairly rather than pointing the finger at just one driver!

[SparkyKate]

Oh and noone said Matt should be banned like Fallon was, its just being stated that he behaved appallingly and yes you can draw parrallels between two sports if there is one to be found.

Having read ur post again i would like to state for the 150th time, although some Plato fans would have liked to see Neal let him thru like he had the Vauxhalls, some of us who don't like either of them and just want to watch fair and brilliant motorsport would just like to see Matt behave like a champion and not a sad little boy trying to score points at the detriment of his OWN CURRENT TEAM. I cant underline the point strongly enough that it isnt about the championship or Plato or any of that just the way he behaved to his team, basically a total lack of loyalty to a team that gave him 2 championships. Vauxhall had better keep an eye on him.

[Perdita_X]

Sparky, I wasn't specifically meaning you when I was talking about the Matt Bashing, but there are people on this forum who, if a driver were abducted by aliens and dumped at the back of the pack, they would find a way of blaming Matt!!!

You do however mention that you are not a Matt fan but not a Plato fan either and that you would feel this way regardless of who had been driving, so I would be interested to know your feelings on the Plato chicane incident that brought all of this about in the first place. Also, how can any of us know what arrangements TD may or may not have had with Vauxhall and/or Seat regarding the last race??? Its all well and good being disgusted with Matt, but without all the information, is it entirely fair?? Lets face it, Matt is not about to do anything to upset his own father, is he, and who knows what conversations went on between Matt and Steve before the race!!!

As for Kieron Fallon, its different because he was attempting to defraud and performing a potentially criminal act!!!! While I appreciate you feel strongly about that final race, I don't think you can accuse Matt of that!!!! :D

[KILOHMUNNS]

I agree with you totally, I did feel annoyed as a fan that Matt did what he did and we didn't have the climax we all wanted. But I do like fairness and if it wasn't for Plato cutting the chicane (which in my opinion also wans't fair) we wouldn't be having this debate as it would never have been an issue.

[SparkyKate]

I'm not sure where your metaphor is going, I thought Kieron was banned pending the investigation for "conspiracy to defraud" with regards to betting? :confused: If this is the case it's a lot less to so with sportsmanship but more to do with cheating! As you can see I'm not big into metaphors especially when they have no relevance to the subject in hand.

And as I have said before BOTH were at fault in that race, one for bad sportsmanship in a champiobship battle and the other for gaining an unfair advantage. I prefer to see things more fairly rather than pointing the finger at just one driver!

It was never my metaphor! I was defending someone else who used it as an example and i find it hard to believe that you don't understand the point. There is plenty of relevance and yes, Fallon was cheating, (and yes, is banned pending the 'conspiracy to defraud' investigation after defrauding betters and his own horses and training teams etc by working with other competitors to fix results) but as far as im concerned so was Matt. To the detriment of his team he helped out another one, this is often referred to as race fixing and/or cheating. I am not interested in hearing anymore about how Plato behaved badly too, because the race really isnt the issue. Its the behaviour towards his team, the race was the race, but that was just disloyalty. Team Halfords lost two places to their competitors because Neal waved them through. That is disgusting. End of.

[SparkyKate]

Sparky, I wasn't specifically meaning you when I was talking about the Matt Bashing, but there are people on this forum who, if a driver were abducted by aliens and dumped at the back of the pack, they would find a way of blaming Matt!!!

You do however mention that you are not a Matt fan but not a Plato fan either and that you would feel this way regardless of who had been driving, so I would be interested to know your feelings on the Plato chicane incident that brought all of this about in the first place. Also, how can any of us know what arrangements TD may or may not have had with Vauxhall and/or Seat regarding the last race??? Its all well and good being disgusted with Matt, but without all the information, is it entirely fair?? Lets face it, Matt is not about to do anything to upset his own father, is he!!!

As for Kieron Fallon, its different because he was attempting to defraud and performing a potentially criminal act!!!! While I appreciate you feel strongly about that final race, I don't think you can accuse Matt of that!!!! :D

If you take away the betting, it would be the same thing!

As for Plato, i think he got desperate. Honestly i felt sorry for the bloke and for Gio who despite bein all warm n glowy over his victory must be wondering if Plato was on top form what would have happened?? But no i just thought Plato was desperate, but it was a move that didnt work so i dont see why everyones getting so het up about it?? And following Matt over the chicane you cant blame him for, he knew he wouldnt get a penalty so why not? And to be honest id still be spitting feathers over the passing because it is all about team loyalty for me and like i said, no matter who did it they would have wound me up, especially if they happened to be a two times champion who for all intents and purposes shafted the team that gave him the championships by letting past their competitors. It was hardly a thanks was it?!

[Perdita_X]

But that's just it, Sparky, we don't know what conversations Matt had with Steve before the race, or the conversations Steve had with VX/Seat. Maybe it was Steve that said to Matt 'if your in this position, do this.' Maybe Matt said to Steve 'Dad, if I'm in this position, I'm going to do this.' and Steve said 'OK'. Maybe those conversations never took place and Matt decided to let people pass because he didn't want to be accused of anything by anyone, but took umbridge at allowing someone to pass him who had gained a passing position by cheating. Who can know!

[SparkyKate]

And if i was his Dad, id have kicked his arse for it! Yes i know, they probably had a deal, but that somehow makes it worse. There was no need for it, Plato would have been no trouble to Gio and it just bought the sport into disrepute. Racing should be racing, end of and if he'd even slightly put up a fight i wouldnt be so annoyed. It was the actually waving past a competitor, it goes against everything this sport is supposed to be about.

[KILOHMUNNS]

It was never my metaphor! I was defending someone else who used it as an example and i find it hard to believe that you don't understand the point. There is plenty of relevance and yes, Fallon was cheating, (and yes, is banned pending the 'conspiracy to defraud' investigation after defrauding betters and his own horses and training teams etc by working with other competitors to fix results) but as far as im concerned so was Matt. To the detriment of his team he helped out another one, this is often referred to as race fixing and/or cheating. I am not interested in hearing anymore about how Plato behaved badly too, because the race really isnt the issue. Its the behaviour towards his team, the race was the race, but that was just disloyalty. Team Halfords lost two places to their competitors because Neal waved them through. That is disgusting. End of.

Fair enough it wasn't yours and yes i can see where you were going with it!! ;)

I also agree that there was no need to let either driver through as I'm sure Chilton would have done his upmost to stop Plato getting through, Matt was disloyal or was it part of the condition of getting the Vauxhall drive and effectively having a fourth car on the circuit!! Who knows but I have enjoyed the debate so far!! ;)

[Perdita_X]

But if that's the deal the team had, then he was doing the exact opposite of why you are so mad with him, and was being loyal to the wishes of his team principle.

I agree that this kind of politics shouldn't come into it, but its never going to change. I just have a problem with people being so quick to dump on Matt when others actually broke the rules, and he was probably driving in accordance with the wishes of his team! Doesn't seem entirely fair that he is the one that cops it!

[SparkyKate]

Perhaps im just a purist, but i am sick of all racing now being about the politics, this farce with F1 is another prime example. Racing should be racing and being a champion should mean never giving up and never playing childish games like that, i just find it really pathetic and no matter the ifs buts and well we dont know what really happened's, i still kno that i watched what could have been an on the edge proper race turned into a farce by a 2 times champion waving past his competition, quite possibly with at least the knowledge of his own team, (after proclaiming before hand he would do no such thing) for absolutely no reason. Plato wasnt a threat, Neal didnt have a problem, it was all just game playing, and no matter what Neal and his father may or may not have discussed before hand, if i was a member of that team and watched him in his last race stick two fingers up at the sport and the team he was leaving, i would be livid, and as a fan i am.

[Perdita_X]

I appreciate that, but unfortunately the politics are always going to be there. Teams are always going to look, at the end of the season, at forming alliances at the end of the season with other teams. Particularly teams with nothing to race for. Its part of the sport. The only way round it would be for Alan Gow to implement a new rule that banned anything of that nature. Even then though it would be terribly difficult to police or prove.

Sadly, whatever the sport, there are always going to be politics, and it is always going to effect the outcome of a race, game or whatever. Its just the nature of the beast.

[SparkyKate]

Yes i know but politics are a part of racing, they shouldnt BE the racing if you get me. You are never going to convince me that the behavior of Matt Neal was just and what we should see in this sport and quite frankly we should keep pulling everyone who behaves in such a manner into line otherwise the whole sport will just end up as one pathetic political game after the other.

Question: Was there any sporting reason to wave past Gio and Chilton?
Answer: No

So what was the point? All it did, once again, was bring the sport into disrepute and the defending champions and new champions should not be involved in such disgusting behaviour.

[Daniel]

But that's just it, Sparky, we don't know what conversations Matt had with Steve before the race, or the conversations Steve had with VX/Seat. Maybe it was Steve that said to Matt 'if your in this position, do this.' Maybe Matt said to Steve 'Dad, if I'm in this position, I'm going to do this.' and Steve said 'OK'. Maybe those conversations never took place and Matt decided to let people pass because he didn't want to be accused of anything by anyone, but took umbridge at allowing someone to pass him who had gained a passing position by cheating. Who can know!
Yes but he probably didn't even know that Plato had cut the corner. Stop putting thoughts into his brain. Judge him for what we know he did.

[Hazell B]

I thought Kieron was banned pending the investigation for "conspiracy to defraud" with regards to betting?

Sorry to go back to this point, but everyone's confusing two totally different things here.

Fallon firstly cheated the sport, so the sport's ruling body banned him here in the UK. Then the police investigated, so he's now facing a separate charge of defrauding the public (who've backed for/against him). Same offense, two different charges and outcomes - one stops him riding and the other takes away his liberty.

Daniel said exactly what I wondered while reading this thread. How does anyone know Matt Neal waved others past because he thought Plato cut a corner? Who made Neal the steward and punisher in the race? After all, he's not in charge of waving others past if he has a vague idea somebody cut a corner - or am I missing Neal's new job title as Chief Steward? :rolleyes:

Anyone know exactly how much time Plato made up by cutting corners, by the way? I know Chilton and Giovanardi made up plenty by being waved past and don't for one second believe the two times would be similar.

Hell, I'm a Giovanardi fan, and have followed Vauxhall for years, and I hated to see them being waved by.

[Perdita_X]

Yes but he probably didn't even know that Plato had cut the corner. Stop putting thoughts into his brain. Judge him for what we know he did.

But how can we judge him when we honestly don't know what was happening behind the scenes. I'm not trying to put thoughts into his brain, I am just trying to point out that the reality of the whole situation is that there is probably a heck of a lot more to it all than meets the eye.

As I have said previously, we are never all going to agree on this one, so I think we have to agree to disagree. Lets start looking forward to next season and enjoy the 'silly season' rumour mill with a view to having a great, close, clean season next year. That is, after all, one thing I think we can all agree on wanting! :)

[SEATFreak]

But how can we judge him when we honestly don't know what was happening behind the scenes. I'm not trying to put thoughts into his brain, I am just trying to point out that the reality of the whole situation is that there is probably a heck of a lot more to it all than meets the eye.

As I have said previously, we are never all going to agree on this one, so I think we have to agree to disagree. Lets start looking forward to next season and enjoy the 'silly season' rumour mill with a view to having a great, close, clean season next year. That is, after all, one thing I think we can all agree on wanting! :)

A statement I would echo myself.

A lot of you guys are used to taking trips into the garages when you feel the need arise, but surely not when racing is underway. You couldn't I presume. Too much too important stuff happening to allow a fan in to see it all happen I would imagine. Other than having a caring and welcoming side and the fact they setup cars, their is little else I, for one, know about what a team does. Because other things happen that we cannot see.

But as you say Perdita_X it is over now. Time I think to just forget and focus on the plans for 2008. I am. I didn't like what Matt did anymore than Jase did. But I am focussing entrielly on what SEAT's plans for 2008 could be.