Gravel vs Asfalt

[Sulland]

Seen from an entertainment point of view, what do you like best to look at either being at the rally or via the TV - Gravel or Asfalt ?

[jonkka]

On event I definitely prefer tarmac, less dust to swallow and less stones flying to your face.

On telly it's more difficult because there is so many type of gravel. Fast and flowing gravel (Finland, NZ, GB) is the best but slow, hot, dusty and rocky (Cyprus et al) is the worst. Tarmac goes somewhere in between.

[pino]

Seen from an entertainment point of view, what do you like best to look at either being at the rally or via the TV - Gravel or Asfalt ?

Snow :p :

[Sulland]

Snow :p :


I agree, but as it stands now there is only one, maybe two snow-rallies a year.

So pls let me refrase: Do you prefer loose Snow/Gravel or hard (Asfalt) surface rallies ?

(Its hard not being a native speaker...! :fasttalk :)

[leno]

i like gravel rallies like mexico

[MikeD]

I prefer Tarmac, but that's because Tour de Corse is my favorite Rally. But the tarmac events in both Germany and Spain are not really among my favorite surfaces.

I also like the look of the cars in Tarmac spec. You can see all sponsors and the car is really low on the road. It looks more mean :)

[Tomi]

I prefer gravel and snow drivers events, not events like Cyprus, Turkey too much lottery.

[Sulland]

I think this has to do with what we are used to. Do you live in an area where Asfalt/Tarmac is the normal surface, you like that - if you come from a place where Gravel and snow/ice it the most common surface, you like that.

For me there is nothing more beautiful than seing a rally car in full slide around a fast corner with opposit lock, and the driver in full control, ala C McRae. And I find it boring to watch the tarmac events - for me I could watch a singleseater or tintop race instead.

But I think this is a difficult issue, and that your location - and what surface is common there is a diciding factor !

Do you agree or disagree ?

[A.F.F.]

Fast gravel like Finland, NZ and GB. :up:

[GigiGalliNo1]

Harder gravel events like Turkey, Greece, Rough rounds! Australia and NZ too and tarmac events like Corsica and Italy ;)

[sal]

I think tarmac events are great if they are the right type. Thinking San Remo here lots of hairpins, sections thru villages etc. However lots of sixth gear straights for a couple of miles like Cataluyna dosnt really cut it. Also some of the camera placings by ISC/North? dont really capture the true drama of a good tarmac event for tv.

[GigiGalliNo1]

more helicopter views from cliffs! :D

[Corny]

A snowy Monte is the best to watch on TV, specially when a certain Tommi Mäkinen is driving: p

[koko0703]

Gravel, especially one with water splash!!! I like mud covered rally cars. But on the other hand, most of the cars look better in tarmac specs, so I just like rallies :)

[SubaruNorway]

I like snow the best but tarmac can be realy exiting if you have some realy fast sections like on day1 broadcast through that vilage

The final round in the Norwegian championship was on tarmac and that was pretty exiting ;)
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/6c50ed59-ed4a-43f9-a902-99a40165ea8e.htm

[Alvaro_Rally]

Here in Spain most rallies are in tarmac surface so obviously I prefer that.

But I think that high speed gravel stages are also fine.

I miss the mixed events, like the old San Remo or Catalunya, with both tarmac and gravel stages.

[MJW]

I dont like the Mediteraean gravel rallies, Sardinia, Cyprus, Turkey etc. Acropolis is good and we should keep some tradition in the championship. Snow is my favourite, then fast gravel. NZ, Finland, & Wales, then tarmac, Corsica best, then an old San Remo I may be in the minority but I quite like Catalunya, but I think Deutschland is an awful rally. Monte is a gig gamble on grip.

[shurik]

Snow and fast gravel surfaces is my favorite..

[Magnus]

As many has posted allready: fast gravelrallies, and snow...
Slow gravelrallies are not much to hang in the x-mas tree... Tar is somewhere in the middle, a little bit higher when som nordic driver makes it good... :)

[Brother John]

I like gravel and snow. I hate tarmac rallys. For me tarmac was only fun years ago when it was mixed surface.
When I was young and want to see racing, I went till the circuit of Zolder, almost in my garden!

[Sulland]

When and why did the Mix surfaced rallies disappear from the calendar ?

[Mirek]

I think it is because modern cars are hard to rebuild from gravel to tarmac setup and vice versa. But as ERC Elpa showed it is not impossible when even S2000's and S1600's managed to go through both tarmac and gravel legs.

[janvanvurpa]

I think this has to do with what we are used to. Do you live in an area where Asfalt/Tarmac is the normal surface, you like that - if you come from a place where Gravel and snow/ice it the most common surface, you like that.

For me there is nothing more beautiful than seing a rally car in full slide around a fast corner with opposit lock, and the driver in full control, ala C McRae. And I find it boring to watch the tarmac events - for me I could watch a singleseater or tintop race instead.

But I think this is a difficult issue, and that your location - and what surface is common there is a diciding factor !

Do you agree or disagree ?

Hejsan Sulland,
there's an awfully big "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" factor too.

99.5% of all the stages in North America are gravel---or snow when the weather is helpful---and they're only tolerable to watch because the speeds are generally very high (cause the roads are built BIG, often cause they have to haul BIG trees out with BIG semi-trucks).

Watching National level stuff is better when the cars are on gravel cause you can see something happening---more guys getting sideways, gravel spitting, suspension working, guys making mistakes and catching them.
Asphalt cars are so stiff--generally--- they go round the corners and that's it, unless they go off.

Now WRC used to be really crazy exciting to watch----[b] prior to the dominance of World Rally Cars---both on asphalt and gravel, and there it was a bit more movement and "stuff happening" on gravel, so it was "more better".

Now the cars are on rails at the highest level, far less interest in watching themon either, although since I have done years of gravel, I still want to watch that.

So for me Gravel is best---snow with studs is real fave. Snow without is pointless and painful---No studs in North America.

[COD]

Maybe a poll on this one????

[Sulland]

Maybe a poll on this one????

YES, But I don't think I am allowed to make one ?!

[pino]

poll added :)

[gerrycrossey]

Definately tarmac and not the flowing stuff like spain! Wait until Rally Ireland and the fast bumpy narrow stuff. I would like to see rallies like the Safari back on the calendar there really was nothing like it!

[bf1_IRL]

Yup Irish Tar .. :D If you don't know what its like have a look at youtube or wait for RI.. It is nearly halfway between tar and gravel ;)
Can it be added to the poll?...

[duff]

Fast gravel like Finland, NZ and GB. :up:

Ditto!

[Maui J.]

Gravel is my first choice, as that's what the majority of events in NZ are.
It took me awhile to warm to tarmac rallies. For many years I related them to circuit racing. The main reason because we saw very little of European tarmac events on NZ television.
I loved seeing cars sideways on gravel, bouncing across rutted roads. Cars that looked the same as the one parked in the driveway. That's why the Safari and Acropolis were my favourite for years. Common road cars, well they looked like common road cars, being hammered to death.
Now with better TV coverage of the WRC I basically like them all. Fast gravel, rough gravel, tarmac and snow.
Basically you can't beat cars tearing through small country roads with stunning backdrops. No armco barriers, no sand traps, no tyre walls, no grandstands, no 50 laps of the same thing. Basically on the roads that you and I drive on every other day, but a lot bloody faster!

[pino]

I voted for snow :D but I also love both the fast gravel in Finland, and the amazing, and unique tarmac of Sanremo :up:

[pantealex]

Fast gravel like Finland, NZ and GB. :up:

Yes,please!

[Roy]

The tarmac vineyard roads in Germany are very narrow nice roads. I visit it in 2004, 2005 and 2007. In 2006 I was at the sideline of Sardengna. The sand in my face on al my clothes, I like it ;)

Fast cars on gravel is real rallye. Sand, stones in the air. I like that view. The strong cars takles the difficult roads. I voted for gravel.
http://www.worldrallypics.com/fotoweb/FWbin/download.dll/File/0C7A55E9A10D64C8D8E292DF6DD76EECDC2D61D1986BFDEBDF ABC5686326F1FC74543219F37B95A910851DF7CF8F08FFEF8E 125286EBE150C592484DCAA3176C569E4737C9017604DACA76 E61C3842F9B3697A3EBE6E42939919F82C9425DFFB/05386.jpg

Snow rally gives also some nice pics.
http://www.worldrallypics.com/fotoweb/FWbin/download.dll/File/0C7A55E9A10D64C8D8E292DF6DD76EECDC2D61D1986BFDEBDF ABC5686326F1FC74543219F37B95A910851DF7CF8F08FFEF8E 125286EBE150C282DC438FF4C882B4E5030926C3CD9ADACA76 E61C3842F9B3697A3EBE6E42939919F82C9425DFFB/06957.jpg

[Maui J.]

The tarmac vineyard roads in Germany are very narrow nice roads. I visit it in 2004, 2005 and 2007. In 2006 I was at the sideline of Sardengna. The sand in my face on al my clothes, I like it ;)

Fast cars on gravel is real rallye. Sand, stones in the air. I like that view. The strong cars takles the difficult roads. I voted for gravel.
http://www.worldrallypics.com/fotoweb/FWbin/download.dll/File/0C7A55E9A10D64C8D8E292DF6DD76EECDC2D61D1986BFDEBDF ABC5686326F1FC74543219F37B95A910851DF7CF8F08FFEF8E 125286EBE150C592484DCAA3176C569E4737C9017604DACA76 E61C3842F9B3697A3EBE6E42939919F82C9425DFFB/05386.jpg

Snow rally gives also some nice pics.
http://www.worldrallypics.com/fotoweb/FWbin/download.dll/File/0C7A55E9A10D64C8D8E292DF6DD76EECDC2D61D1986BFDEBDF ABC5686326F1FC74543219F37B95A910851DF7CF8F08FFEF8E 125286EBE150C282DC438FF4C882B4E5030926C3CD9ADACA76 E61C3842F9B3697A3EBE6E42939919F82C9425DFFB/06957.jpg

Great pics!

[J4MIE]

To watch on TV - anything!!
To spectate at an event - snow!! :D

[Jordib]

For me fast gravel and snow rallys are the best. Tarmac rallys are so boring nowadays, the rallycars goes like a train over the rails, like a circuit race. Only when the cars cut the corners putting gravel to the road can be spectacular.

[Josti]

To be honest, I like any underground. I've seen spectaculair sights on any surface.

I've only been to one real snow rally so far, and that was quite the experience I have to say. Our national rally's are run on tarmac, mostly mixed with gravel paths, so a mixed surface IMO is the best, cause you have two options to look at.

For WRC, nowadays tarmac rally's aren't that spectaculair anymore. Like said before, the cars go on it like trains. Corsica used to be one of my favorites, though seeing it on tv, I kind of lost interest. I remember it as twisty, narrow, bumpy roads on cliffs, threw little villages, but I hardly saw anything of that (ok, it's Eurosport). Spain does nothing for me, Monte Carlo has to have snow, Sanremo was great, though I prefer the old Sanremo format, so mixed surface for that matter. Germany is unique, and I expect the same from Ireland.

As for gravel, defenitly the loose surface events like Finland or New Zealand. Though, Safari can't be hated by rallyfans.

But since this is a WRC topic, I vote for gravel.

[N]

Before I liked tarmac more cause the cars look nice, but now, that I've spent a lot of time driving on gravel, I realized that a real rally driver is one who can handle gravel, I'm not saying that tarmac is easy, but it takes some balls to push a car to 200kph on a gravel straight.

Also, I'd like to say one more thing, I think rally Cyprus has been labeled wrongly by the media as a hot, car breaker rally. First of all, it's not that hot, secondly, the roads aren't that bad, I've driven all of the roads used in the rally this and last year with a normal road car with no problems and lastly, the fact that it's twisty separates the experts from the amateurs, cause you really need to have a good technique to drive those corners at highest speed possible. I went to the rally this weekend and I can say that it was awesome, I've seen everything; fast sections, jumps, drifting through corners, hairpins, watersplash, bit of tarmac - everything I could want from a rally and it was a real adrenaline rush watching the rally live. Seeing it on TV doesn't do it justice, the coverage last year was nowhere near as good as it could have been.

[Sulland]

1. Snow
2. Gravel
3. Tarmac

Reason: Rallycars are supposed to slide, and todays tarmac-cars are too advanced, so they go as on rails. Maybe mixed surface rallies are a good way to go, since then you have to do compromizes in the set-up, and boom -- more entertaining rallies !!

[Mirek]

I like tarmac like this: http://www.mediasport.cz/multimedia/videa/rally-cz/loix_BA_RZ11.wmv :D

But the most spectacular rally for me is New Zealand...

[jonas_mcrae]

Gravel, now that Ive been to a real tarmac event (Spain 07) I know it is not for me, of course it is fun and the best part is when someone makes a mistake o takes a corner too fast or even better someone uses the hand break, but with out that its nothing more than circuit racing in closed roads. Finland is 1000 times better!

Although ive seen some vids from Ireland and other places like the Czech Republic and they look quite exiting!

[TKM]

Gravel is what rallying is about. Tarmac should simply be for getting there.

[leno]

Gravel is what rallying is about. Tarmac should simply be for getting there.

i agree :D :s pin: :up:

[Donney]

I like tarmac rallies because the cars look great and they are really fast. I agree it was much more spectacular years ago when sliding was almost mandatory but that's not the tarmac to blame. Besides I drive everyday on tarmac roads and relate easier to it than to gravel.

But given the type of cars and technology we have nowadays compact gravel like Finland, New Zealand or Japan are much more entertaining to watch.

[AndyRAC]

What about Mixed-Surface events? San Remo,etc

Now they were proper events....do the Tarmac experts stay ahead, or can the Gravel experts take enough time back?? Great stuff...

[jparker]

Well, here in Canada we don't have WRC event, and there is no TV coverage of WRC at all. Canadian rally championship is practically unreachable, only 6 events, and only one within 200km from where I live, not to mention that tarmac rally is something unknown in Ontario. In other words, I don't watch rally anymore (live or TV), at all. Sad really. So, tarmac or gravel, it doesn't matter. Good thing this forum, WRR, and live splits does exist :)

[Camelopard]

I've only been to one tarmac event (Germany 2005) and I'm afraid that I won't be going to any more. IMO the atmosphere does not compare to gravel events that I have been to, like Finland, New Zealand or the Australian event in Perth. Only benefit of tarmac rallies is that you don't get covered in dust!

Although I could be tempted to go to a mixed surface rally.

I was hoping to go to Sweden and Norway to see a snow rally but probably won't as it is a lot of money to get there and I think the WRC is going to be a one horse race.

[Sulland]

poll added :)

Since Mixed Surface (Gravel/Tarmac) has come up here, maybe that should be added to the poll to give a complete picture !!

[jparker]

Since Mixed Surface (Gravel/Tarmac) has come up here, maybe that should be added to the poll to give a complete picture !!
I don't find my choice either, which would be all surfaces
Fast hairpins are great, doesn't matter gravel or tarmac :D

[gerrycrossey]

I know its not extactly mixed surface but the amount of dust in the video at the corners shows the amount of gravel on what would be considered a fairly smooth bumpy fast stage here in Ireland, also note the grass in the middle of the road!! If its wet which it usually is then that can be great fun!! :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS2MAjl-iKQ

[Josti]

Since Mixed Surface (Gravel/Tarmac) has come up here, maybe that should be added to the poll to give a complete picture !!

Shame I already voted, nothing beats mixed surface :)

[Erki]

I like them all. They just better be fast! :burnout:

[Koppomsbo]

Ive would like a snow rally with the weather i australia for fans to sit and relax in :)

[pino]

If anyone wish to change his vote, just let me know it :)

[chrisc]

I know its not extactly mixed surface but the amount of dust in the video at the corners shows the amount of gravel on what would be considered a fairly smooth bumpy fast stage here in Ireland, also note the grass in the middle of the road!! If its wet which it usually is then that can be great fun!! :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS2MAjl-iKQ



Compare that to the tar in Spain where it is like a race track
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIi6zqf7efU
irish tar wins hands down

[Langdale Forest]

Gravel because the cars are sliding more and throwing up dust and stones, that does not happen on tarmac.

[gerrycrossey]

Compare that to the tar in Spain where it is like a race track
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIi6zqf7efU
irish tar wins hands down

Good comparison lad!

[ShiftingGears]

I like them all. They just better be fast! :burnout:

:up:

[elvis]

i prefer tarmac (french i am ?) ... but i think mixed surface like san remo some years ago are the best !

[jparker]

I like them all. They just better be fast! :burnout:

Me too, but how did you vote? There is no such an option in the damn poll.

[Zico]

Could only choose one and so I voted Gravel.. love fast flowing stages like NZ, GB and Finland but like snow equally as much, tarmac is a bit boring to watch unless the cars are RWD.. then its quite good. ;)

[Erki]

I haven't voted at all yet. :laugh:

[c4]

Rally Ireland will be unique and will change some perceptions about tarmac rallying.Think 1000 Lakes on tarmac.

[SubaruNorway]

Rally Ireland will be unique and will change some perceptions about tarmac rallying.Think 1000 Lakes on tarmac.

If the tv broadcast will be as good as the national one it's gona be awsome :D

[pino]

Looking at the poll, the calender should have 5 snow-events and 1 tarmac-event only (Sanremo) :up: :p :

[c4]

If the tv broadcast will be as good as the national one it's gona be awsome :D


National broadcaster RTE to have 5 or 6 hours live coverage + nightly reports.Local motorsports programme RPM will have two programmes,one a preview,focusing on Irish crews particularly Donnelly.RPM available on Motors TV.

As I have previously said this rally will come across as spectacular for a tarmac event.Also check out SSS 1 Parliament buildings, will be reminiscent of old RAC stately home stages.

[M5]

Now FIA is giving a opening to mixed surface rallies again, but it has to be one surface during one day, nad then you can switch. Probabaly to give the teams the time they need to rebuild from tarmac to gravel suspension - but then some of the point is gone in my opinion !

The charm is to see the drivers drive a compromize and master that !

That shows a good driver, if you are able to do that !

[Sulland]

Now we are at almost 100 votes, but we need more to see the real picture. So people - have your say !

But the tendency so far is that the two loose surfaces are smashing tarmac aprox 75/ 25 - is this reflected on the calendar for 08 and 09, or is tarmac overrepresented ?

[kobefly]

Gravel, especially one with water splash!!! I like mud covered rally cars. But on the other hand, most of the cars look better in tarmac specs, so I just like rallies :) Then you should make a long trip to Argentina next year (the shame is, only a few WRC get here).
No doubt tarmac specs cars look better but I like the action in gravel best.

[Priorat]

I voted for snow events. It is fast, sideways, great scenary and no dust. ( It is even fun to be smashed by the snow from the cars)

[M5]

So for a 10 events calendar according to todays votes we should have
5 Gravel (46%)
2 Snow (23%)
2 Tarmac/Asfalt (23%)
and 1 Mixed surace (8%)

This is a very "ish" calculation

the 2008 calendar has 15 events, so then it shoud be (again ish)

8 Gravel
3 Snow
3 Tarmac
1 Mixed

When we then take the real (proposed) 2008 calendar we get:
9 Gravel
1 snow
5 Tarmac

Hmmm, Maybe FIA need to have a look at our survey before they decide 2009..... ;)

[jso1985]

but snow rallyes are exciting partly due that it's something that happens only once or twice a year.

[Josti]

Yes, I wouldn't prefer more than two snow rallies either. Though an RAC with some snow is always welcome :)